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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Christy Noam is offering teenage student

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Speaker 1: loan forgiveness if they sign up to be an Ice agent.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty dark. We have such a great show for

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Speaker 1: you today, The Lincoln Project z own Rick Wilson joins

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Speaker 1: us to discuss America giving Alaska back to Russia. It

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Speaker 1: could happen. Then we'll talk to Osita Weinevu about the

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Speaker 1: new book, The Right of the People, Democracy and the

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Speaker 1: case for a new American Founding.

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Speaker 2: But first the news, so Bali, there's a really interesting

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Speaker 2: pull out from Yahoo and you gov. That's a mixed

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Speaker 2: bag of good news for debs. It seems that what

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Speaker 2: we really have a problem is is that people are

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Speaker 2: very unhappy with the way the Dems electeds act, but

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Speaker 2: they will vote for them if they could just give

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Speaker 2: them a reason too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some good news. The good news is that

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Speaker 1: as bad as Democrats are, they're still the only choice

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Speaker 1: because Donald Trump is a corrupt criminal who likes to crime,

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Speaker 1: and so the good news is that's it. That's the

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Speaker 1: only bit of good news. If this holds, and my

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Speaker 1: guesses things are only going to get worse because they

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Speaker 1: just poured even more money into Ice, who's carrying around

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Speaker 1: little children who are putting people in jail. If this

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Speaker 1: holds a seven point lead, it will be enough for

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Speaker 1: them to flip the house in twenty sixteen. But let

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Speaker 1: me tell you a secret, They're still going to have

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Speaker 1: to find a candidate. But that's not today's problem. Today's

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Speaker 1: problem is let's flip the house so that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: can't cancel all the elections and do all the crazy

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Speaker 1: stuff that he wants to do. Jesse, what other crazy

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Speaker 1: stuff does Donald Trump want to do?

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Speaker 2: Oh, we got to get homeless people out of Washington, DC.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think we're just hours away from, as

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Speaker 2: we talked about in the last episode, that we have

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Speaker 2: to avenge balls carjacking. So sentence, I want to gouge

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Speaker 2: out my mouth for saying. So, we're gonna have Marshall

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Speaker 2: law in DC.

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Speaker 1: Trump is big into martial law. He's very into sending

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Speaker 1: in the troops. He loves a troop, he loves a

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Speaker 1: troop parade. He is my man. Look, can I tell

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Speaker 1: you a secret here? They keep doing this they did

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Speaker 1: in California, right, they brought in the National Guard. You

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Speaker 1: can bring in these people, but if there's nothing happening,

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Speaker 1: they just look at their phones and they play Candy

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Speaker 1: Crash and they have no place to sleep and you

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Speaker 1: have to feed them. So I don't know, maybe he

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Speaker 1: federalizes Washington, d C. I don't think he's going to

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Speaker 1: be able to do it. Again, one of the really

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Speaker 1: important things you have to remember about Trump is, like

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Speaker 1: these people, they move fast and break things. Part of

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Speaker 1: why they move fast is because they know a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff they're doing is not legit. So when time

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Speaker 1: is the enemy for a lot of this stuff. So

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Speaker 1: if he does something like this, it's just not going

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Speaker 1: to work, and the courts are going to throw it out.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm not saying the courts are

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Speaker 1: the bulwark against Trump is because as we've seen, as

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Speaker 1: much as anything they you know, the Supreme Court is

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Speaker 1: basically in Trump's pocket. You know, they made him the

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Speaker 1: god king Emperor. But this is stupid. It's not going

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Speaker 1: to work. Also, you know, I mean it's just you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that big Balls got carjacked, but you can't

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Speaker 1: dictate policy around that. Is that fair? I think that's fair.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's quite fair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, poor went out for big balls, m.

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Speaker 2: All these sentences that are uncharted territory for where I

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Speaker 2: ever thought it was had a good life. Anyway, speaking

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Speaker 2: of uncharted territory, can you imagine that another country's leader

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Speaker 2: is not really psyched about Trump talking about plans to

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Speaker 2: invade her country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're invading Mexico. Team and you know who's not

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Speaker 1: happy about it? Their president, Claudia Scheinbaum. Let me just

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Speaker 1: say one thing here. Basically he has all he wants

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Speaker 1: to do is go to war with Canada and Mexico.

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Speaker 1: They don't get the kind of good treatment that Vladimir

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Speaker 1: Putin and Benjamin Yette Yahoo, both of whom are complete criminals. Gat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems about right.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is particularly said as a way

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Speaker 2: to destruct away from the fact that mister Trump is

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Speaker 2: pictured with Jeffrey Epstein more pictures than I have with

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Speaker 2: my family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, well that's your fault for not knowing, Jeffrey,

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Speaker 1: jeff that that's on you, baby.

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Speaker 2: Not everybody could have a photographer follow them around and

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Speaker 2: take party pictures all day with their friends.

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Speaker 3: So it's a life.

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Speaker 1: It is a life. And you know, I just want

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Speaker 1: to say, for all of you young folks listening to

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Speaker 1: this podcast, if you think someone's a sex predator, don't

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Speaker 1: take pictures with them.

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Speaker 3: All right, Really, that's good advice.

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Speaker 1: You're at a very good party. I have, in fact,

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Speaker 1: on my kids that I basically that's the only really

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Speaker 1: good parenting thing I've said to them, is like, if

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Speaker 1: you're at a party and you think the person is

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Speaker 1: a sex criminal, don't pose with them. Be careful who

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Speaker 1: you take pictures with, and never go on Jeffrey Epstein's chat.

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Speaker 2: So, Molly, this is a crazy, crazy statistic. Almost two

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Speaker 2: million Americans are collecting unemployment, which is like the highest

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Speaker 2: it's been since the heat of the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just wait, but the good news is we're

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Speaker 1: not going to have any immigrants here. So that's great

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Speaker 1: because that means that the jobs, all those jobs picking

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Speaker 1: fruit in the fields, those jobs, Americans can have those jobs.

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Speaker 1: They never want it. So let's see how this goes, team.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's only going to get worse and by

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Speaker 1: the way, more unemployment. And also, in case you're wondering,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be both more unemployment and higher tariffs.

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Speaker 1: So you're going to spend average family twenty five hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars a year more because of tariffs, So talk about inflation.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he basically is just put in a flat

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Speaker 1: tax to punish everyone.

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Speaker 4: Yep, that's about right.

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project and

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Speaker 1: the host of the Enemy's List. Rick Wilson, OLLI joungg fast.

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Speaker 1: It's all happening today.

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Speaker 3: It really is.

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Speaker 4: It's always happening. And we're about to give Alaska back

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Speaker 4: to Russia or something this weekend. You never can't tell.

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Speaker 1: So let's just talk about this second. So basically, Steve

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Speaker 1: Wikoff's translator translated something wrong. And now we're giving Alaska.

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Speaker 4: I mean, folks, just so y'all know we're joking about

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Speaker 4: giving Alaska back. But it's not out of the question.

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Speaker 1: It's unlikely, but it's not likely.

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Speaker 4: But it's just but it's not but it's not The

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Speaker 4: chance of it isn't zero.

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Speaker 1: So real talk. Donald Trump said he would end the

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Speaker 1: war in Ukraine on day one. It is now two

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Speaker 1: hundred plus plus plus. The war in Ukraine seems no

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Speaker 1: closer to ending. Vladimir Putin has completely won against Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: which way to Sunday.

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Speaker 4: Right. Look, I mean, one of the things that's going

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Speaker 4: on here is we have a guy who is one

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Speaker 4: of the greatest war criminals of the twentieth or the

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Speaker 4: twenty first century certainly, who is right now being invited

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Speaker 4: to American territory in Alaska getting he's gonna be treated

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Speaker 4: with kid gloves by Donald Trump, and Trump's desperation to

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Speaker 4: get a Nobel prize, a Nobel Peace prize, which which

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Speaker 4: I do have to just advise all of you Trumpers

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Speaker 4: out there. Donald Trump could negotiate a peace treaty with

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Speaker 4: the with the with the Gray Aliens, and it's stilling happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just say two things here. Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: got a lot of shit, and that should be like

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's that that should be like, you know,

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Speaker 1: that should be on a cake. Joe Biden got a

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Speaker 1: lot of shit, Yes, because he did. He got a

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Speaker 1: lot of shit. But he really got a lot of shit.

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Speaker 1: And I think rightfully so for getting railroaded by both

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Speaker 1: Nant Yahoo and Putin. But it's interesting to watch Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump get railroaded by both net Yahoo and Putin, Like

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Speaker 1: it is obvious that these two characters have now this

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Speaker 1: is the second US president that they are just basically

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Speaker 1: completely just having their way with.

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Speaker 4: Well. Look, I mean, let's let's be real here. W

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Speaker 4: got rolled by Putin too when he said, oh I

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Speaker 4: looked in his eyes and I can see his soul

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Speaker 4: or something like that. Yeah, if you saw anything in

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Speaker 4: his eyes, it's a yawning chasm of pure evil sport

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Speaker 4: right exactly. This moment we're about to have in Alaska

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Speaker 4: this week is so humiliating for the US, and the

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Speaker 4: Russians are trolling the shit out of him right now

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Speaker 4: because they know how humiliating it is that. You know,

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Speaker 4: they're they've they've always been telling their people like, we're

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Speaker 4: going to take Alaska back someday. What do you think

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Speaker 4: you know? The symbolism of this is where do you

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Speaker 4: think this idea to meet in Alaska came from? I

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Speaker 4: will bet you ninety nine times out of one hundred

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Speaker 4: it came from Russia.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about this Trump getting rolled by Putin and

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Speaker 1: also by net Yahoo. He said there was a net

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Speaker 1: Yaho then called him up and yelled at him. Anyone

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Speaker 1: who's had a Jewish mother knows exactly how this goes like.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny because I mean, I guess we're not

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Speaker 1: supposed to say this, but as a Jew, I feel

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Speaker 1: well within my rights. He said, oh my god, those

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Speaker 1: children are starving, which is what everybody said when they

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Speaker 1: saw those pictures of the starving children, and Net Yahoo

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Speaker 1: called them up and was like, no, you didn't see

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Speaker 1: starving children. And Trump was like, okay, I mean he

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Speaker 1: doesn't care, but it can't be said enough, Like how

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Speaker 1: this fucking thing is still going on is just as

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Speaker 1: we say in Judaism as shanda.

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Speaker 4: Look, this space level of not being able in American

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Speaker 4: politics to separate the people of Israel from Bibi Net

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Speaker 4: and Yahoo, I think has broken a lot of people

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Speaker 4: in this country politically for decades because bb net and Yahoo.

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Speaker 4: I hate to bring it to y'all. He's a bad guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just like trying.

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Speaker 4: He's a bad guy. He is, and he's doing a

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Speaker 4: lot of things that Trump like wants.

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Speaker 1: To would like to do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he fired the Attorney general of Israel. Why because

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Speaker 4: Bibi Nan Yahoo is the is the target of a

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Speaker 4: long running and corruption probe that makes a lot of

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Speaker 4: Trump's corruption look like the most sophisticated byzantine plotting in

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Speaker 4: the world. I mean BB's in the sort of like

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Speaker 4: like the good newscases of cash kind of corruption.

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Speaker 1: Right. The good news for gold Bars right, The good

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Speaker 1: news for Trump is that he does not ever have

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Speaker 1: to fire Pambondy because there's no world in which Pam

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Speaker 1: Bondy is doing anything that is independent of what he

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Speaker 1: tells her to do.

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Speaker 4: Molly, that is one hundred percent correct. No universe exists

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Speaker 4: where Pambondi does not first ask for permission before she

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Speaker 4: does anything anything.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk for a minute about a meeting that

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Speaker 1: happened with jd Vance, Pam Bondy who who even knows

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Speaker 1: who else about the Cash Dollar Patel cash battal and

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Speaker 1: in it they were trying to help the American people

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Speaker 1: help themselves by not making it so their boss had

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Speaker 1: to worry about Jeff app anymore. So talk us through

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Speaker 1: what you think happened.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so these people got together. They were supposed to

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Speaker 4: have a meeting at the Naval Observatory, the Vice President's

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Speaker 4: residence yesh is very lovely, by the way, if you've

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Speaker 4: never been there, it's very lovely.

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Speaker 1: And what vice president were you there with? Again?

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Speaker 4: Remind me, Oh, you know the Lord of Darkness, the

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Speaker 4: Prince of Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, but long.

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Speaker 4: In the short of it is that this meeting came

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Speaker 4: to Trump's attention and he flipped his shit because it

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Speaker 4: was being held outside of his normal personal purview and

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Speaker 4: his channels. He wants everything that happens regarding his good

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Speaker 4: buddy Jeffrey Epstein to be within ear shot of him,

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Speaker 4: and this was going to be out of his immediate eyesight. Now,

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Speaker 4: everybody at that everybody at that meeting, with one exception,

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Speaker 4: is an unquestioned loyalist to Donald Trump. But the one

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Speaker 4: exception is a big exception, and that is there is

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Speaker 4: still some suspicion about JD. Vance inside Trump's brain and

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Speaker 4: his world, just because he had the unforgivable sin in

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Speaker 4: the past of opposing Trump.

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Speaker 1: JD Vance raised the Ohio River Vance JD.

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Speaker 4: Yes, JD Vance River riser. JD Vance sort of a

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Speaker 4: elateral version or vertical version of Moses. Instead of partying

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Speaker 4: the river, he raised the river.

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Speaker 1: It feels very Marie Antoinette.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it feels so, it feels so let them eat catfish.

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Speaker 4: It is so arrogant and weird, and and look, this

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Speaker 4: guy's been on vacation almost the entire time he's been

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Speaker 4: vice president. He's never off of vacation.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because remember didn't they go? Where did they go?

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Speaker 1: Where they went?

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Speaker 4: They went out to somewhere the Rockies, they went out

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Speaker 4: to California. They're in the Cotswolds right now.

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Speaker 1: Oh good, I'm glad. I was hoping they'd have fun.

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Speaker 1: You know, it is true. Between those guys, and then

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Speaker 1: you have Christy Nome riding horses with remember.

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Speaker 4: That with her boyfriend in Argentina. They do seem to

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Speaker 4: get a lot of vacations.

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Speaker 1: It's good. I'm just glad they're having fun.

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Speaker 4: Listen, Listen, I don't blame people for taking vacations. I'm

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Speaker 4: taking one coming up at the end of this month.

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Speaker 1: Tell us more. Where are you going?

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Speaker 4: We're going to the Cotswolds actually, and to London. But

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Speaker 4: I promise you I will not raise or to lower

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Speaker 4: the levels of any rivers while I'm there. Well, normal

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Speaker 4: would be on the taxpayer's dime.

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Speaker 1: No, And I mean, I do think it is worth

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Speaker 1: remembering that these people really are using the presidency for

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Speaker 1: and the Office of the Presidency and all of the

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Speaker 1: things that are meant to be used to serve the

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Speaker 1: American people, to serve themselves.

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Speaker 4: The griftiness is now the point for a lot of this.

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Speaker 4: They're gonna milk this thing dry molly until the last

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Speaker 4: possible minute when they are drag kicking and screaming out

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Speaker 4: of the White House. You know they're going to be dragged,

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Speaker 4: kicking and screaming because this is the best gig any

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Speaker 4: of them has ever had, or will ever.

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Speaker 1: Help, will ever have. So speaking of which, Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: knows he's going to lose, right, He knows that these

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Speaker 1: midterms are going to be bad for him. He can

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Speaker 1: see the he can see his polling, and so he's

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Speaker 1: trying to get Texas to make it so he won't

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Speaker 1: lose his election. This is such an interesting thing because

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Speaker 1: it really is. You know, you have Abbott and Paxton

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Speaker 1: who are in like and Cornyn who are in a

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Speaker 1: goal to become the biggest Trump Trump be Sickophan. But

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Speaker 1: this special session, as long as they stay out of

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Speaker 1: the state until August nineteenth, which is my birthday, God

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Speaker 1: help us all, I will be twenty six. As long

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Speaker 1: as they stay out of the state, they can you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they can just keep doing that, right, yeah.

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Speaker 4: And look, I want to make one thing clearer, and

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Speaker 4: I have talked to several Texas lawyers now and several

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Speaker 4: national election lawyers now, just so you folks know, there

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Speaker 4: is no legal cause of action where they can send

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Speaker 4: either the FBI or the Texas Rangers, or the Texas

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Speaker 4: Bureau of Investigation or any other garbage or anybody to

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Speaker 4: Illinois to seize and arrest these people on a civil

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Speaker 4: warrant that has no basis in law or fact. And

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Speaker 4: what it will be if they do this is kidnapping,

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Speaker 4: which is a federal crime, which I would love to

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Speaker 4: see Greg Abbott find a way out of a kidnapping charge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Even this administration will reach a point, I believe.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about this because if we go into

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Speaker 1: a redistricting race, Democrats lose. All of us lose, right,

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Speaker 1: because it makes our democracy a joke. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you think happens here? You think Texas gets

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Speaker 1: the five seats.

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Speaker 4: Look, I don't think Texas gets the five seats. I

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Speaker 4: think the Democrats there have figured out that they are

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Speaker 4: playing by the rules. Forcing a quorum to break a

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Speaker 4: quorum in Texas is legal. It is in the state law.

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Speaker 4: And the state constitution. I think the Democrats are you know,

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Speaker 4: you know, I am a hard critic of their inability

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Speaker 4: to walk and chew gum. I think the Democrats are

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Speaker 4: actually winning this fight right now. I also think that

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Speaker 4: Newsome has made a very careful play here, which is

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Speaker 4: we're prepared to do this, but we're not going to

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Speaker 4: do this unless Texas triggers this battle, right, which is

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Speaker 4: exactly and that's that respects, that respects the fact that

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Speaker 4: we all understand that doing this is stupid.

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Speaker 1: Right, and it's also the road to the end of

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Speaker 1: American democracy, right, because you can't have free elections. You're

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Speaker 1: breaking down a.

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Speaker 4: Greased it is a greased slow on a hot day,

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Speaker 4: into cheating and invalidation of election results and legislative fuckery

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Speaker 4: on election results. And there's no good that comes to this,

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Speaker 4: Molly if fact and the look Texas, they can maximize

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Speaker 4: these five seats. We've looked at some of the other

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Speaker 4: states where they're in play. Ohio could maybe juice one

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Speaker 4: seat out of theirs because they're losing population. Florida's already

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Speaker 4: extremely redistricted for the Republicans, and they could maybe maybe

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Speaker 4: hypothetically kind of sort of squint and get another seat.

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Speaker 4: Maybe none of this is going to be easy. And

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Speaker 4: in Florida there are two constitutional amendments, one for federal

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Speaker 4: one for state redistricting. That and again even the Florida

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court, which is very conservative, is going to look

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Speaker 4: at those amendments and say, now you're breaking five and

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Speaker 4: six Amendments five and Amendent six. We're not going to

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Speaker 4: let you do this. There is a degree to which

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Speaker 4: the latitude that Texas has is not present in the

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Speaker 4: other big Republican states. Now in California and New York

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Speaker 4: and other states. If we end up in this death spiral,

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Speaker 4: Democrats better play. If Abbot adds five, then California adds five.

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Speaker 4: You know, we just cannot be in this box where

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Speaker 4: we unilaterally disarmed. It's like nuclear weapons, Molly. You know,

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Speaker 4: nobody wants them, but we all have them, and so

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Speaker 4: now we're kind of fucking stuck with them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's true.

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Speaker 4: And I thinkin of nuclear weapons is not to use

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Speaker 4: nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 1: Weapons is to determine. We'll see how this play is,

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Speaker 1: but it is there is a good case that Democrats

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Speaker 1: are doing the right thing. I did talk a lot

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Speaker 1: to the office of Governor Pritzker all of his people,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they've been really careful because the way

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Speaker 1: the money works, you don't want yep, right, it's very important.

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Speaker 1: But this crew is particularly well funded, and I think

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Speaker 1: that they can, you know, stay out until long as

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Speaker 1: nineteenth for sure.

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, great saying oh well, God can

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Speaker 4: do it again and again and again and again, can you, though, Chief?

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Speaker 4: Because really, remember, let's remember the excuse for this special session,

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Speaker 4: the one they sent the request to the legislature was

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Speaker 4: not about redistrict. It was about flood relief, which they've

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Speaker 4: done a shit job on for the people of Texas.

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Speaker 4: So I think there's a political lever that has been pulled.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that he can pull it over and

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Speaker 4: over and over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: But I also think it's important to remember that this

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Speaker 1: is a rapidly blueifying state. And the reason that Trump

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Speaker 1: won was a that he was good at telling people

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Speaker 1: he would do things they wanted him to do, and

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Speaker 1: b was because there were a lot of white people

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Speaker 1: who were scared about diversity, right, they were scared that

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Speaker 1: they were going to lose power. Sure, and now we

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Speaker 1: have a state like Texas, which is you know, it

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Speaker 1: is rapidly becoming a purple state now because they have

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Speaker 1: such low voter engagement. They're not voting like a purple state,

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Speaker 1: but they could. You know. It's like, I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: reason to assume that it can get there.

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Speaker 4: There. Look, Texas is getting younger, it is getting browner.

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Speaker 4: There are some areas of Texas that have been very

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Speaker 4: paradoxical for the Democrats. You have a lot of folks

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Speaker 4: in the Rio Grand Valley who are very progressive on

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Speaker 4: economic issues but also extremely religious, and Republicans have made

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Speaker 4: inroads with those. But like most of the Hispanic gains

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump has made, there are some early indications now

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Speaker 4: that in Texas those gains he made with Hispanics have

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Speaker 4: been given up.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine why people don't want to vote for

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Speaker 1: the guy who's putting their cousin in detention center and

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Speaker 1: not letting him use the phone. I can't imagine.

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Speaker 4: He is a real mystery. Let's remember one thing about Texas.

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump got fifty six point three of the vote

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Speaker 4: in Texas. That is the lowest Republican percentage since Nixon. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so he's not Texas has been a slow drip. And

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Speaker 4: I know it frustrates our Democratic friends that they can't

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Speaker 4: have that now. But Texas is a culturally conservative state

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Speaker 4: outside of the metros. It is an economically conservative state

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Speaker 4: in the oil and the role of oil and gas

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Speaker 4: plays a disproportionate role in the funding of elections in

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Speaker 4: that state. The reason that Greg.

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Speaker 1: Abbott, the way you're saying that, let his let me

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Speaker 1: rephrase that for English, very rich oil assholes give a

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Speaker 1: lot of money to Republicans because.

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Speaker 4: Hey, listen, I was getting to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I didn't know the attorney general state.

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Speaker 4: The attorney general who has been impeached, who is a felon,

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Speaker 4: who is a criminal, but.

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Speaker 1: They had to give then they gave money to everything

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Speaker 1: he got.

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Speaker 4: A couple of super oil and gas guys could donate

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Speaker 4: millillions of dollars in the state Senate to the swing

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Speaker 4: votes who so they wouldn't vote to impeach him. Correct,

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Speaker 4: Texas is and look for again, I am from Florida.

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Speaker 4: I am from Florida, and we know about corruption in Florida. Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is a state where we know, we know us

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Speaker 4: some corruption. Texas has lapped Ust and Louisiana, another state

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Speaker 4: with some corruption. And seriously, it's like five or six

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Speaker 4: guys that dominate the entire political scene in Texas because

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Speaker 4: they write such massive checks. Had a guy who used

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Speaker 4: to be in the oil and gas business, was the

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Speaker 4: CEO of a big warming gas company say to me

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Speaker 4: about a year ago, he is, there is no drill, baby,

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Speaker 4: drill bullshit left. All the easy fruit has been picked.

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Speaker 4: These guys are living on. These guys are living in

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Speaker 4: a in a in a dream world where they still

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Speaker 4: have a couple of billion dollars in the bank. But

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Speaker 4: it takes one global downturn and it's going to fuck

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Speaker 4: them all. I'm like, please Jesus faster, Please.

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Speaker 1: Tiniest violin in the world, play mano violin for oil

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Speaker 1: and gas guys who have read the planet, there is

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Speaker 1: no more oil and gas. Rick Wilson, will you come back?

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Speaker 4: You know I will?

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Speaker 1: I Wassita Weinevou is a contributing editor at The New

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Speaker 1: Republic and the author of the Right of the People,

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Speaker 1: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to BAZ Politics.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: This is like a big idea book. Explain to us

437
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: what the big idea here is behind this book.

438
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 5: Sure, so I wanted to write a book delving into

439
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 5: what democracy means.

440
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 3: In the first place.

441
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 5: We've heard a lot of that word in the last

442
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 5: ten years of American politics, especially in the last couple.

443
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 3: I think people.

444
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 5: Feel that democracy is under threats, that Donald trumpos is

445
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 5: a unique start to democracy. And yet when Democrats ran

446
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 5: on that message last year, there was really, I think

447
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 5: a lot of skepticism about it.

448
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 3: I think that's one reasons why Trump won.

449
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 5: So, you know, even before that, I sort of thought

450
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 5: that we were not talking democracy and is sufficiently deep

451
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 5: way won't get to the core of what it actually

452
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 5: meant with our system was actually democratic, and I wanted

453
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 5: to explore that. And so the book offers a definition

454
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 5: to what democracy means from my perspective, answers the question

455
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 5: of why the United States is a democracy. I'd argue

456
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 5: it's not, and that it sort of lays out some

457
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 5: political economic reforms that I think would help us get there.

458
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: Eventually, he explained us why it's not.

459
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 5: Sure, So you have to start from what democracy is

460
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 5: from first principles. You can read, as I did, a

461
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 5: lot of like dry and dusty academic theory on this question,

462
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 5: but I don't think you get to a more succinct

463
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 5: definition than democracy being a system in which the governed

464
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 5: themselves governed, So governance is not given over to some.

465
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: Abstract higher authority. It's not the king or class of

466
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 3: moll guard.

467
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 5: The people who are themselves governed do to the governing,

468
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 5: or as Lincoln said, government of buying for the people.

469
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 5: And I think there are three basic things you need

470
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 5: in the system for that to be true. The first

471
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 5: thing he needs politically equality. If there's any equality amongst

472
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 5: the people who are already to a decision that leaves

473
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 5: open the possibility that's some privileged class people is actually

474
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 5: the one that runs things right.

475
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: You need equality.

476
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 5: Second thing you need is responsiveness. Democracy is not a

477
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 5: suggestion box. When the people act together collectively that there

478
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 5: is something that happens as a consequence, they act with authority.

479
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 3: And the third thing is majority rule.

480
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 5: Of all the different ways we could make a decision

481
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 5: together from unanimity, everybody agreeing to some fore with minority rule,

482
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 5: majority rule is the only one that's consistent with the

483
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 5: principle of the equality. So if two people want something,

484
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 5: three people want some other thing, there's no way that

485
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 5: the two people get what they want over the three

486
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 5: unless there's some kind of inequality involved.

487
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 3: Right, So majority rule is important.

488
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 5: All that sounds pretty straightforward, and you lay it out

489
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 5: to people, pretty simple, easy to understand, but in very

490
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 5: very basic ways, the system we have floats all of

491
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 5: those things. I've done a couple events for this book

492
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 5: now where I've been in Washington, d C. Where I've

493
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 5: made a point of saying to people, Look, we're in

494
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 5: a city right now of about seven hundred thousand people

495
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 5: who don't have full representation in Congress. They have one

496
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 5: non voting delegate who can't vote in the final passage

497
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 5: of legislation in the House. There are four million Americans. Room,

498
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 5: that's true. There is no definition democracy in which that

499
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 5: is dependable. Which that is cratic. It just doesn't make

500
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 5: any sense. But even you know, going beyond that is

501
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 5: people have talked about for a few years now, especially

502
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 5: even those of us who do have representation have it

503
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 5: very equally apportioned. So somebody in Wyoming has about sixty

504
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 5: seven times representation in the Senate of somebody in California.

505
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: In that matters. It's not ballaced out by the House.

506
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 5: They're Senate alone decides on judicial nominees and executive appointments.

507
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 5: You need both houses to pass legislations, and the small

508
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 5: states have a kind of lead up power. The thing

509
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 5: that we could go into, as I do in the book,

510
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 5: all all kinds of that we be here for an hour,

511
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 5: but they're a very basic ways in which is system

512
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 5: that we have flats basic democratic principles, and I think

513
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 5: it's becoming more and more of a problem with time,

514
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 5: and one of the reasons, frankly why Donald Trump is

515
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 5: an office today.

516
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: And those are like very kind of nuts and bolts

517
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: truisms about it. But what about the fact that the

518
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: country seems sort of unable to become a multi racial democracy.

519
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's part of the story. I mean,

520
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 5: I think it's part of the reason why DC does not.

521
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 3: Have voting rights.

522
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 5: You have, I think a movement on the right in

523
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 5: the last couple of decades especially that is threatened by

524
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 5: the concept of the United States becoming a more multiracial

525
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 5: system or full democracy. And they've done all kinds of

526
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 5: things from you know, the jeremanding conversation right now to

527
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 5: literally you know, restricting voting rights, preventing the expansion of

528
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 5: the vote, to minorities or filmed to protect the rights

529
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 5: of votes of minorities. They're doing everything I can to

530
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 5: constrain the electorate to an electorate that feels safer to them,

531
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 5: that feels like it's going to deliver Republican victories more reliably.

532
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 5: And yeah, that's part of what's going on. But I

533
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 5: think the book is also an effort to sort of

534
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 5: like pull back and say that that is an immediate crisis,

535
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 5: that's an immediate situation you need to deal with. But

536
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 5: there are also long standing structural features of the system

537
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 5: that are also bad. They didn't come up in the

538
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 5: last ten years or so, but have sort of accreted

539
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 5: their unfairness over time. And I think those structural reasons

540
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 5: are one of the reasons why the Republican Party is

541
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 5: so powerful and one of the reasons why the Public

542
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 5: Party is as extreme as it. If you are not

543
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 5: beholden as Republican member of Congress or as a Republican

544
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 5: president to a broad and diverse electorate, but you are

545
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 5: appealing exclusively to save Republican voters or Republican primary voters,

546
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 5: that pulls your politics in the more extreme direction. Then

547
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 5: it would be the case if you actually had to

548
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 5: care what people in Los Angeles when New York or

549
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 5: Chicago believed right. And I think that's one of the

550
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 5: things that's shaking our politics now as well.

551
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: I have been told and I'm not convinced this is right,

552
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: but I'm not convinced it's wrong either, that rank choice

553
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: voting creates a system where there's less incentive to be

554
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: a flamethrower. Do you think that's right? And if so, why,

555
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: And if it's wrong, I'm fine with that too. I

556
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: have no worse than those raris. Yeah, I mean, I

557
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: think we've seen a little bit of evidence of this.

558
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: It's certainly one of the benefits of political scientists theorized.

559
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: But you know, looking within the narrow context of the

560
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: Democratic primary in New York, for instance, we saw Zora

561
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: Mumdani and Brad Lander kind of work together in those

562
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: final ways because they understood, you know, if we can

563
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: get our voters who rank each other first and second,

564
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: that's a coalition that sort of that we're going.

565
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 3: To be to.

566
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 5: You know, if these other guys were kind of ideologically aligned,

567
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 5: you know, in certain respects, and so it's better for

568
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 5: us to sort of figure out how to work together

569
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 5: than to fire pop shots at each other. I do

570
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 5: think that that's an indication of the kind of politics

571
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 5: that emergence ranked choice system that's more based in coalition building,

572
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 5: trying and see what kind of allies you can cultivate. Yeah,

573
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 5: I think it's worth a try for that reason, but

574
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 5: for all kinds of other reasons too. I mean, for

575
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 5: anybody who's frustrated with the two party duopoly as they

576
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 5: call it. There's a form of ranked choice voting combined

577
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 5: with abortion representation, which I talked about in the book.

578
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 5: The people who said, you know, could lead to the

579
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 5: flourishing and development of other parties within the system.

580
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: So talk us through what that looks like and how

581
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: that is achieved, because that gets me very excited.

582
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

583
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 5: So not to to more people who get too technical,

584
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 5: but the idea is that if we had instead of

585
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 5: having one person in each congressional district, but had a

586
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 5: system which multiple people could be elected from a district

587
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 5: and you are assigned a number of seats based on

588
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 5: your proportion of the vote. That means that you know,

589
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 5: in districts across the country, have not just Democrats and

590
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 5: Republicans in each district because a Democrat may win sixty percent,

591
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 5: the Republican might win only thirty percent.

592
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: Whatever. You also have.

593
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 5: Down the line other people who then because they want

594
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 5: some proportions to vote above a certain threashold getting some

595
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 5: number of seats maybe one or two or whatever per district.

596
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 5: That's the beginnings of building an actual third party, a

597
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 5: fourth party, the fifth party, whatever amount of representation in

598
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 5: the House that they wouldn't other liis have. So yeah,

599
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 5: that's that's that's the simplest terms how what it would do.

600
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 5: But it depends upon moving away from the system in

601
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 5: which you win like forty something percent of the vote

602
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 5: right now in the congression election, even if most people

603
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 5: didn't vote for even if the majority of people who

604
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 5: went out to vote voted against you, you still win

605
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 5: that seat as long as you got more votes in

606
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 5: the next guy and you're the only person in that

607
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 5: entire district going to Congress. Right moving away from that

608
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 5: to a system where we have multiple representatives will be

609
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 5: healthy because it cultivates more parties, but also because it

610
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 5: allowso to be able to jerrymandering situation we're in now.

611
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 5: If you know that you're going to get at least

612
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 5: a few seats per district, and then you're not going

613
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 5: to be cut off entirely because you didn't win the

614
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 5: number one spot, so reduces you're in incentive to draw

615
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 5: these insane lines.

616
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: So it's one thing we should explore now.

617
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 5: Obviously Democrats and Republicans have a lot of incentives not

618
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 5: to do this to keep the system we have now.

619
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 5: But you know, I think if we put the idea

620
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 5: out there, get more people interested in it, things might

621
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 5: move in our direction.

622
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: I don't know work to try it.

623
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: It strikes me that we are hurtling towards something bad,

624
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: not clear what it's going to be. Could be a pandemic,

625
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 1: could be of this, could be that. No, no, but

626
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: it feels as if the center is not holding. So

627
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: you will be a period and I don't know what

628
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: that's going to look like. As someone who has made

629
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: wrong guesses in the past, I plan on not doing

630
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: that again. But when that moment happens, Democrats are going

631
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: to have to do something. So there'll be some kind

632
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: of moment, right like what happened with the Biden administration,

633
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: there was a moment where sanity returned, and it was

634
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: the powers that we were not able to right the ship.

635
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: I'm not going to blame anyone because I don't know

636
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: that I would have been able to do it, but

637
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: it wasn't able to happen, So again we will have

638
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: unless we're heading into straight authoritarianism, We're going to have

639
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: a moment to write the ship. And it strikes me

640
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: that what needs to happen is the kind of stuff

641
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: you're talking about, So talk me through that.

642
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 5: If this isn't a kind of wake up call moment

643
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 5: of crisis for people, I don't really know what would

644
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 5: be the last six months of this administration. People being

645
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 5: taken off the street and put into unmarked vans because

646
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 5: they expressed an opinion, people being sent abroad for no

647
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 5: reason into gulags, these attacks on SOLI society and universities,

648
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 5: you know, after we saw this man launch what I

649
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 5: think is could fairly be described as a coup. If

650
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 5: this isn't a kind of moment of crisis that verand

651
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 5: m Care Party can sort of understand and feel the

652
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: need to react to, I don't know what's going to

653
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 5: do it. I kind of expect and hope that the

654
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 5: conversations people are having now again about authoritarianism and the

655
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: risk of having a dictator like Trump emerged, perhaps again

656
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 5: is going to drive some of the democratic discourse, democratic

657
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 5: reform discourse next time Democrats have control of Washington. You know,

658
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 5: we had this version of this early Bid administration. We

659
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 5: have the four the people outreach I talked about in

660
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 5: the books, So Don Lewis voting rights are that didn't

661
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 5: go anywhere, And I think the part of the book

662
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 5: is aimed at sort of understanding.

663
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: Just pause for a second. It didn't go anywhere because

664
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: if Kristen's Cinema and Joe Manchin, that's right. I'm not

665
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: saying that there wasn't a lot of fuck ups throughout

666
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: the process, but like Kristen Cinema turned out to be

667
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: a crazy lobbyist want to be and Joe Manchin always

668
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,719
Speaker 1: was a crazy lobbyist manage. So it did like it

669
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: was foiled by people who really knew how to foil stuff.

670
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 5: Sorry, go on, I think that's right. You know, when

671
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 5: I think about what happened under Biden with this stuff

672
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 5: is well, if Kristen Cinema and Joe Manchin had had

673
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 5: reason to be afraid of their voters on these questions,

674
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 5: they might have voted differently. If there was a kind

675
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 5: of popular understanding, even in West Virginia, even in Arizona,

676
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 5: that the system needed to fund my change, and voters

677
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 5: were willing to vote on that basis. Maybe they able

678
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 5: to respond differently, and I think, frankly, as we move

679
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 5: into the next Ammeran Karric administration, the success of these

680
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 5: kinds of reforms is going to depend upon a broad

681
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 5: public understanding that these things need to happen. And so

682
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 5: the question is how do you build that Again. We

683
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 5: just saw an election where Democrats ran on democracy. I

684
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 5: think ran, you know, with a very coherent message in

685
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 5: metric they put out there, and people didn't embrace it,

686
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 5: at least the pivotal vote people in the elector didn't

687
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 5: embrace it. And I think that was because these discussions

688
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 5: tend to be whether it's about the Senate, the in

689
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 5: electoral College, and Supreme Court, whatever it happens to be,

690
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 5: they tend to be abstract in the way that people

691
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 5: cannot connect to their own material lives.

692
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: That's my thesis.

693
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 5: People hear that stuff and they think you're talking about

694
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 5: defending institutions, or if we're talking about civics class stuff,

695
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 5: and they want cheaper groceries, they want a their rent

696
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 5: and so on and so. Part of the project the

697
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 5: book two is making an argument that democracy isn't just

698
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 5: this abstraction. It is the means by which we can

699
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 5: actually improve our lives by allowing Washington to pass policies

700
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 5: that help us more easily. But also, and this is

701
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 5: I think one of the key provocations of the book.

702
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 5: As a system of ideas we can carry into the economy,

703
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 5: I think that unions are in stantiation of democracy, or

704
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 5: thinks we can do at work to give people democratic voice,

705
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 5: democratic power, democratic agency that allow them to see, Okay, well,

706
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 5: democracy isn't just this kind of wooly thing in the clouds.

707
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 5: It's a thing that gotten me a higher wage. It's

708
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 5: a thing that allowed me to address working conditions. And

709
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 5: so I'm committed to democraciess a system of ideas because

710
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 5: I've seen it work in this way in my own

711
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 5: everyday working life. That kind of argument is not one

712
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 5: that I think democrats have offered. Frankly, I think it's

713
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 5: not one of the left offers as much as it

714
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 5: should you know, the idea that somebody who works at

715
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 5: Amazon or Walmart or McDonald's, can, I think and should

716
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 5: you know, have the right to go to the polls

717
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 5: and vote on the basis of what they think our

718
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 5: foreign policies should be with Russia or on. There's nowhere

719
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 5: in their life where they can go and say, this

720
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 5: is how Amazon should work. From my perspective, this is

721
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 5: how I think Walmart should work. This is how I

722
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 5: think McDonald work. Even though they are themselves the people

723
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 5: who make these corporations function and allow them to do

724
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 5: what they do. That to me is a basic democratic question,

725
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 5: and it's one that you can link up to the

726
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 5: concept of authoritarianism to make it less abstract.

727
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 3: You know, your boss is authoritary. The executive run your

728
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 3: companies are authority.

729
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 5: They can lay you off without any kind of input,

730
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 5: without any kind of agency on your behalf. They can

731
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 5: prevent you from you know, if you're at Amazon going

732
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 5: a bathroom, bage, talking to your coworkers and your free time.

733
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 5: This is also, I think we should understand, is a

734
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 5: violation of our democratic rights, democratic agency. So this is

735
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 5: all what long witted way of saying, if we want

736
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 5: a pro democracy movement to succeed in this country, if

737
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 5: we want to build one, it has to be one

738
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 5: that's built on the basis if not just the need

739
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 5: for political reform, if the need for economic reform. On

740
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 5: the same grounds, the democracy is the means by which

741
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 5: we exercise some control over conditions that shape our lives.

742
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 5: That means we're entitled democracy not only in Washington but

743
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 5: at work. That to me is a message that people

744
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 5: will find a novel. It's a message that isn't just

745
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 5: about the defensive institutions, and it's a message that again

746
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 5: connects democracy to people's felt material needs.

747
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 3: So I don't know it's worth a try.

748
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: I think so much about Trump winning on populism when

749
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,479
Speaker 1: his agenda is entirely a defensive institutions. Really it's also

750
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: crushing institutions, but it's a defense of the status quo, yes,

751
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: and also the end of the progressive taxation and a

752
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: return to Reagan ask progressive taxation. So somehow he is

753
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: able to sell this as populism, and Democrats are not

754
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: able to catch a populous wave despite the fact that

755
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: their agenda is broadly populist. Like, am I right? I

756
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: mean that's what it strikes me as.

757
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 5: I think that's a fair reading, and I think it's

758
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 5: just Donald Trump makes the sale on being against institutions

759
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 5: the way that democrats have not. Democrats will come out

760
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 5: and say, well, you know, he violated Article whatever.

761
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 3: Today.

762
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 5: He's doing things this way, and traditionally they've been done

763
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 5: in a bipartisan fashion.

764
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: In this other way.

765
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 5: When they say these things, I think people hear them

766
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 5: as defenses of the status quo, offenses of institutions, even though,

767
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 5: as you said, look, the actual policy agenda is one

768
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 5: that would empower people far more the Donald Trump's agenda,

769
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 5: which empowers and the riches already wealthy and powerful people

770
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 5: in this country. It's about the register at which they

771
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,439
Speaker 5: address the public and the kinds of moves that Donald

772
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 5: Trump is willing to make to further that agenda. Right, So,

773
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 5: I think there are ways in which he's violating the Constitution.

774
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 5: There are ways in which he's violating the traditional methods

775
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 5: and avenues of policymaking.

776
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 3: So that stuff is anti institutional.

777
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 5: In the way that when people voters understand, and voters

778
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 5: also don't really care about those things as deeply as

779
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 5: I think Democrats would like them to. Yeah, so I

780
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 5: think you're right that as a matter of substance, Trump

781
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 5: is defending and in fact entrenching and inequitable status quo,

782
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 5: and the fact that Democrats have been unsuccessful in conveying

783
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 5: that to voters is I think the function of the

784
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 5: way that they communicate their issues with the president when

785
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 5: people go out there and say, well, you know, donald

786
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 5: Trump is and I think this is true. Again, what

787
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 5: Donald Trump is doing is wrong because he is violating

788
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 5: these parts of the Constitution, and that is bad. What

789
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 5: I would like because part of this book is about

790
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 5: moving beyond Constitution at some points now within in an

791
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 5: orderly fashion, not like shredding the thing as don Trump

792
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 5: is doing, but sort of working democratically to amend things,

793
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 5: see something we can and someday moving to a different document.

794
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 5: What I would like people to say is what Donald

795
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 5: Trump is doing is wrong is because we have democratic

796
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 5: rights as Americans. We have a right to particular kind

797
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 5: of policy making process as a matter of principle, and

798
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 5: what Donald Trump is doing is advocating those rights and

799
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 5: engineering kind of domination over them. It's not about being

800
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 5: tethered to this document, to this piece of paper this institutions.

801
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 5: You're appealing to some kind of background set of ideals,

802
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 5: and that sounds different.

803
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: I think it hits.

804
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 5: People differently than there's a rule book here, and we've

805
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 5: identified the twenty five ways in which Donald Trump is

806
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 5: violing that rule book.

807
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you so

808
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: much for coming on, Neil, Thanks for having me.

809
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 3: No mock, Wilson.

810
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 4: It's not for the moment in the hour and everyone

811
00:39:58,480 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 4: loves best the moment.

812
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: Of fuck are you going to auction off Laura Lumer?

813
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 4: You know what I did post on Twitter on Sunday

814
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 4: morning that I'm not advocating for Laura when we're to

815
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 4: be eaten by wolves if she was by wolves? All right,

816
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 4: I don't think anybody would object.

817
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: None of that, sir, None of that. Now go, let's

818
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 1: talk about my favorite Billy.

819
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 4: Long Commissioner commissioner. You know what, because President Miller said so.

820
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's out, He's out.

821
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 4: That's my terrible Louisiana accent.

822
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: Now it's pretty good. It all sounds the same to me.

823
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: Not Paris baby.

824
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 6: To me, yeah, not Paris, but Billy Long, the IRS

825
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 6: Commissioner who was named IRS Commissioner after some sort of

826
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 6: Elon Scott Besson Bruh or the Elon's guy got blown out.

827
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 4: Billy Long is as fanatic a Trump fanboy as you

828
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 4: can imagine. He is a passionate maga super Trumper. He

829
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 4: is a bit of a boss hog. He is a

830
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 4: Trump sickophant of the most intense and disgusting degree. If

831
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 4: Donald Trump farted in his face, he would say, it

832
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 4: smelled like honeysuckle and joy.

833
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: Why are you like this? Why are you like this?

834
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: I learned it from watching you, all right, Billy Bill.

835
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,479
Speaker 4: Look, Billy Long was fired because he would not turn

836
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 4: over to President Miller IRS information about people with their

837
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 4: immigration status and.

838
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: This is their ten thousandth IRS head.

839
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 4: Yes, something like that. But the reason that he did this,

840
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 4: the reason that Miller fired him, President Miller, is because

841
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: the law, federal law says that no one at the

842
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: IRS can turn over certain personally identifiable information to any

843
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 4: other organization or entity, including the White House and including

844
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 4: DHS and ICE without court orders. And they don't have them.

845
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 4: This is against the law. And Billy Long said to himself, well, shit,

846
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 4: if I do this, because the way the law is written,

847
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 4: it would literally hold him personally responsible and anybody else

848
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 4: who released the documents or press the keyboard to sit

849
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 4: send on it with felony charges. And there's a long

850
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 4: statutal limitations where they'll be out of office someday and

851
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 4: that thing can still bite him on the ass. And

852
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 4: Billy Long is too old and too fat and too

853
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 4: comfortable to want to go to prison. So when he

854
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 4: said no, and when he said to them this is

855
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 4: against the law, I literally can't do this for you

856
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 4: because I'll go to jail, the White House said, Okay,

857
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 4: You're fired. This White House molly over and over again.

858
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 4: They believe that an executive order is superior to a law,

859
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 4: correct is superior to statute. Because they are morons. They

860
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 4: don't understand this. Because they are evil, they keep doing it.

861
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 4: So that's my moment of fuckery, Rick Wilson, See you

862
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 4: again next time.

863
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

864
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

865
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

866
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

867
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.