1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey what this stuff to blow your Mind? 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and I'm Julie and we 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: covered the topic of pain before on this podcast. We 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: talked about the future of pain pain management. We've stipped 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: their toes from the whole discuption of where does pain 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: come from? The factor into our experience of reality. In 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: this episode, we really want to get into the question 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 1: why do we seek out pain? I mean, we've all 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: seen images, We've all seen footage of various h ritualistic 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 1: pain exercises going on around the globe, and a lot 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: of us have probably asked why, why would they do that? 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Why are they doing that? Why is that person sticking 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: that sharp thing through their body right now completely of 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: their own free will? Why why are they engaging in 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: self harm? What are they getting out of it? And uh, 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating question. We start breaking it apart when 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: you start, when you start looking at the studies that 19 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: have examined the benefits of pain, that the weird crossover 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: between pleasure and pain. Um, and so that is what 21 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: we're attempting to tackle in this episode. Yeah, and I 22 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: wanted to mention real quick, we are just exploring this topic. 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: We are of course, not advocating that anyone undergo feats 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: of of pain so that they can achieve some sort 25 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: of transcendence. This is just kind of looking at pain 26 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: and pleasure and the social aspects of why people would 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: engage in pain, what sort of benefits, why would they 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: do it. It's an exploration of these different questions. Um. 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: And the best way to get at it is to 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: really look at some of the more historical rituals of pain. 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: I say, for me, one of the earliest examples that 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: became aware of was Christian flagellation. Uh. And this is 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: probably from like seeing the movie The Name of the 34 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: Rose at a real early age, and there's a scene 35 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: in there where the monk is punishing himself by by 36 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: striking his back flashes and uh, you know, and and 37 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: at the time I was too going to really understand 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: all that was going on in that scenario, but it 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,119 Speaker 1: had an impact on me. Here's somebody that is has 40 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: devoted their life to God and they are inflicting pain 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: upon themselves. Well. And of course to tie that even more, 42 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: I grew up in in the Christian church, and so 43 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: I always was confronted to the point of almost not 44 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: seeing it, this image of someone suffering on the cross. 45 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: But but more on that later. Yeah, and my first, 46 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: I guess you would say introduction to mortification of the 47 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: flesh for spiritual reasons was the hair shirt, which is, 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, a sort of a signature of some early 49 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: Christian sex who are doing penance for what they perceived 50 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: as a sin. And the idea is that you have 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: this shirt that looks maybe great on the outside, but 52 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: on the inside it'sligned with course goat's hair, and it's 53 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: meant to be this fleshly reminder of your transgression. And 54 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: some people even would weave um twigs or thin wires, 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: and so this idea that this constant irritation is a 56 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: reminder that you you are not only expressing your faith 57 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: in the transgression that that occurred, but also you're trying 58 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: to train your soul into the right direction with this 59 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: fleshly reminder. There's a great a parody of of this 60 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: kind of a thing. And of course the money Python 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: and the Holy Grail, where you see the monks uh 62 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,839 Speaker 1: in a line filing through the village and then they're 63 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: they're chanting something in Latin and then smacking themselves in 64 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: the face with a board. Uh. And but they're they're 65 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: playing on the tradition of the flagelens who uh. In 66 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: the fourteenth century, you know, amid this atmosphere of fear 67 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 1: and uncertainty, I mean, you had war raging, you had 68 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: black death creeping from door to door, and all the 69 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: while supposedly God's watching on high rather unmoved by all 70 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: of this. So you end up speaking the language of pain. 71 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's what this is all about. It's 72 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: it's about seeking penance for the sin of the world 73 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: two con penance through through physical punishment of the self. 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: And so they're walking around, they're punishing themselves and trying 75 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: to sort of take the sins of the world upon them, saying, look, 76 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: if essentially laying out the argument, alright, God, if I 77 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: beat myself enough times, well you may be just lighten 78 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: the load on all of us. Yeah. And there's a 79 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: kind of obedience factor at play there as well as 80 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: this sort of like self rigor. Yeah. And of course 81 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: all of this is taking place within a faith that 82 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: has at its center a man suffering and dying on 83 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: an instrument of torture. So the story of pain, the 84 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: story of suffering, permeates the entire world view. Now you 85 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: can also look at Islam for another example of mortification 86 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: of the flesh. Yes, the Islamic day of Ashura, this 87 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: is a time when some Shia Muslims practice self flagellation 88 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: on the day to commemorate the suffering of a mom Hussaying, 89 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: the grandson of the prophet Moham, the suffering and death 90 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: of the of your mom Hussein um and and so 91 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, this is another example of of of them engaging, 92 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: re enacting, feeling the pain of of of an existing 93 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: story within their faith. Yeah. But I think it's interesting 94 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: about that is that that this metaphorical thing at the 95 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: same time they are bringing the physical body into it. 96 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: But transcendence is certainly at play here, and devotion is 97 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: at play. And then you have various firewalking rituals around 98 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: the world. Indeed, Uh, there are a number of examples 99 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: that we mentioned in our episode on firewalking. So if 100 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: you want a deeper dive into the science of firewalking, 101 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: the trick trickery of firewalking, Uh, that's definitely a podcast 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: you should listen to. But again, this. This takes place 103 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: around the world everywhere, from from corporate retreats to the 104 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: Christian firework work walking tradition in northern Greece, the festival 105 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: of Anistonaria. This is when, uh, it's all about the 106 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 1: eyea that sat Constantine protects them from being burned because 107 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: they they have this faith in them and devotion to him. Um. 108 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: But it's it's essentially walking across hot coals. Yeah, and 109 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: if you can do it without you know, crying out 110 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: or without pain, then surely you must be the most devoted. 111 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: But when in fact we know that we have really 112 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: thick soles on our feet and handsually it's from from 113 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: heat pretty well. But you know, it's again, it gets 114 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: complicated in all of these rituals because there's obviously they're 115 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: gonna be varying degrees of actual pain, but an actual 116 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: physical pain. But layered upon all of that is the 117 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: storytelling and the experience and and some of the scientific 118 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: principles that were going to discuss later on. Now. The 119 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: next is this next example is from a vegetarian festival 120 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: in Thailand, which sounds just doesn't it sound lovely? Like 121 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: I bet that there there's all sorts of like wonderful 122 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: archies and old cheeses you can get and um, but 123 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: the Tie are known for their arties cheese. Yeah, lots 124 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: of tie to eye right now. But no, it does 125 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: sound great because you're thinking of vegetarian tie. I love 126 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: Vegetarian Tide and the kids. It's a little more complicated 127 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: than that, however. Um. The Food Cat Vegetarian Festival is 128 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: is certainly colorful. It's held over a nine day period 129 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: in October, and it celebrates the Chinese community's belief that 130 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: absinence from meat and various stimulants during the ninth lunar 131 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: month of the Chinese calendar will help them obtain good 132 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: health and peace of mind. And amid this, you see firewalking, 133 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: you see body piercing and other acts of self mortification 134 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: that are all about the participants acting as ultimately as 135 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: as mediums for the gods. Yeah, they removed parts to 136 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: their skin, performed blood letting, and pale their cheeks and 137 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: limbs with anything from knives and skewers to antlers and umbrellas. 138 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: Didn't she say that even saw a lamp. Yes, I 139 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: think I saw a lamp in one image, but that 140 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: it's interesting that this is a festival where you see 141 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: the bodily mortification and as well as simply altering your diet, 142 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: again showing that there's a there's a broad spectrum UH 143 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: that entails self punishment and self denial, that they're all 144 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 1: ultimately kind of shades of the same thing, and again 145 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: wrapped within ritual, wrapped within worldview and belief. And I 146 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: know you want to get hit that big theme, but 147 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: I have to go back to something pretty pedestrian. The 148 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: crowd gets in by throwing firecrackers at the people who 149 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: are doing these actors of mortification of the flesh. I'm 150 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: just saying to add a little little extra, well, a 151 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: little vegas. Yeah, and it's it is important. This will 152 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: come up as we get into some of the studies. 153 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: But not only are the people suffering and we're at 154 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: least engaging in physical pain in these UH rituals important, 155 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: but the people beholding it are important. And we'll talk 156 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: about the the social construct behind this because it's pretty fascinating. 157 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: Another festival that you might want to attend is the 158 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: Hindu tithe for some festival. Yes, this is a festival 159 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: celebrity mostly by the Hamil community. On the full moon 160 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: of the Tamil month of Thai that's January February, and 161 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: the festival commemorates the occasion when when Povarty gave murro 162 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: Gun a special spear to defeat the demon Sporadamon so on. 163 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: On this day of the festival, devotes will shave their 164 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: heads and they'll undertake a pilgrimage on a set road 165 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: while engaging in various acts devotion. Notably, they're carrying out 166 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: different types of burdens or cavati UH and UH. In 167 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: its simplest form, this can entail simply carrying a pot 168 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: of milk, but it also can involve mortification of the flesh, 169 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: piercing of the skin, tongue, or cheeks with skewers is 170 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: one of the examples that you you will generally see in 171 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: UH in any photos of this event, certainly the photos 172 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: that tend to you know, make the way around the internet, 173 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: and again people end up looking at these and they're saying, 174 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,719 Speaker 1: who are these people? Why are they doing this thing 175 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: that they do? Uh? And as we're unrolling, we see 176 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: examples of this in there in all sorts of worldviews, 177 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: all sorts of religious rituals around the world. Yeah, and 178 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: less do you judge too quickly. Again, hang on, because 179 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about some other modern day things 180 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: that we do that are on par with this um. 181 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: But one of the things that's brought up in this 182 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: festival is that sometimes pierced worshippers are sometimes attached to 183 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: ropes um with the hooks that are in their bodies, 184 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: and then they're pulled by other devotes and they are 185 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: suspended in the air from their flesh suspension. Yes, which 186 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,479 Speaker 1: figures pretty prominently in the oky Paw hook suspension ceremony. 187 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: This is a Native American um ritual. Yeah, And this 188 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: is generally takes place in a big and closed tent. 189 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: An individual would have been u would have multiple hooks 190 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: put into their skin because you can't just have one 191 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: because it justs It's kind of the bed of nail scenario, right. 192 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: A bet of one nail means you're gonna have a 193 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: nail sticking in your back. A bet of multiple nails 194 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: means that your your weight is distributed evenly. It's an 195 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: engineering solution basically. Of course, that's not not to say 196 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: that there's there's a lack of pain in the hook 197 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: suspension ceremony. You have physical pain you have this lifting 198 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: off the ground. There's almost ascension motif taking place. And 199 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: then in the individual UH is in the throes of 200 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: this sensation. UM. A number of people out there are 201 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: probably familiar with this or probably having some sort of 202 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: you know, flag go off in their head because Richard 203 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: Harris UH engaged in this in the film UM A 204 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: Man called Horse, which is an old Western and UH 205 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: And I remember catching part of it or seeing an 206 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: ad for it on TBS when I was a kid, 207 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: and I remember looking at and thinking, Oh, that's horrible. 208 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: What the what what these people ended up doing to 209 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: this Richard Harris character in this film, I don't want 210 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: to see that at the time, not realizing, not not 211 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: knowing that this was actually, you know, voluntary ritual. That again, 212 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: pain and pleasure are for more complex than we give 213 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: them give them credit. Yeah, the mannd In tribe is 214 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: one of the tribes known UM to practice this, and 215 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: they would suspend young warrior an annual rite of passage 216 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: ceremony that was celebrating the creation of the earth. Now, 217 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: another example that comes to mind, H and this is 218 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: the one that relates back to Christianity. UH. In the Philippines, 219 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: you see get Catholics in the Philippines every year engaging 220 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: in re enactments of the Passion of the Christ. So 221 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 1: we're talking actual self crucifixion. Well, I say self crucifixion. 222 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: But to engage in cruisiveiicition, you generally need a little help. 223 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: It's kind of a hard thing to do one handed. 224 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: But and in this we're seeing them actually physically with pain, 225 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: reenact the pivotal scene of torture and death at the 226 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: center of the Christian faith. And you know, we're not 227 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: talking hundreds of people. Sometimes I've seen accounts where you're 228 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: generally looking at maybe a dozen two dozen Um Filipino 229 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: is engaging in this is a particular practice. But but 230 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: then people were watching, and by watching, you're also taking 231 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: part in the ritual. Well, and this isn't you far 232 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: away from from some of the feats of physical strength 233 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: or endurance that someone in the gym Rose circus might undergo. Indeed, 234 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,119 Speaker 1: you see people lining up to see physical spectacle, spectacles 235 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: of that that seemed to have suffering involved in them 236 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: all the time. And just within the the whole world 237 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: of the Passion of the Christ, you see plenty of 238 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: reenactments of that UH, throughout the Christian world that don't 239 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: entail actual physical suffering, but they are a reenactment all 240 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: of this event. And really, I mean when you when 241 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: you get down to it, just a reenactment of it 242 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: without the pain and just a physical image of it 243 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: is on some level pretty intense, kind of disturbing. I mean, again, 244 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: you see it enough times you tend to not see 245 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: it anymore, but there it is. Indeed, now, if you 246 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: end up listening to this podcast on the website, I'll 247 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: make sure that I have a gallery that goes up 248 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: that includes some images from some of these festivals and 249 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: a few that we didn't mention, because again, there are 250 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: various rituals, various rights that place around the world that 251 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: involve physical pain. But that does not mean that the 252 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: religious world UH has a monopoly on this sort of thing. 253 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: You see an entire secular tradition of self inflicted or 254 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: at least voluntary UM receiving of pain in the b 255 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: D s M community, or giving pain which also yes, yes, 256 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: the giving and the receiving very much. But it's important 257 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: to note that we're within the b d S b 258 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: D s N theme we're talking about, UH, a consensual arrangement. 259 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: And within b D s M also you see an 260 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: entire spectrum. You see you see just you know, individuals 261 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: lightly spanking one another. You also see individuals engaging in suspension, 262 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: body modification, etcetera. And then also sometimes suspension is winds 263 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: up as part of art, part of performance art. In 264 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: our performance art episode we mentioned the performer Steel Arc, 265 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: and of course he's engaged in various UM thought provoking 266 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: but at times disturbing UM per performances that involve bodily 267 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: modification on some level or another. And he's engaged in 268 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: uh uh in suspension rituals if you will, several times 269 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: in the past. Within b D s M. It's not 270 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: always about sex. As we'll talk about later, there's there's 271 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: um sort of a transcendent component to this. Now to 272 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: talk about probably the most consensual relationship you could have. 273 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: UM one would be your morning workout in yourself right, 274 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: presumably that's consensual, because what's the big thing, right? Feel 275 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: the burn? Right? Yeah, I mean it's we we have 276 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: we whether we're you're going out in the morning and 277 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: doing your morning run, if you're fitting in you know, 278 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: time at the yoga studio, if you're you know, furiously 279 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: doing push ups or pull ups in the afternoon. There's 280 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: always this You're pushing yourself, and you're often pushing yourself 281 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: into an area that is on some level uncomfortable, but 282 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: then also rewarding also at the time, even kind of 283 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: physical rewarding, as opposed to just after the fact. Uh So, 284 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: if nothing else, think to your own exercise routine when 285 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: we're discussing all of this, because because you see shadows 286 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: of a lot of it just in that. Yeah, I mean, 287 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: pushing the envelope of of your abilities does put you 288 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: sometimes into that pain area. But there's a certain kind 289 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: of pleasure in that. Alright, we're gonna take a quick break, 290 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: and when we get back, we are going to talk 291 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: about the crossover with pain and pleasure. All Right, we're back. 292 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: We're discussing pain does in a pain. We've already laid 293 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: out a number of examples. Uh some of which are 294 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: are probably exotic to you, and then some of which 295 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: are right down home and in your living room. And 296 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: in all this, I also keep thinking of, what's that 297 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: awful song that had that line hurts so good, Make 298 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: it hurt so good, John Sugar, that's so good? Come 299 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: that's so good. That was the share version, the share 300 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: versions of one I'm thinking of. But that's that lyric 301 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: is great because at first it seems the paradoxical, Right, 302 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: hurt so good? How can it hurt so good? Hurt 303 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: is bad. It's kind of like that line in Roadhouse 304 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: where Patrick Swayzy says, pain don't hurt? How could pain 305 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: not hurt? Paint hurt? Pain is hurt. Pain. This is 306 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: what it's doing. What are you talking about, Soyzy? But 307 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: wow a Roadhouse reference? Yeah, Roadhouse is a isn't its 308 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: way a great film? I've seen it multiple times? Yeah? 309 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: I mean because they're not only bouncers, they're bouncer philosophers. Well, 310 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: and that's kind of a good example of how your 311 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: a magdala is also doing double duty. Right, it's a 312 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: bouncer of your emotions and a philosophizer of your emotions. 313 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: Because the thing that we know is that the amgdala 314 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: processes both pain physically and emotionally, and also processes other 315 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: emotions like pleasure and fear and joy. So it would 316 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: make sense that the perception of whether it's from like 317 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: social rejection or whether it's from an injury to your 318 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: flesh would be bound up in one another. Not to 319 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: mention the other things that we feel in life. Indeed, 320 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: back in two thousand two is an example this. Harvard 321 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: researchers UH conducted an experiment with a heated the hands 322 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: of eight volunteers to the point of pain while they 323 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: underwent brain scans, and the scan showed activity not only 324 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: in brain regions typically associated with pain, but also in 325 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: those devoted to enjoying pleasurable things like food, drugs, and sects. 326 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: So there we see that crossover, and this leads us 327 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: next to a substance we're always talking about when it 328 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: comes to human behavior and human desires and our reward system, 329 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: and that is of course dopamine. Yeah, Because what we 330 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: have is we've got this thing called the nucleus that 331 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: commins and it's a neural network in the middle of 332 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: the brain. It's the engine of the reward response, which 333 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: deals a lot in dopamine. And in a study led 334 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: by John Levine at the University of San Francisco, it 335 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: was determined that the reward way activates pain relief through 336 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: the release of both opioids, which is a morphine like 337 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: drug produced by the body and dopamine, which is that 338 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: chemical messenger whose effects can be mimicked by amphetamine and cocaine. 339 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: That's why that's so hard to beat addiction. So the 340 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: findings overturned this long held assumption that the release of 341 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: dopamine and the nucleus cucumbens is associated only with positive experiences. 342 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Here we see examples of it being released in a 343 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: pain context. Now, can bear in mind that we're talking 344 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: about rituals in a lot of these cases as well, 345 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: and rituals in and of themselves can be arousing, and 346 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: his rituals become more arousing, they can trigger hormones and 347 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: stimulate the reward system of the brain. Uh. This, according 348 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: to anthropologist dmitri Zygolattis, can cause sensations such as pain 349 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: and fear to transform into pleasural experiences through a spike 350 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: in the neurotransmitter dopamine, in an increase in neuropeptides called endorphins, 351 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: which bind the brains opiate receptors and produce the same 352 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: soothing euphoria felt by a marathon runner. Again, we come 353 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: back to exercise, we come around to the runners high. Yeah, 354 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: that's a good way to contextualize this, Like why would 355 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: dopamine be released when I'm experiencing pain right, well, because 356 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: it because these sort of things are crossed over in 357 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,239 Speaker 1: one another in the brain, and because this is very 358 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: much learned behavior, it doesn't matter what the thing is 359 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: that makes the dopamine happen. You're going to go to 360 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: the thing. If it becomes routinized enough. It could be food, 361 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: it could be pain, and that is why it could 362 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: hurt so good. But another way that it could hurt 363 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: so good is if it doesn't hurt as much as 364 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: you expected it to hurt. This is pretty interesting, according 365 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: to a two thousand thirteen study from the University of Oslo, 366 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: of pain that hits less severely than expected, as in, 367 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: you didn't spank me nearly as hard as I thought 368 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: you would. That can give us a rush of release 369 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: or even something like pleasure, which is kind of interesting. 370 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about it in the context of 371 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: Adel and that's thanks to knowl, our producer, because he 372 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: had brought up that her song Somebody Like You is 373 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: a real not in addition to it being a real 374 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: tear jerker for people, that it has this thing that 375 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: it's doing and it's creating a sort of I don't 376 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: know if I would call it pain, but maybe metaphorical 377 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: pain in the brain. In other words, it has this 378 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: highly dismant chord directly on that you lyric, So somebody 379 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: like you and she messes with that with that you lyric. 380 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: And the reason why this is problematic for the brain 381 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: is because the brain likes a nice pattern and up 382 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: until then, there's been this pattern that it can follow 383 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: along with. But just that one little change and that 384 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: you lyric creates this f zone. This this this friction 385 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: in the brain, and that's when you see the um 386 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: the moment before dopamine is released in the brain because 387 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: as soon as that friction gets resolved within then the 388 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: next chord, which then follows back into a pattern, the 389 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: brain is almost like, oh, that didn't feel as bad 390 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: as I thought it was going to I was. And 391 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: this is just in music and on the symbolic level. 392 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: So that's why I bring it up, because when we're 393 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: talking about perceptions of discomfort in pain, we're meeting them 394 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: in different scenarios in our life, even in songs. I 395 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: think this is a great point bringing up the pattern 396 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: recognition because, uh, from what I've I've read a lot 397 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: of these B D s M situations and we're you know, 398 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about the lower end of the spectrum, not 399 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: hanging from hooks. But you know, it's not a situation 400 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: where someone says, all right, spank me eight times, and 401 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: then someone spanks them eight times as hard as they can. 402 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: They're gonna be varying levels of pain, varying level of sensation, 403 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes pleasurable and painful. They're going on there, 404 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: and the brain inevitably of the person receiving these sensations, 405 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: they're gonna inevitably try to identify the patterns and find 406 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: the patterns in this, uh, this this chorus of pain 407 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: and pleasure that they are receiving, which kind of gets 408 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: us into this next section and which we talk about 409 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: the community of pain because you know, obviously a person 410 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: can do this, can engage in acts of pain unto themselves. 411 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: But we see so many different scenarios, not just in 412 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: historical context, in which people will engage in this kind 413 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: of ritual as a sort of bonding experience. And this 414 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: we have to refer to an excellent article by anthropologist 415 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: Dmitries like a Lattis we mentioned earlier, is an article 416 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: Trial by Fire from Firewalking to the Ice Bucket Challenge, 417 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: Ritual pain and suffering forge intense social bonds, and this 418 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: was published online in the excellent Eon magazine. UM. According 419 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: to Zagats, cognitive dissonance theory holds that when we uh, 420 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: when the cost or the effort spent in pursuing a 421 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 1: goal is disproportionately higher than its reward. Uh, this this 422 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: this dissonance that we feel this uh, this this gap 423 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: between the cost and the and the and the product. 424 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: Out of that, we end up with this like an 425 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: area of mental stress. Right. We No one wants to 426 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: to pay more for a product than it's worth. No 427 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: one wants to suffer for something that's ultimately not worth suffering. 428 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: So what do you do? Your mind is reorganizes everything 429 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: and ends up engaging in what they call effort justification. 430 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: So it's it's like if someone says, hey, that roared 431 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: you got you really had to go through hell to 432 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: get it? Was it worth it? Of course it was 433 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: worth it, because I I There's no way I did 434 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: all of that for nothing. There's no way that that 435 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: badge is not worth all the effort I put into it. Yeah. 436 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: A good example of this again brought to us by 437 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: to meet j Zic Lattis is quote. In a classic 438 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: psychology experiment conducted in nineteen fifty nine, the psychologist Elliott 439 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: Aaronson of Stanford and Jensen Mills of the United States 440 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: Army found that people who had to go through a 441 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: highly embarrassing situation in order to join a discussion group 442 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: subsequently reported liking the group more. And a follow up 443 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: study researchers used electric shocks and found that those who 444 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: received severe shocks before entering the group valued their membership 445 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: more than those who received merely mild ones. Very interesting, 446 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: and that that instantly brings to mind various rights of 447 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: passage that exists out there, from physically painful rights of 448 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: passages that involve bodily modification to even uh, you know, 449 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: some of the examples of hazing out there in university settings. 450 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: That's what I was just thinking. This is ritual abuse, 451 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: this practice, and in fraternities have what they call hell week, right, 452 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: that's when you are indoctrinated into this group. And we're 453 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: talking about sexual abuse. In some cases, we're talking about 454 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: the forced consumption of mind altering drugs and alcohol and 455 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: during feats of strength and pain like boiling hot water 456 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: on the back right, um, drinking pitchers of water until 457 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: your brain swells. So here you see a very communal aspect, 458 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: and in particularly through the lens of fraternity, you see 459 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: how it becomes that much more important that you gain 460 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: that membership because you put your body in mind on 461 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: the line. You know. In there perhaps softer examples of 462 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: this too when you see uh see, like corporate retreats, 463 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: people go on go out on this retreat, they go 464 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: through certain experiences that are probably not all that painful, 465 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: but it's the community aspect of it. It's the price 466 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: that you're paying for it. Um does non trust falls? Um? 467 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: You know. Also arguably boot camp in a military question, 468 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: and you're going through what is bile accounts, uh, you know, 469 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: a physically and emotionally demanding time, but that you're supposed 470 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: to emerge from that at the other end as a 471 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: more cohesive group. Well, I think that's why those types 472 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: of precise classes are so popular in a sense, because 473 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: you do get that that kind of bonding and nobody 474 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: is going at the end of the day say, well, 475 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: they really kind of beat the heart of you. In 476 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: that boot camp class that you took at the park 477 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: was it really worth it. Do you feel better? Of 478 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: course I feel better, because there's no way that I 479 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: got up early to suffer like that for a month 480 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: if I don't feel great now and look at these 481 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: guns now. Another item that it's like a lot of 482 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: stub brings up is the idea of collective effervescence. And 483 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: this comes to us from a French sociologist, Emil Durkheim, 484 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: who argued in elementary forms of religious life, that's the 485 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: popular publication that the collective performance of ritual generates a 486 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: kind of electricity. So this is you know, this, this shock, 487 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: this this ecstatic state of shared excitement. Uh, that just 488 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: kind of moves through a group of people that are 489 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: engaged in a ritual or even in a I mean 490 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: any kind of ritualistic endeavor. So this could be a 491 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: bunch of people singing a them at the local church. 492 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: This could be people engaging in a in the burning 493 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: of an effigy at a at a burning man type event, 494 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: or even engaging in icebreakers at that corporate retreat. Yeah, 495 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, it's about cooperation. 496 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: And we've talked about how this is like one of 497 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: the cornerstones of humanity that's allowed us to be so 498 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: successful as a species. This idea that we're gonna we're 499 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: gonna sign on this dotted line of the social contract 500 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: and say, yes, we'll cooperate. When we get into a 501 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: gym together, we will all stomp our feet together, and 502 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: we will cheer for the team, and we will engage 503 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: in this as a group, and we'll get together as 504 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: a group. Yeah, we're gonna align our emotional states and 505 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: no matter what our differences are, we can agree on 506 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: maybe at least one thing. That Jesus guy is pretty good, 507 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: that that Muhammed guy is pretty good. Jesus is just 508 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: all that. The idea being that within any kind of 509 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: a community that is engaged in since ritualistic endeavor, you're 510 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: gonna see emotional states align. You're gonna there's gonna be 511 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: this core, this uh, the center of the wheel, that 512 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: that everyone is a tune too. Now you might be thinking, okay, fine, 513 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: I get it. People get together, they do things, they 514 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: sync up. But it seems a little like WHOI that 515 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: the pain could be such a ritualized collective event that 516 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: people would willingly submit themselves to this. And we have 517 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: a little study that might underscore the fact that yes, 518 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: people will do this. Yeah. And this one this was 519 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: actually one that zaglots Uh conducted himself, carrying out at 520 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: a during taipoos um Uh, which is we mentioned earlier. 521 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: Of course uh. And of course it's directly related to cavati, 522 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: those burdens that people take on themselves. This was the festival, 523 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: not the vegetarian festivals, but the other one, he said. 524 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: They He found that those who had participated in the 525 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: extreme rituals, again the extreme Cavatis, gave twice as much 526 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: as those who had taken part in collective pair. He 527 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: found that the same high levels of generosity among those 528 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: who had themselves gone through the painful activities of the 529 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: of the Cavati and those who had merely followed the 530 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: procession without engaging in any of this bodily mortification. Just 531 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: as expected, the painful ritual boosted pro social behavior in 532 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: the participants. And then in terms of having that steak 533 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: in the process right or stack in your body, maybe 534 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: there's something called the martyrdom effect. And uh. In two 535 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, the psychologist Christopher olive Ola of the 536 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: University of Warwick and Elder Shephear of Princeton demonstrated what 537 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: is known as this martyrdom effect. And what they had 538 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: is they had a series of experiments in which they 539 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: asked participants to raise money for various charities and found 540 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: that people donated more when they expected to suffer more, 541 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: for example, running five miles versus just attending a lovely picnic, 542 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: or how about dumping a bucket of cold water on 543 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: their head? Right, that sounds odd? What are you talking about? 544 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: Who would do that? Who would do that? Well? A 545 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: lot of people apparently, because uh, the the ALS Association 546 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: of course, raised million dollars millions to help fight the 547 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: A L S. And I assume everyone is familiar with 548 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: this at this point. But if you're not, if somehow 549 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: you missed out on the social media explosion that was 550 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: the ALS ice bucket challenge, was individuals dumping or having 551 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: a bucket of chilling ice water or ice dumped on 552 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: their head. And then they challenge other people. And if 553 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: you're honoring the whole idea of it, you're supposed to 554 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: then go make a donation to the A L S. 555 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: A L S Association, be it instead of taking dumping 556 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: ice on your head or as part of dumping ice 557 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: in your What's interesting about that is that I don't 558 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: think anybody ever intended this, but every single one of 559 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: those videos is a kind of data point in this 560 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: pain pleasure um experiment right of humanity, and which you 561 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: do see people emerge on the other side giddy, giddy, 562 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: and and evidently more likely to donate either if you. 563 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: And that goes for people that are partaking in the 564 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: ritual and presumably those who are who are actually just 565 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, on the other end of the computer watching 566 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: some celebrity dumped dump ice on their head. And key 567 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: to this, perhaps this is this idea that you are 568 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: the participant, you are the hero and this story. So 569 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: storytelling really factors into this. And when we get back, 570 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: we're going to delve into it. All right, we are back. 571 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why I think that ice 572 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: bucket challenge is really so successful is it is storytelling 573 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: at its finest and quickest, and it's this cultural meme 574 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: that has been passed around and it's the thing that 575 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: everybody can gather around and say, yeah, I experience that. 576 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: I didn't experience it with that person in Arkansas, but 577 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: I you know, directly, but we we both had the 578 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: same sort of thing, that ice cold moment and that 579 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: rush of pleasure and experiencing. So, for instance, you might 580 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: never know exactly what it's like to be David Lynch, 581 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: but David Lynch has experienced the ice bucket challenge. David 582 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: Lynch knows what it's like ritually have that the ice 583 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: raised above his head and then dumped upon him. And 584 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: you can experience that too and be a part of 585 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: the same story. David Lynch and Pamela Anderson have something 586 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: in common, is what I'm saying. It's pretty great. It's 587 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: just amazing how much depth there is to something that 588 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: at at at surface level, just seems like people doing 589 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: a silly thing for a good cause. Now, in when 590 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: I was looking this up right before we did the podcast, 591 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: I was just going in to see what the latest 592 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: stats were about how much money was raised for the cause. 593 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: I found some stories about the new ice bucket challenge 594 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: or something that is that is brought up is possibly 595 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: the new ice spukeet challenge, and that is the hashtag 596 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: wake up call that is being uh that's being rolled 597 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: out by UNI Stuff. Raised money for UNI Stuff, so 598 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: again for a good cause. But the idea here is 599 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: that people, especially celebrities, end up sharing pictures of themselves 600 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: when they first wake up in the morning, which on 601 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: the surface here sounds very out of keeping with the 602 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: with everything that makes the ice bucket challenge work right, 603 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: because there's nothing painful about it. I guess the idea 604 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: is that it could be humiliating or or or humanizing. 605 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: Maybe that it's knocking you down a peg, and so 606 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: you're you're suffering at the very shallow end of the 607 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: suffering pool, especially if you're Naomi Campbell and you have 608 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: this picture of yourself just waking up, looks like a magazine, 609 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: your hair just perfectly spread over the pillow, and this 610 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: sort of morning do settled upon your your face. Um, 611 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: it was disgusting. I was like I was, now, I 612 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: feel like there's a morning Naomi Campbell phobia. It was terrible. 613 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: I can't believe she did it. It will it will 614 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: be interesting to watch it and see how this particular hashtag, 615 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: this particular fundraising social media cause. Don't don't look at her. 616 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: She looks like the sea hag in The Little Mermaid, 617 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: the the original. Um, I'm making fun because of course 618 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: she looked like a supermodel waking up, but yeah. I 619 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: mean there's this idea that you know, she might be 620 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: humiliating herself and submitting herself to this collective ritual. And 621 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: the ritual is important, and it is worth against stressing 622 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: that in all these religious rituals and some of the 623 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: secular ones, one is re enacting or engaging in a 624 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: story of pain, and they're they're making the story true 625 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: through pain. I mean, their pain becomes a testament to 626 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: its reality, you know. And thinking about this, I come 627 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: back to two again, that central Christian image of Jesus 628 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: on the cross, and I ran across something interesting recently, 629 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: and I blogged about this on Stuff to Play your 630 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: mind icon So maybe some of you saw it. But 631 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: if you look back to uh, the earlier tradition, the 632 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: early artistic tradition of of of representing Jesus on the cross, 633 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: you see stuff like uh Alberto Petos eight seven, christis triumphants, 634 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: which shows you this, uh uh, this this Christ on 635 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: the cross with this serene kind of doughty look in 636 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: his eyes like this is this does not look like 637 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 1: a man who is suffering. This looks like a man 638 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: who is above pain. This looks like a God that 639 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: is above human suffering. Yeah, I guess, but this was 640 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: actually the predominant style prior to the thirteenth century, after 641 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: which it becomes increasingly proper to depict Christ is not 642 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: only undergoing physical pain, but suffering physical pain like you 643 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: and me. And you see one of the more just 644 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: fantastic examples of this tradition in um the Christ of 645 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: Matthias Gruenwald's Eisenham altarpiece. Uh And in this one, we 646 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: see a God that is not only suffering, but appears 647 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: to be diseased. Uh and and I go into the 648 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 1: details for that in the in the blog post include 649 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: a link on this podcast episode. But you see a 650 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: vision of Christ that is intensely suffering, diseased even uh 651 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: and and But but in all of it is engaging 652 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: in the kind of physical suffering that humans can relate to. 653 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: Because you know, imagine yourself, you're in this uh you know, 654 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: you're you're you're poor, You're in a medieval town. There's 655 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: there's black death knocking on the door, there's there's warfare raging. 656 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: Which which image can you relate to? Which image can 657 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: you connect with and engage in the story, And that, 658 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: of course would be the Christ that is suffering, the 659 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: Christ that actually feels pain like you feel pain. Well, 660 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: and I would uh wagered about that. Every single story 661 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: that's ever been written, there is an element of suffering, 662 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: wasn't it? Because that is you cannot have a story 663 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: without suffering. That is the human experience. Life is suffering. 664 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: And uh and nobody wants to see a movie read 665 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: a book about an individual has all their dreams come true. 666 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: That is not a story. That is just that's just 667 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: a pipe dream. We want to see characters who are challenged, 668 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: characters who suffer, characters. I mean, it's ultimately more about 669 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: what people try to do than what they actually succeed 670 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,439 Speaker 1: in doing. Even yogaba gabba narratives have suffering in them. 671 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: It's true. Somebody gets bit and you're not supposed to 672 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: do that. One who's always sad and is always suffering. 673 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: Occasionally they cheer him up, but then he returns to 674 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: doing this uh epitome of of childhood suffering. And maybe 675 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: Gobol decides to take up ritualistic pain in order to 676 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: try to to uh fill himself with a sense of 677 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: control over his destiny. That's right, I mean, there's this 678 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: this whole idea of of control versus chaos, which reminds 679 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: us of the episode that we did on flow state, 680 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: particularly where, particularly if you're playing a game right, you're 681 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: engaging in some sort of limited version of reality in 682 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: which they're set rules and you can actually take full 683 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: command end of the situation that it's it's challenging enough 684 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: to engage you, but not to challenging, not so much 685 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: that you're frustrated. And so you can see cases where 686 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: UH ritual allows us to partake in this and engage 687 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: in a flow state. Well, and I would see this 688 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: particularly in B D S M right, because in that sense, 689 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: you're creating this sort of pushing your outer limits within 690 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: something that's not going to necessarily break you. Yeah, indeed, 691 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: I mean there are rules, there are limits, and it's 692 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: about maybe edging towards those limits, but not surpassing them. 693 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: That's why it's you know, a a badious in dungeon 694 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: is not an actual, you know, stereotypical medieval dungeon where 695 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: people are tortured. It's a it's a consensual exploration of 696 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: the senses, if you will. Rickshaw a rickshaw like a 697 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: rick shaw cart. That was my safe word. Oh okay, 698 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: I was just that's totally gonna get cut out right, No, 699 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: I mean I kind of made me try to picture 700 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: a rickshaw art environment within a BDS club. Like there's 701 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: so many things that are a thing it would not surprise. 702 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: All Right, let's talk about how this might translate to 703 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: altered states any because this is the motif, right, you 704 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: have someone engaging in sort of ritualistic pain, especially within 705 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: a religious scenario, and they are achieving some sort of 706 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 1: enlightenment to some sort of transcendence or you know, at 707 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: least they're they're they're they're they're bringing themselves to tears 708 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: not out of pain, but out of relief, out of 709 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: out of forgiveness. Eve. Yeah, I mean if you're thinking 710 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: about acts of self flagilation, right and you know, you 711 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: see it, you understand the metaphor behind it, but what 712 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: sort of why would there be a kind of transcendence here? 713 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: And it turns out that, um, what's happening in the 714 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: brain really translates to a meditative experience. Yeah, as as 715 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: far as forgiveness through pain goes, there's a fantastic two 716 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: thousand eleven study. Uh, this was a conducted by psychological 717 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: scientists brought question who just has a fabulous name, I 718 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: want to say uh, from the University of Queensland, Australia, 719 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: and he set out to explore this idea. Why why 720 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: would striking yourself with a lash make you feel better 721 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: about your your transgressions? So Bastion's team regruited young male 722 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: and female test subjects under the guise of a mental 723 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: and physical acuity study. The researchers asked the test subjects 724 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: to write a personal essay about a time in which 725 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: they ostracize someone, and the aim here was to make 726 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: this part of these participants in the study UH feel 727 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: guilty or immoral. Meanwhile, the control group just wrote personal 728 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: essays about you know whatever, some sort of routine memory 729 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: that wasn't going to make them feel guilty. The researchers 730 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: then instructed both immoral volunteers and the controls to hold 731 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: their hands in a bucket of ice water for as 732 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: long as they could stand it. Others dipped their hand 733 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 1: in a soothing bucket of warm water. So the question 734 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: here that the study was posing would immoral test subjects 735 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: punish themselves with longer dips in the water in the 736 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: cold to rather uh? And would they feel better afterwards? 737 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: And the answer is yes on both counts. Those who 738 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: were primed to feel shame again by those personal essays 739 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: of ostracizing others um when they dip their their hands 740 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: in the cold water, they held it for longer durations, 741 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: and afterwards they described the dip as more painful and 742 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: express reduced feelings of guilt afterwards. So Bastion's argument, and 743 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 1: ultimately the argument of the study here, uh, is that 744 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: is that this illustrates our culturally altered understanding of pain. 745 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: We've come to process it not only as negative environmental feedback, 746 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: but also as justice and punishment. So on a psychological level, 747 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of a self inflicted pain rebalances the 748 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,879 Speaker 1: scales that we've managed to unbalance in our lives well. 749 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: And I think that's interesting because that's where someone is 750 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: able to achieve some sort of quiescence, right, some sort 751 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 1: of tranquility, even if it's just fleeting. And we've talked 752 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: about this before or in context of meditation or yoga, 753 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: is that there's this part of the brain called the 754 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: default mode network, and it's the midline chatter that you 755 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: hear in your head that's very involved with me me me, me, 756 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: me me right, And in order to dim the lights 757 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: on that, you've got to engage in something like meditation 758 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: or something that takes you outside of yourself, which is 759 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 1: where something like B D S sound comes into because 760 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: that involves something called the Dorso lateral network, which is 761 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: very closely intertwined with this default mode network. Yeah, the 762 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: this part of the brain is involved in distinguishing self 763 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: from other h and it is also involved in the 764 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: out of body experiences. A two thousand fourteen study from 765 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: Northern Illinois University linked sado masochism to altered states of 766 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: mind UH in keeping with those achieved through yoga or meditation. 767 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: The research has administered cognitive test to S and N 768 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: participant following a switching scene, and based on the findings, 769 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: they suspect that pain alters blood foe in the brain, 770 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: particularly to that Doris lateral prefrontal cortex, which again plays 771 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: this essential role in our ability to distinguish self from others. So, 772 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 1: in other words, intense pain in this control setting may 773 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: result in a feeling of oneness with humanity or even 774 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 1: the universe, which again brings to mind these these hook 775 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: suspension uh ceremonies in which one is is elevated, which 776 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: one that where one is rising up UM, you know, 777 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: with help from the hooks UM I was. I was 778 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: looking around for for feedback from UM suspension participants on this, 779 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: and I found a quote from Alan Faulkner, who's the 780 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: founder of PSD, the first suspension group and often held 781 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: up as the father of modern suspension. He said, if 782 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: life had a dial to adjust the volume, suspension has 783 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: a way of accessing this invisible knob and turning it down. 784 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: We which is which it first makes seem paradoxical, right, 785 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: because you're thinking, what could be a more intense experience 786 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: of life been hanging from a hook? Right? You think, oh, 787 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: these people are just adrenaline junkies. They just want to 788 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: just go in there and add hang from a hook. 789 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,479 Speaker 1: But here's this guy talking about how hanging from these 790 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: hooks suspended above the ground was a way of turning 791 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,359 Speaker 1: everything down, of of of actually making the rest of 792 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: his life sort of fade into the background. Well, this 793 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: calls back to the man and tribe that we were 794 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: talking about that also practiced suspension, and the idea was 795 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,879 Speaker 1: that not only was it just the celebration and this 796 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: UM this sort of ritual and looking at how Earth 797 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:45,439 Speaker 1: was created, um, but it was this way of those 798 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: participants to not only test their metal, but clear their 799 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: minds in order for visions to come to them for 800 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 1: a sort of um, a kind of grace to settle 801 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,799 Speaker 1: upon their brains. So there you have it, the zen 802 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: of pain, or at least our exploration of this idea 803 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: of pain and pleasure mixing together of of pain, uh 804 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: in a controlled environment leading to uh to to some 805 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: level of transcendence. UH. It's a it's a powerful topic. 806 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,800 Speaker 1: And again when you see shadows off throughout human culture, 807 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: throughout religious traditions and secular traditions as well. And again 808 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: we want to underline, UH, don't go out and hurt 809 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: yourself because you listen to this podcast. UM, you know 810 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: we're not advocating uh self harm in any way, shape 811 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: or form. But again, it's something we just see throughout 812 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,799 Speaker 1: human culture. Yeah, this is not a celebration of pain. 813 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: This is just an exploration of the tropes that we 814 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: continue to see in society. And it's a fascinating topic. 815 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: And UH, we certainly do not want to scoot anything 816 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: like say, chronic pain or self inflicted pain to the 817 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,760 Speaker 1: side here. Those are very important topics. And they deserve 818 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: uh their own time. But again, this is just looking 819 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,880 Speaker 1: at at pain in a different way. Indeed, and if 820 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: you want to listen to a discussion that goes more 821 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: into the subject of chronic pain, do check out our 822 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 1: past episode at the Future of Pain. You'll find that 823 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,480 Speaker 1: in other past episodes of the podcast at stuff to 824 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,439 Speaker 1: blow your Mind dot com it's the mothers Stiffest where 825 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: you'll find all of our podcast episodes are videos glog 826 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,920 Speaker 1: post as well. And if you have any thoughts on this, 827 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: if you have other examples that we missed of this 828 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: sort of like ritual pain that that we sometimes submit 829 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: ourselves to, please send us your thoughts via email and 830 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: you can send them to blow the Mind how stuff 831 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 832 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com