00:00:15 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova and. 00:00:31 Speaker 2: I'm Nate Silver. We can't escape poker, Maria, No, we can't. We're going to be speaking with very privileged to speak with one of the nine final tableists, Leo Margit's terrific player. You'll see, she's a great personality and talks in a great deal of candor about what this very human experience is like. Also, I believe the first woman in thirty years. Is that correct to reach the final table? 00:00:56 Speaker 1: That is absolutely correct. So yeah, we'll be giving you a little recap of our own world series, which was not nearly as successful as Leo's, and then we'll let Leo wow you with her deep run. And we're also going to have some interview content from my poker mentor Eric sidell Nay. This is going to be a poker centric pokeerrific Risky Business. 00:01:25 Speaker 2: It is kind of the origin of our relationship. Definitely probably a little overdetermined, right and kind of the show. So you get some poker on the show sometimes. But I think, as we'll hear in this interview, here's a little trade secret. Sometimes you record the interview before the top of the show, so we know what happened, but it is about decision making under pressure and the very human side of decision making under pressure. Leo is not some gto bot, right, and almost nobody is. When you make the day eight, day nine, how many days they have, ten, eleven, the event right, the final table, when you're playing for far more money than you ever have before for ninety nine point nine percent of the populations. So I think a very honest and kind of look at what it was like through her eyes. 00:02:08 Speaker 1: Absolutely before we get to layot night. We are both now back in New York City. The World Series is behind us. I ended in the red. Unfortunately, did you end in the black or in the red? Did you make money or dead? 00:02:21 Speaker 3: Ever? 00:02:21 Speaker 2: Money black can hold them. But then all these stupid fucking mix games, right anyway, that's another. 00:02:27 Speaker 3: It was. 00:02:27 Speaker 2: It was a decent world I had a lot of cashes at a pretty deep ran the main event, but like, yeah, I've run these numbers and like for a single World series, you're going to end in the red seventy five percent of the time because it's concentrated in the one time when you do make five hundred K by getting third place in the monster stack or something which happens once every infanity million years. Right, so you have to, like, you have to take events where you're get pretty good results are in the mix a lot as being relatively tolerable at least. 00:02:59 Speaker 1: Yep for sure. For sure. Now, even though I'm in the red, I'm pretty happy with how the summer went. It is, you know, much better than last summer, where I was really in the red, six figures in the red. This summer is much more mild, much more manageable. I did have some deep runs, you know, I had second place finish online. I had a nice deep run not at the World Series but at the Venetian in the World Poker Tour. So so I had some really nice moments where I could have really made something happen. Unfortunately, you know, there's a big difference even between second and first, certainly between fiftieth and first. So those moments can make or break a summer. You know, had I just done a tiny bit better, I would have been in the black. But I was there, right, I was in the position, in the position to do a tiny bit better, And that makes me happy, right, Like, that's that's what you That's the best that you can do is keep putting yourself in that position to make the really big money. And as long as you can keep getting there, then eventually you'll you'll get over the top and be able to kind of break through. And you know that, I think that's that's what I found. Nate, You've done that too, and so I think that as long as we keep performing well, I think it can't you can't think of it as a failure, even when you know this time around you didn't quite make it over the top, because it is just you know, one or two hands away from a winning. 00:04:24 Speaker 2: Summer, literally right, the whole summer can and this and be careful to keep in mind when things work in your favor. Right, it's easy to think about your bust out hand, whether it was a bad beat or a cooler or a flip you loss, you thro all terms booker players will know, right or in my case, triple heir a bluff that called down strong hair on top of his range, almost up in the fold. 00:04:45 Speaker 3: He didn't, right. 00:04:47 Speaker 2: But you know, you also usually win a lot of flips, get a lot of luck. There's lots of luck in ways that is more subtle sometimes, right when your opponent has a hand that shouldn't bust you and they chicken out and don't bet thinly enough. Right when you're rescued from making a dumb shove because someone else shoves first and they run into as instead of you. Right, the butterfly effect. There's a lot of luck involved. Speaking of luck, Versus said, do you have any thoughts on the main event champion? Michael Musrochi. He's a very good and intimidating player. He also had a crazy run. I think Doug Polk ran the numbers and found like you're like ninety nine point ninth percentile luck and all ins. 00:05:28 Speaker 1: He did, he did, And there was one moment where I think he had won ten or eleven all ins in a row. Nate, that is so improbable, right, I think think back to, like, what's the greatest streak you've ever had in winning all ins? I think mine might be three, right, Like, I don't think I've ever won more than three all ins in a row like that. I tried to think about it, but ten is just it's insane. So he was he was running. You know, you can say someone runs pure, and that means that they win all of their all ins when they're ahead. He was running more than pure because he won the ones where he was behind, right, he actually ended up hitting his you know, lucky one card. And just to be clear that this doesn't take away anything from the fact that he's a really you know, tricky player, that he puts people in tough spots, that he played well as well. I'm not trying to detract from that, but it's really good to remember that you need to run like god right to win these But. 00:06:25 Speaker 2: He Yeah, so he one out of ten thousand people wins the main event, right, so if you run ninety nine out of one hundred in terms of luck and then ninety nine out of one hundred in terms of skill, and you could debate, but he's certainly pretty far up in the stratosphere, especially by the way for terment like the main event, where a lot of people are scared, where you're at the same table for a long time. Right, he is certainly making technical mistakes. But like you have not seen like the German Solver gto pros do that well in the main you see people like Michael do well because there's the intimation factor. There's a player reading factor, there's the fearlessness. So many people clam up and play like knits when you see anything beyond day five to six a main event coverage, right, and you. 00:07:07 Speaker 3: Can't have that. 00:07:08 Speaker 1: You can't accuse the grind of being a lot, but a knit is not one of those facts. And by the way, for people who weren't watching, not only did he win the main event, he for the fourth time won the fifty K Players Championship and immediately after winning the main event was inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame. That has never happened before, so he became. 00:07:29 Speaker 2: Usually has to die for them to like like if someone dies, like accelerate in baseball, they're through the Hall of Fame. 00:07:34 Speaker 1: So it was quite quite the year for him. And you know, I I just to if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't think he was the technically best player at the final table. I don't think he was. He was number one, But in terms of his intuition, in terms of his presence, and in terms of just like he was on a roll. And you can't you can't. You can't underestimate that, right, Like there are this is true in sports, true, like we just to like branch out a little bit. We've talked on the show before about the hot hand fallacy, where then it turned out, you know that the hand fallacy is actually a fallacy in itself because it's not a fallacy in certain situations, including in places like poker, where like that sort of aura and that sort of mindset can actually affect how other people play, right, Like, if you think I'm invincible right now, then people will play differently against you, and you can't fake it, by the way, like this is something that has to come comes from somewhere else and people so people do get hot hands, right, And it's not that the odds change, it's that Nate. You know, last week on the show, we talked about butterfly effect. You just mentioned it here, But it's that the different those different things on the margin shift a tiny bit enough to put the odds more in your favor and you end up kind of doing better than you otherwise would. And I think that that's a really really powerful factor that we shouldn't underestimate. 00:09:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's tricky against the player? I mean, look, you know this this more with like intermediate players and someone like miss Rahi, right, but by day four of a big tournament, especially the main event. Everyone has run well to get to day four. Some people are playing with a lot more confidence for the most part, and it's routine to see people who have a lot of chips make one or two loose plays that they probably shouldn't make, but aren't that bad, then take a bad beat and then tilt right. 00:09:32 Speaker 1: It's funny. I've seen kind of your player rating sheet, which I think is amazing. I'm not quite that systematic about it, but I do always when I look up players, one of the things I do is I look at their most recent results, right, and I think, oh, this person, like he has X in earnings, but he just came in second in the Millionaire Maker, right, so he just had this insane score that is going to matter, right, Like that is actually something that you should be looking at. You shouldn't just be looking at what are the total earnings? How long have you been playing? Sure that matters? How have you been doing recently? Right? Did you have a huge score? Did you have a huge score yesterday? Like where is your head at? And how are you going to be playing differently as a result? And I think that that actually makes a really big difference. 00:10:20 Speaker 2: We saw that, right, Someone who you know has been at the World Series for a month and they have two small catch from Prisco, right, yep. Unless they had some family incident in the in between, they're probably going to be not the invest mentality yep. 00:10:32 Speaker 1: I think that those are really important things to take into consideration when you do your kind of decision making calculus. And it's good to remember. This is why you know, solvers are great and all, but there are when you're playing live poker, they are all these other factors that have to go into your decision tree. This is true of all, you know, all decisions like you just need to take the full situation into account. People who can do that well end up doing well. I think the grinder is someone who is very good at kind of sizing people up. Even though I doubt Nate that he looked anyone up on handed Mob or did any research on his opponents, he just has a good, you know, presence, and he's able to do things like that. Laomarchet's someone who is very intuitive at the table. I think we could see that. So I think that these are just important things, important things to note, important things too, to keep in mind. Nate. One more thing about the World Series. A few weeks back, we remember we had listener Tim Senstock on the show. He was going to be coming out to the World Series, and we talked to him in June, gave him some pointers about the events he was going to play, and I actually ran into him in the World Series in the hallway at some point. Yeah, I gave I gave him a hug, and he seemed in good spirits. And then afterwards we did check in to see how his World Series went, and yeah, he wrote us back. So remember, Nate, you and I weren't too enthusiastic about the Ultra Stack because the structure is actually quite bad, right, but you know, there are good things about it. So he ended up playing that. He ended up playing both day once. He did last for a good chunk of the day, but busted both days just before Cashing. After dinner, he says he did really well in Cash though, so he ended on a positive note, Nate. So Tim did better than you and I did. He ended his World Series in the black, whereas you and I ended in the red. And he said that some of the tips we gave him, like, you know, not worrying about the clock playing his own game. I think that he says that it helped him. I hope it did, and I hope next year he's able to do well, not only at the cash tables but also in the tournaments. 00:12:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, isidated like to have a few more reps for these tournaments. I mean, the thing that's unique about poker is that you are thrown into the frying pan sometime and you least expect it, right, Poker never quite goes. It's not a tame beast. 00:12:57 Speaker 1: No, no, it isn't. Sometimes you've got a good game plan and then you know, Mike Tyson comes in, sucks you and the job there, It all goes, It all goes out the window. Nate, good luck to the two of us next year at the World Series, and you know I'll be at Barcelona. You will not be, but hopefully, you know, hopefully we will run well and play well in whatever we undertake next. Let's have some of that ten all ins in a row. Luck rub off on us. So congratulations to everyone. I hope everyone had a good World Series. And with that, Nate, let's take a break and talk to Leo Margett's Nate and I are so excited to welcome a very special guest, Leo Marrigettes, who has become the first woman in thirty years to make the final table of the WSOP main event. This really is a historic event, no matter what some people on Twitter may say, and we are so. I was so excited to talk to her about it, to talk about her run, and just in general talk some poker and some historic achievements. Welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you. 00:14:20 Speaker 4: Thank you, Maria, thank you. Yeah. 00:14:22 Speaker 1: So Leo. You and I I think I met you right away when I started playing poker back back, you know, six years ago, but you'd been playing already forever, and I was like, wow, she's she's done so much, So why don't you just start off by telling us kind of what this year means to you and kind of in the scope of your poker career, because you've been playing for over a decade years. 00:14:44 Speaker 4: That was my siventing seven. 00:14:45 Speaker 1: Oh my god, almost two decades. 00:14:47 Speaker 4: That's yeah, I'm a nine ers. 00:14:50 Speaker 5: It was my seventeenth main event every year scenes two thousand and nine. 00:14:55 Speaker 1: Wow, Nate, how many main events have you played? 00:14:58 Speaker 3: I played nine? 00:14:59 Speaker 2: I think my first film was in two thousand and nine or eleven. 00:15:04 Speaker 3: But I skipped I skipped it. 00:15:05 Speaker 1: By all right. So Leo, Nate and I together have played fewer main events that you that you have played by yourself. 00:15:14 Speaker 5: When I say I've played seventeen to many events, it looks so alien to me, you know, likes if I don't relate because I have I'm zero burnout with poker. 00:15:24 Speaker 4: I love the game. I love intrinsically the game. 00:15:26 Speaker 5: Like, so that motivation or that drive was the one that didn't ever let me burn out. 00:15:34 Speaker 1: That's great. How did you you know during the main how did you make it so that, like your brain could stay focused as opposed to letting external things get to you, because it's so the main is hard. It's so long, right, if you go deep, it's so many days. 00:15:51 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's definitely an energy game. 00:15:54 Speaker 5: Maybe since twenty eighteen, I usually do an extent every long series, an extent where I at the end of the day, I rank myself on whatever for categories like goals in mind, focused, technical skills, and then it's very interesting to see how ranking helps me stay in track, because like imagine you go to the gym and day one you can do ten reps with one hundred killers in squad. If you do that every day for a week, on day eight, you're one hundred percent without rest. 00:16:29 Speaker 4: No way is going to be ten reps with one hundred killers. 00:16:33 Speaker 5: And physically we all see it, but mentally it's not so easy to see unless we note it, because you might think on day eleventh of as series, online or life, you can tell to yourself, being honest, no, I'm giving my one hundred percent. So you feel chill because you think, yeah, I'm doing my one hundred percent, but you're one hundred percent is a fraction of what can be. You're one hundred percent maybe sixty percent of what your potential one hundred percent can be. 00:17:01 Speaker 4: So this extral helps me a lot because. 00:17:04 Speaker 5: When I start having sevens in my grades, I just take a day off and it helps. The next day I improved so much. 00:17:12 Speaker 1: Uh. 00:17:12 Speaker 5: And then also I realized that it was a good idea for me to write my goals as if my ideal LEO, what will my idea LEO? 00:17:23 Speaker 4: Do you know? 00:17:25 Speaker 5: Accepting, I discovered that to play well, I need to have fun in the table. And this together with what I was dealing with writing my goals and thinking that I wanted to be the only one validating my decisions. You know, like as long as I could explain to myself why I was doing something, I don't care about external people judging. 00:17:46 Speaker 4: There will always be people judging. 00:17:49 Speaker 5: And yeah, that made it actually easy because it was like I was approaching every day with zero expectations and zero of fear and like zero fear of basting, zero fear gero anxiety to win. It was just Okay, I'm going to focus on every hand the best I can. I'm gonna have fun, I'm gonna take my time to make every decision, and. 00:18:16 Speaker 4: I'm super happy because I was. 00:18:18 Speaker 5: I mean, this is I think that my biggest accomlument I was the leo I would have liked to be in that in a spot like this, right that. Of course, you even when you read the final table, you think, okay, I'm very calm, but still I was ready to experience some nerves. And I mean I did have beat, but it was nerves. 00:18:40 Speaker 1: I was. 00:18:41 Speaker 5: I was where I wanted to be, So it was such a nice experience. 00:18:46 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one thing you realize, right, and I have not made it nearly as deep as you Leo. I have had to stay six and day five in the past couple of years. The nerves build, at least for normal people. Maybe you're not normal, right, for normal people, and I think even all that, like the top people who have like made multiple final ties before, Right, there's some point at what you're playing poker for more money than you ever have or perhaps ever will, right, you know? For me, I think kind of the inflection point comes at like day four at the dinner break, where you're in the money now a lot of people are busted and you're like, okay, ninety three percent of people have been a limit for this tournament. All my friends I usually get dinner with are gone playing some other event. Right, how are you dealing with the increasing stress? Are you trying to put it out of your mind? Are you trying to get in a zone where you channel it in some ways? But what's And you had a deep run in a while ago, like two thousand and nine, right, did that help? How were your coping mechanisms? 00:19:54 Speaker 5: I guess well, I did run my first ever main event, and I am so grateful that I had the chance to improve from all the things I did back back By then, like a just being a look in. 00:20:09 Speaker 4: The phone the day before and being very. 00:20:15 Speaker 5: Susceptable you have, even to the comments and getting all these dopamine rush from everyone saying stuff. So I was so happy to be able to do things better after they six, not opening Instagram anymore, not taking the phone, just proactively texting whoever I wanted. I texted my parents and said, hey, I'm alive. I'm actually doing very well. Don't worry for me and the rest. 00:20:42 Speaker 4: I have to say I didn't feel any pressure. 00:20:46 Speaker 5: I know people think I might, you know, like because it was such a dibra and long time since a women didn't do it. 00:20:53 Speaker 4: But I didn't feel any pressure I had. 00:20:57 Speaker 5: I just wanted to give my best right and the challenge really was that once I made the main event. I once I made the final table, it was a bitterly for many people, even for myself. I felt so happy, but at the same time, it was not done. I mean, it actually just started. I get the goosebumps when I say it, because but the feeling that everyone's was already celebrating it was a bit contradictory because you also wanted to relax and think wow, so good. 00:21:29 Speaker 4: But then. 00:21:32 Speaker 5: I had the fucking incredible chance in my life to be in a spot where you know, you can do super big, even if it was already very good. And I remember having a chat the night before Adri and Steph and talking to them and and Adrid said, do you know you can win this thing? Right? And it's like and then he said, and you know you can win this thing and you can bust first hand. And these words didn't fail overwhelming. It felt, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna play this. I'm gonna do my best, you know. And happily I don't have any regrets even if I had, because it could happen, you know, pressure whatever. I could have had regrets on how I played, I'm very happy that I don't. 00:22:17 Speaker 4: But I was even ready to make. 00:22:19 Speaker 5: Mistakes if you know, I can give my best and still make some mistakes. But I I am happy with the play, with how I plate, with how I handle the situation. So yeah, just like incredibly grateful also to share it, like with my close friends that were there, with my team, with the community, because after everything passed, I realized, how, you know, how much people had been routing and it's so cool to be in a spot where you want. 00:22:49 Speaker 4: You could feel the energy. 00:22:50 Speaker 5: I could feel Michael's mom like on my way to the final table, she just said, oh, you know, my heart is divided because my son is also there. 00:22:59 Speaker 4: But I you know, this kind of stuff, this kind of like we all have people in our lives. I reflect better than that. 00:23:09 Speaker 5: We all have people in our lives that loves us or support us. But it's not that gom on to be that lives pood in us both where people can show you they're support and their love in sata granibre. 00:23:25 Speaker 1: Way, something that you said earlier. I just want to point out for for everyone because I think it's so important and people forget it. You could tell watching the final table, like watching the runs, like you could tell the whole time like there were people who were, you know, just super focused, which obviously like it's a main event, it's good, but you were all you were playing well, but you were having a blast and you could actually feel that energy. And I think that that's so important to remember. I mean, poker is a phenomenal way to learn how to think better. Right. It is such like a It is an incredibly powerful, you know, mental tool, all of these things, but it's also a game, right, It's also supposed to be fun, and I think people lose sight of that, and I wonder, you know, I would love to think that part of your exceptional performance was due to the fact that you had a blast, right, that you were actually enjoying yourself. 00:24:19 Speaker 5: Well, because I don't know other people, but I also I mean, in poker can be tool also to know yourself better, right exactly exa absolutely for me this year, and it's been seventeen years that I've been playing at this more seriously, I realized, I give my best when I'm having fun, and at the end, we are lucky enough to put our time and energy and effort into a game, and yeah, what are games for? 00:24:45 Speaker 4: Like Like, I in the same way that when I trained. 00:24:47 Speaker 5: In the gym, I enjoy I have fun and that's why, probably why I stick to it. With poker is the same, like it was so different. I don't think I've ever had so much fun. And in a way, there was a couple of hours that I didn't have any. 00:25:00 Speaker 6: Fun from ninety hours of play, no, and then I went when I was not having fun, I went again to rushing decisions. 00:25:11 Speaker 5: I remember a hand with with Michael, I just snapped folded to avoid the uncomfortability, me not having fun, me not having fun, embracing uncomfortable spots. Hey, poker is gonna bring you uncomfortable spots. 00:25:27 Speaker 4: You know. 00:25:29 Speaker 5: In the beginning of the series, I was so much in the mood that I even wanted to experience those uncomfortable situations because it's gonna happen if you avoid them. You know, it's impossible you perform well because it's like it doesn't happen. You know, you cannot just seek easy sports or easy decisions. So I just needed to switch my mind and say, hey, let's embrace and comfort. I was almost curious and looking forward to get those uncomfortable spots that come from playing poker, especially in high level, lead level. You know, like you're gonna accept it. You're gonna go through on comfortable spots, and you need to deal with them and done with them, because if you just asking them one of the time, okay. 00:26:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're never gonna learn. You know. I love that you're pointing out the importance of taking your time. This is something I need to work on as well, because I'm a fast player. I make quick decisions. I don't like tanking. I don't like when people tank, Like you know, I'm one of those people who calls the clock. And but it's something that like, sometimes I've made big mistakes because I've acted too quickly. And I think that sometimes, you know, it's easy to kind of just snap full snap, you know, just just make those quick decisions because you think. But something that you that you said, even though like just to make sure that you're not missing something, just to kind of think it through. I think that in poker and in life, we often don't write. We we often don't take the time to just make sure and instead we just act. And I think that that's just such an important reminder that I'm glad that that was something that that you've brought up explicitly. 00:27:10 Speaker 4: As you said, it also happened to me when it was one of my leaks. 00:27:13 Speaker 5: It was one of the columns I raised myself for today because I leak on that sometimes it's not playing too fast, and I know some of the mistakes I made worse because of that, because I believe I can think well right like I can have Obviously, as I said, I don't know anything, and there's always so much time, that's so much. 00:27:34 Speaker 4: Room for improvement. 00:27:35 Speaker 5: But at least if I make a mistake, is I want it to be because there's something I don't know, not because it's something I could have got there if I just allowed myself a couple more minutes to think. 00:27:46 Speaker 2: Yeah, that gap between the kind of idealized leo and the actual one. Because we've all had hands as poker players, but everybody, right, I assume that like in the moment, you're like, boy, if I were a really good player, I would fold this hand, or if I were a really good player, I would turn this hand into a bluff. And you're tired, and you and you don't do it right, and you kind of know you're not doing it, and like somehow you're not capable of like just pushing your hand in a different motion. Did you have a big stack early in the main or when did you start to like think I can make the final table. 00:28:19 Speaker 3: Never? 00:28:20 Speaker 5: I just well, I was focusing on every hand, and that's the good thing. 00:28:24 Speaker 4: I didn't have any expectations. The expectation the goal. 00:28:28 Speaker 5: Is not honestly, and that's why I'm more like proud about it, because I didn't really thought I'm going to make finance they want, so all of a sudden we weren't in the final dayment and I'm like. 00:28:38 Speaker 1: That's great, So do you I mean obviously people will you know, talk about this. It is kind of a historic moment, you know, first time in thirty years, first time in the modern era. Not to take anything away from Barbara and right, but making it through like two hundred players is very different from making your through ten thousand players, right, It's a totally different game. So do you are you know, for others it's a big deal for you, Like, now that it's over, is this a big deal? Is it going to change kind of how you what you're doing going forward? Or was it just one more tournament that you went deep in and now it's kind of on to the next. 00:29:15 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, onto the next. 00:29:18 Speaker 5: But enjoying the experience, right, Like I think we've all dreamed of that, and all of a sudden I was living what we all dreamed. Like I want to enjoy sugary, right, But I don't feel like, you know, you get all these now you represent now all the women fighting, I think this is a bit alien to me. Like I'm super glad if someone being women men whatever can feel inspired by what I did or feels good. 00:29:45 Speaker 3: But I. 00:29:48 Speaker 4: Don't dare to say. 00:29:49 Speaker 5: I represent all the women that you know play poker, and no I mean dry like I think we represent ourselves. It's individual represents themselves. But at the same time, I feel very honored that someone can get inspired and regarding. 00:30:07 Speaker 4: Life is going to change to be hones. I feel less. 00:30:10 Speaker 5: Motivated to play one to play one case. But besides that, No, I'm not gonna start playing tryon. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take a year of I'm not I'm just gonna. 00:30:22 Speaker 4: I'm just gonna keep grinding as I did. 00:30:24 Speaker 3: You know. 00:30:25 Speaker 5: I love I'm lucky that I love the game. I love putting time into getting better. I am very well surrunded also, and I think it's key or to be able to talk hands and talk think poker, which is also very lucky. 00:30:38 Speaker 4: I'm not it's not gonna change much. 00:30:41 Speaker 2: By the way, the day that there's a daybreak before the final table, right, how did you spend that time? Were you prepping, were you taking care of friends, were you sleeping? Were you having a really nice day by the pool or what did you do? 00:30:58 Speaker 5: I tried, and I took it as another day of the main event, but without cards. 00:31:04 Speaker 4: But my approach was, this is not a day off, this is a. 00:31:08 Speaker 5: Day of of mainland, but we are just not playing with cards. 00:31:13 Speaker 4: So I stick to my routine. I slept. Can you believe this is crazy? 00:31:18 Speaker 5: Can you believe that the day I slept better was of all vera I slept fucking nine hours was the day before the final table? 00:31:27 Speaker 1: Now I can't believe that. 00:31:29 Speaker 7: I cannot believe it thither, but that's how Sid I was and happy to be her right like it gave me, and it gave me also so much confidence the fact that I had slept so much, No, because it didn't what you know. 00:31:41 Speaker 5: But back to the day itself. I trained, I went for lunch, very chill. I didn't do much social I'm not I'm a bit introverted anyway, so I needed time and it was a day for myself a lot, I think. I went for lunch and then I had a meeting with Adri and Steph for a couple of hours, and then at eight o'clock I was having dinner by myself and I was left at nine thirty. 00:32:07 Speaker 2: So Maria and I you were actually our first desire to have on the show this week, more than the man who won the main event, Michael MSRAI. If he wants to come on, we'll happy you to have him on in a future week. What was it like to play against him? I mean, I mean again, yeah. 00:32:25 Speaker 4: You know, ah. I like his vibe. 00:32:30 Speaker 5: He's so uncomfortable, he's so uncomfortable to being the table, which is the biggest compliment, right that someone can tell you. And I think at some points he was speaking on me. I could see how he played, and I know he was speaking on me to be extra aggressive because he was putting so much bluffs then needed on Hans versus me and instead cutting himself on bluffs against for example, other people, which you know, like it's poker, right, and it worked, and. 00:33:00 Speaker 4: I just I don't know. Some people we didn't talk much, but some people just the. 00:33:04 Speaker 5: Vibe you like it, and I liked his vibe. 00:33:09 Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. By the way, for people who don't realize that when you're talking about Adre on your rail, that's Adrian Matteos, who is one of the best, if not the best, tournament players in the world. So you definitely had like one of the best minds in poker by your side and helping you through this. Just to add Tonate's question, did you guys talk all about the dynamic you know with the grinder? Did you talk about specific players and specific exploits or not? 00:33:38 Speaker 5: Did you just kind of this threatenedy? You know, he was so cool, like he was super nice. He told me I could any doubt, I could write him any moment of the day. It was I felt really supported by all the team, but yeah, especially by by Adri And we talked more about the spot, right, like being in a spot could be so overwhelming that he so I had confidence. So it was very good because the things we talked it just work to validate my approach to the day. 00:34:09 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, it was It's not just inspiring because of how far you went, but just how you played right. It's it's good to watch that and to see someone succeed while having a smile, while having a good time and not being scared. Right, like you you put it out there, like you ran big bluffs, like you made big calls, like you you actually you know sure, like you can think back to the ninth hand, but like forget it like that happens happened, right, shit happens like we all we've all been in that the. 00:34:38 Speaker 5: Less word you are about making mistakes, like the less a perfectionists you become, the more toolet and you are with mistakes. 00:34:47 Speaker 4: Paradoxically, the less mistakes you do right. 00:34:50 Speaker 1: Well, do you have so you know, for everyone listening and for for everyone who followed your journey, do you have any kind of parting words of wisdom you've already shared so much or anything that you want you want to kind of things. 00:35:02 Speaker 2: To promote person? 00:35:07 Speaker 5: Now that's like, I really you want to say thank you again because I've even. 00:35:14 Speaker 4: Never felt so. 00:35:18 Speaker 5: Supportive, so supported with so many people asking my cards, like I felt the energy. 00:35:24 Speaker 4: And also this is so much nicer shared right like. 00:35:30 Speaker 5: And in the same way that you know you you try not to take two serious comments from people you don't know, because when it's bad, you know you wouldn't you wouldn't accept an advice. 00:35:44 Speaker 4: From these people. 00:35:46 Speaker 5: So it's good to keep that this that these times also when the feedback is good, because something I like a lot to think in bad moments, it's applicable for now. 00:35:56 Speaker 4: No like these two show pass right like, now you are a super hero. Now everything is good bad. You know, at the end of the day, I'm. 00:36:05 Speaker 5: So much more than just a playing, which I think at the same time is good because I don't create my identity from playing. And I think this is a good advice for in general, but for players, for for people that play for fun, for people that play. I mean, I don't like to give advice because it's a bit like oh and so listened advice, But since you asked, I think to to not link your identity with with your game is quite healthy mentally because you know, things go well, things go bad, you go through with you have super incredible differends and you are still you right and shouldn't be your results that validate you. 00:36:49 Speaker 1: That is a really wonderful message I think to to to remember to internalize, uh to to end on. And also like, I think it's one of the reasons why you ended up doing so well this year. So for I, Nate and I do not see you as being defined by your results. That said, congratulations on an incredible result. It's really it's really wonderful. It was a pleasure watching you, rooting for you, and we're so glad that we had the chance to have you on that. 00:37:18 Speaker 5: I had asked for time also in this tat and yeah, I hope to see you live running together the main um in Barcelona. 00:37:26 Speaker 1: Let's do it. So that was our conversation with Leo Marchettes. So let's take a quick break now and then we'll hear from Eric's sidell So today on the show, we've got a very special guest with us, a poker legend, Poker Hall of Famer, ten time World Series of Poker Bracelet winner. As of now we are recording this in May World Poker Tour title holder, EPT title holder, you know, Triple Crown winner, basically every title that exists. He has high roller extraordinaire. Welcome to the show, Eric's idel. 00:38:12 Speaker 3: That's a very generous intro. 00:38:15 Speaker 1: Well, and of course Eric's greatest claim to fame is teaching me how to play poker. It is, so Eric, let's you know, we're gonna talk a lot of poker and risk and all of that. But why don't we start off by just kind of going back to the beginning to you know, little Eric growing up, how did your interest in games and in poker even originate? How did you even get introduced to that world. Were you someone who was curious about it from a young age? Is it something that came later. 00:38:46 Speaker 3: I started playing back emmon when I was in high school, and then that led me to a place called the Game Room, which was on the Upper West Side, and then ended up going to the Mayfair, which was a well known back Ammon and bridge club in those days, and played back em in there for years, and a poker gamy ended up developing in the Mayfair. At the time. They didn't allow any pros in, which is very helpful to me because I was terrible, so I got to play with other people who are also terrible, and I would say it just slowly started to take over the Mayfair, and I mean eventually the Mayfair ended up being a poker club. 00:39:32 Speaker 1: Eric, So you kind of sort of played games professionally in the sense that you know, paid the bills. But then you had a little detour and you went to Wall Street, which is a gambling of a much gambler nature than poker. I would say, talk a little bit about kind of how your background in games prepared you for that and how you you know, how you ended up then transitioning back and playing poker full time, leaving Wall Street for a career that you know, many people would say, what are you doing? 00:40:05 Speaker 3: I do think it was a natural transition to go from playing games to Wall Street. And you see a lot of poker players now going out to Wall Street. But while I was working on Wall Street, I was also flying out to play cash games in Vegas. I didn't I didn't like being on Wall Street. I didn't like having to wear a tie, and there's there's a competitive and a pettiness there. And I didn't like trading on the floor where people are fighting for ones and twos and it was it's kind of an ugly environment and I really didn't like being part of it. I just felt like to be rewarded trading options on the floor, you really need to be a dick, you know, and and try and screw people over it. And that was basically that was what was being done to me. And it wasn't It didn't feel good. 00:40:57 Speaker 2: Our listeners might think, uh, boy, isn't poker kind of cut through? But there's like a kind of camaraderie among players. 00:41:07 Speaker 3: Most of the time. 00:41:08 Speaker 2: And Rick, you played in like some of the biggest, most famous games of all time. I mean, has that camaraderie lessened over the years as you kind of had more tourists and professionals, or I mean, what's what was this scene like when you're kind of young, young, skinny kid, I guess, and trying to get your feet wet in Vegas which you don't yet know that Well. 00:41:30 Speaker 3: It was fine because I knew enough people. And the nice thing about poker is you can. I mean, now it's changed a little bit where there are more private games in Vegas, but in those days, all the games were open and that was kind of part of the laws that you got to play if if you wanted to. It was it was competitive, but it was it was never unfriendly. I mean, it can be exhausting, but it's also I also really enjoy the environment. I like rooting for friends and things like that in. 00:42:04 Speaker 1: Terms of thinking about decision making and risk taking in really high stake situations and under bright lights, right when people are looking and people are watching how you're playing. Because these days, I know in the past this wasn't the case, but these days they're all streamed, right, so people know exactly how you're making decisions. How do you deal with that? Right, how do you keep executing at a high level after you've been playing for multiple days, You're tired, everyone's watching, and the stakes are so high because the payouts keep going and going up and the pay jumps are huge. And I feel like this is one of the things that might might be the most applicable to real life, because I think people always want to know, you know, how do I make good risk decisions when the stakes are the highest. 00:42:51 Speaker 3: If you're playing a tournament. One of the nice things about a tournament is that the further you go along, the more that's at stake. And I think that's helpful because now you're really rewarded for paying attention and bringing of this. And so I mean, I do think sometimes I have to remind myself to get back to just being present and being in being, you know, watching the action stuff like that, But it does. It is easier as you get closer to a final table or you get closer to a win, because there's just more at stake, and it's just it becomes more interesting. 00:43:34 Speaker 1: That's really interesting, Nate. Do you find that as well, just in poker and in life, because there I think it's true of me and in a certain respect that as kind of as the pressure builds, you actually perform better. Right, Because there are different people. There are people who kind of can't perform under pressure, and then there are people who do their best at kind of high stakes moments. And it seems like Eric is the high stakes performer. I'd like to think that I am too. How do you see it, Nate? 00:44:02 Speaker 2: I mean, I think you've made more deep runs in the past couple of years than I have, Maria. You know, like I have felt increasingly comfortable when the pressure does now, especially its like weaker fields, right where like, Okay, if I've made day threes a couple dozen times in my life and this is their second time, then I'm inexperienced relative to a lot of people. But you've been through that a little bit before. It also helps. I think I like when events are on TV because even though it adds some annoyances like what am I wearing? 00:44:32 Speaker 3: How do I look? 00:44:33 Speaker 2: I think it puts more pressure on other people by comparison. Yeah, because I'm not sure if people do better under pressure or that they do less bad than they choke less than others. Right, But yeah, look, I mean, Eric, how do you stay sharp? Right, Because let's say you're having a mediocre World Series and then finally after six weeks, right, you just barrel through a tournament, a big event, right, you're the chip leader. It's on to day four or something. I mean, what's your routine like during the series to to pace yourself or stay sharp or early above. 00:45:13 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, but the World Series, it's really just you're playing, you're eating, you're going to sleep. So it just there's no I mean, there aren't really. You just have to avoid distractions. It's funny because every year it comes around and you think, like, oh, good, so and Sound is going to be in town. Hopefully I'll get to have dinner with them or whatever. And it's just it's always a mistake to think that way because it's such an all immersive thing that you are. If you're not playing, you're in recovery and just you know, every date it goes like that for you know, for the whole world's here, it's six or seven weeks. Mario's smart because she takes a few days off and she'll you know, she'll go take a little mini vacation. I think that really helps. 00:46:00 Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I do always do that before the main event, because it really helps clear my mind and kind of get me out of any funk that I might be in. I find that that's very useful. And Eric, one of the things that I love, not just about the World Series, but just about your approach to poker in general, is that you're one of the only players I've met who is okay to end up missing an event that you had planned on playing, right, that you actually like in some ways. Obviously you're incredibly competitive, but in some ways you don't have ego in the moments where it matters, and you're okay to say, you know what, I'm not feeling up for it, or this field looks terrible, and even though I planned on playing this, you know, one hundred thousand dollars buy it or whatever it is, I'm not going to do that. And most players they'd feel their ego bruise, right, They're like, no, I can compete, you know in this, I'm going to play how you know? How are how are you thinking about those moments? Because you know it's that takes a lot of self knowledge and discipline to do that. 00:47:00 Speaker 3: Well. Yeah, I also have a no suffering rule. Stuff. I wake up and I'm just you know, and I'm tired. I just won't play if I'm dragged. It just it. I don't want to be unhappy at the table, and especially at an event like the World Series, where there are just so many events every day, you have to be very conscious of what kind of energy you can bring. 00:47:26 Speaker 1: No suffering rule, that's amazing. I think we should all implement that. If you wake up and you feel like this is going to be suffering, you just say. 00:47:34 Speaker 3: No, yeah, exactly are you trying to bracelet match? Are you trying to compete with No? I mean, I'm not one of those guys. I don't play that as many tournaments as the guys who are bracelet hunting. I feel like I have enough bracelets and I don't really have to chase them anymore. And it's also like it's one of these things where if you win one, it's some kind of mini miracle. I just don't like to think that way. I just want to play, Like, for instance, this summer, there's some cool tournaments at the WIN and I'll be playing those, you know, which are not bracelet events, but just you know, it's nice to play at the WIN and they run good tournaments. 00:48:18 Speaker 1: So nay, ten bracelets. Do we think that's enough? I think I think we. 00:48:22 Speaker 5: Need to know. 00:48:22 Speaker 2: I think thirteen bakers doesn't. 00:48:24 Speaker 3: Let's not be let's sucking. 00:48:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure, Eric, was there a moment when you're like poker has changed? When were there like inflection points that you remember? 00:48:35 Speaker 1: Well? 00:48:35 Speaker 3: At the main one really is computers coming into the game, and that's really changed things over the last I don't know, eight years. I'm not sure how long it's been, but it's really it just it has changed everything. I have a friend who jokes with me that I've been saying for about thirty years that the game is too tough and I need and I need to stop playing. But really, more recently, the computers have made it a much greater challenge, but it's still you know, it's made it's made it more difficult for me to play, but it's also made it more interesting and uh, and it is. It's fun to play against these computer guys and to and also to see how much the game has it evolved. So I enjoy being part of that and trying to figure things out in this more modern computerized the world. 00:49:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean you're you're still succeeding. Right at EPT Monte Carlo, you came in third in one of the high rollers. You've won several of your bracelets in the last few years, so clearly you're you're still able to compete at a high level. Do you you know, how do you prepare not just for the World Series but for series in general. Do you work with solvers kind of what does your what does your study routine look like? And has it changed significantly over the years. 00:50:01 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely changed a lot. I mean, it used to be you didn't really have to do anything. You just showed up and played, you know, which was really nice. It just it was a different time and there were some bugs, but the bucks really weren't that relevant to play. It was nice back then you could just you could just show up and play. And now, yeah, you have to study. You have to study solvers and study openings. It's you know, I think that there are people now who are completely immersed in it or studying and playing and that's kind of all they do. It creates, you know, an extra challenge to go up against people like that, but it's also you know, it's interesting and exciting and it's you know, it's fun. I feel like I'm as much a fan as I am a player, and you know, sit down at the table and I'll be like, Wow, these guys are just so good. This is really fun. You know, that's great. 00:50:58 Speaker 1: And I think that's probably one of the reasons why you're still so good, right is because you are. It's the ego thing again. You're you're learning from from others and you're kind of incorporating it into your game. I remember one hand, so a few years ago, I think it was Poker Go released some of the archives from like the earliest earliest World Series events, and they had some footage from nineteen eighty eight, so the famous World Series where you came in second to Johnny Chan and they they had footage of just at the final table before you guys were heads up, and I still remember you just going bananas with a small pocket pair right there was like a raise and a call and you had I think it was pocket four's and you just like gripped it. So talk about first of all, fearlessness and secondly, no one was doing that right like these days, you know that these make actually really good bluffs, But if you were looking at people's game back then that was just absolutely not done. Obviously, you were young, and you would say young and stupid. I'd say, you know, young, young and fear. But those plays like where did that come from? Was that just intuition patterns? Like what were do you? Do you remember how you thought of doing things that nobody had done before. 00:52:22 Speaker 3: I do remember I was very focused on reads and things like that, and I was I was pretty reckless, I think, you know, especially you know, if you talk about nineteen eighty eight, I didn't really know what I was doing and I was really but I do remember feeling like, this is really fun because you get reads from some of these players that I wasn't getting in the game back in New York, and it was like it was very exciting for me to think, Wow, I can play with these people and I didn't. I didn't have any any experience outside of New York. And it was. 00:52:59 Speaker 2: Were the reads fact in obvious or just that you have a knack for picking that up, or more experience or people better about avoiding tells now? 00:53:09 Speaker 3: I think they were more obvious back then, and I think people were less concerned about timing and patterns and things like that. So you know, it was just you know, everybody was kind of playing by the seat of their pants back then, so there really were a lot of opportunities. And also, you know, I just when you don't know what you're doing, you can really push things pretty far. Let's say it's the. 00:53:38 Speaker 2: First day of the main event. I assume you like the main Event, Eric, You're not one of these. 00:53:42 Speaker 3: I love the main Event. I hope I can play it every single year. I really get a kick out of it. It's day one. 00:53:50 Speaker 2: Maybe you're you, you have some media trailing you, but everyone assume everyone knows who you are at the table, right, how are you adjusting to that, right to being a known person where there might be some inhimidation factor. There are thousands of hours of you playing poker on tape, right, how do you adjust to, say, like a rank amateur playing against you versus like a nervous kid who looks up to you, versus like another another pro. 00:54:15 Speaker 3: I'm trying to play against each person individually, but I don't really feel like any kind of reputation or anything like that is going to is going to be helpful. It's like, I don't feel like there are those types of exploits where people will be more reluctant to play a hand with me because because they proceed me to be a good player or well known or whatever. I think, if anything, they might be more likely to play a hand because it's kind of fun for them, you know, to have a story to tell the people back home, So they might be a little bit more likely to try and bluff me that kind of thing. But I try and play it, you know, as straight as possible. 00:54:58 Speaker 1: So in some ways you've become Johnny Chan in rounders, where Matt Damon just wants to bluff you just to be able to say that he bluffed Johnny Cham. 00:55:09 Speaker 3: I think that exists. I really do think that exists. I remember being at a table with a world champion, uh in a in a big tournament, and he the guy raised him and he moved all in and he said to the guy, don't you want to, you know, play against the world champion. You know. The guy ended up calling and it was just it was so ridiculous. But I do think that goes through some people's minds, is so I think it does. It probably raises it raises the risk that somebody's gonna try and bluff you, uh, And I think that if it's televised, it's even more dramatic. I think people people don't want to be seen as somebody who's being bluffed on TV. And if they can bluff you on TV, then they have, you know, then then they can go back and be a hero in their own game. 00:56:03 Speaker 2: How much impact was there for you from losing the Immortalized by Rounders heads up match against Johnny Chang? Was that like, were you still happy the next morning because you got fucking second place? Or was it like do you have like lifelong regret for me to where are you on that spectrum? 00:56:21 Speaker 3: The funny thing about that is, to me, that's still one of my favorite tournaments ever, just because I was really at the very beginning of my career and I had no idea how my skills would be applied at the World Series. I had a couple of people in the game that encouraged me to go, but I had no confidence that I would that I was going to be a favorite in the World Series, or that I could go deep and to have that experience of going through those four days and you know, trying to outplay people and the whole thing I mean, it was amazing for me. I just I love that tournament still. I still have, you know, great feelings about that. To me, The fact that I lost is it's not really a big deal. You know, you win tournaments and you lose them, you know, I don't I really have good feelings about that, you know how you know, each day of that tournament, how fun it was to see like, hey, I'm playing with these guys, I'm doing well, you know, and I'm seeing some fun things I'm seeing, you know, I'm you know, finding some creative plays that you know, because you're just making things up as you go law And I think for me, at least, I was discovering a lot of things, you know at that time. 00:57:42 Speaker 1: Well, I think that that is a wonderful note to go out on, because that is that is kind of a peak accomplishment, even though you did not end up winning that bracelet. But do you have any you know, as I'm sure that a lot of poker players are listening to this or and aspiring poker players, do you want to leave? You know, the first question I ever asked you, I'm gonna I'm gonna end the interview with it, which is if you could tell one thing, kind of one piece of advice for for poker players who are either starting out or at any point in their journey. What would it be. 00:58:16 Speaker 3: Well, I remember I told you to pay attention, and I still think that applies because there's just there's so much information. I feel like people are teaching you how to beat them if you just pay enough attention to their patterns and and what they're doing. So if you're paying enough attention, then you know that that that's a big exploit. 00:58:38 Speaker 1: I think that those are those are wise words and very difficult. So phone bands, yay. 00:58:44 Speaker 2: I want to ask you one question about my co host. When you were coaching Maria, when did you think that she had real potential for the game. 00:58:53 Speaker 3: Maria was an exciting project. I mean just because she she came from nowhere. She she you know, she didn't know how many cards were in a deck. But I think what I mean what happened with her was she she just worked so hard and so that was that was really that's the key to how successful she was. Is she really she was interested, she was open minded, and she you know, and she was willing to put the work in. And for me, it's it's just it's really thrilling to see that she's still playing. I really, I really got to kick out of the fact that she's still playing and still doing well. I continues to do well, so it's fun to sweat her well. 00:59:36 Speaker 1: Thank you for your time today, and thank you for your time throughout our entire relationship, because you have given me more hours of your life than than anyone has any right to ask for. So thank you for joining us. This was an absolute pleasure, and. 00:59:55 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was all mine. I'm a fan of the pod. 00:59:59 Speaker 1: Thank you friend of the pod. Nate likes to call people friends of the pod, so thank you friend of the pod here. 01:00:05 Speaker 3: I know that's a big upgrade. I like it. 01:00:14 Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm. And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, we have some bonus content for you today. It's more from our interview with Leo Marjetz that's coming up right after the credits. 01:00:31 Speaker 2: And if you're not subscribing, what's wrong with you? Consider signing up For just six hundred and a month. You get access to that premium content and add free listening across Pushkin's entire network of shows. 01:00:40 Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanikova. 01:00:43 Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our associate producer is Sonia Gerwin. Sally Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 01:00:58 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for tuning in.