WEBVTT - Encore: S03 Ep. 9 - Sandra and Kim’s Family Secret 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.120 I'm Laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:08.879 Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:10.039 column for the Atlantic. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:13.400 And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:15.920 and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.079 And this is Dear Therapists. 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:20.960 Each week we invite you into a real session where 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.720 we help people confront their biggest problems and then give 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.560 them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:27.320 in their lives. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:32.199 So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.199 we're in session with sisters Sondra and Kim, who discover 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:40.000 a family secret that their parents held for sixty years. 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.880 I internally just felt like there's something that's not right here. 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.440 We were asked our whole lives if we had the 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.080 same parents. First. 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.440 A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.000 It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.640 not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.560 Submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:04.679 it in part orn full, and we may edit it 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.560 for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.640 names have been changed for the privacy of our guests. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.639 Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So who do we have visiting 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:17.360 us this week? 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.119 Well, this week we have two sisters and their names 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.120 are Sandra and Kim, and their letter goes like this, 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.160 Dear therapists, My sister and I very recently found out 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.720 that we are donor conceived through two anonymous donors. She 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.919 is fifty nine and I am sixty one. We found 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.119 out quite accidentally through ancestry and twenty three and meters. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.160 We have discovered not only that we are half sisters 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.760 from different donors, but that we each have many other 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.959 half siblings and other family members. Our mom, who is 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.520 now eighty seven, never told us and has spent our 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.160 entire lives actively lying about our parentage and our medical history, 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.760 as well as embellishing the stories of her pregnancies. Our father, 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.080 who we grew up with, died thirty eight years ago. 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.279 As you may imagine, finding this out at our ages 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.880 has been extremely upsetting on many levels. We feel entirely 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.040 betrayed by our own mother. Any help you could possibly 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:10.720 offer would be much appreciated. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.360 Sondra, Well, here's another one. Of these situations in which 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:20.440 DNA testing reveals something about people's history that they didn't know. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:25.080 And the issue is it really causes a psychological seismic 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.200 shift almost that makes you potentially question so many aspects 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.960 about who you are and so many aspects of your 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.600 relationships here with her mother, probably her father, her sister, 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.639 all these new people in her life. So it's this 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:46.079 one discovery that can truly be incredibly difficult to process 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.000 and manage and think through. I am glad that we're 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.440 going to be talking to both these sisters, because clearly 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.240 this is something that would be easier for them to 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:54.040 process together. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.320 What I think is so interesting is that whenever people 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.800 discover that there's been a secret in the family, it 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.560 does make you question what was real, what was not real. 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.440 And she mentioned that it's very upending to get this 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.320 information at their ages, but I think at any age 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:10.880 it's the kind of thing where you start to really 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.799 wonder what does this all mean? So I'm really interested 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.280 to talk to them and explore that with them. 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.600 Yeah, let's go talk to them. 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.760 You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:34.000 be back after a short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb. 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:37.280 And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dea Therapists. 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.240 Hi, Sandra, Hi Kim, welcome to the show. 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.040 Hi, Hi, thank you for having us our pleasure. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.320 It's great to have you both. Would like to start 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:49.440 with a little bit of a snapshot what your lives 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:51.680 were like before you found this out. So if we 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.440 rewind a few months and I asked you, tell me 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.960 a little bit about your lives, each of you tell 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.320 us and so we have a picture of the context 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.160 within which this happened. Sandra, maybe you can start. 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:06.200 Okay, I'm a teacher. I taught high school for the 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:09.400 past ten years, and I taught before that. I'm divorced. 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.560 I have a roommate, I have a long distance boyfriend. 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:19.320 I have two grown daughters in their twenties. They don't 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:19.800 live with me. 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:21.719 What about you, Kim, tell us a little bit about 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:23.400 your life. 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.520 Happy life. My husband and I are both retired. We 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.800 are empty nesters. We are free to do what we want. 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.720 Everything was going great, and how well are your kids? 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:35.839 Twenty eight and thirty two. 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:37.640 Would like to hear a little bit about how this 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.400 was discovered, who found out, how it was communicated to 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:41.800 the other. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.480 Okay, I'm the one who quite accidentally found out. I 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:50.760 actually went on Ancestry in twenty sixteen, kind of just 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.279 for fun to see if there was anything interesting. Nothing 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:59.359 stood out to me really on there, and I actually 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.560 had not been back on Ancestry in years. So I 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:07.160 went back on and the first person under DNA relative 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.880 I saw was one of my children who did it. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.320 She comes up as my daughter at fifty percent shared DNA, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.360 and underneath her there is a man's name who I've 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:22.000 never seen, who came up as my second closest relative 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:26.800 at twenty seven percent shared DNA. So of course I 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.599 was a little flipped out. Ancestry, I think, tries to 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.320 soften the blow because they list him as a first cousin. 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.320 At that time, we all looked up what twenty seven 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.839 percent meant, and we saw that means that this person 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.359 is not in fact a first cousin, but a half sibling. 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:51.080 That this man would be my brother. So I called 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.560 my sister and I asked her if she ever heard 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.120 of this person's name before, you know who is he? 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:02.599 And she hadn't. And I sent him a message to 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.760 Ancestry and said, hey, I saw you came up at 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.600 twenty seven percent, I don't recognize your name, and he 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.719 immediately messaged me back and said, Hi, here's my cell number. 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.080 Let's discuss. 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:16.200 So he knew. 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.480 He knew. So at first we thought, oh, this can't 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.719 be right, you know, before we spoke with him, maybe 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.120 he's some secret love child of you know, one of 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:32.719 my uncles. And then the twenty seven percent just kept 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.359 telling me that's not true. So I went to my 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:40.440 sister's house and we called him together and talked to 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:44.799 him for a long time. That's how I first learned 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:45.960 the true story. 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.800 Can you tell us what he said on that phone call? 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.560 Yes, Well, he was very gentle with us. He was 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:58.240 very very kind, very gregarious. And the first thing he 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:03.159 asked us was, we're your father and obgyn at the 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:11.560 Specific hospital in Manhattan, and we said no, why, and 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.600 he said, let me tell you a story. So he 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:21.760 told us that in twenty twenty, his wife had read 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:27.000 a book called Inheritance and it was about DNA donors, 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.880 and his wife and his mom were close, and his 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.520 wife told his mom, his ninety plus year old mom, 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:41.880 about this book, and she confessed, well, actually that's how 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.160 I had my son from a sperm donor, we weren't 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.440 able to have children, and then he proceeded to go 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.280 on ancestry and do his DNA. So he told us 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.680 the story, recommended we read this book, and then he 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:01.880 started asking us questions about our father, after asking if 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:06.840 he had been a doctor or an OBGYN residence, because 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.440 that seems to be the pattern with everyone involved with this. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.120 That's who all the donors are turning out to be 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.840 from this one specific hospital in this time period. 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.800 They were all residents at the hospital at the time, 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:20.160 and that's why they were donating. 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.360 They were all OBGYN residents in the fifties and sixties. 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.360 And we said, no, he wasn't. So he just said, 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:34.360 here's what I think you two should do, twenty three 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.600 and me because that's where all of the other half 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.600 siblings are. Just he also happened to be on both sites, 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.800 and you're going to find out all these names on there, 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:48.840 and he gave us a list of names, who, of 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:53.720 course all turned out to be my half siblings and 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.600 some of their children. Oh, and then he told us 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.680 that his best guess is that the two of us 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.560 are going to turn out to be half sisters and 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:03.720 not full sisters. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.400 What was that like. When he said that might be 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:07.880 the case, and Kim. 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:08.840 Would like to hear from you. 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.840 I couldn't believe at all that this story could be true. 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:17.160 I thought maybe he was a love child from my 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.040 father and his mother. But I thought, there's no way 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.240 we're from donors. Our mother would have told us that 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:28.800 there is not a chance that could be true. And 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.240 then when he kept saying that it is true, I thought, well, okay, 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:37.680 perhaps Sandra is from a donor, but I truly believe 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.640 that I was from the man who raised me. And 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.079 so when he said that you're going to be from 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.959 different fathers and they're going to be different donors, I thought, 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:47.920 no way. 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:50.000 My father definitely was My father. 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.680 Was the reason that you felt that this was definitely 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.880 your father because you had a closer relationship with him 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:56.760 than Sandra did. 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.560 I think I felt closer to him. I also felt 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.760 closer to his family. And if this story was true, 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.840 that meant my grandmother wasn't my biological grandmother, My aunts 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:11.480 weren't my biological aunts, My cousins weren't my biological cousins. 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.760 Like I could not believe any of that. We were 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.959 very close growing up. We grew up within five minutes 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.440 of now. We saw them every week. There's no way 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:20.560 that this story could be true. 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.440 Sandra, What was your relationship like with your father? 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.280 I had a pretty good relationship with my father. I 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.439 mean it had its ups and downs. Well, I think 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.640 I probably felt more like the black sheep of the family. 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:38.320 I always felt different growing up. I internally just just 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.720 felt like there's something that's not right here. Besides the 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:46.000 superficial that the two of us don't look like, we're 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.680 also very different from each other. And I felt different 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.600 from my father's family, even though they were very good 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.200 to us and kind to us, something just always felt off. 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.040 We were asked our whole lives if we had the 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.960 same parents. Yeah, we do, Well, you don't look alike 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.080 and you're so different from each other. I mean it 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.200 even went as far as my sister used to ask 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.920 my mom if she was adopted. Yes, I did. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.640 Why Kim, did you ask that question? Because you're saying 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.000 you felt really close to your father on his side 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.480 of the family. Were you feeling differently regarding your mom? 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.400 Because I didn't look like anyone, and so I kept thinking, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:26.920 am I adopted? 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:28.320 I'm not adopted? Right? 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:30.920 And then she would say no, of course you're not adopted. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.720 So I was like, oh, okay, but I knew something 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:34.319 was off. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.199 This is what happens when there are secrets in a family. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.120 We hear this all the time, that people always know 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.760 that something is off. That's the phrase that you just used, 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.560 and that's the phrase we always hear something was off. 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.720 I couldn't put my finger on it, but I knew 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:54.080 that there was something that I just couldn't articulate that 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.280 didn't feel as it seemed. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:57.800 That's exactly right. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.000 So, Kim, this man is telling you be prepared. You 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.640 might only be half sisters tell us what happened from them. 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.640 So then I went to do the twenty three ye 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:12.640 ME test. I ordered it immediately and you know, waited 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.240 anxiously for those results. And when they came in, I 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:21.000 was completely shocked. Even though I was told to be prepared, 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:22.400 I couldn't believe it. 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:23.760 What were the results. 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:25.480 The results were. 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:29.440 That I also was from a donor and not the 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:34.400 same one as my sister. And when I opened up 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.080 the results at the first person he comes up in 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.480 order of how much DNA you share, And this person 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.040 comes up at the very top and it says fifty 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:48.600 percent share DNA, this is your father, has his name 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.760 Robert and his picture, and I just gasped. 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:54.480 I couldn't believe it. 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.560 What happened when you saw not only his name but 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:57.160 his picture. 0:12:58.440 --> 0:12:59.920 I was just in shock. 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.280 Were there any similarities you saw in the image that 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.600 made you feel like, oh, maybe this is my father 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:07.520 or did it feel like, no, this man is not. 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.280 Like how much did it resonate that this person actually 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.400 is your biological father? 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:14.040 It felt like it was not. 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.160 So there was a resistance to it, to that notion. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.280 Even though the DNA is there at fifty percent, it 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:20.480 just doesn't feel real. 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.439 Yes, when I opened up my results, I figured I'm 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.800 going to see someone on there from my father's side 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.800 of the family who maybe just did the test and 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.320 never told me they did. That's what I was expecting 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.240 to see. And he came up at the top at 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.960 fifty percent, and then underneath a whole bunch of half 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.440 siblings came up at like twenty five percent. 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:42.920 When you say a whole bunch and Soandra, you also 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:44.680 said there was a list of were talking two or three, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.040 were talking, five, six, ten, Like give us a sense 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.840 of how many people now, yeah, for me it's about 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:51.000 ten and Sondra. 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.600 For you, I think it's about four or five. And 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.760 some obvious nephews or nieces came up also. I'm sure 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.080 there or more out there and they just haven't been 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.720 discovered yet. But what was really shocking to me was 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:09.480 when I did twenty three and meters afterwards also at 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.760 the same time, and we're talking just about two months ago, 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:18.800 and to open my account and to see my sister Kim, 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.600 who I grew up with, with her picture and her name, 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.160 to say half sister, even though I knew it was 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.600 going to come up, it was shocking. It was jarring. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.480 Yes, I felt the same way to see that she's 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.960 twenty five percent and so are all of these strangers. 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.480 What were those first conversations like between the two of 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.240 you once that confirmation came in and you knew at 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:44.480 least what you were dealing with. 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.520 She called me and I was actually with one of 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.640 my daughters in the car, and we were in shock. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:15:00.560 I mean, we started from shocking, disbelief and anger, grief. 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.160 I'm mostly in grief in the grief part, trying to 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:10.320 accept now, but we're angry and angry at our mother. 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:16.680 Very disappointed, and for you, Kim, after shock, I also 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.280 felt to anger because how could she not tell me? 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.600 And the truth is I gave her. 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:28.320 Every opportunity because after Sandra got the result from ancestry 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.600 and knew that she had a half sibling, and he 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:33.560 had told me that this probably was going to be 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.240 my story as well, I thought, Okay, I'm going to 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.640 tell my mother that I'm going to do twenty three 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.160 and me, I told her, well, we want to find 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.800 out about our health. But I said, and also, I 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:50.040 think it's so interesting. They give you all of the ancestors, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.480 They tell you everybody who you are related to, and 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.920 the present of DNA you share, and they will say 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.360 what relationship they are to you. She had a cousin 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.600 years ago who took probably years to draw out a 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.480 whole family tree, and I said, in the family tree 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.360 will just pop up on the computer. So this way 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:13.320 she knew exactly what I would find out. So I thought, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.760 if this story is true, I'm giving her now until 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.480 I get my results, three to four weeks for her 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.880 to come clean, because I wanted to hear it from her. 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.360 And not from a computer, not from a stranger. And 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.200 she did not come through for me. 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.040 Is there a reason that in that conversation instead of 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.520 testing her to see if she would come clean to you, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:36.640 was there a reason that you didn't want to say 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.240 to her, Hey, mom, Sandra did this DNA test. This 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.840 is what she found. I'm now doing a DNA test. 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:44.680 Is there something that we don't know? 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:45.480 Well? 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.040 I think part of it was I was thinking perhaps 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.640 my father was the donor, and I thought, what if 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.160 she doesn't know that, And so I figured I'll just 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.560 throw it out there, see what she says. But she 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.840 didn't say anything. So then I thought, I'm not sure 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:08.119 what's going on, and perhaps he really was my biological father. 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.000 When you say she didn't say anything, what did she 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:10.800 actually say? 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.160 She mentioned about the health. She said, Oh, I don't 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.320 know why you would want to know that beforehand. I 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:17.720 like to be in the dark. 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.320 So she did say something. When you said she said nothing, 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.840 she was actually trying to dissuade you from getting the 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.520 information because she knew what would come up. 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.840 Probably yeah, But she just said, you know, she likes 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:31.200 to be in the dark about everything. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.639 She was hoping you would not take the DNA test. 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:38.720 Probably, So tell us what happened once you have those results. 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.120 How did you decide when to speak to her, how 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:43.960 to talk to her. We'd like to hear how that 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:45.560 went down. 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.080 Well. I just want to add also that I told 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:53.480 her before Kim that I was doing twenty three and meters, 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.959 and my sister just told her more about what we 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.159 would find. I told her, I'm doing it because I 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.960 really want to get the health panel, but it will 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:08.480 also show me who my relatives are and our ancestry. 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.480 And her response was you believe that stuff? I said, yeah, mom, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.560 it's science. And that was it. But there was another 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:20.040 point in twenty sixteen when I did the original ancestry test, 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.040 and this comes up in the conversation with what you 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.879 asked I. I told her in twenty sixteen that I 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:32.080 was doing ancestry and she yelled at me. She got 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:36.760 very angry with me and said that you know you 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.520 already know what your ancestry is. Why would you spend 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.240 your money on that? And I said, I just want 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.760 to do it. She was livid with me. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:47.919 So there was a real pattern there of her trying 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.600 to dissuade you each from doing these kinds of tests, 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:56.640 from finding out what she probably anticipated you might find. Out. 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:01.280 Yes, So what happened once you got the results of 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.160 the tests each of you? Did you go and talk 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.040 to your mom again with the results we did. 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:13.040 We discussed it between us for a few days and 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.480 then decided today's the day. About three or four days later, 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.600 we're going to go over to her house and see her. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.240 We see each other a lot, we talk all the time. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.280 So I texted her, I said, we're coming over to 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.240 see her. We both got there and we told her 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.679 sit down on the couch and we took out some 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.639 chairs and sat in her living room across from her, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.000 and my sister told her, well, we got our twenty 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.160 three and me test back. Mom, is there anything you'd 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.840 like to share with us? I told her that we 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:55.960 were confused and shocked by our results. She said, what 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.600 could you have found out? I don't know what you're 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:03.679 talking about. So she still wasn't coming clean, and she 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.440 had to know that's why we're there. She was never 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.639 ever going to tell us. She was taking it to 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.199 the grief. So she denied it, and she said, I 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:17.480 don't know what you could have found out. And after 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.480 a few times for saying that, I just couldn't hold 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.919 it back. Anymore. And I said, how about that, My 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.320 poor sister has to open up her twenty three and 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.520 meis and have it say, here's your father with his 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.080 picture and his name, and to see all her half 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.119 siblings and for me to see that she's my half sister. 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.679 Let's start there, Mom, do you want to explain that? 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:43.160 Then she said it's true. 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:48.160 Finally, I said so, in other words, you weren't going 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.520 to confess until you were caught. And she said that's right, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.880 because she said your father and I had a pact. 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.679 We were going to tell no one, So she was 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.639 never going to tell us until we atally told her 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:01.400 what we found out. 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:06.520 She said, I was praying, and our mother doesn't pray, Okay, 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.120 I was praying you wouldn't find out. We were never 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.880 going to tell you, and I didn't want anyone from 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:17.639 your father's family to ever know this. And let me 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.800 tell you, there are only a few people left, only 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.760 a few cousins, and they don't live near us, and 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:26.880 she's not even in contact with them. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.159 Did she explain to you why they had made this 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:34.600 pact and why it was so important that nobody find out. No, 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.120 it sounds like she and your father really loved you both, 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.479 and so I'm wondering if you both were curious at 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:49.680 all underneath all of the anger and sense of shock 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:54.480 and betrayal. I wonder if you were curious about why 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.960 they might have made that packed. In other words, maybe 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.000 they were trying to protect you or do you have 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.760 any sense of what their reasoning is? As much as 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.520 you disagree with it, did you have any curiosity about that? 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.040 Yes, I do have curiosity about that. 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:13.320 And we haven't spoken to her about this since that day, 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:16.520 and I don't know if I ever want to bring 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:17.440 it up with her again. 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.119 But I am curious why it had to be so secretive. 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.920 I actually know the answer to that, not from her personally, 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:30.199 but from all the research we've done since then, and 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:33.080 from the people that we know who we've spoken with, 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.480 like my sister's siblings. A few of them got to 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.399 talk to her father. Her biological father only died two 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.640 years ago, and from what he said and the other said, 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:47.320 records were never kept. There was just a sign up sheep, 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.480 and it was supposed to be a secret. From what 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:55.240 I understand, back in the sixties and maybe the seventies, 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:59.440 no one was supposed to be told, which is outrageous 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:05.600 that we're denied our medical records, our biological history. So 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.440 I'm guessing that she was told not to say anything 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:12.199 because of that at the time. But the problem I 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.240 have is she knows this is not the sixties or 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.840 the seventies, and that she purposely was withheld the information. 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:24.479 And our father, who raised us died thirty eight years ago, 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:28.919 and from what we've read, most of the moms who 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.159 were alive after the father's died told the children the 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:36.720 truth about their parentage, and our mothers still didn't. 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:39.840 Might have siblings have now shared with me letters from 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:43.480 our biological father because they did get to speak with 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:47.240 him and exchange letters and to video calls with him 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.160 and all that. And he said everything was anonymous. No 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:53.919 one knew who the sperm donor was, and the sperm 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:57.520 donor had no idea who was receiving the sperm. That's 0:23:57.560 --> 0:23:59.800 just how it was back then. It was very secretive, 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.240 which could just be maybe why my parents wanted it 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.760 so secretive. I'll assume the doctors said this is a 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:09.680 very secretive thing, don't tell anyone. 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.600 So that was two months ago. What else transpired in 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:15.560 that conversation and what has your contact been like with 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:16.400 her since then. 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:21.719 What had transpired was that she was very important to 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:26.360 her that we do not tell our first cousins on 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:30.320 our father's side this story. I don't know why it 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:32.840 still has to be so secretive. She just said, don't 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:36.160 tell your cousins, and I'm trying to figure out, well, 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:38.199 does she have the right to tell me that? Is 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:41.640 it her secret? Is it my secret? Who owns this secret? 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:44.520 Can I live my true life and not have to 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:46.800 hide my identsity? 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:49.080 What I find so interesting about this is both of 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:52.359 you had so many questions, and you came over to 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:55.879 talk to your mom about what you had discovered, and 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.800 neither of you asked all of the questions that were 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:03.600 swirling around in your mind. Is that something that has 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:07.800 been the relationship with your parents growing up where there 0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:10.639 wasn't a lot of open communication in general, because there 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:12.920 were so many questions that you had, and you're making 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.760 so many guesses about what the answers are without having 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:18.360 asked her. When you had the opportunity to ask her. 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:21.760 We did ask her, and she just kept repeating the 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:24.919 same things. It was a pact I made with your father. 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:28.560 It was a packed that was the same answer that 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:29.720 kept coming up. 0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:33.399 Well, Sandra, I mean the question such as, why can't 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:36.320 we tell Dad's side of the family, Why can't we 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:38.600 tell the cousins? That was a question, but you didn't 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:40.800 ask her. Do you know why? 0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:42.400 Yeah, we didn't ask. 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:44.800 Lourie's asking you why you didn't ask it. 0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:51.440 Our mom is generally very secretive, and when you try 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:55.240 to push for more answers, she sometimes just shuts off. 0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:58.159 And I can tell you that through the years, she 0:25:58.320 --> 0:26:02.080 has told me that I tell my children too much. 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:05.960 I mean, my children are adults now. She has repeatedly said, 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:09.240 you don't need to tell them everything. You tell them 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:14.040 too much. So I understand the kind of person that 0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:17.600 I'm dealing with. I also understand she is a product 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:23.119 of her generation. She's almost eighty eight. But she's very secretive. 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:26.960 The secret was more important to her than our medical history. 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:29.560 I mean, I've asked her so many times about different 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:33.119 medical things and she will say nothing on either side 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:41.000 of the family. And she also has embellished her pregnancy 0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:44.080 stories that we never asked to hear through the years, 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:47.399 with lies about how she got pregnant and it was 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:50.879 so easy, this and that. She's told us stories about 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:55.200 cousins she hadn't the past, who are doctors who were 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:59.399 sperm downers when they were medical students. And we've always 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.479 told her we would always want to know the truth 0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:05.880 about anything. We've told her over and over we don't 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.200 like to be in the dark, and she always says, well, 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:10.000 I like to be and we say, but we're not 0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:14.240 you mom. But when we confronted her, she didn't remember 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:16.320 telling us those donor stories are. 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:20.200 So, she claimed, sore you sounded angry at the beginning 0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:23.680 of that conversation with her, were able to express that 0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:26.040 you were angry and upset and hurt and disappointed? 0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:28.719 I told her I was hurt. I told her I 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:32.119 was angry, And at the end of the conversation I 0:27:32.160 --> 0:27:34.320 will say, I said, and do you have anything else 0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:36.320 further that you would like to add to this? And 0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:41.800 she said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I think, to me, 0:27:42.359 --> 0:27:45.200 it was like when you asked a toddler to say 0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:47.800 they're sorry and they're not and they say it. I 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:51.240 really believe she was sorry she got caught. I still 0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:53.480 think that she thinks she did the right thing. 0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:55.800 And Kim, what were you able to express to your 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:57.800 mom in that conversation about how you were feeling. 0:27:58.359 --> 0:27:59.359 She knew I was hurt. 0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:03.840 I was really most worried about her because of her agent. 0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:07.760 I didn't want to upset her. So you know, Sandra 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:12.160 was definitely angry, and I was taking the other role, 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:15.160 like I was feeling bad for Mom and worried about her, 0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:18.960 and so you know, Mom was upset. She just said, 0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:23.080 I'm afraid you won't love me anymore. So I was like, no, 0:28:23.280 --> 0:28:25.399 I love you. I'll always love you, Mom, and I 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:28.040 hugged her, So it's like I was consoling her, but 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:29.919 I was actually really hurting inside. 0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:32.479 And you said you didn't think she knew that, but 0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:35.080 you didn't express it, probably. 0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:37.040 Not as much as I should have. Yeah, that's because 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:39.080 Sandra was pretty angry. 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:41.960 So you felt like she couldn't take the feelings of 0:28:41.960 --> 0:28:43.080 both of you at the same time. 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:44.240 Yeah, I was afraid. 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:47.520 Yeah, at the end of that conversation, she said she 0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:50.880 was sorry in a way that Sandra you didn't feel 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:52.160 was genuine. 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:57.000 I don't really think that she is able to comprehend 0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:04.960 how egregious what she did was, and I don't think 0:29:05.640 --> 0:29:09.520 at her age that she is going to get it. 0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:12.320 We talked for about an hour and a half that day, 0:29:12.440 --> 0:29:14.440 and we've seen her and talked to her a lot 0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:17.880 since then, but not about that. Oh one thing, I 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:20.840 do want to say that I remember my sister did 0:29:21.000 --> 0:29:23.040 one more time. You did talk to her about the 0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:27.120 next day, and she asked her, weren't you worried that 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:31.920 we could maybe accidentally date one of our brothers. I mean, 0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.240 my sister has a lot of brothers. Oh, that's right. 0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:38.560 I did say that to her, right, I forgot about that. 0:29:38.840 --> 0:29:41.880 She said it never crossed their minds because I have 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:43.760 a lot of siblings. We all grew up in the 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:47.560 same city, and these are only the ones who've done 0:29:47.720 --> 0:29:50.400 the DNA tests. There could be dozens more of us 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:53.840 out there, so she was nu. It never crossed her 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:57.600 mind that we would possibly meet and eat someone who 0:29:57.680 --> 0:30:00.600 had seen biological father as us, which is very dangerous. 0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:03.239 Did she explain that the reason that they did it 0:30:03.320 --> 0:30:05.360 was because your father was infertile? 0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:08.320 We did at the time was a point of shame 0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:11.480 for a lot of men, and that's probably related to 0:30:11.520 --> 0:30:14.520 why that was a secret. I'm curious though about the 0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:16.120 fact you said the next day you had a bit 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:18.320 more of the conversation, but since then, You've seen her 0:30:18.440 --> 0:30:22.719 multiple times and this hasn't come up. So since then, 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:27.959 everyone's pretending like everything's okay. How come you don't have 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:30.920 to go in there with guns blazing or with guilt bombs. 0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:35.000 But to sweep it under the rug so quickly and 0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:37.640 to pretend that now all is well when that this 0:30:37.840 --> 0:30:41.040 isn't the thing you're thinking about all the time seems 0:30:41.080 --> 0:30:44.160 a little unusual, and I'm curious about why you're doing that. 0:30:45.200 --> 0:30:49.000 I could say for me, I am never like this, 0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:52.400 and it is only in this instance that I've been 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:55.920 like this because of her aid. But the other reason 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:59.080 is I don't think I'll be able to get thurther her. 0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:03.880 She doesn't under understand how knowing this could have changed 0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:07.360 the trajectory of our lives. And she can't give me 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:11.600 those years back of my life walking around not knowing 0:31:11.640 --> 0:31:14.200 who I really was. You know, when you asked about 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:21.240 our childhood before, we were never alotted that much. I mean, 0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:24.760 we were both straight A students. I probably would have 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:29.000 made different choices. I know this might sound a little strange, 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:31.920 but if I had known that my father was a doctor, 0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:35.160 I might have had a little bit more self esteem 0:31:35.200 --> 0:31:38.840 and confidence in myself that I didn't have as a 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:42.480 seventeen year old. I didn't have until much later in life. 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:45.320 So I feel like I don't even want to go 0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:47.880 into it with her anymore, even though yes, we are 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:52.160 taking the hit personally to ourselves by not addressing it 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:52.880 with her again. 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:55.880 You said that had you known this as young women, 0:31:56.520 --> 0:31:59.040 you think the trajectory of your lives would have been different. 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:01.480 About what you imagine? 0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:06.520 Well, what I imagine is I had a half scholarship 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:12.200 to many private schools on the East Coast, and I 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:15.560 didn't use them because it would have been a financial 0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.480 burden to take out loans for the other half. I 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:22.680 got my BA early and went on later to work 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:25.800 in media and to be a teacher. But if I 0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:30.200 had known this at seventeen, or even at twenty three, 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:34.320 when my father who raised us past, I think I 0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:37.600 probably would have made different choices. I probably would have 0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:39.800 taken out the loans and gone to one of the 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:40.720 private schools. 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:43.040 How would knowing these things have made you want to 0:32:43.400 --> 0:32:44.240 do something different? 0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:47.640 Because I think I would have had more self esteem, 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:52.320 I would have felt more confidence biologically, and I always 0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:56.360 felt different. Like I said, not only you know people 0:32:56.400 --> 0:32:58.920 telling us, We look different, we act different, and just 0:33:00.360 --> 0:33:05.360 nothing made one hundred percent sense to me. Now things 0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:09.280 are making sense, even though it's really sad to find 0:33:09.320 --> 0:33:10.400 it out at this age. 0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:14.120 Can I ask how your father died when it sounds 0:33:14.120 --> 0:33:15.000 like he was rather young. 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:18.440 Yeah, he died of a heart attack in his early fifties. 0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:23.560 And again their medical issues have come up before and 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:26.280 she always said nothing on either side. And you know, 0:33:26.400 --> 0:33:29.600 doctor recently gave me a hard stressed test a little 0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:33.280 worried because my father died so young of a heart attack. 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:35.800 So just another example. 0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:39.800 And Kim for you whether it also thoughts about whether 0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:42.600 your life would have been different had you known this earlier. 0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:46.320 I do agree with Sandra that I would have had 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:50.680 higher self esteem. My mother definitely did not praise us, 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:55.040 and she criticized us a lot and did not encourage 0:33:55.120 --> 0:34:01.040 us to pursue career. And just knowing that my biological 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:05.200 father was a doctor would have definitely given me more confidence. 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.040 These feelings that you have toward your mother about not 0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:10.680 telling you earlier, do you also have them toward your 0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:11.920 father for not telling you. 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:15.640 I don't have any bad feelings towards my father at 0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:16.319 all about it. 0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:17.560 How come. 0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:19.880 I would have been. 0:34:19.840 --> 0:34:22.759 Quite young to handle this type of information. I was 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:25.279 only twenty one when he passed, so I feel like 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:26.160 he's off the hook. 0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:28.959 So you're saying you would have liked to have had 0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:32.560 this secret throughout your whole childhood, because my understanding earlier 0:34:32.680 --> 0:34:35.480 was that you wanted to know when you were younger. 0:34:35.800 --> 0:34:39.040 But now you're saying you don't feel like you could 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:40.680 have handled the information at twenty one. 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:42.919 I'm saying as a child, I wouldn't have been able 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:43.480 to handle it. 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.120 What about you, Sandra, would you have liked to have 0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:47.120 known when you were growing up? 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:52.080 Yes? Absolutely, I would have liked to have known, probably 0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:54.960 by junior high or high school, and certainly by the 0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:57.840 time I was going into college a month after I 0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:02.080 turned seventeen, or last chance, how about a little bit 0:35:02.120 --> 0:35:06.239 after he passed at twenty three. Absolutely, I absolutely would 0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:07.000 have wanted to have known. 0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:10.080 So I'm wondering for you, do you feel any of 0:35:10.120 --> 0:35:13.640 that anger towards your father because both of them made 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:15.000 this decision together. 0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:17.440 A little bit, It's like I even give them a 0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:22.319 pass for the sixties and the early seventies because of 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.000 the reading I've done and the time I knew that 0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:28.320 that was what was done, even though it certainly wasn't 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:34.080 morally or ethically right. But I don't give him a 0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:37.360 full pass. He gets much more of a pass because 0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:42.200 he died thirty eight years ago, but I do hold 0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:43.880 him partially responsible. 0:35:44.239 --> 0:35:48.200 So you've had many decades each of you to develop 0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:52.319 your identity, your sense of self, your narrative about who 0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:56.520 you are in the world. How has this changed that. 0:35:56.920 --> 0:35:59.200 Is that something you're talking about together or is that 0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:01.400 something you're trying to process separately. 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:04.839 I would say I'm processing it separately. I have been 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:08.040 talking with a therapist about it because it's been just 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.719 having the rug pulled out from underneath my childhood. I'm 0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:16.080 replaying a lot of scenarios now and they're all sounding 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:19.000 different than having more memories of things that were said 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:23.800 or not said. So I have a lot of grief processing, 0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:28.719 you know, what was lost, what was untrue, what I 0:36:28.840 --> 0:36:31.800 might have done differently. So I've been reading and talking 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:35.000 with a therapist besides Kim to try to process it. 0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:39.240 But the other grief that I have is the grief 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:43.799 about my mom. I'm so sorry that she put me 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:48.840 in this position, that this is going to forever change 0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:51.680 the memories and the relationship I have with her while 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:54.400 she's still alive, and it's going to change how I 0:36:54.440 --> 0:36:58.000 look back on her. And that makes me very sad 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:02.000 to know that the one person that I thought that 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:06.759 I could trust betrayed me with the biggest betrayal that 0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:11.480 I think that she probably could have forgone. It's not 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:15.399 that she's not good to me in other ways, And 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:18.040 I know, Laurie, you always say two things can be 0:37:18.120 --> 0:37:19.520 true at the same time. 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:22.200 When we talk about two things can be true at 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:27.400 the same time, what I think about is that she 0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:33.960 tried to protect you and it came off as harming you, 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:37.120 and she did not and does not see that. So 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:40.160 it's one thing for her to think I'm protecting them 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:43.440 this whole time, But it's another thing when the daughters say, actually, 0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:45.719 that didn't protect us. And I think that's where your 0:37:46.000 --> 0:37:50.160 anger is mostly focused. They think there's a double betrayal. 0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:53.600 There's the first betrayal of we weren't told, and then 0:37:53.640 --> 0:37:56.439 the second betrayal is and when we bring this to light, 0:37:56.880 --> 0:37:59.959 we're told your feelings about this or not valid. 0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:04.920 I would say so, And even if that's what she 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.719 and other parents were told in the sixties and seventies, 0:38:08.800 --> 0:38:12.400 and that they were protecting us we're grown adults. I 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:16.120 think somewhere in there the switch to protect her reputation, 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:19.239 to protect this pact which is with my dad, which 0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:22.760 as far as I'm concerned, was null and void within 0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:25.560 several months after he died thirty eight years ago. In 0:38:25.640 --> 0:38:29.799 my mind, she owed that loyalty to us to let 0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:32.759 us know our identity, So I think it turned from 0:38:32.840 --> 0:38:34.719 protecting us to protecting her. 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:37.480 Sandra, I think you're right. And after he passed was 0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:39.719 also a different era and people were thinking about these 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:42.680 things differently, And the fact that she wouldn't tell you 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:46.120 then is to protect her, but also to protect him, 0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:49.200 And that's also another film of betrayal, that their needs 0:38:49.680 --> 0:38:50.640 superseded yours. 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:53.720 I don't know why she said some of the things 0:38:53.719 --> 0:38:56.880 she said. Was it kind of funny to her telling 0:38:56.960 --> 0:39:00.840 us about doctor cousins who donated while they were in 0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:03.799 med school and now saying, oh, I never said that, 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:08.160 Or making up stories about her pregnancies and which were 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:10.080 obviously total wies. 0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:14.400 My guess, Sandra, is that she wasn't able to really 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:16.880 get in touch with her own feelings about the fact 0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:20.640 that she was keeping this secret that she felt because 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:23.960 at the time, doctors would say, don't tell. That was 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:27.280 the instruction that they gave to parents. Don't tell. Pretend 0:39:27.320 --> 0:39:32.719 this didn't happen. So she probably, outside of her awareness, 0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:35.719 had some mixed feelings about all of this. It was 0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:38.839 hard to hold all of that secret on her own, 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:42.560 very hard to hold such a big secret with just 0:39:42.719 --> 0:39:45.440 your husband, and they probably never talked about it because 0:39:45.680 --> 0:39:48.680 there was so much shame around it. And I imagine 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:53.040 these things leaked out not because she was consciously trying 0:39:53.080 --> 0:39:56.759 to do anything, but because this is something she was 0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.759 thinking about, and they came out in inappropriate ways. She 0:39:59.840 --> 0:40:05.200 was able to buy herself contain this huge secret that 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:07.799 she lived with. By the way every day when she 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:10.279 wasn't in denial, so she'd be in denial for most 0:40:10.280 --> 0:40:12.439 of the time, and then she'd have a little leak 0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:15.279 in the denial mechanism and something would come out, and 0:40:15.280 --> 0:40:17.680 then she'd go back in, like a turtle putting its 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:19.399 head out and then going back in its shell. 0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:22.720 Secrets often leak in that way. But I think you've 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:26.440 yet to get to the point where you're really focusing 0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:30.160 on your identity, on what it does or doesn't change 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:33.359 for you on how you're feeling about yourself in any 0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:35.920 ways that are different or not. And I think that 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:41.080 they're stages to dealing with shocking news, and they unfold 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:43.799 one at a time, often with some overlap. But I 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:46.480 think that this is still very early for you, and 0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:48.799 so you're very much pre occupied with the secret, with 0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:52.759 the lies, with the relationship, and I'm suggesting that to 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:55.880 come is going to be some work you're going to 0:40:55.880 --> 0:40:58.920 have to do about that sense of identity and what 0:40:59.040 --> 0:41:02.720 it changed. Have you talked about whether it changes anything 0:41:02.880 --> 0:41:04.640 in your relationship with sisters? 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:08.880 Yes, I could say that that is a benefit because 0:41:09.280 --> 0:41:12.000 we've always gone along, but we've always been very different 0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:14.120 from each other, and now we kind of know why. 0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:20.680 But it's made us closer because who else could have 0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:24.960 such a crazy secret held for so many years from 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:29.879 them by their mother, So in that way it's made 0:41:29.960 --> 0:41:33.319 us closer. And I too, have talked with some of 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:37.800 the half siblings, an a nephew, and they've been great 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:39.839 and we plan to meet up. 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:43.600 But sometimes, is there any relief in finally having an 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:47.759 answer to these questions that have been percolating in you 0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:51.479 for so long about why you felt different or why 0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:52.960 you felt that something wasn't right. 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:56.520 I guess there is some relief. That's a good point. 0:41:56.800 --> 0:42:00.160 I guess there is, But concurrently there is also so 0:42:00.280 --> 0:42:05.279 a lot of grief and anger. But yeah, relief and 0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:06.720 grief at once. 0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:11.120 It sounds like both of your biological fathers passed away 0:42:11.280 --> 0:42:13.560 before you got this information. Is that right? 0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:17.760 I don't know about mine. Santra doesn't know her father. 0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:23.280 I don't know if he's alive. He'd be probably ninety ish, 0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:27.600 so he hasn't been found. I've been looking. I've written many, 0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:31.719 many emails to people on twenty three ae meters, and 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:36.640 I haven't been able to find a link to the donors. 0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:41.120 I guess they call it social family. The only people 0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:45.279 I've spoken with are half siblings, so I haven't had 0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:47.359 success in that way, and I don't know if I'll 0:42:47.360 --> 0:42:49.839 ever find the link. I'd love to find the link, 0:42:49.920 --> 0:42:54.000 whether he's alive or not. My sister has a very 0:42:54.000 --> 0:42:55.359 different story on that end. 0:42:55.719 --> 0:42:58.560 Was that like for you, Sandra, to watch Kim be 0:42:58.600 --> 0:43:03.600 able to read letters from her biological father and have 0:43:04.160 --> 0:43:05.480 a lot more information than you do. 0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.960 I'm happy for her. I wish I would have the 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:13.440 same experience I have to accept I may never so 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:17.080 it's sad for me. I very well may never have 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:20.040 that experience, and I wish I did, but I may 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:20.799 never have it. 0:43:21.000 --> 0:43:23.480 A lot of different emotions, but certainly the grief and 0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:25.279 the loss is one of them. 0:43:25.440 --> 0:43:27.799 That's true. I know you asked my sister if she 0:43:27.880 --> 0:43:32.360 looked like her dad. I found that I physically resemble 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:35.920 a couple of my half siblings a lot, and seeing 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:39.200 that for the first time, they sent me pictures and 0:43:39.520 --> 0:43:44.480 it was really startling. I knew I looked nothing like 0:43:44.560 --> 0:43:48.759 my father's family, and I thought I look like my 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:52.239 mom's family. I look a little bit like them, way 0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:57.960 more like my father's family, And it was just startling 0:43:58.040 --> 0:43:59.600 to see you've seen. 0:43:59.640 --> 0:44:01.600 When you saying it's just startling, there was a real 0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:04.160 sadness there in your eyes. 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:04.719 Yeah. 0:44:04.719 --> 0:44:08.720 It just brings back the whole lie, my whole life, 0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:12.640 not being able to know the truth when I always 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:15.799 felt something was amiss and I didn't know what, and 0:44:16.120 --> 0:44:18.640 seeing that really brought it to light. 0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:20.239 Seeing their pictures, like. 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:24.080 Wow, right, when you see a resemblance to a sibling 0:44:24.200 --> 0:44:27.360 you didn't know you had, brings back so many moments 0:44:27.440 --> 0:44:31.480 of that doubt, and so many historical moments of feeling 0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:35.840 something very strongly and not having the validation for it correct. 0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:39.640 You mentioned him the question of so what do we 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.840 do visa vir Dad's family and our cousins. Do we 0:44:42.920 --> 0:44:44.839 tell them or do we not tell them? Let's start 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:47.160 with what you want to do, and then we'll get 0:44:47.200 --> 0:44:50.360 to what the concerns might be. But what would you 0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:51.560 like to do each of you? 0:44:52.400 --> 0:44:54.600 I would like to tell them because I'm close with 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:56.320 them and I don't want to keep this from them. 0:44:56.719 --> 0:45:01.000 I feel like by omitting it, I'm lying in a way. 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:02.880 If I would see them and speak to them and 0:45:02.920 --> 0:45:04.959 they say what's new, and I say nothing much, what's 0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:05.480 new with you? 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:10.240 I feel like it's a lie that would be And Soandra, 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:14.000 I would like to tell them also, But you know 0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:17.560 my mother sat there at that day saying, don't tell them, 0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:19.799 don't tell them. That's why I didn't tell you. 0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:22.160 What does she think will happen if they find out? 0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:26.719 I have no idea, But you haven't asked, right. There's 0:45:26.760 --> 0:45:29.319 a really interesting message that goes on here, which is 0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:32.319 we want to keep everything in the open. We're people 0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:35.120 who bring things up. We don't like it when things 0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:40.640 are hidden, and yet we don't actually have these conversations. 0:45:41.480 --> 0:45:43.840 We don't ask our mother, well, why what do you 0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:46.480 think would happen if we told the cousins. We don't 0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:49.839 say all the things that we're thinking or ask all 0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:54.239 the questions that we're wondering about. How do you think 0:45:54.280 --> 0:45:56.960 about that? On the one hand, you feel like you're 0:45:56.960 --> 0:45:58.640 people who are very open, and on the other hand, 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:00.600 your people who are very afraid things up. 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:04.279 That's a really good question for Kim. I always had 0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:06.600 a fear of my mother growing up. 0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:11.560 She you know, instilled in me, you know, to do 0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:13.799 certain things, don't do certain things, and like, I never 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:17.120 wanted to anger her, even now at my age, and 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:19.719 she tells me, don't tell your cousins, I'm like, okay, 0:46:20.120 --> 0:46:20.879 as opposed to. 0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:23.239 Why, except Kim, of the two of you, you're the 0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:25.920 one who said I'd like to tell them, and Sandra 0:46:26.080 --> 0:46:28.200 was the one who said, I'm really torn, right. 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:31.040 What would she do? Like, how would she react when 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:32.759 you were a kid? What was the thing that was 0:46:32.760 --> 0:46:34.799 so scary about her that you were afraid of her? 0:46:34.920 --> 0:46:37.680 Oh, she would just disapprove of me. She'd scream at me, 0:46:37.800 --> 0:46:40.480 she'd hit me, I just was petrified. 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:42.440 What's an example of that where she would hit you 0:46:42.719 --> 0:46:44.880 or she would scream at you. Can you recall an 0:46:44.880 --> 0:46:46.560 incident I don't know, just when we. 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:49.640 Were little, And I don't think Sandra and I were 0:46:49.680 --> 0:46:53.720 bad kids in any way, but we'd be very afraid 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:57.360 and she comes, you know, towards us, and we'd be like, 0:46:57.400 --> 0:46:59.240 oh no, no, no, and we tried to lock ourselves 0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:01.240 in our bedroom sash, she couldn't open the door. 0:47:01.719 --> 0:47:03.800 And you were really scared of her. Then, can you 0:47:03.800 --> 0:47:06.680 remember an example of something you did that triggered that 0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:09.480 anger from her, that the specific incident that you can 0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:10.120 tell us about. 0:47:11.040 --> 0:47:11.920 No, not really. 0:47:12.280 --> 0:47:14.640 She just seemed angry all the time, which is odd 0:47:14.680 --> 0:47:17.279 because she'll say that when we were little girls, it 0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:19.680 was the happiest time in her life. But I only 0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:21.720 remember her being angry at us. 0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:24.359 What about your dad? Were you afraid of him? 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:25.359 No? 0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:29.120 And I know Santra and I have different different experiences 0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:32.080 with this. We have discussed this. I just remember having 0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:34.399 a great relationship with my father. I don't remember him 0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:38.040 ever yelling at me or hitting me or disapproving of me. 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:42.800 It was just from my mom. And Sandra remembers both. 0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:47.759 What do you remember, Sandra, I remember my dad differently. 0:47:48.360 --> 0:47:52.280 By and large, the relationship was okay, we got along 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:57.640 well in certain ways. But I do remember that I 0:47:57.680 --> 0:48:01.480 got hit as a kid by him, you know. And 0:48:01.760 --> 0:48:05.360 again I'm not excusing it, but I do know that 0:48:05.400 --> 0:48:07.200 it was more common at that time. 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:10.359 Are you talking about he would spank you with the. 0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:15.480 Strap for being quote bad? And again I have a 0:48:15.520 --> 0:48:20.160 little bit different experience. And I remember him once when 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:22.200 I was a teen, telling me I was like an 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:23.719 albatross around his neck. 0:48:24.280 --> 0:48:25.720 Do you know what prompted that comment? 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:31.279 I don't remember. And again, compared to most teens, it's 0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:33.560 a pretty good kid. You know. I was a really 0:48:33.600 --> 0:48:38.960 good kid, So I would say that, I guess even 0:48:40.760 --> 0:48:44.680 during childhood and certainly later on in adulthood, my sister 0:48:44.880 --> 0:48:48.680 was definitely the quote favorite, and even though she might 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:52.080 still be afraid of our mom, I would say she 0:48:52.320 --> 0:48:55.439 was the favorite. I still would hear like about once 0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:59.239 a once twice a year. Now event she made betterfe choices, 0:48:59.520 --> 0:49:03.600 and you know, I got divorced. It wasn't a good marriage. 0:49:03.920 --> 0:49:07.120 But my sister, you know, was always smarter in the 0:49:07.120 --> 0:49:10.640 way that she made better choices. And now I feel like, wow, Mom, 0:49:11.480 --> 0:49:13.840 she turns out to have made the worst choice of 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:18.720 all here by not telling us about our identity, isn't 0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:20.839 lying and betraying us. 0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:24.600 In every family, there are stories this child is like this, 0:49:24.600 --> 0:49:27.040 this child is like this. People get labeled, they get 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:30.879 stories around them, and then these narratives as children kind 0:49:30.920 --> 0:49:34.640 of seep in and we internalize them, and when they 0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:38.400 continue into adulthood, it's very hard to change the narrative. 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:41.799 For example, a different narrative around divorces. I made a 0:49:41.800 --> 0:49:46.000 really good choice by ending that marriage. I made a 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:48.759 really good choice in the new partner that I have. 0:49:49.239 --> 0:49:50.759 I made a really good choice in the way that 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:55.480 I parent. So there's lots of stories you can tell 0:49:55.880 --> 0:50:00.160 around that one issue. But the story that you're still 0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:03.560 fighting with her about is that you make bad choices 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:07.319 and that Kim makes better choices. And I think that 0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:10.120 when we talk about what this new story that has 0:50:10.160 --> 0:50:12.920 come into your lives, the story of the person that 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:15.359 we grew up with is not our biological father and 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:19.680 we have different fathers, there's an opportunity, I think, as 0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:23.279 you're getting clear on what the accurate story is to 0:50:23.360 --> 0:50:27.000 make the other stories in your life more accurate too, 0:50:27.120 --> 0:50:29.640 so that you're not walking around with these stories that 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:33.680 are so old and so inaccurate. What was the message Kim, 0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:37.399 that you would get growing up about yourself? Either good one? 0:50:37.719 --> 0:50:38.759 What was your message? 0:50:38.880 --> 0:50:41.200 I was definitely seen as the easier one. 0:50:41.280 --> 0:50:44.879 I didn't give them much trouble purposely, and I knew 0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:48.120 that there was definitely conflict with them in Sandra and 0:50:48.160 --> 0:50:50.880 I'm the younger ones, so I just tried to follow 0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:52.640 all the rules not making trouble. 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:57.040 We were talking earlier about not keeping the secret yourselves, 0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:01.560 of sharing this information with your family that might make 0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:03.480 trouble for your mom. Do you still feel like you 0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:05.480 need to have that role and not making trouble? 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:06.080 Yes? 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:10.680 Exactly why I am torn about saying anything. I don't 0:51:10.719 --> 0:51:11.560 want to anger her. 0:51:11.840 --> 0:51:15.080 So because you keep preferencing her age is almost eighty eight, 0:51:15.160 --> 0:51:17.480 we don't to upset her, et cetera. There's a difference 0:51:17.480 --> 0:51:21.279 between upsetting an eighty eight year old and angering an 0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:24.919 eighty eight year old. Upsetting her is like, oh will 0:51:24.960 --> 0:51:27.680 she be okay? Angering her? Is will I be okay? 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:30.200 And I want to ask which is it? Is it 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:34.759 angering or is it upsetting? It's probably both For you, Soandra. 0:51:34.600 --> 0:51:35.680 It's probably both. 0:51:40.840 --> 0:51:44.279 So Sandra and Kim, we have some advice for you. 0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:47.800 We're thinking about the fact that both of you felt 0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:51.879 so upset about the fact that this secret was kept 0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:54.120 from you for so many years, when it could have 0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:57.399 been really significant to learn earlier. And we know you're 0:51:57.440 --> 0:52:00.920 really struggling with this idea of keeping the sea now 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:03.960 from your cousins who you have a relationship with when 0:52:03.960 --> 0:52:06.200 they're asking you how are you doing? And the biggest 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.520 thing that's happened in many years is something you feel 0:52:08.719 --> 0:52:11.760 you can't talk about. Then that's spilling into a separate 0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:14.440 relationship you have, and we know that makes you uncomfortable. 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:17.640 So we do think you should tell your cousins, and 0:52:17.680 --> 0:52:20.160 we also think you should tell your mom that you're 0:52:20.160 --> 0:52:24.440 going to tell your cousins. However, yes, however, I know 0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:29.160 both of you had that face like, eh, however, fair enough, 0:52:29.239 --> 0:52:31.160 But this is what we want you to tell your mom. 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:35.280 We want you to change your mom's story about what happened, 0:52:35.840 --> 0:52:40.040 because her story is from sixty something years ago. Her 0:52:40.120 --> 0:52:43.520 story is about the mores of the time that they 0:52:43.560 --> 0:52:46.760 did something shameful and they were told by the doctors 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:50.080 not to tell anyone. What would like you to tell 0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:53.600 your mom is mom, Look, we're going to talk to 0:52:53.640 --> 0:52:56.240 our cousins and tell them the truth about what happened, 0:52:56.280 --> 0:52:59.759 because here's how we see that truth. We see that 0:52:59.840 --> 0:53:04.400 you and dad so wanted a family that you were 0:53:04.440 --> 0:53:09.719 willing to do something really brave and something that was 0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:12.720 at the time considered shameful at the time, considered something 0:53:12.760 --> 0:53:17.320 one shouldn't even talk about, but was really brave both 0:53:17.400 --> 0:53:20.760 you and Dad, and you went ahead with this decision. 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:23.400 And then once you did, you were told not to 0:53:23.440 --> 0:53:26.359 tell us, and you held onto that because you were 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:28.160 told at the time it would be better for us 0:53:28.160 --> 0:53:31.359 not to know. And even though we would have loved 0:53:31.400 --> 0:53:33.960 to have known, that's what you were told and you 0:53:34.200 --> 0:53:36.840 kept to it, and Dad took it to his grave, 0:53:37.200 --> 0:53:39.600 and you would have as well, other than the fact 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:44.680 that we found out, But we understand the bravery that took, 0:53:45.000 --> 0:53:48.320 and we know how much you did that to protect 0:53:48.400 --> 0:53:51.480 us because you loved us and you wanted this family 0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:55.400 from before we were born. And that's the story. We 0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:57.920 want to tell our cousins, how brave our mom and 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:00.880 dad were for wanting us so much that they did 0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:05.719 something so so difficult that's the first task. You tell her, 0:54:06.640 --> 0:54:09.400 and then you tell your cousins. Now, she might have 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:12.560 a strong reaction and she say no, I don't want that, 0:54:12.680 --> 0:54:15.359 and then you'll reiterate. You'll say, Mum, you don't want 0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:19.200 it because you think it's shameful. We don't. We're here 0:54:19.280 --> 0:54:22.440 because of that choice, We exist because of that choice. 0:54:22.440 --> 0:54:25.359 We want to celebrate that choice, as difficult as it 0:54:25.440 --> 0:54:26.320 is for us. 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:26.360 For you. 0:54:27.560 --> 0:54:29.520 We want to be proud of you for doing it, 0:54:29.880 --> 0:54:31.719 and we want you to feel proud of yourself for 0:54:31.760 --> 0:54:34.080 having the strength to do it. You'll try and get 0:54:34.120 --> 0:54:36.440 her to change her story, and you should tell your 0:54:36.480 --> 0:54:38.560 cousins regardless. You're letting her know you're doing it. It's 0:54:38.600 --> 0:54:41.239 not a question to her. You're letting her know. But 0:54:41.360 --> 0:54:43.439 if she can change her story just a little bit, 0:54:43.520 --> 0:54:46.719 it might open her up to having more discussions with 0:54:46.760 --> 0:54:48.920 you about it, if she knows that there's a different 0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:49.960 way to think about this. 0:54:50.440 --> 0:54:52.959 And there's this question that you both had about whose 0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:57.319 story is this? And it's everybody's story. But there's this 0:54:57.360 --> 0:55:00.480 famous quote from Carl Jung that secrets are like psychic poison. 0:55:01.000 --> 0:55:03.120 And I think that if you collude with the secret 0:55:03.800 --> 0:55:07.439 you're colluding with the shame, and so given how much 0:55:07.440 --> 0:55:10.480 you wanted to know this information and now that the 0:55:10.520 --> 0:55:13.440 truth is out there, we don't want you to be 0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:17.360 the people colluding with the secret. We want you to 0:55:17.400 --> 0:55:19.759 feel free to share the truth of who you are. 0:55:21.040 --> 0:55:25.920 So that's the first task. The second task, we talked 0:55:25.920 --> 0:55:30.279 a lot about grief and loss and a lot of 0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:33.080 fantasies about what it would have been like had you 0:55:33.160 --> 0:55:37.960 known earlier, the loss of the time, the grief around 0:55:38.000 --> 0:55:41.680 not having been told in time to potentially meet your 0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:49.480 biological fathers, and we would like you to go a 0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:52.000 little bit into that grief because we feel like this 0:55:52.120 --> 0:55:53.759 is very new to both of you and there's a 0:55:53.760 --> 0:55:59.000 lot of anger, but the tender, sad part still hasn't 0:55:59.080 --> 0:56:03.759 really been processing as much. And so we would like 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:08.719 you each to write a letter to your donor and 0:56:08.960 --> 0:56:13.040 say all of the things that you would like to 0:56:13.080 --> 0:56:19.000 have said had you been able to meet them. And 0:56:19.080 --> 0:56:22.160 this is going to bring you straight to the heart 0:56:22.520 --> 0:56:26.120 of your grief and loss in a way that is 0:56:26.200 --> 0:56:29.160 going to really help you get in touch with that, 0:56:29.680 --> 0:56:32.240 because I don't think you'll be able to move through 0:56:33.120 --> 0:56:38.399 this experience if you aren't getting in touch at that 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:43.800 really really tender, deep level with the grief and the loss. 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:46.480 And you were saying earlier, I think, Sandra, you said, 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:49.319 we really should have had the opportunity to get to 0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:53.640 know where we came from. So what would you have 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:56.359 said if you could have gotten to know those men? 0:56:57.760 --> 0:56:59.920 So we'd like you to write those letters, and then 0:57:00.800 --> 0:57:04.239 we would like you to read those letters to each 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:06.919 other so you can be there to support each other, 0:57:08.800 --> 0:57:12.680 and so you can have someone there to witness your 0:57:12.719 --> 0:57:15.120 grief and your loss. And they might be different, so 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:17.280 you went through a similar experience, but we want there 0:57:17.320 --> 0:57:19.640 to be space for you each to process this in 0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:22.120 a way that happens organically for each of you. 0:57:22.640 --> 0:57:26.360 So there's the grief of this, but there are also 0:57:26.520 --> 0:57:31.000 some positive things that happened from it and some potentially 0:57:31.120 --> 0:57:36.840 empowering things that happened from learning what your true story is. 0:57:37.200 --> 0:57:40.280 And you mentioned it brought you in touch with half 0:57:40.320 --> 0:57:44.000 siblings you didn't know. It allowed you to right now 0:57:44.120 --> 0:57:47.720 confront some aspects of your childhood. Would like you each 0:57:47.800 --> 0:57:50.880 to make a list of the ways in which this 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:54.800 experience has been empowering for you individually, and that might 0:57:54.840 --> 0:57:57.400 be different for each of you, But what are the 0:57:57.440 --> 0:58:01.600 ways in which this has enriched your lives and potentially 0:58:01.640 --> 0:58:04.560 could going forward when you think of the future. Make 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:07.520 a list of those different things and describe them, and 0:58:07.520 --> 0:58:09.880 then we'd like you to share that with one another, 0:58:09.960 --> 0:58:14.280 because fundamentally, as sisters, you're going through this together and 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:16.200 this is bringing you close, and that should be one 0:58:16.200 --> 0:58:18.600 of the items on that list. As you mentioned, here 0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:22.040 are the ways in which it's been empowering. Here's how 0:58:22.080 --> 0:58:24.040 I might grow from this. 0:58:24.600 --> 0:58:27.400 And one of the things that happens when we reflect 0:58:27.440 --> 0:58:29.640 on that is we start to make sense of things 0:58:29.640 --> 0:58:32.520 that didn't make sense in the past. So when your father, 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:36.360 Sandra said you were in Albatrass, I imagine that that 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:40.680 was the burden of the secret that was leaking out. 0:58:40.840 --> 0:58:44.280 That you were not the burden, that the secret was 0:58:44.320 --> 0:58:50.920 his burden. People displace their unprocessed thoughts, feelings, emotions, and 0:58:51.040 --> 0:58:53.720 all the things that your mom did. Things are incomprehensible 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:56.000 to both of you, the things that she mentioned about 0:58:56.080 --> 0:58:59.920 adoption and donors, the leaks, all of the leaks on 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:03.000 your list. I hope that you'll both think about how 0:59:03.040 --> 0:59:06.280 having these truths helps you make sense of the past. 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:09.840 In a way that isn't so painful. So some of 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:12.960 the things that were said and done are now in 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:17.640 the context of, oh, they had feelings about this big 0:59:17.680 --> 0:59:20.640 secret that they were holding too. Two people knew about 0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:23.800 the secret and two people didn't. But everybody was feeling 0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:26.919 the burden of the secret. And that does not mean 0:59:26.920 --> 0:59:28.480 that the two of you were burdens. The two of 0:59:28.520 --> 0:59:31.600 you were why they went to such great lengths to 0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:36.400 do this. But when you have a secret, it's going 0:59:36.440 --> 0:59:39.160 to leak out in all kinds of ways that are unhealthy. 0:59:39.960 --> 0:59:41.320 It was all very good advice. 0:59:47.240 --> 0:59:49.440 I'm really glad that the sisters reached out to us, 0:59:49.480 --> 0:59:53.080 and also that they have each other, because the revelation 0:59:53.360 --> 0:59:57.320 of a secret has so many ripple effects, and it 0:59:57.360 --> 1:00:01.040 can feel so isolating and so confusing and so lonely. 1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:03.560 And while they're each going to be on their own 1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:10.040 journey with this, they also have this common moment of discovery. 1:00:10.560 --> 1:00:13.080 And they grew up with the same parents and they're 1:00:13.120 --> 1:00:16.840 dealing with the same kind of family issues around secrecy 1:00:17.080 --> 1:00:20.280 and shame and all of the leakage that came out 1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:22.680 over the years that didn't make sense to them that 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:24.680 now is starting to make sense. 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:28.800 I agree, And what I'm glad for is that despite 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:32.200 the fact that they've had different experiences growing up and 1:00:32.720 --> 1:00:36.800 very different experiences now as well, Sondra having much less 1:00:36.800 --> 1:00:40.720 information comparatively, and yet it's been able to bring them 1:00:41.000 --> 1:00:43.000 together and to strengthen their bond. 1:00:43.280 --> 1:00:44.960 And I like how we talked about the both and 1:00:45.120 --> 1:00:48.240 of a situation that there's some relief and freedom that 1:00:48.320 --> 1:00:51.360 comes with I wasn't crazy, I knew something wasn't right, 1:00:52.400 --> 1:00:56.080 and then also all of the reactions that come with 1:00:56.240 --> 1:00:59.000 and what do we do now? Some people are still 1:00:59.080 --> 1:01:01.720 uncomfortable with it. So I'll be really interested to see 1:01:01.720 --> 1:01:03.680 how these assignments go this week for both of them. 1:01:04.160 --> 1:01:13.600 Absolutely, you're listening to DEA Therapists. We'll be back after 1:01:13.600 --> 1:01:28.920 a short break. So, Laurie, we heard from Sandra and Kim, 1:01:28.960 --> 1:01:32.920 and I am so curious to hear how these assignments 1:01:33.000 --> 1:01:33.560 went for them. 1:01:33.960 --> 1:01:37.280 Hi, this is Sandra. We completed our first assignment by 1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:40.280 going to our mother's house. We started out by letting 1:01:40.280 --> 1:01:43.760 her know that we commend her and my father for 1:01:43.880 --> 1:01:47.360 their bravery and let her know we understand that they 1:01:47.520 --> 1:01:51.480 chose to use a donor because they so desperately wanted children. 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:56.720 It did open up more discussion. We told her we 1:01:56.720 --> 1:01:59.120 were going to be letting our cousins know because we 1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:02.400 wouldn't be kolude in the secret. On one hand, I 1:02:02.480 --> 1:02:05.760 thought it went better than I had anticipated, as I 1:02:05.880 --> 1:02:08.280 had been afraid that she would yell at me and 1:02:08.360 --> 1:02:10.840 throw me out of her house when we told her this, 1:02:11.000 --> 1:02:14.600 and she didn't, so I was happy about that. However, 1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:18.600 when we continued to ask her why they kept this 1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:22.000 a secret and why she continued to carry this secret 1:02:22.080 --> 1:02:26.000 for decades after our father died, she just kept stating, 1:02:26.080 --> 1:02:29.280 because that's what we decided to do when you were born. 1:02:29.840 --> 1:02:33.280 When we asked her that now, seeing how much pain 1:02:33.360 --> 1:02:35.640 this has caused us, if she would do it that 1:02:35.720 --> 1:02:38.200 way all over again, if she had the chance to 1:02:38.320 --> 1:02:41.480 change things regarding holding the secret, she said that she 1:02:41.560 --> 1:02:45.560 would do it exactly the same way again. For the 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:49.720 second assignment, writing the letter to my sperm donor father, 1:02:50.440 --> 1:02:54.240 I found it to be cathartic and I was able 1:02:54.280 --> 1:03:00.000 to express a range of emotions, including excitement, grief, and anger. 1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:03.560 I was curious about him and what he looks like 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:08.080 and his personality. His interests is family, is medical history? 1:03:08.440 --> 1:03:11.720 I wanted to know if there are any similarities between us, 1:03:11.760 --> 1:03:14.640 and also if he has ever given thought to how 1:03:14.680 --> 1:03:18.560 many donor children he may have, and if he was 1:03:18.600 --> 1:03:22.840 at all curious about us, About me, I told him 1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:26.160 about myself, about my life, about my children, and let 1:03:26.280 --> 1:03:28.120 him know that it would have meant a lot to 1:03:28.160 --> 1:03:31.840 me if I had known that he existed, even if 1:03:31.880 --> 1:03:34.000 I didn't get to know him, just if I knew 1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:38.720 that he was out there, it would have been beneficial 1:03:38.720 --> 1:03:42.400 to me. I found it empowering to write my list 1:03:42.440 --> 1:03:47.280 of positives regarding this discovery, including the fact that sharing 1:03:47.320 --> 1:03:52.240 this experience has made my sister and me closer, and 1:03:52.360 --> 1:03:56.760 I've gotten to speak with some pretty cool new closely 1:03:56.840 --> 1:04:01.640 related family members that I had known about before. Additionally, 1:04:01.880 --> 1:04:05.360 I think it gives me a sense of relief, as 1:04:05.440 --> 1:04:09.360 it explains why I always felt different, so things finally 1:04:09.480 --> 1:04:14.920 make more sense. I finally know my story. 1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:18.320 Hi, Laurie and guy, this is Kim. I completed my 1:04:18.400 --> 1:04:21.920 assignments and I wanted to give you the update. Sandra 1:04:21.960 --> 1:04:23.880 and I went over to our mom's house to give 1:04:23.880 --> 1:04:27.400 her the new positive narrative of our story. It did 1:04:27.440 --> 1:04:30.120 not go as well as I had hoped Mom was 1:04:30.200 --> 1:04:33.320 kind of closed off, defensive. I told her how brave 1:04:33.400 --> 1:04:35.680 I thought she and Dad were and how much I 1:04:35.720 --> 1:04:38.560 appreciated the lengths they went through to have a family, 1:04:38.840 --> 1:04:42.240 and that I want to celebrate that story. I told 1:04:42.280 --> 1:04:43.920 her that I am very proud of her for what 1:04:43.960 --> 1:04:45.720 she did, and that I want her to be proud 1:04:45.760 --> 1:04:49.880 of herself too and feel no shame. She then said, 1:04:50.360 --> 1:04:54.640 I am proud of myself. I feel no shame. So 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:56.520 I then asked them why did it have to be 1:04:56.560 --> 1:04:59.880 a secret then, and she said, because that's what we do. 1:05:00.120 --> 1:05:00.640 Decided. 1:05:00.880 --> 1:05:04.600 I thought you'd be teased, so I guess she was 1:05:04.640 --> 1:05:07.960 trying to protect us when we were children, but we 1:05:08.000 --> 1:05:11.360 are sixty years old. I then told her that we 1:05:11.400 --> 1:05:13.560 want to feel free to share the truth of who 1:05:13.600 --> 1:05:16.760 we are, so we are telling our cousins the story, 1:05:17.480 --> 1:05:20.920 and she angrily said, go ahead and tell your cousins. 1:05:21.080 --> 1:05:25.120 I don't care. I don't even talk to them. I 1:05:25.160 --> 1:05:27.680 then got up to leave. I gave her a hug 1:05:28.200 --> 1:05:31.400 and told her that I loved her. She then said 1:05:31.840 --> 1:05:36.520 sorry in a harsh tone. I said sorry for what, 1:05:37.640 --> 1:05:41.560 and she had no response. I said sorry that we 1:05:41.600 --> 1:05:46.680 are in pain, and she said yes, writing The letter 1:05:46.720 --> 1:05:49.720 to my biological father to express my grief and loss 1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:53.960 was both cathartic and healing. I also expressed my gratitude 1:05:54.000 --> 1:05:58.000 to him for giving his donation so that I can exist. 1:05:59.160 --> 1:06:01.760 My life is definitely been enriched by this new discovery. 1:06:01.880 --> 1:06:04.600 There are a lot of positives. Sandra and I are 1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:07.200 close to now than we have ever been. We have 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:12.080 definitely bonded over this experience. We had a very meaningful 1:06:12.160 --> 1:06:16.280 and emotional conversation with our cousins, and they were extremely 1:06:16.400 --> 1:06:20.760 comforting and supportive of us and our story. I am 1:06:20.840 --> 1:06:24.200 really looking forward to getting to know and forming relationships 1:06:24.240 --> 1:06:29.440 with my many half siblings. Lastly, Sandra and I finally 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:33.880 feel validated and our lives finally make sense. We always 1:06:33.960 --> 1:06:37.280 knew that something was off growing up, but we didn't 1:06:37.360 --> 1:06:42.200 know what it was. We looked nothing alike, our personalities 1:06:42.240 --> 1:06:46.240 were completely different. Everyone always asked us if we were 1:06:46.280 --> 1:06:53.200 actually full sisters, and now we finally know why. Thank you, 1:06:53.280 --> 1:06:55.320 Laurie and Guy for all of your help and advice. 1:06:55.600 --> 1:06:57.280 We greatly appreciate it. 1:07:01.880 --> 1:07:04.880 I'm glad that they each got back to us separately 1:07:05.320 --> 1:07:07.960 because there was a lot of overlap in their reports, 1:07:07.960 --> 1:07:11.360 but there was also a difference, and the first difference 1:07:11.600 --> 1:07:16.320 was how the mom reacted to the conversation. Sandra said 1:07:16.360 --> 1:07:19.520 that the mom reacted better than she expected. She expected 1:07:19.600 --> 1:07:21.840 the mom would yell at them and throw them out 1:07:21.960 --> 1:07:24.760 of the house, and Kim said that the conversation didn't 1:07:24.760 --> 1:07:27.840 go as well as she had hoped, so that was 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:30.280 interesting just in terms of their expectations. Both of them 1:07:30.320 --> 1:07:33.000 described how when the mom was asked if she would 1:07:33.040 --> 1:07:35.720 do anything differently knowing how much pain holding the secret 1:07:35.800 --> 1:07:40.440 had caused the daughters, that she said she wouldn't and 1:07:40.600 --> 1:07:43.920 I think that they interpreted that as her not seeing 1:07:43.960 --> 1:07:48.360 their pain. But that moment when the mom said sorry, 1:07:48.520 --> 1:07:52.880 even though it was angry, and then Kim said sorry 1:07:52.880 --> 1:07:55.120 that we're in a lot of pain, and the mom 1:07:55.200 --> 1:07:59.240 said yes, you know that there's so much going on 1:07:59.360 --> 1:08:02.320 inside of the mom, and I think it's hard for 1:08:02.360 --> 1:08:04.920 them to see because of their own pain. But I 1:08:04.960 --> 1:08:08.680 felt so much compassion for the whole family when I 1:08:08.760 --> 1:08:11.040 heard that moment and what it took for the mom, 1:08:11.480 --> 1:08:14.320 given how rigid she had been on her position, to 1:08:14.360 --> 1:08:18.439 say sorry and then to acknowledge, yes, I'm sorry that 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:20.040 I put you through this pain. 1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:24.479 I agree. I also had compassion for the mother in 1:08:24.560 --> 1:08:27.720 hearing these voice messages, because when Kim asked her, why 1:08:27.800 --> 1:08:30.320 didn't you tell us when we were adults, the mother 1:08:30.400 --> 1:08:33.320 wasn't able to say, because I had kept a secret 1:08:33.400 --> 1:08:36.559 for so long. It probably would have felt incredibly scary 1:08:36.640 --> 1:08:38.840 to come and admit that I had lied to you 1:08:39.040 --> 1:08:42.439 all your lives and cause you pain. Then. I think 1:08:42.840 --> 1:08:44.960 people at that time came up with all kinds of 1:08:45.040 --> 1:08:49.439 rationalizations for why they had to keep the secret, And 1:08:49.479 --> 1:08:51.959 I think that what Kim and Sandra need to understand 1:08:52.000 --> 1:08:54.920 is that the mom's positions on this are really stuck 1:08:54.960 --> 1:08:58.120 in time. It's possible that if the dad hadn't died 1:08:58.240 --> 1:09:01.000 and they could have processed it to together, there might 1:09:01.000 --> 1:09:03.719 have been some change. But I think after the father 1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:07.120 passed away then it was not just about maintaining the secret, 1:09:07.120 --> 1:09:11.120 but maintaining his secret or his shame in some kind 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:13.200 of way, and that made it very difficult for the 1:09:13.280 --> 1:09:16.360 mother to reconsider how she was handling. 1:09:16.000 --> 1:09:19.000 Things right, because she had to really grapple with this 1:09:19.160 --> 1:09:21.879 on her own, and she was not talking to anybody 1:09:21.920 --> 1:09:24.960 about this because she was the sole keeper of that 1:09:25.040 --> 1:09:27.360 secret at that point. And I think it must have 1:09:27.400 --> 1:09:30.240 felt very difficult for her in ways she doesn't realize 1:09:30.360 --> 1:09:33.760 or can't articulate, except there was an opening there when 1:09:33.760 --> 1:09:37.000 she said sorry and could acknowledge their pain. I know 1:09:37.120 --> 1:09:39.559 that's not enough for them right now, but I hope 1:09:39.560 --> 1:09:41.559 that they take that as an opening. I think there's 1:09:41.600 --> 1:09:44.240 going to be more of that, as the mother sees 1:09:44.280 --> 1:09:48.439 them be very open and comfortable and relieved by being 1:09:48.439 --> 1:09:51.639 able to live their lives with their identity being known. 1:09:51.880 --> 1:09:54.200 The other part I really liked was the letters they 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:57.000 wrote to the donuts, because we asked them to write 1:09:57.040 --> 1:10:00.880 a letter, but they didn't just state things. They said, 1:10:00.960 --> 1:10:03.400 here are the questions I would have asked you, here 1:10:03.400 --> 1:10:05.880 are the things I would have wanted to know. They 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:10.599 were really comprehensive communicating all the feelings they had, all 1:10:10.640 --> 1:10:13.400 the questions they had, all the thoughts they had. They 1:10:13.400 --> 1:10:16.960 were really enumerting the losses and the misses that they 1:10:16.960 --> 1:10:19.880 didn't get to experience, and I think that's what made 1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:20.800 it so cathartic. 1:10:21.080 --> 1:10:23.599 One of the many losses that happened when you keep 1:10:23.600 --> 1:10:27.280 that kind of secret for so long is the loss 1:10:27.439 --> 1:10:32.080 of the ability to have connected with their donors, and 1:10:32.160 --> 1:10:35.320 that is a huge loss, and so I think that 1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:38.680 in these letters they were able to begin the process 1:10:38.840 --> 1:10:41.120 of doing some of that grief work. They were so 1:10:41.280 --> 1:10:45.200 beautiful what they described, and I hope that they'll continue 1:10:45.280 --> 1:10:47.320 to do some of that grief work because there's more 1:10:47.360 --> 1:10:49.360 to do there. But I think this was a really, 1:10:49.439 --> 1:10:52.639 really positive and healing beginning to that. 1:10:53.120 --> 1:10:55.439 And I was very hardened to hear that. When it 1:10:55.479 --> 1:10:59.200 came to looking at what the empowering aspects of this 1:10:59.560 --> 1:11:04.360 were for them, they were so meaningful. First among those 1:11:04.400 --> 1:11:07.880 what it brought them closer as sisters, but it also 1:11:07.920 --> 1:11:10.960 connected them to their cousins in a new kind of 1:11:11.000 --> 1:11:14.320 way that they're excited about. It presented them with all 1:11:14.360 --> 1:11:17.920 these half siblings that they now have relationships with and 1:11:18.000 --> 1:11:20.479 have an option to form relationships with. 1:11:21.320 --> 1:11:22.920 And I think the biggest piece of this is what 1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:25.960 they both said in different ways. Sandra said, I finally 1:11:26.000 --> 1:11:30.240 know my story and Kim said, our lives finally make sense. 1:11:30.840 --> 1:11:33.400 And that's the story that we hear over and over 1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:36.760 when there's been a big family secret, and then when 1:11:36.760 --> 1:11:40.639 you finally get the validation, oh, it makes sense now. 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:43.320 People always wondered if we were sisters or I didn't 1:11:43.320 --> 1:11:45.240 really feel a part of the family in the way 1:11:45.240 --> 1:11:47.599 that I thought I would. Whatever it is, just something 1:11:47.720 --> 1:11:52.679 seemed not right. I finally know my story. Our lives 1:11:52.760 --> 1:11:56.040 finally make sense when we think about the positives of 1:11:56.080 --> 1:11:59.920 this experience despite all the pain, that's the positive right there. 1:12:00.479 --> 1:12:03.080 And I'm so glad that now the mystery has been 1:12:03.120 --> 1:12:06.439 solved and they can move forward knowing the truth and 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:08.200 to feel empowered by that truth. 1:12:08.800 --> 1:12:11.400 And the last thing I think is that by telling 1:12:11.439 --> 1:12:14.360 the mom that they're telling the cousins, and then telling 1:12:14.400 --> 1:12:18.240 the cousins and then having these conversations, that is no 1:12:18.840 --> 1:12:23.160 more secret, and that is an incredible relief. 1:12:26.960 --> 1:12:29.799 Next week, a young woman who's now with a healthy 1:12:29.840 --> 1:12:33.519 partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had 1:12:33.640 --> 1:12:34.480 years ago. 1:12:34.760 --> 1:12:36.800 Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation. 1:12:37.000 --> 1:12:39.519 I don't want to talk about how I had an 1:12:39.560 --> 1:12:42.920 abusive partner for three years of my life. I want 1:12:42.960 --> 1:12:46.000 to forget about it on the outside, but on the inside, 1:12:46.120 --> 1:12:47.320 I can't forget about it. 1:12:47.960 --> 1:12:51.040 If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for 1:12:51.120 --> 1:12:54.000 free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please 1:12:54.040 --> 1:12:56.800 help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it 1:12:56.920 --> 1:13:00.280 and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really 1:13:00.320 --> 1:13:01.479 help people to find the show. 1:13:02.040 --> 1:13:04.280 If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, 1:13:04.560 --> 1:13:09.640 email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. 1:13:09.760 --> 1:13:14.000 Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited 1:13:14.080 --> 1:13:18.719 by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John 1:13:18.880 --> 1:13:23.799 Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily 1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:28.160 Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast 1:13:28.200 --> 1:13:31.519 Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you 1:13:31.560 --> 1:13:42.320 at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio