WEBVTT - 533 - An Exercise in Frustration

0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Hello and welcome.

0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:20.040
<v Speaker 2>It's my favorite murder.

0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:24.120
<v Speaker 1>That's Georgia Hardstar. That's Karen kil Gariff, and today we're

0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:25.480
<v Speaker 1>going to beautiful Italy.

0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:30.480
<v Speaker 2>I've been practicing my horrible Italian on Karen since I'm

0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:30.960
<v Speaker 2>going Oh.

0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes, she's pulling out the chef's case Italian corner the chefs,

0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:42.199
<v Speaker 1>did you preparado? Yes? I made coffee for you. Gratzi,

0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:45.080
<v Speaker 1>You're gonna do great.

0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:45.639
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.400
<v Speaker 1>Right now, I'm flashing back to pictures of very patient

0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.720
<v Speaker 1>waiters waiting for me to do that, and then being like, Madame,

0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:54.760
<v Speaker 1>I was speak English with you. I was like, thanks

0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:55.920
<v Speaker 1>so much, thank you.

0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:57.640
<v Speaker 2>I just they just want to see you sweat a

0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.560
<v Speaker 2>little bit. Yes, put some effort into it.

0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Please have some respect for the country you're in.

0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes. And also we're supposed to say we may say, O,

0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.319
<v Speaker 2>where are you from? You say I'm from the Republic

0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:08.679
<v Speaker 2>of California instead of the US.

0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.479
<v Speaker 1>You're like, I'm cool. That's right.

0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:13.840
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of I feel like obligated that we have to

0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:14.839
<v Speaker 2>talk about this real quick.

0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Do I move this off?

0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? This is getting serious. Okay. We have a lot

0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.600
<v Speaker 2>of listeners that live in LA and that are over

0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.119
<v Speaker 2>eighteen and I think we need to make sure we

0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.080
<v Speaker 2>tell them that they have to vote for mayor. Oh,

0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.920
<v Speaker 2>and they cannot vote for Spencer Pratt. And I know

0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.960
<v Speaker 2>that they you're eighteen, You're like, I don't give a shit,

0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.319
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't bother me. You have to vote, so you

0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.080
<v Speaker 2>cancel out the people that are stupid that are voting

0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.199
<v Speaker 2>for him, because we know our listeners aren't stupid.

0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:43.640
<v Speaker 1>You're not going to vote for him, that's right, but

0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.920
<v Speaker 1>they might not go vote that day. True, That's a

0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.360
<v Speaker 1>great point to me. Yeah, I also think I will

0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.320
<v Speaker 1>say I believe in the children who are so much

0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.280
<v Speaker 1>smarter and more active than we ever had to be. Yes,

0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.840
<v Speaker 1>the privilege of a political from the nineties I think

0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.080
<v Speaker 1>about and shiver with how disgusting it is. Yeah, and

0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.280
<v Speaker 1>how much I'd never helped or did anything. And I

0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:12.160
<v Speaker 1>think these kids today know what's what. Also, speaking of which,

0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm a real believer in Nitya Rahman. She's also running.

0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, she's amazing because they do everything they can

0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.520
<v Speaker 1>to keep her down. They do everything they can.

0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean that's a debate all on its own. Yeah,

0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:25.480
<v Speaker 2>vote for someone.

0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:25.840
<v Speaker 1>You believe in.

0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:27.840
<v Speaker 2>It's not going to be him.

0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.600
<v Speaker 1>We've played around with democracy too much and we are

0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.119
<v Speaker 1>now actively doing damage and harmed people every single day

0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:35.400
<v Speaker 1>with non action.

0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, that's I felt like we had to

0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:38.880
<v Speaker 2>say that just.

0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:45.040
<v Speaker 1>Because and now and we're back because this is the

0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.760
<v Speaker 1>crazy world we've had to live in where we simultaneously

0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.440
<v Speaker 1>deal with the fall of democracy and then hey, Georgia's

0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.600
<v Speaker 1>excited to go on vacation to the wonderful world of Italy.

0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.079
<v Speaker 2>I feel like there might have been a glitch in

0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.000
<v Speaker 2>the matrix and it's freaking me out a little bit

0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.160
<v Speaker 2>right the second Yeah, well, before we walked in this room,

0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe this room is a time machine who the fuck knows,

0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.040
<v Speaker 2>or time capsule or something. But the hot Dog phone

0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.200
<v Speaker 2>box is upside down and it's freaking me out.

0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.600
<v Speaker 1>You know what it is? The other podcasts that shoot

0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.800
<v Speaker 1>in here, they take our stuff down and put other stuff.

0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:17.640
<v Speaker 2>Someone's fucking with us. Who did that bridge?

0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:26.200
<v Speaker 1>You specifically Paula were on that. That's really funny. Wait,

0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:27.880
<v Speaker 1>was this like an easter egg that he put in

0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:28.600
<v Speaker 1>to say? Hey?

0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.120
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think paul did, but it just happened

0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:32.840
<v Speaker 2>on It doesn't clean up after himself.

0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Ill, I was in here, not that long ago.

0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Someone turned the hot dog phone upside down and blew

0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:37.560
<v Speaker 2>my mind.

0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Seriously, there's three people crying in the control room right

0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:42.280
<v Speaker 1>now because it's the intensity, which you know.

0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:42.840
<v Speaker 2>I love it.

0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:48.560
<v Speaker 1>I love it. I went to the desert this past

0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.840
<v Speaker 1>weekend for a last minute birthday trip hot springs, yes,

0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.400
<v Speaker 1>because I didn't plan anything. And then I was like, well,

0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:57.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't I'm not just going to sit here, and

0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.600
<v Speaker 1>I might as well go and sit in some yes,

0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.440
<v Speaker 1>thinner magnesium watery. Man, I'm a believer. You look glowy.

0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Oh thank you? Well, I really Also, I think I've

0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.720
<v Speaker 1>gone over the I went over the Stress waterfall, and

0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:14.440
<v Speaker 1>for a while I was churning down in those the

0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.520
<v Speaker 1>white water at the bottom of the Stress waterfall.

0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.039
<v Speaker 2>See you in a barrel, just like an old tiny barrel.

0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.080
<v Speaker 1>Right, I was down there, water straight down on my

0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.680
<v Speaker 1>head for a while. I popped straight back up and

0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.360
<v Speaker 1>I landed in a hot spring out by the desert. Also,

0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.440
<v Speaker 1>it was one hundred and like three or four. At

0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.280
<v Speaker 1>one point we just sat by a pool like I

0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.600
<v Speaker 1>was a person that gets tan and just like laid

0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.080
<v Speaker 1>around by the pool for like hours, so nice. It

0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.000
<v Speaker 1>was great. I like less self help books and more

0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.839
<v Speaker 1>like just go just go sit in the sun, or

0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:45.400
<v Speaker 1>just go bake and.

0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, get the dopamine, yes, somehow actively Yeah, but like

0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.760
<v Speaker 2>good for you dopamine, not like alcohol.

0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly, do something that immediately have an effect on

0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:59.120
<v Speaker 1>your nervous system, which that really does. I didn't realize.

0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:00.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love that place.

0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm a real desert lizard.

0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:04.760
<v Speaker 2>Should get into it? Or do you want to hear

0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:06.520
<v Speaker 2>about jump roping? Nope, let's get into it.

0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:07.560
<v Speaker 1>But it's jump roping.

0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.120
<v Speaker 2>I just started a new personal challenge. If you want

0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.280
<v Speaker 2>to join me, jump the rope five minutes a day. Yes,

0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:16.920
<v Speaker 2>though it's great, I'm going to turn it into content

0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.320
<v Speaker 2>because nothing can happen without turning into content.

0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.520
<v Speaker 1>Or you can learn to double dutch eventually. Are you

0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:22.960
<v Speaker 1>going to build up to a skill.

0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to learn to jump rope first because it's

0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:26.760
<v Speaker 2>harder than I remember.

0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:28.680
<v Speaker 1>But do you feel like you might be able to

0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.080
<v Speaker 1>get skip rope? Yeah? That bang the idea?

0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Right then then I'm a jump rope influencer.

0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.719
<v Speaker 1>Yes, then you can go to New York City where

0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.840
<v Speaker 1>I watch tiktoks of people jumping into those double dutches

0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.880
<v Speaker 1>that pop up in a square as a kid, you could, Yeah,

0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.520
<v Speaker 1>I think I could do it a little bit.

0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I can know I could do it.

0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.080
<v Speaker 2>That's how cocky I am and how much I don't

0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.200
<v Speaker 2>know how old I am. I bet I could get

0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:51.400
<v Speaker 2>into it.

0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.800
<v Speaker 1>I'll immediately break your hip the second you do like,

0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh god, that's really good. I'm totally down for that.

0:05:57.880 --> 0:05:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Do you have to check in and stuff?

0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:00.680
<v Speaker 2>Sure? Yes, we don't do it.

0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:02.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, we'll never talk about it again. I mean that

0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.320
<v Speaker 1>is our way, truly. But it's fun to dry things. Yes,

0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.359
<v Speaker 1>you know. I have a mini trampoline that I jump

0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:08.960
<v Speaker 1>on all the time.

0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:10.960
<v Speaker 2>I do too. I'd never jump on it, it's so hard.

0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.520
<v Speaker 1>What about this, I'm going to get on my mini trampling.

0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.320
<v Speaker 1>You do your jump rope, yes, and we'll do parallel

0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.440
<v Speaker 1>jumping therapies and then report back.

0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Yes, okay, my favorite jumping apparatus.

0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.880
<v Speaker 1>This is not an integration of any kind. I'm not

0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:31.040
<v Speaker 1>being paid by Big Jump Blue at all. It's not

0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:31.920
<v Speaker 1>what's happened I am.

0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.640
<v Speaker 2>She didn't get that, did you see, Katie even Buskirk

0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:40.080
<v Speaker 2>right before we started recording. No, she's our incredible integration person.

0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.880
<v Speaker 2>AD sales ad sales manager. She texts us and said,

0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.200
<v Speaker 2>I was looking through where your listeners are across the world,

0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.360
<v Speaker 2>and then she wrote with a fucking gift Vatican City.

0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.440
<v Speaker 1>That's not true, it's true inside the Vatican.

0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes, we have listeners in Vatican City.

0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, then may just for one second.

0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.800
<v Speaker 2>We are trying it all the way back to Italy.

0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Please get it back up, for get it it?

0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:06.919
<v Speaker 2>Okay?

0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.880
<v Speaker 1>What uh? Hello? Every every citizen of Vatican City that's

0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:12.800
<v Speaker 1>listening to us right now, you're putting it over the

0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Maybe please go into your archives that you don't let

0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.239
<v Speaker 1>the public into, so we can see the dragon eggs

0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:23.920
<v Speaker 1>and the ghosts that are caught in a draggedy an.

0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:24.920
<v Speaker 1>All we want to see.

0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.080
<v Speaker 2>It all has to be a listener who just does

0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.440
<v Speaker 2>the archives. Gotta be just like a custodian.

0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.280
<v Speaker 1>A custodian, a file folder. Ten to tour.

0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:34.440
<v Speaker 2>We'll give you some merch.

0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.480
<v Speaker 1>You can have any sweatshirt you want if you tell

0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.560
<v Speaker 1>us the secrets of the Vatican and let us look inside. Yeah,

0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.280
<v Speaker 1>either soon. I have watched the secrets of the Vatican. Yeah,

0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.320
<v Speaker 1>and they don't tie you in good secrets like it's

0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.320
<v Speaker 1>like Mary Magdalene is actually the one.

0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.000
<v Speaker 2>No, nobody knows the good secrets, but the people who

0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:53.280
<v Speaker 2>hate them.

0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know that.

0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.240
<v Speaker 2>It's if you're going to talk about fucking time travel,

0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.760
<v Speaker 2>cities and places, that's obviously.

0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.240
<v Speaker 1>That's the number one port right. They do a lot

0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.600
<v Speaker 1>of old crazy shit there. We did go on. We

0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.960
<v Speaker 1>went on a tour of the Vatican because Paige Hurwitz,

0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.680
<v Speaker 1>our friend an Ep, made us go there, a person

0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.320
<v Speaker 1>who was born and raised very Jewish. Yeah, She's like,

0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:15.880
<v Speaker 1>we have to go to the Vatican. And it was

0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:17.840
<v Speaker 1>me Janet and Adrian were like, we don't want to.

0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.520
<v Speaker 1>It made us go. Yes. It was incredible, except for

0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.280
<v Speaker 1>I did get in trouble for filming inside the Assistine

0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Chapel and I was doing it for my dad, where

0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.440
<v Speaker 1>I was like he's going to lose his mind, and

0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.400
<v Speaker 1>the man like put my hand down and he was like,

0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.200
<v Speaker 1>be respectful of other people's religions, and I was like,

0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.199
<v Speaker 1>I think we're the number one of the classic Catholics

0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.480
<v Speaker 1>in this religion. Like my grandparents paid for this fucking thing.

0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:44.720
<v Speaker 1>They gave you all kinds of money they didn't have.

0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, Vatican City, here we go.

0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:52.000
<v Speaker 1>What here's the thing you're flipping through Netflix, You're like, oh,

0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.680
<v Speaker 1>look there's a true crime podcast. Let me click on

0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.160
<v Speaker 1>here and see what they're doing. Are they talking about this?

0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:00.280
<v Speaker 1>What is this? Why is this?

0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.839
<v Speaker 2>This is so dominant? Why those two women? I can't

0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:03.640
<v Speaker 2>stand women.

0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Listen to their voice. I think their opinions matter. They

0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.040
<v Speaker 1>can't even speak a telling you even to go into

0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:14.320
<v Speaker 1>the kitchen and be tradwives. And really, meanwhile, meanwhile, we're

0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:18.079
<v Speaker 1>not going to we refuse. Meanwhile, that's not in the plans.

0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Okay, real quick, let's do some case updates.

0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean, if we are true crime podcasts, let's talk

0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.600
<v Speaker 1>about because big things have actually been happening in the

0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.560
<v Speaker 1>true crime space that's true we're in. And the craziest

0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:32.240
<v Speaker 1>one is that the convictions in the Murdoch murders have

0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.880
<v Speaker 1>been overturned. Alec Murdoch convicted for the murders of his

0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.080
<v Speaker 1>wife Maggie and his son Paul. That guilty verdict has

0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.440
<v Speaker 1>been tossed by the South Carolina Supreme Court, citing shocking

0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.839
<v Speaker 1>jury interference by a woman named Becky Hill, a court

0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.600
<v Speaker 1>clerk who managed jurors during his twenty twenty three trial.

0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.480
<v Speaker 1>What'd she do? They say, she improperly influenced the jury,

0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.199
<v Speaker 1>among other things, by advising them not to trust the

0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.120
<v Speaker 1>defense's evidence. Can't do that, Well, that's egregious, I mean

0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.920
<v Speaker 1>absolutely not. The South Carolina Supreme Court seems to agree

0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.960
<v Speaker 1>with this, saying in its recent decision, Hill had quote

0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.880
<v Speaker 1>placed her fingers on the scales of justice. But we

0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.920
<v Speaker 1>should say Becky Hill has denied influencing the jury, although

0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:21.480
<v Speaker 1>she did. What would you do? She pled guilty to

0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.679
<v Speaker 1>misusing public funds and using your job for personal gain

0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.240
<v Speaker 1>and specifically to promote her book about the trial. Oh

0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.080
<v Speaker 1>so it's a wash. That's no good. Yeah, because here's

0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.120
<v Speaker 1>the thing. I think they get her on this crime. Yeah,

0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.559
<v Speaker 1>justifiably so. And then it's like and perfect because now

0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.120
<v Speaker 1>we undo the whole sweater right, totally unbelievable.

0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.040
<v Speaker 2>Wow, Okay, I have a quick update on you know,

0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.800
<v Speaker 2>the case that it's nearest to my heart, which is

0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.679
<v Speaker 2>the Yoworkshop murders. Yeah, I covered in episode seventy Live

0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.600
<v Speaker 2>at the Moon Tower. And so they have finally found

0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.360
<v Speaker 2>the actual killer based on DNA it's clearly this person.

0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.400
<v Speaker 2>So the City of Austin is expected to pay thirty

0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:07.000
<v Speaker 2>five million in restitution to the four teenage boys who

0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:12.240
<v Speaker 2>were arrested and convicted of this. So Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott,

0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Forrest Welborn, and the family of Maurice Pearce who died

0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.880
<v Speaker 2>in twenty ten. So thirty five million. Yeah, it's taken

0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.360
<v Speaker 2>a long time, but they're at least getting some justice.

0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, is it justice or just like, at least

0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:31.920
<v Speaker 1>they're getting some relief from the difficulties that being convicted

0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.040
<v Speaker 1>for this crime is probably created in their lives.

0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:35.880
<v Speaker 2>And you can if you watch the documentary that was

0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.280
<v Speaker 2>on HBO. I think they're in it and they're clearly

0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:39.000
<v Speaker 2>struggling still.

0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.080
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, oh that all case.

0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.960
<v Speaker 2>All right, God, well we have podcast network.

0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.959
<v Speaker 1>It's time to be positive. Okay. So this week on Ghosted,

0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:51.800
<v Speaker 1>Ross is joined by the scrumptiously spooky drag sensation Pineapple Honeydew.

0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, are you familiar with pineapples work?

0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:55.959
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm not enough.

0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:58.720
<v Speaker 1>I can't wait to watch. They get into apple atch

0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:04.320
<v Speaker 1>and superstitions, dreams and Pineapple's own uncanny manifestations.

0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.120
<v Speaker 2>And then on I Said No Gifts, bridger Or avoids

0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.560
<v Speaker 2>a full blown argument when writer comedian Chloe Radcliffe arrives

0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.080
<v Speaker 2>with a gift. Then the two discussed Craigslist killers, bed

0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.559
<v Speaker 2>bug immunity, and dating delicate men.

0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.880
<v Speaker 1>It's like a conversation just for us. Then over on

0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.240
<v Speaker 1>this podcast Will Kill You Aaron and Aaron dive into

0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.760
<v Speaker 1>his toe plasmosis, which is among the most widespread fungal

0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.360
<v Speaker 1>infections in North America.

0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.480
<v Speaker 2>What is it about me and them that makes me

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:31.640
<v Speaker 2>so excited about that?

0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:33.920
<v Speaker 1>Because you know you're now going to listen to that

0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.560
<v Speaker 1>episode and now you'll be an expert on the widespread

0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:39.160
<v Speaker 1>fungal infections in North America.

0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:40.160
<v Speaker 2>Love Fungus.

0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.760
<v Speaker 1>They also discuss baths bird's tuberculosis and the surprising history

0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.160
<v Speaker 1>behind this disease is discovery. Wow.

0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's gonna be good. Finally, on Hollywood Land, Jake

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 2>and Zeth tell the story of the legendary Steve McQueen

0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.240
<v Speaker 2>from Beers with Elvis to Charles Manson's hit List. This

0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 2>story never takes its foot off the gas.

0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.959
<v Speaker 1>That's our graceland, Hollywood Land vibe over there, and just

0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.000
<v Speaker 1>for everybody to know, in the merch corner, we have

0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.880
<v Speaker 1>looked around this terrible world of ours and decided to

0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:12.480
<v Speaker 1>officially restock that this is terrible. Keep going mug. You

0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:13.720
<v Speaker 1>asked for it. There.

0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.320
<v Speaker 2>It is blue on blue and it's on both sides now,

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:17.079
<v Speaker 2>which I really love.

0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I love that color combination. It's very nineteen eighty one, totally.

0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.160
<v Speaker 1>I love it. That's a good mug.

0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Also, don't forget my Ontario mug from touring in like

0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.760
<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen. I probably got it at a Starbucks's. Yeah,

0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.199
<v Speaker 1>it's Starbucks for sure, or it was given to us.

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 1>If you gave this to us and you're seeing this

0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 1>right now, please write in and tell us what it

0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 1>was like. Okay, all right, you're first. I'm first today. Wait,

0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.679
<v Speaker 1>it's December eighteen sixteen, so a while ago, a baby

0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.920
<v Speaker 1>girl named Elizabeth is born in Massachusetts in a comfortable

0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 1>household by two parents who can afford to educate their children.

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.439
<v Speaker 1>Her two brothers are sent to all boys schools, while

0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.360
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth will eventually be trained with other young girls to

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.200
<v Speaker 1>someday become school teachers. She is a curious, driven, and

0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.480
<v Speaker 1>exceptionally bright young girl. These are all qualities that would

0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.760
<v Speaker 1>be celebrated if they were displayed by her brothers, but

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about eighteen sixteen. An intellectually gifted girl invites

0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 1>scrutiny and criticism and screams of kill the wit Elizabeth

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.960
<v Speaker 1>will learn the hardest way she can. Society prefers their

0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 1>ladies to be nice and to be quiet, and when

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.280
<v Speaker 1>they're not, when they dare to use their brains to

0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 1>question authority or their husbands, that intelligence will be used

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.360
<v Speaker 1>against them and they will be deemed too dangerous for

0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.600
<v Speaker 1>their own well being. And that usually back then meant

0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:45.080
<v Speaker 1>being institutionalized. When Elizabeth is forcibly committed to a psychiatric institution,

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:50.400
<v Speaker 1>she witnesses and experiences genuine harm, but it also radicalizes

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.880
<v Speaker 1>her and she will begin to keep a diary, writing

0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 1>down everything she sees. And when she finally gets to

0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.640
<v Speaker 1>tell her story, she will not be nice or quiet

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.560
<v Speaker 1>about it. She will change the world. Wow, this is

0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 1>the story of Elizabeth Parsons.

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Where Packard Elizabeth Parsons.

0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Where Packard Packer. She has three last names like a

0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.680
<v Speaker 1>modern day lady. Maren. Read the book The Woman They

0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.800
<v Speaker 1>Could Not Silence by author Kate Moore who wrote The

0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Radium Girls. Oh wow. Yeah, and that's the main source

0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.640
<v Speaker 1>that was used today. Any other source is listed in

0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.760
<v Speaker 1>our show notes, but it's mostly the work of Kate Moore.

0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.920
<v Speaker 1>So Elizabeth Parsons Ware grows up very religious. Her father,

0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 1>Samuel Ware, is a minister with Calvinist leanings, so pretty

0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:42.960
<v Speaker 1>bleak lens of Christianity that says all humans are inherently sinful,

0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.640
<v Speaker 1>and salvation isn't determined by you making good choices or

0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.480
<v Speaker 1>being a good person. It's just kind of randomly what

0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:53.040
<v Speaker 1>God decides based on like I like you, you'll be saved,

0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 1>you won't. Sucks pretty fear inducing at all times, so

0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.280
<v Speaker 1>you kind of can't do anything right. You're always apologizing.

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.640
<v Speaker 1>We've all better there. So the Wares run a very

0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:07.359
<v Speaker 1>god fearing, theologically strict household, and yet they're very progressive

0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.320
<v Speaker 1>about their daughter's educations. For a girl of her era,

0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.800
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth's education is an unusually rigorous one, and it also

0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.840
<v Speaker 1>probably helps that they live near Amherst College, which kind

0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.640
<v Speaker 1>of provides this intellectual backdrop, so that influence is the

0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:25.680
<v Speaker 1>way she sees the world. Of course, by the time

0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.240
<v Speaker 1>eighteen thirty five rolls around, nineteen year old Elizabeth is

0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.680
<v Speaker 1>working as a teacher until her career is interrupted by

0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 1>what doctors will refer to the doctors of the time

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:41.040
<v Speaker 1>will refer to as brain fever. Her symptoms include headaches, chills, fever,

0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.920
<v Speaker 1>and confusion. Today, she would likely be diagnosed with a

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:50.040
<v Speaker 1>viral or a bacterial brain infection like encephalitis or meningitis. Wow,

0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:54.560
<v Speaker 1>those are fully treatable with modern medicine. But it's eighteen

0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:59.440
<v Speaker 1>thirty five, So doctors theorize that Elizabeth's job as a

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.119
<v Speaker 1>teacher has overstimulated her female brain. Hysterical, She's hysterical. She's

0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:08.000
<v Speaker 1>just fucking lost it, which is manifested in these physical

0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.440
<v Speaker 1>symptoms that she has now. Cut to my sister Laura, going,

0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.280
<v Speaker 1>it does drive you insane, Like that's all I can

0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 1>think about. Where it's like, it's true, they were right,

0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:22.520
<v Speaker 1>but she's wrong. So oh that felt great. I've never really,

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:24.880
<v Speaker 1>I've never really taken that to the public station.

0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:25.800
<v Speaker 2>She's never going to hear it.

0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 1>You're wrong, Laura, Yeah, she doesn't. She's not a fan

0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:28.280
<v Speaker 1>of this.

0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Laura, you guys are wrong.

0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.439
<v Speaker 1>You guys have always been wrong, right, Okay. So when

0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.240
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth's father hears about this diagnosis, he requests that his

0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.720
<v Speaker 1>daughter be admitted to the local asylum, believing that the

0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.640
<v Speaker 1>root of her illness is that she's quote used too

0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.879
<v Speaker 1>much mental effort end quote in her line of work,

0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:51.520
<v Speaker 1>too too much mental effort. The hot springs really hard?

0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Should do this from a hot spring?

0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 1>Ooh, we absolutely should. There's two ducks that just hang

0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:58.800
<v Speaker 1>out the whole time with you, and they're not scared

0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:00.640
<v Speaker 1>of you because they're filled with lithium.

0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:02.399
<v Speaker 2>I want ducks to be my friends. Now, that's my

0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.040
<v Speaker 2>new like yeah, bird obsession.

0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:05.399
<v Speaker 1>It's guygirl duck couple.

0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:06.760
<v Speaker 2>And they're like cool with everyone.

0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.960
<v Speaker 1>They don't care. They're just so relaxed and filled with

0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.200
<v Speaker 1>magnesium and all the minerals you need for your nervous

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.359
<v Speaker 1>system to be Okay, I sold this to me completely. Okay, great,

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.960
<v Speaker 1>we'll get your little gift certifically. So this, of course,

0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.760
<v Speaker 1>will be entirely against her will, obviously, and according to Elizabeth,

0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.919
<v Speaker 1>she will later write a needless and unkind decision. She

0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.400
<v Speaker 1>will spend six weeks in this asylum, subjected to all

0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.879
<v Speaker 1>kinds of archaic treatments, including at one point blood letting.

0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh so it's not any kind of like hospital that

0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:39.800
<v Speaker 1>we would know today.

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Right, they didn't have lobotomies yet, right.

0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't think so. I would love to Everything in

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 1>me wants to say no. Of course not, but I don't.

0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I want to ask if they had electric shock therapy,

0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.439
<v Speaker 2>but I don't even know if they had electricity.

0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.159
<v Speaker 1>I don't, so I shouldn't. I think it was like

0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.160
<v Speaker 1>the fresh new thing around town, electricity, But I don't

0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.720
<v Speaker 1>know either. What we know is that she does not

0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.359
<v Speaker 1>write about this first time she's hospitalized in any way,

0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:08.040
<v Speaker 1>but it's a nineteenth century mental asylum. Her physical symptoms

0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.720
<v Speaker 1>do start to improve, though, so she's finally discharged because,

0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.360
<v Speaker 1>of course, she is treated and basically her brain infection

0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.680
<v Speaker 1>goes away. But by the point that she gets out,

0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:22.760
<v Speaker 1>she firmly believes that her recovery is incidental and that

0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 1>her treatment by these asylum doctors has actually only made

0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.520
<v Speaker 1>her worse mentally and emotionally. So a couple of years

0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.800
<v Speaker 1>pass after that, and then in eighteen thirty nine, when

0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.680
<v Speaker 1>she's twenty two, she gets set up with a friend

0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 1>of her father's named Redie.

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:37.560
<v Speaker 2>For this.

0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.320
<v Speaker 1>Oh sorry, we have a picture of Elizabeth. Here's her og.

0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.200
<v Speaker 2>She does not look happy. That's a dour face.

0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.680
<v Speaker 1>All she wanted to do was be mean to children

0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.560
<v Speaker 1>and hit them with a stick while she taught them Latin.

0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.120
<v Speaker 2>She's like someone unzip my dress. It's so tight.

0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.560
<v Speaker 1>Please, I'm just upset about it. The idea that you

0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.119
<v Speaker 1>would get a physical infection or a virus, and suddenly

0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.280
<v Speaker 1>it's like, sorry, crazy, go to the insane asylum.

0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.359
<v Speaker 2>Your father or your husband says you're crazy.

0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:06.240
<v Speaker 1>So that's all that's needed. That's it.

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 1>So she gets set up with a friend of her

0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:13.040
<v Speaker 1>father's named Theophilus Packard. Can we take a look at

0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:19.880
<v Speaker 1>theophilis whoa, Yeah, this is when he's young. No, this

0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:21.040
<v Speaker 1>is after he sees the ghost.

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.600
<v Speaker 2>He looks like Planet of the Apes where they like

0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.280
<v Speaker 2>put a suit on the apes.

0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:30.480
<v Speaker 1>And also I think it's the chin strap beard. This

0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.560
<v Speaker 1>is the final argument against the chin strap beard. I

0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.440
<v Speaker 1>know guys do it because they're like there was more left. Yeah,

0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:38.600
<v Speaker 1>there used to be a lot. Now we're down to

0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.200
<v Speaker 1>this one. And the answer is firm. Norah, Please don't.

0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.040
<v Speaker 2>Trying to see if you'd be hot without it. But

0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:45.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't think well.

0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.399
<v Speaker 1>Also, he's taken the chin strap beard to a totally

0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.800
<v Speaker 1>upsetting level where it's under his chin but grown out,

0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.400
<v Speaker 1>so it looks like he's wearing a children's lion costume.

0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.440
<v Speaker 2>You think it smells like is that so they can

0:20:57.480 --> 0:20:58.359
<v Speaker 2>eat soup better?

0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.800
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's so that he can worship the Lord better.

0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:07.640
<v Speaker 1>Because he is like her father, a Calvinist minister, and

0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.720
<v Speaker 1>fourteen years older than her. He's thirty seven. He is

0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.679
<v Speaker 1>not particularly romantic. I know that's going to shock you.

0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.680
<v Speaker 1>He's not all about that relationship. And in fact, later

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.160
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth will write that during their courtship he quote did

0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.800
<v Speaker 1>not seem to love me much. Yeah, who sounds about right.

0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.160
<v Speaker 1>She does go on to say that she marries him

0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 1>in part to make her father happy, but they are

0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.600
<v Speaker 1>not a match, so author Kate Moore writes, quote, their

0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.439
<v Speaker 1>characters were as opposite as it was possible to get.

0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:41.800
<v Speaker 1>Where Elizabeth was vibrant, sociable and curious, Theophilus was gloomy and,

0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 1>in his own words, dull. He said he was dull.

0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:47.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, always trust the guy when I tell you what

0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 2>they are.

0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.680
<v Speaker 1>He's like, Look, don't get fooled by my way back

0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:51.639
<v Speaker 1>chin strap beard.

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.520
<v Speaker 2>I know I seem whimsical because of this fucking.

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.880
<v Speaker 1>This was just an accident. Yeah, what if he couldn't

0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:02.440
<v Speaker 1>grote beard hair on his chin? It started back there. Okay,

0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.240
<v Speaker 1>So for years Elizabeth endures a marriage that she will

0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:10.720
<v Speaker 1>later describe as quote love strangling the worst. She spends

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:14.040
<v Speaker 1>that relationship constantly tempering your own thoughts and feelings to

0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:16.960
<v Speaker 1>keep peace in the household. She has a lot of children,

0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:20.840
<v Speaker 1>and she moves at the whim of her husband's ministry career.

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.000
<v Speaker 1>He is always the focus of everyone's life, because how

0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:26.000
<v Speaker 1>could it not be.

0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:28.600
<v Speaker 2>He turns heads when he walks in the door.

0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.760
<v Speaker 1>He looks like he invented, like grape juice or something.

0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.400
<v Speaker 1>He looks like something from the old, like try to clean,

0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:37.320
<v Speaker 1>like a disgusting prune on it.

0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.240
<v Speaker 2>Ye, He's like, it works, it makes you buytolity, it

0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 2>affects your clean And always talking about a spleen like

0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 2>he won't shut up.

0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:47.040
<v Speaker 1>That a spleen. He's like, listen, I'm dull, but your

0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:48.359
<v Speaker 1>spleen will be clean.

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Clean is the heart of every malady.

0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.639
<v Speaker 1>Of every chin beard. In eighteen forty eight, the first

0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.840
<v Speaker 1>women's rights convention ever held in the US, which was

0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:01.080
<v Speaker 1>the Seneca Falls Convention, takes place to New York and

0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:05.320
<v Speaker 1>activists like Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Lucretia Mott are like

0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.560
<v Speaker 1>the central players of this event. It's a watershed moment

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.440
<v Speaker 1>in the broader movement for women's rights in the United States.

0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.800
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth is now in her early thirties. She doesn't get

0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.439
<v Speaker 1>to go to this, but she hears about it, and

0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.680
<v Speaker 1>she hears the messages of women's empowerment that come out

0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:24.040
<v Speaker 1>of it. It resonates with her. She is a decade

0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:28.480
<v Speaker 1>into this miserable, dull, loveless marriage, and she begins to

0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:31.280
<v Speaker 1>test the social limits of her role, not only as

0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:34.200
<v Speaker 1>a mother, but as a preacher's wife. So she takes

0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:37.360
<v Speaker 1>on this is the ultimate like get out of jail free.

0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.879
<v Speaker 1>She starts doing missionary work, so she gets out of

0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:43.880
<v Speaker 1>the household. She's like, it's for the Lord by, It's

0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:45.760
<v Speaker 1>what we're all supposed to be doing. And she gets

0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:47.959
<v Speaker 1>to be out in the real world. And once she

0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:51.320
<v Speaker 1>gets out into the real world, she starts examining her

0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 1>own faith. And this is the time where spiritualism is very,

0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.760
<v Speaker 1>very popular in the United States, which is the belief

0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:01.720
<v Speaker 1>the living can communicate with the dead, and being raised

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:06.399
<v Speaker 1>in the Calvinism end of Christianity, she's drawn to theologies

0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:11.840
<v Speaker 1>that are more empathetic and mystical and humanistic. She even

0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:14.840
<v Speaker 1>attends a seance where she claims that she spoke with

0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.679
<v Speaker 1>her late mother. Wow. So listen to episode three sixty

0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:21.359
<v Speaker 1>three landed in Marshmallows if you want to hear about

0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Harry Houdini's fight against spiritualism.

0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:25.119
<v Speaker 2>That was a good one because.

0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:27.479
<v Speaker 1>He didn't like it. So for most other women at

0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:30.959
<v Speaker 1>that time, that kind of dalliance into spiritualism was what

0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:33.920
<v Speaker 1>was happening. It probably would have been fine. But because

0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:38.200
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth's husband is a rigid nineteenth century Calvinist minister, her

0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.199
<v Speaker 1>spiritual journey puts a huge strain on their marriage. But

0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:44.000
<v Speaker 1>she doesn't want to hide her beliefs anymore. Basically, she's

0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:46.159
<v Speaker 1>just trapped and she's like, whatever, I'm going to do

0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.600
<v Speaker 1>what I want. So in their ultra religious social circle,

0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:53.359
<v Speaker 1>which is probably just all the people at her husband's church,

0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:56.520
<v Speaker 1>they're just watching as the minister's wife dabbles in the

0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:58.920
<v Speaker 1>heretical like the saance.

0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:00.760
<v Speaker 2>It can't, it can't, it's not allowed.

0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:05.520
<v Speaker 1>And so at home, this I guess hobby is challenging

0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:09.920
<v Speaker 1>Theophilis's values on everything from how to raise their six

0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:13.920
<v Speaker 1>children to major issues of the day like slavery. Elizabeth

0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:18.680
<v Speaker 1>identifies as an abolitionist, although a very flawed white eighteen

0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:23.240
<v Speaker 1>hundreds one got it very self serving, but overall, especially

0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 1>like trying to put it on the table with her husband,

0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:29.399
<v Speaker 1>who is ten times worse in every direction than her,

0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:32.440
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't like it. She is an avid supporter of

0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:35.360
<v Speaker 1>John Brown, the man who led the anti slavery raid

0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:38.240
<v Speaker 1>at Harper's Ferry in eighteen fifty nine and was executed

0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:41.439
<v Speaker 1>for it. She's a believer in this movement and her

0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:47.119
<v Speaker 1>husband is mortified. He, of course, unsurprisingly finds his wife's

0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 1>politics increasingly embarrassing. She becomes so disillusioned that she actually

0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:55.679
<v Speaker 1>leaves her husband's church because she's like, how could you

0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:57.639
<v Speaker 1>say you're of God and be doing this to people?

0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:00.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's such a fuck you. Yeah, my wife

0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:02.919
<v Speaker 2>leaving preacher's wife.

0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:05.480
<v Speaker 1>You saw the Whitney used To movie, you know what

0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:09.240
<v Speaker 1>it's like. So leaving the churches, she is just piling

0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:12.879
<v Speaker 1>up the humiliations for him, their marriages and shambles. But

0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:15.560
<v Speaker 1>of course, divorces off the table. He would never do

0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 1>it morally, and she is deathly afraid that she'll lose

0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:22.359
<v Speaker 1>custody of her children. Then her husband of twenty one

0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:30.520
<v Speaker 1>years does the unthinkable dies. No, No, it's close though,

0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:34.119
<v Speaker 1>but not bad for him. It's eighteen sixty They're living

0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:37.159
<v Speaker 1>in Jacksonville, Illinois, and one night, in the middle of

0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:40.320
<v Speaker 1>the night, Elizabeth is taken from her home by two

0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:44.320
<v Speaker 1>strange men and brought to the Illinois State Asylum and Hospital.

0:26:44.600 --> 0:26:47.720
<v Speaker 2>Wow, he's just like, here's the problem. Let me get

0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:48.119
<v Speaker 2>rid of it.

0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're so embarrassing by contradicting me that you must

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:54.239
<v Speaker 1>be insane, and so you have to be committed. And

0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:57.560
<v Speaker 1>it's right there in Jacksonville. Elizabeth has no idea what's

0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:01.040
<v Speaker 1>going on. She remembers being in the reception room hours later,

0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.760
<v Speaker 1>begging to be released, and then she sees her husband

0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:07.960
<v Speaker 1>through a window and realizes, like he's there to confirm

0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:10.879
<v Speaker 1>this is happening and make sure it happens. Chilling. She

0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:13.399
<v Speaker 1>will later write in her journal that he looked at

0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:17.440
<v Speaker 1>her with quote one last look of satisfied delight. Never

0:27:17.480 --> 0:27:20.919
<v Speaker 1>had I seen his face more radiant with joy. Damn,

0:27:21.480 --> 0:27:24.000
<v Speaker 1>He's like, she's gone, Can you imagine that face? Can

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:26.919
<v Speaker 1>we see the face again? Never had I seen the

0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:29.359
<v Speaker 1>face really so radiant with joy.

0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:31.400
<v Speaker 2>That's why it doesn't look like a joyful person.

0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:32.000
<v Speaker 1>It's not.

0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:33.880
<v Speaker 2>He looks a little stunned.

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.960
<v Speaker 1>It would actually probably be very upsetting to see him.

0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>That guy radiant, just seeing that face through a window

0:27:40.160 --> 0:27:42.000
<v Speaker 2>and I think, like that's a ghost or whatever.

0:27:42.080 --> 0:27:46.800
<v Speaker 1>But to see him happy, he's like heat, he's finally gone.

0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:51.359
<v Speaker 1>I can get back to my books and ledges and

0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:55.040
<v Speaker 1>God and of course God. So Theophilis commits his forty

0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:57.399
<v Speaker 1>four year old wife to an asylum, telling the doctors

0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:01.440
<v Speaker 1>there that she is quote slightly insane. His proof is

0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:05.280
<v Speaker 1>we all, I mean, we'd all be in there, this

0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:08.600
<v Speaker 1>whole building of people would be in there, thank God together.

0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:12.280
<v Speaker 1>His proof is her leaving his Calvinist church and disavowing

0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:15.280
<v Speaker 1>his worldview, and Illinois state law at the time says

0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:18.320
<v Speaker 1>no problem passed her. All husbands have the right to

0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:21.720
<v Speaker 1>institutionalize their wives without any medical proof that they are

0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:25.119
<v Speaker 1>mentally ill in any way. Yeah, and it was just

0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:30.000
<v Speaker 1>so recently, I know. So as we know, Elizabeth has

0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:32.080
<v Speaker 1>been through this before. It's what her father did to

0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:35.119
<v Speaker 1>her when she's a teenager, and of course that works

0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:38.800
<v Speaker 1>against her and reaffirms her diagnosis. The well respected forty

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:41.200
<v Speaker 1>three year old superintendent of this hospital is a man

0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:44.959
<v Speaker 1>named doctor Andrew MacFarlane, and he does seem to agree

0:28:45.000 --> 0:28:48.840
<v Speaker 1>with Theophilis's assessment that Elizabeth's actions over the last few

0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.440
<v Speaker 1>years suggest that she is quote slightly insane.

0:28:52.120 --> 0:28:55.840
<v Speaker 2>Slightly insane is so cute, It's like, can you that

0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:56.560
<v Speaker 2>would be great?

0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Now? I mean, she's not raving in the streets, we understand,

0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:02.960
<v Speaker 1>but she certainly isn't down at church nodding along with

0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:06.760
<v Speaker 1>her husband's beard. Elizabeth will write that she has been

0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:13.240
<v Speaker 1>quote placed there by her husband for thinking end quote.

0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:16.400
<v Speaker 1>But her insistence that she's saying, of course only since

0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:19.880
<v Speaker 1>seems to affirm to doctor McFarland that she's not the

0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:24.200
<v Speaker 1>old trick screaming I'm insane Yeah never works. Yeah, I'm saying,

0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:27.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying and then you say it five hundred more times.

0:29:27.800 --> 0:29:31.080
<v Speaker 1>So she's committed with no clear discharge date, and so

0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:34.960
<v Speaker 1>she begins to write, and from her very thorough diaries,

0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:37.960
<v Speaker 1>she describes her time in there, yearning not only for

0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:41.000
<v Speaker 1>her freedom but for her children. She is in agony.

0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:44.240
<v Speaker 1>Her friends on the outside are advocating for her release,

0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:47.680
<v Speaker 1>but they are powerless, of course, because of the laws

0:29:47.720 --> 0:29:50.320
<v Speaker 1>of the time, so they can argue all they want.

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth is certainly not alone in her experience, though she

0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:57.000
<v Speaker 1>documents the leagues of other women that she meets in

0:29:57.040 --> 0:30:00.840
<v Speaker 1>the asylum and who've also been unfairly institutionalized by the

0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:04.200
<v Speaker 1>men in their lives. She also records details on patients

0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:08.480
<v Speaker 1>who are genuinely unwell and how the staff are clearly

0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:12.000
<v Speaker 1>unequipped to treat them and are often abusive. It is

0:30:12.040 --> 0:30:16.600
<v Speaker 1>a miserable place. It's overcrowded, resources are stretched thin, there's

0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:20.320
<v Speaker 1>high staff turnover. Some words are filthy. There are puddles

0:30:20.320 --> 0:30:24.000
<v Speaker 1>of human waste left on the unclean floor. Every room

0:30:24.040 --> 0:30:27.120
<v Speaker 1>seems to have been stripped of the smallest possible comfort.

0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:30.920
<v Speaker 1>Patients only get to sit on hardwood benches, and the

0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:33.760
<v Speaker 1>bedding is as scratching, itchy and terrible as it could

0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 1>possibly be. And so Elizabeth writes all this down. She

0:30:36.560 --> 0:30:39.320
<v Speaker 1>takes it all down, and she writes about all of

0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:43.280
<v Speaker 1>it in detail. But the darkest testimony involves the extreme

0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:47.520
<v Speaker 1>abuse that she experiences and that she witnesses other patients

0:30:47.560 --> 0:30:51.400
<v Speaker 1>being subjected to at the hands of asylum employees. So

0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:54.640
<v Speaker 1>you've got to figure probably a lot of these employees

0:30:54.680 --> 0:30:58.160
<v Speaker 1>were totally unqualified on trains, They're just thrown in there,

0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:00.480
<v Speaker 1>like make sure they're quiet, or makes sure they eat

0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:03.920
<v Speaker 1>or go to bed. From there, the exploitation of that power.

0:31:04.520 --> 0:31:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Women are injured as they're violently stuffed into strait jackets.

0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 1>They're beaten for being unruly, they're choked. Sometimes Elizabeth tries

0:31:12.400 --> 0:31:15.160
<v Speaker 1>to intervene, but she writes that once, while trying to

0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:17.560
<v Speaker 1>help a patient that's being man handled by a much

0:31:17.640 --> 0:31:21.479
<v Speaker 1>larger attendant, he turns and grabs Elizabeth and drags her

0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:24.080
<v Speaker 1>through the hallways back to her room by her arm

0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:28.080
<v Speaker 1>and locks her in so she can't interfere anymore. She

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.360
<v Speaker 1>writes about a patient being starved as punishment, and when

0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:34.120
<v Speaker 1>she sneaks that woman some food and aid finds out

0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:37.040
<v Speaker 1>and pulls a knife on her and holds it over

0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:41.760
<v Speaker 1>her head. Holy shit, so it's just it's Mayhem in there.

0:31:42.120 --> 0:31:45.120
<v Speaker 1>She also writes about an assistant choking a young patient

0:31:45.320 --> 0:31:48.200
<v Speaker 1>and one of his fingernails is so sharp it slashes

0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:52.040
<v Speaker 1>the young patient's throat. When the attendant backs off, Elizabeth

0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 1>dresses the patient's wound with a piece of her own clothing,

0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:58.160
<v Speaker 1>and she keeps that bandage, and she writes that the

0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:01.800
<v Speaker 1>scrap is quote red with the blood of this innocent girl,

0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:04.920
<v Speaker 1>as proof of this kind of abuse in the Jacksonville

0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Insane Asylum. Oh my god, she terrifying. Yeah, and she's

0:32:09.680 --> 0:32:12.480
<v Speaker 1>just kind of like, I'm just going to put it down.

0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:16.560
<v Speaker 1>She writes extensively about the arrival of bath tubs too.

0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:19.560
<v Speaker 1>Oh no, And we talked about this a little bit

0:32:19.560 --> 0:32:20.320
<v Speaker 1>with Nelly Blyig.

0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:21.040
<v Speaker 3>So.

0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:24.840
<v Speaker 1>At first, they're introduced as a more hygienic and dignifying

0:32:24.920 --> 0:32:28.280
<v Speaker 1>alternative to the sponge baths that were usually given to patients,

0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:32.760
<v Speaker 1>but Elizabeth describes them as quickly becoming instruments of torture,

0:32:33.240 --> 0:32:35.560
<v Speaker 1>used to punish girls and women for things as small

0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:40.120
<v Speaker 1>as quote silly behavior and laughing from her bed. Elizabeth

0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:42.640
<v Speaker 1>writes that she can hear the patients begging for mercy

0:32:42.680 --> 0:32:46.520
<v Speaker 1>as attendants throw them into the tubs, sometimes with quote

0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:49.680
<v Speaker 1>their hands and feet tied and if they resisted, a

0:32:49.720 --> 0:32:53.040
<v Speaker 1>straight jacket was placed upon them end quote like just

0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:56.320
<v Speaker 1>sadistic people. This is not therapy in any way, And

0:32:56.360 --> 0:32:59.680
<v Speaker 1>this is no and fa sadism. It's sadism because they're

0:32:59.720 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 1>held underwater repeatedly for long stretches of time, and sometimes

0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:08.560
<v Speaker 1>the water's freezing or it's scalding. Haunts and the only

0:33:08.600 --> 0:33:12.960
<v Speaker 1>way that Elizabeth knows that the patient survives this basically

0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:16.520
<v Speaker 1>torture slash treatment is when they come back up out

0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 1>of the water screaming. Fuck. So she is in this

0:33:21.400 --> 0:33:24.720
<v Speaker 1>situation and in this hospital for months, and of course

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:28.640
<v Speaker 1>it's deteriorating both her mental and her physical health because

0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:31.400
<v Speaker 1>it's a living hell. As an act of resistance, she

0:33:31.440 --> 0:33:33.960
<v Speaker 1>does her best to keep her mind sharp, so she

0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:37.600
<v Speaker 1>commits to a routine of regular exercise and prayer. This

0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:39.880
<v Speaker 1>is you and me in jumping rope. This is how

0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:40.320
<v Speaker 1>we're going to.

0:33:40.360 --> 0:33:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Do it, keeping sane in this fucked up world.

0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:46.360
<v Speaker 1>As we jump rope or on a mini trampoline. We're

0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:46.880
<v Speaker 1>going to be.

0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Like, Lord, Lord, Lord, sharpen our brain.

0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:51.800
<v Speaker 1>Let's sharpen this shit up and get it together. She

0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:54.560
<v Speaker 1>writes in her journal, quote I am becoming so extremely

0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:57.440
<v Speaker 1>sensitive to wrong and abuse that I cannot or shall

0:33:57.480 --> 0:34:01.120
<v Speaker 1>not witness it without interference, even if you put me

0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:05.440
<v Speaker 1>into fetters for it. End quote. Wow. She is trapped

0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.160
<v Speaker 1>in this asylum for three years total, Oh my god,

0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:11.719
<v Speaker 1>until she's finally released in eighteen sixty three due to

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:15.080
<v Speaker 1>sustaining pressure from her older children, who are now are

0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:18.399
<v Speaker 1>either in their late teens or early twenties. So they

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:22.200
<v Speaker 1>just basically have been calling and pressuring doctor McFarlane and

0:34:22.239 --> 0:34:27.960
<v Speaker 1>the other asylum officials like armaphones. No, sorry, they've been calling.

0:34:28.480 --> 0:34:34.359
<v Speaker 1>They've been they have been putting pressure. Sorry doctor no, no, no,

0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:36.840
<v Speaker 1>that's the good catch. They have been putting pressure on

0:34:37.440 --> 0:34:41.760
<v Speaker 1>doctor McFarlane and on the other asylum officials basically saying,

0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:43.680
<v Speaker 1>our mother is not crazy and you know it, and

0:34:43.719 --> 0:34:46.800
<v Speaker 1>get her out of there. But also the asylum officials

0:34:46.840 --> 0:34:49.759
<v Speaker 1>and the workers are getting sick of dealing with Elizabeth

0:34:49.840 --> 0:34:53.719
<v Speaker 1>and her interference because she really is fighting back. Essentially,

0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:58.040
<v Speaker 1>they officially declare her incurably insane, but then release her

0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:02.160
<v Speaker 1>so it's not a celebration because she is still married

0:35:02.360 --> 0:35:05.680
<v Speaker 1>to Theophilis, and so when she gets home, according to

0:35:05.719 --> 0:35:08.680
<v Speaker 1>her journals, he locks her in the nursery of their

0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:14.759
<v Speaker 1>homes the whole time. Are you thinking about the whole

0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:17.960
<v Speaker 1>little just now, just now, full credit, then thank you,

0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:22.480
<v Speaker 1>full credit. And apparently nurseries were way smaller in houses

0:35:22.480 --> 0:35:22.879
<v Speaker 1>back there.

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 2>They were like in the fucking attic, like the attic room.

0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:29.160
<v Speaker 1>With the it's carry potter ship. He's he's locking her

0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:32.160
<v Speaker 1>in the smallest place he possibly can't. She manages to

0:35:32.200 --> 0:35:35.200
<v Speaker 1>sneak a letter out of the nursery window to a friend,

0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:38.319
<v Speaker 1>outlining exactly how she's been confined against her will.

0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 2>So she's just locked in there, yeah, and she had okay.

0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:45.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just like whatever if it's I mean, imagine, it's

0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:47.600
<v Speaker 1>just like, you want to give me some soup? Sounds good?

0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Could we please do that? Like whatever? This guy fucking beardo,

0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:54.239
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to see it. Don't bring it back

0:35:54.719 --> 0:35:57.399
<v Speaker 1>outlining exactly how she's been confined against her will under

0:35:57.400 --> 0:36:00.920
<v Speaker 1>the false pretense that she's insane. That friend and delivers

0:36:00.960 --> 0:36:04.399
<v Speaker 1>the letter to a local judge, and finally, for some

0:36:04.480 --> 0:36:08.360
<v Speaker 1>reason and somehow it works. For the first time, the

0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:12.760
<v Speaker 1>Awfulis's behavior is seen as legally problematic. While a husband

0:36:12.800 --> 0:36:15.959
<v Speaker 1>can easily have his wife committed to an asylum, it's

0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.840
<v Speaker 1>not as defensible to lock that same wife up in

0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:20.000
<v Speaker 1>a little room in your house.

0:36:20.120 --> 0:36:25.720
<v Speaker 2>There are boundaries, people, we're here, let's just run around.

0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:28.400
<v Speaker 1>There's a rocking chair on the front porch. It's so

0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:33.880
<v Speaker 1>nicely you keep all that abuse to the asylum, okay.

0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:37.200
<v Speaker 1>So in January of eighteen sixty four, Elizabeth goes to

0:36:37.239 --> 0:36:39.680
<v Speaker 1>trial to establish her mental state once and for all.

0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:41.319
<v Speaker 1>She's now forty eight years old.

0:36:41.560 --> 0:36:42.840
<v Speaker 2>She's like, can I go to sleep?

0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:46.239
<v Speaker 1>She is like, but probably in the perfect like menopausal

0:36:46.280 --> 0:36:48.120
<v Speaker 1>state to be like, let's do this thing.

0:36:48.320 --> 0:36:50.040
<v Speaker 2>She's also like an old late I mean.

0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:53.600
<v Speaker 1>No, no, say it. I mean, because forty eight in

0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:58.480
<v Speaker 1>today's money, she's one hundred and seventeen. Various physicians and

0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:01.799
<v Speaker 1>family members, friends and acquaintance go on record in the

0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:04.719
<v Speaker 1>courtroom to state that she is a sane human being,

0:37:05.239 --> 0:37:08.240
<v Speaker 1>and after five days of testimony but only seven minutes

0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:12.360
<v Speaker 1>of deliberating, the jury deems Elizabeth Packard to be sane.

0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:14.279
<v Speaker 1>And you know it is an all male jury. I

0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:18.560
<v Speaker 1>mean it would have to be. I believe Neckbeard's being like,

0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:22.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to give this woman her freedom, but

0:37:22.120 --> 0:37:25.959
<v Speaker 1>I've asked With that, Theophilis immediately skips down and takes

0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:29.440
<v Speaker 1>their three youngest children with him. Elizabeth is left with

0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:32.600
<v Speaker 1>nothing but the clothes on her back. Luckily, she does

0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:35.480
<v Speaker 1>have her older children and her friends to lean on,

0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:38.120
<v Speaker 1>but of course she is forever changed by the years

0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:42.759
<v Speaker 1>of mistreatment. So she channels her anger into advocacy work,

0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:46.160
<v Speaker 1>and she starts by advocating for herself. She takes her

0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:50.160
<v Speaker 1>husband to court in both Illinois and Massachusetts, where he's

0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:54.560
<v Speaker 1>currently living, and she sues him for damages. Damn, I

0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:59.319
<v Speaker 1>mean in the mid eighteen hundreds in the is electricity real?

0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Yet it's that long ago. A few years after that,

0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:07.239
<v Speaker 1>in her early fifties, she finally wins custody of her

0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:10.040
<v Speaker 1>youngest children, and then she sets out on a campaign

0:38:10.080 --> 0:38:12.840
<v Speaker 1>for the rights of both married women and patients in

0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:16.880
<v Speaker 1>psychiatric institutions. Wow. Her most powerful tool is her writing.

0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:20.200
<v Speaker 1>Her diaries capture the horrors of the asylum so vividly

0:38:20.520 --> 0:38:23.680
<v Speaker 1>that when she publishes several books based on them, the

0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:28.720
<v Speaker 1>public laps it up. She becomes increasingly famous. She travels

0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:31.719
<v Speaker 1>all through the United States sharing her story, and she

0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:36.000
<v Speaker 1>eventually secures real changes in the law. She's said to

0:38:36.040 --> 0:38:39.279
<v Speaker 1>have inspired the passage of over thirty different laws in

0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:43.000
<v Speaker 1>various states, ones that better protect women's personal assets when

0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:46.600
<v Speaker 1>they get married, and an Illinois law that guarantees a

0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:50.720
<v Speaker 1>trial for anyone unwillingly being committed, which could have prevented

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth's own institutionalization if it had existed years earlier. So

0:38:56.000 --> 0:39:00.520
<v Speaker 1>now it's eighteen sixty seven, and Elizabeth's efforts also result

0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:04.319
<v Speaker 1>in the state investigation of doctor Andrew McFarland and the

0:39:04.400 --> 0:39:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Illinois State Asylum in Hospital, which stretches on for seven months.

0:39:09.600 --> 0:39:12.920
<v Speaker 1>In the end, investigators recommend he be removed from his post,

0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:16.960
<v Speaker 1>but for unknown reasons, this doesn't happen, and he holds

0:39:16.960 --> 0:39:19.839
<v Speaker 1>the job for three more years, at which point he

0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:24.640
<v Speaker 1>willingly leaves to open his own private asylum. In eighteen

0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:27.840
<v Speaker 1>ninety seven, when she is eighty years old, Elizabeth Parsons

0:39:27.880 --> 0:39:31.719
<v Speaker 1>ware Packard dies suddenly of a strangulated hernia. She is

0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:34.920
<v Speaker 1>buried in Chicago. After decades spent writing books and giving

0:39:34.920 --> 0:39:37.600
<v Speaker 1>in passion lectures on the horrors of the asylum and

0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:40.040
<v Speaker 1>the women who were sent there and who suffered there.

0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:42.640
<v Speaker 1>Her legacy as a courageous woman who stood up and

0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:46.719
<v Speaker 1>spoke out has endured. As for doctor McFarland, despite the

0:39:46.760 --> 0:39:50.680
<v Speaker 1>reputational damage caused by Elizabeth's advocacy work, not to mention

0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:54.120
<v Speaker 1>the investigation into the asylum under his leadership. When a

0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:57.360
<v Speaker 1>new state run psychiatric center opens in Springfield, Illinois in

0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:01.239
<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixty eight, it's named in his honor, cool the

0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:05.160
<v Speaker 1>mcfarlande Mental Health Center. But when author Kate Moore's book

0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:07.560
<v Speaker 1>The Woman They Could Not Silence is published in twenty

0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:11.640
<v Speaker 1>twenty one. It brings renewed attention to Elizabeth Parson Where's story,

0:40:12.000 --> 0:40:15.360
<v Speaker 1>and in twenty twenty three, Illinois Governor J. B. Pritzker

0:40:15.480 --> 0:40:19.600
<v Speaker 1>announces that center will be renamed the Elizabeth Parsons were

0:40:19.760 --> 0:40:21.440
<v Speaker 1>Packard Mental Health Center.

0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:23.160
<v Speaker 2>That is amazing.

0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it just happened. And it's because of author

0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:30.520
<v Speaker 1>Kate Moore and her work. And of course Elizabeth Parsons

0:40:30.520 --> 0:40:34.560
<v Speaker 1>were Packard's work where she was just blindly in the dark,

0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:36.759
<v Speaker 1>going this is wrong. I need to change this.

0:40:37.200 --> 0:40:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Somebody, dude such a strong like they could have named

0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:42.440
<v Speaker 2>it something generic to just taking his name off of it.

0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:45.680
<v Speaker 2>But instead of naming it after this evil doctor, they

0:40:45.800 --> 0:40:50.160
<v Speaker 2>named it after a woman who fought him. Yeah, fought

0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:51.240
<v Speaker 2>his evil. That's amazing.

0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:54.080
<v Speaker 1>And also it's like, was he evil? I feel like

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:56.960
<v Speaker 1>the naming thing is like their way of saying, but

0:40:57.040 --> 0:41:00.239
<v Speaker 1>he did such great work, which always happens, but he

0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:03.719
<v Speaker 1>didn't according to the people he was doing the work on.

0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:07.680
<v Speaker 1>And that's the key is that anybody can claim that,

0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:11.439
<v Speaker 1>or their constituents can claim it, or their boys down

0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:14.440
<v Speaker 1>at the Elks Lodge. But how about the people that

0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:18.640
<v Speaker 1>were there and sitting in their own fucking piles of

0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:25.359
<v Speaker 1>feces being tortured. Okay, So of this decision, author Kate

0:41:25.440 --> 0:41:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Moore has said, quote, I think she would be personally

0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:31.960
<v Speaker 1>grateful that she and her work have been recognized when

0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:34.279
<v Speaker 1>for so much of her life she was denigrated and

0:41:34.360 --> 0:41:37.400
<v Speaker 1>dumbed down. But I also think she would say the

0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:40.640
<v Speaker 1>work is not done. End quote. And that's the story

0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:43.680
<v Speaker 1>of mental health advocate Elizabeth Parsons wear packard.

0:41:44.160 --> 0:41:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I didn't as slightly what is it slightly insane?

0:41:49.320 --> 0:41:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Slightly insane?

0:41:50.280 --> 0:41:51.759
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that about her at all.

0:41:52.160 --> 0:41:55.399
<v Speaker 1>Amazing And also it's a mental health awareness month, that's right,

0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:58.319
<v Speaker 1>So that's what the whole vibe is about. Yes, good job,

0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.960
<v Speaker 1>thank you. And here's Kate moore book. She's an amazing author.

0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:02.879
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, the.

0:42:02.760 --> 0:42:06.879
<v Speaker 1>One they could not silence. Very cool, so cool, good job,

0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:09.880
<v Speaker 1>that was great, thank you. That was harrowing the idea

0:42:09.880 --> 0:42:11.680
<v Speaker 1>that there are this many women who had to go

0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:16.560
<v Speaker 1>either undercover or just were committed to insane asylums and

0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:18.480
<v Speaker 1>then had to do the work on the other end

0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.879
<v Speaker 1>once they were released totally and I mean you can't

0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:24.040
<v Speaker 1>just send me here because you don't like that I'm talking.

0:42:24.200 --> 0:42:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean it says something about like, you know, because

0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:29.600
<v Speaker 2>she knew how to write. All the women who were

0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:32.839
<v Speaker 2>not given an education, who couldn't write about their experiences

0:42:32.920 --> 0:42:35.160
<v Speaker 2>or send a note through a window to their friend

0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:37.800
<v Speaker 2>to tell them what was going on with them, that's.

0:42:37.680 --> 0:42:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Right, you know, they could only raise their voices, which

0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:42.919
<v Speaker 1>then immediately qualified them as being slightly.

0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:45.280
<v Speaker 2>Insane, which is why they didn't want to educate women.

0:42:45.880 --> 0:42:49.720
<v Speaker 1>Then we would fucking that's why. That's why our school

0:42:49.800 --> 0:42:52.640
<v Speaker 1>systems are in the state that they are, because if

0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:57.600
<v Speaker 1>nobody knows anything, then weren't going to be good with it. Okay,

0:42:57.640 --> 0:43:03.880
<v Speaker 1>great job, thank you. I mean if you insist, I guess.

0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:04.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean I don't have to.

0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:06.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean I could walk out right now.

0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:09.400
<v Speaker 2>How do they get so disgusting? And how do you

0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:10.160
<v Speaker 2>keep them clean?

0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:14.120
<v Speaker 1>You never can. You're always wiping your glasses on your shirt,

0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:16.680
<v Speaker 1>the thing they tell you not to do. Oh really,

0:43:16.880 --> 0:43:19.200
<v Speaker 1>m hm, unless you're the kind of person that can

0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:23.440
<v Speaker 1>keep a little silky thing. Now, I can't do it.

0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Nobody can do that.

0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:26.680
<v Speaker 1>That's a lie, is it started? Line?

0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:33.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay? Conspiracy? I couldn't think of the word conspiracy.

0:43:34.360 --> 0:43:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, my brain. The brands are going to

0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:40.080
<v Speaker 1>cross the board, myself, the people I'm observing, this is

0:43:40.120 --> 0:43:45.360
<v Speaker 1>what's happening to all of us. Okay, but let's go back, okay.

0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:49.040
<v Speaker 2>To February of twenty twenty. Remember that the world is

0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:53.239
<v Speaker 2>starting to look with increasing concern at coronavirus outbreaks in

0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:58.319
<v Speaker 2>China and Italy. But today we are in Argentina. Specifically,

0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:01.920
<v Speaker 2>we are in the Andes Mountains on South America's highest peak,

0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:03.960
<v Speaker 2>the Aconcagua.

0:44:04.239 --> 0:44:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I've heard of it. No? Is it a by

0:44:08.160 --> 0:44:08.920
<v Speaker 1>match you peachu?

0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:10.000
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:44:10.040 --> 0:44:10.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay?

0:44:10.719 --> 0:44:12.399
<v Speaker 2>The fact that this is I don't know.

0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:14.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Why am I saying yes? Right? The fact that this

0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:21.600
<v Speaker 2>is the highest mountain in South America makes it one

0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:25.120
<v Speaker 2>of the seven Summits, which are the highest peaks on

0:44:25.280 --> 0:44:28.040
<v Speaker 2>each continent. So this makes it part of a popular

0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:30.880
<v Speaker 2>climbing challenge for mountaineers who want to conquer.

0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:31.640
<v Speaker 1>All of them.

0:44:31.960 --> 0:44:34.319
<v Speaker 2>Could you imagine being like that?

0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:39.120
<v Speaker 1>Do they not know about TV or naps? It's I mean,

0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:41.280
<v Speaker 1>I get it, it's nice to be outside and stuff.

0:44:41.640 --> 0:44:42.399
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how that.

0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:45.360
<v Speaker 2>Dry it would be cool for something aside podcasting.

0:44:45.440 --> 0:44:49.160
<v Speaker 1>I feel I feel like those are people who have

0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:54.319
<v Speaker 1>learned something in this world about not the immediate gratification

0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:57.800
<v Speaker 1>of like stuff like this. I just never learned that. Yeah. Same,

0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:01.680
<v Speaker 1>It's just mean I can't hike all the time if

0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:04.120
<v Speaker 1>no one's giving me attention, right or alcohol?

0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So Everest is the highest of these seven summits.

0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:13.279
<v Speaker 2>It's also the most expensive and logistically worrisome, which is

0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:17.000
<v Speaker 2>because of its popularity, altitude, and weather concerns. But it's

0:45:17.040 --> 0:45:20.320
<v Speaker 2>debatable as to whether it's the hardest to actually climb.

0:45:20.520 --> 0:45:23.279
<v Speaker 2>And so also, I did the deaths on Everest in

0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:26.920
<v Speaker 2>episode one seventy four, and you covered Junko taba e

0:45:27.400 --> 0:45:32.040
<v Speaker 2>in episode five twenty six. Should anyone want to feel cold.

0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:36.439
<v Speaker 1>More learn about a legendary lady mountaineer, right, or your thing?

0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:40.600
<v Speaker 1>Or just a bunch of terrible deaths skeletons?

0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, okay. So it's the middle of summer in

0:45:43.920 --> 0:45:46.600
<v Speaker 2>the southern part of the Hemisphere twenty twenty, so February.

0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:49.359
<v Speaker 2>It's the peak of the Andes climbing season, and two

0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:52.000
<v Speaker 2>porters are on the mountain not too far from the

0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:55.200
<v Speaker 2>summit on its hardest climbing route. It's called the Polish

0:45:55.200 --> 0:45:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Glacier laying down ropes for a climbing expedition, and Akankagua

0:45:59.520 --> 0:46:03.560
<v Speaker 2>has multipots to the summit. Some don't require much technical

0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:05.799
<v Speaker 2>equipment or skill at all. You can just kind of

0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:08.040
<v Speaker 2>have a nice walk up to them. But you do

0:46:08.120 --> 0:46:10.960
<v Speaker 2>have to be in really good shape to get to

0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:13.880
<v Speaker 2>the top, which is twenty two thousand feet, because the

0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:17.239
<v Speaker 2>risk of getting severe altitude sickness is very high, and

0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:20.800
<v Speaker 2>so some climbers use oxygen. Some are purists and don't.

0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:24.360
<v Speaker 2>But this route that we're taking, the Polish Glacier route,

0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:27.240
<v Speaker 2>is where the porters are, you know, getting everything ready

0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:30.680
<v Speaker 2>for the mountaineers. And this part is extremely difficult. It

0:46:30.719 --> 0:46:34.480
<v Speaker 2>requires significant mountaineering experience. And it's named the Polish Glacier

0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:36.319
<v Speaker 2>because the first group to open up the route in

0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen thirties had been from Poland.

0:46:39.080 --> 0:46:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, not that interesting.

0:46:40.400 --> 0:46:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, It used to be that groups of mountaineers set

0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:45.279
<v Speaker 2>up their own camps, lay their own minds. But now

0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:48.400
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole industry around mountaineering and these porters are

0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:49.200
<v Speaker 2>doing just that.

0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:51.520
<v Speaker 1>Can you imagine that's your job, though, it'd be pretty

0:46:51.520 --> 0:46:53.719
<v Speaker 1>red like some people are planning, like this is my

0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:57.200
<v Speaker 1>lifetime trip to climb this mountain, and other people are like, ugh,

0:46:57.400 --> 0:46:59.799
<v Speaker 1>gotta go to work and climb this mountain again. They

0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:00.800
<v Speaker 1>do it constantly.

0:47:00.840 --> 0:47:02.120
<v Speaker 2>These idiots just keep coming.

0:47:03.360 --> 0:47:03.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:47:04.160 --> 0:47:06.759
<v Speaker 2>Another thing that's changed is that the Polish Glacier is

0:47:06.840 --> 0:47:09.360
<v Speaker 2>receding because of the global climate change.

0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Fake.

0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:13.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm just kidding. What's the word conspiracy?

0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:15.160
<v Speaker 1>Conspiracy? No, it's not.

0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:18.360
<v Speaker 2>This means that every so often, and I remember seeing this,

0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:22.160
<v Speaker 2>like in my news feed, the glacier spits out an

0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:24.839
<v Speaker 2>item that had once been encased on ice.

0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:25.879
<v Speaker 1>My favorite.

0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:31.040
<v Speaker 2>On this particular day, the porters stumble upon a nicomat camera.

0:47:31.560 --> 0:47:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh it's an old school camera and it's got an

0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:37.839
<v Speaker 2>old school label maker name on it. So a name

0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:41.560
<v Speaker 2>and address with an old school label maker. Wow, right, Yes,

0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:44.920
<v Speaker 2>the name says Janet Johnson and there's her address as well.

0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:47.279
<v Speaker 2>The porters can see that twenty four photos have been

0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:48.600
<v Speaker 2>taken with this old camera.

0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:50.200
<v Speaker 1>They shrug it off.

0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:52.200
<v Speaker 2>They take it down to the mountain to their campsite

0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:54.319
<v Speaker 2>when they're done for the day, and they show it

0:47:54.360 --> 0:47:58.560
<v Speaker 2>to a guide named Ulissees corve Lan. And when Uluss

0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:02.000
<v Speaker 2>sees the name Janet Johnson. Then he goes white and

0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:05.080
<v Speaker 2>he tells the porters that Janet Johnson, along with another

0:48:05.120 --> 0:48:08.440
<v Speaker 2>climber named John Cooper, died on the mountain almost fifty

0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:13.560
<v Speaker 2>years earlier under very mysterious circumstances. Her camera had just

0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:14.280
<v Speaker 2>been uncovered.

0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:18.359
<v Speaker 1>The ice receding is unveiling evidence. That's right.

0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:23.759
<v Speaker 2>This is the story of the Aconcagua Mountain mystery. The

0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:25.880
<v Speaker 2>main source for this is a twenty twenty three New

0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:27.040
<v Speaker 2>York Times article.

0:48:27.160 --> 0:48:30.960
<v Speaker 1>It's very good, robust.

0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:33.959
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, it's not urty.

0:48:34.080 --> 0:48:34.479
<v Speaker 1>It's good.

0:48:34.800 --> 0:48:37.120
<v Speaker 2>It's called Ghosts on the Glacier by John Branch with

0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:38.600
<v Speaker 2>videos by Emily Ryan.

0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:40.120
<v Speaker 1>It's a really great read.

0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:43.200
<v Speaker 2>And then I also went to a website by this

0:48:43.480 --> 0:48:47.040
<v Speaker 2>writer slash mountaineer named Mark Horrell h.

0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:48.600
<v Speaker 1>O R R E L. Mark.

0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:52.320
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the greats. The rest of the sources

0:48:52.320 --> 0:48:53.600
<v Speaker 2>can be found in our show notes.

0:48:53.719 --> 0:48:53.959
<v Speaker 1>Great.

0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:56.399
<v Speaker 2>So it's nineteen seventy two and a fifty two year

0:48:56.400 --> 0:48:59.080
<v Speaker 2>old Portland based lawyer named Carmine Defoe.

0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a good name.

0:49:00.520 --> 0:49:05.920
<v Speaker 3>Old done starts putting together a group that will tackle

0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:10.479
<v Speaker 3>Aconcagua together, and they want to do the Polish Glacier route,

0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:11.160
<v Speaker 3>the hardest one.

0:49:11.480 --> 0:49:13.840
<v Speaker 2>If they succeed, they will be the fifth ever group

0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:14.200
<v Speaker 2>to do.

0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:18.520
<v Speaker 1>So. Hey, hey, let's climb. CARMEI is a member of

0:49:18.800 --> 0:49:19.960
<v Speaker 1>a climbing.

0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:23.279
<v Speaker 2>Club which Karmie. Is that his nickname Carmi? Yeah? Did

0:49:23.280 --> 0:49:27.080
<v Speaker 2>I say Carmine? Yeah, well I've meant Karme. It's really Carmine.

0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:30.239
<v Speaker 1>That's it could be, And it's just it's such a

0:49:30.239 --> 0:49:33.320
<v Speaker 1>cutie nickname for like Carmar Carmie.

0:49:34.040 --> 0:49:36.439
<v Speaker 2>So he's been a member of a climbing club that's

0:49:36.440 --> 0:49:38.240
<v Speaker 2>a thing called Mazumas.

0:49:38.440 --> 0:49:39.480
<v Speaker 1>It's been around.

0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:42.439
<v Speaker 2>Since the eighteen nineties. It's still around today, so don't

0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:45.520
<v Speaker 2>talk shit, you can join it. Most of the climbers

0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:49.520
<v Speaker 2>he recruits are also members of Mazumas. The group includes

0:49:49.560 --> 0:49:53.320
<v Speaker 2>a psychiatrist named Jim Petrowski, a doctor named Bill Eubank,

0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:56.799
<v Speaker 2>a dairy farmer named Arnold McMillan. Wow, just like people

0:49:56.800 --> 0:50:00.440
<v Speaker 2>who were in the climbing mountains. It's like pigs, all kinds.

0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Joe girl named Maureen.

0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:06.800
<v Speaker 2>No, a police officer named Bill Zeller, and the youngest,

0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:09.719
<v Speaker 2>a twenty five year old Brigham Young University student named

0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:12.520
<v Speaker 2>John Shelton who was hot and He also spoke the

0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:16.400
<v Speaker 2>best Spanish in his group because of his mission trip. Okay, hm,

0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:19.359
<v Speaker 2>the hot was me. What's it called editorial life?

0:50:19.360 --> 0:50:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Thank you? Welcome?

0:50:20.400 --> 0:50:24.600
<v Speaker 2>And NASA engineer named John Cooper, who had worked on

0:50:24.719 --> 0:50:26.680
<v Speaker 2>several recent Apollo missions.

0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:30.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean every type of person, that's right, except for women.

0:50:30.960 --> 0:50:32.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, oh, we're gonna get to her.

0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:33.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Carmie hires a local guide named Miguel Alfonso, and then

0:50:37.440 --> 0:50:39.000
<v Speaker 2>close to when the group is going to leave, he

0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:43.200
<v Speaker 2>announces one new member of the party, a school librarian

0:50:43.800 --> 0:50:47.280
<v Speaker 2>with a PhD in education from Denver named Janet Johnson.

0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:48.239
<v Speaker 1>Okay, right.

0:50:48.680 --> 0:50:50.520
<v Speaker 2>While most people in the group are in the same

0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:53.240
<v Speaker 2>general orbit, although none of them have ever climbed together,

0:50:53.520 --> 0:50:56.239
<v Speaker 2>Janet has never met anyone else in the group. But

0:50:56.320 --> 0:51:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Carmie's Denver friends say she's a highly experienced climber, so

0:51:00.440 --> 0:51:01.920
<v Speaker 2>she can come along letter in.

0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, oh, lady climber.

0:51:04.520 --> 0:51:05.239
<v Speaker 2>What's she doing?

0:51:05.360 --> 0:51:06.959
<v Speaker 1>I'm not gonna wait around all day?

0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:09.440
<v Speaker 2>What's she doing on the mountaintop?

0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Stop it? This is serious. No, it's not okay.

0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:17.080
<v Speaker 2>Because the climbing party includes a NASA engineer and a

0:51:17.120 --> 0:51:21.400
<v Speaker 2>woman and a woman, there's considerable public interest in the expedition,

0:51:21.960 --> 0:51:24.440
<v Speaker 2>and it attracts some media attention because like it's kind

0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:26.720
<v Speaker 2>of a new exciting thing, this mountain climbing.

0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:32.040
<v Speaker 2>Women in the sixties, you know, everest the whole, like

0:51:32.120 --> 0:51:34.160
<v Speaker 2>climbing things.

0:51:32.920 --> 0:51:35.240
<v Speaker 1>Like the trend. It's really becoming entrent.

0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:38.120
<v Speaker 2>And everyone loves NASA people so and women of course

0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:40.480
<v Speaker 2>they love women, so love women. They get us a

0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:44.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of media attention, especially directed at John Nasa, John

0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:47.680
<v Speaker 2>and Janet so John Nasa, John, I'm gonna call him.

0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:49.920
<v Speaker 2>That is thirty five at the time of the expedition.

0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:52.479
<v Speaker 2>He had grown up in Kansas and had always loved

0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:56.160
<v Speaker 2>the outdoors. After graduating from Oklahoma University, he becomes a

0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:57.360
<v Speaker 2>pilot for the Coastguard.

0:51:57.440 --> 0:51:58.560
<v Speaker 1>He's an avid climber.

0:51:58.719 --> 0:52:01.239
<v Speaker 2>He's just like all the things that you want if

0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:03.319
<v Speaker 2>you want an outdoorsy type. Yeah, you know, like when

0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:06.040
<v Speaker 2>you are swiping whichever way and you're like, do I

0:52:06.080 --> 0:52:08.120
<v Speaker 2>want to hike on my first date or no, he's

0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:09.440
<v Speaker 2>the hike on the first daid guy.

0:52:09.520 --> 0:52:11.879
<v Speaker 1>He's the hike five miles on our first day. That's right.

0:52:12.480 --> 0:52:16.759
<v Speaker 2>He summitted Kilimanjaro, Mount Kenya and po Poka Tepey Toll.

0:52:17.000 --> 0:52:18.799
<v Speaker 1>Yes, where my vacation home is.

0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:22.000
<v Speaker 2>That's right, And they all have elevations between seventeen thousand

0:52:22.040 --> 0:52:25.000
<v Speaker 2>and nineteen thousand feet. And at NASA, John had worked

0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:27.640
<v Speaker 2>on the Apollo eleven mission to the Moon and every

0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:30.800
<v Speaker 2>mission since up until the last one, which was Apollo seventeen.

0:52:30.880 --> 0:52:31.680
<v Speaker 1>That's right. You knew that.

0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Shortly before his expedition to Uconcagua. While at NASA he

0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:38.759
<v Speaker 2>had met a secretary named Sandy Myers and they had

0:52:38.800 --> 0:52:42.040
<v Speaker 2>gotten married in nineteen sixty eight and they had a

0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:44.800
<v Speaker 2>son named Randy in nineteen sixty nine. And we're back

0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:48.760
<v Speaker 2>and it's a fan offal of NASA, John Cooper CIVU play.

0:52:49.440 --> 0:52:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, regolutely right. Absolutely, you would love to have

0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:55.960
<v Speaker 1>a beer with that guy. Totally fun cheers.

0:52:56.160 --> 0:52:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Although all of John's backstory becomes known to public around

0:52:59.120 --> 0:53:00.920
<v Speaker 2>the time with the climb, most of what people know

0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:05.160
<v Speaker 2>about Janet at the time she's a lady. She's a lady, yes,

0:53:06.120 --> 0:53:08.880
<v Speaker 2>which is unusual for a climber at this time. Janet's

0:53:08.880 --> 0:53:11.160
<v Speaker 2>thirty six at the time of the expedition and had

0:53:11.200 --> 0:53:15.200
<v Speaker 2>been born in Minneapolis and adopted by Victor and May Johnson.

0:53:15.400 --> 0:53:18.640
<v Speaker 2>That Johnson's are very religious and very strict, and Janet

0:53:18.680 --> 0:53:23.160
<v Speaker 2>is an obedient daughter. She's a voracious reader, extremely studious,

0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:25.880
<v Speaker 2>loves to learn. When she's ten, she says to her

0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:28.680
<v Speaker 2>parents she wants a sister, and so they adopt a

0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:34.000
<v Speaker 2>five year old named Judy. I know, Judy, says her sister,

0:53:34.120 --> 0:53:36.680
<v Speaker 2>quote liked to study. That was her favorite thing to do.

0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:41.080
<v Speaker 2>Straight a's. She would settle for nothing less same when

0:53:41.160 --> 0:53:42.520
<v Speaker 2>Janet goes away to college.

0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:43.200
<v Speaker 1>This sucks.

0:53:43.200 --> 0:53:44.719
<v Speaker 2>When Janet goes a way to college and this is

0:53:44.719 --> 0:53:47.680
<v Speaker 2>so little sister. Oh no, Judy finds a box of

0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:53.240
<v Speaker 2>love notes between her sister and another woman. This Janet

0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:56.160
<v Speaker 2>and love notes between Janet and another woman. Judy found

0:53:56.200 --> 0:53:58.320
<v Speaker 2>those in her room. Oh okay, she went away to college.

0:53:58.360 --> 0:54:01.040
<v Speaker 2>It's unclear exactly how j and its parents find out,

0:54:01.200 --> 0:54:03.439
<v Speaker 2>although little sister it's clear.

0:54:03.520 --> 0:54:07.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean you allegedly, but you said that,

0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:10.240
<v Speaker 1>you go this sucks and then you're like she found

0:54:10.280 --> 0:54:11.279
<v Speaker 1>it where I'm like.

0:54:11.400 --> 0:54:12.160
<v Speaker 2>Why that sucks?

0:54:12.160 --> 0:54:14.919
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, sorry, Alviany, that doesn't suck.

0:54:15.520 --> 0:54:18.759
<v Speaker 2>Judy fucking became a rat. Yes, you know, got it.

0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:20.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure she regretted it the rest of her life.

0:54:20.840 --> 0:54:22.880
<v Speaker 2>They find out about it. Her parents are really strict

0:54:22.880 --> 0:54:25.160
<v Speaker 2>religious parents, and they send Janet to a hospital to

0:54:25.280 --> 0:54:25.839
<v Speaker 2>cure her.

0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:27.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's seme today.

0:54:28.360 --> 0:54:30.799
<v Speaker 2>This of course does not work, and Janet moves to

0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Denver as soon as she can to put distance between

0:54:33.000 --> 0:54:34.200
<v Speaker 2>herself and her parents.

0:54:34.440 --> 0:54:36.919
<v Speaker 1>That's the story my mom used to tell as being

0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:39.719
<v Speaker 1>a nurse and a psychatric hospital and like the you know,

0:54:39.840 --> 0:54:42.879
<v Speaker 1>the late sixties seventies where people are just taking their

0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:45.440
<v Speaker 1>the kids that smoke pot, the kids that rebel, the

0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:47.759
<v Speaker 1>kids that were different in some way, and just like, well,

0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:49.160
<v Speaker 1>you have to go to a psyche.

0:54:48.840 --> 0:54:52.320
<v Speaker 2>To the scariest place on earth. So it's in Denver.

0:54:52.400 --> 0:54:54.799
<v Speaker 2>She becomes her own woman, and she gets her masters

0:54:54.960 --> 0:54:57.319
<v Speaker 2>and then a PhD in education and starts working as

0:54:57.320 --> 0:55:00.400
<v Speaker 2>a school librarian. And then really just it's the thing

0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to do between climbing mountains whenever she can. She's just

0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:06.640
<v Speaker 2>obsessed with it. She's among the first twenty women to

0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:10.760
<v Speaker 2>climb all of Colorado's fourteen ers they're called the summits

0:55:10.800 --> 0:55:13.799
<v Speaker 2>that are higher than fourteen thousand feet, as well as

0:55:13.800 --> 0:55:15.760
<v Speaker 2>notable mountains all around the world.

0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah.

0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:19.200
<v Speaker 2>In addition to local interest in John and Janet, the

0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:22.000
<v Speaker 2>group also attracts attention because of their plan to climb

0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:25.400
<v Speaker 2>the notoriously difficult Polish Glacier again. They would be the

0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:28.760
<v Speaker 2>fifth team to do it if they accomplished it. Spoiler,

0:55:29.000 --> 0:55:32.759
<v Speaker 2>they don't. A journalist from the local paper in Mendoza,

0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Argentina named Raphael Moran goes to interview the climbing team

0:55:37.280 --> 0:55:39.440
<v Speaker 2>when they arrive in Argentina. So he goes to the hotel.

0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:41.920
<v Speaker 2>He's like, Mistick gets just you know, a little fluck

0:55:41.960 --> 0:55:45.280
<v Speaker 2>piece on everyone, but right away he gets some bad vibes.

0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:48.600
<v Speaker 2>When he interviews everyone together, he feels that the group

0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:50.719
<v Speaker 2>is not cohesive. They don't seem to know each other

0:55:50.760 --> 0:55:53.360
<v Speaker 2>well enough for what they're about to embark on, because

0:55:53.400 --> 0:55:55.720
<v Speaker 2>you have to trust each other, especially if you're roped together,

0:55:56.239 --> 0:55:58.200
<v Speaker 2>and believe that the other person knows what they're doing

0:55:58.200 --> 0:56:00.839
<v Speaker 2>and has your best interest and helps out. They also

0:56:00.840 --> 0:56:03.520
<v Speaker 2>don't seem to quite understand just how difficult the Polish

0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Glacier route is. They're kind of being jovial about it.

0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:10.280
<v Speaker 2>He tells the photographer to make sure he gets single

0:56:10.320 --> 0:56:13.200
<v Speaker 2>shots of everyone in the party because he's convinced they

0:56:13.200 --> 0:56:15.440
<v Speaker 2>won't all make it back down the mountain and he'll

0:56:15.600 --> 0:56:19.560
<v Speaker 2>want a photo for the newspaper when that happens. WHOA, yeah, oh,

0:56:19.680 --> 0:56:22.480
<v Speaker 2>let's see a photo of Janet. So that's Janet got it.

0:56:22.640 --> 0:56:25.280
<v Speaker 2>There's no sunscreen back then, but sunscreen didn't exist.

0:56:25.520 --> 0:56:27.600
<v Speaker 1>No sunscreen. Everyone's wearing the same flannel.

0:56:27.719 --> 0:56:30.480
<v Speaker 2>That's right, no sunscreen. Skin cancer still exists.

0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:33.720
<v Speaker 1>Those cool sunglasses for sure, though, Oh yeah for sure.

0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:36.680
<v Speaker 2>So wow, that's yeah, she's got it all going. The

0:56:36.719 --> 0:56:40.080
<v Speaker 2>group stays together at a hotel in Mendos, Argentina, before

0:56:40.120 --> 0:56:43.480
<v Speaker 2>setting off. John Cooper, the NASA engineer, keeps a diary,

0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:45.319
<v Speaker 2>and from it it seems like he and the other

0:56:45.360 --> 0:56:48.840
<v Speaker 2>men in the group don't quite understand like what category

0:56:48.880 --> 0:56:51.120
<v Speaker 2>to put Janet in. She just is kind of an

0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:51.920
<v Speaker 2>enigma to them.

0:56:52.080 --> 0:56:52.439
<v Speaker 1>He says.

0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:56.120
<v Speaker 2>She doesn't seem feminine at all. He writes, quote, Janet

0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:59.080
<v Speaker 2>sure is weird. She went swimming in her bra, blouse

0:56:59.120 --> 0:57:00.480
<v Speaker 2>and panties today and the.

0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:01.640
<v Speaker 1>Poll was full of people.

0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:07.000
<v Speaker 2>End quote. So it's just like whamon climbing mountains.

0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:09.680
<v Speaker 1>Also, she just jumped into the pool because she didn't

0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:10.120
<v Speaker 1>have a suit.

0:57:10.239 --> 0:57:11.840
<v Speaker 2>She didn't give a fuck, like she was definitely like

0:57:11.880 --> 0:57:14.440
<v Speaker 2>a I don't give a fuck, lady, yeah, Yeah, I'm

0:57:14.440 --> 0:57:15.560
<v Speaker 2>going to live life how I want.

0:57:15.400 --> 0:57:17.120
<v Speaker 1>To live with And so these guys had kind of

0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:19.600
<v Speaker 1>never been around anybody like that before exactly.

0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:22.440
<v Speaker 2>So the team sets out for base camp, a twenty

0:57:22.480 --> 0:57:26.360
<v Speaker 2>five mile extremely rigorous hike on its own. Like you

0:57:26.400 --> 0:57:27.960
<v Speaker 2>get to the first place and you're like, we have

0:57:28.000 --> 0:57:28.920
<v Speaker 2>to go more.

0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:30.440
<v Speaker 1>Who's making the food?

0:57:31.120 --> 0:57:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Right? So base camp is at thirteen thousand, five hundred feet,

0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:37.760
<v Speaker 2>which is around one thousand feet less than any of

0:57:37.800 --> 0:57:41.760
<v Speaker 2>the highest peaks in the Rocky Mountains. Altitude sickness begins

0:57:41.760 --> 0:57:44.360
<v Speaker 2>to be a factor at around eight thousand feet and

0:57:44.400 --> 0:57:46.600
<v Speaker 2>they're at thirteen five hundred and by the time they

0:57:46.680 --> 0:57:50.280
<v Speaker 2>reached the base camp U Banks, the group's doctor is

0:57:50.320 --> 0:57:52.400
<v Speaker 2>already not feeling well oh and has.

0:57:52.280 --> 0:57:53.439
<v Speaker 1>To stay there.

0:57:53.960 --> 0:57:56.520
<v Speaker 2>So I looked up what altitude sickness feels like, because

0:57:56.520 --> 0:57:58.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't fucking know, and I'll tell you and you'll

0:57:58.840 --> 0:58:01.080
<v Speaker 2>understand this as well as I do. So altitude sickness

0:58:01.200 --> 0:58:05.959
<v Speaker 2>generally feels like a severe hangover. Ooh, those fucking hangovers

0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:10.520
<v Speaker 2>where you're lying there just wishing for consciousness.

0:58:10.640 --> 0:58:13.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can get out of your own body just

0:58:13.360 --> 0:58:15.200
<v Speaker 1>for two hours.

0:58:14.560 --> 0:58:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Like sweaty and suppressed, and oh it'spicious, so bad. It's

0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:24.040
<v Speaker 2>characterized by a throbbing headache, nausea, dizziness, fatigue, and shortness

0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:24.520
<v Speaker 2>of breath.

0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:25.240
<v Speaker 1>So it sucks.

0:58:25.320 --> 0:58:28.040
<v Speaker 2>You're not hiking anymore when you get it. At base camp,

0:58:28.080 --> 0:58:30.480
<v Speaker 2>the group connects with a local twenty five year old

0:58:30.520 --> 0:58:34.040
<v Speaker 2>climber named Roberto Bustos, whom they have hired to look

0:58:34.080 --> 0:58:36.960
<v Speaker 2>after their base camp setup. So I think he might

0:58:37.000 --> 0:58:40.960
<v Speaker 2>be the cook or they just are eating like dry

0:58:41.200 --> 0:58:42.280
<v Speaker 2>weird Yeah, what is it?

0:58:42.320 --> 0:58:45.280
<v Speaker 1>Handfuls of walnuts? It would drive me insane. Yeah.

0:58:45.440 --> 0:58:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Roberto also specifically remembers that the vibe seemed off to

0:58:48.480 --> 0:58:50.640
<v Speaker 2>him as well. They didn't seem like a team, but

0:58:50.720 --> 0:58:53.440
<v Speaker 2>rather a group of individuals. He says, quote, there was

0:58:53.520 --> 0:58:56.400
<v Speaker 2>no group attitude. I was thinking, Oh, I am on

0:58:56.480 --> 0:58:59.240
<v Speaker 2>my own. Everyone has to take care of himself. In

0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:01.880
<v Speaker 2>my opinion, they weren't ready for such a strange and

0:59:02.000 --> 0:59:03.720
<v Speaker 2>big mountain as a Concagua.

0:59:04.280 --> 0:59:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. That's a terrible way to start, right, Yeah, And.

0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:09.560
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people underestimate this mountain, and

0:59:09.680 --> 0:59:11.680
<v Speaker 2>the people who are from there know that.

0:59:12.000 --> 0:59:14.400
<v Speaker 1>Do you think the infighting would be worse if it's

0:59:14.440 --> 0:59:17.400
<v Speaker 1>strangers who aren't gelling, or if it's people who know

0:59:17.560 --> 0:59:20.400
<v Speaker 1>each other really well, because that also has a thing

0:59:20.400 --> 0:59:22.000
<v Speaker 1>of like you could start as a great group, but

0:59:22.120 --> 0:59:25.440
<v Speaker 1>something happens and then yeah, either way, then it's more

0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:28.320
<v Speaker 1>personal totally. But you think that that you make sure

0:59:28.320 --> 0:59:30.200
<v Speaker 1>you like each other though, if you're going to do it,

0:59:30.320 --> 0:59:32.880
<v Speaker 1>you're right. Trust is the two people.

0:59:32.480 --> 0:59:35.040
<v Speaker 2>Might not like each other when everyone else, Yeah, who knows?

0:59:35.080 --> 0:59:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Email us? Are you a mountaineer? Let us know what's

0:59:38.040 --> 0:59:39.160
<v Speaker 2>it called altitude sickness?

0:59:39.200 --> 0:59:42.360
<v Speaker 1>It's ultimate thread on the trail. Let us know what

0:59:42.400 --> 0:59:45.200
<v Speaker 1>it's like to be a mountaineer. Do you hate Everyonekay?

0:59:46.480 --> 0:59:48.520
<v Speaker 1>The whole time you're thinking of string cheese, right, because

0:59:48.560 --> 0:59:50.760
<v Speaker 1>that's all I can think of? Or like you have

0:59:50.800 --> 0:59:53.560
<v Speaker 1>to like line your pockets with gummy bears, some.

0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Crackers that are sandwich with peanut butter. They're so fucking good.

0:59:57.560 --> 0:59:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Think up pulling that out of your socks and no

0:59:59.320 --> 1:00:00.480
<v Speaker 1>one else can see.

1:00:01.600 --> 1:00:04.320
<v Speaker 2>These days, it's expensive to be a mountaineer, and that's

1:00:04.360 --> 1:00:07.920
<v Speaker 2>partly because nowadays porters set up camps, they lay lines

1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:10.680
<v Speaker 2>so that groups can mostly travel directly from base camp

1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:12.600
<v Speaker 2>to base camp up the mountain. But in the seventies

1:00:13.280 --> 1:00:15.520
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't really how it went. This group would be

1:00:15.520 --> 1:00:17.600
<v Speaker 2>doing all of that work themselves. So their route up

1:00:17.640 --> 1:00:20.200
<v Speaker 2>the mountain will include three separate camps. So they have

1:00:20.240 --> 1:00:23.040
<v Speaker 2>to climb up to Camp one, haul all the gear

1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:25.240
<v Speaker 2>up there and set up camp, then go back to

1:00:25.280 --> 1:00:27.360
<v Speaker 2>base camp, then go back to Camp one with the

1:00:27.360 --> 1:00:28.960
<v Speaker 2>rest of the gear camp there, and then do the

1:00:29.000 --> 1:00:31.959
<v Speaker 2>same thing two more times for base camp two and three.

1:00:32.040 --> 1:00:35.439
<v Speaker 2>So bring everything up, stay, bring everything up.

1:00:35.920 --> 1:00:41.240
<v Speaker 1>So it's exer size and frustration. Yeah, while you're mountaineering. Yeah, yeah,

1:00:41.480 --> 1:00:44.040
<v Speaker 1>I saw that tree already. You're like, your attitude just

1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:44.920
<v Speaker 1>gets worse and worse.

1:00:45.000 --> 1:00:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, The conditions are varying with the potential for storms

1:00:47.920 --> 1:00:50.720
<v Speaker 2>to blow in, and the climb includes long periods of

1:00:50.800 --> 1:00:56.200
<v Speaker 2>navigating through spiky ice formations called penny ten days, right,

1:00:56.360 --> 1:00:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Penny ten.

1:00:56.920 --> 1:00:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Days, Penny ten days. Have you ever heard of them? Yeah?

1:01:00.160 --> 1:01:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Literally penitents petitentes because they look like people praying in church.

1:01:05.560 --> 1:01:07.040
<v Speaker 2>They're basically still agmites.

1:01:07.080 --> 1:01:10.000
<v Speaker 1>There's still lag mites coming up from the ground exactly.

1:01:10.000 --> 1:01:13.240
<v Speaker 2>They're these huge spikes of ice, huge fields of them,

1:01:13.840 --> 1:01:16.480
<v Speaker 2>just coming up from the ground like upside down giant icicles.

1:01:16.920 --> 1:01:18.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna show you a photo. Oh great, because I

1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:22.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't understand those. Oh, so you have to navigate around those.

1:01:23.160 --> 1:01:24.400
<v Speaker 2>It's just a pain in the ass.

1:01:24.520 --> 1:01:27.479
<v Speaker 1>Essentially, you can't just like worry about putting one foot

1:01:27.480 --> 1:01:29.360
<v Speaker 1>in front of the other. No, it looks like.

1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:33.080
<v Speaker 2>An old movie, like a Dune or you know, labyrinth

1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:34.080
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing.

1:01:34.040 --> 1:01:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Or a doctor no situation exactly.

1:01:36.600 --> 1:01:38.320
<v Speaker 2>So there's a bunch of those as well. So those

1:01:38.320 --> 1:01:39.800
<v Speaker 2>are a big pain in the ass. They're hard to

1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:42.400
<v Speaker 2>climb around. It's grueling and already feels like people are

1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:44.040
<v Speaker 2>starting to grumble about each other.

1:01:45.040 --> 1:01:45.360
<v Speaker 1>NASA.

1:01:45.440 --> 1:01:47.560
<v Speaker 2>John writes in his diary that he does not think

1:01:47.640 --> 1:01:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Janet is contributing enough. He writes, quote, she's a real

1:01:50.680 --> 1:01:53.360
<v Speaker 2>loaner and appears to be for only one thing, to

1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:56.440
<v Speaker 2>get herself to the summit at the expense of everyone,

1:01:56.720 --> 1:02:00.240
<v Speaker 2>or on everyone's back, meaning they're carrying more than she

1:02:00.400 --> 1:02:03.480
<v Speaker 2>is or something, and she's not really yeah, helping out.

1:02:03.680 --> 1:02:05.880
<v Speaker 1>That's the first thing I thought of that she would

1:02:05.880 --> 1:02:08.800
<v Speaker 1>be accused of, because as a woman she can't maybe

1:02:09.160 --> 1:02:12.360
<v Speaker 1>technically carry as much, or if there is that kind

1:02:12.400 --> 1:02:15.800
<v Speaker 1>of bitterness where they're like, we didn't want her here anyway, totally.

1:02:15.800 --> 1:02:16.880
<v Speaker 1>That is what you would say.

1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Several in the group come down with acute altitude sickness

1:02:20.520 --> 1:02:22.760
<v Speaker 2>right off the bat and stay at Camp one or

1:02:22.840 --> 1:02:26.720
<v Speaker 2>go back to base camp. This includes Karmi right off

1:02:26.760 --> 1:02:28.400
<v Speaker 2>the bat, the leader.

1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:29.840
<v Speaker 1>The author of the whole plan.

1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:34.160
<v Speaker 2>He's out, the doctor U Banks is out, and Shelton,

1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:38.120
<v Speaker 2>the hot interpreter out gone. The rest of the group

1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:40.040
<v Speaker 2>make it to Camp three. They do the fucking thing

1:02:40.200 --> 1:02:42.840
<v Speaker 2>at the base of the Polish Glacier about eighteen thousand

1:02:42.840 --> 1:02:45.640
<v Speaker 2>feet up and the last camp before the stretch to

1:02:45.680 --> 1:02:48.640
<v Speaker 2>the summit. So one last camp, okay. As they get

1:02:48.680 --> 1:02:52.240
<v Speaker 2>ready to start climbing, Petrowsky the psychiatrist, can't get on.

1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:55.480
<v Speaker 2>I just hate this word. Can't get on his crampons.

1:02:57.880 --> 1:02:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I hate it.

1:02:58.640 --> 1:02:59.960
<v Speaker 1>I can't every time I see it.

1:03:01.400 --> 1:03:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Are you gonna spit that out?

1:03:02.560 --> 1:03:06.680
<v Speaker 1>Why did I take that sip? That's they are spiking.

1:03:06.400 --> 1:03:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Shoe attachments to get into the ice that absorb.

1:03:09.280 --> 1:03:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Your foot blood every month, not crampons. I just can't

1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:14.840
<v Speaker 1>a borrow crampon.

1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, you a krampon. I forgot to bring mond.

1:03:18.040 --> 1:03:22.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm sliding into the penitents. So he's like.

1:03:22.040 --> 1:03:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Having trouble putting them on, which is weird, and it's

1:03:24.680 --> 1:03:27.160
<v Speaker 2>clear to everyone else that it's because he's disoriented, and

1:03:27.200 --> 1:03:30.960
<v Speaker 2>they think that he's suffering from severe, possibly deadly altitude sickness,

1:03:30.960 --> 1:03:35.280
<v Speaker 2>because at that point your brain is like not working fine.

1:03:35.120 --> 1:03:39.360
<v Speaker 1>Alone, it is my Tampa.

1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:42.840
<v Speaker 2>The local guide, Alfonso, takes him back down the mountain

1:03:42.880 --> 1:03:45.480
<v Speaker 2>to base camp. So now there are only four climbers

1:03:45.560 --> 1:03:49.080
<v Speaker 2>left in the entire group. Zeller, the police officer, McMillan,

1:03:49.200 --> 1:03:52.840
<v Speaker 2>the good old dairy farmer, and John Nasa John and

1:03:52.880 --> 1:03:56.000
<v Speaker 2>our Janet. None of them have ever climbed a mountain

1:03:56.040 --> 1:03:58.360
<v Speaker 2>this high before, and none of them knew each other

1:03:58.440 --> 1:03:59.240
<v Speaker 2>before the trip.

1:03:59.480 --> 1:04:01.120
<v Speaker 1>Here's the other thing that I just would like to

1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:03.800
<v Speaker 1>and maybe I'm totally wrong in doing this, but the

1:04:03.840 --> 1:04:06.280
<v Speaker 1>idea that someone was like, she's just doing it for herself,

1:04:06.320 --> 1:04:08.720
<v Speaker 1>It's like, so how many that are left are doing

1:04:08.760 --> 1:04:09.760
<v Speaker 1>it for everybody else?

1:04:09.760 --> 1:04:11.080
<v Speaker 2>Do you want to hold hands at the top of

1:04:11.120 --> 1:04:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the mountain?

1:04:11.920 --> 1:04:14.800
<v Speaker 1>Now? Literally going to be like me first? I mean,

1:04:15.400 --> 1:04:17.880
<v Speaker 1>isn't that kind of what mountaineering is about? Like you

1:04:17.920 --> 1:04:20.480
<v Speaker 1>go together, but it's a one man sport. It ends

1:04:20.520 --> 1:04:23.320
<v Speaker 1>a woman one woman, Okay, sure?

1:04:23.480 --> 1:04:27.160
<v Speaker 2>According to the accounts, of Zeller and McMillan, the psychiatrist

1:04:27.280 --> 1:04:30.280
<v Speaker 2>and the police officer who are left and spoiler alert,

1:04:30.360 --> 1:04:33.400
<v Speaker 2>they're the only two survivors at the group. Before the

1:04:33.440 --> 1:04:35.760
<v Speaker 2>group had set out believing they would reach the summit

1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:38.680
<v Speaker 2>that day, but had moved very slowly, picking their way

1:04:38.720 --> 1:04:43.800
<v Speaker 2>across the glacier with ice axe and crampons. They realized

1:04:43.840 --> 1:04:45.840
<v Speaker 2>they will have to camp for the night, and they

1:04:45.840 --> 1:04:47.959
<v Speaker 2>didn't bring their tents, so they have to like beave

1:04:47.960 --> 1:04:49.920
<v Speaker 2>a whack into the fucking ice and try to like

1:04:49.960 --> 1:04:50.960
<v Speaker 2>spend the night in there.

1:04:51.040 --> 1:04:54.000
<v Speaker 1>We'll make themselves like a little igloo.

1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:57.160
<v Speaker 2>It sucks, And so the next morning NASA John Cooper

1:04:57.160 --> 1:05:00.480
<v Speaker 2>says he's too fucking cold. He's like, I'm out sense.

1:05:00.720 --> 1:05:02.120
<v Speaker 2>He's like, I'm going to go back to base camp.

1:05:02.160 --> 1:05:04.040
<v Speaker 2>And they let him go alone, which is something I

1:05:04.040 --> 1:05:06.160
<v Speaker 2>guess we're not supposed to do, which is like maybe

1:05:06.200 --> 1:05:08.360
<v Speaker 2>part of the thing of them not knowing each other. Yeah,

1:05:08.360 --> 1:05:09.280
<v Speaker 2>they don't stick together.

1:05:09.680 --> 1:05:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know.

1:05:10.400 --> 1:05:12.760
<v Speaker 2>So those three climbers keep going up for the summit.

1:05:12.920 --> 1:05:16.680
<v Speaker 2>The last stretches an icy, snowy Ridge, and Zella and

1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:19.440
<v Speaker 2>McMillan say they walk ahead of Janet, making.

1:05:19.160 --> 1:05:20.000
<v Speaker 1>A path for her.

1:05:20.160 --> 1:05:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Let's see that photo, remember that one. Okay, it's just

1:05:23.200 --> 1:05:26.360
<v Speaker 2>someone hiking with the rope tight around them, leading back

1:05:26.400 --> 1:05:28.080
<v Speaker 2>to whoever's taking the picture behind them.

1:05:28.280 --> 1:05:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Yep, right, they're at the top, big old mountain. They

1:05:30.760 --> 1:05:32.080
<v Speaker 1>made it to the top. No they didn't.

1:05:32.200 --> 1:05:35.919
<v Speaker 2>Ok that's technically not the top.

1:05:36.080 --> 1:05:39.520
<v Speaker 1>Oh it's on the side. That's the top. Okay, right,

1:05:40.800 --> 1:05:41.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

1:05:41.440 --> 1:05:42.120
<v Speaker 2>What do I know.

1:05:43.640 --> 1:05:44.160
<v Speaker 1>More than me?

1:05:45.000 --> 1:05:47.040
<v Speaker 2>So they make her a path and at some point,

1:05:47.160 --> 1:05:49.680
<v Speaker 2>as the sun is starting to go down, they turn

1:05:49.760 --> 1:05:53.440
<v Speaker 2>around and realize Janet's not behind them anymore. According to

1:05:53.480 --> 1:05:56.360
<v Speaker 2>their account, they find her one hundred feet off the trail,

1:05:56.720 --> 1:05:59.640
<v Speaker 2>lying in the snow, and she says, quote, my name

1:05:59.680 --> 1:06:02.600
<v Speaker 2>is jan Johnson. Don't make me suffer, Just let me

1:06:02.720 --> 1:06:06.240
<v Speaker 2>lay here and die end quote. The men say that

1:06:06.360 --> 1:06:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Zeller ropes himself to Janet, and eventually both of the

1:06:09.560 --> 1:06:12.480
<v Speaker 2>men try to get Janet back down the mountain, and

1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:16.120
<v Speaker 2>they say her hands are swollen and black. They have

1:06:16.200 --> 1:06:18.600
<v Speaker 2>to anchor her from three different directions to keep her

1:06:18.640 --> 1:06:21.640
<v Speaker 2>standing up. They get to the snow cave where they

1:06:21.640 --> 1:06:24.760
<v Speaker 2>had been in between the final Ridge and Camp three,

1:06:24.760 --> 1:06:27.439
<v Speaker 2>where they had spent the night, where Cooper had left

1:06:27.480 --> 1:06:30.240
<v Speaker 2>to go back down the mountain, remember, and there's a

1:06:30.240 --> 1:06:32.560
<v Speaker 2>flare gun there and so they shoot it, but nothing

1:06:32.600 --> 1:06:35.400
<v Speaker 2>happens at the lower altitude at this point because it

1:06:35.440 --> 1:06:37.960
<v Speaker 2>came down. They say, Janet seems in better shape, so

1:06:38.000 --> 1:06:40.840
<v Speaker 2>they send McMillan down the mountain to help. So it's

1:06:41.040 --> 1:06:43.760
<v Speaker 2>just Zeller, the police officer, and Janet at this point,

1:06:43.800 --> 1:06:47.480
<v Speaker 2>who's clearly not doing well. Yeah, on his way down,

1:06:47.760 --> 1:06:51.480
<v Speaker 2>McMillan loses his ice axe and falls, sliding one thousand

1:06:51.480 --> 1:06:54.439
<v Speaker 2>feet down. He has a black eye when he tells

1:06:54.480 --> 1:06:56.360
<v Speaker 2>this story and says that's how he got it. Then

1:06:56.400 --> 1:06:59.360
<v Speaker 2>he says he saw members of the Argentine Army and

1:06:59.480 --> 1:07:03.000
<v Speaker 2>dead news and a dead soldier. But it's only when

1:07:03.000 --> 1:07:05.520
<v Speaker 2>he finally reaches camp through that he realized he had

1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:08.760
<v Speaker 2>hallucinated all of that, because that's what happens when you

1:07:08.840 --> 1:07:12.120
<v Speaker 2>have altitude sickness. He will later learn that he really

1:07:12.120 --> 1:07:15.400
<v Speaker 2>did see a body, but it wasn't a dead soldier hallucination.

1:07:15.760 --> 1:07:19.600
<v Speaker 2>It was actually John Cooper's body NASA. John Cooper's no

1:07:19.840 --> 1:07:22.640
<v Speaker 2>thirty five year old NASA engineer. So meanwhile Janet and

1:07:22.720 --> 1:07:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Zeller are following McMillan down the glacier, and they also

1:07:26.440 --> 1:07:29.360
<v Speaker 2>take a big fall, which doesn't result in major injuries,

1:07:29.400 --> 1:07:32.360
<v Speaker 2>but their faces get cut up and their glasses get broken.

1:07:33.040 --> 1:07:36.400
<v Speaker 2>In the fall, Janet and Zeller become untethered from each

1:07:36.440 --> 1:07:37.960
<v Speaker 2>other because remember they had tied her up in three

1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:40.800
<v Speaker 2>places to help walk, and it's only when Zeller climbs

1:07:40.880 --> 1:07:44.120
<v Speaker 2>back up to Janet that he sees John Cooper's body.

1:07:44.440 --> 1:07:46.840
<v Speaker 2>He says, quote, I checked him, and he was dead

1:07:46.880 --> 1:07:49.480
<v Speaker 2>and appeared to be frozen. I didn't see any cuts

1:07:49.480 --> 1:07:52.120
<v Speaker 2>on his exposed skin and no tears in the clothing,

1:07:52.280 --> 1:07:54.880
<v Speaker 2>so I assume that he didn't die as a result

1:07:54.960 --> 1:07:58.760
<v Speaker 2>of a fall, but exhaustion and hypothermia end quote. So

1:07:58.920 --> 1:08:00.800
<v Speaker 2>just kind of sat down on where he was at,

1:08:00.920 --> 1:08:03.320
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, died. Zeller says at this point that Janet

1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:06.000
<v Speaker 2>seems in decent shapes since they've been coming down a bit,

1:08:06.000 --> 1:08:08.800
<v Speaker 2>but wants to rest a bit longer, so he leaves

1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:11.439
<v Speaker 2>her and says he'll go back ahead of her, back

1:08:11.480 --> 1:08:13.640
<v Speaker 2>down to camp three, which again, you're not supposed to

1:08:13.720 --> 1:08:17.599
<v Speaker 2>leave anyone alone, especially someone who's clearly suffering. He reaches

1:08:17.680 --> 1:08:21.240
<v Speaker 2>camp and he finds McMillan there, and the two fall

1:08:21.280 --> 1:08:25.519
<v Speaker 2>asleep and Janet never joins them. The men say in

1:08:25.560 --> 1:08:28.040
<v Speaker 2>the morning when they woke up, there's no sign of Janet.

1:08:28.040 --> 1:08:30.559
<v Speaker 2>So they decided to go back down the mountain, saying

1:08:31.000 --> 1:08:34.280
<v Speaker 2>that Zeller was too disoriented from altitude sickness to try

1:08:34.320 --> 1:08:36.479
<v Speaker 2>again and to keep going or to help get anyone

1:08:36.520 --> 1:08:39.120
<v Speaker 2>down the mountain. So essentially, just two people of this

1:08:39.200 --> 1:08:42.120
<v Speaker 2>whole mountaineering team make it close to the top and

1:08:42.160 --> 1:08:44.400
<v Speaker 2>come down, and out of the four, only two come

1:08:44.439 --> 1:08:44.960
<v Speaker 2>down alive.

1:08:45.160 --> 1:08:45.479
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

1:08:45.560 --> 1:08:48.120
<v Speaker 2>The case is widely reported on, and John and Janet's

1:08:48.120 --> 1:08:52.240
<v Speaker 2>families are, of course devastated. In some newspaper articles, Janet's

1:08:52.280 --> 1:08:56.040
<v Speaker 2>name is misspelled as Jeanette. Janet's mother saves clippings of

1:08:56.120 --> 1:09:00.439
<v Speaker 2>every single article and carefully crosses out every Jeanette replaces

1:09:00.479 --> 1:09:04.160
<v Speaker 2>it with her daughter's correct name. I know some articles

1:09:04.240 --> 1:09:06.960
<v Speaker 2>quote Janet saying having said let me die here, which

1:09:07.040 --> 1:09:09.919
<v Speaker 2>they said that she said, and in all of those articles,

1:09:09.920 --> 1:09:12.880
<v Speaker 2>her mother blacks out the entire quotation. She's like, my

1:09:12.960 --> 1:09:16.200
<v Speaker 2>daughter would never do that. They don't believe that at all.

1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:19.679
<v Speaker 2>A judge and police investigator in Mendoza open a case

1:09:20.479 --> 1:09:24.559
<v Speaker 2>labeled as an investigation into possible manslaughter, but despite this.

1:09:24.720 --> 1:09:27.800
<v Speaker 2>After brief questioning, everyone on the mountaineering team is allowed

1:09:27.800 --> 1:09:30.559
<v Speaker 2>to leave the country and go home. Once back in Oregon,

1:09:30.840 --> 1:09:33.439
<v Speaker 2>Carmi gathers as surviving members at the party for a

1:09:33.520 --> 1:09:36.960
<v Speaker 2>meeting with the club leadership and they write an official

1:09:37.040 --> 1:09:40.000
<v Speaker 2>chronology of events, which is a story everyone tells their

1:09:40.040 --> 1:09:43.439
<v Speaker 2>hometown newspapers and any following investigators. So they put a

1:09:43.439 --> 1:09:46.799
<v Speaker 2>story together in secret, and everyone sticks to that narrative.

1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:49.320
<v Speaker 1>Oh so they don't that meeting and that plan is

1:09:49.360 --> 1:09:52.200
<v Speaker 1>a secret plan. They're not like, let's get together and

1:09:52.240 --> 1:09:53.639
<v Speaker 1>put this on the official record.

1:09:53.720 --> 1:09:57.280
<v Speaker 2>No, yeah, they're like, having been interviewed back in Argentina

1:09:57.400 --> 1:10:01.599
<v Speaker 2>and having very different narratives and conflicting stories, they meet

1:10:01.680 --> 1:10:05.600
<v Speaker 2>up and they get their story straight, especially which is suspicious.

1:10:05.720 --> 1:10:06.240
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it is.

1:10:06.479 --> 1:10:06.599
<v Speaker 3>So.

1:10:06.640 --> 1:10:09.120
<v Speaker 2>The account says that John and Janet had been desperate

1:10:09.120 --> 1:10:11.960
<v Speaker 2>to reach the summit and had likely died of pulmonary

1:10:12.120 --> 1:10:16.200
<v Speaker 2>edemas from lack of oxygen at altitude, and because their

1:10:16.200 --> 1:10:19.240
<v Speaker 2>bodies aren't able to be autopsied, they're still on the mountain.

1:10:19.400 --> 1:10:20.720
<v Speaker 2>That's the general consensus.

1:10:21.360 --> 1:10:22.400
<v Speaker 1>That is so.

1:10:22.479 --> 1:10:25.439
<v Speaker 2>That was nineteen seventy two, and in the summer of

1:10:25.479 --> 1:10:30.000
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy three, John's body is found. That expedition is

1:10:30.080 --> 1:10:33.120
<v Speaker 2>led by Alphonse, our local guide, who is haunted by

1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:36.479
<v Speaker 2>this entire ordeal. At the foot of the Polish Glacier,

1:10:36.640 --> 1:10:39.680
<v Speaker 2>they find ripped tents and sleeping bags, and about one

1:10:39.760 --> 1:10:42.360
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty feet above on the glacier they find

1:10:42.439 --> 1:10:45.759
<v Speaker 2>John's body and there's photos of it. John is found

1:10:45.800 --> 1:10:49.920
<v Speaker 2>missing a crampon and without an ice axe. He's on

1:10:50.000 --> 1:10:53.280
<v Speaker 2>a gentle slope and reports say his face is frozen

1:10:53.400 --> 1:10:53.680
<v Speaker 2>in a.

1:10:53.640 --> 1:10:54.439
<v Speaker 1>Look of terror.

1:10:54.640 --> 1:10:57.599
<v Speaker 2>But like that to me is like everyone is when

1:10:57.640 --> 1:10:58.000
<v Speaker 2>they die.

1:10:58.160 --> 1:11:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it's the same thing as when it freaks people

1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:03.439
<v Speaker 1>out and people think it's demonic when people's like eyes

1:11:03.479 --> 1:11:05.600
<v Speaker 1>are missing when their bodies are discovered, and it's like

1:11:05.680 --> 1:11:09.080
<v Speaker 1>soft tissues is what goes first. Yes, but it looks

1:11:09.120 --> 1:11:10.960
<v Speaker 1>like the devil has been here.

1:11:10.880 --> 1:11:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, So that says nothing to me. But it's just it's.

1:11:14.160 --> 1:11:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Noted death, it's dead bodies. Yeah.

1:11:16.560 --> 1:11:18.840
<v Speaker 2>So here's the weirdest part of all to me. His

1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:22.960
<v Speaker 2>abdomen has a cylindrical hole which is bloody and goes

1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:25.960
<v Speaker 2>so deep it almost like hits his spine, though this

1:11:26.040 --> 1:11:28.639
<v Speaker 2>isn't seen until his body thaws. At a lower altitude

1:11:28.640 --> 1:11:31.960
<v Speaker 2>because they bring him down. A National Geographic reporter named

1:11:32.040 --> 1:11:34.680
<v Speaker 2>Lauren McIntyre, who goes with this group, comes to the

1:11:34.720 --> 1:11:37.840
<v Speaker 2>conclusion that quote, there is no mystery at all. He

1:11:37.920 --> 1:11:41.160
<v Speaker 2>fell on his ice axe and he injured himself. But

1:11:41.200 --> 1:11:43.400
<v Speaker 2>remember his ice as isn't with him when they find him,

1:11:43.400 --> 1:11:46.080
<v Speaker 2>but he could have fallen on it left it behind.

1:11:46.600 --> 1:11:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Then he says he was in so much discomfort and

1:11:48.840 --> 1:11:50.920
<v Speaker 2>pain when he was nearly a base camp that he

1:11:51.000 --> 1:11:53.280
<v Speaker 2>finally got off the steep part of the glacier, got

1:11:53.320 --> 1:11:55.800
<v Speaker 2>down on the flat. He had evidently stopped, sat down

1:11:55.840 --> 1:11:58.000
<v Speaker 2>and removed his gloves and was probably trying to examine

1:11:58.080 --> 1:12:00.559
<v Speaker 2>himself in his wound when he fell on anous and

1:12:00.600 --> 1:12:03.559
<v Speaker 2>froze to death. So he fell on his ice pick.

1:12:03.600 --> 1:12:06.680
<v Speaker 2>As that consensus, he tells us to the press in

1:12:06.720 --> 1:12:08.160
<v Speaker 2>a statement, and it seems like a lot of people

1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:10.160
<v Speaker 2>take him for his word, even though he's just a

1:12:10.160 --> 1:12:13.880
<v Speaker 2>reporter and not a forensic investigator. Alfonso the Guy feels

1:12:14.000 --> 1:12:17.240
<v Speaker 2>incredibly uneasy about all of this because he specifically remembers

1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:20.599
<v Speaker 2>the two other climbers saying they had seen John's body

1:12:20.600 --> 1:12:23.800
<v Speaker 2>in a seated position, not laying down. With his head

1:12:23.840 --> 1:12:26.360
<v Speaker 2>in his hands. But of course they had been hallucinating.

1:12:26.400 --> 1:12:26.760
<v Speaker 1>You can't.

1:12:26.800 --> 1:12:28.880
<v Speaker 2>You have to remember the whole time that these two

1:12:29.160 --> 1:12:32.519
<v Speaker 2>who survived were probably suffering from out some sort of

1:12:32.520 --> 1:12:36.000
<v Speaker 2>altigide sickness as well. Janet's body is not found until

1:12:36.040 --> 1:12:41.040
<v Speaker 2>February nineteen seventy five. Ernesto Cumballero and his son Alberto,

1:12:41.360 --> 1:12:46.519
<v Speaker 2>who's seventeen, are with another climber named Guillermo Vieio when

1:12:46.560 --> 1:12:49.760
<v Speaker 2>they have to scrap their summit attempt and decide to

1:12:49.760 --> 1:12:52.519
<v Speaker 2>climb down via the Polish glacier in a field of

1:12:52.720 --> 1:12:56.240
<v Speaker 2>penny ten days and covered by some snow. So it's

1:12:56.280 --> 1:12:58.759
<v Speaker 2>a field of those and it's covered by some snow.

1:12:58.800 --> 1:12:59.960
<v Speaker 2>They find Janet's body.

1:13:00.400 --> 1:13:00.879
<v Speaker 1>Ooh.

1:13:01.000 --> 1:13:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Her face is blackened from two years of exposure, but

1:13:04.000 --> 1:13:08.280
<v Speaker 2>it's also severely injured with exposed bone, and there is

1:13:08.320 --> 1:13:11.360
<v Speaker 2>blood visible on her face and jacket. And like John,

1:13:11.640 --> 1:13:16.080
<v Speaker 2>she's missing one crampon and her ice axe. Her hands

1:13:16.120 --> 1:13:20.080
<v Speaker 2>are bare. She's tangled up in ropes, and this is

1:13:20.080 --> 1:13:22.439
<v Speaker 2>super ran. A rock is found sitting on top of

1:13:22.439 --> 1:13:25.000
<v Speaker 2>her body, and there are no rocks around. She's in

1:13:25.040 --> 1:13:29.800
<v Speaker 2>this ice field field exactly. So she's found on a

1:13:29.800 --> 1:13:33.120
<v Speaker 2>shallow slope far from anywhere she could have possibly fallen

1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:36.439
<v Speaker 2>a long distance with Zeller, So that narrative that that's

1:13:36.479 --> 1:13:40.040
<v Speaker 2>how he lost her and she could have died isn't true.

1:13:40.600 --> 1:13:42.840
<v Speaker 2>So Alberta is a teenager and doesn't really know it

1:13:42.880 --> 1:13:45.160
<v Speaker 2>to make up at all. But the other two men

1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:47.960
<v Speaker 2>will say that they are sure Janet was murdered. Of

1:13:48.000 --> 1:13:50.479
<v Speaker 2>course they are just as an expert as a National

1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:54.320
<v Speaker 2>geographic reporter who swears the opposite. But it doesn't look

1:13:54.439 --> 1:13:57.360
<v Speaker 2>like it squares up with the official narrative of the expedition.

1:13:57.960 --> 1:14:00.720
<v Speaker 1>It's just such a weird thing for a porter to

1:14:00.840 --> 1:14:03.040
<v Speaker 1>come out and just be like, I'm almost positive that

1:14:03.120 --> 1:14:05.320
<v Speaker 1>this is what happened, where it's like, sorry, aren't you

1:14:05.360 --> 1:14:06.519
<v Speaker 1>a reporter? Right?

1:14:06.640 --> 1:14:06.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

1:14:06.840 --> 1:14:07.240
<v Speaker 1>I would you.

1:14:07.320 --> 1:14:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Supposed to speculate?

1:14:08.439 --> 1:14:09.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, totally.

1:14:10.000 --> 1:14:12.760
<v Speaker 2>A medical student who was present for the autopsies of

1:14:12.800 --> 1:14:15.599
<v Speaker 2>both John and Janet says that John had a skull

1:14:15.640 --> 1:14:18.800
<v Speaker 2>fracture and that hole in his abdomen which looked to

1:14:18.880 --> 1:14:21.759
<v Speaker 2>him like it could have been made by an ice crew,

1:14:22.720 --> 1:14:25.839
<v Speaker 2>maybe your ice pick as well. The injuries to Janet's

1:14:25.840 --> 1:14:28.479
<v Speaker 2>face and damage to her boot looked like she had

1:14:28.520 --> 1:14:32.000
<v Speaker 2>been hit hard several times, so it looked like she

1:14:32.080 --> 1:14:33.599
<v Speaker 2>had plant forestroma to her face.

1:14:33.760 --> 1:14:34.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1:14:34.200 --> 1:14:37.080
<v Speaker 2>The medical student who is now a neurosurgeon, is also

1:14:37.160 --> 1:14:40.320
<v Speaker 2>convinced that they were killed and that their deaths were

1:14:40.360 --> 1:14:43.880
<v Speaker 2>not accidental. He says that this was the consensus and

1:14:43.920 --> 1:14:46.679
<v Speaker 2>that the medical examiner believed the same, and they're all

1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:49.200
<v Speaker 2>dead now, so he's kind of one of the last

1:14:49.240 --> 1:14:52.200
<v Speaker 2>people who can verify that. Janet is buried at the

1:14:52.200 --> 1:14:55.559
<v Speaker 2>small cemetery at the base of the Aconcagua, which she

1:14:55.680 --> 1:14:58.960
<v Speaker 2>had told her family she wanted before the expedition if

1:14:59.000 --> 1:15:01.599
<v Speaker 2>she perished on the mountain. No one from her family

1:15:01.640 --> 1:15:04.320
<v Speaker 2>is able to attend, but someone leaves flowers with the

1:15:04.360 --> 1:15:08.799
<v Speaker 2>note detu madre or from your mother on her grave.

1:15:09.080 --> 1:15:11.479
<v Speaker 2>That's so sad, and the only item her sister receives

1:15:11.479 --> 1:15:14.559
<v Speaker 2>it is Janet's ring with a brown stone from her finger,

1:15:14.880 --> 1:15:19.280
<v Speaker 2>and Judy still has it today. Unfortunately, any chance of

1:15:19.320 --> 1:15:22.000
<v Speaker 2>for their investigation, so here's maybe there would have been

1:15:22.040 --> 1:15:24.479
<v Speaker 2>a big investigation and the answers would have happened. However,

1:15:25.680 --> 1:15:29.680
<v Speaker 2>it's nineteen seventy six in Argentina and there is a

1:15:31.120 --> 1:15:35.360
<v Speaker 2>there's a violent military coup that overthrows a democratically elected

1:15:35.360 --> 1:15:40.840
<v Speaker 2>president Parone and establishes a military dictatorship that brutally just

1:15:41.160 --> 1:15:44.599
<v Speaker 2>consumes Argentina for years. I hate to gloss over that

1:15:44.640 --> 1:15:47.840
<v Speaker 2>because it's so important, And.

1:15:48.080 --> 1:15:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Just go watch the musical A Vida. You'll learn at

1:15:51.000 --> 1:15:53.240
<v Speaker 1>least one woman's perspective exactly.

1:15:53.400 --> 1:15:56.360
<v Speaker 2>So moving on just like that, but you know, there's

1:15:56.439 --> 1:16:00.160
<v Speaker 2>no chance of further investigation. Essentially, the last surviving thember

1:16:00.200 --> 1:16:04.280
<v Speaker 2>of the party, John Shelton, the mor No the Mormon

1:16:04.439 --> 1:16:08.680
<v Speaker 2>missionary missionary BYU student, was in hospice care at the

1:16:08.680 --> 1:16:11.880
<v Speaker 2>time of this New York Times article by John Branch

1:16:11.880 --> 1:16:14.640
<v Speaker 2>and Emily Ryan, and they go see him in his

1:16:14.680 --> 1:16:18.800
<v Speaker 2>hospice bed. He insists that there is no foul play.

1:16:18.880 --> 1:16:22.679
<v Speaker 2>He calls that idea hogwash, and he dies a month

1:16:22.720 --> 1:16:25.839
<v Speaker 2>before the article is published. But he firmly doesn't believe.

1:16:25.920 --> 1:16:27.880
<v Speaker 2>And but you know that's the narrative.

1:16:27.800 --> 1:16:30.200
<v Speaker 1>That's the narrative that he he was at the secret

1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:31.680
<v Speaker 1>meeting to establish.

1:16:31.360 --> 1:16:32.639
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, and he wasn't there.

1:16:33.320 --> 1:16:36.960
<v Speaker 1>He was, Oh yeah, he wasn't wasn't so, but you

1:16:36.960 --> 1:16:38.360
<v Speaker 1>know that's based on everyone.

1:16:38.640 --> 1:16:41.680
<v Speaker 2>That's his opinion, right, those around the uconcago community have

1:16:41.760 --> 1:16:45.160
<v Speaker 2>more mixed feelings. Even though the medical examiner felt certain

1:16:45.200 --> 1:16:48.760
<v Speaker 2>foul play had been involved, they might not adequately understand

1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:51.759
<v Speaker 2>the damage a fault in the mountain terrain could actually inflict.

1:16:51.880 --> 1:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>So that makes complete sense. But still, looking back at

1:16:55.400 --> 1:16:58.080
<v Speaker 2>the conditions at the time on the glacier, the amount

1:16:58.120 --> 1:17:00.439
<v Speaker 2>of soft snow would have made a very long fall

1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:05.160
<v Speaker 2>improbable or maybe impossible. So when Janet's camera is found,

1:17:05.200 --> 1:17:08.719
<v Speaker 2>the film is sent to a special archival photo development

1:17:08.760 --> 1:17:11.439
<v Speaker 2>company in Canada called Film Rescue.

1:17:11.360 --> 1:17:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Because they're like, what's on here?

1:17:13.000 --> 1:17:15.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and if just anyone tries to develop it, it's

1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:17.160
<v Speaker 2>going to get fucked up. So they are able to

1:17:17.200 --> 1:17:19.160
<v Speaker 2>get all the photos off of it, so the camera

1:17:19.280 --> 1:17:22.000
<v Speaker 2>film and another role of film they found are able

1:17:22.000 --> 1:17:25.639
<v Speaker 2>to be processed. And the pictures show the party mostly

1:17:25.680 --> 1:17:29.040
<v Speaker 2>smiling in those early stages of the journey, hauling gear

1:17:29.360 --> 1:17:33.200
<v Speaker 2>and setting up camp. The photos are beautiful and well composed,

1:17:34.080 --> 1:17:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and actually, can you show one of them, really beautiful photos.

1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:40.880
<v Speaker 2>This is on the mountain for fucking fifty years.

1:17:40.800 --> 1:17:43.360
<v Speaker 1>Wow, just sitting up there. Yeah.

1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Also, Zella and McMillan said, when she turned around and

1:17:46.880 --> 1:17:49.280
<v Speaker 2>saw that she was gone, he said, well, we weren't

1:17:49.520 --> 1:17:52.840
<v Speaker 2>tied together, so she could have just left. But that

1:17:52.880 --> 1:17:57.559
<v Speaker 2>one photo that she took, they're tied together. So is

1:17:57.600 --> 1:18:01.000
<v Speaker 2>that her last clue? They are tied together? Whoever took

1:18:01.040 --> 1:18:03.519
<v Speaker 2>this photo? And we're not totally positive which one of

1:18:03.520 --> 1:18:07.280
<v Speaker 2>them that is they are roped together? Yes?

1:18:07.560 --> 1:18:11.160
<v Speaker 1>So so why lie? Right? What's the lie about? Exactly?

1:18:11.720 --> 1:18:11.800
<v Speaker 3>So?

1:18:12.000 --> 1:18:14.679
<v Speaker 2>John Branch writes in the New York Times article, quote,

1:18:14.720 --> 1:18:18.240
<v Speaker 2>if she was oxygen deprived or delirious, she still knew

1:18:18.240 --> 1:18:21.479
<v Speaker 2>how to focus the lens, compose the frame, and hold

1:18:21.520 --> 1:18:25.240
<v Speaker 2>the camera study to take clear photographs. That is where

1:18:25.240 --> 1:18:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the film ends. That is where the legend begins. The

1:18:29.000 --> 1:18:31.599
<v Speaker 2>film does not solve the mystery. It adds to it.

1:18:31.600 --> 1:18:34.639
<v Speaker 2>It tells you what Johnson saw in her final hours,

1:18:35.200 --> 1:18:38.559
<v Speaker 2>but not how she felt, not how she died. Not

1:18:38.720 --> 1:18:42.280
<v Speaker 2>every discovery leads to revelation. Some just make you want

1:18:42.280 --> 1:18:45.439
<v Speaker 2>to know more. End quote. And that is the story

1:18:45.560 --> 1:18:48.960
<v Speaker 2>of the Aconcagua Mountain mystery. And you can punch me

1:18:49.000 --> 1:18:49.639
<v Speaker 2>in the face.

1:18:49.479 --> 1:18:51.840
<v Speaker 1>Just why, God damn.

1:18:52.320 --> 1:18:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Just one time you can punch me in the pit.

1:18:54.080 --> 1:18:57.760
<v Speaker 1>You really set that up like we were gonna get sorry, But.

1:18:57.960 --> 1:19:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's speculate care speculation allegedly. Allegedly, this is just

1:19:02.000 --> 1:19:04.720
<v Speaker 2>a true crime podcast theory. We're not doctors, that's right.

1:19:05.240 --> 1:19:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Did one of them go?

1:19:06.960 --> 1:19:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Although we could have been it's been ten years, we

1:19:08.760 --> 1:19:09.799
<v Speaker 1>could have gotten a PhD.

1:19:09.840 --> 1:19:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Why don't we have our fucking honorary degrees from Sacramento

1:19:15.120 --> 1:19:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and La City College?

1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:19.639
<v Speaker 1>Yause they know we're fool of shit, so speaking up.

1:19:19.680 --> 1:19:23.320
<v Speaker 2>So maybe one of them actually kind of had lost

1:19:23.320 --> 1:19:27.559
<v Speaker 2>it on the mountain and was hallucinating something and killed them.

1:19:27.880 --> 1:19:30.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she was not sexually assaulted as well.

1:19:30.160 --> 1:19:33.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that a sane, normal person would be

1:19:33.360 --> 1:19:35.960
<v Speaker 2>able or have the energy to attack someone like that

1:19:37.200 --> 1:19:40.840
<v Speaker 2>with being at that elevation. But if you were hallucinating,

1:19:41.000 --> 1:19:44.040
<v Speaker 2>if you were, if you had delirious.

1:19:43.640 --> 1:19:46.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if you didn't like a person to the degree

1:19:46.760 --> 1:19:49.840
<v Speaker 1>where they kind of invaded your space, right, and then

1:19:49.920 --> 1:19:53.240
<v Speaker 1>it's not just anybody, it's this lady that's I'm going

1:19:53.320 --> 1:19:56.719
<v Speaker 1>to get there for myself, is their perception for some reason.

1:19:57.280 --> 1:19:59.240
<v Speaker 2>But or she was pushing to keep going and they

1:19:59.240 --> 1:20:01.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to. But I don't think that there was

1:20:01.920 --> 1:20:04.360
<v Speaker 2>that level of linear thinking at.

1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:07.760
<v Speaker 1>That height because they had such bad Yeah, like.

1:20:07.760 --> 1:20:12.080
<v Speaker 2>On the way down, he saw, you know, he was hallucinated.

1:20:12.360 --> 1:20:14.800
<v Speaker 2>So what happened up there? Did he hallucinate?

1:20:14.880 --> 1:20:15.040
<v Speaker 1>There?

1:20:15.080 --> 1:20:17.519
<v Speaker 2>He was at war and these were soldiers, and you.

1:20:17.479 --> 1:20:20.200
<v Speaker 1>Know, but I guess if that were the case, then

1:20:20.240 --> 1:20:22.719
<v Speaker 1>when they all got together to put a story together,

1:20:22.960 --> 1:20:25.360
<v Speaker 1>why wouldn't they be able to say, hey, listen, these

1:20:25.400 --> 1:20:28.120
<v Speaker 1>are the myriad stories we have because these are the

1:20:28.160 --> 1:20:30.519
<v Speaker 1>crazy things we experienced.

1:20:29.920 --> 1:20:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Because mountaineering would change forever after that. Like I see them,

1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:40.920
<v Speaker 2>these mountaineers, these guys, guys banding together and being like,

1:20:41.040 --> 1:20:43.400
<v Speaker 2>let's not you know, we're going to get a bunch

1:20:43.479 --> 1:20:47.040
<v Speaker 2>of press over this. We just wanted like this to

1:20:47.400 --> 1:20:50.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of be hidden so we can go on doing

1:20:50.000 --> 1:20:52.680
<v Speaker 2>what we're doing, and we don't want to ruin these guys.

1:20:52.680 --> 1:20:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Like the memories of these people and the lives of

1:20:54.960 --> 1:20:57.360
<v Speaker 2>the living ones. This is speculation. I'm not saying this

1:20:57.400 --> 1:21:00.880
<v Speaker 2>is true or right. Their entire families because they had

1:21:00.920 --> 1:21:04.280
<v Speaker 2>altitude sickness and did and some crazy thing yeah that

1:21:04.320 --> 1:21:07.360
<v Speaker 2>they weren't aware of, they don't remember and you know,

1:21:07.400 --> 1:21:11.320
<v Speaker 2>in their minds aren't responsible for. So I'm not saying

1:21:11.360 --> 1:21:12.240
<v Speaker 2>I think that's true.

1:21:12.040 --> 1:21:15.400
<v Speaker 1>But it sounds like you think that's possible. Like as

1:21:15.400 --> 1:21:18.479
<v Speaker 1>opposed to the usual where it's like they killed her

1:21:18.560 --> 1:21:21.679
<v Speaker 1>or whatever. It's like you're like, something weird happened, for sure,

1:21:22.280 --> 1:21:26.240
<v Speaker 1>But what they're protecting probably isn't just a pure killer, right,

1:21:26.360 --> 1:21:31.759
<v Speaker 1>it's more of an accident situational. Yeah, I know, doesn't

1:21:31.760 --> 1:21:33.680
<v Speaker 1>it seem like though, that's a little bit more of

1:21:33.680 --> 1:21:37.760
<v Speaker 1>an argument of not mountaineering, because it's like you'll get oh,

1:21:37.760 --> 1:21:40.640
<v Speaker 1>you'll get up there, no, yeah, and you'll be hallucinating

1:21:40.800 --> 1:21:43.519
<v Speaker 1>dead soldiers all around you because you're not supposed to

1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:43.960
<v Speaker 1>go up that.

1:21:43.960 --> 1:21:46.240
<v Speaker 2>High, right, because our bodies and brains were not meant

1:21:46.240 --> 1:21:49.200
<v Speaker 2>for that elevation. Yeah, I mean I got sick in

1:21:49.360 --> 1:21:51.320
<v Speaker 2>Denver because it was too fucking high.

1:21:51.400 --> 1:21:53.639
<v Speaker 1>How high we were on stage in Salt Lake City

1:21:53.720 --> 1:21:55.400
<v Speaker 1>the first time we played there, we had to take

1:21:55.439 --> 1:21:58.600
<v Speaker 1>oxygen in the va It's crazy, right, And that was

1:21:58.640 --> 1:22:01.800
<v Speaker 1>like I'm guessing right now, three thousand feet above sea level,

1:22:01.880 --> 1:22:05.719
<v Speaker 1>like probably not even close to this, it's serious.

1:22:06.080 --> 1:22:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but a camera being found in the fucking ice.

1:22:10.560 --> 1:22:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Also, it does sound a little fake the I'm saying

1:22:13.160 --> 1:22:16.559
<v Speaker 1>she said my name is Janet. That whole story, yeah,

1:22:16.640 --> 1:22:21.800
<v Speaker 1>seems fake, Yeah, and oversimplified, Like if you fell and

1:22:21.840 --> 1:22:24.800
<v Speaker 1>were laying there dying. Yeah, wouldn't you just be like

1:22:25.760 --> 1:22:27.519
<v Speaker 1>cat help leave me or get help?

1:22:27.560 --> 1:22:30.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think leave me makes sense if you're

1:22:30.520 --> 1:22:31.320
<v Speaker 2>a true mountaineer.

1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:31.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

1:22:31.960 --> 1:22:34.559
<v Speaker 2>Tell us what mountaineering is like at my favorite murder

1:22:34.560 --> 1:22:37.759
<v Speaker 2>at gmount And Wow, I don't know.

1:22:38.240 --> 1:22:41.760
<v Speaker 1>What other mysteries will be uncovered over the years as

1:22:41.800 --> 1:22:46.120
<v Speaker 1>the snow melts. Those crampons dos those crampons come rolling along?

1:22:46.200 --> 1:22:47.960
<v Speaker 1>Ice pick? DNA tests them.

1:22:48.600 --> 1:22:49.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean he had a hole in.

1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:54.439
<v Speaker 1>His Yeah, he got ice picked somehow. Yea, yeah, did he.

1:22:54.400 --> 1:22:54.880
<v Speaker 2>Fall on it?

1:22:55.280 --> 1:22:59.360
<v Speaker 1>That's possible. Oh man, Well that was a great story.

1:22:59.520 --> 1:23:01.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean that was very compelling.

1:23:01.360 --> 1:23:03.639
<v Speaker 2>I've been excited to tell you about it. Despite the ending,

1:23:03.760 --> 1:23:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I apologize.

1:23:04.600 --> 1:23:08.040
<v Speaker 1>I love seventies photographs. Yeah, I love the idea that

1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:10.519
<v Speaker 1>at the very end, it's like except for that they

1:23:10.800 --> 1:23:13.040
<v Speaker 1>were tied together. Right, that's wild?

1:23:13.280 --> 1:23:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, Well, jump rope, jump on a trampoline. Keep

1:23:17.040 --> 1:23:19.400
<v Speaker 2>it positive, don't go on a mountain, don't go hiking

1:23:19.479 --> 1:23:20.120
<v Speaker 2>up on a mountain.

1:23:20.160 --> 1:23:23.120
<v Speaker 1>Don't be a hero. Don't be a hero. Speak up.

1:23:23.240 --> 1:23:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Your voice is wanted and needed, Yes, definitely, And of course,

1:23:27.040 --> 1:23:28.919
<v Speaker 1>stay sexy and don't get murdered.

1:23:29.479 --> 1:23:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

1:23:39.960 --> 1:23:41.639
<v Speaker 1>This has been an exactly right production.

1:23:41.840 --> 1:23:44.519
<v Speaker 2>Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1:23:44.600 --> 1:23:45.320
<v Speaker 2>is Tessa Hughes.

1:23:45.400 --> 1:23:47.320
<v Speaker 1>Our editor is Aristotle Lascevedo.

1:23:47.479 --> 1:23:49.600
<v Speaker 2>This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

1:23:49.760 --> 1:23:52.360
<v Speaker 1>Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1:23:52.520 --> 1:23:55.439
<v Speaker 2>Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot.

1:23:55.240 --> 1:23:58.040
<v Speaker 1>Com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

1:23:58.120 --> 1:24:00.519
<v Speaker 2>Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iheartrate you app,

1:24:00.640 --> 1:24:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:24:02.920 --> 1:24:05.320
<v Speaker 1>And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

1:24:05.439 --> 1:24:07.519
<v Speaker 2>And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and

1:24:07.560 --> 1:24:10.040
<v Speaker 2>the remind Me buttons. That's the best way you can

1:24:10.080 --> 1:24:10.840
<v Speaker 2>support our show.

1:24:11.160 --> 1:24:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Goodbye,