WEBVTT - Cartocacoethes: Map Mania! 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:13.800 Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.760 My name is Robert Lamb and mine is Julie Douglas. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.400 Julie tell me this. Uh, you in your husband using 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.239 an iPhone? Do you not to traverse the world around 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.159 you? You You depend on its maps? Affirmative? Mr Lamb, We 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.920 do so you like like like My household were probably 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:33.240 somewhat distraught when the maps changed all of a sudden. 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.479 We're recording this early October two thousand twelve, just a 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:41.400 week or two ago. Everyone updated their iOS and suddenly 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.640 Google Maps were no more on the phone. It was 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.839 Apple Maps instead, and there were some There was some 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:54.560 some ensuing confusion. Bridges melting melting bridges. Uh. The system 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:56.560 that we were used to was no longer in play, 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.240 and suddenly we were unable to simply drive a mile 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.680 from our house to to a location that we've been 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.200 to before. Nobody showed up at work. They didn't know 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.160 how to get here anymore because the maps weren't working. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.039 I think that all this points to the fact that 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.000 maps are totally underrated and people don't realize how important 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.720 they are and actually how difficult it is to get 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.319 a good system in place. And I mean, speaking of systems, 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.200 remember what it was like before all this. I mean 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.640 by the time I was actively driving two places I've 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.640 never been to before, I think I had what was 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.640 the map Quest at my disposal, which even map Quest 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.040 was really confusing. Yeah, you had your print out of 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.640 map Quest and then the Sun's direction and you're on 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.080 your own. Yeah, and and and I and I'd still 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.839 get lost. And then we eventually had you know, Google 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.440 Maps with an improvement as far as I'm consappie, as 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.320 far as most people were concerned. And then then came 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.960 the more affordable GPS devices and we were able to 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.400 navigate more without thinking about it. Well and uh, we 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.040 have seen actually instances where people absolutely did not even 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.640 think about it. And um, this was made fun of 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.760 in the TV episode The Office, But Michael Scott, Yeah, 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.280 he drives into the lake because it's not on the map. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.400 On the map, the GPS says that you know, the 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.160 road keeps going, and it's a joke, but I think 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.560 this has actually happened to some people. It was amazing 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.040 when I when I was looking at into our history 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.239 with maps and and sort of comparing our modern understanding 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.720 of maps and use of these highly technological maps, and 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.640 comparing that two models of the past. I found these 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:34.520 photo auto guides from around nineteen o five really interesting. Basically, 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:36.000 if if I was to go back in time to 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.320 nineteen o five and then I had access to a 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:40.480 car and we're touring the country, and I was touring 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:42.800 the country and I was like, WHOA, my GPS doesn't work. 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:44.680 I brought it back. I bothered to bring it back 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.400 with me, but it has no satellites to playoff off, 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.280 so it's just setting there without a signal. What should 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.880 I do? What? What would it be like then? If 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:57.519 I were to try and replicate the GPS driving experience 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:02.040 using early twentieth century technology, or not even technology, but 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.800 just printing abilities and photography abilities, you would end up 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.880 with the photo auto guide, which was basically a detailed 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.800 set of directions for it to drive from one place 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:18.600 to another that would include photographs of intersections, detailed instructions 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.360 about how to navigate in order by turn. Yeah, so 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.160 kind of a combo an early version of both the 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:31.359 map quest print out of directions and a detailed GPS 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.080 p o V of where you are and where you're going, 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.880 but also travel guide of sorts do right because they're 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.800 talking about landmarks and about the different things that you 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.640 will encounter on the way. So as humans, we need maps, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.000 and that's basically what we're talking about in this this 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.680 episode of stuff to blow your mind about our relationship 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.520 with maps from its early goings and on into the 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:54.240 future and just how tired we are to them. We 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.320 may not think about them all the time, you know, 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:58.640 you may not think about the map until you're having 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.920 to navigate somewhere you haven't been to before, or you 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.640 don't really remember the instructions are you're having to share 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.560 these instructions, these directions with someone else. But the map 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:09.720 is always there in the mind like it's it's really 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:12.360 part of our neural architecture at at a very deep 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:14.760 and important level. But at one point you could argue 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.720 that it wasn't there right because we didn't have even 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.120 though you know, humans have been nomadic for some time, uh, 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.400 we didn't necessarily have a sense of place beyond the 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.480 say of like I don't know two mile radius that 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:32.520 you might forage in. So there's some arguments about whether 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.040 or not there have been true maps made at those 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.839 times and or whether or not those were just sort 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.960 of moral like you know, turn right at the boulder, um, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.920 and when we started to make maps in earnest as humans. Yeah, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.039 now's this interesting. You said place. It's really important to 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.800 think about place, and certainly the difference between place and 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.800 space is reading in this book To Take Place Toward 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.520 Theory and Ritual by Jonathan Z. Smith, which is one 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.840 of my old college religious studies books, but like really 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.680 deep stuff about like the origins of ritual. But there's 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:07.440 a part where they talk about the use of maps 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:12.560 and he he quotes UM geographer Yi Futuin who says, 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:17.400 this space is more abstract than place. What begins as 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.400 undifferentiated space becomes place as we get to know it 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.560 better and endow it with value. If we think of 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.040 space as that which allows movement, then place is pause. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.039 Each pause in movement makes it possible for location to 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.120 be transformed into place. So this is sense of in 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.760 a sense, it's like bringing order out of chaos. You're 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.479 bringing place out of space. Well, I like this idea 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:44.760 of movement too, because I think of that in those 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.880 terms of like spaces being a frontier something you're going 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:53.240 to explore and Emmanuel can't. Also, he argued that geography 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.799 was the study of knowledge in a location, while history 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.640 is the study of knowledge and time. Okay, So it 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.159 comes down to, you know, it's it's core to our 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:06.920 perception of reality in the world around us. This this 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:11.159 map of where we are in space, of this place 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.640 that we inhabit that is full of things that have 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.960 value and meaning. Well, and that's what I think is 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.039 so intriguing about maps is that it tries to do 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.560 double duty. It tries to take space, place, and time 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:25.120 and combine it all on on one surface, right right, 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.560 one sort of understanding. Um, it is thought that the 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.880 oldest known maps are preserved. Um, well, not that they're preserved, 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.120 but that they actually go back to and then they 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.800 are preserved on Babylonian clay tablets from that time and 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.880 an ancient Greece, where photography was considerably advanced. The concept 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.560 of a spherical earth was well known among Greek philosophers 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.520 by the time of Aristotle. So we're talking about three 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.240 and fifty BC. So this idea that you're going to 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.800 map that space has been around and we know that 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.880 humans have tried to Harn said, Um, it's certainly one 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.880 of those things that if someone says that what was 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.880 the first map, there's no way of knowing, because that's 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:10.040 something that really vanishes into the murk of history. It's 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.040 probably some you know, some dude with a stick and 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:13.880 the dust or something. You know, it's it's not something 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.360 that's going to survive. And then even if it is 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:18.200 on paper, that it's not going to survive. And then 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.000 a lot of the things we end up keeping are 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.840 that we may think, we may interpret them as maps, 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.840 it's not necessarily the case. In our previous podcast, we 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.040 talked about allegorical maps, maps of things that are not real, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.280 and you really get into a weird area with old 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.200 maps where you have to judge, all right, to what 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.840 extent is this a map of anything in physical reality? 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.640 To what extent is this, say, a map of this 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.240 more cosmological in its sense, doesn't have to do with 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.800 religious matters, is it is it have to do it 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.600 with ritual or is it just merely some sort of 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.520 illustrative art. Well, into what extent is it our brains 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.920 interpreting something that isn't a map, but looking at patterns, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.280 And we'll talk about is it depictogram, is a religious artifact. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.800 Is it just a landscape? Yeah, and describing our own 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.160 meaning to it. I did want to point out that 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:13.080 Greek and Roman cartography reached a culmination um with Claudius Ptolemius, 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.400 and this was an a d around and his world 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.679 map depicted the old world from about sixty degrees north 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:25.040 to thirty degrees latitude uh south, and his writing was 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:28.440 called Guide to Geography, and it was really the authoritative 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:33.080 reference uh to maps in world geography until the Renaissance. 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.320 So that's quite a bit of chunk of time there. Um. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.520 And then of course you can also fast forward to 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:43.400 about eleven fifty four when an Arab geographer named Muhammad 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.800 all the Reci produced his atlas and that actually was 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.679 used quite a bit as well. Um. He incorporated the 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.800 knowledge of Africa, Indian Ocean in the Far East gathered 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.160 by Arab merchants. And this is something that we're going 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.160 to see repeating over and over in history and matt making. 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.679 Is this idea that maps really came about as a 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.360 sort of crowdsourcing. Everybody else's knowledge dumped into this one 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.400 document to say, okay, this is what my experience was 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:12.600 in this landscape, and you had to trust that you 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.560 had people who actually were capable of of contributing to 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.000 the dialogue and weren't just gonna be like what he said. 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.520 I don't I'm just gonna go along with what this 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.120 previous person said, because then you end up keeping not 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:30.240 only uh, this previous cartographer's successes, but also his inaccuracies. 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.960 And we do see huge inaccuracies with maps even today. Um. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:37.880 But when you think about these trade routes um, you know, 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:42.280 either by by foot or by horse or camel um, 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.560 then you get to you know, well established points of 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.800 reference and you can begin to make a mental mapping 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.319 of the landscape. But this is one of those outrageous 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.400 overstatements of the obvious, which is sometimes necessary in dealing 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.000 with mind building content, because you have to actually step 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.560 back and think about something that you already knew. And 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.080 that is that until very recently, we were not able 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.280 to look down at the earth from above and see 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.440 that is the shape of that island, that is the 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.960 shape of that peninsula, that is the manner in which 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.640 that river cuts across the continent. This is all that 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.679 is all really new technology, really new information to have, 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.720 and prior to that, you had to to to deal 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:27.040 with it all based on observation, mathematics and slowly pieced 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.920 together this top side vision of the world. It was 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.240 not possible. Yeah, it's true. Seventeen and eighteenth centuries really 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.160 ushered in mathematics and technology. Clockmaking made it possible for 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.160 travelers to determine their or longitude accurately, made it much 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.400 more easier to make more accurate maps. Uh for instance, 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.600 using degrees, minutes, and seconds. Meridians measure how far east 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.520 or west a location is from the prime meridian, and 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.120 parallels measure how far north or south of location is 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.320 from the equator. So if you didn't have all this 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.240 information mapped out in the first place, it would be 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.200 very difficult to even try to figure out that journey, 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.160 let along how long it would take. But thankfully we 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.440 had that sort of technology coming online in the form 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:12.440 of magnetic compasses, telescopes in six tons, which are these 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.920 instruments that really measure the angle between two visible objects. 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.480 So but as you say, it wasn't really until we 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:26.840 could get above and confirmed. Yeah, and actually Joan Jehan 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.760 Glenn said that when he first went up and he 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.520 saw he was, you know, going he was traveling away 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.480 from Earth and he looked down and he saw the 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.319 state of Florida. He was really impressed because he thought, wow, 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.000 our our map making is pretty accurate, because that is 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.000 a really great representation of Florida. We're not so far off. 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.600 So yeah, we're talking about the ability to obtain aerial photography, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.120 which of course one has to have the technology to 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.959 at least send up a balloon um or or climb 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.040 something very high, I guess, in a very simple, limited, 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.559 not really aerial form of photography, and of course you 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:03.240 need took graph It helps, it helps a lot. And 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.520 we actually had the technology of aerial photography back in 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:08.960 eighty eight, but it's kind of hard to believe that 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.760 it wasn't until after World War One that we began 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.560 to really use it. In earnest Um, it was used 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.600 in reconnaissance missions. Yeah, so prior to that, we there 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.240 was a huge chunks of the world that were really 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.120 uncharted because we didn't have the aerial photography. And then 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.720 of course you had satellites come online, and in the 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.160 beginning of the US military, satellites were equipped with hi 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.959 rese cameras for the purpose of aerial photography. But they 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.160 had no way to develop the film or transmit the images. 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.520 And we take that so for granted right now, right 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:46.320 you think about you know, Mars curiosity beaming back these images. Um. 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.239 But what they would do is that these early satellites 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.079 would drop film packets into the atmosphere and these were 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.360 outfitted with parachutes. Just kind of cute to think about, um, 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.920 and then they were retrieved mid air by military mill 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:05.360 terry transport planes. Yeah. So there, yeah, I mean, yeah, alright, 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.199 we're gonna take a quick little break here, and when 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.920 we come back, we're going to deal with a really 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:13.200 ancient possibly a map, maybe not a map, you'll find 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.640 out when we discuss it. And also are unstoppable need 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.200 to see maps in the world around us? And there's 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:27.520 actual term for this cartok kofies. All right, we're back, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.120 and before we get really hardcore back into maps, let's 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.120 talk a little bit about apophenia. Okay, we've talked about 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.640 this before. It is the spontaneous perception of connections and 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:42.040 meaningfulness of unrelated phenomena. Yeah. Yeah, the coin was too 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.160 the coin. The term was coined by k. Conrad in 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:50.800 nine and neurologist Peter Bruger studied apophenia and patients who 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:54.320 had psychotic episodes, and he noticed that they were they 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.280 were finding meaning and random aspects of their lives. And 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.200 his research actually indicates that high levels of dopamine effect 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.840 propensity to find meaning. In other words, when you find 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:08.319 a pattern, you get a little ding ding from dopamine, 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.720 your reward system of your brain lights up a bit. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.400 So it would make sense that first that the human 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:17.840 brain is hardwired to try to find pattern just really 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.640 important in trying to survive, and too, that it would 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.880 get rewarded for that. Yeah, So if you have enough 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.200 dopamine in your system, if you listen to that Led 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.480 Zeppelin song and you finally figure out what he was 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.240 talking about, man, that kind of thing. I mean, it's 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.360 it's essentially a type one error in which we are 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.240 you're seeing patterns that aren't necessarily there. It's part of 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.200 everything from our ability to see a smiley face where 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.040 there isn't one to see, you know, because we can 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:46.040 look at anything but even the vaguest human face pattern 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.720 in it and we we sort of personify it. And 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:50.720 so there's a little bit of it going on there, 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.040 but been in it's more extreme cases, it's it plays 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:58.320 into conspiracy theories, it plays into religious experience, paranormal experience. 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:01.440 It's just drawing all these connections that aren't there where 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.880 Suddenly you realize that whoa, this uh, this thing that 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.120 happened with my car is something wrong with the engine 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.800 and it's totally because of the government, and they're probably 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.840 watching me through my TV. Meanwhile, you fellow dopamine release 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.520 for making that connection. Right, So it's not surprising that 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.120 there would be a little something called cartok cothies, which 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:25.560 is this uncontrollable urge to see maps where there aren't none. Yeah, 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.240 which is which is pretty pretty pretty phenomenal. I mean, 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.320 at one level we mentioned that, and I imagined a 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.680 lot of you are thinking, wow, well, when when would 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.600 one have the opportunity to make that mistake? Because you know, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.640 I'm thinking about just my daily life. How many times 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.760 do I encounter something that's not a map that I 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.720 could interpret as a map, Like maybe if I found 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.760 like a scrap of paper and I was wondering if 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.560 it was a treasure map. You know, I just I 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.160 don't see this being a big deal for the average person. No, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:55.680 And I don't think it is. I think it's for 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.680 people who are map minded and intend to gravitate towards 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:04.320 Matt and particularly archaeologist and anthropologists were looking back in 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:08.360 human history finding these relics, and in many cases it 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.320 may just be some scratches on a on a wall 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.560 on ancient cave site, and then trying to figure out 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.880 what what was this ancient person whose mind I can 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:19.240 barely comprehend, if at all comprehend what were they thinking 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.840 when they did this? Well, and it seems benign until 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.560 you start to consider that if you, if you tend 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.120 to see maps where there are not, then if someone 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.000 is an archaeologist and they're looking at something, they could 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.640 perhaps uh perceive something that is not there and in 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.440 doing so, really warp our understanding of that culture, of 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.600 that period of time and history. Um and I am 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.640 thinking about something called the Caltahyak Map. It was first 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.400 brought to our attention in a nineteen article entitled Excavations 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:57.240 at Katahayak. And this is by James Mollart, who at 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.680 the time recognized it as a city plan. Yes, now, 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.600 the original scratch, the original scratches, the original markings do 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:06.840 kind of look like scratches on a wall, not not 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.480 to discredit the work of an ancient people, but it 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.000 hadn't really survived all that well, it's it's it's kind 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.720 of abstract. But the popularized version of this though, is 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.240 a sketch that he did of it. It's the sketch 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.240 that's the problems because the sketch really plays into his 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.679 interpretation of it. So you see in his sketch what 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.680 really looks like a laid out city like grid work 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.480 of the of the city and then above it interrupting 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:36.480 volcano right and um now he is saying that this, uh, 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:40.320 this sort of neolithic map dates back to six BC 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.639 and that it would have been one of the first maps. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.399 Now that's really important because all of a sudden you 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.280 have pinned in time when man started to really make maps. 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.919 Um or you know, the surrounding areas are certainly just 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:54.919 you know, you have one of the earliest examples of it. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.280 And that's that's amazing because we can actually put a date. 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.439 You're right, that's more accurate that you can actually just 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.560 put a date to it rather than trying to figure 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.639 out when we started to make maps. And then you know, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:08.880 you start to think, okay, well that's older than any 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.919 writing system, you know, four thousand years ago and older 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:18.480 than the oldest known alphabetical writing system. And this really 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.439 begins to shape this story about humans. Um, the problem is, 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.119 as you say, is that this was a picture that 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.200 he made of a cave painting, and so it's it's 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.800 just full of I guess you could say, his impression 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:34.840 of what he thought it was. Yeah, And like like 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:36.760 I said earlier too, even if you're dealing with an 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.560 actual map, uh from an ancient culture, you have to 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.639 really navigate that gray area of to what extent is 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:47.480 this just a person trying to figure out what their 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.359 places in the surrounding space and what to what point 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.720 is this a cosmological or religious work, To what extent 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.280 is it are they just seeing things in the world 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.280 around them and making pictures of them. You get into 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.600 that gray area of what a map is to an 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.440 ancient people, well certainly to a non language people, even 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:10.080 even more difficult to the fathom. Well, archaeologist Stephanie Mice 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.120 is the person who actually illuminated this problem because she said, 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.800 first of all, it's been taking out of context. Let's 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.040 go and look at this cave painting in the context 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.679 with other cave paintings and see what we find and 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.879 lo and behold. When she examined it, she said, m okay, 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.040 Now in the context, I can see that this volcano 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.440 it's spotted like a leopard skin, and if you look 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.840 at it, it's not really a volcano. It's kind of 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.920 two peaks. One peak is larger than the other. Now 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.320 I'm going to compare it against this other cave painting 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:43.520 in which they have stretched out tiger skins or excuse me, 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.000 leopard skins, and you begin to see that this volcano. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:48.960 It's really funny. When you first look at it, you 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.240 do see a volcano, but when you see her explanation, 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:56.640 you see that it is a stretched out it's totally yeah, 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.639 it's not a volcano. And these other little scratches aren't, 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.399 you know, necessarily the houses in that town or the huts. 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.320 It reminds me of the episode of Rest of Development, 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.000 where there's a cell phone picture that they think is 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.399 showing w M D S. But Tobias just took a 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:16.520 picture of himself by accident in the bathtub. You know. Well, 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:21.400 it's like Ken Jennings and map Head looks at Krishev's 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.840 forehead and sees a country I think it's Thailand or something. 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.240 Because he can't help it, and he's drawn the connections 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.600 to in that book between the shapes of various states 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.240 and the shapes of other countries. I mean, yeah, you 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.080 can't help but think those connections in your mind. All right, 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.320 So sent for doing some time traveling. Let's go forward 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.600 into the way way future, which is now um and 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.080 think about what maps mean to us today, particularly with 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.000 sort of technology that we have. Are you know, recapable 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.240 of making a similar mistake and misinterpreting information and layering 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.600 information that we have now? Well, if a future society 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.199 or alien culture comes back and looks at our maps now, 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:01.520 they're probably either going to be a little confused by 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.480 all the maps that we have of things that are 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.480 not actually real, which we discussed in our previous podcasts, 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.080 are gonna be like whoa, they have all these maps 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.000 of Hell, like tons of them. And and then there 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.199 are all these these other planets. I guess there's some 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.480 place called Middle Earth. It doesn't match up with anything 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:21.320 on the planet. There's the Hobbits. We don't see anything 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:25.639 in the record. So again, on one level, there's the 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:30.760 just the complexity of of our map obsession that we 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:32.480 have maps of things that aren't real. We have maps 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.919 that that deserve a purpose other than navigating the physical world. 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.080 But then our modern day maps are rather unique in 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:41.920 that they certainly something on your anything you're gonna have 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.120 in your smartphone, you're dealing with a real time map. 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.080 You're dealing in the map that not only charts the 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.800 streets in your world, but also the traffic on those streets, 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.080 how they're affected by weather, how they're affected by public 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.520