1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:05,519 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: This is such an oddity that a parent would use 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 2: a public arena to distract their abduction. 4 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 5 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 6 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 8 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 9 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 12 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 13 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: publish details behind their stories. This is one of the 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: most shocking unsolved missing child cases in the world. A 15 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: seven year old boy named kyn Horman went missing in 16 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: twenty ten in Portland, Oregon, and he's never been found. 17 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: The last person to see him was his stepmother. Author 18 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: Rebecca Morris details Kyene's story and the mystery of his 19 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: disappearance in her book Boy Missing The Search for Kyne Horman. 20 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: Where does it make sense for you to start. 21 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: Well, I'm a great believer in going way back, so 22 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: when I write a book like this, I've done three 23 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 2: books about missing people, and I didn't know I was 24 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: going to become kind of an expert at that, but 25 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: three of my nine books are about missing people. And 26 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: I go way back so that I know the childhoods 27 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: of all these parents and step parents involved. I know 28 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: about the earlier traffic tickets and high school antics of 29 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: the person that we think took Kiren. I learn as 30 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: much as I can, and you know, and I like 31 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: to quote Agatha Christie. Actually she said, the crime is 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: the end of the story. You just have to find 33 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: out what came before and what led to this, What 34 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: was the community that the crime happened in, you know? 35 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: And this did, as she said, it affected so many 36 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: people I've never seen. There's still sixty thousand people on 37 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 2: Facebook who follow this regularly. That's a lot now. Ten 38 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: years ago there were like half a million. But it's 39 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: still the community's very active. We don't know what the 40 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: Sheriff's office is doing, and I don't know if Kiren's mother, Desiree, 41 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: even knows the searches ended years ago. She's helped gather 42 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: volunteers to do you know, trained volunteers and searching to 43 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: do other searches. But it's pretty much a stand still. 44 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: And because of what we'll talk about it, it's a 45 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: no body case when the body has not been found, 46 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: prosecutors delay bringing charges because they believe that the odds 47 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: of getting a successful conviction are greater if there's a body. Certainly, 48 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: bodies do give you evidence, but I found an expert 49 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: who says that's not necessarily the case. No body's cases 50 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: can be successfully prosecuted. 51 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: And we've seen that particularly the last twenty or thirty years. 52 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: Where you do see prosecutors, they have to be very 53 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: confident about the evidence. I think what and correct me 54 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: if you think I'm wrong here. I feel like though, 55 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: the no body cases that I've read about have been 56 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: people who have very well documented lives. They have credit cards, 57 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: they have child custody, they have you know, parents that 58 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: they talk to every day, they have cell phone records. 59 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: There's all kinds of a paper trail, and with a boy, 60 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: there probably isn't much of a paper trail. Excep the 61 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: last person who had real contact with him. 62 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's both an advantage and disadvantage. You're right, 63 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: a seven year old doesn't have a paper trail, doesn't 64 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: say where he stopped to get gas or charges he 65 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: made on his credit card. But I think technology, and 66 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 2: as far as I know, Muloma County in Portland is 67 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: still looking at the suspect's phone and computer. I mean 68 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: I read regularly that with new technology they're finding information 69 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: they didn't have a few years ago. So I just 70 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: have this suspicion. Only recently is my confidence back on 71 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: this case that they will find something on a phone 72 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: or a computer that will give them some insight to 73 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: where he was left. 74 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: Well, when you talk about having to go far back, 75 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: like Agatha Christie, how far back are we talking in 76 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: this case? Did you manage to go involving the parents 77 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: in Kiren and his life? 78 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: Well, the impetus for going back is that the best 79 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: suspect in this case, the only person of interest in 80 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: this case, had had some early driving arrests, and there 81 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 2: were some stories about setting fire to her parents house 82 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: when she was a teenager, and a boyfriend who said 83 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: that she had somebody approach him with a gun. So 84 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 2: trying to track down rumors are very hard. If there 85 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: was no arrest if there's no you know, no law 86 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: a case with no law enforcement, that's that's pretty hard. 87 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: But I tried to especially track down what her history was. 88 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: We're talking about a lot of marriages, a lot of divorces, 89 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: a lot of step kids, and sometimes living here, sometimes 90 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: living there, and that's you know, not unusual in America. 91 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: You know, it's almost like it's a character in this story. 92 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: Where were they, what were they doing? Who did the 93 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: children live with this week? And you know, there were 94 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: reasons that Chyen lived part of the time with his mother, 95 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: you know, his birth mother, and part of the time 96 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: with his father and stepmother because of Desiree Jung's health 97 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: issues in the past, so he was back and forth 98 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: the whole length of the state of Oregon. You know, 99 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: his birth mother and stepfather lived in southern Oregon, his 100 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: father and stepmother lived in northern Oregon. So there was 101 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: a lot of shuffling around and also who had you know, 102 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: when who had been married, who'd had an affair with who, 103 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 2: And you know, it was messy, but a lot of 104 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 2: people's lives get messy. You know, Desiree had an older son, 105 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: a teenage son who lived with his father and stepmother, 106 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: different father. But you know, you can't do a book 107 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: like this without the help of a family. I'm a 108 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 2: native Oregonian. I spent three chunks of my career in 109 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: broadcasting print in Portland. I know Portland, I know Oregon, 110 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 2: and I had been watching this case for a long 111 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: time since he went missing, and I think other authors 112 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: do that. It's not always a book, right when somebody 113 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: goes missing, you kind of have to know what's going 114 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: to happen. And I felt, after watching this for ten 115 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: years that it was time to do a book. Even 116 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: if he was not found, it was time to do 117 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: a book. So I wrote to Desiree an old fashioned 118 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: letter I mailed, and I told her about winning the 119 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: trust of other families and other books I'd done. And 120 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: she texted me right away and said I'd been praying 121 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: the right author would come along. So that was an enormous, 122 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: enormous thing, because you to have her confidence and trust 123 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: to visit her in Medford, Oregon, to meet her parents, 124 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: to meet her siblings, to meet her other son, to 125 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: you know, hang out, to see her when she would 126 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: fly through Seattle or something. It was a couple of 127 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: years of a lot of contact and you know, being 128 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: in Kirene's bedroom where things had not been touched for 129 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: ten years, and then following her as she began to 130 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: change his bedroom. You know, it took a lot of years, 131 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: but the changes she made. So the challenge is always 132 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: for an author. I'm an observer. I get to know them, 133 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: the family, but I need to also be open to 134 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: other conversations about his disappearance. 135 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: Now, did Desiree and Kiren's father, Kane, did they have 136 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: a good relationship for any of their marriage? When they 137 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: did get married. 138 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: They seem to have a good relationship. The first couple 139 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: of years he told her he didn't want children. Oh 140 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: and she already had her other son, but she got pregnant. 141 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: And the story she told me is that he initially 142 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: said I don't want children, I'll sign over all my 143 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: rights to you, and then he spoke with his mother 144 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: and she changed his mind. So he said he would 145 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: be you know, a husband and father. But it was 146 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: while they were still married that he met Terry Horman 147 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: and began to have a relationship with her, so you know, 148 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 2: there was some cheating going on. But then then Desiree 149 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: had some health issues. Cain said he would take kyn. 150 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: This is when when Chiren is quite young, take Kiren 151 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: indefinitely and then he wouldn't give it back. So they 152 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: worked out a compromise where half of the weekends he 153 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: was in Medford and half he was in Portland, and 154 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: vacations he would be in Medford with Desiree. But I 155 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: think she never quite forgave herself for losing that, you know, 156 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: one hundred percent custody. 157 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: Let's talk about these main characters, because now we have four, right, 158 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: we have Terry, we have Desiree, We've got Caine, who 159 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: is Karen's father, and then of course Kien himself. You 160 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: know he's seven when he disappears. Let's start with Kiren. 161 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: What do you know about his personality? What kind of 162 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: kid you've been in his room? What kind of kid 163 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: was he up until he disappeared? Well, you can look 164 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: at a photo, any photo. 165 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: He looks happy, he's happy, and he's such a cute child. 166 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 2: I mean, you know he wears glasses from the age 167 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: I think of two or so, and he's just grinning. 168 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 2: He looks very happy. I know he liked frogs, he 169 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: liked baseball, he loved fishing. You know, the fifth character 170 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: in This is Tony Young, who's Desiree's husband, who's a cop, 171 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: a detective, and Menfred Oregan, So that is very interesting. 172 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 2: He is an inside observer of how the search goes 173 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: and the investigation and the people they're giving multiple polygraphs to. 174 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: And Tony is a fabulous source. But Kyron, you know, 175 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: they had a good relationship with his mother and with 176 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: his stepfather. They went camping a lot, they went fishing 177 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: a lot. He had this older half brother that he adored, 178 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: and I think that was Kyen at his happiest is 179 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: when he's with his mother and father and that family, 180 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 2: because you know, he just always comes first when he's 181 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: in Portland with his father and stepmother. And then they 182 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: had a baby. There was an infant who would have 183 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 2: been born about a year and a half before Kyron 184 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: went missing, you know, And I've been thinking about this 185 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: a lot recently. Kyen told his mother that his stepmother 186 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: and her older son had been setting him up and 187 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: scaring him and taking him up to the woods. And 188 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: the one thing Kyen was most afraid of, as Rae says, 189 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 2: was being lost. Isn't that just heartbreaking? Yeah, his greatest 190 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: fear is being lost and they would take him, this 191 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: older son of his stip mood, take him out to 192 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 2: the woods, or because Caine's house was kind of in 193 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: a woody area and he'd leave him there or make 194 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: him go into a shit And you know, Desiree thought 195 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: they were deliberately scaring Kyne from being torn back and 196 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: forth between families. You know, he was a pretty well 197 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: adjusted kid. 198 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: What's your impression of Cain as a father? I mean, 199 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: I know we said initially he didn't want kids, and 200 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: then it turns into basically full time custody. What was 201 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: he like? Did you get the impression that he was 202 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: a patient father, a kind father, aside from his relationship 203 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: with Terry and her attitude toward Kyen. What was Cain like? 204 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: Well? I spoke with Cain once. He didn't want to 205 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 2: be included in the book. But from everything, of course, 206 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: I've researched everything I can about him. He was I 207 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: think a better boyfriend than a husband. He created, you know, 208 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: opportunities for Kyen, praised him when it was important. I 209 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: don't think that he knew what was going on in 210 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: that house. I don't think he knew about Terry and 211 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: her son scaring Kyen. Then they had this, you know, 212 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: a baby girl. I think Caine avoided kind of looking 213 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: at what was going on. Desiree would contact him or 214 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: email him about, you know, things that Kyen was saying, 215 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: and of course he was kind of in a spot 216 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: in the in the middle of things. He didn't want children, 217 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 2: but then he and he and Terry had this infant girl. 218 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: I think he left the child raising a lot of 219 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: it to the women, and he worked at Intel and 220 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: was busy. Since Kyen's disappeared. He has his own kind 221 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: of fundraising event every fall, which is like an old 222 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: car show. I'm not sure how he uses donations, but 223 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: I know Desiree buys posters, has posters made bys you 224 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: know bracelets. You know. Kin is a little bit of 225 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: an unknown entity in this. I'll tell you he was 226 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: pretty darn surprised to find out who he was married to. 227 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: As far as Kyrin and stepmother. 228 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: Tell me about Terry, they meet and he is still 229 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: married to Desiree. It sounds like, and they have an 230 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: affair and then there's a divorce and then they become married. 231 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: What did you learn about Terry that is really relevant 232 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: I think to this case. Sort of as this unfolds 233 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: for the audience here. 234 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: Well, Carrie Horman Kin was her third marriage. She's now 235 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: remarried in California and married for the fourth time. She 236 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: grew up in Roseberg as the only child adopted child 237 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 2: of parents that were teachers, and one of the stories 238 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: that's followed her around is that she deliberately set a 239 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: fire once in her parents' house. I don't know. I 240 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: never found any way to either confirm that or deny that. 241 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: And she, you know, I think had some behavior up 242 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: and downs. I think she had a problem with alcohol 243 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: as a young adult. She was stopped for driving drunk 244 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: with her older son in the back seat when he 245 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: was young, and that's very serious to be driving drunk 246 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: with a child in the car. So she lost her 247 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: license for a year. And I think that's before she 248 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: married Kine. But there are always these little little incidents. 249 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: The women who run the Facebook page and the organization 250 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: keep an eye on her in California. But it made 251 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: news when she moved to California after the divorce. She 252 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: was arrested for threatening somebody with a knife. She stole 253 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: a roommate's gun and was carrying it when they found her. 254 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: I just keep thinking one of these issues going to 255 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: do something else that will really shed some light. You know, 256 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: if people have a history of doing crazy or illegal things, 257 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: they don't stop it suddenly. 258 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: Is there a CPS, A CPS ever involved before all 259 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: this stuff happens. 260 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: No, okay, And that's of course one of the things 261 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: that Portland Sheriff's Office was starting from scratch. They didn't 262 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: know who these people were. You know, sometimes they've been 263 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: called to the home, or police have been called to 264 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: a home with domestic violence, or CPS had been involved, 265 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: and none of that had happened here. 266 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: Now I know that Desiree struggled with I think it 267 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: was kidney issues. Did you have a lot of opportunities 268 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: to see Terry in person, and if so, what is 269 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: the sense you got of their interactions between the two 270 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: of them, because they obviously have a very troubled history. 271 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: All around Cain. 272 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: They would see each other if she was picking up 273 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: or deliver bring Kiren. And one time I just was 274 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: looking at the book again last night, and there was 275 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: an incident when Cain and Terry drive Kiraen to Medford 276 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 2: and it's Mother's Day or something, and they're dropping him 277 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 2: at Desiree's mother's house and our mother invites them to 278 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: stay for brunch and they do okay, And it's Terry 279 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: who jumps up when Kien needs to go down the 280 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 2: hall to the bathroom, and so I think it's you know, 281 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 2: a lot of couples do that. They just you do 282 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: what you have to do, m m, you know, for 283 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: the children's sake, and get past that holiday. They didn't 284 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: meet up a lot for an event for Kirn. They 285 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: pick and choose what was Desiree going to go to? 286 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: What Cain and Terry going to go to? 287 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: So everything seems to be okay. We know that Terry 288 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: has a troubled history with little bits and pieces of 289 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: criminal activity, but clearly between these four people, between Desray 290 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: and her husband the detective, and then Cain and Terry 291 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: seems sort of the most un stable or the most mysterious. 292 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: But right now, is before his disappearance, is sort of 293 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: the only grievance against Terry that she and her older 294 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: son are scaring Kiren. Is there anything else that gets flagged? 295 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: Yes, there are some other things that Desiree's concerned about. 296 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: Because when Kiren, you know, goes to Medford for the 297 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 2: weekend or summer. He tells his mother, Desiree about other things, 298 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 2: like there's some kind of color system that Terry uses 299 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: to discipline him by, just something of her own kind 300 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 2: of device. There are some other things that Chiren shares 301 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 2: with Desiree that Terry is doing. I never read or 302 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: was told that she struck him or hit him, but 303 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 2: he would be kind of mind games. I'd say, I'd 304 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: classify it as mind games. So did get shared, and 305 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 2: then of course Desiree would talk to Caine about it, 306 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 2: And we don't know what his discussions were with Terry 307 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: about the mind games, or maybe he didn't believe it, 308 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: maybe he did. 309 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: Did you think that Cain and Terry seemed to have 310 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: a pretty good relationship and once they got married, it 311 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like there were any sort of police reports 312 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: or you know, reports of domestic violence incidences or anything. 313 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 1: They seemed to have an okay, stable relationship. 314 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know that I would say that, because 315 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: things came out when the disappearance of Kyraen was being investigated, 316 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: including things about Terry. So this is documented by the 317 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: Sheriff's office that just a few months before Kiren disappeared, 318 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 2: Terrie asked somebody who was working on their lawn if 319 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: he knew how she could hire a hitman. Oh, and 320 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 2: she apparently had plans to have Cain killed. 321 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: She went to somebody who was cutting her yard and said, 322 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: can you help me kill my husband? 323 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 2: Yes? 324 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: Yes, Wow. 325 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: Police believed it so much that they put a wire 326 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: on the guy and had him, you know, go back 327 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 2: and approached Herry and hoped that she would bring it 328 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 2: up again. And you know, she wasn't done. She didn't 329 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: ask again, but you know, it's part of the police case. 330 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 2: In fact, they took it so seriously that they told 331 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: Cain that day, we believe that Carry was going to 332 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 2: have you killed. He and the infant daughter got out 333 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 2: of there. Well, they went and they checked into a 334 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: hotel down downtown. The police arranged for them and got 335 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: them out of the house because they were taking it 336 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: seriously that they didn't know what Carry was capable of. 337 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: And I believe within minutester hours, Caine was filing for divorce, 338 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: finally filing for custody of the kids. And he never 339 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: went back to his house as long as she was there. 340 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: So she tried to do this after Kyene disappeared, before 341 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: Oh Okay, So when did the police tell Caine. 342 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: It was during the investigation into where's Kiren? The groundskeeper 343 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: came to police and said, this woman talked to me 344 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: about this. So Kirene's missing and Kane grabs the baby 345 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: and they get out of the house. 346 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: Is there some sort of not inciting incident for this 347 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: case doesn't seem right, But is it just a normal 348 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: day when he has taken to school for this science fair. 349 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: Well, Carrie planned this and it was premeditated because she 350 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: planned today when as we were talking about, there were 351 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: three or four hundred extra people at the school. There'd 352 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: be no security, the doors would be wide open. She 353 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: knew it was going to be an unusual day at 354 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: the school, and she also planned She told the school 355 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: in Kirene's teacher that he had a doctor appointment, so 356 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 2: she took him to school in time to look at 357 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 2: all the science exhibits. They left his jacket and backpack 358 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: in his classroom. The teacher believed he had a doctor's appointment. 359 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: She says she stood and waved at Kyroen as he 360 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: entered his classroom and never saw him again. What wasn't 361 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: said for a few weeks after Kien went missing. Is 362 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 2: that there were eyewitnesses that saw her leave the school 363 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 2: with him. So his bus driver who knew him well, 364 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: and a student and a grandmother saw her leave with him, 365 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: so there were eyewitnesses. The other way that she had 366 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: set this up is she had a little red sports 367 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 2: car that she'd gotten Cain to buy her. Well, that's 368 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: a rather noticeable obvious thing. She told Cain that morning 369 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: she needed his white truck that she needed to put 370 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 2: the science exhibit in it later. But the science exhibits 371 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 2: weren't going home that day. There was another school and 372 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 2: they were going to be staying at the school. But 373 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: she got Caine's white truck pickup open bit in the back, 374 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 2: a back seat that has two children's car seats, and 375 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 2: that she just said she needed that that day. Well, 376 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: they found, of course a million white pickup trucks in 377 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: north Portland, you know when they went looking for where 378 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: was hers that day? So you know, there's the truck 379 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: and not the red car. There's taking his photo in 380 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: front of his red frog exhibit. She says she waved 381 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: to him. Eyewitnesses see her leave with him, and then 382 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: she is off the grid for a few hours and 383 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: she lies to the police about where she's been. They 384 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: know that she stopped at two fred Meers, which are 385 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: a drug store chains in Portland, and she was looking 386 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 2: for cold medicine, she said, for the baby. And they 387 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: have cameras of her in the in the stores and 388 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: she buys something. And you know, my theory is she 389 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 2: sedated Kyen gave them both, probably gave this gold medicine 390 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 2: to both the baby and Kiren. And then her phone 391 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 2: is turned off and she is at least two and 392 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: a half hours off the grid. She has a good 393 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: friend whose name is Dede Spicer, who works at a 394 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 2: nursery ape not the children's kind, of the other kind. Yeah, 395 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: not far from the school where Kiren goes to school, 396 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 2: near the road also where Cain and Terry live. We 397 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 2: believe she picks up Dedi and has her with her 398 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 2: in the pickup. When the next couple of hours happened, 399 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 2: the owner of the nursery where Dedie worked said they 400 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 2: always had lunch together and they looked for her, you know, 401 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: all afternoon. They couldn't find her. Her car was there, 402 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 2: but they couldn't find Dede. DP says she was just 403 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 2: working in some obscure part of the nursery, but it's 404 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 2: thought that Terry picked her up and so she was 405 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 2: maybe she was along to take care of the baby 406 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: with whatever was going to happen. There were some sightings, 407 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: you know, supposedly of Terry in her red sports car 408 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: driving one of the back roads in that area the 409 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: week before, standing around looking kind of at the woods. 410 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: So a couple of hours pass, detti Is dropped back 411 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: at the nursery says she was there all the time. 412 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: I was wondering about the truck. There's no GPS on 413 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: the truck at all that they're able to trace. 414 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 2: No, there's no GPS on the truck. Actually, her phone 415 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: pinged on a cell phone tower. So this area which 416 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: is just north of Portland, and but it's in court, 417 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: it's still in the county, but it's not the city 418 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: of Portland. But it pinged on a tower near an 419 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 2: area called Sawvi Island. So we're talking hundreds and hundreds 420 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: of thousands of woods and then saw The Island which 421 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: has ponds and is a wetland. It's a kind of 422 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: across the road from the woods work Kirroen. But she 423 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: might have driven onto this island where all these ponds are, 424 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: so they did drag some of these waters to look 425 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 2: for Kien. It's actually one of the things I learned 426 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: knowing this is that it's much harder to find a 427 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: body in water than it is on land. 428 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, because this is an important point. 429 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: Do you at this point you believe, I mean, it 430 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: sounds like you absolutely believe that Terry is responsible for 431 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: Kyroen's disappearance, and it sounds like. 432 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: Murder, it does. She also, after wherever she's been driving, 433 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 2: she drops in at a gym that she belongs to, 434 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 2: and I believe she's got the baby with her and 435 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: mostly just to be seen for five minutes. So she 436 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 2: was seen, and then she goes home and she puts 437 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: the picture of Kyroen on her Facebook page, and you know, 438 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 2: a couple hours later, Cain comes home and just to 439 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: finish that afternoon, they don't know Kyron hasn't been at 440 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 2: school all day, at least Kane doesn't know. Desiree doesn't know. 441 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 2: They walk down the baby and Terry and Kine walk 442 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 2: to meet the school bus, and the school bus driver says, 443 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: you know, no, I haven't seen Kyroen. They go to 444 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 2: the school and they find out nobody's seen him since 445 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: nine am. It's funny and weird, but also frightening that 446 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: when Desrae gets a call from the school and drives up, 447 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 2: neither Kin or Terry ever called her to tell her 448 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: Karen's smissing. So she talked to the school secretary. She 449 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: and Tony drive up, being the cop. He says, we've 450 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 2: got to go to the house. The school parking lot 451 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: has become this media center. I mean, just in a 452 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 2: couple of hours, hundreds of reporters and cameras and they 453 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 2: So they go to Caine's house, and I mean, I'll 454 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: never forget Desiree saying Terry opened the door to Hi, 455 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: come on in. We've got some food over here people 456 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: have brought. You know, is if it's an open house 457 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: or for the July party or just really weird behavior. 458 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: Now I come to something that I've wanted to ask 459 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: you for this whole time. But I want to know 460 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: what is the motive? What do you think the motive 461 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: would have been? If Terry is responsible. 462 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: I think she wanted to be free, and that meant 463 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: both Kan and kyn. I think if Kate had been killed, 464 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: she could have given Kyen back to Desiree, and Desiree 465 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: had said for years, you know, let me have him 466 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: more often, and Kin was the one resisting. Terry wanted 467 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: Kiren to leave. In fact, Terry actually called Desiree a 468 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: time or two and said, I'd like for you to 469 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: take Kyen, and Kan wouldn't let that happen. They found 470 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: after Kyraen missing that Terry was she was sexting. Kyen 471 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 2: had just gone missing, and she was sexting with somebody. 472 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: So I think she liked life better when she was free. 473 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: And if it wasn't going to be King who died, 474 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: and then she'd give back Kyron, she would get rid 475 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: of Kiren. It doesn't sound like enough motive to have 476 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: a child taken. 477 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: Oh listen. I mean, I think you and I both 478 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: have read and research stories where there is far less 479 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: motive than that for people to be killed. And it 480 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me one little bit that somebody poll holes. 481 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: You know, and I host another podcast, Buried Bones, and 482 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: he and I often talk about, you know, things that 483 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: sound stupid to us. It's all about the perception of 484 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: the killer and what we think is gosh, that's on. 485 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: A motive is absolutely a motive for somebody who you know, 486 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: in their own head says, I've got to get out 487 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 1: of the situation, right, I cannot spend one more moment 488 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: in this situation, and that's when they react. 489 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: Oh. One of the other things that had tipped I 490 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: think Terry into this dangerous area is that her teenage 491 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 2: son often lived with her and Kane, and Kane sent 492 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: him back to his grandparents in Roseberg. And I don't 493 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: know whether he knew, whether he took seriously the stories 494 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: about him frightening Kiren, but the teenage son had to leave, 495 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: so that I think I think Terry was mad about that. 496 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: But I agree there are lots of motives with a child, 497 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: it's just so much harder. I mean, it's just so 498 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: much harder to understand. But I think I've been thinking, 499 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: I still think about this all the time. I think 500 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: maybe something else that happened that maybe we don't know about. 501 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: That's something something else that put this bug in Terry. 502 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: That maybe it wasn't just her son being sent away, 503 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: or problems with Kin, or the fact she liked to 504 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: be you know, she liked chaos. And then I do 505 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 2: think it's premeditated that she set up, you know, school 506 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: fair people won't notice, you know, if a child is 507 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: taken away. 508 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: Have you thought about maybe Kyne saw something or read 509 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: or heard something. I wonder if that's a motive it. 510 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: It just seems so like, I know, she approached the 511 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: gardener to kill Cain, and I'm assuming the gardener said no, 512 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: thank you. She could have gone to someone else, She 513 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: could have tried other people and gotten him. I just 514 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: it's so odd and upsetting that he's you know, now 515 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: she's moved over to Kiren. 516 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Kyn very likely saw or heard something 517 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: or read something on you know, if her computer was 518 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: left open. I think Kyen had noticed something that was 519 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: going to be serious for Terry. 520 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: So the media comes out and droves because the police 521 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: of course immediately, you know, is it an amber alert? 522 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: It's twenty ten, I don't remember if that's when we 523 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: had Amber alerts. 524 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: Yep, there has to be a car involved, okay, so 525 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 3: just a missing child alert basically, you know, I've studied 526 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 3: and studied. I mean, I find no fault with the 527 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 3: police or the sheriff's office in the county. I know 528 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 3: from Desiree. 529 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,479 Speaker 2: And of course she is you know, sometimes criticized as 530 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: being pro cop because her husband was a detective. But 531 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: it was a massive, massive search. 532 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: Did they end up bringing the Oregon State Police in 533 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: or any federal agencies or anything like that. 534 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: Yes, and the FBI and just pretty much everybody you 535 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: can imagine. 536 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes when we hear that criticism of 537 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: cases in not Portland's large, but you know, in maybe 538 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: even a smaller area. To me, it tends sometimes to 539 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: be because the police, the local police are reticent to 540 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: work with state or federal So if they immediately reached 541 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: out are pretty close to immediately, then that obviously is 542 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: a big check mark in their favor, so that that's nice. 543 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: That's one thing we can take out of this is 544 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: police incompetence. It sounds like, yeah, this is. 545 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 2: A very interesting side note. Desiree and friends and Facebook. 546 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: They're backing somebody who's going to be in an election 547 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: with the DA who was the DA in twenty ten 548 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: because he won't bring charges. Mike Schmid is the current 549 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: DA and the candidate is ap prosecutor in the office, 550 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: so he's challenging his boss, and they're backing this fellow. 551 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 2: I don't I think. I think Desiree has met with 552 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 2: him and Desiree has tried over the years to continue 553 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: meeting with the DA in Portland to find out, well, 554 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: what would they have to know to be able to 555 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: make an arrest to bring charges, and Desiree is said, 556 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: they're not going to bring charges until they find Kirn's body. 557 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: I'll do it, I'll find him. I think the disappointment 558 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 2: in the community is with the DA's office. Of course, 559 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: that's where the buck stops, and not with the police, 560 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 2: because it's a DA who decides. 561 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, but I guess you could at the flip 562 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: side of as you could also say, well, the police 563 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: need to work harder to get evidence. And I'm assuming 564 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: that's what the DA will say, is well, keep doing, 565 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: keep going. If you want me to file these charges, 566 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: you've got to keep going and figure out a connection. 567 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: Well, I know grand Jury has continued to meet off 568 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: and on for years without bringing an indictment. Desiree tried. 569 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: You know, I always thought this was a good idea 570 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 2: if she filed the civil suit a year after Kyra 571 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 2: went missing. Yeah, and you know, you hear about families 572 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 2: like in the og Simpson case, Ronald Goldman's family after 573 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: OJ Simpson was found on guilty. You know, they file 574 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 2: a civil suit and they win. They may not collect, 575 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: but they win. She and her attorney needed the police 576 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: report to continue with the civil suit, and they couldn't 577 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: get it. That was it would have been about twenty eleven, 578 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 2: a year after Kiro disappeared. The police weren't ready to, 579 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 2: you know, because they'd be showing Kerry Horman everything they 580 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 2: had on her. 581 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 582 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they had to drop the civil suit. I 583 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: would think that might still be some day a possibility, Yeah, 584 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: to charge her civilly well, civil suits, even if there's 585 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 2: no conviction. It's such an excellent way to get information 586 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: and potentially get her on the stand to defend herself 587 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: or you know, you really that's a good way, and 588 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: I think a really effective way, which is I think 589 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: a lot of the motivation for a lot of families, 590 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 2: not necessarily you know, a monetary gain, but you know, 591 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 2: and even a convention, but to just get that information. 592 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 2: Have you talked to Desiree at all about if she's 593 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 2: going to be interested in in refiling. I don't think 594 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 2: we've talked about that in a few years, but that 595 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 2: is something I would ask her about. 596 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: Well, let's pick it back up with you know, there's 597 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: this media circus, there's this boy who's missing. At what 598 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: point do the police, I know, they're looking at everybody, 599 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: the husband who's a cop, who you know, had the 600 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure the knowledge to hide a body, the mother, 601 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: the biological mother, the stepmother or the father, and they 602 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: start digging through all this information. What is the big 603 00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: red flag for the police to say about Terry, This 604 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: woman's capable. Not that there are witnesses floating around who 605 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: say this and that, but when did they start becoming 606 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: very alarmed or is it the witnesses. 607 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 2: I'd say the evening of the day Kiren disappeared. Because 608 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: all the parents were kept in Caine's house for like 609 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: forty hours. I didn't know that this could happen. They 610 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 2: were all kept there, and of course the baby's there, 611 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: and Desiree had picked up her other son who maybe 612 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: was ten at the time, or ten or fourteen. So 613 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: the police are right there with them and they can see, 614 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 2: you know, Terry's quirky, that's putting it nicely, behavior about 615 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 2: you know, food and all of this. And I know 616 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 2: for a fact that right then Desiree and Kin and 617 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 2: Tony were very suspicious of Terry right away, even Cain 618 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: her husband. 619 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: Yes, and he didn't even know yet that she had 620 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: tried to put a hit out on him. 621 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 2: No, he didn't know. He didn't know that yet. Terry 622 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: is actually putting Kiren's things away in storage and taking 623 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 2: photos down from his room. And within two days the 624 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 2: police gave Terry Horman her first polygraph and quickly followed 625 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 2: by two others. She failed two polygraphs, and she walked 626 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: out on the third one. 627 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: I would have two, to be honest, I hate polographs. 628 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: Were they doing that to intimidate her? I mean they 629 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: had to have known that they're not going to get 630 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: any real confirmation of anything. 631 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: I think they get a psychological reading just from their behavior. 632 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: Take the test, don't you think. 633 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would scare me to death. Yes, absolutely so. 634 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 2: Then after a few days in this house together, Tony 635 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 2: and does Ray go to a hotel About ten days 636 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 2: after Kiren disappears, and you should if you haven't seen 637 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 2: this video on YouTube, it's really interesting. About ten days 638 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 2: after Irons disappeared is the first news conference with the 639 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 2: parents present and with the police, and it's held at 640 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 2: the old church across the road from where Kiren's school 641 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 2: is and the church has also become kind of a 642 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: media center. And the four parents are there together and 643 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 2: it looks like, you know, if you're just looking at 644 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 2: it looks like, oh, there's some unity between the parents 645 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 2: and the step parents. Well, Carrie leans on Desiree and 646 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 2: tries to hugger. Terry is the only one crying. Terry's 647 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: actions are so odd, and Desiree says she didn't want Terry. 648 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: They've never been close ever. They were not good friends 649 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 2: as some of Terry's friends said they were. They were 650 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 2: not friends. And here is the stepmother leaning on her, crying, 651 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 2: and the video is just pretty fascinating. And then what 652 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 2: they did is the men's the father and stepfather both 653 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 2: spoke briefly and the Sheriff's department, and it's not long 654 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,919 Speaker 2: after that when they find out about the hitman and 655 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 2: Caine moves out of the house. As far as I mean, 656 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 2: I think the really interesting question is where is Kyroen? 657 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? 658 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 2: I mean did she have time to dig a hole 659 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: in the woods. Incidentally, De d was deposed by the 660 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: Grand by attorneys and pled the Fifth Amendment. I think 661 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 2: it was one hundred and sixty one times or something. 662 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 2: So we didn't get anything from her, but she's left 663 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: the city. You know, they both they both left the city. 664 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 2: Terry went home to her parents in Roseberg, and Dedi 665 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 2: went back to Climbate Falls. Those were both in southern Oregon. 666 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: I don't think it's very common to hand off a child. 667 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 2: I don't think Terry had looked around for somebody to 668 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 2: give Kiren to. I don't know. There are people that 669 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 2: like to think that that, you know, one day he's 670 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 2: going to knock on the door when he's thirty years old, 671 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,760 Speaker 2: and you know, he's just remembered who he is or something. 672 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 2: I can't think of anything besides the Madeline McCann's story 673 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 2: in Portugal. 674 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 4: Yeah it's possible. I guess that they think she was 675 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,959 Speaker 4: taken to give away. Yeah, yeah, I don't know where 676 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 4: he is. She was on the road for a couple 677 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 4: of hours. 678 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 2: Not a lot of my leech on her. You know, 679 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 2: I don't think they knew what or a dometer was 680 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 2: when she set out that date. But she didn't go far. 681 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,240 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I think is interesting. I feel 682 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: like you're very I know this is all based on 683 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: your research. You're very bold to essentially accuse somebody of 684 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: murder who hasn't been convicted or arrested, who is, you know, 685 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: living her life in California. Do you not ever get 686 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: scared of your own civil lawsuit launched by Terry. 687 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: Well I just a few minutes ago. I thought about it. 688 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you know, but the book has been out, 689 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 2: you know, a few years now. Yeah. Of course they're 690 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 2: the Facebook pages. They take pictures of her house and 691 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: put them on one. 692 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: Oh man. And she's never made a statement, right, I 693 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: mean except to say I have no I have no 694 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: idea what happened. 695 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, the woman who basically is behind the 696 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 2: Facebook page, she's been kicked off with tiber too, and 697 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: then she's back. You know. So many people have said, 698 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: we think it was Terry Horman. Yeah, I don't think 699 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 2: I'm sticking out as the one person saying this. Desiree 700 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 2: has said it very publicly. Desiree and Cain went on 701 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 2: doctor Phil. Terry went on doctor Phil. Terry got her 702 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 2: own two statements. 703 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: I read about that. Can you summarize what happened with 704 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: doctor Phil from what Terry said about all of this? 705 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 2: She's never deviated from her story of that morning I 706 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 2: don't think she's ever deviated at all. You know, doctor 707 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 2: Phil was famous for saying, what were you thinking? You 708 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 2: know back then? And I haven't watched it in a while, 709 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 2: but I should, and it has mentioned the book. I 710 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 2: don't think he believed her at all. Desiree and came. 711 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 2: We're also on Oprah and so every you know, everybody 712 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 2: has said we think it was terry. So it doesn't 713 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 2: necessarily come from me. 714 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,399 Speaker 1: You know, It's interesting. I was thinking of like, how 715 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: would this work? And I know we talk about technology 716 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,439 Speaker 1: and is there a way, is there anything that could 717 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: be improved, you know, to crack this case? Seems to 718 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: me like the thing that could crack it is like 719 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: d D or somebody who knows something getting into some 720 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: pretty real trouble and getting out of it by giving 721 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: over some information, which is what often happens. But I 722 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: know this is kind of a different demographic then we're 723 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times, I think we talk about petty 724 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: criminals and drug dealers. I'm not sure if DD's going 725 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: to be getting into any kind of trouble. 726 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 2: Like that, I don't think so. I don't know much 727 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 2: about d D's current life, but her you know, history 728 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 2: as far as I knew, it wasn't as troublesome as 729 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 2: as Terry's. I think you're right that sometimes people squeal 730 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 2: because they can get something out of it. But I'm 731 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 2: not sure there's anybody else besides the two of them 732 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 2: that knows what happened. And maybe Deee doesn't even know. 733 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 2: Maybe she got in the truck. I've always thought maybe 734 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 2: Terry left her with the baby getting a cup of 735 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 2: coffee so that she wasn't really there. 736 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: To wrap this up? Where are Desiree and Kane? Now, 737 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I know we've talked about they both kind 738 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: of do their own fundraising. They both kind of have events. 739 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: They're trying to keep this going and I'm sure your 740 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 1: book you know, in twenty twenty, really helped. Are they 741 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 1: both living lives as well as they can of two 742 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: people who lost a child? 743 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 2: Well, Cain is still in that house in north Portland 744 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,359 Speaker 2: as far as I know, he said full custody of 745 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 2: what was the baby at the time. Because of Terry's 746 00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 2: past history, Terry could see that child if she caught 747 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,839 Speaker 2: up with all these years of child support that she 748 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 2: hasn't done that, so she hasn't seen her little girl 749 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 2: in fourteen years, Wow came and last I I don't 750 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 2: know exactly what he's doing. I think he stood until 751 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 2: maybe and he has this fundraiser for Kiren. And course 752 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 2: Desiree is never far away from her, you know, and 753 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 2: she's doing something which I think is amazing. She speaks 754 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 2: at a lot of gatherings and this kind of evolved 755 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 2: over the last few years at you know, true crime 756 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 2: festivals where they have people speak and often you know, parents, 757 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 2: missy children. But she also and of course she her 758 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 2: husband was a detective. She speaks to police agencies. She 759 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 2: speaks to law enforcement. There's something called KURT Training, which 760 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:03,399 Speaker 2: is Child Abduction sponse Team, and it brings together it's 761 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 2: three days. It's held all over the country and it 762 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 2: brings together teams of local police, FBI, social workers, first responders, 763 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 2: fire search and rescue people for specialized training all the 764 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 2: roles that you have people playing when there's a child missing. 765 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 2: And Desiree speaks to KURT Training, and I just think 766 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 2: that's amazing for them to hear from a parent who 767 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,399 Speaker 2: really went through this. Yeah, and I've never I don't 768 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 2: think I've ever heard Desiree say they didn't do this 769 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 2: or they didn't do that. I will say, you know, 770 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 2: the case is open. You never close. Police never close 771 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 2: a case of a missing child. So the case is open. 772 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 2: And she's been told that, you know a lot of 773 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,720 Speaker 2: times with police departments, and I've written about again missing 774 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 2: other missing people. Once every year or two they'll assign, 775 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 2: you know, somebody with fresh eyes to a case and 776 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 2: they'll take a look at it, and it usually goes nowhere. 777 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 2: But you know, I'm sure, I'm sure that the Molamba 778 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 2: County Sharff's office does that and takes another look at 779 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 2: things Desiree has helped find, and the fundraising has financed 780 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,240 Speaker 2: news searches of areas that she thinks need another search. 781 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 1: So really, you know, at the end of this story, 782 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: we're back to Kiren, who is missing, and that is 783 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 1: the hope that ultimately, you know, in one way or 784 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: the other, his body will be recovered, he will be found, 785 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,879 Speaker 1: and then somebody will be brought to justice, if that's 786 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 1: Terry or whomever. 787 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't always believe in what the media 788 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 2: calls closure. The paint does not end when they find 789 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,359 Speaker 2: the remains, but I do think it puts you a 790 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 2: step closer. I think it puts families in a kind 791 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 2: of a new position, and of course often leads to 792 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,839 Speaker 2: then some kind of criminal charges being brought. If they 793 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 2: can find you know the body, they'll know a lot 794 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 2: more about who did what. 795 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 796 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 797 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,879 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 798 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 799 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 800 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has 801 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. 802 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 803 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 804 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 805 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More 806 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod