1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome. It could happen here once again 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: hosted by myself Andrew along with the rest of the crew, 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Mia and James. All Right, and today I want to 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: take a minute to talk about Ubuntu, and not the 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: Linux software, but the African philosophy. UBUNTUO is philosophical concepts 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: for those who don't know, derived from some of the 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: diverse and disposed indigenous traditions of the roughly three hundred 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: and sixty million Bands speaking peoples of Africa. Bantu, coming 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: from the Zulu wood for people, is a language family 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: spoken by approximately four hundred distinct ethnic groups and splinto 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: approximately four hundred forty six eighty distinct languages slash dialects, 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: born as a result of the great band to migrations 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: that it could in two major waves about three thousand 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: and two thousand years ago across Central, East and South Africa. 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: Contrary to the maxim I think therefore, I am Ubuntu, 16 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: roughly translated from the Guinibantu languages like Osa and Zulu, 17 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: means humanity and more specifically humanity towards others. I am 18 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: because you are. There are of course, various names to 19 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: the concept, from language to language and ethnic group to 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: ethnic group, including Boto, Muntu, Umundu, Batu, Utu, etc. But 21 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: Ubuntu is definitely the most prominent and internationally recognized. According 22 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: to the African Journal of Social Work, Buntu is a 23 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: collection of values and practices the people of Africa or 24 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: of African origin view as making people authentic human beings. Rather, 25 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: nuances of these values and practices vary across different ethnic groups, 26 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: they all point to one thing, an authentic individual human 27 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: being is part of a larger and more significant relational, communal, societal, environmental, 28 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: and spiritual world. This of course, is not unique to Africa. 29 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: What's any specific culture or any specific ethnic group. I 30 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: think we're finally sort of mirroring ideas in a variety 31 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: of contexts, because I think it really is something that's 32 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: fundamentally human. But I think it is good to look 33 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: at how these ideas have manifested in those more specific contexts. 34 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: I mean, in the oral literature of South Africa, with 35 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: pointersminning existence from as early as the mid nineteenth century. 36 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: The reported translations for the term have covered the field 37 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: of human nature, humanness, humanity, virtue, goodness, and kindness. And 38 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: so it's meant to be a sort of a parallel 39 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: to the abstract idea of humanity as a philosophy or 40 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: as a world view. A buntu really was popularized in 41 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of the nineteen fifties, most of them be 42 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: in the writings of Jordan Kushan Gabani published in the 43 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: African Drum magazine. From then into the nineteen seventies, bunta 44 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: began to be used as a specific form of African 45 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: humanism because, of course, in that sixties and seventies period 46 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: you had a lot of afrocentric and pan African and 47 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: black power ideas coming to prominence around the world. This 48 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: is of course also coincided with the period of decolonization, 49 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: or rather formal political independence. It was taken place in 50 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, and this desire for these newly independent countries 51 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: to pursue Africanization, to sort of let go of some 52 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: of the symbolic aspects of colonial rule. Of course, that 53 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: process us has not really been completes and in many 54 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: ways the postcluonial status is equivalent to the clunial status. 55 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: But in some ways some leaders were trying to pursue 56 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: a sort of a new African specific humanism as a 57 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: philosophy for the bushoning countries at the time. It is 58 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: a part of the episode where we tell everyone to 59 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: read final again of course read Fano and reads is there. 60 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: But I found interested as that this this term ubuntu 61 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: is idea of Ubuntu particularly found it's It was specifically 62 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: picked up in Zimbabwe and in South Africa in a 63 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: very specific context where there was a transition to majority rule. 64 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty Ubuntu is m or hun whu is 65 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: um was presented as the political ideology you have newly 66 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: independent Zimbabwe. A guy named Stan lack ajwt sam Kange 67 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: published a treatise basically on who who is a more 68 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: Buntuism or zimbabwe indigenous political philosophy, and he was basically 69 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: trying to outline what the three major maxims that she 70 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: this philosophy should be. Of course, I would note that 71 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: his interpretation being a statesman is notably hierarchical, but for 72 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: the reasons I will go into a bit later, I 73 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: don't believe that makes the core of hunt necessarily hierarchical. 74 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: But the three maxims that he had in mind for 75 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: Buntuism or who who is Um was that to be 76 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: human is to affirm one's humanity by recognizing humanity of 77 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: others and on that basis establish in respectful human relations 78 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: with them. The second maxim means that if and when 79 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: one is faced with a site of choice between wealth 80 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: and the preservation of life of another human being, then 81 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: one should up for the preservation of life. And then 82 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: the third maxim says that the king owed his status, 83 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: including all the powers associated with it, to the will 84 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: of the people under him. As I think that's where 85 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: you get most prominently the sense of hierarchy that would 86 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: pervade sitting interpretations of UBUNTU, this idea of a sort 87 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: of a benevolent rulership, that these benevolent statesmen and kings 88 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: and prime ministers of presidents that they would they were 89 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: just exercising the will of the people. And of course 90 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: this is a mythology that is interpreting, reinterpreted across various 91 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: different regimes. In South Africa, in the nineteen nineties, Bunto 92 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: as a concept was used as sort of a guidance 93 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: ideal for the transition from a part time to majority rule. 94 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: I think around this time is when the international community 95 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: started to hear more about the term ubun two, particularly 96 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: as it appears in the epilogue of the Interim Constitution 97 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: of South Africa published nineteen ninety three. There's a need 98 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: for understanding, but not for vengeance, a need for reparation 99 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: but not for retaliation. I need for ubun two, but 100 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: not for victimization and coote. Of course, as we see 101 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: in South Africa today, that didn't play out very well. 102 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: The understanding has not reached that point, reparations has not 103 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: fully been achieved. And there's a I would say distinct 104 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: lack of ubun two. Yeah, they kind of brought in 105 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: Bank of America instead, which it didn't go great, all right, 106 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: yeah they do. It's very um, it's very big and 107 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: KNYA rewandered ubu munto I think. Um. But like you'll 108 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: see the phrase or that that were a lot around Rwanda, 109 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: and like if you go to the Kigali Genocybe Memorial Museum, 110 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: you'll see it a lot there, right, Like that is 111 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: a country that has with some authoritarian issues, like has 112 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: quite aside the differences which would previously allowed the genocide 113 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: to happen. I guess that's fair to say, yes, yes, 114 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: that's what the Tutsi and the hut yeah yeah, and 115 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: the Ti who often get missed out. Um. Yeah, but 116 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: they Yeah, that's actually, yeah, terrible terrible thing if if 117 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: people ever go to Rwanda, would highly recommend going to Rwanda. 118 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: Like the Kigali Genocyb Memoria Museum is an important thing too. 119 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: It's a very very well curated museum of like you said, 120 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: a terrible terrible thing that happened in South Africa the 121 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: transition to democracy and now Swindell's presidency nineteen eighty four. Um, 122 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: like I said, it really brought the term to more 123 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: well known outside the use And one of the people 124 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: who was a main, main proponent of that was Desmond Tutu, 125 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: who was the chairman of the South African Truth and 126 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: Reconciliation Commission and also a preacher. He sort of advocated 127 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: and Ubuntu theology that was really formative in the development 128 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He sort of moved 129 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: the idea of Untu from simply an African philosophy based 130 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: on African values and community and kinship to Christian values 131 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: and identity with the Creator God. It was a sort 132 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: of a strategy in an attempt to recover from the 133 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: pains and brokenness of apartheid. You know, Ankaran Ubuntu in 134 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: these into the Christian ideals of forgiveness and reconciliation as 135 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: gifts from God for peaceful communal coexistence. And I hopefully 136 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,719 Speaker 1: not being tweet offensive when I say this to me, 137 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: that's a quintessential example of how Christian pacification hampers to 138 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: colonization efforts, because I've seen often that Christian notion of 139 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: forgiveness and reconciliation tuns the blame onto the victims for 140 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: not forgiven and expects a little to nothing from the 141 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: offender Excepaian and apology offense, not even any restitution or reparations. 142 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: And so for all the talk of Ubuntu, theological Ubuntu 143 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: and otherwise, situation South Africa is still very much whack. 144 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: And I think that that idea that oh wellsis is 145 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: in the past, it's over, get over it kind of 146 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: thing is problematic and it's so then it needs to 147 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: be resolved the things so that the colonization is going 148 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: to take place, right, So, putting aside the theological applications 149 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: so on problematic the logical applications. The ubuntuol view is 150 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: echoed in some senses worldwide, you know, social ecology when 151 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,599 Speaker 1: review and mutually all these concepts point to our interconnectedness 152 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: as people and really point to the interconnectness that we 153 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: have as people that our systems I'm certainly not built 154 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: to support. We say that we see that in capitalism. 155 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: You know, capitalism doesn't embrace the interconnectness of all people. 156 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: It places us in opposition with another. It atomizes us, 157 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: it individualizes us. It alienates us from people, from ourselves 158 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: and from others. So we must compete and stuff for 159 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: the stake us survival. Alienation of course in a capitalist context, 160 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: referring to our separation of our abilities from ourselves, making 161 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: us into mere tools for the use and benefit of 162 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: our bosses. I know. The workplace is definitely not something 163 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: that we have. Is that it is based on mutual 164 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: aid or wound too, you know, rather than working together, 165 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: working harmoniously, having access to means of production and sharing 166 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: in an equally place, in situation of a feud, of competition, 167 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: of struggling constantly and being squeezed and wrung out for 168 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: whatever our bosses going to get from us. Yeah, it's 169 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: when you said, like earlier, that one of the key 170 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: tenants was right, like recognizing humanity and other people affirmed 171 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: your own humanity. I might be paraphrasing there, but like 172 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: that's exactly what capitalism doesn't do. It just sees people 173 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: as like a tool to create more capital, to create 174 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: more more income. Like it doesn't recognize humanity. It sees 175 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: you as a means, not an ends, right exactly, And 176 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean unlike in a communal system where your service 177 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: to others, you know, it's mutual, it's reciprocal, it's voluntary. 178 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: We find ourselves in a situation where we must give 179 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: away our labor, our time, and really our whole lives 180 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: just to survive. But that giving is not done out 181 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: to the goodness of our hearts or or as part 182 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: of a system, a sort of a network of support, 183 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: a safety nets or anything. It's just clawing towards survival, 184 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, disconnected from the well being and the whole. Yeah, 185 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: very much. Everything around us has been you know, manufactured, 186 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: it's been transport, has been assembled and sold by other people, right, 187 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: people just like us, workers, just like us. Those people 188 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: have of lives just like ours. They have all the 189 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: same struggles that we do. But instead of relating to 190 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: these people, instead of freely sharing the fruit to our labor, 191 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: relating to the things that we have to buy, or 192 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: we don't see the work in people behind them. Yeah, 193 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: I think another aspect of it is that which I 194 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: find physically strange about. You know, the hundhu is m 195 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: aubuntuism that some Kange was trying to advocate, is that 196 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: I don't believe that Ubuntu or mutual lead, or any 197 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: of the principles that are bunto exposes is something that 198 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: the state is compatible with. Um. I don't think the 199 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: state is compatible with the acknowledgment of one's responsibility to 200 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: their fellow humans and the world around them. You know, 201 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: the state is built an exclusion on domination and deprivation 202 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: and the hierarchical division of the state generating the sort 203 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: of inequality and decision making power and influencing O affairs. 204 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: It's about depriving certain people and elevating others, whereas Ubuntu 205 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: is supposed to be about the importance of the humanity 206 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: of both the individual in the community and about how 207 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: all people are connected in a way that is meant 208 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: to support and add to and contribute and clean and 209 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: service one another. If that makes sense. You don't like 210 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: the idea of this sort of community where everyone is 211 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: giving and sharing and taking, and everybody has something to 212 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: contribute to this human whole. I feel like there's something 213 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: that's lost when that whole is disrupted by certain people 214 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: being elevated to a status of having more power over others. 215 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: I mean, part of that humanity has to entail freedom 216 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: to self organized, freedom to associate, freedom to disassociate, decision 217 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: making power, autonomy, you know. Otherwise, what kind of humanity 218 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: is that? Really? How can people access their full humanity 219 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: in themselves if they're being deprived by others? On how 220 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: can those others who are depriving people have access their 221 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: full humanity when they're depriving others If you get what 222 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying, Yeah, yeah, I think that's perfectly right. Yeah, 223 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: And I mean pretty much the same thing with the 224 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: system I mean with the capitalism, with the state, I 225 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: mean patriarchy, which also elevates some people above others and 226 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: denies those marginalized others full access the humanity. All of 227 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: us are restricted in some ways from understanding ourselves in 228 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: ourselves and through others by the ideology and system of patriarchy. 229 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: And of course the schools are out saying, but what 230 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: could be more incompatible with the Buntu than clue in theselve? 231 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: You know, doesn't simply deny the humanity of those that exploit, 232 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: it also strips the humanity the exploiters. I mean Assa 233 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: my referenced earlier wrote in Discourse and Clunism. Colonization works 234 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: to decivilize the colonizer, to brutalize him in the sense 235 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: of the in a true sense of the wood, to 236 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: degrade him and to awaken him to buried instincts, to covetousness, violence, race, hatred, 237 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: and more relativism. And we must show that each time 238 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: a head is cut off or an eye put out 239 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: in Vietnam and in France, they accept the fact, each 240 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: time a little girl is assaulted, and in France they 241 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: accept the fact each time a Madagascar is tortured, And 242 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: in France they accept the fact. Civilization acquires another deadweight, 243 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: a universal regression takes place, a gang green sets in, 244 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: a center of infection begins to spread. And that at 245 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: the end of all these treatise, treaties that have been violated, 246 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: while these lines that have been propagated, all these punitive 247 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: expeditions that have been tolerated, all these prisoners who have 248 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: been tied up, been interrogated, all these patriots who have 249 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: been tortured at the end of all the racial pride, 250 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: it has been encouraged, all the boastfulness that has been displayed, 251 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: A poison has been instilled into the veins of Europe, 252 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: and slowly, but surely, the continent proceeds towards savagery, powerful 253 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: words as usual from that great Yeah, that's very good. Yeah. So, 254 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a lot of potential in 255 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: the interpretation of a bound too right, which is both 256 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: a flaw and a strength. And when I get into 257 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: the criticism a bit more, you'll see why. But regardless, 258 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: of course, there's value to be gleaned from diou understandings. 259 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: There's power in finding our roots to secure our future. 260 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: And whether in a partnership and affinity group, an organization, 261 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: a community, or beyond. This basic principle of recognizing the 262 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: authentic individual human being as part of a larger and 263 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: more significant relational, communal society, of environmental and spiritual world 264 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 1: is vital process of social revolution, of confronting the powerful 265 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: through protests and occupations and reclamations and expropriations, in refusing 266 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: to cooperate with the powers to be through strikes and 267 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: boycotts and mutinies and other forms of interaction, and then 268 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 1: building new institutions like cooperatives and popular assemblies and libraries 269 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: and things. All of those things, all those aspects of 270 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: social revolution allow us to assert ourselves, to recognize the 271 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: mutual and ecater and connection of all people. You know, 272 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: a pot smith, the boon two is open and available 273 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: to others. It's afflaming to others. I feel threatened that 274 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: others are able and good. And so by recognizing with 275 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: the boon to, you know, recognize energy are part of 276 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: a greater whole. That whole is diminished when others are 277 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: humiliated or diminished when others are tortured or oppressed. And 278 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: so someone with a boon to, someone who recognizes the 279 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: interconnectness of all humanity is someone who has to be 280 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: engaged in some form of social revolution, who has to 281 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: be engaged in trying to free people, help people free 282 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: themselves so that they can engage in their own humanity, 283 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: and so add to your own humanity in turn. And 284 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: when it comes to the commons common ownership, you know, 285 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: the reversal of the enclosure movement socialization, but if you 286 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: want to call it, that is also something that ultimately 287 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: is about the bonds between people, about the distribution of 288 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: the means of production and of the fruits of all 289 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: of our labor, so that all can enjoy, so that 290 00:20:46,280 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: all can have fested interest in our collective prosperity. When 291 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: it comes to you know, community work, you know, unto 292 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: is about this idea that we can work together, you know, 293 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 1: in growing our food and distributing when we need um. 294 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: This idea that being a mother or being a father, 295 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: being a parent, it's not just about being that to 296 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: your own biological children, but rather in recognizing that we 297 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: are all connected in that we it's it's like a 298 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: it's I can understanding that there should not be this 299 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: idea of all funds right, this idea that we're all 300 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,719 Speaker 1: meant to look out for each other, that no person 301 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: is meant to be cut off from the sort of 302 00:21:53,359 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: care that is necessary for carrying into fully realized So 303 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: I mean even in the realm of education, you see 304 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: potential applications if we're going to and recognizing that everyone 305 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: has different skills and strengths, that people are not isolated, 306 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: and that through mutual support they can help each other 307 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: to complete themselves. As Autry Tang argues, I mean, I 308 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: think there needs to be an education that recognizes the 309 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: importance of community, society, and environmental well being, one that 310 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: emphasizes the connection between all those things, one that involves interaction, participation, recognition, respect, 311 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: and inclusion as core tenants of the learning process, of 312 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: students learning from facilitators and the facilitators learning from students, 313 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: of recognizing that we hold both positions, and that those 314 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: positions are held from the moment we're born to the 315 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: moment one we eventually pass on as rich as the 316 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: potential of Unto. Maybe I don't want to put it 317 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: out as if it's some sort of like flawless and 318 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: perfect philosophy, right, it's not above critique, it's not immune. 319 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: As I mentioned before, it's hierarchical interpretations and applications. It's 320 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: very much right for liberal sensibilities, as we've seen Departments 321 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: of State speaking of Untu diplomacy and Bunto foreign policy. 322 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: And that's sort of thing. Some kanas idea that you know, 323 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: part of a buontoo is that the king oways a 324 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: status including all the powers associate with it to wild 325 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: people under him. I mean right now and for a 326 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: while now, Boons has not had a single solid framework 327 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: of what exactly entails, what it makes up, what it doesn't. 328 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: There's still a lot of fuzziness and inconsists didn't see 329 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: within different people's interpretations of the definition of untu. As 330 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: one scholar in Yasham Booti has noted, there's an interpretation, 331 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: so an interpretation of a buntu that sea is Africans 332 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: has you know, naturally interdependence and harmony seeking. That humanity 333 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: is given to a person buying through of the persons. 334 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: But there's a sort of a trap in that because 335 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: humanity is also pretty messy. The relationships between between people 336 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: can also be very messy. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. 337 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: You know, a broken relationship is as authentically human as 338 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: a harmonious relationship. You know, a broken relationship can also 339 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: be more ethical than a harmonious relationship. Booti points to, 340 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,959 Speaker 1: for example, the freedom that follows from a break from 341 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: oppression that follows from a break from a relationship of 342 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: domination to want of freedom. And of course this idea 343 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: that harmonies relationships incapable of being oppressive is false. You know, 344 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: a harmonia's relationship can be quite oppressive. In the Dynamics team, 345 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: people that are hidden under that veal of Honkey Dory, 346 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: you know. So, I mean there's a lot of there's 347 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot too Ubuntu, there's a lot of good to 348 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: be cleaned, a lot of potential pitfalls to be avoided. 349 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: So you know, take what's the value, leave what's not, 350 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: Engage critically, what's your plans, and have a good day. 351 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 352 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 353 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 354 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 355 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 356 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone meta dot com slash sources. Thanks 357 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: for listening.