1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Hong Kong's pro democracy protests have raged on for several 2 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: months now, and with tensions flaring, China's cracking down on 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: anything and anyone seemed to promote the movement. That's gotten 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: several American companies in trouble, both at home and abroad. 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: There's new fall out of this evening in the NBA's 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: firestorm with China. The NBA tonight fighting back after being 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: blasted for caving to China's communist government. Why did Act 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: Division Blizzards suspend this guy? I guess it was to, 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: you know, to butter up to China. Wasn't But few 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: US companies depend on China's fourteen trillion dollar economy like Apple, 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: and the company has made a series of moves that 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: critics say bowed to the country's totalitarian government, including removing 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: an app for Hong Kong's residents that displayed the movement 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: of local police. Today. In the show, Bloomberg editor Alistair 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: bar breaks down Apple's dilemm Can the company keep selling 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: in China without losing its soul? A, Ma, you're listening 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: to Decrypted? Stay with us? Elly? How's it going? Hi? 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: I'm good? Do you want to introduce yourself. Yeah, I'm 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: Alistair bar I'm an editor on the Tech team in 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: the US. I want to start a conversation today at 21 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: the very beginning, maybe about a decade ago, when Apple 22 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: first started selling the iPhone, and it started selling the 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: iPhone in China, tell us about the relationship that Apple's 24 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: had with the country. It's been unprecedented, i would say 25 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: for a US company. So iPhones are super super popular 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: in China, and they became super super popular relatively quickly, 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: but especially around two thousand four fifteen timeframe, when Apple 28 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: made a bigger iPhone and it came out in gold, 29 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: and it was it was a status symbol, and it 30 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: was happening just a time when China was was really 31 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: becoming a lot wealthier and people were emerging out of poverty, 32 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: and there was a massive, huge middle class, and it 33 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: was a super cool status symbol to have an iPhone. 34 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: It was way ahead of most other phones in the world. 35 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: So China really really embraced it, and they sold hundreds 36 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: and hundreds of millions of these these phones. Okay, so 37 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: that was fine for the first few years. China didn't 38 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: seem to have a problem with Apple, but the company 39 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: has gotten into Daisy Year situations over the last few years. 40 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: So selling a fancy gold iPhone in China wasn't particularly controversial. 41 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: But now Apple is a services company, so they have 42 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: a new Apple News Plus service, for instance, that's not 43 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: available in China at the moment. They have the iTunes store, 44 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: they have the Eye bookstore, the bookstore, and those things 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: have either never been in China or they were blocked 46 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: pretty soon after they launched. So Apple, instead of just 47 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: making gadgets, is now providing information over the internet, just 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: like Google or Facebook has done in a slightly different way, 49 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: but it's still in the eyes of China, that's still 50 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: something that is a threat for sure. And that gets 51 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: us to the recent controversy over an app called hk app. Yes, 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: this is a basic mapping app that shows Hong Kong 53 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: on your phone and it shows users where large amounts 54 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: of police are so that they can avoid trouble. That's 55 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: according to the developer, So tell us what happened. So 56 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: originally this is in late September. H k map is 57 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: submitted to Apple's App store, and this is a typical process. 58 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: Developers wait for Apple to decide whether to let it 59 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: in the store. It's a super big deal if they 60 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: get let in the store. So initially it was rejected 61 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: because of technical issues like like how it access payments 62 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: and some other things. The developer then redid the app, 63 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: re submitted it again, and this was in early October, 64 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: and Apple then objected it for helping users evade law enforcement. 65 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: We wrote that story up for sure, because that that 66 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: had very very large political overturns and a lot of 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: people are complaining about it on Twitter, and then we 68 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: were on Apple to find out why and whether they 69 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: were going to change their mind. Basically, Apple then went 70 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: back on that and approved the app and led it 71 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: into the App Store. And then soon after that, the 72 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: People's Daily, which is the communist government newspaper they is 73 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: shoed a an opinion piece which was really highly critical 74 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: of Apple, and they they it was quite ominous and 75 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: they said, it's, you know, we we were not sure 76 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: what Apple's intentions are here. They may they may be 77 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: helping people break the law, and so that in China, 78 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: that that type of signal is basically the Chinese government 79 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: coming down in you really hard. So very very soon 80 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: after that, Apple Paul pulled the app again and so 81 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: that that confluence of events really kind of proves that 82 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: Apple basically did that just because the Chinese government wanted 83 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: it gone. You know, I'm taking a look at the 84 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: screenshot of HK Map and it it kind of looks 85 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: like Ways, the traffic app that we use here in 86 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: the States. Um, can you tell me a little bit 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: more about that. Yeah, So the developer actually made that 88 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: comparison on Twitter, and and our Apple reporter Mark German 89 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: interviewed the developer as well, and his his point is that, 90 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: you know, Ways is a mapping app and it can 91 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: be used for many many different purposes. You can use 92 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: it to avoid police speed cameras, which in a way 93 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: is avoiding law enforcement too, but that the Apple still 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: allows that into the app store, So that that was 95 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: a major question, well was Apple's reasoning. So Tim Cook 96 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: actually sent an email to Apple's staff about it, and yeah, 97 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: his reasons we're pretty concerning. Really where where basically Apple 98 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: took the side of the Hong Kong authorities and they 99 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: were saying that the they had credible evidence from the 100 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: Hong Kong authorities that the app was being used, um 101 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: for malicious purposes to target Hong Kong police, and really 102 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: that that went down very very poorly because they really 103 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: didn't provide any evidence for that. Um. He also said 104 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: that the app was being used to break laws, but 105 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: they didn't really say what laws were being broken. And 106 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: no one, no one that I've read, has actually managed 107 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: to find a law that has been broken. Michaels of that, 108 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: We'll be right back saally before the break. You walked 109 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: us through this debacle surrounding the app h k app. 110 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: But it hasn't been the only way that Apple seems 111 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:50,679 Speaker 1: to be appeasing the Chinese government censors recently, so late lately, 112 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: Apple pulled the Taiwanese flag emoji from the latest version 113 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: of the iPhone software that came out. Basically, if you 114 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: were in Hong Kong or Macau, it's very hard for 115 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: you to send a Taiwanese flag EMODI to someone else 116 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: in mainland China. That was already the case that you 117 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: could you couldn't send it um, so that that caused 118 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: some people concerned, probably not as big as the Hong 119 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: Kong map issue, but another another good example. And then 120 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: back in two thousand seventeen, a really really big one 121 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: was the Apple removed VPN apps from the app store 122 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: all of them, and there were lots and lots of 123 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: those apps, and that was a really very common way 124 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: for people in China to get around the Great firewalls. 125 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: So if you wanted to check what was on Twitter, 126 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: you fired up one of these VPN apps and it 127 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: spoofed your location and it gave you access to Twitter 128 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: and even Facebook to some degree. So China really really 129 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: cracked down on that and Apple basically got rid of 130 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: them all from the app store. That was that was 131 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: a real major one. And then the one that I 132 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: think is super super interesting. We didn't report it unfortunately, 133 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: that BuzzFeed did and over the weekend. So Apple has 134 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: a new TV streaming service that's a bit like Netflix. 135 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: I've seen the commercials for it. Yeah, it's all over 136 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: the place. Yeah, so they're really pushing that hard. About 137 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: a year or so ago, when Apple was wooing the 138 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: creators and of these TV shows that they're going to 139 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: stream online, they basically asked some of these creators not 140 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: to portray China in a in a poor light. And 141 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: Eddie Q, who's kind of the number three guy Apple, 142 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: was the one delivering that message. So that one especially 143 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: is particularly disconcerting. I think It happens kind of a 144 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: lot in Hollywood, where China provides a lot of financing 145 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: to movie studios, so they have to be super careful. 146 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: But Apple likes to think of itself as being different. 147 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: It stands up for ideals and freedom of speech and 148 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: privacy and things like that. And you know, in China 149 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: right now, this this this episode shows that it is 150 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: probably not happening. And of course this isn't just about 151 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: the tech companies, and it's also not just about Apple. 152 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: It's also about the NBA. The NBA example is super, 153 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: super interesting. So the general managers the Houston Rockets tweeted 154 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: support for the Hong Kong protesters, and there was a 155 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: swift response from the Chinese government after that. The Chinese 156 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: National TV broadcaster basically halted broadcasting any of the NBA games. 157 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: And the market there is huge for the NBA, about 158 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: half a billion viewers, and that's a lot of merchandizing, 159 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: that's a lot a lot of advertising, and you know, 160 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: all that stopped very very quickly after that tweet. I 161 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: guess these Western companies that want to sell to China 162 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: do have to play this very delicate dance that gets 163 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: them into these controversies increasingly more so probably, I guess 164 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: one argument is to say, and certainly this is what 165 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,599 Speaker 1: free speech activists would say, it's just not worth it 166 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: to sell your soul to China. But if iPhones were 167 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: to get banned from China, that would be catastrophic for 168 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: Apple's business. Yeah, it would be huge. The revenue that 169 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: Apple gets from Greater China, which is China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, 170 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: is over fifty billion dollars a year, and that the 171 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: market there is super super valuable. But it's also very fickle. 172 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: So when when the Chinese government is unhappy with Apple, 173 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: bad things happen, probably indirectly. A really good example of 174 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 1: that is with Huawei, which is China's national champion when 175 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: it comes to tech companies. And so the US really 176 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: cracked down on Huawei roughly about a year ago, something 177 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: about a year ago. Soon after that, in the in 178 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: the next quarter, Apple's iPhone sales in China they didn't 179 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: do very well, and Huawei's sales rose quite a bit. 180 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: And and so nothing over was ever said by the 181 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: Chinese government and anything like that. But the theory is 182 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: that basically, either there was a national outpouring of support 183 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: for for Huawei, or the Chinese government was sending a 184 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: subtle message to everyone, do not buy iPhones by Huawei phones. 185 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: So there's a real there's a real impact if Apple 186 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: has to keep the Chinese government happy, because that was 187 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: a little taste of what could happen if things continue 188 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: to go bad, right, I wonder if Apple has a 189 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: little more leverage then it thinks though, because it's such 190 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: a big employer in China. Yeah, that's that is a 191 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: really really good point. Almost all iPhones were assembled in China. 192 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: At least a million people are hired to do that, 193 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: and so if Apple suddenly couldn't sell hundreds of millions 194 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: of phones in China, then then some of those people 195 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: would lose their job or because of the trade war 196 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: and and tariffs and things like that, if Apple decided, oh, 197 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: why we're gonna make We're going to make all iPhones 198 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: in Vietnam and India, that would be really devastating to 199 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: the Chinese economy. And then then in the Chinese government 200 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: would not want that to happen at all. So there 201 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: is certainly a two way street going there. So if 202 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: Facebook and Google and all these other Internet giants that 203 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: have been trying and failing to get into China. What 204 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: do you think their executives are thinking now as they're 205 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: watching this unfold? Maybe relief. So even just a year 206 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: ago they were desperate to get into China, now it 207 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: looks like it would be a huge headache for Google 208 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: and Facebook if they were in China and they would 209 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: be there making the same terribly difficult decisions that Apple 210 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: is making right now, and especially for someone like Google 211 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: with the famous motto do know evil? You know, if 212 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: they were in China right now and they were they 213 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: were serving sensored search results in an environment like this, 214 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: that would be extremely hard to support. And I think 215 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: they would get a big backlash from customers but also 216 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: from from their employees very much. So, if you believe 217 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: in the ideal of freedom of information, do you think 218 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: it's even possible for American companies to act ethically in 219 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: China today? I think that's very, very different. Called So 220 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: when I think about Apple in China today, I go 221 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 1: back to the famous four ad that around you in 222 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: the Super Bowl for Apple Macintos computers, and back then, 223 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: the ad showed totalitarian dictator on a big screen saying 224 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: nasty things and everyone's standing there straight, I'm looking scared. 225 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: We are wanted resolved. And then a woman appears and 226 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: smashes the screen. And the whole message was that Apple 227 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: was going to fight totalitarian um and you'll see why 228 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: four will be like four. And now fast forward many 229 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: many years later, Apple is in China, is having to 230 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: deal with this government and and really it can be 231 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: seen to be being forced to enable a form of totalitarians. 232 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: Alista Bart, thanks for coming on the show today, my pleasure, 233 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. This episode of Decrypted was 234 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: produced by me Ao, Sean Wyne and Too for Foreheads. 235 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: Our story editor is in vander May. Francesco Leavie is 236 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you next week.