Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making
Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova and.
Speaker 2: I'm Nate Silver. We can't escape poker, Maria, No, we can't.
Speaker 2: We're going to be speaking with very privileged to speak
Speaker 2: with one of the nine final tableists, Leo Margit's terrific player.
Speaker 2: You'll see, she's a great personality and talks in a
Speaker 2: great deal of candor about what this very human experience
Speaker 2: is like. Also, I believe the first woman in thirty years.
Speaker 2: Is that correct to reach the final table?
Speaker 1: That is absolutely correct. So yeah, we'll be giving you
Speaker 1: a little recap of our own world series, which was
Speaker 1: not nearly as successful as Leo's, and then we'll let
Speaker 1: Leo wow you with her deep run. And we're also
Speaker 1: going to have some interview content from my poker mentor
Speaker 1: Eric sidell Nay. This is going to be a poker
Speaker 1: centric pokeerrific Risky Business.
Speaker 2: It is kind of the origin of our relationship. Definitely
Speaker 2: probably a little overdetermined, right and kind of the show.
Speaker 2: So you get some poker on the show sometimes. But
Speaker 2: I think, as we'll hear in this interview, here's a
Speaker 2: little trade secret. Sometimes you record the interview before the
Speaker 2: top of the show, so we know what happened, but
Speaker 2: it is about decision making under pressure and the very
Speaker 2: human side of decision making under pressure. Leo is not
Speaker 2: some gto bot, right, and almost nobody is. When you
Speaker 2: make the day eight, day nine, how many days they have, ten, eleven,
Speaker 2: the event right, the final table, when you're playing for
Speaker 2: far more money than you ever have before for ninety
Speaker 2: nine point nine percent of the populations. So I think
Speaker 2: a very honest and kind of look at what it
Speaker 2: was like through her eyes.
Speaker 1: Absolutely before we get to layot night. We are both
Speaker 1: now back in New York City. The World Series is
Speaker 1: behind us. I ended in the red. Unfortunately, did you
Speaker 1: end in the black or in the red? Did you
Speaker 1: make money or dead?
Speaker 3: Ever?
Speaker 2: Money black can hold them. But then all these stupid
Speaker 2: fucking mix games, right anyway, that's another.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 2: It was a decent world I had a lot of
Speaker 2: cashes at a pretty deep ran the main event, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I've run these numbers and like for a single World series,
Speaker 2: you're going to end in the red seventy five percent
Speaker 2: of the time because it's concentrated in the one time
Speaker 2: when you do make five hundred K by getting third
Speaker 2: place in the monster stack or something which happens once
Speaker 2: every infanity million years. Right, so you have to, like,
Speaker 2: you have to take events where you're get pretty good
Speaker 2: results are in the mix a lot as being relatively
Speaker 2: tolerable at least.
Speaker 1: Yep for sure. For sure. Now, even though I'm in
Speaker 1: the red, I'm pretty happy with how the summer went.
Speaker 1: It is, you know, much better than last summer, where
Speaker 1: I was really in the red, six figures in the red.
Speaker 1: This summer is much more mild, much more manageable. I
Speaker 1: did have some deep runs, you know, I had second
Speaker 1: place finish online. I had a nice deep run not
Speaker 1: at the World Series but at the Venetian in the
Speaker 1: World Poker Tour. So so I had some really nice
Speaker 1: moments where I could have really made something happen. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a big difference even between second and first,
Speaker 1: certainly between fiftieth and first. So those moments can make
Speaker 1: or break a summer. You know, had I just done
Speaker 1: a tiny bit better, I would have been in the black.
Speaker 1: But I was there, right, I was in the position,
Speaker 1: in the position to do a tiny bit better, And
Speaker 1: that makes me happy, right, Like, that's that's what you
Speaker 1: That's the best that you can do is keep putting
Speaker 1: yourself in that position to make the really big money.
Speaker 1: And as long as you can keep getting there, then
Speaker 1: eventually you'll you'll get over the top and be able
Speaker 1: to kind of break through. And you know that, I
Speaker 1: think that's that's what I found. Nate, You've done that too,
Speaker 1: and so I think that as long as we keep
Speaker 1: performing well, I think it can't you can't think of
Speaker 1: it as a failure, even when you know this time
Speaker 1: around you didn't quite make it over the top, because
Speaker 1: it is just you know, one or two hands away
Speaker 1: from a winning.
Speaker 2: Summer, literally right, the whole summer can and this and
Speaker 2: be careful to keep in mind when things work in
Speaker 2: your favor. Right, it's easy to think about your bust
Speaker 2: out hand, whether it was a bad beat or a
Speaker 2: cooler or a flip you loss, you thro all terms
Speaker 2: booker players will know, right or in my case, triple
Speaker 2: heir a bluff that called down strong hair on top
Speaker 2: of his range, almost up in the fold.
Speaker 3: He didn't, right.
Speaker 2: But you know, you also usually win a lot of flips,
Speaker 2: get a lot of luck. There's lots of luck in
Speaker 2: ways that is more subtle sometimes, right when your opponent
Speaker 2: has a hand that shouldn't bust you and they chicken
Speaker 2: out and don't bet thinly enough. Right when you're rescued
Speaker 2: from making a dumb shove because someone else shoves first
Speaker 2: and they run into as instead of you. Right, the
Speaker 2: butterfly effect. There's a lot of luck involved. Speaking of luck,
Speaker 2: Versus said, do you have any thoughts on the main
Speaker 2: event champion? Michael Musrochi. He's a very good and intimidating player.
Speaker 2: He also had a crazy run. I think Doug Polk
Speaker 2: ran the numbers and found like you're like ninety nine
Speaker 2: point ninth percentile luck and all ins.
Speaker 1: He did, he did, And there was one moment where
Speaker 1: I think he had won ten or eleven all ins
Speaker 1: in a row. Nate, that is so improbable, right, I
Speaker 1: think think back to, like, what's the greatest streak you've
Speaker 1: ever had in winning all ins? I think mine might
Speaker 1: be three, right, Like, I don't think I've ever won
Speaker 1: more than three all ins in a row like that.
Speaker 1: I tried to think about it, but ten is just
Speaker 1: it's insane. So he was he was running. You know,
Speaker 1: you can say someone runs pure, and that means that
Speaker 1: they win all of their all ins when they're ahead.
Speaker 1: He was running more than pure because he won the
Speaker 1: ones where he was behind, right, he actually ended up
Speaker 1: hitting his you know, lucky one card. And just to
Speaker 1: be clear that this doesn't take away anything from the
Speaker 1: fact that he's a really you know, tricky player, that
Speaker 1: he puts people in tough spots, that he played well
Speaker 1: as well. I'm not trying to detract from that, but
Speaker 1: it's really good to remember that you need to run
Speaker 1: like god right to win these But.
Speaker 2: He Yeah, so he one out of ten thousand people
Speaker 2: wins the main event, right, so if you run ninety
Speaker 2: nine out of one hundred in terms of luck and
Speaker 2: then ninety nine out of one hundred in terms of skill,
Speaker 2: and you could debate, but he's certainly pretty far up
Speaker 2: in the stratosphere, especially by the way for terment like
Speaker 2: the main event, where a lot of people are scared,
Speaker 2: where you're at the same table for a long time. Right,
Speaker 2: he is certainly making technical mistakes. But like you have
Speaker 2: not seen like the German Solver gto pros do that
Speaker 2: well in the main you see people like Michael do
Speaker 2: well because there's the intimation factor. There's a player reading factor,
Speaker 2: there's the fearlessness. So many people clam up and play
Speaker 2: like knits when you see anything beyond day five to
Speaker 2: six a main event coverage, right, and you.
Speaker 3: Can't have that.
Speaker 1: You can't accuse the grind of being a lot, but
Speaker 1: a knit is not one of those facts. And by
Speaker 1: the way, for people who weren't watching, not only did
Speaker 1: he win the main event, he for the fourth time
Speaker 1: won the fifty K Players Championship and immediately after winning
Speaker 1: the main event was inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1: That has never happened before, so he became.
Speaker 2: Usually has to die for them to like like if
Speaker 2: someone dies, like accelerate in baseball, they're through the Hall
Speaker 2: of Fame.
Speaker 1: So it was quite quite the year for him. And
Speaker 1: you know, I I just to if I'm being perfectly honest,
Speaker 1: I don't think he was the technically best player at
Speaker 1: the final table. I don't think he was. He was
Speaker 1: number one, But in terms of his intuition, in terms
Speaker 1: of his presence, and in terms of just like he
Speaker 1: was on a roll. And you can't you can't. You
Speaker 1: can't underestimate that, right, Like there are this is true
Speaker 1: in sports, true, like we just to like branch out
Speaker 1: a little bit. We've talked on the show before about
Speaker 1: the hot hand fallacy, where then it turned out, you
Speaker 1: know that the hand fallacy is actually a fallacy in
Speaker 1: itself because it's not a fallacy in certain situations, including
Speaker 1: in places like poker, where like that sort of aura
Speaker 1: and that sort of mindset can actually affect how other
Speaker 1: people play, right, Like, if you think I'm invincible right now,
Speaker 1: then people will play differently against you, and you can't
Speaker 1: fake it, by the way, like this is something that
Speaker 1: has to come comes from somewhere else and people so
Speaker 1: people do get hot hands, right, And it's not that
Speaker 1: the odds change, it's that Nate. You know, last week
Speaker 1: on the show, we talked about butterfly effect. You just
Speaker 1: mentioned it here, But it's that the different those different
Speaker 1: things on the margin shift a tiny bit enough to
Speaker 1: put the odds more in your favor and you end
Speaker 1: up kind of doing better than you otherwise would. And
Speaker 1: I think that that's a really really powerful factor that
Speaker 1: we shouldn't underestimate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's tricky against the player? I mean, look, you
Speaker 2: know this this more with like intermediate players and someone
Speaker 2: like miss Rahi, right, but by day four of a
Speaker 2: big tournament, especially the main event. Everyone has run well
Speaker 2: to get to day four. Some people are playing with
Speaker 2: a lot more confidence for the most part, and it's
Speaker 2: routine to see people who have a lot of chips
Speaker 2: make one or two loose plays that they probably shouldn't make,
Speaker 2: but aren't that bad, then take a bad beat and
Speaker 2: then tilt right.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I've seen kind of your player rating sheet,
Speaker 1: which I think is amazing. I'm not quite that systematic
Speaker 1: about it, but I do always when I look up players,
Speaker 1: one of the things I do is I look at
Speaker 1: their most recent results, right, and I think, oh, this person,
Speaker 1: like he has X in earnings, but he just came
Speaker 1: in second in the Millionaire Maker, right, so he just
Speaker 1: had this insane score that is going to matter, right,
Speaker 1: Like that is actually something that you should be looking at.
Speaker 1: You shouldn't just be looking at what are the total earnings?
Speaker 1: How long have you been playing? Sure that matters? How
Speaker 1: have you been doing recently? Right? Did you have a
Speaker 1: huge score? Did you have a huge score yesterday? Like
Speaker 1: where is your head at? And how are you going
Speaker 1: to be playing differently as a result? And I think
Speaker 1: that that actually makes a really big difference.
Speaker 2: We saw that, right, Someone who you know has been
Speaker 2: at the World Series for a month and they have
Speaker 2: two small catch from Prisco, right, yep. Unless they had
Speaker 2: some family incident in the in between, they're probably going
Speaker 2: to be not the invest mentality yep.
Speaker 1: I think that those are really important things to take
Speaker 1: into consideration when you do your kind of decision making calculus.
Speaker 1: And it's good to remember. This is why you know,
Speaker 1: solvers are great and all, but there are when you're
Speaker 1: playing live poker, they are all these other factors that
Speaker 1: have to go into your decision tree. This is true
Speaker 1: of all, you know, all decisions like you just need
Speaker 1: to take the full situation into account. People who can
Speaker 1: do that well end up doing well. I think the
Speaker 1: grinder is someone who is very good at kind of
Speaker 1: sizing people up. Even though I doubt Nate that he
Speaker 1: looked anyone up on handed Mob or did any research
Speaker 1: on his opponents, he just has a good, you know, presence,
Speaker 1: and he's able to do things like that. Laomarchet's someone
Speaker 1: who is very intuitive at the table. I think we
Speaker 1: could see that. So I think that these are just
Speaker 1: important things, important things to note, important things too, to
Speaker 1: keep in mind. Nate. One more thing about the World Series.
Speaker 1: A few weeks back, we remember we had listener Tim
Speaker 1: Senstock on the show. He was going to be coming
Speaker 1: out to the World Series, and we talked to him
Speaker 1: in June, gave him some pointers about the events he
Speaker 1: was going to play, and I actually ran into him
Speaker 1: in the World Series in the hallway at some point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I gave I gave him a hug, and he seemed
Speaker 1: in good spirits. And then afterwards we did check in
Speaker 1: to see how his World Series went, and yeah, he
Speaker 1: wrote us back. So remember, Nate, you and I weren't
Speaker 1: too enthusiastic about the Ultra Stack because the structure is
Speaker 1: actually quite bad, right, but you know, there are good
Speaker 1: things about it. So he ended up playing that. He
Speaker 1: ended up playing both day once. He did last for
Speaker 1: a good chunk of the day, but busted both days
Speaker 1: just before Cashing. After dinner, he says he did really
Speaker 1: well in Cash though, so he ended on a positive note, Nate.
Speaker 1: So Tim did better than you and I did. He
Speaker 1: ended his World Series in the black, whereas you and
Speaker 1: I ended in the red. And he said that some
Speaker 1: of the tips we gave him, like, you know, not
Speaker 1: worrying about the clock playing his own game. I think
Speaker 1: that he says that it helped him. I hope it did,
Speaker 1: and I hope next year he's able to do well,
Speaker 1: not only at the cash tables but also in the tournaments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, isidated like to have a few more reps for
Speaker 2: these tournaments. I mean, the thing that's unique about poker
Speaker 2: is that you are thrown into the frying pan sometime
Speaker 2: and you least expect it, right, Poker never quite goes.
Speaker 2: It's not a tame beast.
Speaker 1: No, no, it isn't. Sometimes you've got a good game
Speaker 1: plan and then you know, Mike Tyson comes in, sucks
Speaker 1: you and the job there, It all goes, It all
Speaker 1: goes out the window. Nate, good luck to the two
Speaker 1: of us next year at the World Series, and you
Speaker 1: know I'll be at Barcelona. You will not be, but hopefully,
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully we will run well and play well
Speaker 1: in whatever we undertake next. Let's have some of that
Speaker 1: ten all ins in a row. Luck rub off on us.
Speaker 1: So congratulations to everyone. I hope everyone had a good
Speaker 1: World Series. And with that, Nate, let's take a break
Speaker 1: and talk to Leo Margett's Nate and I are so
Speaker 1: excited to welcome a very special guest, Leo Marrigettes, who
Speaker 1: has become the first woman in thirty years to make
Speaker 1: the final table of the WSOP main event. This really
Speaker 1: is a historic event, no matter what some people on
Speaker 1: Twitter may say, and we are so. I was so
Speaker 1: excited to talk to her about it, to talk about
Speaker 1: her run, and just in general talk some poker and
Speaker 1: some historic achievements. Welcome to the show. We're so happy
Speaker 1: to have you.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Maria, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Leo. You and I I think I met you
Speaker 1: right away when I started playing poker back back, you know,
Speaker 1: six years ago, but you'd been playing already forever, and
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, she's she's done so much, So
Speaker 1: why don't you just start off by telling us kind
Speaker 1: of what this year means to you and kind of
Speaker 1: in the scope of your poker career, because you've been
Speaker 1: playing for over a decade years.
Speaker 4: That was my siventing seven.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, almost two decades.
Speaker 4: That's yeah, I'm a nine ers.
Speaker 5: It was my seventeenth main event every year scenes two
Speaker 5: thousand and nine.
Speaker 1: Wow, Nate, how many main events have you played?
Speaker 3: I played nine?
Speaker 2: I think my first film was in two thousand and
Speaker 2: nine or eleven.
Speaker 3: But I skipped I skipped it.
Speaker 1: By all right. So Leo, Nate and I together have
Speaker 1: played fewer main events that you that you have played
Speaker 1: by yourself.
Speaker 5: When I say I've played seventeen to many events, it
Speaker 5: looks so alien to me, you know, likes if I
Speaker 5: don't relate because I have I'm zero burnout with poker.
Speaker 4: I love the game. I love intrinsically the game.
Speaker 5: Like, so that motivation or that drive was the one
Speaker 5: that didn't ever let me burn out.
Speaker 1: That's great. How did you you know during the main
Speaker 1: how did you make it so that, like your brain
Speaker 1: could stay focused as opposed to letting external things get
Speaker 1: to you, because it's so the main is hard. It's
Speaker 1: so long, right, if you go deep, it's so many days.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's definitely an energy game.
Speaker 5: Maybe since twenty eighteen, I usually do an extent every
Speaker 5: long series, an extent where I at the end of
Speaker 5: the day, I rank myself on whatever for categories like
Speaker 5: goals in mind, focused, technical skills, and then it's very
Speaker 5: interesting to see how ranking helps me stay in track,
Speaker 5: because like imagine you go to the gym and day
Speaker 5: one you can do ten reps with one hundred killers
Speaker 5: in squad. If you do that every day for a week,
Speaker 5: on day eight, you're one hundred percent without rest.
Speaker 4: No way is going to be ten reps with one
Speaker 4: hundred killers.
Speaker 5: And physically we all see it, but mentally it's not
Speaker 5: so easy to see unless we note it, because you
Speaker 5: might think on day eleventh of as series, online or life,
Speaker 5: you can tell to yourself, being honest, no, I'm giving
Speaker 5: my one hundred percent. So you feel chill because you think, yeah,
Speaker 5: I'm doing my one hundred percent, but you're one hundred
Speaker 5: percent is a fraction of what can be. You're one
Speaker 5: hundred percent maybe sixty percent of what your potential one
Speaker 5: hundred percent can be.
Speaker 4: So this extral helps me a lot because.
Speaker 5: When I start having sevens in my grades, I just
Speaker 5: take a day off and it helps. The next day
Speaker 5: I improved so much.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: And then also I realized that it was a good
Speaker 5: idea for me to write my goals as if my
Speaker 5: ideal LEO, what will my idea LEO?
Speaker 4: Do you know?
Speaker 5: Accepting, I discovered that to play well, I need to
Speaker 5: have fun in the table. And this together with what
Speaker 5: I was dealing with writing my goals and thinking that
Speaker 5: I wanted to be the only one validating my decisions.
Speaker 5: You know, like as long as I could explain to
Speaker 5: myself why I was doing something, I don't care about
Speaker 5: external people judging.
Speaker 4: There will always be people judging.
Speaker 5: And yeah, that made it actually easy because it was
Speaker 5: like I was approaching every day with zero expectations and
Speaker 5: zero of fear and like zero fear of basting, zero
Speaker 5: fear gero anxiety to win. It was just Okay, I'm
Speaker 5: going to focus on every hand the best I can.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna have fun, I'm gonna take my time to
Speaker 5: make every decision, and.
Speaker 4: I'm super happy because I was.
Speaker 5: I mean, this is I think that my biggest accomlument
Speaker 5: I was the leo I would have liked to be
Speaker 5: in that in a spot like this, right that. Of course,
Speaker 5: you even when you read the final table, you think, okay,
Speaker 5: I'm very calm, but still I was ready to experience
Speaker 5: some nerves. And I mean I did have beat, but
Speaker 5: it was nerves.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 5: I was where I wanted to be, So it was
Speaker 5: such a nice experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one thing you realize, right, and I
Speaker 2: have not made it nearly as deep as you Leo.
Speaker 2: I have had to stay six and day five in
Speaker 2: the past couple of years. The nerves build, at least
Speaker 2: for normal people. Maybe you're not normal, right, for normal people,
Speaker 2: and I think even all that, like the top people
Speaker 2: who have like made multiple final ties before, Right, there's
Speaker 2: some point at what you're playing poker for more money
Speaker 2: than you ever have or perhaps ever will, right, you know?
Speaker 2: For me, I think kind of the inflection point comes
Speaker 2: at like day four at the dinner break, where you're
Speaker 2: in the money now a lot of people are busted
Speaker 2: and you're like, okay, ninety three percent of people have
Speaker 2: been a limit for this tournament. All my friends I
Speaker 2: usually get dinner with are gone playing some other event. Right,
Speaker 2: how are you dealing with the increasing stress? Are you
Speaker 2: trying to put it out of your mind? Are you
Speaker 2: trying to get in a zone where you channel it
Speaker 2: in some ways? But what's And you had a deep
Speaker 2: run in a while ago, like two thousand and nine, right,
Speaker 2: did that help? How were your coping mechanisms?
Speaker 5: I guess well, I did run my first ever main event,
Speaker 5: and I am so grateful that I had the chance
Speaker 5: to improve from all the things I did back back
Speaker 5: By then, like a just being a look in.
Speaker 4: The phone the day before and being very.
Speaker 5: Susceptable you have, even to the comments and getting all
Speaker 5: these dopamine rush from everyone saying stuff. So I was
Speaker 5: so happy to be able to do things better after
Speaker 5: they six, not opening Instagram anymore, not taking the phone,
Speaker 5: just proactively texting whoever I wanted. I texted my parents
Speaker 5: and said, hey, I'm alive. I'm actually doing very well.
Speaker 5: Don't worry for me and the rest.
Speaker 4: I have to say I didn't feel any pressure.
Speaker 5: I know people think I might, you know, like because
Speaker 5: it was such a dibra and long time since a
Speaker 5: women didn't do it.
Speaker 4: But I didn't feel any pressure I had.
Speaker 5: I just wanted to give my best right and the
Speaker 5: challenge really was that once I made the main event.
Speaker 5: I once I made the final table, it was a
Speaker 5: bitterly for many people, even for myself. I felt so happy,
Speaker 5: but at the same time, it was not done. I mean,
Speaker 5: it actually just started. I get the goosebumps when I
Speaker 5: say it, because but the feeling that everyone's was already
Speaker 5: celebrating it was a bit contradictory because you also wanted
Speaker 5: to relax and think wow, so good.
Speaker 4: But then.
Speaker 5: I had the fucking incredible chance in my life to
Speaker 5: be in a spot where you know, you can do
Speaker 5: super big, even if it was already very good. And
Speaker 5: I remember having a chat the night before Adri and
Speaker 5: Steph and talking to them and and Adrid said, do
Speaker 5: you know you can win this thing? Right? And it's
Speaker 5: like and then he said, and you know you can
Speaker 5: win this thing and you can bust first hand. And
Speaker 5: these words didn't fail overwhelming. It felt, yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 5: I'm gonna play this. I'm gonna do my best, you know.
Speaker 5: And happily I don't have any regrets even if I had,
Speaker 5: because it could happen, you know, pressure whatever. I could
Speaker 5: have had regrets on how I played, I'm very happy
Speaker 5: that I don't.
Speaker 4: But I was even ready to make.
Speaker 5: Mistakes if you know, I can give my best and
Speaker 5: still make some mistakes. But I I am happy with
Speaker 5: the play, with how I plate, with how I handle
Speaker 5: the situation. So yeah, just like incredibly grateful also to
Speaker 5: share it, like with my close friends that were there,
Speaker 5: with my team, with the community, because after everything passed,
Speaker 5: I realized, how, you know, how much people had been
Speaker 5: routing and it's so cool to be in a spot
Speaker 5: where you want.
Speaker 4: You could feel the energy.
Speaker 5: I could feel Michael's mom like on my way to
Speaker 5: the final table, she just said, oh, you know, my
Speaker 5: heart is divided because my son is also there.
Speaker 4: But I you know, this kind of stuff, this kind
Speaker 4: of like we all have people in our lives. I
Speaker 4: reflect better than that.
Speaker 5: We all have people in our lives that loves us
Speaker 5: or support us. But it's not that gom on to
Speaker 5: be that lives pood in us both where people can
Speaker 5: show you they're support and their love in sata granibre.
Speaker 1: Way, something that you said earlier. I just want to
Speaker 1: point out for for everyone because I think it's so
Speaker 1: important and people forget it. You could tell watching the
Speaker 1: final table, like watching the runs, like you could tell
Speaker 1: the whole time like there were people who were, you know,
Speaker 1: just super focused, which obviously like it's a main event,
Speaker 1: it's good, but you were all you were playing well,
Speaker 1: but you were having a blast and you could actually
Speaker 1: feel that energy. And I think that that's so important
Speaker 1: to remember. I mean, poker is a phenomenal way to
Speaker 1: learn how to think better. Right. It is such like
Speaker 1: a It is an incredibly powerful, you know, mental tool,
Speaker 1: all of these things, but it's also a game, right,
Speaker 1: It's also supposed to be fun, and I think people
Speaker 1: lose sight of that, and I wonder, you know, I
Speaker 1: would love to think that part of your exceptional performance
Speaker 1: was due to the fact that you had a blast, right,
Speaker 1: that you were actually enjoying yourself.
Speaker 5: Well, because I don't know other people, but I also
Speaker 5: I mean, in poker can be tool also to know
Speaker 5: yourself better, right exactly exa absolutely for me this year,
Speaker 5: and it's been seventeen years that I've been playing at
Speaker 5: this more seriously, I realized, I give my best when
Speaker 5: I'm having fun, and at the end, we are lucky
Speaker 5: enough to put our time and energy and effort into
Speaker 5: a game, and yeah, what are games for?
Speaker 4: Like Like, I in the same way that when I trained.
Speaker 5: In the gym, I enjoy I have fun and that's why,
Speaker 5: probably why I stick to it. With poker is the same,
Speaker 5: like it was so different. I don't think I've ever
Speaker 5: had so much fun. And in a way, there was
Speaker 5: a couple of hours that I didn't have any.
Speaker 6: Fun from ninety hours of play, no, and then I
Speaker 6: went when I was not having fun, I went again
Speaker 6: to rushing decisions.
Speaker 5: I remember a hand with with Michael, I just snapped
Speaker 5: folded to avoid the uncomfortability, me not having fun, me
Speaker 5: not having fun, embracing uncomfortable spots. Hey, poker is gonna
Speaker 5: bring you uncomfortable spots.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: In the beginning of the series, I was so much
Speaker 5: in the mood that I even wanted to experience those
Speaker 5: uncomfortable situations because it's gonna happen if you avoid them.
Speaker 5: You know, it's impossible you perform well because it's like
Speaker 5: it doesn't happen. You know, you cannot just seek easy
Speaker 5: sports or easy decisions. So I just needed to switch
Speaker 5: my mind and say, hey, let's embrace and comfort. I
Speaker 5: was almost curious and looking forward to get those uncomfortable
Speaker 5: spots that come from playing poker, especially in high level,
Speaker 5: lead level. You know, like you're gonna accept it. You're
Speaker 5: gonna go through on comfortable spots, and you need to
Speaker 5: deal with them and done with them, because if you
Speaker 5: just asking them one of the time, okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're never gonna learn. You know. I love
Speaker 1: that you're pointing out the importance of taking your time.
Speaker 1: This is something I need to work on as well,
Speaker 1: because I'm a fast player. I make quick decisions. I
Speaker 1: don't like tanking. I don't like when people tank, Like
Speaker 1: you know, I'm one of those people who calls the clock.
Speaker 1: And but it's something that like, sometimes I've made big
Speaker 1: mistakes because I've acted too quickly. And I think that sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, it's easy to kind of just snap full snap,
Speaker 1: you know, just just make those quick decisions because you think.
Speaker 1: But something that you that you said, even though like
Speaker 1: just to make sure that you're not missing something, just
Speaker 1: to kind of think it through. I think that in
Speaker 1: poker and in life, we often don't write. We we
Speaker 1: often don't take the time to just make sure and
Speaker 1: instead we just act. And I think that that's just
Speaker 1: such an important reminder that I'm glad that that was
Speaker 1: something that that you've brought up explicitly.
Speaker 4: As you said, it also happened to me when it
Speaker 4: was one of my leaks.
Speaker 5: It was one of the columns I raised myself for
Speaker 5: today because I leak on that sometimes it's not playing
Speaker 5: too fast, and I know some of the mistakes I
Speaker 5: made worse because of that, because I believe I can
Speaker 5: think well right like I can have Obviously, as I said,
Speaker 5: I don't know anything, and there's always so much time,
Speaker 5: that's so much.
Speaker 4: Room for improvement.
Speaker 5: But at least if I make a mistake, is I
Speaker 5: want it to be because there's something I don't know,
Speaker 5: not because it's something I could have got there if
Speaker 5: I just allowed myself a couple more minutes to think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that gap between the kind of idealized leo and
Speaker 2: the actual one. Because we've all had hands as poker players,
Speaker 2: but everybody, right, I assume that like in the moment,
Speaker 2: you're like, boy, if I were a really good player,
Speaker 2: I would fold this hand, or if I were a
Speaker 2: really good player, I would turn this hand into a bluff.
Speaker 2: And you're tired, and you and you don't do it right,
Speaker 2: and you kind of know you're not doing it, and
Speaker 2: like somehow you're not capable of like just pushing your
Speaker 2: hand in a different motion. Did you have a big
Speaker 2: stack early in the main or when did you start
Speaker 2: to like think I can make the final table.
Speaker 3: Never?
Speaker 5: I just well, I was focusing on every hand, and
Speaker 5: that's the good thing.
Speaker 4: I didn't have any expectations. The expectation the goal.
Speaker 5: Is not honestly, and that's why I'm more like proud
Speaker 5: about it, because I didn't really thought I'm going to
Speaker 5: make finance they want, so all of a sudden we
Speaker 5: weren't in the final dayment and I'm like.
Speaker 1: That's great, So do you I mean obviously people will
Speaker 1: you know, talk about this. It is kind of a
Speaker 1: historic moment, you know, first time in thirty years, first
Speaker 1: time in the modern era. Not to take anything away
Speaker 1: from Barbara and right, but making it through like two
Speaker 1: hundred players is very different from making your through ten
Speaker 1: thousand players, right, It's a totally different game. So do
Speaker 1: you are you know, for others it's a big deal
Speaker 1: for you, Like, now that it's over, is this a
Speaker 1: big deal? Is it going to change kind of how
Speaker 1: you what you're doing going forward? Or was it just
Speaker 1: one more tournament that you went deep in and now
Speaker 1: it's kind of on to the next.
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, onto the next.
Speaker 5: But enjoying the experience, right, Like I think we've all
Speaker 5: dreamed of that, and all of a sudden I was
Speaker 5: living what we all dreamed. Like I want to enjoy sugary, right,
Speaker 5: But I don't feel like, you know, you get all
Speaker 5: these now you represent now all the women fighting, I
Speaker 5: think this is a bit alien to me. Like I'm
Speaker 5: super glad if someone being women men whatever can feel
Speaker 5: inspired by what I did or feels good.
Speaker 3: But I.
Speaker 4: Don't dare to say.
Speaker 5: I represent all the women that you know play poker,
Speaker 5: and no I mean dry like I think we represent ourselves.
Speaker 5: It's individual represents themselves. But at the same time, I
Speaker 5: feel very honored that someone can get inspired and regarding.
Speaker 4: Life is going to change to be hones. I feel less.
Speaker 5: Motivated to play one to play one case. But besides that, No,
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna start playing tryon. I'm not gonna I'm
Speaker 5: not gonna take a year of I'm not I'm just gonna.
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna keep grinding as I did.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: I love I'm lucky that I love the game. I
Speaker 5: love putting time into getting better. I am very well
Speaker 5: surrunded also, and I think it's key or to be
Speaker 5: able to talk hands and talk think poker, which is
Speaker 5: also very lucky.
Speaker 4: I'm not it's not gonna change much.
Speaker 2: By the way, the day that there's a daybreak before
Speaker 2: the final table, right, how did you spend that time?
Speaker 2: Were you prepping, were you taking care of friends, were
Speaker 2: you sleeping? Were you having a really nice day by
Speaker 2: the pool or what did you do?
Speaker 5: I tried, and I took it as another day of
Speaker 5: the main event, but without cards.
Speaker 4: But my approach was, this is not a day off,
Speaker 4: this is a.
Speaker 5: Day of of mainland, but we are just not playing
Speaker 5: with cards.
Speaker 4: So I stick to my routine. I slept. Can you
Speaker 4: believe this is crazy?
Speaker 5: Can you believe that the day I slept better was
Speaker 5: of all vera I slept fucking nine hours was the
Speaker 5: day before the final table?
Speaker 1: Now I can't believe that.
Speaker 7: I cannot believe it thither, but that's how Sid I
Speaker 7: was and happy to be her right like it gave me,
Speaker 7: and it gave me also so much confidence the fact
Speaker 7: that I had slept so much, No, because it didn't
Speaker 7: what you know.
Speaker 5: But back to the day itself. I trained, I went
Speaker 5: for lunch, very chill. I didn't do much social I'm
Speaker 5: not I'm a bit introverted anyway, so I needed time
Speaker 5: and it was a day for myself a lot, I think.
Speaker 5: I went for lunch and then I had a meeting
Speaker 5: with Adri and Steph for a couple of hours, and
Speaker 5: then at eight o'clock I was having dinner by myself
Speaker 5: and I was left at nine thirty.
Speaker 2: So Maria and I you were actually our first desire
Speaker 2: to have on the show this week, more than the
Speaker 2: man who won the main event, Michael MSRAI. If he
Speaker 2: wants to come on, we'll happy you to have him
Speaker 2: on in a future week. What was it like to
Speaker 2: play against him? I mean, I mean again, yeah.
Speaker 4: You know, ah. I like his vibe.
Speaker 5: He's so uncomfortable, he's so uncomfortable to being the table,
Speaker 5: which is the biggest compliment, right that someone can tell you.
Speaker 5: And I think at some points he was speaking on me.
Speaker 5: I could see how he played, and I know he
Speaker 5: was speaking on me to be extra aggressive because he
Speaker 5: was putting so much bluffs then needed on Hans versus
Speaker 5: me and instead cutting himself on bluffs against for example,
Speaker 5: other people, which you know, like it's poker, right, and
Speaker 5: it worked, and.
Speaker 4: I just I don't know. Some people we didn't talk much,
Speaker 4: but some people just the.
Speaker 5: Vibe you like it, and I liked his vibe.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. By the way, for
Speaker 1: people who don't realize that when you're talking about Adre
Speaker 1: on your rail, that's Adrian Matteos, who is one of
Speaker 1: the best, if not the best, tournament players in the world.
Speaker 1: So you definitely had like one of the best minds
Speaker 1: in poker by your side and helping you through this.
Speaker 1: Just to add Tonate's question, did you guys talk all
Speaker 1: about the dynamic you know with the grinder? Did you
Speaker 1: talk about specific players and specific exploits or not?
Speaker 5: Did you just kind of this threatenedy? You know, he
Speaker 5: was so cool, like he was super nice. He told
Speaker 5: me I could any doubt, I could write him any
Speaker 5: moment of the day. It was I felt really supported
Speaker 5: by all the team, but yeah, especially by by Adri
Speaker 5: And we talked more about the spot, right, like being
Speaker 5: in a spot could be so overwhelming that he so
Speaker 5: I had confidence. So it was very good because the
Speaker 5: things we talked it just work to validate my approach
Speaker 5: to the day.
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, it was It's not just
Speaker 1: inspiring because of how far you went, but just how
Speaker 1: you played right. It's it's good to watch that and
Speaker 1: to see someone succeed while having a smile, while having
Speaker 1: a good time and not being scared. Right, like you
Speaker 1: you put it out there, like you ran big bluffs,
Speaker 1: like you made big calls, like you you actually you
Speaker 1: know sure, like you can think back to the ninth hand,
Speaker 1: but like forget it like that happens happened, right, shit
Speaker 1: happens like we all we've all been in that the.
Speaker 5: Less word you are about making mistakes, like the less
Speaker 5: a perfectionists you become, the more toolet and you are
Speaker 5: with mistakes.
Speaker 4: Paradoxically, the less mistakes you do right.
Speaker 1: Well, do you have so you know, for everyone listening
Speaker 1: and for for everyone who followed your journey, do you
Speaker 1: have any kind of parting words of wisdom you've already
Speaker 1: shared so much or anything that you want you want
Speaker 1: to kind of things.
Speaker 2: To promote person?
Speaker 5: Now that's like, I really you want to say thank
Speaker 5: you again because I've even.
Speaker 4: Never felt so.
Speaker 5: Supportive, so supported with so many people asking my cards,
Speaker 5: like I felt the energy.
Speaker 4: And also this is so much nicer shared right like.
Speaker 5: And in the same way that you know you you
Speaker 5: try not to take two serious comments from people you
Speaker 5: don't know, because when it's bad, you know you wouldn't
Speaker 5: you wouldn't accept an advice.
Speaker 4: From these people.
Speaker 5: So it's good to keep that this that these times
Speaker 5: also when the feedback is good, because something I like
Speaker 5: a lot to think in bad moments, it's applicable for now.
Speaker 4: No like these two show pass right like, now you
Speaker 4: are a super hero. Now everything is good bad. You know,
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, I'm.
Speaker 5: So much more than just a playing, which I think
Speaker 5: at the same time is good because I don't create
Speaker 5: my identity from playing. And I think this is a
Speaker 5: good advice for in general, but for players, for for
Speaker 5: people that play for fun, for people that play. I mean,
Speaker 5: I don't like to give advice because it's a bit
Speaker 5: like oh and so listened advice, But since you asked,
Speaker 5: I think to to not link your identity with with
Speaker 5: your game is quite healthy mentally because you know, things
Speaker 5: go well, things go bad, you go through with you
Speaker 5: have super incredible differends and you are still you right
Speaker 5: and shouldn't be your results that validate you.
Speaker 1: That is a really wonderful message I think to to
Speaker 1: to remember to internalize, uh to to end on. And
Speaker 1: also like, I think it's one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: you ended up doing so well this year. So for I,
Speaker 1: Nate and I do not see you as being defined
Speaker 1: by your results. That said, congratulations on an incredible result.
Speaker 1: It's really it's really wonderful. It was a pleasure watching you,
Speaker 1: rooting for you, and we're so glad that we had
Speaker 1: the chance to have you on that.
Speaker 5: I had asked for time also in this tat and yeah,
Speaker 5: I hope to see you live running together the main
Speaker 5: um in Barcelona.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. So that was our conversation with Leo Marchettes.
Speaker 1: So let's take a quick break now and then we'll
Speaker 1: hear from Eric's sidell So today on the show, we've
Speaker 1: got a very special guest with us, a poker legend,
Speaker 1: Poker Hall of Famer, ten time World Series of Poker
Speaker 1: Bracelet winner. As of now we are recording this in
Speaker 1: May World Poker Tour title holder, EPT title holder, you know,
Speaker 1: Triple Crown winner, basically every title that exists. He has
Speaker 1: high roller extraordinaire. Welcome to the show, Eric's idel.
Speaker 3: That's a very generous intro.
Speaker 1: Well, and of course Eric's greatest claim to fame is
Speaker 1: teaching me how to play poker. It is, so Eric,
Speaker 1: let's you know, we're gonna talk a lot of poker
Speaker 1: and risk and all of that. But why don't we
Speaker 1: start off by just kind of going back to the
Speaker 1: beginning to you know, little Eric growing up, how did
Speaker 1: your interest in games and in poker even originate? How
Speaker 1: did you even get introduced to that world. Were you
Speaker 1: someone who was curious about it from a young age?
Speaker 1: Is it something that came later.
Speaker 3: I started playing back emmon when I was in high school,
Speaker 3: and then that led me to a place called the
Speaker 3: Game Room, which was on the Upper West Side, and
Speaker 3: then ended up going to the Mayfair, which was a
Speaker 3: well known back Ammon and bridge club in those days,
Speaker 3: and played back em in there for years, and a
Speaker 3: poker gamy ended up developing in the Mayfair. At the time.
Speaker 3: They didn't allow any pros in, which is very helpful
Speaker 3: to me because I was terrible, so I got to
Speaker 3: play with other people who are also terrible, and I
Speaker 3: would say it just slowly started to take over the Mayfair,
Speaker 3: and I mean eventually the Mayfair ended up being a
Speaker 3: poker club.
Speaker 1: Eric, So you kind of sort of played games professionally
Speaker 1: in the sense that you know, paid the bills. But
Speaker 1: then you had a little detour and you went to
Speaker 1: Wall Street, which is a gambling of a much gambler
Speaker 1: nature than poker. I would say, talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about kind of how your background in games prepared you
Speaker 1: for that and how you you know, how you ended
Speaker 1: up then transitioning back and playing poker full time, leaving
Speaker 1: Wall Street for a career that you know, many people
Speaker 1: would say, what are you doing?
Speaker 3: I do think it was a natural transition to go
Speaker 3: from playing games to Wall Street. And you see a
Speaker 3: lot of poker players now going out to Wall Street.
Speaker 3: But while I was working on Wall Street, I was
Speaker 3: also flying out to play cash games in Vegas. I
Speaker 3: didn't I didn't like being on Wall Street. I didn't
Speaker 3: like having to wear a tie, and there's there's a
Speaker 3: competitive and a pettiness there. And I didn't like trading
Speaker 3: on the floor where people are fighting for ones and
Speaker 3: twos and it was it's kind of an ugly environment
Speaker 3: and I really didn't like being part of it. I
Speaker 3: just felt like to be rewarded trading options on the floor,
Speaker 3: you really need to be a dick, you know, and
Speaker 3: and try and screw people over it. And that was
Speaker 3: basically that was what was being done to me. And
Speaker 3: it wasn't It didn't feel good.
Speaker 2: Our listeners might think, uh, boy, isn't poker kind of
Speaker 2: cut through? But there's like a kind of camaraderie among players.
Speaker 3: Most of the time.
Speaker 2: And Rick, you played in like some of the biggest,
Speaker 2: most famous games of all time. I mean, has that
Speaker 2: camaraderie lessened over the years as you kind of had
Speaker 2: more tourists and professionals, or I mean, what's what was
Speaker 2: this scene like when you're kind of young, young, skinny kid,
Speaker 2: I guess, and trying to get your feet wet in
Speaker 2: Vegas which you don't yet know that Well.
Speaker 3: It was fine because I knew enough people. And the
Speaker 3: nice thing about poker is you can. I mean, now
Speaker 3: it's changed a little bit where there are more private
Speaker 3: games in Vegas, but in those days, all the games
Speaker 3: were open and that was kind of part of the
Speaker 3: laws that you got to play if if you wanted to.
Speaker 3: It was it was competitive, but it was it was
Speaker 3: never unfriendly. I mean, it can be exhausting, but it's
Speaker 3: also I also really enjoy the environment. I like rooting
Speaker 3: for friends and things like that in.
Speaker 1: Terms of thinking about decision making and risk taking in
Speaker 1: really high stake situations and under bright lights, right when
Speaker 1: people are looking and people are watching how you're playing.
Speaker 1: Because these days, I know in the past this wasn't
Speaker 1: the case, but these days they're all streamed, right, so
Speaker 1: people know exactly how you're making decisions. How do you
Speaker 1: deal with that? Right, how do you keep executing at
Speaker 1: a high level after you've been playing for multiple days,
Speaker 1: You're tired, everyone's watching, and the stakes are so high
Speaker 1: because the payouts keep going and going up and the
Speaker 1: pay jumps are huge. And I feel like this is
Speaker 1: one of the things that might might be the most
Speaker 1: applicable to real life, because I think people always want
Speaker 1: to know, you know, how do I make good risk
Speaker 1: decisions when the stakes are the highest.
Speaker 3: If you're playing a tournament. One of the nice things
Speaker 3: about a tournament is that the further you go along,
Speaker 3: the more that's at stake. And I think that's helpful
Speaker 3: because now you're really rewarded for paying attention and bringing
Speaker 3: of this. And so I mean, I do think sometimes
Speaker 3: I have to remind myself to get back to just
Speaker 3: being present and being in being, you know, watching the
Speaker 3: action stuff like that, But it does. It is easier
Speaker 3: as you get closer to a final table or you
Speaker 3: get closer to a win, because there's just more at stake,
Speaker 3: and it's just it becomes more interesting.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting, Nate. Do you find that as well,
Speaker 1: just in poker and in life, because there I think
Speaker 1: it's true of me and in a certain respect that
Speaker 1: as kind of as the pressure builds, you actually perform better. Right,
Speaker 1: Because there are different people. There are people who kind
Speaker 1: of can't perform under pressure, and then there are people
Speaker 1: who do their best at kind of high stakes moments.
Speaker 1: And it seems like Eric is the high stakes performer.
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that I am too. How do
Speaker 1: you see it, Nate?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you've made more deep runs in
Speaker 2: the past couple of years than I have, Maria. You know,
Speaker 2: like I have felt increasingly comfortable when the pressure does now,
Speaker 2: especially its like weaker fields, right where like, Okay, if
Speaker 2: I've made day threes a couple dozen times in my
Speaker 2: life and this is their second time, then I'm inexperienced
Speaker 2: relative to a lot of people. But you've been through
Speaker 2: that a little bit before. It also helps. I think
Speaker 2: I like when events are on TV because even though
Speaker 2: it adds some annoyances like what am I wearing?
Speaker 3: How do I look?
Speaker 2: I think it puts more pressure on other people by comparison. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I'm not sure if people do better under pressure
Speaker 2: or that they do less bad than they choke less
Speaker 2: than others. Right, But yeah, look, I mean, Eric, how
Speaker 2: do you stay sharp? Right, Because let's say you're having
Speaker 2: a mediocre World Series and then finally after six weeks, right,
Speaker 2: you just barrel through a tournament, a big event, right,
Speaker 2: you're the chip leader. It's on to day four or something.
Speaker 2: I mean, what's your routine like during the series to
Speaker 2: to pace yourself or stay sharp or early above.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, but the World Series, it's really just
Speaker 3: you're playing, you're eating, you're going to sleep. So it
Speaker 3: just there's no I mean, there aren't really. You just
Speaker 3: have to avoid distractions. It's funny because every year it
Speaker 3: comes around and you think, like, oh, good, so and
Speaker 3: Sound is going to be in town. Hopefully I'll get
Speaker 3: to have dinner with them or whatever. And it's just
Speaker 3: it's always a mistake to think that way because it's
Speaker 3: such an all immersive thing that you are. If you're
Speaker 3: not playing, you're in recovery and just you know, every
Speaker 3: date it goes like that for you know, for the
Speaker 3: whole world's here, it's six or seven weeks. Mario's smart
Speaker 3: because she takes a few days off and she'll you know,
Speaker 3: she'll go take a little mini vacation. I think that
Speaker 3: really helps.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I do always do that before the
Speaker 1: main event, because it really helps clear my mind and
Speaker 1: kind of get me out of any funk that I
Speaker 1: might be in. I find that that's very useful. And Eric,
Speaker 1: one of the things that I love, not just about
Speaker 1: the World Series, but just about your approach to poker
Speaker 1: in general, is that you're one of the only players
Speaker 1: I've met who is okay to end up missing an
Speaker 1: event that you had planned on playing, right, that you
Speaker 1: actually like in some ways. Obviously you're incredibly competitive, but
Speaker 1: in some ways you don't have ego in the moments
Speaker 1: where it matters, and you're okay to say, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling up for it, or this field looks terrible,
Speaker 1: and even though I planned on playing this, you know,
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars buy it or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that. And most players they'd
Speaker 1: feel their ego bruise, right, They're like, no, I can compete,
Speaker 1: you know in this, I'm going to play how you know?
Speaker 1: How are how are you thinking about those moments? Because
Speaker 1: you know it's that takes a lot of self knowledge
Speaker 1: and discipline to do that.
Speaker 3: Well. Yeah, I also have a no suffering rule. Stuff.
Speaker 3: I wake up and I'm just you know, and I'm tired.
Speaker 3: I just won't play if I'm dragged. It just it.
Speaker 3: I don't want to be unhappy at the table, and
Speaker 3: especially at an event like the World Series, where there
Speaker 3: are just so many events every day, you have to
Speaker 3: be very conscious of what kind of energy you can bring.
Speaker 1: No suffering rule, that's amazing. I think we should all
Speaker 1: implement that. If you wake up and you feel like
Speaker 1: this is going to be suffering, you just say.
Speaker 3: No, yeah, exactly are you trying to bracelet match? Are
Speaker 3: you trying to compete with No? I mean, I'm not
Speaker 3: one of those guys. I don't play that as many
Speaker 3: tournaments as the guys who are bracelet hunting. I feel
Speaker 3: like I have enough bracelets and I don't really have
Speaker 3: to chase them anymore. And it's also like it's one
Speaker 3: of these things where if you win one, it's some
Speaker 3: kind of mini miracle. I just don't like to think
Speaker 3: that way. I just want to play, Like, for instance,
Speaker 3: this summer, there's some cool tournaments at the WIN and
Speaker 3: I'll be playing those, you know, which are not bracelet events,
Speaker 3: but just you know, it's nice to play at the
Speaker 3: WIN and they run good tournaments.
Speaker 1: So nay, ten bracelets. Do we think that's enough? I
Speaker 1: think I think we.
Speaker 5: Need to know.
Speaker 2: I think thirteen bakers doesn't.
Speaker 3: Let's not be let's sucking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure, Eric, was there a moment when
Speaker 2: you're like poker has changed? When were there like inflection
Speaker 2: points that you remember?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 3: At the main one really is computers coming into the game,
Speaker 3: and that's really changed things over the last I don't know,
Speaker 3: eight years. I'm not sure how long it's been, but
Speaker 3: it's really it just it has changed everything. I have
Speaker 3: a friend who jokes with me that I've been saying
Speaker 3: for about thirty years that the game is too tough
Speaker 3: and I need and I need to stop playing. But really,
Speaker 3: more recently, the computers have made it a much greater challenge,
Speaker 3: but it's still you know, it's made it's made it
Speaker 3: more difficult for me to play, but it's also made
Speaker 3: it more interesting and uh, and it is. It's fun
Speaker 3: to play against these computer guys and to and also
Speaker 3: to see how much the game has it evolved. So
Speaker 3: I enjoy being part of that and trying to figure
Speaker 3: things out in this more modern computerized the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean you're you're still succeeding. Right at
Speaker 1: EPT Monte Carlo, you came in third in one of
Speaker 1: the high rollers. You've won several of your bracelets in
Speaker 1: the last few years, so clearly you're you're still able
Speaker 1: to compete at a high level. Do you you know,
Speaker 1: how do you prepare not just for the World Series
Speaker 1: but for series in general. Do you work with solvers
Speaker 1: kind of what does your what does your study routine
Speaker 1: look like? And has it changed significantly over the years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely changed a lot. I mean, it used
Speaker 3: to be you didn't really have to do anything. You
Speaker 3: just showed up and played, you know, which was really nice.
Speaker 3: It just it was a different time and there were
Speaker 3: some bugs, but the bucks really weren't that relevant to play.
Speaker 3: It was nice back then you could just you could
Speaker 3: just show up and play. And now, yeah, you have
Speaker 3: to study. You have to study solvers and study openings.
Speaker 3: It's you know, I think that there are people now
Speaker 3: who are completely immersed in it or studying and playing
Speaker 3: and that's kind of all they do. It creates, you know,
Speaker 3: an extra challenge to go up against people like that,
Speaker 3: but it's also you know, it's interesting and exciting and
Speaker 3: it's you know, it's fun. I feel like I'm as
Speaker 3: much a fan as I am a player, and you know,
Speaker 3: sit down at the table and I'll be like, Wow,
Speaker 3: these guys are just so good. This is really fun.
Speaker 3: You know, that's great.
Speaker 1: And I think that's probably one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: you're still so good, right is because you are. It's
Speaker 1: the ego thing again. You're you're learning from from others
Speaker 1: and you're kind of incorporating it into your game. I
Speaker 1: remember one hand, so a few years ago, I think
Speaker 1: it was Poker Go released some of the archives from
Speaker 1: like the earliest earliest World Series events, and they had
Speaker 1: some footage from nineteen eighty eight, so the famous World
Speaker 1: Series where you came in second to Johnny Chan and
Speaker 1: they they had footage of just at the final table
Speaker 1: before you guys were heads up, and I still remember
Speaker 1: you just going bananas with a small pocket pair right
Speaker 1: there was like a raise and a call and you
Speaker 1: had I think it was pocket four's and you just
Speaker 1: like gripped it. So talk about first of all, fearlessness
Speaker 1: and secondly, no one was doing that right like these days,
Speaker 1: you know that these make actually really good bluffs, But
Speaker 1: if you were looking at people's game back then that
Speaker 1: was just absolutely not done. Obviously, you were young, and
Speaker 1: you would say young and stupid. I'd say, you know, young,
Speaker 1: young and fear. But those plays like where did that
Speaker 1: come from? Was that just intuition patterns? Like what were
Speaker 1: do you? Do you remember how you thought of doing
Speaker 1: things that nobody had done before.
Speaker 3: I do remember I was very focused on reads and
Speaker 3: things like that, and I was I was pretty reckless,
Speaker 3: I think, you know, especially you know, if you talk
Speaker 3: about nineteen eighty eight, I didn't really know what I
Speaker 3: was doing and I was really but I do remember
Speaker 3: feeling like, this is really fun because you get reads
Speaker 3: from some of these players that I wasn't getting in
Speaker 3: the game back in New York, and it was like
Speaker 3: it was very exciting for me to think, Wow, I
Speaker 3: can play with these people and I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 3: have any any experience outside of New York. And it was.
Speaker 2: Were the reads fact in obvious or just that you
Speaker 2: have a knack for picking that up, or more experience
Speaker 2: or people better about avoiding tells now?
Speaker 3: I think they were more obvious back then, and I
Speaker 3: think people were less concerned about timing and patterns and
Speaker 3: things like that. So you know, it was just you know,
Speaker 3: everybody was kind of playing by the seat of their
Speaker 3: pants back then, so there really were a lot of opportunities.
Speaker 3: And also, you know, I just when you don't know
Speaker 3: what you're doing, you can really push things pretty far.
Speaker 3: Let's say it's the.
Speaker 2: First day of the main event. I assume you like
Speaker 2: the main Event, Eric, You're not one of these.
Speaker 3: I love the main Event. I hope I can play
Speaker 3: it every single year. I really get a kick out
Speaker 3: of it. It's day one.
Speaker 2: Maybe you're you, you have some media trailing you, but
Speaker 2: everyone assume everyone knows who you are at the table, right,
Speaker 2: how are you adjusting to that, right to being a
Speaker 2: known person where there might be some inhimidation factor. There
Speaker 2: are thousands of hours of you playing poker on tape, right,
Speaker 2: how do you adjust to, say, like a rank amateur
Speaker 2: playing against you versus like a nervous kid who looks
Speaker 2: up to you, versus like another another pro.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to play against each person individually, but I
Speaker 3: don't really feel like any kind of reputation or anything
Speaker 3: like that is going to is going to be helpful.
Speaker 3: It's like, I don't feel like there are those types
Speaker 3: of exploits where people will be more reluctant to play
Speaker 3: a hand with me because because they proceed me to
Speaker 3: be a good player or well known or whatever. I think,
Speaker 3: if anything, they might be more likely to play a
Speaker 3: hand because it's kind of fun for them, you know,
Speaker 3: to have a story to tell the people back home,
Speaker 3: So they might be a little bit more likely to
Speaker 3: try and bluff me that kind of thing. But I
Speaker 3: try and play it, you know, as straight as possible.
Speaker 1: So in some ways you've become Johnny Chan in rounders,
Speaker 1: where Matt Damon just wants to bluff you just to
Speaker 1: be able to say that he bluffed Johnny Cham.
Speaker 3: I think that exists. I really do think that exists.
Speaker 3: I remember being at a table with a world champion,
Speaker 3: uh in a in a big tournament, and he the
Speaker 3: guy raised him and he moved all in and he
Speaker 3: said to the guy, don't you want to, you know,
Speaker 3: play against the world champion. You know. The guy ended
Speaker 3: up calling and it was just it was so ridiculous.
Speaker 3: But I do think that goes through some people's minds,
Speaker 3: is so I think it does. It probably raises it
Speaker 3: raises the risk that somebody's gonna try and bluff you, uh,
Speaker 3: And I think that if it's televised, it's even more dramatic.
Speaker 3: I think people people don't want to be seen as
Speaker 3: somebody who's being bluffed on TV. And if they can
Speaker 3: bluff you on TV, then they have, you know, then
Speaker 3: then they can go back and be a hero in
Speaker 3: their own game.
Speaker 2: How much impact was there for you from losing the
Speaker 2: Immortalized by Rounders heads up match against Johnny Chang? Was
Speaker 2: that like, were you still happy the next morning because
Speaker 2: you got fucking second place? Or was it like do
Speaker 2: you have like lifelong regret for me to where are
Speaker 2: you on that spectrum?
Speaker 3: The funny thing about that is, to me, that's still
Speaker 3: one of my favorite tournaments ever, just because I was
Speaker 3: really at the very beginning of my career and I
Speaker 3: had no idea how my skills would be applied at
Speaker 3: the World Series. I had a couple of people in
Speaker 3: the game that encouraged me to go, but I had
Speaker 3: no confidence that I would that I was going to
Speaker 3: be a favorite in the World Series, or that I
Speaker 3: could go deep and to have that experience of going
Speaker 3: through those four days and you know, trying to outplay
Speaker 3: people and the whole thing I mean, it was amazing
Speaker 3: for me. I just I love that tournament still. I
Speaker 3: still have, you know, great feelings about that. To me,
Speaker 3: The fact that I lost is it's not really a
Speaker 3: big deal. You know, you win tournaments and you lose them,
Speaker 3: you know, I don't I really have good feelings about that,
Speaker 3: you know how you know, each day of that tournament,
Speaker 3: how fun it was to see like, hey, I'm playing
Speaker 3: with these guys, I'm doing well, you know, and I'm
Speaker 3: seeing some fun things I'm seeing, you know, I'm you know,
Speaker 3: finding some creative plays that you know, because you're just
Speaker 3: making things up as you go law And I think
Speaker 3: for me, at least, I was discovering a lot of things,
Speaker 3: you know at that time.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that that is a wonderful note to
Speaker 1: go out on, because that is that is kind of
Speaker 1: a peak accomplishment, even though you did not end up
Speaker 1: winning that bracelet. But do you have any you know,
Speaker 1: as I'm sure that a lot of poker players are
Speaker 1: listening to this or and aspiring poker players, do you
Speaker 1: want to leave? You know, the first question I ever
Speaker 1: asked you, I'm gonna I'm gonna end the interview with it,
Speaker 1: which is if you could tell one thing, kind of
Speaker 1: one piece of advice for for poker players who are
Speaker 1: either starting out or at any point in their journey.
Speaker 1: What would it be.
Speaker 3: Well, I remember I told you to pay attention, and
Speaker 3: I still think that applies because there's just there's so
Speaker 3: much information. I feel like people are teaching you how
Speaker 3: to beat them if you just pay enough attention to
Speaker 3: their patterns and and what they're doing. So if you're
Speaker 3: paying enough attention, then you know that that that's a
Speaker 3: big exploit.
Speaker 1: I think that those are those are wise words and
Speaker 1: very difficult. So phone bands, yay.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you one question about my co host.
Speaker 2: When you were coaching Maria, when did you think that
Speaker 2: she had real potential for the game.
Speaker 3: Maria was an exciting project. I mean just because she
Speaker 3: she came from nowhere. She she you know, she didn't
Speaker 3: know how many cards were in a deck. But I
Speaker 3: think what I mean what happened with her was she
Speaker 3: she just worked so hard and so that was that
Speaker 3: was really that's the key to how successful she was.
Speaker 3: Is she really she was interested, she was open minded,
Speaker 3: and she you know, and she was willing to put
Speaker 3: the work in. And for me, it's it's just it's
Speaker 3: really thrilling to see that she's still playing. I really,
Speaker 3: I really got to kick out of the fact that
Speaker 3: she's still playing and still doing well. I continues to
Speaker 3: do well, so it's fun to sweat her well.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your time today, and thank you for
Speaker 1: your time throughout our entire relationship, because you have given
Speaker 1: me more hours of your life than than anyone has
Speaker 1: any right to ask for. So thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1: This was an absolute pleasure, and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was all mine. I'm a fan of the pod.
Speaker 1: Thank you friend of the pod. Nate likes to call
Speaker 1: people friends of the pod, so thank you friend of
Speaker 1: the pod here.
Speaker 3: I know that's a big upgrade. I like it.
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach
Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm.
Speaker 1: And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber,
Speaker 1: we have some bonus content for you today. It's more
Speaker 1: from our interview with Leo Marjetz that's coming up right
Speaker 1: after the credits.
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Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanikova.
Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co
Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced
Speaker 2: by Isabel Carter. Our associate producer is Sonia Gerwin. Sally
Speaker 2: Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.
Speaker 2: Mixing by Sarah Bruger.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for tuning in.