WEBVTT - Former Meta COO & Author Sheryl Sandberg Talks Workplace Diversity 

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>Please to say.

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<v Speaker 3>Joining us right now is Bloomberg Original's host and executive

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<v Speaker 3>producer Emily Chang.

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<v Speaker 2>She joins us right now with Cheryl Sandberg. Emily Romaine.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much on Cheryl, thank you so much

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<v Speaker 3>for joining us. I know this ambition gap is troubling

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<v Speaker 3>to you. Essentially, women are leaning out. They're deciding they

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<v Speaker 3>don't want to be promoted because it doesn't seem worth

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<v Speaker 3>it after all the work that's been done, all the talk,

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<v Speaker 3>what do you think.

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<v Speaker 2>Broke, Well, let's start at the top.

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<v Speaker 1>So not all women are leaning out, and not all companies.

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<v Speaker 1>But what our report shows this year, this is our

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<v Speaker 1>eleventh year, is that about half of companies no longer

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<v Speaker 1>prioritize advancement for women, and twenty one percent of those

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<v Speaker 1>companies say women's career advancement is a low or no

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<v Speaker 1>priority at all. And those are the companies that participated

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<v Speaker 1>in the Women in the Workplace report we do with McKinsey.

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<v Speaker 1>And so these companies in many ways are the best

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<v Speaker 1>the best, and then we do see that ambition gap,

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<v Speaker 1>but only when women don't get the opportunities and support

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<v Speaker 1>they need.

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<v Speaker 3>How when companies at risk like or is the conventional

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<v Speaker 3>wisdom that this is better for business not ringing true.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the conventional wisdom should be and is what's true,

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<v Speaker 1>which is that when you get the best out of

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<v Speaker 1>your whole workforce, you're going to do better. So what's

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<v Speaker 1>happening is that women face more barriers at every level

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<v Speaker 1>of the career entry level. We call it the broken wrung,

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<v Speaker 1>and we see it every year. For every one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>men that get promoted, ninety three women, sixty black women,

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<v Speaker 1>eighty two latinas. That's because we hire and promote men

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<v Speaker 1>based on potential and women for what they've already proven.

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<v Speaker 2>So of course women can't prove they're a manager.

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<v Speaker 1>Then at the senior levels, our report shows this year

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<v Speaker 1>that at the same levels, a man is seventy percent

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<v Speaker 1>more likely to get tapped for leadership training. Think about

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<v Speaker 1>what that says. If you're a future leader, come to

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<v Speaker 1>leadership training. And so this is only happening in the

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<v Speaker 1>companies that aren't doing the right thing. When women get

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<v Speaker 1>the full support and the same stretch opportunities, they're not

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<v Speaker 1>leaning out at all. And so it's a question of

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<v Speaker 1>economic productivity. Do we want to get the best growth

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<v Speaker 1>in our economy? Do we want to get the best

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<v Speaker 1>out of our workforce. We're at to fork in the road,

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<v Speaker 1>and companies have a decision to make.

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<v Speaker 3>The Trump administration is pushing policies that explicitly try to

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<v Speaker 3>incentivize women to have more babies while simultaneously weakening workplace protections.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you see these natalist policies as they are called,

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<v Speaker 3>as pressure on women to return to traditional roles or

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<v Speaker 3>is it support for families?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, look, women can have as many kids as

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<v Speaker 1>they want and still have to go to work. I

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<v Speaker 1>think what we forget in a lot of this is

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<v Speaker 1>that the great majority of women do not have the

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<v Speaker 1>choice to be a full time mother and a full

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<v Speaker 1>time spouse. Now, I feel we sometimes come up with

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<v Speaker 1>new language for old ideas, and I want to be clear.

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<v Speaker 1>If you can afford to be a full time spouse

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<v Speaker 1>and a full time parent as a man or a woman,

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<v Speaker 1>and you want to do that, I think that can

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<v Speaker 1>be deeply fulfilling work. But we've got to remember that

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<v Speaker 1>most women don't have that option. They have an economic

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<v Speaker 1>reality that they have to wake up in the morning

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<v Speaker 1>and leave their home to earn money. To support their families,

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<v Speaker 1>and so again new language for old ideas trad wife.

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<v Speaker 1>That's just telling these women that have to leave their

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<v Speaker 1>home that it's going to harm their marriages and their kids.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not what the data supports.

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<v Speaker 1>We should be able to make any choice we make

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<v Speaker 1>without putting old pressures on women in a modern workforce

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<v Speaker 1>where that's not the economic reality they live in.

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<v Speaker 3>President Trump has called on companies to root out what

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<v Speaker 3>he calls illegal DEI you know, threatening federal contracts, threatening

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<v Speaker 3>regulatory action. How is this going to be looked back on?

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<v Speaker 3>How is history going to look back on the DEI rollback?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think people didn't understand and thought that

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<v Speaker 1>women were getting unfair treatment. But let's there are some

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<v Speaker 1>numbers at this Women got fifty nine percent of the

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<v Speaker 1>college degrees, and women are ten percent of fortune five

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<v Speaker 1>hundred CEO jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying there.

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<v Speaker 1>Aren't times when people are given preferential treatment.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course there are, what on average in our economy.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you really think that fifty nine percent of the

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<v Speaker 1>college degree is getting ten percent of book jobs means

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<v Speaker 1>they're systematic special treatment for women. I mean my experience

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<v Speaker 1>in the workforce and I think yours and a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people is that it was hard. It was hard

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<v Speaker 1>to be one of the only women women in the room.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the question is what can companies do? And

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<v Speaker 1>I'll tell you there's a lot they can do, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's in our report and it's completely legal. So, for example, feedback,

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<v Speaker 1>one percent of men get style based feedback in performance

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<v Speaker 1>reviews and sixty six percent of women.

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<v Speaker 2>What can companies do?

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<v Speaker 1>You establish criteria in advance that everyone agrees to that

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<v Speaker 1>are universally applied. Everyone gets this kind of feedback that

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<v Speaker 1>is not just legally permissible, but allowed and encouraged and

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<v Speaker 1>creates a level playing field. This isn't about special treatment.

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<v Speaker 1>This is about getting everyone the opportunity to do their

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<v Speaker 1>best work and contribute.

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<v Speaker 3>Meta is among many companies that have rolled back DEI policies,

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<v Speaker 3>and Mark Zuckerberg reportedly blamed you for the policies being

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<v Speaker 3>there in the first place. Some employees have felt that

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<v Speaker 3>your legacy is being dismantled. What have your conversations been

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<v Speaker 3>like with Mark about this. I know you're still friends

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<v Speaker 3>and you have to have feelings about this.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's exactly what happened in that meeting,

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<v Speaker 1>and Mark went out and.

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<v Speaker 2>Publicly posted and clarified.

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<v Speaker 1>But here's what I would say is that every company,

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<v Speaker 1>including Meta, has the opportunity unity to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>they're fair to women. Here's what the data shows us,

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<v Speaker 1>over and over and over again, so many examples. When

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<v Speaker 1>a man and woman ask for raises or promotions, the

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<v Speaker 1>woman's thirty percent more likely to be told she's too aggressive.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you do?

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<v Speaker 1>Standardize your processes. Every company should be doing it. So

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<v Speaker 1>for example, interviews, if you don't have agreed upon questions,

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<v Speaker 1>you ask naturally and maybe not on purpose, but naturally,

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<v Speaker 1>people sometimes ask the easier questions to the men and

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<v Speaker 1>the harder questions to the women. Just standardize your questions,

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<v Speaker 1>put systems in place that protect people, but also that

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<v Speaker 1>just give people the opportunity to contribute.

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<v Speaker 3>You have to acknowledge that there's a big rhetoric shift happening,

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<v Speaker 3>and obviously we're seeing it in Silicon Valley.

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<v Speaker 2>We are seeing people.

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<v Speaker 3>Tech leaders who said one thing in the last election

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<v Speaker 3>now whispering in the president's ear. A lot of these

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<v Speaker 3>people that you know personally, What do you think is

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<v Speaker 3>happening here? Is this transactional? Is this just business or

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<v Speaker 3>is this a real change in values happening.

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of the rhetoric is terrible, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think we see some of the impacts in this report.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, I'm fifty six, so I've been in

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<v Speaker 1>the workforces my fourth decade, and what I see is

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<v Speaker 1>that we make progress, we backslide, we make progress.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a backlash.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the reason these ideas take hold so easily

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<v Speaker 1>is they were never really gone, even though the rhetoric

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<v Speaker 1>is bad. Now, do I really think we ever fully

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<v Speaker 1>encouraged leadership in little girls and little boys as and

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<v Speaker 1>women as much as men know, So when it happens,

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<v Speaker 1>when this rhetoric happens, it's so easy to take hold

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<v Speaker 1>because it's like fertile ground. I'll give you one that

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<v Speaker 1>really scares me. Eighth and tenth grade boys, middle and

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<v Speaker 1>high school boys. They surveyed them in twenty eighteen, and

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<v Speaker 1>they said, what do you believe women should have the

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<v Speaker 1>same opportunities as men in the workforce?

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<v Speaker 2>In twenty eighteen, sixty three percent. Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>I could spend all day talking about why that's so upsetting,

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<v Speaker 1>like where are the other thirty seven percent? But sixty

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<v Speaker 1>three said yees, sixty two percent said yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Today it's forty five.

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<v Speaker 1>We are seeing that same double ditch slide in middle

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<v Speaker 1>and high school boys believing that women should.

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<v Speaker 2>Get equal pay. That's not okay.

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<v Speaker 1>And what it's going to take to change that is

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<v Speaker 1>I think people realizing that this is about economic productivity.

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<v Speaker 1>This is about do we want our companies to succeed.

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<v Speaker 3>You built two companies, Help build two companies that are

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<v Speaker 3>incredibly economically productive. We are in the middle of this

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<v Speaker 3>massive AI moment where companies are investing a lot, but

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<v Speaker 3>it's also total chaos, it seems for you know, within

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<v Speaker 3>and among some of the startups that are trying to

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<v Speaker 3>build sustainable business models in an AI moment.

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<v Speaker 2>What's your advice to companies right.

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<v Speaker 3>Now about how they build a business model that can

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<v Speaker 3>work and survive in the age of AI.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's such a good question.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was at Google in some of the early

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<v Speaker 1>years and then I to Facebook now Meta, and I

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<v Speaker 1>do think there's times when it really makes sense to

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<v Speaker 1>invest ahead of revenue in business models. Right If Google,

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<v Speaker 1>when I was there in the early days, had tried

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<v Speaker 1>to cover our costs for search, we never would have

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<v Speaker 1>gotten enough search out there to get enough user feedback

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<v Speaker 1>to improve the search results, to get to what was

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<v Speaker 1>a great business for Google.

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<v Speaker 2>So it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>At some point, at some level, you have to have

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<v Speaker 1>revenue that covers costs.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that from ads?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, people make it so complicated. It's not complicated ready.

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<v Speaker 1>Someone has to pay, who can pay, Businesses can pay,

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<v Speaker 1>They can pay via advertising, they can pay via paying

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<v Speaker 1>in some way, shape or form for database services, or

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<v Speaker 1>people have to pay, and it will be a combination

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<v Speaker 1>of all of these things.

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<v Speaker 2>But over time, the revenue is going to have to

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<v Speaker 2>cover the costs, all right.

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<v Speaker 3>Cheryl Samberg, author of Leaning You Know, obviously help build

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<v Speaker 3>Facebook and Google into what they are today.