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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome.

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Speaker 2: It's my favorite murder.

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Speaker 1: That's Georgia Hardstar. That's Karen kil Gariff, and today we're

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Speaker 1: going to beautiful Italy.

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Speaker 2: I've been practicing my horrible Italian on Karen since I'm

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Speaker 2: going Oh.

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Speaker 1: Yes, she's pulling out the chef's case Italian corner the chefs,

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Speaker 1: did you preparado? Yes? I made coffee for you. Gratzi,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna do great.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Right now, I'm flashing back to pictures of very patient

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Speaker 1: waiters waiting for me to do that, and then being like, Madame,

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Speaker 1: I was speak English with you. I was like, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much, thank you.

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Speaker 2: I just they just want to see you sweat a

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Speaker 2: little bit. Yes, put some effort into it.

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Speaker 1: Please have some respect for the country you're in.

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Speaker 2: Yes. And also we're supposed to say we may say, O,

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Speaker 2: where are you from? You say I'm from the Republic

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Speaker 2: of California instead of the US.

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm cool. That's right.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of I feel like obligated that we have to

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Speaker 2: talk about this real quick.

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Speaker 1: Do I move this off?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? This is getting serious. Okay. We have a lot

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Speaker 2: of listeners that live in LA and that are over

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Speaker 2: eighteen and I think we need to make sure we

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Speaker 2: tell them that they have to vote for mayor. Oh,

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Speaker 2: and they cannot vote for Spencer Pratt. And I know

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Speaker 2: that they you're eighteen, You're like, I don't give a shit,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't bother me. You have to vote, so you

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Speaker 2: cancel out the people that are stupid that are voting

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Speaker 2: for him, because we know our listeners aren't stupid.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to vote for him, that's right, but

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Speaker 1: they might not go vote that day. True, That's a

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Speaker 1: great point to me. Yeah, I also think I will

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Speaker 1: say I believe in the children who are so much

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Speaker 1: smarter and more active than we ever had to be. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the privilege of a political from the nineties I think

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Speaker 1: about and shiver with how disgusting it is. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: how much I'd never helped or did anything. And I

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Speaker 1: think these kids today know what's what. Also, speaking of which,

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Speaker 1: I'm a real believer in Nitya Rahman. She's also running.

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Speaker 1: You know, she's amazing because they do everything they can

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Speaker 1: to keep her down. They do everything they can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a debate all on its own. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: vote for someone.

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Speaker 1: You believe in.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to be him.

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Speaker 1: We've played around with democracy too much and we are

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Speaker 1: now actively doing damage and harmed people every single day

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Speaker 1: with non action.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, that's I felt like we had to

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Speaker 2: say that just.

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Speaker 1: Because and now and we're back because this is the

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Speaker 1: crazy world we've had to live in where we simultaneously

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Speaker 1: deal with the fall of democracy and then hey, Georgia's

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Speaker 1: excited to go on vacation to the wonderful world of Italy.

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Speaker 2: I feel like there might have been a glitch in

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Speaker 2: the matrix and it's freaking me out a little bit

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Speaker 2: right the second Yeah, well, before we walked in this room,

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Speaker 2: maybe this room is a time machine who the fuck knows,

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Speaker 2: or time capsule or something. But the hot Dog phone

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Speaker 2: box is upside down and it's freaking me out.

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Speaker 1: You know what it is? The other podcasts that shoot

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Speaker 1: in here, they take our stuff down and put other stuff.

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Speaker 2: Someone's fucking with us. Who did that bridge?

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Speaker 1: You specifically Paula were on that. That's really funny. Wait,

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Speaker 1: was this like an easter egg that he put in

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Speaker 1: to say? Hey?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think paul did, but it just happened

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Speaker 2: on It doesn't clean up after himself.

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Speaker 1: Ill, I was in here, not that long ago.

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Speaker 2: Someone turned the hot dog phone upside down and blew

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Speaker 2: my mind.

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Speaker 1: Seriously, there's three people crying in the control room right

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Speaker 1: now because it's the intensity, which you know.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: I love it. I went to the desert this past

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Speaker 1: weekend for a last minute birthday trip hot springs, yes,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't plan anything. And then I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't I'm not just going to sit here, and

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Speaker 1: I might as well go and sit in some yes,

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Speaker 1: thinner magnesium watery. Man, I'm a believer. You look glowy.

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you? Well, I really Also, I think I've

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Speaker 1: gone over the I went over the Stress waterfall, and

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Speaker 1: for a while I was churning down in those the

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Speaker 1: white water at the bottom of the Stress waterfall.

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Speaker 2: See you in a barrel, just like an old tiny barrel.

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Speaker 1: Right, I was down there, water straight down on my

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Speaker 1: head for a while. I popped straight back up and

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Speaker 1: I landed in a hot spring out by the desert. Also,

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Speaker 1: it was one hundred and like three or four. At

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Speaker 1: one point we just sat by a pool like I

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Speaker 1: was a person that gets tan and just like laid

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Speaker 1: around by the pool for like hours, so nice. It

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Speaker 1: was great. I like less self help books and more

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Speaker 1: like just go just go sit in the sun, or

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Speaker 1: just go bake and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, get the dopamine, yes, somehow actively Yeah, but like

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Speaker 2: good for you dopamine, not like alcohol.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, do something that immediately have an effect on

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Speaker 1: your nervous system, which that really does. I didn't realize.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that place.

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Speaker 1: I'm a real desert lizard.

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Speaker 2: Should get into it? Or do you want to hear

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Speaker 2: about jump roping? Nope, let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: But it's jump roping.

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Speaker 2: I just started a new personal challenge. If you want

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Speaker 2: to join me, jump the rope five minutes a day. Yes,

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Speaker 2: though it's great, I'm going to turn it into content

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Speaker 2: because nothing can happen without turning into content.

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Speaker 1: Or you can learn to double dutch eventually. Are you

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Speaker 1: going to build up to a skill.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to learn to jump rope first because it's

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Speaker 2: harder than I remember.

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Speaker 1: But do you feel like you might be able to

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Speaker 1: get skip rope? Yeah? That bang the idea?

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Speaker 2: Right then then I'm a jump rope influencer.

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Speaker 1: Yes, then you can go to New York City where

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Speaker 1: I watch tiktoks of people jumping into those double dutches

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Speaker 1: that pop up in a square as a kid, you could, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I could do it a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I can know I could do it.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: That's how cocky I am and how much I don't

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Speaker 2: know how old I am. I bet I could get

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 1: I'll immediately break your hip the second you do like,

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Speaker 1: Oh god, that's really good. I'm totally down for that.

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Speaker 1: Do you have to check in and stuff?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Yes, we don't do it.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll never talk about it again. I mean that

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Speaker 1: is our way, truly. But it's fun to dry things. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know. I have a mini trampoline that I jump

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Speaker 1: on all the time.

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Speaker 2: I do too. I'd never jump on it, it's so hard.

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Speaker 1: What about this, I'm going to get on my mini trampling.

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Speaker 1: You do your jump rope, yes, and we'll do parallel

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Speaker 1: jumping therapies and then report back.

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, my favorite jumping apparatus.

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Speaker 1: This is not an integration of any kind. I'm not

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Speaker 1: being paid by Big Jump Blue at all. It's not

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Speaker 1: what's happened I am.

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Speaker 2: She didn't get that, did you see, Katie even Buskirk

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Speaker 2: right before we started recording. No, she's our incredible integration person.

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Speaker 2: AD sales ad sales manager. She texts us and said,

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Speaker 2: I was looking through where your listeners are across the world,

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Speaker 2: and then she wrote with a fucking gift Vatican City.

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Speaker 1: That's not true, it's true inside the Vatican.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we have listeners in Vatican City.

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Speaker 1: Okay, then may just for one second.

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Speaker 2: We are trying it all the way back to Italy.

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Speaker 1: Please get it back up, for get it it?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 1: What uh? Hello? Every every citizen of Vatican City that's

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Speaker 1: listening to us right now, you're putting it over the

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Speaker 1: Maybe please go into your archives that you don't let

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Speaker 1: the public into, so we can see the dragon eggs

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Speaker 1: and the ghosts that are caught in a draggedy an.

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Speaker 1: All we want to see.

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Speaker 2: It all has to be a listener who just does

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Speaker 2: the archives. Gotta be just like a custodian.

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Speaker 1: A custodian, a file folder. Ten to tour.

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Speaker 2: We'll give you some merch.

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Speaker 1: You can have any sweatshirt you want if you tell

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Speaker 1: us the secrets of the Vatican and let us look inside. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: either soon. I have watched the secrets of the Vatican. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they don't tie you in good secrets like it's

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Speaker 1: like Mary Magdalene is actually the one.

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Speaker 2: No, nobody knows the good secrets, but the people who

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Speaker 2: hate them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that.

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Speaker 2: It's if you're going to talk about fucking time travel,

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Speaker 2: cities and places, that's obviously.

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Speaker 1: That's the number one port right. They do a lot

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Speaker 1: of old crazy shit there. We did go on. We

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Speaker 1: went on a tour of the Vatican because Paige Hurwitz,

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Speaker 1: our friend an Ep, made us go there, a person

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Speaker 1: who was born and raised very Jewish. Yeah, She's like,

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Speaker 1: we have to go to the Vatican. And it was

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Speaker 1: me Janet and Adrian were like, we don't want to.

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Speaker 1: It made us go. Yes. It was incredible, except for

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Speaker 1: I did get in trouble for filming inside the Assistine

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Speaker 1: Chapel and I was doing it for my dad, where

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Speaker 1: I was like he's going to lose his mind, and

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Speaker 1: the man like put my hand down and he was like,

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Speaker 1: be respectful of other people's religions, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I think we're the number one of the classic Catholics

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Speaker 1: in this religion. Like my grandparents paid for this fucking thing.

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Speaker 1: They gave you all kinds of money they didn't have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Vatican City, here we go.

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Speaker 1: What here's the thing you're flipping through Netflix, You're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: look there's a true crime podcast. Let me click on

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Speaker 1: here and see what they're doing. Are they talking about this?

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Speaker 1: What is this? Why is this?

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Speaker 2: This is so dominant? Why those two women? I can't

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Speaker 2: stand women.

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Speaker 1: Listen to their voice. I think their opinions matter. They

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Speaker 1: can't even speak a telling you even to go into

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Speaker 1: the kitchen and be tradwives. And really, meanwhile, meanwhile, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to we refuse. Meanwhile, that's not in the plans.

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Speaker 2: Okay, real quick, let's do some case updates.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if we are true crime podcasts, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about because big things have actually been happening in the

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Speaker 1: true crime space that's true we're in. And the craziest

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Speaker 1: one is that the convictions in the Murdoch murders have

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Speaker 1: been overturned. Alec Murdoch convicted for the murders of his

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Speaker 1: wife Maggie and his son Paul. That guilty verdict has

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Speaker 1: been tossed by the South Carolina Supreme Court, citing shocking

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Speaker 1: jury interference by a woman named Becky Hill, a court

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Speaker 1: clerk who managed jurors during his twenty twenty three trial.

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Speaker 1: What'd she do? They say, she improperly influenced the jury,

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Speaker 1: among other things, by advising them not to trust the

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Speaker 1: defense's evidence. Can't do that, Well, that's egregious, I mean

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Speaker 1: absolutely not. The South Carolina Supreme Court seems to agree

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Speaker 1: with this, saying in its recent decision, Hill had quote

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Speaker 1: placed her fingers on the scales of justice. But we

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Speaker 1: should say Becky Hill has denied influencing the jury, although

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Speaker 1: she did. What would you do? She pled guilty to

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Speaker 1: misusing public funds and using your job for personal gain

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Speaker 1: and specifically to promote her book about the trial. Oh

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Speaker 1: so it's a wash. That's no good. Yeah, because here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. I think they get her on this crime. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: justifiably so. And then it's like and perfect because now

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Speaker 1: we undo the whole sweater right, totally unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, I have a quick update on you know,

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Speaker 2: the case that it's nearest to my heart, which is

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Speaker 2: the Yoworkshop murders. Yeah, I covered in episode seventy Live

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Speaker 2: at the Moon Tower. And so they have finally found

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Speaker 2: the actual killer based on DNA it's clearly this person.

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Speaker 2: So the City of Austin is expected to pay thirty

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Speaker 2: five million in restitution to the four teenage boys who

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Speaker 2: were arrested and convicted of this. So Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott,

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Speaker 2: Forrest Welborn, and the family of Maurice Pearce who died

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Speaker 2: in twenty ten. So thirty five million. Yeah, it's taken

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Speaker 2: a long time, but they're at least getting some justice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, is it justice or just like, at least

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Speaker 1: they're getting some relief from the difficulties that being convicted

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Speaker 1: for this crime is probably created in their lives.

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Speaker 2: And you can if you watch the documentary that was

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Speaker 2: on HBO. I think they're in it and they're clearly

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Speaker 2: struggling still.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, oh that all case.

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Speaker 2: All right, God, well we have podcast network.

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Speaker 1: It's time to be positive. Okay. So this week on Ghosted,

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Speaker 1: Ross is joined by the scrumptiously spooky drag sensation Pineapple Honeydew.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, are you familiar with pineapples work?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm not enough.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to watch. They get into apple atch

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Speaker 1: and superstitions, dreams and Pineapple's own uncanny manifestations.

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Speaker 2: And then on I Said No Gifts, bridger Or avoids

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Speaker 2: a full blown argument when writer comedian Chloe Radcliffe arrives

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Speaker 2: with a gift. Then the two discussed Craigslist killers, bed

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Speaker 2: bug immunity, and dating delicate men.

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Speaker 1: It's like a conversation just for us. Then over on

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Speaker 1: this podcast Will Kill You Aaron and Aaron dive into

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Speaker 1: his toe plasmosis, which is among the most widespread fungal

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Speaker 1: infections in North America.

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Speaker 2: What is it about me and them that makes me

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Speaker 2: so excited about that?

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Speaker 1: Because you know you're now going to listen to that

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Speaker 1: episode and now you'll be an expert on the widespread

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Speaker 1: fungal infections in North America.

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Speaker 2: Love Fungus.

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Speaker 1: They also discuss baths bird's tuberculosis and the surprising history

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Speaker 1: behind this disease is discovery. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's gonna be good. Finally, on Hollywood Land, Jake

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Speaker 2: and Zeth tell the story of the legendary Steve McQueen

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Speaker 2: from Beers with Elvis to Charles Manson's hit List. This

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Speaker 2: story never takes its foot off the gas.

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Speaker 1: That's our graceland, Hollywood Land vibe over there, and just

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Speaker 1: for everybody to know, in the merch corner, we have

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Speaker 1: looked around this terrible world of ours and decided to

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Speaker 1: officially restock that this is terrible. Keep going mug. You

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Speaker 1: asked for it. There.

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Speaker 2: It is blue on blue and it's on both sides now,

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Speaker 2: which I really love.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that color combination. It's very nineteen eighty one, totally.

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Speaker 1: I love it. That's a good mug.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Also, don't forget my Ontario mug from touring in like

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. I probably got it at a Starbucks's. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's Starbucks for sure, or it was given to us.

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Speaker 1: If you gave this to us and you're seeing this

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Speaker 1: right now, please write in and tell us what it

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Speaker 1: was like. Okay, all right, you're first. I'm first today. Wait,

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Speaker 1: it's December eighteen sixteen, so a while ago, a baby

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Speaker 1: girl named Elizabeth is born in Massachusetts in a comfortable

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Speaker 1: household by two parents who can afford to educate their children.

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Speaker 1: Her two brothers are sent to all boys schools, while

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth will eventually be trained with other young girls to

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Speaker 1: someday become school teachers. She is a curious, driven, and

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Speaker 1: exceptionally bright young girl. These are all qualities that would

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Speaker 1: be celebrated if they were displayed by her brothers, but

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Speaker 1: we're talking about eighteen sixteen. An intellectually gifted girl invites

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Speaker 1: scrutiny and criticism and screams of kill the wit Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: will learn the hardest way she can. Society prefers their

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Speaker 1: ladies to be nice and to be quiet, and when

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Speaker 1: they're not, when they dare to use their brains to

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Speaker 1: question authority or their husbands, that intelligence will be used

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Speaker 1: against them and they will be deemed too dangerous for

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Speaker 1: their own well being. And that usually back then meant

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Speaker 1: being institutionalized. When Elizabeth is forcibly committed to a psychiatric institution,

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Speaker 1: she witnesses and experiences genuine harm, but it also radicalizes

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Speaker 1: her and she will begin to keep a diary, writing

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Speaker 1: down everything she sees. And when she finally gets to

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Speaker 1: tell her story, she will not be nice or quiet

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Speaker 1: about it. She will change the world. Wow, this is

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Speaker 1: the story of Elizabeth Parsons.

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Speaker 2: Where Packard Elizabeth Parsons.

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Speaker 1: Where Packard Packer. She has three last names like a

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Speaker 1: modern day lady. Maren. Read the book The Woman They

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Speaker 1: Could Not Silence by author Kate Moore who wrote The

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Speaker 1: Radium Girls. Oh wow. Yeah, and that's the main source

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Speaker 1: that was used today. Any other source is listed in

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Speaker 1: our show notes, but it's mostly the work of Kate Moore.

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Speaker 1: So Elizabeth Parsons Ware grows up very religious. Her father,

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Speaker 1: Samuel Ware, is a minister with Calvinist leanings, so pretty

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Speaker 1: bleak lens of Christianity that says all humans are inherently sinful,

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Speaker 1: and salvation isn't determined by you making good choices or

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Speaker 1: being a good person. It's just kind of randomly what

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Speaker 1: God decides based on like I like you, you'll be saved,

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Speaker 1: you won't. Sucks pretty fear inducing at all times, so

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Speaker 1: you kind of can't do anything right. You're always apologizing.

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Speaker 1: We've all better there. So the Wares run a very

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Speaker 1: god fearing, theologically strict household, and yet they're very progressive

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Speaker 1: about their daughter's educations. For a girl of her era,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth's education is an unusually rigorous one, and it also

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Speaker 1: probably helps that they live near Amherst College, which kind

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Speaker 1: of provides this intellectual backdrop, so that influence is the

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Speaker 1: way she sees the world. Of course, by the time

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirty five rolls around, nineteen year old Elizabeth is

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Speaker 1: working as a teacher until her career is interrupted by

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Speaker 1: what doctors will refer to the doctors of the time

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Speaker 1: will refer to as brain fever. Her symptoms include headaches, chills, fever,

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Speaker 1: and confusion. Today, she would likely be diagnosed with a

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Speaker 1: viral or a bacterial brain infection like encephalitis or meningitis. Wow,

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Speaker 1: those are fully treatable with modern medicine. But it's eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty five, So doctors theorize that Elizabeth's job as a

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Speaker 1: teacher has overstimulated her female brain. Hysterical, She's hysterical. She's

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Speaker 1: just fucking lost it, which is manifested in these physical

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Speaker 1: symptoms that she has now. Cut to my sister Laura, going,

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Speaker 1: it does drive you insane, Like that's all I can

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Speaker 1: think about. Where it's like, it's true, they were right,

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Speaker 1: but she's wrong. So oh that felt great. I've never really,

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Speaker 1: I've never really taken that to the public station.

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Speaker 2: She's never going to hear it.

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Speaker 1: You're wrong, Laura, Yeah, she doesn't. She's not a fan

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Speaker 1: of this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Laura, you guys are wrong.

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Speaker 1: You guys have always been wrong, right, Okay. So when

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth's father hears about this diagnosis, he requests that his

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Speaker 1: daughter be admitted to the local asylum, believing that the

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Speaker 1: root of her illness is that she's quote used too

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Speaker 1: much mental effort end quote in her line of work,

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Speaker 1: too too much mental effort. The hot springs really hard?

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Speaker 2: Should do this from a hot spring?

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Speaker 1: Ooh, we absolutely should. There's two ducks that just hang

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Speaker 1: out the whole time with you, and they're not scared

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Speaker 1: of you because they're filled with lithium.

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Speaker 2: I want ducks to be my friends. Now, that's my

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Speaker 2: new like yeah, bird obsession.

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Speaker 1: It's guygirl duck couple.

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Speaker 2: And they're like cool with everyone.

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Speaker 1: They don't care. They're just so relaxed and filled with

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Speaker 1: magnesium and all the minerals you need for your nervous

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Speaker 1: system to be Okay, I sold this to me completely. Okay, great,

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Speaker 1: we'll get your little gift certifically. So this, of course,

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Speaker 1: will be entirely against her will, obviously, and according to Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: she will later write a needless and unkind decision. She

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Speaker 1: will spend six weeks in this asylum, subjected to all

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Speaker 1: kinds of archaic treatments, including at one point blood letting.

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Speaker 1: Oh so it's not any kind of like hospital that

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Speaker 1: we would know today.

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Speaker 2: Right, they didn't have lobotomies yet, right.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I would love to Everything in

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Speaker 1: me wants to say no. Of course not, but I don't.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask if they had electric shock therapy,

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Speaker 2: but I don't even know if they had electricity.

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Speaker 1: I don't, so I shouldn't. I think it was like

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Speaker 1: the fresh new thing around town, electricity, But I don't

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Speaker 1: know either. What we know is that she does not

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Speaker 1: write about this first time she's hospitalized in any way,

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Speaker 1: but it's a nineteenth century mental asylum. Her physical symptoms

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Speaker 1: do start to improve, though, so she's finally discharged because,

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Speaker 1: of course, she is treated and basically her brain infection

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Speaker 1: goes away. But by the point that she gets out,

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Speaker 1: she firmly believes that her recovery is incidental and that

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Speaker 1: her treatment by these asylum doctors has actually only made

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Speaker 1: her worse mentally and emotionally. So a couple of years

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Speaker 1: pass after that, and then in eighteen thirty nine, when

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Speaker 1: she's twenty two, she gets set up with a friend

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Speaker 1: of her father's named Redie.

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Speaker 2: For this.

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, we have a picture of Elizabeth. Here's her og.

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Speaker 2: She does not look happy. That's a dour face.

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Speaker 1: All she wanted to do was be mean to children

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Speaker 1: and hit them with a stick while she taught them Latin.

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Speaker 2: She's like someone unzip my dress. It's so tight.

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Speaker 1: Please, I'm just upset about it. The idea that you

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Speaker 1: would get a physical infection or a virus, and suddenly

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Speaker 1: it's like, sorry, crazy, go to the insane asylum.

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Speaker 2: Your father or your husband says you're crazy.

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Speaker 1: So that's all that's needed. That's it.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So she gets set up with a friend of her

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Speaker 1: father's named Theophilus Packard. Can we take a look at

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Speaker 1: theophilis whoa, Yeah, this is when he's young. No, this

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Speaker 1: is after he sees the ghost.

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Speaker 2: He looks like Planet of the Apes where they like

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Speaker 2: put a suit on the apes.

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Speaker 1: And also I think it's the chin strap beard. This

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Speaker 1: is the final argument against the chin strap beard. I

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Speaker 1: know guys do it because they're like there was more left. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there used to be a lot. Now we're down to

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Speaker 1: this one. And the answer is firm. Norah, Please don't.

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Speaker 2: Trying to see if you'd be hot without it. But

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Speaker 2: I don't think well.

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Speaker 1: Also, he's taken the chin strap beard to a totally

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Speaker 1: upsetting level where it's under his chin but grown out,

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Speaker 1: so it looks like he's wearing a children's lion costume.

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Speaker 2: You think it smells like is that so they can

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Speaker 2: eat soup better?

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's so that he can worship the Lord better.

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Speaker 1: Because he is like her father, a Calvinist minister, and

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Speaker 1: fourteen years older than her. He's thirty seven. He is

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Speaker 1: not particularly romantic. I know that's going to shock you.

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Speaker 1: He's not all about that relationship. And in fact, later

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth will write that during their courtship he quote did

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Speaker 1: not seem to love me much. Yeah, who sounds about right.

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Speaker 1: She does go on to say that she marries him

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Speaker 1: in part to make her father happy, but they are

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Speaker 1: not a match, so author Kate Moore writes, quote, their

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Speaker 1: characters were as opposite as it was possible to get.

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Speaker 1: Where Elizabeth was vibrant, sociable and curious, Theophilus was gloomy and,

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Speaker 1: in his own words, dull. He said he was dull.

438
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, always trust the guy when I tell you what

439
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: they are.

440
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: He's like, Look, don't get fooled by my way back

441
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 1: chin strap beard.

442
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 2: I know I seem whimsical because of this fucking.

443
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,880
Speaker 1: This was just an accident. Yeah, what if he couldn't

444
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: grote beard hair on his chin? It started back there. Okay,

445
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 1: So for years Elizabeth endures a marriage that she will

446
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: later describe as quote love strangling the worst. She spends

447
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: that relationship constantly tempering your own thoughts and feelings to

448
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: keep peace in the household. She has a lot of children,

449
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: and she moves at the whim of her husband's ministry career.

450
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: He is always the focus of everyone's life, because how

451
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: could it not be.

452
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: He turns heads when he walks in the door.

453
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: He looks like he invented, like grape juice or something.

454
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 1: He looks like something from the old, like try to clean,

455
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: like a disgusting prune on it.

456
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: Ye, He's like, it works, it makes you buytolity, it

457
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 2: affects your clean And always talking about a spleen like

458
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: he won't shut up.

459
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: That a spleen. He's like, listen, I'm dull, but your

460
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: spleen will be clean.

461
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 2: Clean is the heart of every malady.

462
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 1: Of every chin beard. In eighteen forty eight, the first

463
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: women's rights convention ever held in the US, which was

464
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: the Seneca Falls Convention, takes place to New York and

465
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: activists like Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Lucretia Mott are like

466
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: the central players of this event. It's a watershed moment

467
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: in the broader movement for women's rights in the United States.

468
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: Elizabeth is now in her early thirties. She doesn't get

469
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: to go to this, but she hears about it, and

470
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 1: she hears the messages of women's empowerment that come out

471
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: of it. It resonates with her. She is a decade

472
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: into this miserable, dull, loveless marriage, and she begins to

473
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: test the social limits of her role, not only as

474
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: a mother, but as a preacher's wife. So she takes

475
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 1: on this is the ultimate like get out of jail free.

476
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: She starts doing missionary work, so she gets out of

477
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 1: the household. She's like, it's for the Lord by, It's

478
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: what we're all supposed to be doing. And she gets

479
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,959
Speaker 1: to be out in the real world. And once she

480
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: gets out into the real world, she starts examining her

481
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: own faith. And this is the time where spiritualism is very,

482
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: very popular in the United States, which is the belief

483
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: the living can communicate with the dead, and being raised

484
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: in the Calvinism end of Christianity, she's drawn to theologies

485
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: that are more empathetic and mystical and humanistic. She even

486
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: attends a seance where she claims that she spoke with

487
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: her late mother. Wow. So listen to episode three sixty

488
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: three landed in Marshmallows if you want to hear about

489
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: Harry Houdini's fight against spiritualism.

490
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 2: That was a good one because.

491
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 1: He didn't like it. So for most other women at

492
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 1: that time, that kind of dalliance into spiritualism was what

493
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: was happening. It probably would have been fine. But because

494
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's husband is a rigid nineteenth century Calvinist minister, her

495
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: spiritual journey puts a huge strain on their marriage. But

496
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to hide her beliefs anymore. Basically, she's

497
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: just trapped and she's like, whatever, I'm going to do

498
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: what I want. So in their ultra religious social circle,

499
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: which is probably just all the people at her husband's church,

500
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: they're just watching as the minister's wife dabbles in the

501
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: heretical like the saance.

502
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: It can't, it can't, it's not allowed.

503
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: And so at home, this I guess hobby is challenging

504
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: Theophilis's values on everything from how to raise their six

505
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: children to major issues of the day like slavery. Elizabeth

506
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: identifies as an abolitionist, although a very flawed white eighteen

507
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: hundreds one got it very self serving, but overall, especially

508
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: like trying to put it on the table with her husband,

509
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: who is ten times worse in every direction than her,

510
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: he doesn't like it. She is an avid supporter of

511
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 1: John Brown, the man who led the anti slavery raid

512
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: at Harper's Ferry in eighteen fifty nine and was executed

513
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: for it. She's a believer in this movement and her

514
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: husband is mortified. He, of course, unsurprisingly finds his wife's

515
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: politics increasingly embarrassing. She becomes so disillusioned that she actually

516
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: leaves her husband's church because she's like, how could you

517
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: say you're of God and be doing this to people?

518
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: I mean, that's such a fuck you. Yeah, my wife

519
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 2: leaving preacher's wife.

520
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: You saw the Whitney used To movie, you know what

521
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: it's like. So leaving the churches, she is just piling

522
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: up the humiliations for him, their marriages and shambles. But

523
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: of course, divorces off the table. He would never do

524
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: it morally, and she is deathly afraid that she'll lose

525
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: custody of her children. Then her husband of twenty one

526
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: years does the unthinkable dies. No, No, it's close though,

527
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: but not bad for him. It's eighteen sixty They're living

528
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: in Jacksonville, Illinois, and one night, in the middle of

529
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: the night, Elizabeth is taken from her home by two

530
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: strange men and brought to the Illinois State Asylum and Hospital.

531
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: Wow, he's just like, here's the problem. Let me get

532
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: rid of it.

533
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're so embarrassing by contradicting me that you must

534
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,239
Speaker 1: be insane, and so you have to be committed. And

535
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: it's right there in Jacksonville. Elizabeth has no idea what's

536
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: going on. She remembers being in the reception room hours later,

537
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: begging to be released, and then she sees her husband

538
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: through a window and realizes, like he's there to confirm

539
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: this is happening and make sure it happens. Chilling. She

540
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: will later write in her journal that he looked at

541
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 1: her with quote one last look of satisfied delight. Never

542
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: had I seen his face more radiant with joy. Damn,

543
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: He's like, she's gone, Can you imagine that face? Can

544
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 1: we see the face again? Never had I seen the

545
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: face really so radiant with joy.

546
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 2: That's why it doesn't look like a joyful person.

547
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: It's not.

548
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: He looks a little stunned.

549
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: It would actually probably be very upsetting to see him.

550
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: That guy radiant, just seeing that face through a window

551
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: and I think, like that's a ghost or whatever.

552
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: But to see him happy, he's like heat, he's finally gone.

553
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: I can get back to my books and ledges and

554
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: God and of course God. So Theophilis commits his forty

555
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: four year old wife to an asylum, telling the doctors

556
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: there that she is quote slightly insane. His proof is

557
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: we all, I mean, we'd all be in there, this

558
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: whole building of people would be in there, thank God together.

559
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: His proof is her leaving his Calvinist church and disavowing

560
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: his worldview, and Illinois state law at the time says

561
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: no problem passed her. All husbands have the right to

562
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: institutionalize their wives without any medical proof that they are

563
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: mentally ill in any way. Yeah, and it was just

564
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: so recently, I know. So as we know, Elizabeth has

565
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: been through this before. It's what her father did to

566
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: her when she's a teenager, and of course that works

567
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: against her and reaffirms her diagnosis. The well respected forty

568
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: three year old superintendent of this hospital is a man

569
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: named doctor Andrew MacFarlane, and he does seem to agree

570
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: with Theophilis's assessment that Elizabeth's actions over the last few

571
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: years suggest that she is quote slightly insane.

572
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: Slightly insane is so cute, It's like, can you that

573
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: would be great?

574
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: Now? I mean, she's not raving in the streets, we understand,

575
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: but she certainly isn't down at church nodding along with

576
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: her husband's beard. Elizabeth will write that she has been

577
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: quote placed there by her husband for thinking end quote.

578
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: But her insistence that she's saying, of course only since

579
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: seems to affirm to doctor McFarland that she's not the

580
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: old trick screaming I'm insane Yeah never works. Yeah, I'm saying,

581
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: I'm saying and then you say it five hundred more times.

582
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: So she's committed with no clear discharge date, and so

583
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: she begins to write, and from her very thorough diaries,

584
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: she describes her time in there, yearning not only for

585
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: her freedom but for her children. She is in agony.

586
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: Her friends on the outside are advocating for her release,

587
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: but they are powerless, of course, because of the laws

588
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: of the time, so they can argue all they want.

589
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: Elizabeth is certainly not alone in her experience, though she

590
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: documents the leagues of other women that she meets in

591
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: the asylum and who've also been unfairly institutionalized by the

592
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: men in their lives. She also records details on patients

593
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: who are genuinely unwell and how the staff are clearly

594
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: unequipped to treat them and are often abusive. It is

595
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: a miserable place. It's overcrowded, resources are stretched thin, there's

596
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: high staff turnover. Some words are filthy. There are puddles

597
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: of human waste left on the unclean floor. Every room

598
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: seems to have been stripped of the smallest possible comfort.

599
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: Patients only get to sit on hardwood benches, and the

600
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: bedding is as scratching, itchy and terrible as it could

601
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: possibly be. And so Elizabeth writes all this down. She

602
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: takes it all down, and she writes about all of

603
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: it in detail. But the darkest testimony involves the extreme

604
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: abuse that she experiences and that she witnesses other patients

605
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: being subjected to at the hands of asylum employees. So

606
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: you've got to figure probably a lot of these employees

607
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: were totally unqualified on trains, They're just thrown in there,

608
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: like make sure they're quiet, or makes sure they eat

609
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: or go to bed. From there, the exploitation of that power.

610
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: Women are injured as they're violently stuffed into strait jackets.

611
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: They're beaten for being unruly, they're choked. Sometimes Elizabeth tries

612
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: to intervene, but she writes that once, while trying to

613
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: help a patient that's being man handled by a much

614
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 1: larger attendant, he turns and grabs Elizabeth and drags her

615
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: through the hallways back to her room by her arm

616
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: and locks her in so she can't interfere anymore. She

617
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: writes about a patient being starved as punishment, and when

618
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: she sneaks that woman some food and aid finds out

619
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: and pulls a knife on her and holds it over

620
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: her head. Holy shit, so it's just it's Mayhem in there.

621
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: She also writes about an assistant choking a young patient

622
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: and one of his fingernails is so sharp it slashes

623
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: the young patient's throat. When the attendant backs off, Elizabeth

624
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: dresses the patient's wound with a piece of her own clothing,

625
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: and she keeps that bandage, and she writes that the

626
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: scrap is quote red with the blood of this innocent girl,

627
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: as proof of this kind of abuse in the Jacksonville

628
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: Insane Asylum. Oh my god, she terrifying. Yeah, and she's

629
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: just kind of like, I'm just going to put it down.

630
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: She writes extensively about the arrival of bath tubs too.

631
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: Oh no, And we talked about this a little bit

632
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: with Nelly Blyig.

633
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: So.

634
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: At first, they're introduced as a more hygienic and dignifying

635
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: alternative to the sponge baths that were usually given to patients,

636
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: but Elizabeth describes them as quickly becoming instruments of torture,

637
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: used to punish girls and women for things as small

638
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: as quote silly behavior and laughing from her bed. Elizabeth

639
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: writes that she can hear the patients begging for mercy

640
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: as attendants throw them into the tubs, sometimes with quote

641
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: their hands and feet tied and if they resisted, a

642
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: straight jacket was placed upon them end quote like just

643
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: sadistic people. This is not therapy in any way, And

644
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: this is no and fa sadism. It's sadism because they're

645
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: held underwater repeatedly for long stretches of time, and sometimes

646
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: the water's freezing or it's scalding. Haunts and the only

647
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: way that Elizabeth knows that the patient survives this basically

648
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: torture slash treatment is when they come back up out

649
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: of the water screaming. Fuck. So she is in this

650
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: situation and in this hospital for months, and of course

651
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: it's deteriorating both her mental and her physical health because

652
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: it's a living hell. As an act of resistance, she

653
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: does her best to keep her mind sharp, so she

654
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: commits to a routine of regular exercise and prayer. This

655
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: is you and me in jumping rope. This is how

656
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: we're going to.

657
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: Do it, keeping sane in this fucked up world.

658
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: As we jump rope or on a mini trampoline. We're

659
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: going to be.

660
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: Like, Lord, Lord, Lord, sharpen our brain.

661
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: Let's sharpen this shit up and get it together. She

662
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: writes in her journal, quote I am becoming so extremely

663
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: sensitive to wrong and abuse that I cannot or shall

664
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: not witness it without interference, even if you put me

665
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: into fetters for it. End quote. Wow. She is trapped

666
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: in this asylum for three years total, Oh my god,

667
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: until she's finally released in eighteen sixty three due to

668
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: sustaining pressure from her older children, who are now are

669
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: either in their late teens or early twenties. So they

670
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: just basically have been calling and pressuring doctor McFarlane and

671
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: the other asylum officials like armaphones. No, sorry, they've been calling.

672
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: They've been they have been putting pressure. Sorry doctor no, no, no,

673
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: that's the good catch. They have been putting pressure on

674
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: doctor McFarlane and on the other asylum officials basically saying,

675
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: our mother is not crazy and you know it, and

676
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 1: get her out of there. But also the asylum officials

677
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: and the workers are getting sick of dealing with Elizabeth

678
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: and her interference because she really is fighting back. Essentially,

679
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: they officially declare her incurably insane, but then release her

680
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: so it's not a celebration because she is still married

681
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: to Theophilis, and so when she gets home, according to

682
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: her journals, he locks her in the nursery of their

683
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: homes the whole time. Are you thinking about the whole

684
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: little just now, just now, full credit, then thank you,

685
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: full credit. And apparently nurseries were way smaller in houses

686
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 1: back there.

687
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: They were like in the fucking attic, like the attic room.

688
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: With the it's carry potter ship. He's he's locking her

689
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: in the smallest place he possibly can't. She manages to

690
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: sneak a letter out of the nursery window to a friend,

691
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: outlining exactly how she's been confined against her will.

692
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: So she's just locked in there, yeah, and she had okay.

693
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like whatever if it's I mean, imagine, it's

694
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: just like, you want to give me some soup? Sounds good?

695
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 1: Could we please do that? Like whatever? This guy fucking beardo,

696
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: I don't want to see it. Don't bring it back

697
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: outlining exactly how she's been confined against her will under

698
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: the false pretense that she's insane. That friend and delivers

699
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: the letter to a local judge, and finally, for some

700
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: reason and somehow it works. For the first time, the

701
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: Awfulis's behavior is seen as legally problematic. While a husband

702
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,959
Speaker 1: can easily have his wife committed to an asylum, it's

703
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: not as defensible to lock that same wife up in

704
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: a little room in your house.

705
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 2: There are boundaries, people, we're here, let's just run around.

706
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: There's a rocking chair on the front porch. It's so

707
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: nicely you keep all that abuse to the asylum, okay.

708
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: So in January of eighteen sixty four, Elizabeth goes to

709
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: trial to establish her mental state once and for all.

710
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: She's now forty eight years old.

711
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: She's like, can I go to sleep?

712
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: She is like, but probably in the perfect like menopausal

713
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: state to be like, let's do this thing.

714
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: She's also like an old late I mean.

715
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: No, no, say it. I mean, because forty eight in

716
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: today's money, she's one hundred and seventeen. Various physicians and

717
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: family members, friends and acquaintance go on record in the

718
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: courtroom to state that she is a sane human being,

719
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: and after five days of testimony but only seven minutes

720
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: of deliberating, the jury deems Elizabeth Packard to be sane.

721
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: And you know it is an all male jury. I

722
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: mean it would have to be. I believe Neckbeard's being like,

723
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: I don't want to give this woman her freedom, but

724
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 1: I've asked With that, Theophilis immediately skips down and takes

725
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: their three youngest children with him. Elizabeth is left with

726
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: nothing but the clothes on her back. Luckily, she does

727
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: have her older children and her friends to lean on,

728
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: but of course she is forever changed by the years

729
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: of mistreatment. So she channels her anger into advocacy work,

730
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: and she starts by advocating for herself. She takes her

731
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: husband to court in both Illinois and Massachusetts, where he's

732
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: currently living, and she sues him for damages. Damn, I

733
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: mean in the mid eighteen hundreds in the is electricity real?

734
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: Yet it's that long ago. A few years after that,

735
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: in her early fifties, she finally wins custody of her

736
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: youngest children, and then she sets out on a campaign

737
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: for the rights of both married women and patients in

738
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: psychiatric institutions. Wow. Her most powerful tool is her writing.

739
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: Her diaries capture the horrors of the asylum so vividly

740
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: that when she publishes several books based on them, the

741
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: public laps it up. She becomes increasingly famous. She travels

742
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: all through the United States sharing her story, and she

743
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: eventually secures real changes in the law. She's said to

744
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: have inspired the passage of over thirty different laws in

745
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: various states, ones that better protect women's personal assets when

746
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: they get married, and an Illinois law that guarantees a

747
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: trial for anyone unwillingly being committed, which could have prevented

748
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's own institutionalization if it had existed years earlier. So

749
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: now it's eighteen sixty seven, and Elizabeth's efforts also result

750
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: in the state investigation of doctor Andrew McFarland and the

751
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: Illinois State Asylum in Hospital, which stretches on for seven months.

752
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: In the end, investigators recommend he be removed from his post,

753
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: but for unknown reasons, this doesn't happen, and he holds

754
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 1: the job for three more years, at which point he

755
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: willingly leaves to open his own private asylum. In eighteen

756
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: ninety seven, when she is eighty years old, Elizabeth Parsons

757
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: ware Packard dies suddenly of a strangulated hernia. She is

758
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: buried in Chicago. After decades spent writing books and giving

759
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: in passion lectures on the horrors of the asylum and

760
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: the women who were sent there and who suffered there.

761
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: Her legacy as a courageous woman who stood up and

762
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: spoke out has endured. As for doctor McFarland, despite the

763
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: reputational damage caused by Elizabeth's advocacy work, not to mention

764
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: the investigation into the asylum under his leadership. When a

765
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: new state run psychiatric center opens in Springfield, Illinois in

766
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, it's named in his honor, cool the

767
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: mcfarlande Mental Health Center. But when author Kate Moore's book

768
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: The Woman They Could Not Silence is published in twenty

769
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: twenty one. It brings renewed attention to Elizabeth Parson Where's story,

770
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: and in twenty twenty three, Illinois Governor J. B. Pritzker

771
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: announces that center will be renamed the Elizabeth Parsons were

772
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: Packard Mental Health Center.

773
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: That is amazing.

774
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it just happened. And it's because of author

775
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: Kate Moore and her work. And of course Elizabeth Parsons

776
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: were Packard's work where she was just blindly in the dark,

777
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: going this is wrong. I need to change this.

778
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: Somebody, dude such a strong like they could have named

779
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: it something generic to just taking his name off of it.

780
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: But instead of naming it after this evil doctor, they

781
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: named it after a woman who fought him. Yeah, fought

782
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 2: his evil. That's amazing.

783
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: And also it's like, was he evil? I feel like

784
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: the naming thing is like their way of saying, but

785
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: he did such great work, which always happens, but he

786
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: didn't according to the people he was doing the work on.

787
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: And that's the key is that anybody can claim that,

788
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: or their constituents can claim it, or their boys down

789
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: at the Elks Lodge. But how about the people that

790
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: were there and sitting in their own fucking piles of

791
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: feces being tortured. Okay, So of this decision, author Kate

792
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: Moore has said, quote, I think she would be personally

793
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: grateful that she and her work have been recognized when

794
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: for so much of her life she was denigrated and

795
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: dumbed down. But I also think she would say the

796
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: work is not done. End quote. And that's the story

797
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: of mental health advocate Elizabeth Parsons wear packard.

798
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't as slightly what is it slightly insane?

799
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: Slightly insane?

800
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: I didn't know that about her at all.

801
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: Amazing And also it's a mental health awareness month, that's right,

802
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: So that's what the whole vibe is about. Yes, good job,

803
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: thank you. And here's Kate moore book. She's an amazing author.

804
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the.

805
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: One they could not silence. Very cool, so cool, good job,

806
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: that was great, thank you. That was harrowing the idea

807
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: that there are this many women who had to go

808
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: either undercover or just were committed to insane asylums and

809
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: then had to do the work on the other end

810
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 1: once they were released totally and I mean you can't

811
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: just send me here because you don't like that I'm talking.

812
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: I mean it says something about like, you know, because

813
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: she knew how to write. All the women who were

814
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 2: not given an education, who couldn't write about their experiences

815
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: or send a note through a window to their friend

816
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: to tell them what was going on with them, that's.

817
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: Right, you know, they could only raise their voices, which

818
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 1: then immediately qualified them as being slightly.

819
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: Insane, which is why they didn't want to educate women.

820
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 1: Then we would fucking that's why. That's why our school

821
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: systems are in the state that they are, because if

822
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: nobody knows anything, then weren't going to be good with it. Okay,

823
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: great job, thank you. I mean if you insist, I guess.

824
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: I mean I don't have to.

825
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 1: I mean I could walk out right now.

826
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: How do they get so disgusting? And how do you

827
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: keep them clean?

828
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: You never can. You're always wiping your glasses on your shirt,

829
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: the thing they tell you not to do. Oh really,

830
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: m hm, unless you're the kind of person that can

831
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: keep a little silky thing. Now, I can't do it.

832
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: Nobody can do that.

833
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: That's a lie, is it started? Line?

834
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: Okay? Conspiracy? I couldn't think of the word conspiracy.

835
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: Oh my god, my brain. The brands are going to

836
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: cross the board, myself, the people I'm observing, this is

837
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: what's happening to all of us. Okay, but let's go back, okay.

838
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: To February of twenty twenty. Remember that the world is

839
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: starting to look with increasing concern at coronavirus outbreaks in

840
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: China and Italy. But today we are in Argentina. Specifically,

841
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: we are in the Andes Mountains on South America's highest peak,

842
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: the Aconcagua.

843
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: Okay, I've heard of it. No? Is it a by

844
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: match you peachu?

845
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: No?

846
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: Okay?

847
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 2: The fact that this is I don't know.

848
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: I don't know.

849
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: Why am I saying yes? Right? The fact that this

850
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: is the highest mountain in South America makes it one

851
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: of the seven Summits, which are the highest peaks on

852
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: each continent. So this makes it part of a popular

853
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: climbing challenge for mountaineers who want to conquer.

854
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: All of them.

855
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: Could you imagine being like that?

856
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: Do they not know about TV or naps? It's I mean,

857
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: I get it, it's nice to be outside and stuff.

858
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 1: I don't know how that.

859
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: Dry it would be cool for something aside podcasting.

860
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: I feel I feel like those are people who have

861
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: learned something in this world about not the immediate gratification

862
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: of like stuff like this. I just never learned that. Yeah. Same,

863
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: It's just mean I can't hike all the time if

864
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: no one's giving me attention, right or alcohol?

865
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So Everest is the highest of these seven summits.

866
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 2: It's also the most expensive and logistically worrisome, which is

867
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: because of its popularity, altitude, and weather concerns. But it's

868
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 2: debatable as to whether it's the hardest to actually climb.

869
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: And so also, I did the deaths on Everest in

870
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 2: episode one seventy four, and you covered Junko taba e

871
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: in episode five twenty six. Should anyone want to feel cold.

872
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,439
Speaker 1: More learn about a legendary lady mountaineer, right, or your thing?

873
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: Or just a bunch of terrible deaths skeletons?

874
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay. So it's the middle of summer in

875
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: the southern part of the Hemisphere twenty twenty, so February.

876
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 2: It's the peak of the Andes climbing season, and two

877
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: porters are on the mountain not too far from the

878
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: summit on its hardest climbing route. It's called the Polish

879
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: Glacier laying down ropes for a climbing expedition, and Akankagua

880
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: has multipots to the summit. Some don't require much technical

881
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: equipment or skill at all. You can just kind of

882
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: have a nice walk up to them. But you do

883
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: have to be in really good shape to get to

884
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: the top, which is twenty two thousand feet, because the

885
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 2: risk of getting severe altitude sickness is very high, and

886
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 2: so some climbers use oxygen. Some are purists and don't.

887
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: But this route that we're taking, the Polish Glacier route,

888
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 2: is where the porters are, you know, getting everything ready

889
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: for the mountaineers. And this part is extremely difficult. It

890
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: requires significant mountaineering experience. And it's named the Polish Glacier

891
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: because the first group to open up the route in

892
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties had been from Poland.

893
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: Okay, not that interesting.

894
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, It used to be that groups of mountaineers set

895
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 2: up their own camps, lay their own minds. But now

896
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: there's a whole industry around mountaineering and these porters are

897
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: doing just that.

898
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: Can you imagine that's your job, though, it'd be pretty

899
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: red like some people are planning, like this is my

900
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: lifetime trip to climb this mountain, and other people are like, ugh,

901
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: gotta go to work and climb this mountain again. They

902
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 1: do it constantly.

903
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: These idiots just keep coming.

904
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: Okay.

905
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 2: Another thing that's changed is that the Polish Glacier is

906
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 2: receding because of the global climate change.

907
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: Fake.

908
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. What's the word conspiracy?

909
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: Conspiracy? No, it's not.

910
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 2: This means that every so often, and I remember seeing this,

911
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: like in my news feed, the glacier spits out an

912
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 2: item that had once been encased on ice.

913
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: My favorite.

914
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: On this particular day, the porters stumble upon a nicomat camera.

915
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: Oh it's an old school camera and it's got an

916
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 2: old school label maker name on it. So a name

917
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: and address with an old school label maker. Wow, right, Yes,

918
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 2: the name says Janet Johnson and there's her address as well.

919
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: The porters can see that twenty four photos have been

920
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: taken with this old camera.

921
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: They shrug it off.

922
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: They take it down to the mountain to their campsite

923
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 2: when they're done for the day, and they show it

924
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: to a guide named Ulissees corve Lan. And when Uluss

925
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: sees the name Janet Johnson. Then he goes white and

926
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: he tells the porters that Janet Johnson, along with another

927
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: climber named John Cooper, died on the mountain almost fifty

928
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: years earlier under very mysterious circumstances. Her camera had just

929
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 2: been uncovered.

930
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: The ice receding is unveiling evidence. That's right.

931
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: This is the story of the Aconcagua Mountain mystery. The

932
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: main source for this is a twenty twenty three New

933
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: York Times article.

934
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: It's very good, robust.

935
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's not urty.

936
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:34,479
Speaker 1: It's good.

937
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: It's called Ghosts on the Glacier by John Branch with

938
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 2: videos by Emily Ryan.

939
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: It's a really great read.

940
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: And then I also went to a website by this

941
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: writer slash mountaineer named Mark Horrell h.

942
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: O R R E L. Mark.

943
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 2: It's one of the greats. The rest of the sources

944
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: can be found in our show notes.

945
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:53,959
Speaker 1: Great.

946
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 2: So it's nineteen seventy two and a fifty two year

947
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: old Portland based lawyer named Carmine Defoe.

948
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good name.

949
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 3: Old done starts putting together a group that will tackle

950
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,479
Speaker 3: Aconcagua together, and they want to do the Polish Glacier route,

951
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 3: the hardest one.

952
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 2: If they succeed, they will be the fifth ever group

953
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 2: to do.

954
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: So. Hey, hey, let's climb. CARMEI is a member of

955
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: a climbing.

956
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 2: Club which Karmie. Is that his nickname Carmi? Yeah? Did

957
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: I say Carmine? Yeah, well I've meant Karme. It's really Carmine.

958
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: That's it could be, And it's just it's such a

959
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: cutie nickname for like Carmar Carmie.

960
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 2: So he's been a member of a climbing club that's

961
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 2: a thing called Mazumas.

962
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: It's been around.

963
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,439
Speaker 2: Since the eighteen nineties. It's still around today, so don't

964
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: talk shit, you can join it. Most of the climbers

965
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: he recruits are also members of Mazumas. The group includes

966
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 2: a psychiatrist named Jim Petrowski, a doctor named Bill Eubank,

967
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 2: a dairy farmer named Arnold McMillan. Wow, just like people

968
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: who were in the climbing mountains. It's like pigs, all kinds.

969
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: Joe girl named Maureen.

970
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 2: No, a police officer named Bill Zeller, and the youngest,

971
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 2: a twenty five year old Brigham Young University student named

972
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: John Shelton who was hot and He also spoke the

973
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: best Spanish in his group because of his mission trip. Okay, hm,

974
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 2: the hot was me. What's it called editorial life?

975
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: Thank you? Welcome?

976
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 2: And NASA engineer named John Cooper, who had worked on

977
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: several recent Apollo missions.

978
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: I mean every type of person, that's right, except for women.

979
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 2: Well, oh, we're gonna get to her.

980
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: Okay.

981
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: Carmie hires a local guide named Miguel Alfonso, and then

982
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: close to when the group is going to leave, he

983
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 2: announces one new member of the party, a school librarian

984
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 2: with a PhD in education from Denver named Janet Johnson.

985
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: Okay, right.

986
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: While most people in the group are in the same

987
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 2: general orbit, although none of them have ever climbed together,

988
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 2: Janet has never met anyone else in the group. But

989
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 2: Carmie's Denver friends say she's a highly experienced climber, so

990
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: she can come along letter in.

991
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, lady climber.

992
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 2: What's she doing?

993
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:06,959
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna wait around all day?

994
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 2: What's she doing on the mountaintop?

995
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: Stop it? This is serious. No, it's not okay.

996
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 2: Because the climbing party includes a NASA engineer and a

997
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 2: woman and a woman, there's considerable public interest in the expedition,

998
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: and it attracts some media attention because like it's kind

999
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,720
Speaker 2: of a new exciting thing, this mountain climbing.

1000
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1001
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 2: Women in the sixties, you know, everest the whole, like

1002
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 2: climbing things.

1003
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 1: Like the trend. It's really becoming entrent.

1004
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 2: And everyone loves NASA people so and women of course

1005
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: they love women, so love women. They get us a

1006
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 2: lot of media attention, especially directed at John Nasa, John

1007
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: and Janet so John Nasa, John, I'm gonna call him.

1008
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 2: That is thirty five at the time of the expedition.

1009
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,479
Speaker 2: He had grown up in Kansas and had always loved

1010
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 2: the outdoors. After graduating from Oklahoma University, he becomes a

1011
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 2: pilot for the Coastguard.

1012
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: He's an avid climber.

1013
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 2: He's just like all the things that you want if

1014
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 2: you want an outdoorsy type. Yeah, you know, like when

1015
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: you are swiping whichever way and you're like, do I

1016
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 2: want to hike on my first date or no, he's

1017
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: the hike on the first daid guy.

1018
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: He's the hike five miles on our first day. That's right.

1019
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 2: He summitted Kilimanjaro, Mount Kenya and po Poka Tepey Toll.

1020
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: Yes, where my vacation home is.

1021
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: That's right, And they all have elevations between seventeen thousand

1022
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: and nineteen thousand feet. And at NASA, John had worked

1023
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: on the Apollo eleven mission to the Moon and every

1024
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 2: mission since up until the last one, which was Apollo seventeen.

1025
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: That's right. You knew that.

1026
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: Shortly before his expedition to Uconcagua. While at NASA he

1027
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 2: had met a secretary named Sandy Myers and they had

1028
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 2: gotten married in nineteen sixty eight and they had a

1029
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 2: son named Randy in nineteen sixty nine. And we're back

1030
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 2: and it's a fan offal of NASA, John Cooper CIVU play.

1031
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, regolutely right. Absolutely, you would love to have

1032
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: a beer with that guy. Totally fun cheers.

1033
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: Although all of John's backstory becomes known to public around

1034
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 2: the time with the climb, most of what people know

1035
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: about Janet at the time she's a lady. She's a lady, yes,

1036
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: which is unusual for a climber at this time. Janet's

1037
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: thirty six at the time of the expedition and had

1038
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: been born in Minneapolis and adopted by Victor and May Johnson.

1039
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 2: That Johnson's are very religious and very strict, and Janet

1040
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: is an obedient daughter. She's a voracious reader, extremely studious,

1041
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: loves to learn. When she's ten, she says to her

1042
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: parents she wants a sister, and so they adopt a

1043
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 2: five year old named Judy. I know, Judy, says her sister,

1044
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: quote liked to study. That was her favorite thing to do.

1045
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 2: Straight a's. She would settle for nothing less same when

1046
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: Janet goes away to college.

1047
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: This sucks.

1048
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: When Janet goes a way to college and this is

1049
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 2: so little sister. Oh no, Judy finds a box of

1050
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:53,240
Speaker 2: love notes between her sister and another woman. This Janet

1051
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: and love notes between Janet and another woman. Judy found

1052
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 2: those in her room. Oh okay, she went away to college.

1053
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: It's unclear exactly how j and its parents find out,

1054
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 2: although little sister it's clear.

1055
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean you allegedly, but you said that,

1056
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,240
Speaker 1: you go this sucks and then you're like she found

1057
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: it where I'm like.

1058
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: Why that sucks?

1059
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,919
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sorry, Alviany, that doesn't suck.

1060
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: Judy fucking became a rat. Yes, you know, got it.

1061
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 2: I'm sure she regretted it the rest of her life.

1062
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 2: They find out about it. Her parents are really strict

1063
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: religious parents, and they send Janet to a hospital to

1064
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 2: cure her.

1065
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's seme today.

1066
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: This of course does not work, and Janet moves to

1067
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: Denver as soon as she can to put distance between

1068
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 2: herself and her parents.

1069
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,919
Speaker 1: That's the story my mom used to tell as being

1070
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: a nurse and a psychatric hospital and like the you know,

1071
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 1: the late sixties seventies where people are just taking their

1072
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: the kids that smoke pot, the kids that rebel, the

1073
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: kids that were different in some way, and just like, well,

1074
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: you have to go to a psyche.

1075
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 2: To the scariest place on earth. So it's in Denver.

1076
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 2: She becomes her own woman, and she gets her masters

1077
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 2: and then a PhD in education and starts working as

1078
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 2: a school librarian. And then really just it's the thing

1079
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: to do between climbing mountains whenever she can. She's just

1080
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: obsessed with it. She's among the first twenty women to

1081
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 2: climb all of Colorado's fourteen ers they're called the summits

1082
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 2: that are higher than fourteen thousand feet, as well as

1083
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 2: notable mountains all around the world.

1084
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.

1085
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 2: In addition to local interest in John and Janet, the

1086
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 2: group also attracts attention because of their plan to climb

1087
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 2: the notoriously difficult Polish Glacier again. They would be the

1088
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,760
Speaker 2: fifth team to do it if they accomplished it. Spoiler,

1089
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 2: they don't. A journalist from the local paper in Mendoza,

1090
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: Argentina named Raphael Moran goes to interview the climbing team

1091
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 2: when they arrive in Argentina. So he goes to the hotel.

1092
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 2: He's like, Mistick gets just you know, a little fluck

1093
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 2: piece on everyone, but right away he gets some bad vibes.

1094
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 2: When he interviews everyone together, he feels that the group

1095
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: is not cohesive. They don't seem to know each other

1096
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 2: well enough for what they're about to embark on, because

1097
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,720
Speaker 2: you have to trust each other, especially if you're roped together,

1098
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 2: and believe that the other person knows what they're doing

1099
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 2: and has your best interest and helps out. They also

1100
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: don't seem to quite understand just how difficult the Polish

1101
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 2: Glacier route is. They're kind of being jovial about it.

1102
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 2: He tells the photographer to make sure he gets single

1103
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 2: shots of everyone in the party because he's convinced they

1104
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 2: won't all make it back down the mountain and he'll

1105
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: want a photo for the newspaper when that happens. WHOA, yeah, oh,

1106
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 2: let's see a photo of Janet. So that's Janet got it.

1107
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 2: There's no sunscreen back then, but sunscreen didn't exist.

1108
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: No sunscreen. Everyone's wearing the same flannel.

1109
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: That's right, no sunscreen. Skin cancer still exists.

1110
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 1: Those cool sunglasses for sure, though, Oh yeah for sure.

1111
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 2: So wow, that's yeah, she's got it all going. The

1112
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 2: group stays together at a hotel in Mendos, Argentina, before

1113
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: setting off. John Cooper, the NASA engineer, keeps a diary,

1114
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: and from it it seems like he and the other

1115
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 2: men in the group don't quite understand like what category

1116
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: to put Janet in. She just is kind of an

1117
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 2: enigma to them.

1118
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 1: He says.

1119
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 2: She doesn't seem feminine at all. He writes, quote, Janet

1120
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: sure is weird. She went swimming in her bra, blouse

1121
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: and panties today and the.

1122
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: Poll was full of people.

1123
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 2: End quote. So it's just like whamon climbing mountains.

1124
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: Also, she just jumped into the pool because she didn't

1125
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: have a suit.

1126
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 2: She didn't give a fuck, like she was definitely like

1127
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: a I don't give a fuck, lady, yeah, Yeah, I'm

1128
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 2: going to live life how I want.

1129
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: To live with And so these guys had kind of

1130
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: never been around anybody like that before exactly.

1131
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: So the team sets out for base camp, a twenty

1132
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 2: five mile extremely rigorous hike on its own. Like you

1133
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 2: get to the first place and you're like, we have

1134
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 2: to go more.

1135
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: Who's making the food?

1136
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: Right? So base camp is at thirteen thousand, five hundred feet,

1137
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 2: which is around one thousand feet less than any of

1138
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 2: the highest peaks in the Rocky Mountains. Altitude sickness begins

1139
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 2: to be a factor at around eight thousand feet and

1140
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: they're at thirteen five hundred and by the time they

1141
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: reached the base camp U Banks, the group's doctor is

1142
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: already not feeling well oh and has.

1143
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:53,439
Speaker 1: To stay there.

1144
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: So I looked up what altitude sickness feels like, because

1145
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 2: I don't fucking know, and I'll tell you and you'll

1146
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 2: understand this as well as I do. So altitude sickness

1147
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,959
Speaker 2: generally feels like a severe hangover. Ooh, those fucking hangovers

1148
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: where you're lying there just wishing for consciousness.

1149
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can get out of your own body just

1150
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: for two hours.

1151
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: Like sweaty and suppressed, and oh it'spicious, so bad. It's

1152
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 2: characterized by a throbbing headache, nausea, dizziness, fatigue, and shortness

1153
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 2: of breath.

1154
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: So it sucks.

1155
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 2: You're not hiking anymore when you get it. At base camp,

1156
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 2: the group connects with a local twenty five year old

1157
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 2: climber named Roberto Bustos, whom they have hired to look

1158
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: after their base camp setup. So I think he might

1159
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 2: be the cook or they just are eating like dry

1160
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 2: weird Yeah, what is it?

1161
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: Handfuls of walnuts? It would drive me insane. Yeah.

1162
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 2: Roberto also specifically remembers that the vibe seemed off to

1163
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 2: him as well. They didn't seem like a team, but

1164
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: rather a group of individuals. He says, quote, there was

1165
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: no group attitude. I was thinking, Oh, I am on

1166
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 2: my own. Everyone has to take care of himself. In

1167
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 2: my opinion, they weren't ready for such a strange and

1168
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 2: big mountain as a Concagua.

1169
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a terrible way to start, right, Yeah, And.

1170
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people underestimate this mountain, and

1171
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 2: the people who are from there know that.

1172
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: Do you think the infighting would be worse if it's

1173
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: strangers who aren't gelling, or if it's people who know

1174
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: each other really well, because that also has a thing

1175
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: of like you could start as a great group, but

1176
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: something happens and then yeah, either way, then it's more

1177
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: personal totally. But you think that that you make sure

1178
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: you like each other though, if you're going to do it,

1179
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: you're right. Trust is the two people.

1180
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: Might not like each other when everyone else, Yeah, who knows?

1181
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 2: Email us? Are you a mountaineer? Let us know what's

1182
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 2: it called altitude sickness?

1183
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: It's ultimate thread on the trail. Let us know what

1184
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: it's like to be a mountaineer. Do you hate Everyonekay?

1185
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: The whole time you're thinking of string cheese, right, because

1186
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: that's all I can think of? Or like you have

1187
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: to like line your pockets with gummy bears, some.

1188
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 2: Crackers that are sandwich with peanut butter. They're so fucking good.

1189
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: Think up pulling that out of your socks and no

1190
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 1: one else can see.

1191
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 2: These days, it's expensive to be a mountaineer, and that's

1192
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 2: partly because nowadays porters set up camps, they lay lines

1193
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 2: so that groups can mostly travel directly from base camp

1194
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 2: to base camp up the mountain. But in the seventies

1195
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 2: that wasn't really how it went. This group would be

1196
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 2: doing all of that work themselves. So their route up

1197
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 2: the mountain will include three separate camps. So they have

1198
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 2: to climb up to Camp one, haul all the gear

1199
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 2: up there and set up camp, then go back to

1200
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 2: base camp, then go back to Camp one with the

1201
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 2: rest of the gear camp there, and then do the

1202
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,959
Speaker 2: same thing two more times for base camp two and three.

1203
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,439
Speaker 2: So bring everything up, stay, bring everything up.

1204
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: So it's exer size and frustration. Yeah, while you're mountaineering. Yeah, yeah,

1205
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 1: I saw that tree already. You're like, your attitude just

1206
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: gets worse and worse.

1207
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 2: Right, The conditions are varying with the potential for storms

1208
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 2: to blow in, and the climb includes long periods of

1209
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 2: navigating through spiky ice formations called penny ten days, right,

1210
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 2: Penny ten.

1211
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: Days, Penny ten days. Have you ever heard of them? Yeah?

1212
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 2: Literally penitents petitentes because they look like people praying in church.

1213
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 2: They're basically still agmites.

1214
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: There's still lag mites coming up from the ground exactly.

1215
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 2: They're these huge spikes of ice, huge fields of them,

1216
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 2: just coming up from the ground like upside down giant icicles.

1217
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 2: I'm gonna show you a photo. Oh great, because I

1218
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: didn't understand those. Oh, so you have to navigate around those.

1219
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 2: It's just a pain in the ass.

1220
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,479
Speaker 1: Essentially, you can't just like worry about putting one foot

1221
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: in front of the other. No, it looks like.

1222
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 2: An old movie, like a Dune or you know, labyrinth

1223
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

1224
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: Or a doctor no situation exactly.

1225
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: So there's a bunch of those as well. So those

1226
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 2: are a big pain in the ass. They're hard to

1227
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 2: climb around. It's grueling and already feels like people are

1228
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 2: starting to grumble about each other.

1229
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 1: NASA.

1230
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 2: John writes in his diary that he does not think

1231
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 2: Janet is contributing enough. He writes, quote, she's a real

1232
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 2: loaner and appears to be for only one thing, to

1233
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 2: get herself to the summit at the expense of everyone,

1234
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 2: or on everyone's back, meaning they're carrying more than she

1235
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 2: is or something, and she's not really yeah, helping out.

1236
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: That's the first thing I thought of that she would

1237
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: be accused of, because as a woman she can't maybe

1238
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 1: technically carry as much, or if there is that kind

1239
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: of bitterness where they're like, we didn't want her here anyway, totally.

1240
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: That is what you would say.

1241
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 2: Several in the group come down with acute altitude sickness

1242
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 2: right off the bat and stay at Camp one or

1243
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 2: go back to base camp. This includes Karmi right off

1244
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 2: the bat, the leader.

1245
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: The author of the whole plan.

1246
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 2: He's out, the doctor U Banks is out, and Shelton,

1247
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 2: the hot interpreter out gone. The rest of the group

1248
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 2: make it to Camp three. They do the fucking thing

1249
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 2: at the base of the Polish Glacier about eighteen thousand

1250
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 2: feet up and the last camp before the stretch to

1251
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 2: the summit. So one last camp, okay. As they get

1252
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: ready to start climbing, Petrowsky the psychiatrist, can't get on.

1253
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 2: I just hate this word. Can't get on his crampons.

1254
01:02:57,880 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 2: I hate it.

1255
01:02:58,640 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 1: I can't every time I see it.

1256
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 2: Are you gonna spit that out?

1257
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: Why did I take that sip? That's they are spiking.

1258
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 2: Shoe attachments to get into the ice that absorb.

1259
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: Your foot blood every month, not crampons. I just can't

1260
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: a borrow crampon.

1261
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you a krampon. I forgot to bring mond.

1262
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm sliding into the penitents. So he's like.

1263
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 2: Having trouble putting them on, which is weird, and it's

1264
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 2: clear to everyone else that it's because he's disoriented, and

1265
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 2: they think that he's suffering from severe, possibly deadly altitude sickness,

1266
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 2: because at that point your brain is like not working fine.

1267
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: Alone, it is my Tampa.

1268
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 2: The local guide, Alfonso, takes him back down the mountain

1269
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 2: to base camp. So now there are only four climbers

1270
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 2: left in the entire group. Zeller, the police officer, McMillan,

1271
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 2: the good old dairy farmer, and John Nasa John and

1272
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: our Janet. None of them have ever climbed a mountain

1273
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 2: this high before, and none of them knew each other

1274
01:03:58,440 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 2: before the trip.

1275
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 1: Here's the other thing that I just would like to

1276
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm totally wrong in doing this, but the

1277
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: idea that someone was like, she's just doing it for herself,

1278
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: It's like, so how many that are left are doing

1279
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: it for everybody else?

1280
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: Do you want to hold hands at the top of

1281
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 2: the mountain?

1282
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 1: Now? Literally going to be like me first? I mean,

1283
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 1: isn't that kind of what mountaineering is about? Like you

1284
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 1: go together, but it's a one man sport. It ends

1285
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: a woman one woman, Okay, sure?

1286
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 2: According to the accounts, of Zeller and McMillan, the psychiatrist

1287
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 2: and the police officer who are left and spoiler alert,

1288
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 2: they're the only two survivors at the group. Before the

1289
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 2: group had set out believing they would reach the summit

1290
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 2: that day, but had moved very slowly, picking their way

1291
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 2: across the glacier with ice axe and crampons. They realized

1292
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 2: they will have to camp for the night, and they

1293
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:47,959
Speaker 2: didn't bring their tents, so they have to like beave

1294
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 2: a whack into the fucking ice and try to like

1295
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 2: spend the night in there.

1296
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: We'll make themselves like a little igloo.

1297
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 2: It sucks, And so the next morning NASA John Cooper

1298
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 2: says he's too fucking cold. He's like, I'm out sense.

1299
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 2: He's like, I'm going to go back to base camp.

1300
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 2: And they let him go alone, which is something I

1301
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 2: guess we're not supposed to do, which is like maybe

1302
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 2: part of the thing of them not knowing each other. Yeah,

1303
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 2: they don't stick together.

1304
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

1305
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 2: So those three climbers keep going up for the summit.

1306
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 2: The last stretches an icy, snowy Ridge, and Zella and

1307
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 2: McMillan say they walk ahead of Janet, making.

1308
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 1: A path for her.

1309
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 2: Let's see that photo, remember that one. Okay, it's just

1310
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 2: someone hiking with the rope tight around them, leading back

1311
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 2: to whoever's taking the picture behind them.

1312
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: Yep, right, they're at the top, big old mountain. They

1313
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: made it to the top. No they didn't.

1314
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,919
Speaker 2: Ok that's technically not the top.

1315
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: Oh it's on the side. That's the top. Okay, right,

1316
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1317
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 2: What do I know.

1318
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: More than me?

1319
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 2: So they make her a path and at some point,

1320
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 2: as the sun is starting to go down, they turn

1321
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,440
Speaker 2: around and realize Janet's not behind them anymore. According to

1322
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 2: their account, they find her one hundred feet off the trail,

1323
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 2: lying in the snow, and she says, quote, my name

1324
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 2: is jan Johnson. Don't make me suffer, Just let me

1325
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 2: lay here and die end quote. The men say that

1326
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 2: Zeller ropes himself to Janet, and eventually both of the

1327
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:12,480
Speaker 2: men try to get Janet back down the mountain, and

1328
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 2: they say her hands are swollen and black. They have

1329
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 2: to anchor her from three different directions to keep her

1330
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 2: standing up. They get to the snow cave where they

1331
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 2: had been in between the final Ridge and Camp three,

1332
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,439
Speaker 2: where they had spent the night, where Cooper had left

1333
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 2: to go back down the mountain, remember, and there's a

1334
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 2: flare gun there and so they shoot it, but nothing

1335
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 2: happens at the lower altitude at this point because it

1336
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 2: came down. They say, Janet seems in better shape, so

1337
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 2: they send McMillan down the mountain to help. So it's

1338
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 2: just Zeller, the police officer, and Janet at this point,

1339
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 2: who's clearly not doing well. Yeah, on his way down,

1340
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: McMillan loses his ice axe and falls, sliding one thousand

1341
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,439
Speaker 2: feet down. He has a black eye when he tells

1342
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 2: this story and says that's how he got it. Then

1343
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 2: he says he saw members of the Argentine Army and

1344
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 2: dead news and a dead soldier. But it's only when

1345
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 2: he finally reaches camp through that he realized he had

1346
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 2: hallucinated all of that, because that's what happens when you

1347
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 2: have altitude sickness. He will later learn that he really

1348
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 2: did see a body, but it wasn't a dead soldier hallucination.

1349
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 2: It was actually John Cooper's body NASA. John Cooper's no

1350
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 2: thirty five year old NASA engineer. So meanwhile Janet and

1351
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 2: Zeller are following McMillan down the glacier, and they also

1352
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 2: take a big fall, which doesn't result in major injuries,

1353
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 2: but their faces get cut up and their glasses get broken.

1354
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 2: In the fall, Janet and Zeller become untethered from each

1355
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 2: other because remember they had tied her up in three

1356
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 2: places to help walk, and it's only when Zeller climbs

1357
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 2: back up to Janet that he sees John Cooper's body.

1358
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 2: He says, quote, I checked him, and he was dead

1359
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 2: and appeared to be frozen. I didn't see any cuts

1360
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 2: on his exposed skin and no tears in the clothing,

1361
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 2: so I assume that he didn't die as a result

1362
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 2: of a fall, but exhaustion and hypothermia end quote. So

1363
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 2: just kind of sat down on where he was at,

1364
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 2: and yeah, died. Zeller says at this point that Janet

1365
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 2: seems in decent shapes since they've been coming down a bit,

1366
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 2: but wants to rest a bit longer, so he leaves

1367
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,439
Speaker 2: her and says he'll go back ahead of her, back

1368
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 2: down to camp three, which again, you're not supposed to

1369
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 2: leave anyone alone, especially someone who's clearly suffering. He reaches

1370
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 2: camp and he finds McMillan there, and the two fall

1371
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 2: asleep and Janet never joins them. The men say in

1372
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 2: the morning when they woke up, there's no sign of Janet.

1373
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 2: So they decided to go back down the mountain, saying

1374
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 2: that Zeller was too disoriented from altitude sickness to try

1375
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 2: again and to keep going or to help get anyone

1376
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 2: down the mountain. So essentially, just two people of this

1377
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 2: whole mountaineering team make it close to the top and

1378
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 2: come down, and out of the four, only two come

1379
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 2: down alive.

1380
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: Okay.

1381
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 2: The case is widely reported on, and John and Janet's

1382
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 2: families are, of course devastated. In some newspaper articles, Janet's

1383
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 2: name is misspelled as Jeanette. Janet's mother saves clippings of

1384
01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 2: every single article and carefully crosses out every Jeanette replaces

1385
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 2: it with her daughter's correct name. I know some articles

1386
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 2: quote Janet saying having said let me die here, which

1387
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:09,919
Speaker 2: they said that she said, and in all of those articles,

1388
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 2: her mother blacks out the entire quotation. She's like, my

1389
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 2: daughter would never do that. They don't believe that at all.

1390
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:19,679
Speaker 2: A judge and police investigator in Mendoza open a case

1391
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 2: labeled as an investigation into possible manslaughter, but despite this.

1392
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 2: After brief questioning, everyone on the mountaineering team is allowed

1393
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 2: to leave the country and go home. Once back in Oregon,

1394
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 2: Carmi gathers as surviving members at the party for a

1395
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 2: meeting with the club leadership and they write an official

1396
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 2: chronology of events, which is a story everyone tells their

1397
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 2: hometown newspapers and any following investigators. So they put a

1398
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,799
Speaker 2: story together in secret, and everyone sticks to that narrative.

1399
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: Oh so they don't that meeting and that plan is

1400
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 1: a secret plan. They're not like, let's get together and

1401
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 1: put this on the official record.

1402
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 2: No, yeah, they're like, having been interviewed back in Argentina

1403
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 2: and having very different narratives and conflicting stories, they meet

1404
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:05,600
Speaker 2: up and they get their story straight, especially which is suspicious.

1405
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: Yes, it is.

1406
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:06,599
Speaker 3: So.

1407
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 2: The account says that John and Janet had been desperate

1408
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 2: to reach the summit and had likely died of pulmonary

1409
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 2: edemas from lack of oxygen at altitude, and because their

1410
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 2: bodies aren't able to be autopsied, they're still on the mountain.

1411
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:20,720
Speaker 2: That's the general consensus.

1412
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 1: That is so.

1413
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 2: That was nineteen seventy two, and in the summer of

1414
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, John's body is found. That expedition is

1415
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 2: led by Alphonse, our local guide, who is haunted by

1416
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:36,479
Speaker 2: this entire ordeal. At the foot of the Polish Glacier,

1417
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 2: they find ripped tents and sleeping bags, and about one

1418
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty feet above on the glacier they find

1419
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 2: John's body and there's photos of it. John is found

1420
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 2: missing a crampon and without an ice axe. He's on

1421
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 2: a gentle slope and reports say his face is frozen

1422
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 2: in a.

1423
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: Look of terror.

1424
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 2: But like that to me is like everyone is when

1425
01:10:57,640 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 2: they die.

1426
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: Yes, it's the same thing as when it freaks people

1427
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: out and people think it's demonic when people's like eyes

1428
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:05,600
Speaker 1: are missing when their bodies are discovered, and it's like

1429
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: soft tissues is what goes first. Yes, but it looks

1430
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:10,960
Speaker 1: like the devil has been here.

1431
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 2: Right, So that says nothing to me. But it's just it's.

1432
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 1: Noted death, it's dead bodies. Yeah.

1433
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 2: So here's the weirdest part of all to me. His

1434
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 2: abdomen has a cylindrical hole which is bloody and goes

1435
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 2: so deep it almost like hits his spine, though this

1436
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 2: isn't seen until his body thaws. At a lower altitude

1437
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 2: because they bring him down. A National Geographic reporter named

1438
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:34,680
Speaker 2: Lauren McIntyre, who goes with this group, comes to the

1439
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,840
Speaker 2: conclusion that quote, there is no mystery at all. He

1440
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 2: fell on his ice axe and he injured himself. But

1441
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 2: remember his ice as isn't with him when they find him,

1442
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 2: but he could have fallen on it left it behind.

1443
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 2: Then he says he was in so much discomfort and

1444
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 2: pain when he was nearly a base camp that he

1445
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 2: finally got off the steep part of the glacier, got

1446
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 2: down on the flat. He had evidently stopped, sat down

1447
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 2: and removed his gloves and was probably trying to examine

1448
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 2: himself in his wound when he fell on anous and

1449
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 2: froze to death. So he fell on his ice pick.

1450
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,680
Speaker 2: As that consensus, he tells us to the press in

1451
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 2: a statement, and it seems like a lot of people

1452
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 2: take him for his word, even though he's just a

1453
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 2: reporter and not a forensic investigator. Alfonso the Guy feels

1454
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 2: incredibly uneasy about all of this because he specifically remembers

1455
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 2: the two other climbers saying they had seen John's body

1456
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 2: in a seated position, not laying down. With his head

1457
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 2: in his hands. But of course they had been hallucinating.

1458
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:26,760
Speaker 1: You can't.

1459
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 2: You have to remember the whole time that these two

1460
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 2: who survived were probably suffering from out some sort of

1461
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 2: altigide sickness as well. Janet's body is not found until

1462
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 2: February nineteen seventy five. Ernesto Cumballero and his son Alberto,

1463
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 2: who's seventeen, are with another climber named Guillermo Vieio when

1464
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,760
Speaker 2: they have to scrap their summit attempt and decide to

1465
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 2: climb down via the Polish glacier in a field of

1466
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 2: penny ten days and covered by some snow. So it's

1467
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:58,759
Speaker 2: a field of those and it's covered by some snow.

1468
01:12:58,800 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 2: They find Janet's body.

1469
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:00,879
Speaker 1: Ooh.

1470
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 2: Her face is blackened from two years of exposure, but

1471
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 2: it's also severely injured with exposed bone, and there is

1472
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 2: blood visible on her face and jacket. And like John,

1473
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 2: she's missing one crampon and her ice axe. Her hands

1474
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 2: are bare. She's tangled up in ropes, and this is

1475
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 2: super ran. A rock is found sitting on top of

1476
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 2: her body, and there are no rocks around. She's in

1477
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 2: this ice field field exactly. So she's found on a

1478
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 2: shallow slope far from anywhere she could have possibly fallen

1479
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 2: a long distance with Zeller, So that narrative that that's

1480
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 2: how he lost her and she could have died isn't true.

1481
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 2: So Alberta is a teenager and doesn't really know it

1482
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 2: to make up at all. But the other two men

1483
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 2: will say that they are sure Janet was murdered. Of

1484
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 2: course they are just as an expert as a National

1485
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 2: geographic reporter who swears the opposite. But it doesn't look

1486
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 2: like it squares up with the official narrative of the expedition.

1487
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:00,720
Speaker 1: It's just such a weird thing for a porter to

1488
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: come out and just be like, I'm almost positive that

1489
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 1: this is what happened, where it's like, sorry, aren't you

1490
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: a reporter? Right?

1491
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1492
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: I would you.

1493
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 2: Supposed to speculate?

1494
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:09,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally.

1495
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 2: A medical student who was present for the autopsies of

1496
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,599
Speaker 2: both John and Janet says that John had a skull

1497
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 2: fracture and that hole in his abdomen which looked to

1498
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 2: him like it could have been made by an ice crew,

1499
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,839
Speaker 2: maybe your ice pick as well. The injuries to Janet's

1500
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 2: face and damage to her boot looked like she had

1501
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 2: been hit hard several times, so it looked like she

1502
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 2: had plant forestroma to her face.

1503
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1504
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 2: The medical student who is now a neurosurgeon, is also

1505
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:40,320
Speaker 2: convinced that they were killed and that their deaths were

1506
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 2: not accidental. He says that this was the consensus and

1507
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 2: that the medical examiner believed the same, and they're all

1508
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 2: dead now, so he's kind of one of the last

1509
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:52,200
Speaker 2: people who can verify that. Janet is buried at the

1510
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 2: small cemetery at the base of the Aconcagua, which she

1511
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 2: had told her family she wanted before the expedition if

1512
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,599
Speaker 2: she perished on the mountain. No one from her family

1513
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 2: is able to attend, but someone leaves flowers with the

1514
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:08,799
Speaker 2: note detu madre or from your mother on her grave.

1515
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 2: That's so sad, and the only item her sister receives

1516
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 2: it is Janet's ring with a brown stone from her finger,

1517
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 2: and Judy still has it today. Unfortunately, any chance of

1518
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 2: for their investigation, so here's maybe there would have been

1519
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 2: a big investigation and the answers would have happened. However,

1520
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 2: it's nineteen seventy six in Argentina and there is a

1521
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 2: there's a violent military coup that overthrows a democratically elected

1522
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 2: president Parone and establishes a military dictatorship that brutally just

1523
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 2: consumes Argentina for years. I hate to gloss over that

1524
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 2: because it's so important, And.

1525
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: Just go watch the musical A Vida. You'll learn at

1526
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: least one woman's perspective exactly.

1527
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 2: So moving on just like that, but you know, there's

1528
01:15:56,439 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 2: no chance of further investigation. Essentially, the last surviving thember

1529
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 2: of the party, John Shelton, the mor No the Mormon

1530
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 2: missionary missionary BYU student, was in hospice care at the

1531
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 2: time of this New York Times article by John Branch

1532
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:14,640
Speaker 2: and Emily Ryan, and they go see him in his

1533
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 2: hospice bed. He insists that there is no foul play.

1534
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:22,679
Speaker 2: He calls that idea hogwash, and he dies a month

1535
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,839
Speaker 2: before the article is published. But he firmly doesn't believe.

1536
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 2: And but you know that's the narrative.

1537
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: That's the narrative that he he was at the secret

1538
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:31,680
Speaker 1: meeting to establish.

1539
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:32,639
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and he wasn't there.

1540
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 1: He was, Oh yeah, he wasn't wasn't so, but you

1541
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:38,360
Speaker 1: know that's based on everyone.

1542
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:41,680
Speaker 2: That's his opinion, right, those around the uconcago community have

1543
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 2: more mixed feelings. Even though the medical examiner felt certain

1544
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 2: foul play had been involved, they might not adequately understand

1545
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,759
Speaker 2: the damage a fault in the mountain terrain could actually inflict.

1546
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:55,400
Speaker 2: So that makes complete sense. But still, looking back at

1547
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 2: the conditions at the time on the glacier, the amount

1548
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 2: of soft snow would have made a very long fall

1549
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 2: improbable or maybe impossible. So when Janet's camera is found,

1550
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:08,719
Speaker 2: the film is sent to a special archival photo development

1551
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:11,439
Speaker 2: company in Canada called Film Rescue.

1552
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 1: Because they're like, what's on here?

1553
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if just anyone tries to develop it, it's

1554
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 2: going to get fucked up. So they are able to

1555
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 2: get all the photos off of it, so the camera

1556
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 2: film and another role of film they found are able

1557
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,639
Speaker 2: to be processed. And the pictures show the party mostly

1558
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 2: smiling in those early stages of the journey, hauling gear

1559
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 2: and setting up camp. The photos are beautiful and well composed,

1560
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 2: and actually, can you show one of them, really beautiful photos.

1561
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 2: This is on the mountain for fucking fifty years.

1562
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: Wow, just sitting up there. Yeah.

1563
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 2: Also, Zella and McMillan said, when she turned around and

1564
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 2: saw that she was gone, he said, well, we weren't

1565
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 2: tied together, so she could have just left. But that

1566
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:57,559
Speaker 2: one photo that she took, they're tied together. So is

1567
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 2: that her last clue? They are tied together? Whoever took

1568
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 2: this photo? And we're not totally positive which one of

1569
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 2: them that is they are roped together? Yes?

1570
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 1: So so why lie? Right? What's the lie about? Exactly?

1571
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 3: So?

1572
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,679
Speaker 2: John Branch writes in the New York Times article, quote,

1573
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 2: if she was oxygen deprived or delirious, she still knew

1574
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 2: how to focus the lens, compose the frame, and hold

1575
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:25,240
Speaker 2: the camera study to take clear photographs. That is where

1576
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:28,960
Speaker 2: the film ends. That is where the legend begins. The

1577
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 2: film does not solve the mystery. It adds to it.

1578
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:34,639
Speaker 2: It tells you what Johnson saw in her final hours,

1579
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:38,559
Speaker 2: but not how she felt, not how she died. Not

1580
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 2: every discovery leads to revelation. Some just make you want

1581
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 2: to know more. End quote. And that is the story

1582
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 2: of the Aconcagua Mountain mystery. And you can punch me

1583
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:49,639
Speaker 2: in the face.

1584
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 1: Just why, God damn.

1585
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 2: Just one time you can punch me in the pit.

1586
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 1: You really set that up like we were gonna get sorry, But.

1587
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,960
Speaker 2: Okay, let's speculate care speculation allegedly. Allegedly, this is just

1588
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 2: a true crime podcast theory. We're not doctors, that's right.

1589
01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 2: Did one of them go?

1590
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 1: Although we could have been it's been ten years, we

1591
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:09,799
Speaker 1: could have gotten a PhD.

1592
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:15,000
Speaker 2: Why don't we have our fucking honorary degrees from Sacramento

1593
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 2: and La City College?

1594
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,639
Speaker 1: Yause they know we're fool of shit, so speaking up.

1595
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 2: So maybe one of them actually kind of had lost

1596
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 2: it on the mountain and was hallucinating something and killed them.

1597
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was not sexually assaulted as well.

1598
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 2: I don't think that a sane, normal person would be

1599
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 2: able or have the energy to attack someone like that

1600
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 2: with being at that elevation. But if you were hallucinating,

1601
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: if you were, if you had delirious.

1602
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:46,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you didn't like a person to the degree

1603
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 1: where they kind of invaded your space, right, and then

1604
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 1: it's not just anybody, it's this lady that's I'm going

1605
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:56,719
Speaker 1: to get there for myself, is their perception for some reason.

1606
01:19:57,280 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 2: But or she was pushing to keep going and they

1607
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:01,840
Speaker 2: didn't want to. But I don't think that there was

1608
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:04,360
Speaker 2: that level of linear thinking at.

1609
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:07,760
Speaker 1: That height because they had such bad Yeah, like.

1610
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 2: On the way down, he saw, you know, he was hallucinated.

1611
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:14,800
Speaker 2: So what happened up there? Did he hallucinate?

1612
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 1: There?

1613
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:17,519
Speaker 2: He was at war and these were soldiers, and you.

1614
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:20,200
Speaker 1: Know, but I guess if that were the case, then

1615
01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:22,719
Speaker 1: when they all got together to put a story together,

1616
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 1: why wouldn't they be able to say, hey, listen, these

1617
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 1: are the myriad stories we have because these are the

1618
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 1: crazy things we experienced.

1619
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 2: Because mountaineering would change forever after that. Like I see them,

1620
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 2: these mountaineers, these guys, guys banding together and being like,

1621
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,400
Speaker 2: let's not you know, we're going to get a bunch

1622
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 2: of press over this. We just wanted like this to

1623
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,000
Speaker 2: kind of be hidden so we can go on doing

1624
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,680
Speaker 2: what we're doing, and we don't want to ruin these guys.

1625
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 2: Like the memories of these people and the lives of

1626
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 2: the living ones. This is speculation. I'm not saying this

1627
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 2: is true or right. Their entire families because they had

1628
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 2: altitude sickness and did and some crazy thing yeah that

1629
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:07,360
Speaker 2: they weren't aware of, they don't remember and you know,

1630
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 2: in their minds aren't responsible for. So I'm not saying

1631
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 2: I think that's true.

1632
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 1: But it sounds like you think that's possible. Like as

1633
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: opposed to the usual where it's like they killed her

1634
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 1: or whatever. It's like you're like, something weird happened, for sure,

1635
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: But what they're protecting probably isn't just a pure killer, right,

1636
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:31,759
Speaker 1: it's more of an accident situational. Yeah, I know, doesn't

1637
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:33,680
Speaker 1: it seem like though, that's a little bit more of

1638
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:37,760
Speaker 1: an argument of not mountaineering, because it's like you'll get oh,

1639
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:40,640
Speaker 1: you'll get up there, no, yeah, and you'll be hallucinating

1640
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:43,519
Speaker 1: dead soldiers all around you because you're not supposed to

1641
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 1: go up that.

1642
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 2: High, right, because our bodies and brains were not meant

1643
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 2: for that elevation. Yeah, I mean I got sick in

1644
01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:51,320
Speaker 2: Denver because it was too fucking high.

1645
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:53,639
Speaker 1: How high we were on stage in Salt Lake City

1646
01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: the first time we played there, we had to take

1647
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:58,600
Speaker 1: oxygen in the va It's crazy, right, And that was

1648
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 1: like I'm guessing right now, three thousand feet above sea level,

1649
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:05,719
Speaker 1: like probably not even close to this, it's serious.

1650
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but a camera being found in the fucking ice.

1651
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:12,960
Speaker 1: Also, it does sound a little fake the I'm saying

1652
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:16,559
Speaker 1: she said my name is Janet. That whole story, yeah,

1653
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:21,800
Speaker 1: seems fake, Yeah, and oversimplified, Like if you fell and

1654
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 1: were laying there dying. Yeah, wouldn't you just be like

1655
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:27,519
Speaker 1: cat help leave me or get help?

1656
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:30,519
Speaker 2: I mean, I think leave me makes sense if you're

1657
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 2: a true mountaineer.

1658
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1659
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 2: Tell us what mountaineering is like at my favorite murder

1660
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:37,759
Speaker 2: at gmount And Wow, I don't know.

1661
01:22:38,240 --> 01:22:41,760
Speaker 1: What other mysteries will be uncovered over the years as

1662
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 1: the snow melts. Those crampons dos those crampons come rolling along?

1663
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:47,960
Speaker 1: Ice pick? DNA tests them.

1664
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 2: I mean he had a hole in.

1665
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 1: His Yeah, he got ice picked somehow. Yea, yeah, did he.

1666
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:54,880
Speaker 2: Fall on it?

1667
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 1: That's possible. Oh man, Well that was a great story.

1668
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 1: I mean that was very compelling.

1669
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:03,639
Speaker 2: I've been excited to tell you about it. Despite the ending,

1670
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:04,560
Speaker 2: I apologize.

1671
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 1: I love seventies photographs. Yeah, I love the idea that

1672
01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 1: at the very end, it's like except for that they

1673
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 1: were tied together. Right, that's wild?

1674
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Well, jump rope, jump on a trampoline. Keep

1675
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:19,400
Speaker 2: it positive, don't go on a mountain, don't go hiking

1676
01:23:19,479 --> 01:23:20,120
Speaker 2: up on a mountain.

1677
01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:23,120
Speaker 1: Don't be a hero. Don't be a hero. Speak up.

1678
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: Your voice is wanted and needed, Yes, definitely, And of course,

1679
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:28,919
Speaker 1: stay sexy and don't get murdered.

1680
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:32,200
Speaker 2: Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

1681
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:41,639
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1682
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,519
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1683
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:45,320
Speaker 2: is Tessa Hughes.

1684
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 1: Our editor is Aristotle Lascevedo.

1685
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:49,600
Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

1686
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1687
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:55,439
Speaker 2: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot.

1688
01:23:55,240 --> 01:23:58,040
Speaker 1: Com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

1689
01:23:58,120 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 2: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iheartrate you app,

1690
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1691
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 1: And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

1692
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 2: And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and

1693
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 2: the remind Me buttons. That's the best way you can

1694
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 2: support our show.

1695
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 1: Goodbye,