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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to episode number twenty. I'm the Honey Collective.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bet O'Brien. Today I'm joined by a return guest,

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Speaker 1: the great Charles Post. He joined me an episode number

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Speaker 1: eleven to talk about his background as at Berkeley train

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Speaker 1: ecologist and talk about how important it is to think

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Speaker 1: about ecosystems not just single game animals. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: we can learn from Charles, and there's a lot he

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Speaker 1: has to teach us. But in this conversation, we go,

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Speaker 1: we got random, we got deep, but we ended on

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Speaker 1: a great conversation around the wild horse issue in the body.

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Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with that issue, please listen to

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Speaker 1: the full podcast because you will find out that's an

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Speaker 1: issue for all of us. If you enjoy public lands

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Speaker 1: and you enjoy using them, you're gonna want to hear

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Speaker 1: what Charles has to say. Without further ado, here's Mr

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Speaker 1: Post An episode number twenty. We're recording to Charles. I

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Speaker 1: have new equipment here. We've seen and now it is

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Speaker 1: very looks very It's like a whole thing. It has

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Speaker 1: a blender built on top of it. Yeah, so we're

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Speaker 1: nervous this again. There's regular listeners to the show would

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Speaker 1: know that I did delete one remy Warren podcast early on,

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Speaker 1: and so now I have the nervousness with new equipment

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Speaker 1: that like this is being recorded but will never be

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Speaker 1: heard by anyone. We're going to go to go with it.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully our new equipment is better. The red light looks promising.

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Speaker 1: It is. It's got a little ticker there. There we

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Speaker 1: go taking forward. Well, where are we at? Man? We're

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Speaker 1: in not that I don't know, I do know. Just

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Speaker 1: tell the listeners where. Yeah, we're at my house, um

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Speaker 1: my fiance and nice movement, a new place just outside

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Speaker 1: of Bozeman. So we're looking at there's a bird at

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Speaker 1: the feeder. Tell me what kind of bird that is?

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Speaker 1: That would be a female as a light bunting yet

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Speaker 1: I get yeah, it's fun. So do you sit here?

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Speaker 1: What percentage of birds that land on that feed or

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Speaker 1: do you know the name of Probably ninety. But there's

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Speaker 1: not that. I mean, I'm new to Montana, you know, relatively,

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Speaker 1: I've been here for about two years. Coming from the

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Speaker 1: West Coast, I knew most of the birds. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot more bird species out there, but coming to a

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Speaker 1: new place, I'm just kind of seeing the season, spring.

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Speaker 1: This is a this is a grand place, this this town.

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Speaker 1: I've been here a few times, but yeah, I have

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Speaker 1: not been the lake close by your highlight lake, say

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Speaker 1: it right, but I've heard good things. Yeah, it's a spot.

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Speaker 1: You're in a good spot. I would say it's like

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Speaker 1: the closest ocean to Bozeman. So why Boseman for you? Originally? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so well before before Rachel, before I met my fiancee UM,

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Speaker 1: I was living in northern California, and my most of

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Speaker 1: my adult life had been kind of focused around ecology

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Speaker 1: and working in academia and working with the scientist. So naturally,

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Speaker 1: you know, you grow up and you kind of grow

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Speaker 1: in this space. You're drawn to places like Yellowstone. I mean, boy,

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Speaker 1: you know, for wildlife, that's kind of like the epicenter.

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Speaker 1: So I was constantly trying to find ways to get

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Speaker 1: out here. You know. Also, the fishing is good, the

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Speaker 1: hunting is good. You know, there's all these you know,

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Speaker 1: all these kind of like draws. And then I kind

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Speaker 1: of got my feet wet and thought to myself, you know,

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Speaker 1: one day this would be a good place. And then

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Speaker 1: meeting you know, the woman of my dreams who's from here,

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Speaker 1: born and raised, you know that kind of like hooked

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Speaker 1: me in and you're getting married. Now this is a

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Speaker 1: big deal. Yeah, right in the middle of fall September. Well,

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Speaker 1: the good thing is is that we travel so much.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a great reason to be home for

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Speaker 1: that month. Well us, I mean, are you nervous about

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Speaker 1: the wedding? No, we didn't talk, and I'm preppy for

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Speaker 1: this line of conversation. You know, I think for folks

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Speaker 1: who are listening out there, everybody's wedding is different. There's

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Speaker 1: different expectations, different needs, different mothers in law or mothers

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Speaker 1: to cater too. Um So I think for us, we

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Speaker 1: initially thought like, let's just a lope, let's keep it simple,

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Speaker 1: and then we realized you couldn't do that because you know,

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Speaker 1: the wedding it is for us, but it's also for

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Speaker 1: our friends and family, and we wanted to make a

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Speaker 1: space where we could include everybody wanted to be there.

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Speaker 1: And so it quickly went from this like, oh, we

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Speaker 1: should just a lope too, And we got like winter people,

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Speaker 1: you know, and we want to show them a good time,

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Speaker 1: but we want to do it and I all have

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Speaker 1: to have crab cakes. I don't understand why fingerfood is key.

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Speaker 1: Same for my wedding, same thing. I'm like, well, let's

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Speaker 1: go to Dominican Republic, Like, yeah, we'll just like swim

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Speaker 1: and then we'll get married and then we'll keep swimming. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll go see the turtles beat and then yeah, then

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Speaker 1: you get to the reality like, well, Aunt and Sharon

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Speaker 1: can't come, she can't get on the plane. Had a

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Speaker 1: bad hip, damn it. Yeah, I want to do that, Sharon.

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Speaker 1: Then yes, then you then you get you dialed back

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Speaker 1: in a little bit. So that's a natural occurrence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but no, it's coming along. Um, we've made a lot

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Speaker 1: of progress. I feel like we just hired a wedding planner,

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Speaker 1: which is clutch for anybody out there. Wedding planner. Good deal, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: good deal. So listen. I know you know nobody will

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Speaker 1: will hear this. So if you have any fears, you

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Speaker 1: want to tea me and you Yeah, and you need

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Speaker 1: to talk through anything you oh gosh, any if you're nervous, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely Rachel. She'll never listen to this, so just

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Speaker 1: let it out. It's cathartic to talk about it, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think I think the fear is like you want it.

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Speaker 1: You want it to be everything you hoped it would be,

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Speaker 1: and you want your wife, your future wife to kind

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Speaker 1: of have that day. So you know, I know it's

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Speaker 1: gonna go. Well, I know everybody in Evolves got their

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Speaker 1: heart in it. Um, yeah, I don't know. I think

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Speaker 1: we have Conrad Anchor doing the words, so he'll he'll

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Speaker 1: he'll tell us up. Oh yeah, is he gonna like

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Speaker 1: propel in no four easy payments of Well, I say

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Speaker 1: you could live stream and was follow it would be nice. No,

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Speaker 1: it should be good. Rachel and the Lows. Um, he

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Speaker 1: grew up together. Conrad has been a big part of

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Speaker 1: her life. Um. They climbed anality together and done a

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Speaker 1: bunch of cool things. He's uh, yeah, he's been a

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Speaker 1: really cool kind of like mentor and what a cool person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've met him just briefly. Probably wouldn't even know if

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Speaker 1: he's like I've been bribing, Like I don't know that

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Speaker 1: is he has security like pull you away, yeah, like

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Speaker 1: step back. But he did one time dramal tool one

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Speaker 1: of my Yetti ramblers with the signature. I can't say that.

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Speaker 1: How much do you sell that for? It's one sale

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Speaker 1: right now. L's in to this. Click the link in

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Speaker 1: the profile. Click the link the profile. Whatever you think

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Speaker 1: it's worse. Why did that guy ruin your rain? That

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Speaker 1: was contractor that's like I haven't signed with any things.

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Speaker 1: Whenever I do, I'm like, well, now you have a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old signature. Yeah, you don't want that as

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Speaker 1: a kid, though, signatures are a big deal totally. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why. Somewhere along my life and like, here's

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Speaker 1: a guy just writing all my stuff, like don't write

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Speaker 1: all my stuff, especially like sports, sports stars and things

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Speaker 1: like that, and then they read in your forehead and

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Speaker 1: you're like why, why why did you do that? I

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Speaker 1: like that part so connected to you. I think, you know.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of signatures, though, I think there's something to be

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Speaker 1: said for like whether or not you get the signature,

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Speaker 1: like making that step towards like a mentor hero, you know,

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Speaker 1: and just having the chance. I mean, I remember in

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Speaker 1: grad school of my advisor, she always said, like, you'll

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Speaker 1: make more progress in the space by knocking on doors

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Speaker 1: and shaking hands and being curious than you will with

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Speaker 1: like a straight a or an EMPIC paper or good search. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think you find most people are good people, especially

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Speaker 1: if you share a passion with them or whatever. Most

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Speaker 1: people are just good, totally. Yeah, and they they feed

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Speaker 1: off passion. I think that's what's so cool about your podcast.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't know you. It's just that I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of the conversations that you've had on your

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Speaker 1: show come from a space of passion. You know, come

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Speaker 1: from a place of of of curiosity and like wanting

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Speaker 1: to learn. It's not you know, I'm drawn to those

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Speaker 1: narratives that come from a place of of curiosity as

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Speaker 1: opposed to you know, let me tell you how it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's conversations are good. I always I've said this

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Speaker 1: many times. It's like you get off of a good

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Speaker 1: podcast where you're sitting with somebody. We're just sitting at

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Speaker 1: a table in your kitchen or dining this is the

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Speaker 1: dining room. I'm not good at naming house rooms. And

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just like we're hanging out talking. And

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Speaker 1: when I was tell my wife about it, she's like,

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Speaker 1: why do you like it so much? Because I was

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Speaker 1: excited for coming to boson this weekend because I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: do a bunch of podcasts, And she's like, why are

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Speaker 1: you so excited about the podcast portion of it because

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Speaker 1: it's fun. And when you get off of a good,

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Speaker 1: good conversation, you're like, man, I'm excited that person's passion.

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Speaker 1: If I can just get a little bit of that

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Speaker 1: every time, I'm gonna be way better for it totally.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's why people listen to any podcast,

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Speaker 1: Like a good conversation is worth more than you think

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Speaker 1: it is, even in the moment. And so we just

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Speaker 1: now we just record all our good conversations to be

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Speaker 1: stored forever. Ever. Everyone that's true, Well, we congratulations on

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Speaker 1: your marriagehen is gonna happen September. We already said that hopefully,

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Speaker 1: you said, hopefully Rachel's getting her hunting license this year.

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Speaker 1: She can't with me. Last year, Um, I was able

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Speaker 1: to connect with an amazing elk And she looked at

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Speaker 1: me right after She's like, I'm going to pick one.

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Speaker 1: I was like, sweetheart, can we just like enjoy the

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Speaker 1: fact takes some time to get before we become a

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Speaker 1: real hunting enjoy the little things. But hopefully we're gonna

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Speaker 1: spend some time. You know, we're kind of dedicating that

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Speaker 1: month to just being out on the hills and really

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Speaker 1: enjoying home and our first fall in this house and wow,

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Speaker 1: yeah it should be good. Well, that's awesome, that's awesome. Alright,

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Speaker 1: this place is uh this time of year, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what's it mid mid July right now. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: it's a little warm, but freaking beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: just drove down the canyon. It's a big sky and

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Speaker 1: they're just looking around like this. People people live here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's and there's there's so much kind I mean, Bozeman

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Speaker 1: is awesome because it has so much going on. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have the university, you have I think a pretty

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Speaker 1: amazing suite of people with different backgrounds and perspectives and ideals. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty diverse, especially for this part of the country.

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Speaker 1: And then you can go, you know, five ten minutes

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Speaker 1: in they direction and you're out there, you know, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of the time out there. Yeah, to public land,

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Speaker 1: to national forests everywhere. Yeah, Rachel grew up just a

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Speaker 1: few mines from town, and you know, we've seen moose

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Speaker 1: and we saw a wolf run through right next to

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Speaker 1: their house, and we've seen grizly bears and the hills

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Speaker 1: up here, and you know, it's fice to say I

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Speaker 1: like it here. Yeah, it's a good place, the nice place.

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Speaker 1: Airport's awesome. It is awesome, you know, super easy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my kid would landed. My kid found like have you

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Speaker 1: ever when you go out of security to go in

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Speaker 1: the airport there's that little store and there's like a

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Speaker 1: stuff bear that's two feet tall. He just he just

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Speaker 1: ran over hug that bear and just picked it up,

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Speaker 1: walking like, son, that's theft. But and you're like, it's

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Speaker 1: a thousand dollars dollar bear, so you can't have it.

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Speaker 1: Put it back, you can cut its paw off, don't

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Speaker 1: take that home. But yeah, it's like he if he

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Speaker 1: goes into the Chicago airport, he's just looking around like,

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Speaker 1: don't don't hurt me. Totally. Yeah, this is a very

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Speaker 1: like I think you step off the plane and it's

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Speaker 1: it feels approachable. Yeah, you know, accept when it's negative

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Speaker 1: twenty in February. Well, anyway, don't move to Montana and

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Speaker 1: nobody wants people that live here. Don't let you to

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Speaker 1: move here. We're just staging before I moved to Orlando. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh it's nice this time it is. Have you the fishing, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the dolphins in the sand in the tank and

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Speaker 1: the Dolphs. Did they still have dolphins in the wild?

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Speaker 1: Dolphins dam in the wild? Do they still have them

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Speaker 1: in the tanks where the people watch them? Like sea? What?

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Speaker 1: I know? The orca thing has a big deal. That's

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Speaker 1: a big deal. I don't know enough about that to

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Speaker 1: talk about that. Yeah. Blackfish, Yeah, Blackfish is a film

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Speaker 1: to watch. I'm not seeing it, but heard a lot

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Speaker 1: about it. Um, we're rambling, man, We're full. I like rambling.

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling feeling like it's a good rambling day. So

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Speaker 1: I don't really I want to get all serious or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. Well, I appreciate you reaching out. I

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Speaker 1: think that first podcast was that was fun. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: you know what got me thinking about that one? You

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Speaker 1: live here. Obviously we've never met in person. But second, um,

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Speaker 1: gear Junkie did an article and of the best hunting podcasts,

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Speaker 1: mine was on there and it was like, what's the

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Speaker 1: best what was the best episode and they put the

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Speaker 1: one with you. Well, let's do another one. So thank

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Speaker 1: you gear Junkie. Yeah, thank you. I gotta check out

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Speaker 1: the article. Yeah, it just says how great you are

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Speaker 1: or Yeah, maybe it's a reflection that people like nerdy

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Speaker 1: science psychology stuff or just different stuff or just different

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Speaker 1: a conversation that goes a different direction, because I find that,

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Speaker 1: like being in the industry is troublesome for me because

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Speaker 1: you don't really have just a regular person's perspective on

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Speaker 1: hunting anymore. It's kind of impossible to have that, even

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Speaker 1: for me when I walk in you know, I've been

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Speaker 1: a writer and then working at Yeddie and you know,

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Speaker 1: you work in the industry, you get free product, like

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Speaker 1: it's just part of the deal, not not ashamed to

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Speaker 1: say it. So when you walk going past bro you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: m it's expensive. It's a lot of money. So there

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Speaker 1: is a bubble in our industry that you get in.

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Speaker 1: It's very easy to one. It's kind of like a

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Speaker 1: boys club where you you know, you hit the rumor

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Speaker 1: mill and you talk about everybody, and but you lose

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Speaker 1: your perspective on gear and you lose your perspective on

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Speaker 1: one hunting really is, and how hard it really is

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Speaker 1: to get into for people that don't do it, and

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Speaker 1: to people that do take part, how hard it is

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Speaker 1: on your pocketbook and in your time if you have

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Speaker 1: a family, These things are hard up. So when you're

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Speaker 1: doing it for a living air quotes, you lose that perspective,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that's the goal, because you every really love

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Speaker 1: to do it for a living. That that haunts. But

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Speaker 1: I think when they hear your perspectives, just watched like, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's a guy who's not talking about these amazing adventures

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Speaker 1: in a way that that's his business. He started studying

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Speaker 1: ecology and moved into this, and so those perspectives are

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Speaker 1: my God, that's important to me. Yeah, And I think

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that, and I think that, you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I remember my mentor and graduate

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Speaker 1: school told me was, you know, some of the most

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Speaker 1: um inspiring people that we've had on Earth have married

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Speaker 1: to kind of disconnected worlds. You know. It's like the

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Speaker 1: mathematician who's a samocist who figures out how to like

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Speaker 1: patch a heart, you know, where it's the the farmer

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Speaker 1: who's really good at chemistry he figures out how to

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Speaker 1: make the cropper system strain. And I think that kind

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Speaker 1: of blend of perspective is kind of hopefully, you know,

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Speaker 1: works towards removing that kind of island dynamic that can

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Speaker 1: happen in certain communities. You know, whatever field, whether you're

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Speaker 1: in sports or science or hunting. You know, you kind

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Speaker 1: of get on your island. You talked to your tribe,

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Speaker 1: and you can kind of predict what people are gonna say,

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Speaker 1: how they're gonna react. Um, obviously there is some some

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Speaker 1: flux of new ideas and new perspectives, but it can

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Speaker 1: be kind of that insular space. Yeah, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: a good a good point. Like anymore, I'm firmly pro

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Speaker 1: nuance and I'm firmly anti tribalism like that, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I can describe myself, like what do you believe? Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know those two things for sure. I feel

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Speaker 1: like you have to be those two things, Especially if

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Speaker 1: you live in a digital space and put content out,

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Speaker 1: you gotta be like, let's leave room for nuance and

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Speaker 1: let's not get in our bubble. Let's let's try to

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Speaker 1: like look at everything that an open mind. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the pillars of of

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Speaker 1: science is this idea that science is a perfect science

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Speaker 1: builds um the you know, our predecessors work. It stands

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Speaker 1: on the shoulders of the people that inspired us. And

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Speaker 1: the best science stems from the best question and they're

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Speaker 1: always the best science always presented with this idea that

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Speaker 1: that we are confident in our results. That leaves an

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Speaker 1: inherent five unknown. So I think that's something that's that

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Speaker 1: I find interesting with hunting or conservation or ecology or

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Speaker 1: whatever that society, we the media, whatever, there's this inclination

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Speaker 1: to be definitive and to say like it's this way

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Speaker 1: or that way, and there's two bins. But what I

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Speaker 1: always try to say, like you're talking about that nuance

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Speaker 1: that minutia, the weeds are where the magic happens, and

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Speaker 1: the weeds are where the truth comes from. Um. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's hard because folks, you know, we're we're looking

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Speaker 1: for answers, but oftentimes, you know, like I just got

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Speaker 1: back fro this horse project, there are answers that are

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Speaker 1: applicable to a population, to a herd, to a herd

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Speaker 1: management area, um to a season, to a rainfall regime,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then the second like that place that

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Speaker 1: used to have two inch the rain gets no rain,

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Speaker 1: then it's a whole different answer. So it's it makes yeah,

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Speaker 1: But I think that's that's the beauty of, you know,

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Speaker 1: of looking at the world that way, that there's always

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Speaker 1: room to improve and it also takes a long time. Science.

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Speaker 1: You can't you can't look at something like, well, I

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Speaker 1: got it. Here's my scientific the final scientific conclusion to

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Speaker 1: this problem. I just figured out except extinction that that's

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Speaker 1: pretty obvious. Are we haven't seen him in a while,

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Speaker 1: the one on the ground, and that's he looks like

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Speaker 1: you might be the last one the way that he's dead,

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Speaker 1: which is such a bummer. Yeah, there's so few finalities

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Speaker 1: in the exploration of the out the outside or natural world.

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Speaker 1: There's no finality in the scientific exploration of it. There

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Speaker 1: seems to be finality in our opinions when we, you know,

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Speaker 1: dial up the rigidity of our own you know, ideologies

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Speaker 1: and philosophies and dial it up a little bit, which

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Speaker 1: seems a lot of people have done, and then you

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Speaker 1: leave no room to one change your mind when something happens,

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Speaker 1: to change your mind, and to have any kind of

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Speaker 1: discourse about something that you may even slightly disagree with

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Speaker 1: someone else on. And so I think those things are

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Speaker 1: you know, scientific approaches. The scientific approach to life might

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Speaker 1: be a little bit better than the way some folks

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Speaker 1: are approaching it right now, because it's you know, on

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Speaker 1: a lot of issues especially in our entire society, but

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Speaker 1: in our hunting space to outdoor space too. I think

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Speaker 1: it's those those rigid opinions are annoying as ship totally.

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Speaker 1: And I think the oversimplification is annoying because people some

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Speaker 1: people are looking for that, you know. I mean, maybe

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Speaker 1: that's because we've been trained by the media to look

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Speaker 1: for that, because that's a lot of headlines are is

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Speaker 1: just an oversimplification, a skewed perspective. You know, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to make a living being liminal. It's hard to make

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Speaker 1: a living being you know, acknowledging the complexities. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: I think in general we shouldn't do this, But let

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Speaker 1: me just tell you, here's ten other reasons why you

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Speaker 1: might be able to in this context. But out of

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Speaker 1: that context, I disagree with it. And people like, well,

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Speaker 1: he this guy sucks. He's anti whatever he just said.

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Speaker 1: Even though he said it sometimes you could do it,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want you to do it. And he's had

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Speaker 1: a plastic water bottle. Yeah that's a single use. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's hard. But I would say, and I think

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Speaker 1: you're a good example of it, and Rachel as well

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Speaker 1: as a good example of it. If you if you

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Speaker 1: admit that those energies like hey, look, it's positivity, it's curiosity.

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Speaker 1: It's like I want to go outside, I want to learn,

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Speaker 1: I want to learn, I want to soak this up.

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Speaker 1: Then people will pick up on that, and you do. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: then you're not even talked about controversial subjects that much

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Speaker 1: because it's just something you're passionate about. You're not talking

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Speaker 1: about it because it is a controversy. You're addressing it

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Speaker 1: because you're passionate about it, whether it's an argument or not.

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Speaker 1: You know, And then that's what's way easier than you know,

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Speaker 1: even me as a writer or a journalist, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a controversy, Well you need to address that now,

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Speaker 1: but like I don't really care about that thing, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: let me be passionate about what I'm talking about before

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Speaker 1: I dive into the next controversy, because that's the thing

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Speaker 1: that people are talking about today. Well it's hard because

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Speaker 1: you know, as as people who work in the outdoor

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Speaker 1: space but also the media and content space, you know,

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Speaker 1: you you realize that if you're writing a story, if

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Speaker 1: there's two stories, ones on grizzly bears and ones on

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Speaker 1: the female indigo, bunting. You know, like your indigo bunking

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Speaker 1: story is, there's been quite a few more clicks on

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Speaker 1: the grizzly bears story. I think you just gotta learn

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Speaker 1: how to you know, really write really sauce that. But

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Speaker 1: but what what we in the science world, we have

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Speaker 1: these things called umbrella species, So you can like bend

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Speaker 1: and compartmentalize these spaces with a totem species, say a

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Speaker 1: polar bear, grizzly bear or whatever. Something that's like attractive,

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Speaker 1: it catches the eye, and then you can you can

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Speaker 1: weave in all the underlying narratives that exist because that

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Speaker 1: realy bear habitat exists, for that grizzly bear population exists.

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Speaker 1: So there are ways I think to effectively, in in

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Speaker 1: a appropriate way bring the indigo bunting into the narrative

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Speaker 1: by saying, hey, it's you know, mountains don't just aren't

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Speaker 1: vending machines for elk. You know, mountains actually you know

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Speaker 1: our places where waters retained and where vegetation grow and

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Speaker 1: where forage and habitat exists, and where elk come from.

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Speaker 1: You know, a healthy elk are a function of a

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Speaker 1: healthy ecosystem, and that's where the indigo bunting also lives.

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Speaker 1: And then it's like, hadn't i'd get you there, folks,

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Speaker 1: But I got you there. I got you to the

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Speaker 1: bunting from the elk there every can look up the

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Speaker 1: indigo bunting three degrees of the indigo buns. Screw you, Kevin,

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Speaker 1: You're out now, So the outdoor world, you gotta get

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Speaker 1: to the bunting. Hashtag Indigo bunting. Um, yeah, we don't

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Speaker 1: have a hashtag for the podcast. Are continually trying to

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Speaker 1: find one. I think maybe Indigo bunting. Yeah, totally. It

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Speaker 1: might be the one, the Indigo bunting collective that could

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Speaker 1: be good. I'd be alive, would be like today's episode,

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Speaker 1: Tuesday's episode. Is indigo the real color of the bunding?

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Speaker 1: Nobody knows? Or is it a filter on Instagram? That's right,

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Speaker 1: it could be purple. We don't know. Um what. The

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Speaker 1: other thing that interested me in your perspective is you

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Speaker 1: do you feel like hunting or even hunting and the

421
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: outdoor space both call them both call them the people

422
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: that go outside world, hunting, fishing, outdoors whatever. Do you

423
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 1: feel like they lack leadership from a scientific perspective, like

424
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: there isn't there's leadership from like a I'm a hero,

425
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 1: I climb a thing or I on a thing. But

426
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of people that are leading from

427
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: a scientific pulpit. Yeah, you know, um or influencing the

428
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 1: leading is the wrong term, but you know, whatever proper

429
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: scientific influence on those people. Yeah, you know, it's a

430
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: challenging thing because I think at one point science and

431
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: exploration of science were valued at large in society. I mean,

432
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 1: back when we had von Humble and we had Darrowin

433
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: to a certain extent um, some of these people were

434
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 1: out creating, you know, creating the foundation for our scientific understanding,

435
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: and they were getting funded by kings and queens and

436
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: being invited to speak at places that were drawing being.

437
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: You know, they were the most powerful and influential people

438
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: in society there, you know, listening to their research. And

439
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: I think there was that kind of that all around

440
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: the work. And I think there was more trust, you know,

441
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: placed in the in the scientific space and community. And

442
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: I think fast forward two. You know, even Abraham Lincoln

443
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: protecting marapost to grow sixty four um hid the Civil War.

444
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: He protects marapost to growth because he hears its epic.

445
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: You know, there wasn't much science. It was more I've

446
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: seen this place that needs to be saved. Then we

447
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: have John Muir, you know, he comes at it from,

448
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: you know, a religious perspective, but one that I think

449
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: is rooted in reverence for the for the aesthetic, for

450
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: the glaciers, for the natural history. Um. He was like

451
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: a type of environmentalism totally, and and he did do

452
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: he did collect data. He was kind of passionate about

453
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: the glaciers. So I think there was an empirical kind

454
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: of science um driver but it was certainly religious and

455
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: theological as well. UM. So that you know, we fast

456
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,479
Speaker 1: forward and then it becomes you know, there's that that

457
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: religious lens. And then we move into the Teddy Roosevelt time,

458
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: where I think a lot of it was looked at

459
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: the resource. You know, what is there to extract? What

460
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: is there to save from over extraction? UM. Science certainly

461
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: helped inform all of that. You know, I think with

462
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: the dawn of the Force service, science became a bigger role,

463
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: conservation became a bigger role. People started thinking, you know,

464
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: how do we as managers fit into this equation? But

465
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: then today, you know, obviously I think that mindset of

466
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: management stewardship is still pervasive through our federal agencies and

467
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: state agencies as well. But we have such a robust

468
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: outdoor and hunting culture that I believed your point is

469
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: pretty detached from the on the ground scientists and some

470
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: of the key work. And it's not necessarily just the

471
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: outdoor and hunting community's fault. I think the scientific community

472
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: has done a pretty poor job of extending to hand

473
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: and marketers for marketers, and that's not their fault. I mean,

474
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: the currency and science is to create peer reviewed research

475
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: and to create data sets and to be you know,

476
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: there's this kind of like legacy of being insular and

477
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: coming from that space. Having spent most of my adult

478
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: life as a scientist, I remember going to those conferences

479
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: and sitting in on those lectures and those um you know,

480
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: different kind of gatherings of the minds, and it's like, Okay,

481
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: this is rad that we're all on the same page.

482
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: But everybody who's out there in the general public. Number

483
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: one isn't gonna understand we're talking about, isn't. It doesn't

484
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: have access to what we're publishing, and it's not being

485
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: written about or disseminated in a way that's at all digestible.

486
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: So that's partially the scientific communities fault. So I think

487
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: it's kind of this like big disconnect, and I think

488
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: the result is that you have an outdoor industry that's

489
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: largely standing on the pillars of physical accomplishment. I think

490
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 1: there is some conservations stewardship there, but I think generally

491
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: it's how badass can you be? Um, how extreme can

492
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: you be? And that's great. I mean that's a whole

493
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: different aspect of the narrative. Hunting industry is I think

494
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: a little bit more tapped in because to hunt, you

495
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: need wildlife, and for wildlife to exist, you need an

496
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: ecosystem that's functioning. I mean you could climb a mountain

497
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: a mountain kind of ye. I mean they have to

498
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: be the same. Like, I think we get lost in

499
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 1: our own decades long conservation story. We get lost in

500
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: the fact that we can look at African and be like, well,

501
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: they value wildlife because they're uh, they're worth money when

502
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: you hunt them. So that's the big argument there. But

503
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: we get lost in our own value system for wildlife.

504
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: It's kind of the same thing we get lost in

505
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: we value these animals because of the opportunities. We have

506
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: reverence for the opportunity to hunt them. That's why we

507
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: value them. We don't necessarily value them within the ecosystem

508
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: or as as a part of a grand landscape. We

509
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: value them for that opportunity. So our value system is

510
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: akin to Africa's. We've just kind of over a hundred

511
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: years or so, really reshaped what that looks like, what

512
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: that value system looks like. Yeah, and I think you

513
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: have maybe And I'm not an expert in Africa and

514
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: be either, I don't know that I am. I'd rather

515
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: avoid the subject up. I always try to like, so

516
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: it's a it's a continent, man, we don't talk about

517
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: North American hunting like let's let's slow down. Yeah, And

518
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: you know, I think you could probably argue that the landscape,

519
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: the social, political, ecological landscape is more dynamic there um,

520
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 1: which makes it even more challenging for people like us

521
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: who are laying to talk about or like can people say,

522
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: like hunting in Africa. I'm like, do you realize Egypt

523
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: isn't Egypt or South Africa? Yeah, You're like, you don't,

524
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: you don't be like Northwest territories or Mexico. These are confident.

525
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: These are the purest generalization of pure generalizations which happens

526
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: and I think it happens the honey world and the

527
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: anti or non hunting world, like hunting in Africa. Is

528
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: this or that, Let's maybe take it down totally. Yeah,

529
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: And I think you know, even the people like within hunting,

530
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, as an editor at Modern Huntsman, one of

531
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: the real treats has been too focus on this idea

532
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: that that hunters exist on a spectrum, just like politicians,

533
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: just like humans. And there's the best, and there's those

534
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: that could use some work, and there's a lot in

535
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: between who I think are open to being better. And

536
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: it's unfortunate when one person, whether it's a politician or

537
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: your neighbor or a guy who hunts in your in

538
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: your community, does something that's not ideal that paints sheds

539
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: a bad light on the broader collective. Isn't that a

540
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: tough That's a tough concept because I got into this

541
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,239
Speaker 1: podcast thinking that's what I'm going to talk about all

542
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: this time. But then the like just depressing man just

543
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: sucks and it and I always picture like a tug

544
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: of war, you know, we had a bunch of people

545
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: on one side of the rod tugging on that thing.

546
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: You can choose which side you want to be on,

547
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: and that little you know, that little ribbon that's gotta

548
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: go one side or the other. As far as how

549
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: is hunting perceived, I just want to be on the

550
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: side that's pulling towards good And as long as I'm

551
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: over there pulling, I don't really need to be pointing

552
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: out the people on the other side exactly for what

553
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: they're doing. As long as I'm pulling, at least, that's

554
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: my base level for that fight. If I'm pulling towards

555
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: a good I'm okay. If I see an opportunity to

556
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: talk to somebody on the other side and try to

557
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: convince him to come to my side, I'll do it.

558
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: But I don't need to be browbeating every person that

559
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: posts something that I don't like or yeah, and I

560
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: mean it's like when your mom calls you us here

561
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: a day going, You're not gonna sit and spend the

562
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: whole conversation tun or how like shitty your day was?

563
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: Like oh, you know, life's good, you know the baby

564
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: is good, you know whatever, Like it's it's I think

565
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: thinking positively and being drawn to the positive not only

566
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: makes your day better, but just helps you focus on

567
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: where we should be working to move the needle further.

568
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: Because you could spend every conversation you have in the

569
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: hunting world talking about people you do not like or

570
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: in the outdoor space on the same totally. But what's

571
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: the point Because as soon as you start doing that,

572
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: you quit pull them, You quit pulling that rope, and

573
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: you like have to stop the point to the other

574
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: side and you quit. Now you're not doing what you

575
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: set out to do. And to that point, let's just

576
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: keep pulling. Well, I think, you know, to your initial question,

577
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: Like the scientific space, in the scientific world, I think

578
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: is making some great progress. You know, I'm seeing a

579
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: lot of folks in the outdoor recreation space looking towards

580
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: science and conservation stewardship to inform the way that they

581
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: engage with their playgrounds, whether it's a mountain or a crag,

582
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: or a trail or a lake or a river. Um.

583
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: And then the hunting space, you know, one of the

584
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: really kind of exciting things is getting a chance to

585
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: work with sitkas and a conservation advisor and helping them

586
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: develop uh, you know, initiatives and kind of repackage content

587
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: and just take a closer look at some of these themes.

588
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: And I've met so many people in Bozeman in the

589
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: broader hunting space that you know, are sending me pure

590
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: view science papers that are solid and they're saying, hey, like,

591
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: this is what we're thinking should inform the way we

592
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: address this issue. And I think that's something that we

593
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: can do more of. And you know, we can look

594
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: to the people who are spending their entire career as

595
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: a field scientist, you know, like we can sit from afar,

596
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, looking at the world through our phone or

597
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: the internet or as a plane flying over. But within

598
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: every county in the country, there's a handful of scientists

599
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: who know that reality better than anybody. How much can

600
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: you learn from that person? Oh my god? Right, how

601
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: much can you learn from the guy who's trapping hogs

602
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma who's trying to eradicate him and you say, wow,

603
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: hunting hogs is good, and that guy stands up and like, listen,

604
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for fifteen years and it's not good, right,

605
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: Like WHOA, Okay, totally try to talk to you earlier. Yeah,

606
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: and that like his experience. You know, the hog situation

607
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma is very different the Hawgs sitition in California,

608
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: you know, And to say it's this or that, you know,

609
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: I think, like we've talked about already. You know, it's

610
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: so valuable to be like, well, this guy's experience, it's

611
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: his experience, and it's representative of this county or this

612
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: part of the state, and let's focus on that, you know,

613
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: let's tell that story because it's part of the story.

614
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: Here's one of the many. Yeah, there's one of the

615
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: many stories. Um. Yeah, sometimes you go to Texas topping

616
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: a helicopter and shoot a bunch of hogs. That's good.

617
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: It might not always be good. It probably always fun

618
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: for the people in the alicouter um. But that's a

619
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: hard thing, like you know, that visual for somebody who

620
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: isn't relatively informed on the topic. I think there's there's

621
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: that disconnect. And one of my wildlife professors at Berkeley

622
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: when I was an undergraduate um his name is Reginald Barrett.

623
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: He's a professor emeritus. Incredible guy studied under Luna Leopold

624
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: Um and he was hired by the Australian government to

625
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: come out and try to help him figure out how

626
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: to get rid of wild hogs. And they went up

627
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: with um the military and some high pride rifles and

628
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: thought about that gonna be a way to do it,

629
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: and it which wasn't cost effective because bolts are so expensive.

630
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: So I mean there, I think for folks who aren't

631
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: familiar with the hog situation, it is a a robust

632
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: population that has no checks, so there's no balance. And

633
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: death is death, and that's something that takes place. Whether

634
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: you eat a chicken or a piece of kale, or

635
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: you have a cotton shirt, things are dying. How do

636
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 1: you get that? Because that example, and I always say, hey,

637
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to get on a soapbox, but I

638
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: do want to examine that idea because it is an

639
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: important idea. I always don't, I find myself sometimes I

640
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: used to. I don't anymore because of the pulling of

641
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: the rope thing we talked about. I used to drink

642
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: whiskey and go online and fight with fight with vegans.

643
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: What was your handle on Twitter? Oh no, it's just

644
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: my hand. I used to go on to like the

645
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: vegan thing and like just but not argue, but just

646
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: try to talk sent you know, from the Bunting Official.

647
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, I'm a bird. I rever trying to

648
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 1: eat some seeds. Um. I would and I would argue

649
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: with these funs, and I always felt like that was

650
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: the one point that I needed them to understand that, Like,

651
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: you are a part of the cycle of consumption. You

652
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: were designed to consume. That is what we do. We

653
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 1: are an ant hill like fly over l a one time, mountains, mountains, mountains,

654
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: what's that thing that's humans? Like, that's the one thing

655
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: that always got me. And so how do you, like,

656
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: how do you talk to somebody about that idea? Like, Hey,

657
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: no matter what you do, you're you're doing being a

658
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: vegan or recycling or all these things that you're doing,

659
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: you're doing them for the right reasons. Totally agree with

660
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 1: you on what you're doing. But you're not off the hook.

661
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: Don't tell me you're off the hook. And don't tell

662
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: me that I'm on the hook, because I kill something

663
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: like how do you get that across somebody who's so

664
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: far down that ideological path? I'm not found. I could

665
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: walk anybody back far enough to get him to really

666
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: other than to maybe take them hunting or something like that.

667
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: Convince him to go hunting. I think you and I

668
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: had a conversation on our first podcast where we kind

669
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: of got to something that I've repeated out loud, which

670
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: I've got a little backlash, and it's it's just like

671
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: you're getting that. I mean, though, if we're talking about

672
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: net impact on an individual level, the worst thing we

673
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: ever did was be born. I mean, human population is

674
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: the number one. It seems like, you know, it's like

675
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: it's a rough thing. It's a it's a hard thing

676
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: to say, you know, but I think you can dissect

677
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: the vegan. You can dissect the rural farmer, or you

678
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: can dissect the inner city. You can dissect the affluent

679
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: and the hunter, the whatever. Everybody has an impact, whether

680
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: it's you know, like the palm oil in your makeup

681
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: or the sterial eating or the cotton shirt you're wearing,

682
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: or the deer you killed, or the car you drive

683
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: and the rubber that's on the wheels. It's gnarmally, I mean,

684
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: everything has an impact. So I think one the people

685
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: on either side of the spectrum isn't really like the focus.

686
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: I like to focus on the middle ground, where there's

687
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: people who have open ears and open mind and are

688
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 1: are open to the idea of considering something else, and

689
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: with that you kind of avoid the conflict to be

690
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: the either end of the spectrum. And I think there's

691
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: a lot of room to say, Okay, well, we are here,

692
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: We're blessed with these resources, with the time, with a voice,

693
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: with a platform. Let's try to do our best, you know,

694
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: Let's try to make the antiprisyne like the epic that

695
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: the world is currently in, a better epic, you know,

696
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: like that hashtag into good bunting. Uh yeah, man, but

697
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: there's hope. I mean, watch the Jane Goodolf film, you know, Jane, Like,

698
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: watch that and tell me that somebody can't be born

699
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: onto this planet and do good, you know, because she's

700
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: somebody who's doing incredible work, inspiring countless young people to

701
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: carry about the natural world. And Jane good On I

702
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: disagree on a lot of shit. She hates hunting, but

703
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: I still I still can respect that mindset because I

704
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: think it's way closer to my mindset than most other

705
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: folks out there. It's like this this extreme caring and

706
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: the other the other point. I think it is important

707
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: to me because a lot of the things we're talking

708
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: about hogs, for example, farrell hawks wherever they may be

709
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: in this in this country, and we put them. Oh really,

710
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: they're delicious and there's a lot of them out We

711
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: put them here, and so we created a problem. We're

712
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: fixing a problem that happens a lot in as you

713
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 1: well know, and in the in the conservation space and

714
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: in the space that we live. And we're we're fixing

715
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: a problem that we caused, and then lauding are fixing

716
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: the problem that we cause with like a lack of

717
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 1: perspective of it. What's exactly going on there? Right? Um?

718
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,919
Speaker 1: I think that happens a lot in the environmental world

719
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: and a lot in the hunting consumptive space too. I mean,

720
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: you're like, we killed all the elk? Were we sit there?

721
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: What are they back in? Like ten or ten to

722
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: twelve percent of their native range? Positive? That's close. We

723
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: did that? Yeah, yeah, and we did. We killed them all.

724
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: Not me and you, not are even you know, not

725
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: even our grandparents, grandparents, but we humans were a part

726
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: of that. You know. So what is the thing that

727
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: we are doing right now? At decades from now, folks

728
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: will look back at be like, I can't believe you

729
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 1: did that? Yeah. I think that's a good point, because,

730
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: you know, I just returned from a week long trip

731
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: in Nevada shooting a film with Phil Baraboo, who had

732
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: made Charge Brandon and Ben Masters, who's legend you know,

733
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: you'll know um. And during that trip and after the trip,

734
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 1: we've been getting feedback from people saying like, oh, well,

735
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: this is a this is a horse problem, this is

736
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: a cattle problem, or this is a Pieta problem or

737
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: an activist problem, and it's a lot of Jule's problems.

738
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: And what I think a lot of folks forget is

739
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: that the today exists because of two hundred years of

740
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: human impact. And horses are here, Yes, they were brought

741
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: to you by the Spanish. There's a legacy of overgrazing,

742
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: there's a legacy of resource extraction, there's a legacy of

743
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: heavy handed use by humans. You compound all of those

744
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: things mining, you know, pioneering, like all of these impacts

745
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: you've had in the natural world, coupled with climate changes, drought, fire,

746
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: all these things that are changing the landscape, and then

747
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: you have today. So for people to be like, oh,

748
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: it's a horse problem, it's like, well, it's kind of

749
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: their problem. They're also just like kind of all the

750
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: animals trying to survive and they're just eating man trying

751
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: to find water. Yeah, and then you know, oh, it's

752
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: a cattle problems, like well, there's a lot of people

753
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: who are running cattle in a much better way than

754
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: they ran him in eighteen hundreds, so you know, it's

755
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: not really totally their problem. There's like a legacy issue,

756
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, Oh, it's the miner's problems, like well, there

757
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: are regulations in place for mining, and that's something that's

758
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: informed by the way we vote and people vote for

759
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, oh, well, it's you know, a

760
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: climate problems, like well, a lot of people, a lot

761
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: of the best science in the world would say that,

762
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: like our impacts on Earth are changing the climate. So

763
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: it's kind of like a historical people problem, you know.

764
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: And it's like you read all those all that molution

765
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: of piece of paper and it's just not conducive to

766
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: the headline. You know. Yeah, ship's complicated. Yeah. I feel

767
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: like every time I waited into a situation that I'm like, damn,

768
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: this is like way complicated. Yeah. That's again why I

769
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: like being able to continue to have conversations and then

770
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: change your mind, and I get called out for change

771
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: in your mind because you know something today that you

772
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: didn't know. Like, we're essentially organisms that are just growing

773
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: and changing and molding all the time. When I had

774
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: a kid, immediately was a different person. To sell all

775
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: your PlayStations, Yeah, well no, he'll get those. Yeah, you

776
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: get a kid, You're like, oh my god, now I'm

777
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: a different person. Right. I didn't do that. I didn't

778
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: like wake up and be like, I'm gonna do this

779
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: different this if you just wake up and you think differently,

780
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: because now there's this thing over here, this human that

781
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: you gotta take care of, You've gotta do things differently.

782
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: You can't function the way you used to function. And

783
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: so people change all the time, and too, you know

784
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: you should respect that change. And in our environment changes

785
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: because of us, and so you must look at it

786
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: the same way. Like when we invent the flying car,

787
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: I think we might have already been that. You think

788
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: we are invented. You think somebody in California has a

789
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: flying car prototype that that fucking works. Elon Musk surely

790
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: has a flying car. I mean, I am one of

791
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: the biggest NERD advocates out there, and I would bank

792
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: that some nerd has something hidden away. There's some motherfucker

793
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: out there flying around, Like what's that. It's not a

794
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: flying car. I'll tell you that right now. It's or something. Yeah,

795
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: well there was a really cool I'm not sure it

796
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: was on a Vice or my brother who's like a

797
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: total nerd, showing me this. Um it's this kid. So

798
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 1: there's like self driving cars, like you know, um Tesla

799
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: has some of the best technology out there. This film,

800
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: I think it's like it's on YouTube. I want to say,

801
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: but this kid, just like some twenty something year old nerd,

802
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 1: goes in a garage and with like a hundred twenty

803
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: dollars with the computer parts, makes an autonomous vehicle. It's

804
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: like this old civic. It's like a total piece of ship.

805
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: But the thing drives, it learns. So he has this

806
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: like model, this program he's developed where this car is

807
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: learning as he's nudging it through traffic and letting experience

808
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: different types of road conditions. And this correspondent, I want

809
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: to say it for a Vice, it is like holy shit,

810
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: like you feel like you figured it out in your garage. Yeah,

811
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: so I have to imagine somebody's flying a car somewhere, man,

812
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: because the Jetsons was a long time, like twenty years ago,

813
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: wasn't totally. Yeah, they had the jets inside of flying cars,

814
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 1: so that was why t K. Yeah. My dad's like,

815
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: all right, why two K, we have six cans of soup,

816
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 1: four water bottles, and some bread. I was like, sick,

817
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna live. We're gonna make soup and toast sandwiches,

818
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: dumper in the toast. Yeah, why t K. That was

819
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: the dumbest things. I don't even remember chairing. I was

820
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: just like whatever, fine. I was like, I still can't

821
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 1: alle on my skateboard. Yeah, man, don't take away my

822
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 1: my baseball bat, my glove. Yeah. I don't know where

823
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: I was going with any of that, but I will say,

824
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: if anybody knows anybody that has a flying car, I'd

825
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: like to get him on the podcast, just talk about it.

826
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 1: Mostly for hunting purposes. Yeah, mostly for hunting purpose because

827
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's quiet. Ye. Addendum, anyone who has a

828
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: quiet flying car solar powered, solar powered, Yeah, no, it

829
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: doesn't affect the environ, but nine recycled wheels, yes, please

830
00:44:58,280 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: please call in. I know we don't have a car,

831
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. We don't have a way to call in,

832
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: but just call in anyway. Um, you think we would

833
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: ever have a call in podcast where like people could

834
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: call in beneficial I think it would be cool, but

835
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: I think you might get some like rogue colors. You know,

836
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: you're like deep, It's like, well, John from South Dakota,

837
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: We're sorry, we're not gonna have high. This is indigo

838
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: bunting and committing suicide not listening to your boring because

839
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: you're boring. Um, back to the regular conversation. Do you

840
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: do you believe that with that middle ground person who

841
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: you're trying to just be like, Look, you impact the world.

842
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: You might not have the mental bandwidth, not that you're

843
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: not a smart person, but you might not just not

844
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: have enough space in your day because you're like you

845
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: had a kid. Care for the human, get the human along,

846
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: make sure that human gets what it needs to live,

847
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: and then also get smarter and better. Um for society.

848
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: You just don't have the time to do all the

849
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: research about all the things and be informed on all

850
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: the things. But here a few things you can do

851
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: to make the world better and understand your impact. I mean,

852
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: there are the things that you can think of. Is

853
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: that too broader question? I know we say like recycled,

854
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: do this, do that, But are there more specific things

855
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: going outside that you'd be like, Man, here's your impact.

856
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: Understand your total impact sucks. You're a part of an

857
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: organism that is eating this earth alive. Um, But here's

858
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: how you can protect the epic, Like, here's how you

859
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: can make it better. Yeah, yeah, you know. I think

860
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: one thing that comes to mind is, uh, college graduation.

861
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 1: The dialomma comes to DUC Berkeley and gives a talk

862
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: and he sits on his little Uh did you just

863
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: name drop the Dolly past the first Rate Act? Okay,

864
00:46:54,960 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: the California colleges, And though he's sitting up there and uh,

865
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: you know, he says some some really poignant things. One

866
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: of them is that one of the keys that has

867
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: influenced what he perceives the world is to always remain

868
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: the student. The second you identify as the professor and

869
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: you lose the opportunity to learn. And I think that

870
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: translates to the idea of looking at the world and

871
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: looking at the complexities and all this crazy things that

872
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: are happening from a place of curiosity and realizing that

873
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: there are people who are experiencing the world in different ways,

874
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 1: seeing it through different lens, and that through questions and listening,

875
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: you individually in your backyard, in your community can have

876
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: a better understanding of how you fit into the broader

877
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 1: global dynamic, but also how you can improve yourself. Maybe

878
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: you're interested in organic farming, maybe you're interested in bow hunting,

879
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: maybe you're interested in flying cars. Like, through your pursuit

880
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: of doing whatever you love the best way possible, you

881
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: can reduce your impact and do what's feasible for you

882
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: financial really physically, given the resources you have or don't have.

883
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody is has a different situation, and I

884
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 1: think just looking at the complexities of the world by

885
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: saying like how can I improve and what questions can

886
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 1: I ask to give me a better worldview? I think

887
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: will help. That's a great one. I always be a student.

888
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: That is something I need to go reapply to some

889
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: conversations a couple of weeks. Then after it was so

890
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: funny because after he says that, and you know, everybody's like,

891
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 1: oh man, that was so impass Yes. So some kid

892
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: raised his hand. It was like the last question and

893
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, could could you give our class like

894
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 1: any partying wisdom. And he sits there and he kind

895
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 1: of does this a little like wiggle and he looks

896
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: at us and starts laughing. He's like, yeah, good luck.

897
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: And I think that's I think that's a a pretty

898
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: solid um bit of advice too, because I think a

899
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of kind of your impact and

900
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: your life experiences comes from having good luck, but also

901
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: been open to the luck that you have. Because a

902
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: lot of people go the world with their eyes closed.

903
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 1: I think there's so much to be said for going

904
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: through the world with your eyes open, seeing those doors

905
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: that might be presented to you, seeing those people who

906
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: might be there to help you, or to collaborate with you,

907
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: or to corroborate with you. Um. And I think just

908
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: having that openness is huge as well, because it's when

909
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: people will get on that island and they put their

910
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: blinders on and they put their head down and they

911
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: just dig their heels, and it's where you don't get

912
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: a lot of progress. Yeah, that's a good point. Um.

913
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: The Dia Lama hum Man, he's a legend. I always wondered, like,

914
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: does the dialama just like go to Taco bell? Probably

915
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, i'd like to know. I feel

916
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 1: like he's just like a normal guy. Yeah. Does he

917
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,959
Speaker 1: have vices? Though? The dollar Alama because that's a smart

918
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: always be a students about it's a smart thing. And

919
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: he's become the Dialama based on all the smart things

920
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: he says. I wonder if he just like I'd love

921
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: a burrito. After that speech just goes down. Yeah, you know,

922
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. Probably I feel like he's just as

923
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: human as anybody else. Probably that's true. Well, it's good.

924
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: I'm glad the dial Aama got in on the conversation today. Yeah,

925
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 1: is that that's the first for the podcast. I don't know.

926
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: Maybe I did have Shane Mahoney and he's kind of

927
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: like a bit of a diali Alama, like a Canadian

928
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 1: dial Alama. Well, right next door to Tibet we have Bhutan,

929
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,479
Speaker 1: which is pretty cool. It's the kingdom. That's the entire

930
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: kingdom is a wildlife sanctuary, is it? Yeah? Because who

931
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: went over there? Now, Oliver White, there's a big time

932
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:34,959
Speaker 1: fly fisherman went over fish there for a YETI film,

933
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: I think so with Ben Knight and Travis Romila. I believe.

934
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: So maybe we'll get to know more about that the

935
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: film when it comes out. But um, that's good to know.

936
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: That tell me more you how much you know about

937
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: that place. I know one other thing. Instead of GDP

938
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: Gross Domestic Productivity, they have g d H Gross Domestic happiness.

939
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: That's their metric for success or progress. Wow, alright, let's

940
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 1: look into that. How do they measure how opinions you feel?

941
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: Probably a simple survey survey monkey or something, so, I

942
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like that thing on Instagram stories where

943
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: you can put the hard eyes at one level. I

944
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: do that sometimes and then you know, it'll make a

945
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: picture of Rachel my fiance, and I'll like swipe to

946
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: the far right because it's like the most and then

947
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: I look at him like, did I think I only

948
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 1: personally voted on that? Well? Then maybe like you accidentally

949
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: let your finger off too early and it goes it

950
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: goes halfway angel, So I'm just like really, And then

951
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: you get that text, Yeah, you're like halfway hard eyes, asshole,

952
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: fool way hard eyes. Every time that's wrong with you.

953
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: We're getting married. I don't love me. Um dial Llama

954
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: will switch so wild horses. Yeah, I'm gonna make the

955
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: transition from the Dali Lama wild horses, wild horse first

956
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: time ever on Earth probably, and we're actually looking at

957
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:53,919
Speaker 1: some horses that are not wild in your backyard there. Yeah, Um,

958
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: there's the transition. Bam. Perfect. So you went to Nevada

959
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: correct with that pretty impressive group of filmmakers, um to

960
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: take a look at the wild horse issue and then

961
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 1: make a make a film on it. What did you find? Yeah?

962
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 1: I think, Um, first of all, like the kind of

963
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: genesis of the project was pretty pretty awesome. You know,

964
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: we had over a dozen different state, local, and federal

965
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: agencies come together and basically proposed the idea of us

966
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: making a film, and it was really I think that

967
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: was set us off on a great trajectory because we

968
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: had so many people from so many organizations, with so

969
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: many interests and stakeholders, with a singular focus on like

970
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: let's let's present the story in an authentic, accurate light

971
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: the film. What we didn't set out to answer all

972
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 1: the questions. You know, people have spent their entire career

973
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: trying to trying to answer some of these questions that

974
00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: are just complicated. But instead of the tension behind the

975
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 1: film was can you guys go out there can you

976
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: embed yourselves with experts, folks with decades of experience, can

977
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: you learn about their their reality, and can you digest

978
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: those vignettes into an overarching message. What is the state

979
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: of wild horses on public lands in America? And what

980
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: are some of the things we can do to push

981
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,720
Speaker 1: the needle in a path of stewardship of sustainability, Because

982
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: right now the wild horse issue is it's shitty. The

983
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: wild horses aren't winning the ecosystem. Certainly they're not winning. Um.

984
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: We have a pretty divided group of people who are

985
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: quote unquote air quotes four horses and against There's a

986
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: lot of people in the middle who I know are

987
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: eager to learn more. So we kind of came at

988
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: it from that space in the middle, which is like,

989
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: let's just learn as much as we can. Let's present

990
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: what we've learned earned and pose some hopefully provocative questions

991
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: UM that folks can listen to and and explore in

992
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: their own time and through their own means. That's interesting.

993
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: How pervasive is the what's the population of wild horses

994
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: in Nevada? Do they know? They do? You know? Nevada

995
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 1: has the most wild horses in the country. Um, they're

996
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,399
Speaker 1: wild horses and burrows generally get generally get clumped together. Um,

997
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: there's well over eighty thousand wild horses north America. The

998
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: exact number in Nevada, I'm not I'm not on um,

999
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: but there are fifty five thousand excess wild horses and burros.

1000
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: So what what the what the federal government has done

1001
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: is they've looked at public lands in America and they've said, Okay,

1002
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: given the resources that these public lands offer forage and

1003
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: water primarily, we believe that the public lands in America

1004
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: can sustain at this point a little over twenty six

1005
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: thousand wild horses and burrows. So then you know, they

1006
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: send out their researchers and their their crews to do

1007
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: surveys and they say, you know, to the best of

1008
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: our knowledge, how many wild horses are there? At last count,

1009
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: there are fifty more than the landscape can sustain. So

1010
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: that might not that's just like a number for a

1011
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: lot of people. I think what people sometimes forget, and

1012
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: I think what kind of gets missed is that if

1013
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: you're a horse that needs to drink, you know, eight

1014
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: gallons of water a day, maybe more of it's hotter

1015
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 1: and needs, uh, you know a ton of forage as well.

1016
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: The land can only support so many horses. Then you

1017
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: have native wildlife, you have cattle, and you have limited water,

1018
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 1: limited forage. UM, it's a complicated situation. The kind of

1019
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: the main thing that I think we learned is that

1020
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: there's a platform to manage wildlife. We have sage grouse

1021
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: biologists who can go and study a meadow system and

1022
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: say this meadow system is critical for the stability and

1023
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: preservation of this population, and we need to maintain the meadow.

1024
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: So we're going we're going to um, We're gonna tell

1025
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: the We're gonna suggest that the blm ask the permancy

1026
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: the cattle grazer that cat the operator to put his

1027
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: cattle on the meadow in late summer when the stage

1028
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 1: grous have been able to use it to rear their chicks,

1029
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: when the flowers have been able to bloom, and the

1030
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: pollinator has been able to use it, when it's at

1031
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,720
Speaker 1: a less sensitive state. And in many cases the operator

1032
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: will be like, Okay, I'll put my cattle in in July.

1033
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: We'll scratch the edge of the stage grous. Biologists will

1034
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: help maintain the ecosystem. We'll run our cattle through there

1035
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: because cattle need forward, especially at the end of the summer,

1036
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: and that's a win win. There's there's a platform for

1037
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: the wildlife managers to work with the federal government and

1038
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: state agencies, and there's a platform for cattle operators do

1039
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: the same thing. Certainly, there are examples where the wildlife

1040
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: are losing for a very variety of reasons. Maybe it's

1041
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: historical overgrazing, maybe's strout, maybe it's fire. I mean, it's

1042
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: a five hundred thousand acre fire in Nevada that's burning

1043
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 1: or worth burning, biggest in the country, destroying safe grouse

1044
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: habitat and safe grouse communities. So there's there's a platform there.

1045
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 1: If there are too many deer, too many hogs, too

1046
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 1: many elk, not enough, there is a platform and a

1047
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: structure for folks to work together and say, like, here's

1048
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: the platform we're working within, let's accomplish this goal or

1049
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 1: work towards this goal. Cattle, there is a structure and

1050
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: a platform for operators, permitees, and also um other stakeholders

1051
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: to have input in the way cattle are grays in

1052
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: public lands. There are certainly operators and cattle that are

1053
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 1: grays in a I would say, a very mindful, sensitive way.

1054
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: And there's other situations that I think could use some work.

1055
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: Wild Horses they're the wild card. There is some structure,

1056
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: but through litigation from in many cases folks whould identifies

1057
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 1: like wild horse activists. Ah, the tools and the blms

1058
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: in the National Force Service toolbox have been limited, um

1059
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons. But nonetheless there's some structure,

1060
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: but there are not many available tools and or resources

1061
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: to implement change. So a lot of these So for

1062
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: those those tools in the toolbox and the people that

1063
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: are limiting then on my guess, because this happens in

1064
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: a lot of with a lot of different charismatic creatures, predators,

1065
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: mostly anti I guess that we would just say animal

1066
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: rights activists are saying, don't kill them in this way,

1067
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: don't treat him in this way, right, and the biologists like, well,

1068
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: if we do this, you know, if we kill him

1069
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: out of helicopters, we can save the whole population. Or

1070
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 1: if we do this, do this, and then animal rights

1071
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: axes like do not, We're gonna put legislation out there

1072
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: too to ban acts. I don't know what those those

1073
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: tools are, is that or not even to ban but

1074
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: just it's just you know, being sued takes a lot

1075
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: of time. Like I was talking to these biologists who

1076
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,479
Speaker 1: You'll spend fifteen years working on something, you get sued

1077
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: and then it's just everything's paused for like maybe years.

1078
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: So it's so litigation is a tool to stall. The

1079
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: outcome can be years down the road, but it's been

1080
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: an efficient it's been an effective tool to just stall things.

1081
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: So what do they specifically do you know what they're

1082
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: specifically suing. Yeah, I mean, you know there have been

1083
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: lawsuits around roundups being in humane UM A lot of

1084
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: times roundups Contemporary roundups include a tv s, four wheelers, helicopters,

1085
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: UM getting those getting those overpopulated populations into corrals and

1086
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 1: then they can be transferred to holding facilities for their

1087
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: quarantine and given shots and um you know, castrated and

1088
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: you know basically prepared for adoption. That can be a

1089
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: challenging process for the health and well being of animals.

1090
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,959
Speaker 1: You know, it's a stressful thing. UM. There has been

1091
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: litigation that has prevented the research on Spain and uterine

1092
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: animals UM surgically. Uh, it's been coined as UM in

1093
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: humane UM. Right, now one of the things that people

1094
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: some people are excited about. It's called PCP, which is

1095
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: basically makes a mayor infertile for a little less than

1096
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: a year. UM. There's a lot of people who say

1097
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: that's the way to do it, the way to to

1098
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: stifle the growth of these populations. That's completely naive. Um.

1099
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: There are certain small, non representative cases where individuals who

1100
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: are familiar with a herd that are herd that doesn't

1101
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: freak out from humans, which I've spent quite a bit

1102
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: of time like that was not my first time to Nevada,

1103
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: that was not definitely not my first time with wild horses.

1104
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: To get within the range of a dart gun to

1105
01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: shoot a mayor, I've never I've maybe in one occasion

1106
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: I've been that close to wild horse. So it's just

1107
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: not feasible, time intensive, more volunteer. But you gotta get

1108
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: them trained, and there's got to be all these checks

1109
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: and balances to make sure it's done well, and you

1110
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,439
Speaker 1: need to have a protocol, and you need to have

1111
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: consistent data collection, and that mayor needs to be identifiable,

1112
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: that mayor needs to be darted in the year, that

1113
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: mayor won't carry a full but she'll keep continue to

1114
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: go into heat and the estres so that mayor will

1115
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: be bread and bread and bread, but will never carry

1116
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: a full That doesn't sound very fun. So that's so

1117
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: there's the PCP, there's a sterilization, there's the roundups, and

1118
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: then there are the harsh realities that the holding facilities

1119
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 1: were these animals are rounded up and put to await

1120
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: adoption or to await a life and dirt parking lot

1121
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: are full. Uh, we're very close to full, so that

1122
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: we don't even have capacity to take in more horses.

1123
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: We don't have The BLM doesn't have capacity to round

1124
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: up more horses because most of their funding is going

1125
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: to feeding these horses that are in captivity per horse,

1126
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 1: per per lifetime, and that's to feed them alfalfa and hay.

1127
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: And for anybody out there, he's ever looked at the

1128
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: amount of water that goes into buy one horse? Get everybody,

1129
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah you have a half acre, and yeah, you can

1130
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: do it, buy a horse and see what that costs.

1131
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 1: And yeah, and you know, it costs a lot for

1132
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 1: the government to feed these horses. It costs a lot

1133
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: to just holding them. You know, taking on a horse

1134
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 1: project is something that a lot of people don't have

1135
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: the time or money to do well. Also, to that point,

1136
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: you know, if you're this far along in this story

1137
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: and you're not really sure to like, why do I care?

1138
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: I'm a hunter guy. Cost who's paying for that? Where's

1139
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: that money coming from? And where are the land? What

1140
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: are the lands that this is happening on. I think

1141
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: that that ties back to totally. I mean, the cost

1142
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 1: of the ecosystem is tremendous. And again, it's not just

1143
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: the horse's fault, like there are these historical legacies of

1144
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 1: overgrazing or just humans not being supermindful about the ecosystem's

1145
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: health and well being. But the fact of the matter

1146
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 1: is you have places that maybe we're kind of hammered,

1147
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: that are just getting hammered by these horses. The horses

1148
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: aren't winning, they're eating themselves. At the house at house,

1149
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: at home, there's horses. Two horses died this year in

1150
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: Arizona because of a lack of water and resources. Um

1151
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 1: so if you love horses, you should you know, that

1152
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: should be an alarm bell flat do you uh are

1153
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:32,919
Speaker 1: you talking about? Like, so there's fifties, five thousands. Are

1154
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: these populations all were they wild originally. How much of

1155
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: this is a native population are they? Is any of them?

1156
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 1: Is there a native range known for the wild horse

1157
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 1: or is it all just essentially escaped, kicked their saddle

1158
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: off and run for the hills. Yeah, yeah, no, it's

1159
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: a great question. Um, horses won't extinct twelve years ago

1160
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: around then, back when we lost the American cheetah um

1161
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: and other species. So they existed at one point North

1162
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: America's history. But they are here because they were introduced

1163
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: by humans. So they are in my opinion, and by

1164
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 1: definition I would say feral livestock. Um they have. We

1165
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: have the Wild Horse in Borough Treaty Act, which federally

1166
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: protects them. Um. So that's I think some of the complicated.

1167
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 1: That adds a level of complexity to the situation. But

1168
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: to your point, if you're listening, you're a hunter and

1169
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 1: you're saying, why do I care about wild horses, we

1170
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: should care about wild horses because wild horses are on

1171
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: virtually all of our public land, and wild horses require

1172
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 1: a lot of food and water. They are competitive. They

1173
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: will exclude prong horn from drinking. They will compete with

1174
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 1: other wildlife or forage. A mule deer mule deer won't

1175
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: go in the same area that an elk is in.

1176
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: I's a bunch of wild horses move into an area

1177
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: mule deer. I mean we we spent a week out

1178
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:51,959
Speaker 1: there and didn't see We saw mulder in places where

1179
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:56,959
Speaker 1: no horses. We were filming sage grouse in meadows where

1180
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 1: the sun came up and the stage grousts flew in

1181
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: to feed with their chicks. The chicks in the and

1182
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: the hens walked in. But I mean we had multiple

1183
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: like day old, multiple day old, uh, mule deer just

1184
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: bedded down and waste. I mean some of the most

1185
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: beautiful country I've ever seen in my life. Or these

1186
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: meadow aces in the middle of the stage brush Sea

1187
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: and Nevada like like five hours from town, you know,

1188
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: and the sun comes up and there's just little mule

1189
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: deer popping out. And the reason why that ecosystem is

1190
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 1: the way it is is vibrant and healthy is because

1191
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: it's been Uh there's a fence round and so horses

1192
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 1: can't just hammer it because they would. And we went

1193
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,479
Speaker 1: to meadows, you know, a few miles away that didn't

1194
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 1: have fences, and we're just basically dirt parking lots. Yeah,

1195
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 1: and so we love horses. I think horses of the place.

1196
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 1: I some of my best most memorable wildlife moments are

1197
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: sitting out there at water holes in the desert and

1198
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: watching two horses come galloping up to I mean, it's crazy.

1199
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 1: They're beautiful animals. You know. My best times in the

1200
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 1: saddle have been on the backs of mustangs. Um. I've

1201
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: written Ben's Mustangs from into a bunch of the good horses.

1202
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: They sure footed, they work hard, they're you know, pretty smart,

1203
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: pretty savvy. Um. I think there's a lot of people

1204
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 1: who would say mustanger as good as any other horse. Yeah,

1205
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: we love horses. Horses are great. But at the same time,

1206
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 1: do you imagine this is a more emotional, more reflective

1207
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 1: of the emotional appeal of like animal lovers versus at

1208
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: this point, pragmaticians who are just trying to manage an

1209
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: entire ecosystem over hey, saves grass. I know they're not

1210
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 1: so beautiful to you. They are actually, yeah, they're cool.

1211
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 1: They're really cool, but they're not so charismatic to you. Right,

1212
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 1: they're not in movies. But they're important too, and by

1213
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: you may not know it, or you might know it.

1214
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 1: But by trying to protect these horses, but by trying

1215
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: to overlove these horses like you're loving other things to death. Um,

1216
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: that's a problem that that every hunter should understand and

1217
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 1: should be aware of. But I just think this is

1218
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 1: a compelling example of the problems that we will face.

1219
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 1: And from a from a purely monetary standpoint, would I'd

1220
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 1: be wrong to say, like this is akin a bit

1221
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: to fire borrowing, where when there's a fire, and in

1222
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: the in the most recent omnimous package that was passed

1223
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: our government, the spending package, they said you can no

1224
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: longer states or federal government can no longer borrow from

1225
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: wildlife managers pockets take from their pockets money to to

1226
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 1: fight fires. Because that was happening, it's called fire borrowing.

1227
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 1: Is this similar to that where you'd be like, hey,

1228
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: we've got to manage these populations, We're gonna take from

1229
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: the coffer of the wildlife state wildlife managers bias would

1230
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: take money from their confer and put it into this

1231
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: or at least it competes with other priorities, totally competes

1232
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: with Elka, Compea or whatever. From a from a purely

1233
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 1: monetary standpoint, absolutely and you know, and and we were

1234
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 1: with biologists. We were with a little hot and cut

1235
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: throat trout biologist who is sitting there and saying, yeah,

1236
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 1: you know, like I can come to my creak that's

1237
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: been hammered by horses and put together a plan to

1238
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 1: restore it, but my hands are tied and that that

1239
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: opinion that research will never be employed until there's adequate

1240
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 1: funding to deal with the horse issue. So you have

1241
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: you have we have wildlife money that's been put into

1242
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 1: wildlife departments pockets to protect game species, non game species

1243
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 1: and habitat. They can do the best job that they

1244
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 1: could ever dream of. But you have this this tide

1245
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 1: of wild horses that are they're stifling their progress. They're

1246
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 1: they're turning potential habitat for California big horn or muldear

1247
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:52,719
Speaker 1: or prong horn into over grazed deserts. And that's simply

1248
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 1: because there's that disconnect. There's that inability for the federal

1249
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: government to address the horse issue, and there's a lack

1250
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,560
Speaker 1: of funding that's tied up with feeding horses in captivity

1251
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 1: to actually implement the change. The there's litigation, but there's

1252
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: also that that fiscal hurdle so I definitely think you have.

1253
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: In weeks we saw this. You have these biologists who

1254
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 1: are so passionate about their species, their non game, their

1255
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 1: game species, and they see what needs to be done

1256
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 1: and they literally can't do it. I mean we had

1257
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 1: I'm not going to name names, but a biologist who

1258
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 1: was the one of the head game biologists for Nevada

1259
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: career was spent working with game species UM and some

1260
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 1: of the most beautiful, rugged country in Nevada. He cried

1261
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 1: on interview with us because he was so frustrated and

1262
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:48,640
Speaker 1: embarrassed and disappointed that he would spend his entire professional

1263
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 1: career on a topic that got worse on his watch.

1264
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: We interviewed a guy one of the head Horse in

1265
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 1: Burrow program supervisors for the BLM, who spent his entire

1266
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: career forty plus years working for the federal government in

1267
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 1: d C and in Nevada working on public lands and

1268
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 1: the wild horse issue. And he sat there and he

1269
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: said he was embarrassed and disappointed that on his watch

1270
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: the program didn't get better. He did have some positive

1271
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: remarks about UM collaborative efforts being developed and communities coming

1272
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,799
Speaker 1: together to work towards the common goal, but in terms

1273
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:34,880
Speaker 1: of quantifiable winds, the situation has undeniably gotten worse. So

1274
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: I think, like you're saying, it's a it's a money problem.

1275
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 1: You know, we're taking money out of the pockets of

1276
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: people doing trying to do the best work they can

1277
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 1: to protect our wildlife, our native ecosystems, um and it's

1278
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:51,480
Speaker 1: just kind of like the ship show of the political system,

1279
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:54,599
Speaker 1: litigation and a lack of resources. And at this point

1280
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: adoption rates, everything we're doing to manage wild horses doesn't

1281
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:03,120
Speaker 1: come close to dealing the reproductive rates. Yeah, what is it?

1282
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 1: What's the gestation on a full well? Every every four

1283
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: years populations are doubling. Yeah, it's insane. That's insane. Animal.

1284
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 1: I think about like the way that we think of

1285
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,600
Speaker 1: and how like our value systems might help correct this

1286
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 1: or make it worse. I don't know, but like when

1287
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 1: we take the gloves off on an animal, for instance,

1288
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: for instance, the coyote in Wyoming, they'll pay you fifty

1289
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 1: bucks whack of coyote or hogs we take the gloves off.

1290
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 1: One is hunters. I think most hunters like whoa gloves off, dude?

1291
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 1: Not kill they? And sometimes I feel like that it's

1292
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 1: like it's fun if if it's not, you know, it's

1293
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:47,639
Speaker 1: part of Hey, I can go out and kill ten

1294
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: hogs and it doesn't matter how I do it, and

1295
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 1: that's that meets good. The experience is good. Oh man,

1296
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 1: it's shooting practice. Right. We've taken the gloves off those animals.

1297
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if interviewed somebody in the same position

1298
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: as those people that are working on the horse program

1299
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,679
Speaker 1: and said, hey, they're taking the gloves off. Doo much

1300
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,679
Speaker 1: from a hunting standpoint, he took the gloves off. There's

1301
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:12,839
Speaker 1: coyoties in every state. They live in swamps and planes,

1302
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 1: they live in mountains, they live everywhere. Every ecosystem has

1303
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 1: a chived. So like just taking the gloves off his

1304
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 1: hunters really do anything. And the same with a horse,

1305
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: just taking the gloves off and saying like, hey, you're

1306
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:28,679
Speaker 1: in public lange you see a horse crack it shooting

1307
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 1: the head the only I mean, if you want whatever, fine,

1308
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: let's take picture of pretty. I know it's crude way

1309
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 1: to say it and probably just structful that animal, but

1310
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: you might get a few email Listen, I've never killed

1311
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:48,720
Speaker 1: a horse. I'd probably eat one. I bunting, Uh, I

1312
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: just wonder as the toolbox. I mean, they have a

1313
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 1: certain toolbox that's not working. Hunters our tool themselves. So

1314
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 1: I want to or how that could be done. It

1315
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: would never be tolerated in this country for people to

1316
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 1: just be walking around killing horses. Well this year, you

1317
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: tell me this could be another emails. I'm pretty sure. Um,

1318
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: I feel pretty confident saying this out loud, that there

1319
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 1: was a hunting season was opened on a Native American

1320
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 1: reservation this year for a few, maybe one or two

1321
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:28,640
Speaker 1: individual horses. I don't I'm fairly certain that none were harvested,

1322
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 1: but I would have to imagine that decision came about

1323
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 1: out of um desperation, you know, that group of people,

1324
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 1: those land managers, those stakeholders, feeling as though there weren't

1325
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:50,919
Speaker 1: options available aside from hunting. UM on a more general

1326
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 1: from a more general place, you know. The kyote reference

1327
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 1: in the pay reference I think are interesting because kyotes

1328
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:04,640
Speaker 1: were initially like a Southeastern species that have colonized America functionally,

1329
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 1: because we removed a lot of the apex predators that

1330
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:08,559
Speaker 1: kept them in check, and we just created a lot

1331
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: of avenues for them to to just like pigeons or

1332
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,640
Speaker 1: starlings to kind of follow our dust trails. An adaptive

1333
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 1: critter that that can live where we live, or really

1334
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 1: can live anywhere. Right, Yeah, we gave it an inch,

1335
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,840
Speaker 1: they took a mile. Um. A lot of the research

1336
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 1: out there would say now that hunting kyotes actually just

1337
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 1: makes more coyotes, and hunting hogs makes more hogs, educates

1338
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,240
Speaker 1: the ones that are there and makes more Right. So

1339
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: I think at that point, you know, hunting in those situations,

1340
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 1: I would say, isn't a tool for necessarily management. Maybe

1341
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:45,600
Speaker 1: on a small local level, on a certain ranch or

1342
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:47,479
Speaker 1: a certain area, you might be able to impact the

1343
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 1: long term population, but I think the take needs to

1344
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 1: be pretty high. Horses are different because they're not as fecund,

1345
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 1: or they're not reproducing as rapidly as a kayla or

1346
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 1: a pig, which we now have many babies often. Um.

1347
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 1: I'm on an expert in horse biology, but I would

1348
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 1: probably wager that if that was legal, if that was

1349
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 1: socially acceptable, if the tools were in place and the

1350
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:13,480
Speaker 1: platforms in place to implement hunting never gonna happen but continue,

1351
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 1: it could be effective. Unfortunately, I as somebody who loves horses,

1352
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 1: as somebody who more than anything loves well my family

1353
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 1: and friends, but ecosystems, that's what I live for. I

1354
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 1: don't quite see another option. I think that that the

1355
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 1: situation will only get worse. And I think them we're

1356
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: kind of at a point of no return where the

1357
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 1: populations are going at a rate that the tools we

1358
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 1: have can't possibly do enough. Uh. And I think the

1359
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:50,639
Speaker 1: result is that you're going to have more die offs,

1360
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:53,680
Speaker 1: and you're going to have more public land that's degraded,

1361
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: and you're going to have more wildlife that are losing

1362
01:15:57,240 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: and more horses that are losing. Uh. And it's just

1363
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 1: kind of a shitty situation. Yea, horses, wild horses, a

1364
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 1: shitty situation. But yeah film, yeah, yeah, I mean I

1365
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: think these shitty situations are stressful, stressful. He's sweating right

1366
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:21,680
Speaker 1: out and talking. I'm still looking at these horses right now. Sorry.

1367
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 1: UM actually want to like watch like finding any morse

1368
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 1: some something up keeping simple, don't watch Dances with Wolves

1369
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 1: or anything. Um. I like the way that you put

1370
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:38,680
Speaker 1: that because I think shitty situations are are just like

1371
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,760
Speaker 1: you said, be a student. Understand that there is a

1372
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 1: positive outcome here. Are we able as a society moreover

1373
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 1: two stomach killing a horse to save the horses and

1374
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: the elk and the stage your house. Are we willing

1375
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 1: to do that? My best guess is absolutely fucking not.

1376
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 1: No way damn it. Then, But me, if you gave

1377
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 1: it up to me, if if if somebody's came in

1378
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 1: here and say like absolute is um you can make

1379
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 1: the call, I'd be like, go yeah, because I think

1380
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 1: the fail sace of science based biology based tag systems,

1381
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 1: where the wildlife managers can make the proper calls. These

1382
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:23,960
Speaker 1: guys you're talking about, that, the ones that are so

1383
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 1: distressed about the situation, they can be like, yes, I've

1384
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:29,160
Speaker 1: been doing this for twenty years. I'm ready for this now.

1385
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 1: Maybe I wasn't ten years ago, but now I am.

1386
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 1: Let's try it on a limited basis and see and

1387
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 1: if it works and we gotta keep doing it. And

1388
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 1: let me take you over to the parking lot. There's

1389
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:44,760
Speaker 1: a thousand horses bumping around and you know, licking each

1390
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:47,840
Speaker 1: other and starving to death at once a once a month.

1391
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:49,759
Speaker 1: Let me take you over there. People are hitting horses

1392
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: on the road. We met multiple people who had lost

1393
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 1: neighbors to horse collisions. We found dead horses, we have

1394
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,839
Speaker 1: video footage of horses dying. We had plenty of footage

1395
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 1: of horses that are just covering scars head to toe

1396
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:06,200
Speaker 1: fighting for water. We have footage of wildlife being moved

1397
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:10,599
Speaker 1: off water because hundreds of literally over a thousand horses

1398
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:12,719
Speaker 1: in a day, like a steady stream of bands coming

1399
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 1: into water. Um, I just think of what people might

1400
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:23,559
Speaker 1: not understand. Fifty five thousand horses extra number one, number two,

1401
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 1: That is so many horses, nine thousand wild horses and

1402
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: burrows exist to the best of our knowledge on public lands.

1403
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 1: And that's fifty five thousand more than the best scientists

1404
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 1: have determined the landscape can sustain. It's a lot of animals.

1405
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:43,360
Speaker 1: I like our hashtag keep it public. I do like

1406
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:46,440
Speaker 1: that hashtag, But I would also say keep it fucking sustainable.

1407
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 1: And that's my other hashtag. We have a lot of

1408
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,280
Speaker 1: good ones. That's one. Can we say keep it sustainable?

1409
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:57,639
Speaker 1: Like it's public? Great, lovely? Now we're all together paying

1410
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 1: for this thing. We're all together, you know, using it

1411
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 1: and helping to manage it. But my god, can we

1412
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: just say, biologists tell us how we sustain this, and

1413
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:12,800
Speaker 1: that's what we'll do totally. And I think, you know,

1414
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 1: another big thing is just to think about these places ecosystems.

1415
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 1: You know, whether you're an ice climber or a biker,

1416
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:25,080
Speaker 1: or a deer hunter or a waterfowl guy, are different

1417
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 1: passions and interests generally rely on an ecosystem functioning at

1418
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 1: some level. And I think to remind people that, yeah,

1419
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 1: mountains aren't elk vending machines, mountains aren't didn't weren't, you know,

1420
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 1: don't exist just to be climbed. That just because you

1421
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 1: have a bivy and you hype the PCC PCT doesn't

1422
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:47,240
Speaker 1: mean you're benign. You know that we all have these

1423
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 1: things we want to take, whether it's an experience or

1424
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:55,000
Speaker 1: an animal or a photo, those things hinge upon the

1425
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 1: fact that an ecosystem is there, you know, And then

1426
01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 1: we can't just look at them as these like disparate

1427
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 1: little kind of things. They all are connected. And I

1428
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 1: think we need to look at science. There's a lot

1429
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:06,679
Speaker 1: of bad science out there. There's a lot of great

1430
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 1: science out there, but we need to look at science

1431
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 1: and look at the options available with that like level head,

1432
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:15,599
Speaker 1: you know, of not getting caught up in emotions because

1433
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:18,760
Speaker 1: sadly we live in a time where emotions do more

1434
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 1: than science. You know, I was listening to a Ted

1435
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 1: talk the other day and this guy said that the

1436
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: way we feel about animals will do more to write

1437
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 1: their future than anything will read in a science book.

1438
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:30,479
Speaker 1: And that is scary. That's a great point. Yeah, And

1439
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 1: then how do we, as you and I, just as individuals,

1440
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 1: help to with all good conscious like adjust the way

1441
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 1: people think about animals without thinking about that is it's totality, right,

1442
01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:48,280
Speaker 1: I mean we our relationships with animals start in such

1443
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 1: a fucked way as children. Yeah, I can't say funding

1444
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 1: then that keep talking about children, sorry kids, but it

1445
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 1: starts in such a weird way. The prism that that

1446
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,240
Speaker 1: even me as a parent has created for my son

1447
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:07,519
Speaker 1: such will be so weird to him when he gets

1448
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 1: out in the world and discovers Oh well, that's not

1449
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:15,480
Speaker 1: the way. You might as well have created certain individual

1450
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:19,360
Speaker 1: species as Santa Claus, you've basically told me a lie

1451
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:22,599
Speaker 1: about what they are. Like, you lied to me. They

1452
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 1: don't wear suspenders and go to the market, they eat,

1453
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 1: they're young, Like, why did you lie to me? Why

1454
01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:33,000
Speaker 1: of all the things you could have stuffed and put

1455
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,559
Speaker 1: in my crib, why didn't you just put like a

1456
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 1: crab in there or something. Why did you put a

1457
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 1: freaking why did you put a bison and a bear

1458
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 1: in there? Like why did you choose that? And we'll

1459
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:46,519
Speaker 1: have to say, huh, that's a good point, man. And

1460
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:50,320
Speaker 1: you know I wrote this the other day that a wildlife,

1461
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 1: a wild space life is not an easy one. You know,

1462
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 1: for folks who have sat out and watched elk in

1463
01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 1: the rut, or have watched horses a little watering hole

1464
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 1: or even watch does get after it. I mean it's

1465
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 1: rugged out there, you know. I mean it is. It's

1466
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 1: a game. It's a it's a margin of inches and

1467
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 1: centimeters and and drips of water and leaves and bites

1468
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 1: of food. Um, and it's not Yeah, it's not Disney World.

1469
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 1: It's not Disney lamb. That's what I think. My another thing,

1470
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 1: when my son, my wife's like, hey, we want to

1471
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 1: go to the zoo. I said, I'll let you go

1472
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 1: to the zoo, and not that I control you. We

1473
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 1: want to go to the zoo and our son has

1474
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 1: fun there for now he's not even two yet. That's great,

1475
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: feed the goats whatever, but let's watch it when we

1476
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 1: get we get to the point where he understands what

1477
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 1: these animals really are because and that's a good I

1478
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 1: feel like it's a good segue or a good way

1479
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 1: to mash together what wild animals are and what those

1480
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:54,479
Speaker 1: that are living in captivity are. Those animals more accessible

1481
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:58,480
Speaker 1: to us. We've taken away their wildness. That doesn't necessarily

1482
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 1: make those animals happier or healthier. It makes them sick. Ah.

1483
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:09,040
Speaker 1: And so this this why not embrace the wild, like

1484
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 1: how wild it is and how complicated it is, and

1485
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 1: how it asks things of us as participants in it.

1486
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:19,759
Speaker 1: That can be difficult, because living in the wild is difficult.

1487
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:22,200
Speaker 1: But you can't take that away from a a lion

1488
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:23,639
Speaker 1: put in the zoo and say it we'll be happy

1489
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 1: now we took away the wild. Nobody will try to

1490
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:29,320
Speaker 1: eat it in there. And that was that I was like,

1491
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 1: fuck you, I would rather be out there trying to

1492
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:34,720
Speaker 1: get eaten by something. Well. And I think you see

1493
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:37,120
Speaker 1: the horses in the holding facility, you know, and you

1494
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 1: see them and it's like, Okay, they're safe, they have water,

1495
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:43,400
Speaker 1: they have food. That life's gotta suck, you know. I mean,

1496
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:48,120
Speaker 1: life in the wild isn't much easier. But I don't know.

1497
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,360
Speaker 1: I think if those horses could talk, they'd probably vote

1498
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:51,920
Speaker 1: for an option in the wild. And if the bears

1499
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:55,000
Speaker 1: could talk, they'd be like, stop putting me the stuff, asshole,

1500
01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 1: because I'll eat you, and you come up you go

1501
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:00,120
Speaker 1: up here trying to feed me, and then I have

1502
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: to eat you because I'm a bear, and then you

1503
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 1: stop it. Well, and it's the idea of of of ambassadors. Really,

1504
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's something that um, a good friend of mine,

1505
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 1: Chris Burke. Are people maybe listening to know of his

1506
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:17,599
Speaker 1: photographer a really great yeah, great guy. You know, he

1507
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:20,960
Speaker 1: and I were having a conversation about Yosemite and it's like, okay,

1508
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:22,880
Speaker 1: how do we talk about Yosemite? Is it wild? Is

1509
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:26,000
Speaker 1: it wilderness? You know the valley because I know the

1510
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 1: up country is different. Um, but you know, we we

1511
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 1: we came up with this idea that it's kind of

1512
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 1: like the sacrificial lamp, that it's this ambassador for wild

1513
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:41,840
Speaker 1: places that while the average visitor, like myself, maybe we'll

1514
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 1: complain about the traffic and the people and the cement

1515
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,040
Speaker 1: paths and you know this and that and the other.

1516
01:24:48,439 --> 01:24:50,599
Speaker 1: The beautiful thing about a place like Yosemite is that

1517
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 1: every day, thousands of people go to Yosemite and have

1518
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 1: an epic outdoor experience. They go back to their communities

1519
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 1: across the globe with a new schmark for epic nature,

1520
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 1: and they, in some way, to some degree, I would imagine,

1521
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 1: have some sort of deeper connection with the natural world.

1522
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 1: Just like the bear in the zoo or the horse

1523
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: in my backyard. They're kind of ambassadors for these wilder

1524
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:20,479
Speaker 1: things and in the same through the same lens. That's

1525
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:22,880
Speaker 1: what excites me about the hunting space. You know, I

1526
01:25:22,920 --> 01:25:25,719
Speaker 1: grew up hunting, I've hunted a little bit. I'm mainly

1527
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 1: a wildlife nerd who eats meat and enjoys going out

1528
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:35,320
Speaker 1: and trying to get some I do think that one

1529
01:25:35,360 --> 01:25:36,680
Speaker 1: of the things that's been intriguing to me about the

1530
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:38,840
Speaker 1: hunting space that there are a lot of people out there,

1531
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:41,920
Speaker 1: yourself included, who I think are amazing ambassadors for the

1532
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:45,799
Speaker 1: right story, the story that helps solve the pr crisis

1533
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:47,880
Speaker 1: that I think has been troublesome of the hunting space,

1534
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:52,720
Speaker 1: narratives that challenge all the bs that gets published, the

1535
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:56,160
Speaker 1: worst examples that gets published, and reminding people that there's

1536
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 1: a lot of really good humans out there doing their

1537
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:01,960
Speaker 1: best with open open mine, an open heart, interested in

1538
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: asking questions, interested in being compassionate, interested in doing the

1539
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 1: best they can on the land, and just trying to

1540
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,599
Speaker 1: go about in the best way. And it's like we're

1541
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 1: better off showing them the best examples of our community

1542
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 1: as opposed to talking ship and saying like, look how

1543
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 1: bad this person is or how they could have done

1544
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:20,559
Speaker 1: that better. And that's something for me that recently came

1545
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:25,120
Speaker 1: up because I got into a situation not long ago

1546
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:26,840
Speaker 1: where I was in a bunch of like in a

1547
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:28,760
Speaker 1: group of people that were all honey industry people, and

1548
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 1: I found us just churning through like oh that guy

1549
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 1: all we all kind of agreed on, you know, the

1550
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:44,000
Speaker 1: judgments we're throw in a too handsome like guy's a nerd, nerd,

1551
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:49,759
Speaker 1: get out, get out of here. But I found myself like, oh, man,

1552
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 1: here's a bunch of people, smart, influential, understand hunting, compassionate,

1553
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 1: good people, but are getting caught up in like just

1554
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's just an interesting conversation to have

1555
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 1: about people and the rumor like man, I gotta get

1556
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:10,599
Speaker 1: away from that. That's one too. When one of these

1557
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: damn lady killed the giraffe stories comes up, and the

1558
01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:19,559
Speaker 1: and just like the the gun, the mass shooting comes up.

1559
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:23,519
Speaker 1: This is a storyline that we've all heard before, right, So,

1560
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,799
Speaker 1: so lady kills giraffe, sits in front of draft, takes photo.

1561
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 1: People get mad. That's a storyline we've always discussed. We've

1562
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:33,559
Speaker 1: been there, We've done that. I think this, you think this.

1563
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 1: I ignore. I have to ignore that, like going forward

1564
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 1: in my life, not that I did in the past,

1565
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:41,920
Speaker 1: because as a writer and a journalist, I'm like, well,

1566
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 1: that's a great can write a story on that, people

1567
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 1: might click on it. Whoa. Um. But now it's just

1568
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:50,720
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna keep just over here pulling and maybe

1569
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:53,759
Speaker 1: whild horses, although not as compelling as Lady with Giraffe,

1570
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 1: is a better way to spend my time, in a

1571
01:27:57,160 --> 01:28:00,240
Speaker 1: more positive way, to pull the rope towards me. Um.

1572
01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 1: And maybe if as soon as I start engaging in

1573
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:08,559
Speaker 1: some ridiculous bullshit argument with somebody about a giraffe, and

1574
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:10,880
Speaker 1: you know how it always goes, She's like, hey, she

1575
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:13,559
Speaker 1: should have shot that giraffe, And you're like, well, giraffe,

1576
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:16,679
Speaker 1: that was an old giraffe. Man, But you've never even

1577
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:20,600
Speaker 1: seen it was eight. Look at the strange. It was

1578
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 1: an old giraffe to be like, listen, go away, I'm

1579
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:29,640
Speaker 1: over here learning and experiencing and doing the things that

1580
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,519
Speaker 1: are important. You were over there looking at a giraffe

1581
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:37,760
Speaker 1: somebody shot in Africa and getting mad like no, And

1582
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:40,599
Speaker 1: even if you win that argument, or I win that argument,

1583
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,240
Speaker 1: or whatever happens, none of us have ever done anything

1584
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:45,799
Speaker 1: to pull the rope right to the right right side.

1585
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:47,800
Speaker 1: And this is just a tug of war taken off.

1586
01:28:48,360 --> 01:28:50,840
Speaker 1: That's just taking our time. A giraffe, once they have

1587
01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 1: purple tongues, they do. I've seen one. In fact, I

1588
01:28:54,080 --> 01:28:57,559
Speaker 1: was in Africa. I saw one, and I was expert Africa.

1589
01:28:57,720 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 1: I was with my mom and she cried and she

1590
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:01,800
Speaker 1: saw it was a little struck by it, and I thought, well,

1591
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 1: let's and then we decided. They were like, well we

1592
01:29:03,439 --> 01:29:07,360
Speaker 1: were hunting, not your graft. And the guy goes, well,

1593
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:08,920
Speaker 1: you can shoot a draft you want. I'm like, well,

1594
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 1: I'm aware of that that. I like, well, my mom's

1595
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:14,160
Speaker 1: crying about how impactful. See my mom, asshole, he's crying.

1596
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:17,760
Speaker 1: It's my mom. I don't shoot things, Yeah, I don't

1597
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:21,439
Speaker 1: shoot things that make my own crime okay, buddy, but

1598
01:29:21,560 --> 01:29:23,840
Speaker 1: that's like, well it's seventeen fifty. That's how much it

1599
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:26,920
Speaker 1: costs to kill That name is George. Yeah he's old,

1600
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 1: don't worry. So if you take a picture with him

1601
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:32,920
Speaker 1: head button all the draft eating all the tops of

1602
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:36,599
Speaker 1: the trees. But that, yeah, that those things are just

1603
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:40,040
Speaker 1: I think maybe with wildlife, if you tell yourself, I

1604
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 1: want to understand the entirety of this thing, or at

1605
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 1: least when I get down to a certain species or

1606
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:48,439
Speaker 1: a certain problem, just like wild horses, let me understand

1607
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:52,000
Speaker 1: the entirety of this thing from the perspective of compassion,

1608
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:56,759
Speaker 1: as you said, perspective of leaning on the biologists, leaning

1609
01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:00,120
Speaker 1: on the ecologist, leaning on the people that are doing it,

1610
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:04,680
Speaker 1: trusting their opinions and letting them do their work. Like

1611
01:30:05,240 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 1: all those things come together to be the best thing

1612
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:09,720
Speaker 1: for the animal. Saving all of them is never the

1613
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 1: best thing that I found. Killing all of them is

1614
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 1: never the best thing I found. But there's some weird

1615
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:18,479
Speaker 1: middle ground that we should strive to live in that

1616
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:21,760
Speaker 1: would be helpful. Yeah. And you know one thing that

1617
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:25,760
Speaker 1: I think kind of I guess changed the way I

1618
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:28,519
Speaker 1: thought about some of these wildlife issues was spending time

1619
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:31,240
Speaker 1: in South Texas. So Ben and I went down there

1620
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 1: two years ago and we were staying on a ranch

1621
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:37,840
Speaker 1: kind of near fell furious you've been there, not been

1622
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:40,720
Speaker 1: there right now. There's a lot of fracking out there,

1623
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:44,839
Speaker 1: shell country. Um. And we're staying with friends of friends,

1624
01:30:45,439 --> 01:30:49,840
Speaker 1: wonderful family. Uh for listening, Thank you for having us. Um.

1625
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:51,840
Speaker 1: And I was talking to mom, you know, and it's

1626
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:54,800
Speaker 1: this huge spread um, you know, mesquite kind of this

1627
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:57,080
Speaker 1: new country for me and never never been out there before,

1628
01:30:57,160 --> 01:31:01,840
Speaker 1: so pretty intrigued. Tons of pigs, tons of deer. Um.

1629
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:04,320
Speaker 1: You know. The family loves to hunt. Uh. They also

1630
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,479
Speaker 1: had a lot of fracking going on. And I talked

1631
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:09,400
Speaker 1: to the mom one day, you know, being somebody who

1632
01:31:09,400 --> 01:31:10,720
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would have been as

1633
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:12,240
Speaker 1: kind of like a hippie to start with, you know,

1634
01:31:12,520 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 1: UC Berkeley, ten years, California surfer whatever. UM, call me

1635
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 1: what you will. I'm totally intreated by the middle ground.

1636
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 1: I'm totally intreated by other people's realities. And I asked her,

1637
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:26,040
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, how does like I don't know

1638
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 1: anything about fracking. I've read a bunch of papers about it.

1639
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:31,080
Speaker 1: I like listened to professor's talk about it. I don't

1640
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 1: think about it personally, like you on this land, how

1641
01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 1: does it like? What's the deal? How does it make

1642
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:38,639
Speaker 1: you feel? She's like, well, do you look out there,

1643
01:31:38,680 --> 01:31:40,320
Speaker 1: that little guesthouse you got to stay in. That was

1644
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 1: my family's homestead. That was their their main house. And

1645
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:48,800
Speaker 1: they scraped living together, running a few cattle, probably oriented, uh,

1646
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:52,000
Speaker 1: never really got ahead. It's tough life. You know, South

1647
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 1: Texas hots rugged. There's not a lot out there. I

1648
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:58,519
Speaker 1: mean there is, but it's it's rough to landscape. So

1649
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:00,800
Speaker 1: she says, okay, so imagine this. You know, you own

1650
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 1: all this land. Somebody knocks and Georant says, We're gonna

1651
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:06,320
Speaker 1: pay you guys this much every month for this many years,

1652
01:32:07,120 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 1: and it's gonna change your life. And she's saying on

1653
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:13,400
Speaker 1: her famili sement her future and she says yes, And

1654
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:18,040
Speaker 1: everybody has their own opinion. I don't know what I would,

1655
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:19,800
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not going to make an opinion on it,

1656
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 1: but that's what she did with that. It's changed their

1657
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:28,320
Speaker 1: family's life. She's now one of the main people in

1658
01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:33,680
Speaker 1: that part of the state that holds uh migratory pollinator

1659
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:36,559
Speaker 1: kind of events where people come out to their ranch

1660
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:41,120
Speaker 1: and they document songbirds and migrating monarchs, and they're constantly

1661
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 1: working to restore the ecosystem to be more friendly to

1662
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:48,679
Speaker 1: migrating pollinators. And she was like this total butterfly nerd

1663
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:52,000
Speaker 1: and totally passionate about it and totally passionate about songbirds

1664
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:55,639
Speaker 1: and creating habitat and managing the wildlife. And she wouldn't

1665
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:58,880
Speaker 1: be able to do that if they didn't accept that opportunity.

1666
01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:00,840
Speaker 1: You know, one is not better than the other. But

1667
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:06,000
Speaker 1: that's her, somebody's reality, and she is going about her reality,

1668
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:08,720
Speaker 1: and I think a pretty awesome way. You know. It's

1669
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:10,920
Speaker 1: easy to say like, oh man, she's fracking that shitty,

1670
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 1: you know, but she's a good she. I met her.

1671
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 1: She's a great person, and she is using some of

1672
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:20,800
Speaker 1: that financial latitude to do something that needs to be done,

1673
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:22,519
Speaker 1: you know, which is like being mindful of the fact

1674
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:25,120
Speaker 1: that pollinators are in decline, migrating monarchs are in decline.

1675
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:28,280
Speaker 1: And she has a small role in that huge narrative,

1676
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:30,200
Speaker 1: which I think is an important one. Yeah, well, what

1677
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,680
Speaker 1: that almost bleeds into like in a strange way, you

1678
01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:38,000
Speaker 1: go north to Utah and you look at bears ears,

1679
01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:41,759
Speaker 1: and you're like kind of similar to that, Like there's

1680
01:33:41,920 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 1: a place that's sacred to a lot of people. Sacred

1681
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:50,120
Speaker 1: to one side because of its the glory of the

1682
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:52,439
Speaker 1: way it looks in the in the landscape, and even

1683
01:33:52,439 --> 01:33:54,479
Speaker 1: on the native side how they how they view it

1684
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 1: in their culture. But then it's really so the other

1685
01:33:58,479 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 1: side they be like, we get some money out of

1686
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:04,559
Speaker 1: that thing. We need that stuff. That's there's consumption that

1687
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:06,519
Speaker 1: we have to drive and there's some over there like

1688
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:09,840
Speaker 1: to get it. Um. Same for that lady, I mean,

1689
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:12,200
Speaker 1: you have to have if the government was a person,

1690
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:13,880
Speaker 1: if the government was that lady, the government has to

1691
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:18,120
Speaker 1: make that choice. One side would choose fracking, one side

1692
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:23,160
Speaker 1: would choose you know, butterfly preserve um. Even for the

1693
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 1: government fracking money, you know, national monument costs um and

1694
01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:33,519
Speaker 1: there are some so there's both signs of that. And

1695
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 1: it's hard because like how do you how do you

1696
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:37,599
Speaker 1: how do we you know, you and I have our

1697
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:41,240
Speaker 1: own set of ideals and experiences and and uh kind

1698
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:45,280
Speaker 1: of intuitions, like how do you put a value? Like

1699
01:34:45,320 --> 01:34:47,760
Speaker 1: how do how It's hard, like how do you judge that?

1700
01:34:48,320 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, how do you judge the Native

1701
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:55,160
Speaker 1: Alaskan who is advocating for a road to be built

1702
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:59,639
Speaker 1: to there their remote village that goes through Caribou migrant

1703
01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:02,559
Speaker 1: myer tree grounds, and they're gallon of milk is gonna

1704
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:04,800
Speaker 1: go from twelve bucks a gallon to three because they

1705
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:07,320
Speaker 1: can drive in the nine hours to Fairbanks. You know,

1706
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 1: like how it's it's tough. I could see it both ways.

1707
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:13,120
Speaker 1: I can see, I can see like the history of

1708
01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:15,360
Speaker 1: I can see one way saying we don't need any

1709
01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:18,000
Speaker 1: more roads, right, because if you follow that one guy's

1710
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:20,400
Speaker 1: line of thinking, I need a road to make my milk.

1711
01:35:20,520 --> 01:35:25,560
Speaker 1: If everybody's milk gets cheaper, our landscapes get destroyed. We

1712
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:29,439
Speaker 1: have flying cars. See call in. I know there's no

1713
01:35:29,560 --> 01:35:33,320
Speaker 1: calling away, but right in write me a letter like

1714
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:37,360
Speaker 1: flying car guy, I need you. But do you think

1715
01:35:37,400 --> 01:35:39,120
Speaker 1: of flying cars there would be no roads or would

1716
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,000
Speaker 1: there be like count floating cones then by flying cones,

1717
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:43,640
Speaker 1: but then they would probably run on the batteries and

1718
01:35:43,640 --> 01:35:45,680
Speaker 1: they'd crash in the water and then pollute the water. Right,

1719
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:48,200
Speaker 1: the floating cones to run on some sort of biodiesel

1720
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:55,400
Speaker 1: ship say or something. Anyway, if we said, hey, guy,

1721
01:35:55,720 --> 01:35:57,519
Speaker 1: you need cheaper milk. We're gonna do that for you.

1722
01:35:58,120 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: That's your choice. We're gonna we're gonna make that. If

1723
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:02,599
Speaker 1: every guy that needs cheaper milk gets a road, then

1724
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:06,519
Speaker 1: our environment fucking loses. But if every road doesn't get built,

1725
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:11,240
Speaker 1: then the people that rely on that environment lose. So

1726
01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:15,160
Speaker 1: shitty situation. Well, so it makes me think about you know,

1727
01:36:15,240 --> 01:36:18,519
Speaker 1: Wilson's half first hYP hypothesis. You know, Wilson's probably the

1728
01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:23,680
Speaker 1: most famous in my nerdy opinion, extant living conservation biologist.

1729
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:27,840
Speaker 1: He's a Harvard professor emeritus, just total legend. He one

1730
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:31,000
Speaker 1: of his theories is that in order for humanity to

1731
01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:34,120
Speaker 1: exist long term, we need to set aside half of

1732
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:39,040
Speaker 1: the planet for wildlife and and ecosystems. He thinks there's

1733
01:36:39,080 --> 01:36:43,280
Speaker 1: hope with that mindset. I think it's a pretty awesome idea.

1734
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:46,599
Speaker 1: With that mindset, you know, we'd look at the guy

1735
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:48,120
Speaker 1: who wants cheaper milk, and we look at the other

1736
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:50,559
Speaker 1: dude who wants cheaper milk, and we'd say, what is

1737
01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:54,160
Speaker 1: the ecological value and what is the impact the net impact?

1738
01:36:54,600 --> 01:36:57,600
Speaker 1: So me personally, and maybe I'll get hate mail for this.

1739
01:36:57,760 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 1: I see the bearsiest thing which is important and has

1740
01:36:59,880 --> 01:37:01,920
Speaker 1: the out of value placed. But if we took all

1741
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:05,080
Speaker 1: that inertia that was being put into saving a monument

1742
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:08,240
Speaker 1: that has mining operation and grazing operations and recreation and

1743
01:37:08,320 --> 01:37:11,639
Speaker 1: cars and roads and a lot of impact, we took

1744
01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:15,880
Speaker 1: all that inertia and applied it towards anwar the Arctic

1745
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:19,519
Speaker 1: National Wildlife Refuge or to the National Oil and Gas

1746
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:22,600
Speaker 1: Refuge Reserve, which is next to Animar, which is the

1747
01:37:22,640 --> 01:37:24,679
Speaker 1: largest piece of public land in America. It's the most

1748
01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:27,960
Speaker 1: remote that there is a place in that in that

1749
01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:32,040
Speaker 1: reserve that is more remote than then certainly Elstone, but

1750
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 1: it's the most remote place in America. We should put

1751
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:37,160
Speaker 1: all of that energy into saving that place because the

1752
01:37:37,240 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 1: ecological system there is pretty pristine and there's a lot

1753
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 1: to save. So it's easy, I think for folks to

1754
01:37:46,400 --> 01:37:52,720
Speaker 1: get drawn into these clickbait wolves. It all funk at all. Yeah,

1755
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:54,559
Speaker 1: but we just seem to be I think. I think

1756
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:56,840
Speaker 1: the move is to be thoughtful to say like, hey, look,

1757
01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,839
Speaker 1: if we're gonna save something, we can't begin to compare

1758
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:03,599
Speaker 1: bears ears to an war totally different things. What's our

1759
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:05,920
Speaker 1: goal for goal? Saving ecosystems? We've got to save Annir

1760
01:38:06,160 --> 01:38:10,559
Speaker 1: for our goals to honor and preserve Native American culture.

1761
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:14,080
Speaker 1: Already that up, already sucked that up. But that's obviously

1762
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:16,320
Speaker 1: something that's a little bit more. And maybe I'm not

1763
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 1: even to say that, but it seems like that's a

1764
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:20,639
Speaker 1: big part of the Bears Ears. Yes, for sure it is. Yeah, Yeah,

1765
01:38:21,240 --> 01:38:24,840
Speaker 1: it's hard to draw the comparison, but way high level,

1766
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:28,200
Speaker 1: the fracking lady in Texas is making some at some

1767
01:38:28,320 --> 01:38:31,120
Speaker 1: level of the same decision that our country or government

1768
01:38:31,200 --> 01:38:35,639
Speaker 1: is making on that landscape. Do we take the stuff

1769
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:39,519
Speaker 1: out we want and possibly harm this place and profit

1770
01:38:39,560 --> 01:38:42,680
Speaker 1: from it as society, or do we leave it? Um,

1771
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:46,200
Speaker 1: that's an interesting one. And so for half Earth, do

1772
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:49,479
Speaker 1: we get to go to the other half and hunt? No,

1773
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 1: we do? Uh VR virtariality. Google with the little goggles

1774
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:59,519
Speaker 1: don't like that. I don't know. I think I think

1775
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:01,679
Speaker 1: that you yeah, I don't know. It remains to be seen,

1776
01:39:01,720 --> 01:39:06,519
Speaker 1: But I think the idea of sustainable hunting, sustainable eco tourism.

1777
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:08,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like you see these people with

1778
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:12,000
Speaker 1: photos of of the whale sharks. You know, there are

1779
01:39:12,040 --> 01:39:15,880
Speaker 1: examples of eco tourism, opportunity to see whale sharks that

1780
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:17,800
Speaker 1: I think have a pretty low impact, and there's a

1781
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:20,320
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities, like in the Philippines where they're just

1782
01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:23,759
Speaker 1: dumping dried shrimp in the water and there's eighty boats

1783
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:26,599
Speaker 1: and the whale sharks are not kind of stoked. So

1784
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:29,720
Speaker 1: there's good and there's bad examples. And I think just

1785
01:39:29,760 --> 01:39:32,120
Speaker 1: back to hunting, you know, like there are more white

1786
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 1: tailed deer in America today than there ever have been.

1787
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:39,559
Speaker 1: To kill a white tailed deer is a if that's

1788
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 1: something that's available to you, and you have the means

1789
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:44,360
Speaker 1: to do it, and you're interested in you eat meat

1790
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 1: that is, you cannot argue the net impact of that harvest,

1791
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,360
Speaker 1: and what you would gain from just the cal caloric

1792
01:39:52,400 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 1: standpoint is far better than definitely ordering meat from getting

1793
01:39:56,840 --> 01:39:59,920
Speaker 1: meat from the market, and in some cases buying app

1794
01:40:00,160 --> 01:40:03,240
Speaker 1: It's like, if you don't live in California in the fall,

1795
01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:07,360
Speaker 1: you're getting apples from Washington shipped from California Chile. If

1796
01:40:07,400 --> 01:40:10,240
Speaker 1: it's if it's you know, the winter, I mean think

1797
01:40:10,280 --> 01:40:14,160
Speaker 1: about that, you're getting an apple that's grown probably with pesticides,

1798
01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:17,320
Speaker 1: on an ecosystem far away, put on a plane flown

1799
01:40:17,360 --> 01:40:20,639
Speaker 1: to you some cases wrapped in plastic. You know, I mean,

1800
01:40:21,160 --> 01:40:23,800
Speaker 1: and it's all about I think, looking at what's available.

1801
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:28,599
Speaker 1: Like I felt so honored and lucky able to harvest

1802
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:31,840
Speaker 1: that elk, because not only do I have you know,

1803
01:40:31,880 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 1: well over a hundred pounds of meat, but there's all

1804
01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:37,599
Speaker 1: the benefits of realizing that, like I shot that less

1805
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:40,479
Speaker 1: than an hour from my house. It was butchered by

1806
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 1: my fiance's uncle. Ah, it's that animal lives an amazing

1807
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 1: life in public land. It died quickly, and it's kept

1808
01:40:50,280 --> 01:40:52,719
Speaker 1: me fed, my friends fed, and it's been this amazing,

1809
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:57,280
Speaker 1: amazing reminder of like how that little unit, which is

1810
01:40:57,280 --> 01:40:59,000
Speaker 1: not a national park, not a state park, not a

1811
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:03,320
Speaker 1: national monument. Frankly it looks like nothing from the trail,

1812
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:07,439
Speaker 1: is my favorite piece of public land in America. And

1813
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:12,320
Speaker 1: if that place was going to be destroyed or impacted,

1814
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:16,360
Speaker 1: or if there were some threat, I and probably a

1815
01:41:16,360 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 1: bunch of other people would be out there. Yeah, you know. Well,

1816
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:23,880
Speaker 1: and honey, I think is like to me the outside world,

1817
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:28,200
Speaker 1: if the outside world was a swimming pool, if you

1818
01:41:28,280 --> 01:41:32,400
Speaker 1: go climb, it's like, yeah, sitting up to your waist,

1819
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:35,600
Speaker 1: you're in it. Yeah you're not really in it. I

1820
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:38,519
Speaker 1: really don't like you're in it, honey, is like diving in,

1821
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:41,760
Speaker 1: Like now you're in it. Now you're part of the

1822
01:41:41,840 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 1: give and take. Now you're part of all that stuff.

1823
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:46,560
Speaker 1: And then you dive in, you're dawn. I want to

1824
01:41:46,560 --> 01:41:49,599
Speaker 1: swim deeper, ship, I gotta swim even more deeper now

1825
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:51,160
Speaker 1: I can just I don't even need to breathe anymore.

1826
01:41:51,360 --> 01:41:54,000
Speaker 1: This is just the way I am, And I like,

1827
01:41:54,720 --> 01:41:56,559
Speaker 1: that's why it's so different for people. If you've never

1828
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:59,880
Speaker 1: dipped your toe in that pool. Diving in seems like

1829
01:41:59,880 --> 01:42:02,559
Speaker 1: a long ways away from just like, oh, that's nice.

1830
01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 1: And that's why you said, like as as ambassadors for

1831
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:08,960
Speaker 1: the outdoors, place like Yellowstone are important for people to

1832
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:12,120
Speaker 1: be like, well, that's cool, that's an elk, and then

1833
01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:15,120
Speaker 1: conversations like this one. Oh man, all right, I could

1834
01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:17,320
Speaker 1: kill that elk, but I could still have compassion and

1835
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:20,240
Speaker 1: care for it, and they could be nuanced. M okay,

1836
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:23,080
Speaker 1: maybe I might try that, And then that person goes

1837
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:25,840
Speaker 1: and tries and they they teach that method to their kids.

1838
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:30,800
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe maybe the modern sport hunter just had

1839
01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:34,280
Speaker 1: it wrong for the beginning, Like maybe the modern sport

1840
01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:37,240
Speaker 1: hunter somewhere in the forties of the fifties fucked it up,

1841
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:43,439
Speaker 1: and there was a hole legacy of my grandfather and

1842
01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:46,640
Speaker 1: my father teaching me a way that wasn't sustainable for

1843
01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:50,559
Speaker 1: now totally. And I think not their fault, by the way.

1844
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:53,519
Speaker 1: I love you, Dad, and I'm sure there's things that

1845
01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:55,760
Speaker 1: we're thinking now that aren't sustainable for the future even then.

1846
01:42:56,920 --> 01:43:00,360
Speaker 1: But like somewhere along the way we made a pool

1847
01:43:00,400 --> 01:43:03,800
Speaker 1: seemed like it was not you know it was, it

1848
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:06,439
Speaker 1: wasn't very swimmable. We made it seem to the regular

1849
01:43:06,520 --> 01:43:09,320
Speaker 1: person who's never been in it. I don't know where

1850
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 1: that happened. Well, I think that's the beauty of like history, right,

1851
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:16,920
Speaker 1: like hindsight. Foresight's a lot less than that, you know,

1852
01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:22,080
Speaker 1: And to your point, I think back then, like you

1853
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:27,679
Speaker 1: can't necessarily blame the trappers. My grandfather hunted wolves because

1854
01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:30,200
Speaker 1: there was a bounding on him and he was a

1855
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:34,320
Speaker 1: Harvard trained forester. He loved the woods as much as anybody.

1856
01:43:34,760 --> 01:43:37,439
Speaker 1: I don't think he would have thought in fifty years

1857
01:43:38,040 --> 01:43:41,719
Speaker 1: you would have an environmental situation like we have today.

1858
01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 1: There's also I think a point worth making, which is

1859
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:53,920
Speaker 1: that the currency that the hunting community or the outdoor community,

1860
01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:59,280
Speaker 1: or the wildlife active you know, advocacy community, the current

1861
01:43:59,320 --> 01:44:04,360
Speaker 1: the the outstanding currency I think could be improved. Whether

1862
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:11,000
Speaker 1: it's the outdoor space too. To offer praise around athletic

1863
01:44:11,080 --> 01:44:13,439
Speaker 1: feet is worthy, but I think there's there's a lot

1864
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 1: of room for stewardship as well. The hunting space, the adventure,

1865
01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:21,080
Speaker 1: the hunt is what draws a lot of people into

1866
01:44:21,080 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 1: that world that gets them to dive in. Often times

1867
01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:28,920
Speaker 1: the hunt is take is given a back seat to

1868
01:44:29,080 --> 01:44:32,679
Speaker 1: the trophy shot. The trophy shots can be done across

1869
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:37,120
Speaker 1: the spectrum of could have done better and pretty mindful,

1870
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:41,439
Speaker 1: I think. And what excites me about working, you know,

1871
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:44,639
Speaker 1: with working being an editor, modern huntsman, being a conservation

1872
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 1: advisor at SITKA, is that there is an opportunity to

1873
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 1: place value on a new model of currency, to say

1874
01:44:55,439 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 1: that we as people in the industry, as people in

1875
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:03,599
Speaker 1: your community, as your neighbors, as people who are interested

1876
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:05,679
Speaker 1: in care about the things you're interested in care about,

1877
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:09,679
Speaker 1: we value this type of narrative. We value this type

1878
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:12,920
Speaker 1: of curiosity, this type of hunt, this approach to storytelling.

1879
01:45:13,439 --> 01:45:16,320
Speaker 1: And I think through that our kids and our grandkids

1880
01:45:16,360 --> 01:45:18,280
Speaker 1: might be able to look back and say, like that

1881
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:20,360
Speaker 1: was pretty cool, you know, they like pushed the needle

1882
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: in the cool direction because we have so much knowledge

1883
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:25,600
Speaker 1: and so much so many resources that our grandparents just

1884
01:45:25,640 --> 01:45:28,920
Speaker 1: didn't have. Yeah. Yeah, you know in the internet, for one,

1885
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:32,400
Speaker 1: invented it. Yeah, thanks al, you know. Yeah. And I

1886
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:34,439
Speaker 1: wouldn't never be to say that it never is foolish

1887
01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:36,479
Speaker 1: to think like we're somehow better than them. It's not

1888
01:45:36,520 --> 01:45:40,280
Speaker 1: the case. The case is the way the world in

1889
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:44,320
Speaker 1: society has shifted. Maybe the place we started wasn't the

1890
01:45:44,439 --> 01:45:47,439
Speaker 1: right place for the shift that happened. Doesn't mean anything

1891
01:45:47,439 --> 01:45:50,320
Speaker 1: along that way was done, you know, with ill intent

1892
01:45:50,439 --> 01:45:54,000
Speaker 1: or whatever like that. But I do think that's UM

1893
01:45:54,760 --> 01:45:58,160
Speaker 1: a huge part of this conversation and and points well made.

1894
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:00,920
Speaker 1: And I think we've we've on an hour and forty

1895
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:07,360
Speaker 1: six minutes. Somewhere. My child is in Bozeman crying eating

1896
01:46:07,360 --> 01:46:09,800
Speaker 1: its third kind of ice cream. That's right, he was

1897
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:13,479
Speaker 1: getting pizza. I think that wasn't Yeah, but anyway, UM,

1898
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:16,720
Speaker 1: check out all of sikest conservation projects. Yeah, there's a

1899
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:19,000
Speaker 1: lot of stuff we're working on. Read Modern Huntsman. Read

1900
01:46:19,040 --> 01:46:21,639
Speaker 1: Modern Huntsman. UM watch for these films that are coming

1901
01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:26,000
Speaker 1: out on wild horses and also on sheep in Texas. Yeah,

1902
01:46:26,080 --> 01:46:28,600
Speaker 1: thanks to you helped us out with that. Yeah, I

1903
01:46:28,640 --> 01:46:31,720
Speaker 1: did you? Eddie sponsored that? Yeah, all kinds of stuff. Yeah,

1904
01:46:31,720 --> 01:46:35,599
Speaker 1: and you can learn more about my nerdy escapades Charles

1905
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:39,439
Speaker 1: Post trails Underscore post on Instagram. I mean it's not

1906
01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:42,439
Speaker 1: I mean, for a nerd, you're pretty cool. You know

1907
01:46:42,439 --> 01:46:46,519
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Thanks, You're no problem. It's funny because

1908
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:49,640
Speaker 1: I took Rachel. I played I have a film, Sky Immigrations.

1909
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:52,720
Speaker 1: It's done the band world tour and uh wild and

1910
01:46:52,720 --> 01:46:55,240
Speaker 1: seeing a few others you know, played at Berkeley, and

1911
01:46:55,280 --> 01:46:56,600
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I got to take her to

1912
01:46:56,640 --> 01:47:00,760
Speaker 1: my like and I took I walked her to the

1913
01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:03,240
Speaker 1: library's racist study because those are my favorite places, like,

1914
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:05,760
Speaker 1: oh that was my desk. Anyway, don't make fun of me.

1915
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:07,960
Speaker 1: If you shoul listen to this. She was like, well,

1916
01:47:07,960 --> 01:47:11,560
Speaker 1: thanks for towards the library. Let's get out of it.

1917
01:47:12,200 --> 01:47:14,439
Speaker 1: We are you gonna take me next? The other Ali

1918
01:47:14,479 --> 01:47:18,880
Speaker 1: bar cool man? Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thanks for having

1919
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:25,600
Speaker 1: stoke for neighbors. We are cups and string or walkie talking. Hey, um,

1920
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:29,160
Speaker 1: breaking news. I'm moving to Bozeman. It's awesome. Don't move here.

1921
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 1: Don't move here. Nobody else. Okay, bye, that's it. That

1922
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:37,800
Speaker 1: is all episode number twenty of the books. So thank

1923
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:41,080
Speaker 1: you to Rachel and Charles having me onto their place

1924
01:47:41,080 --> 01:47:44,440
Speaker 1: in Boza, Montana, and to Charles especially for the great conversation.

1925
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:47,360
Speaker 1: Hopefully you will continue to follow Charles look him up

1926
01:47:47,360 --> 01:47:50,360
Speaker 1: on Instagram, look at look up. All his media projects

1927
01:47:50,360 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 1: and film projects, all those are worthy of your time

1928
01:47:53,720 --> 01:47:56,280
Speaker 1: if you're a hunter. He's got a perspective of EA

1929
01:47:56,920 --> 01:47:59,320
Speaker 1: and he could be a true conservation of bastard and

1930
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 1: true and bad stroop for science based conservation as well.

1931
01:48:04,120 --> 01:48:07,160
Speaker 1: Until next time, for episode number twenty one, will be

1932
01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 1: joined by Sam Sohol and Jason Matt Singer. Go to

1933
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:14,759
Speaker 1: the Honey Collective dot com. There's articles there in this podcast.

1934
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 1: There all kind of stuff there that you can go.

1935
01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:20,240
Speaker 1: Take a look at the last couple of podcasts from

1936
01:48:20,240 --> 01:48:25,120
Speaker 1: Ben shed Crazy, Dantha Monte and others. So enjoy those

1937
01:48:25,360 --> 01:48:48,559
Speaker 1: and we'll see you next week.