Speaker 1: I'm Laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where
Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
Speaker 2: we're in session with sisters Sondra and Kim, who discover
Speaker 2: a family secret that their parents held for sixty years.
Speaker 3: I internally just felt like there's something that's not right here.
Speaker 3: We were asked our whole lives if we had the
Speaker 3: same parents. First.
Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Speaker 1: Submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use
Speaker 1: it in part orn full, and we may edit it
Speaker 1: for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All
Speaker 1: names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 2: Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So who do we have visiting
Speaker 2: us this week?
Speaker 1: Well, this week we have two sisters and their names
Speaker 1: are Sandra and Kim, and their letter goes like this,
Speaker 1: Dear therapists, My sister and I very recently found out
Speaker 1: that we are donor conceived through two anonymous donors. She
Speaker 1: is fifty nine and I am sixty one. We found
Speaker 1: out quite accidentally through ancestry and twenty three and meters.
Speaker 1: We have discovered not only that we are half sisters
Speaker 1: from different donors, but that we each have many other
Speaker 1: half siblings and other family members. Our mom, who is
Speaker 1: now eighty seven, never told us and has spent our
Speaker 1: entire lives actively lying about our parentage and our medical history,
Speaker 1: as well as embellishing the stories of her pregnancies. Our father,
Speaker 1: who we grew up with, died thirty eight years ago.
Speaker 1: As you may imagine, finding this out at our ages
Speaker 1: has been extremely upsetting on many levels. We feel entirely
Speaker 1: betrayed by our own mother. Any help you could possibly
Speaker 1: offer would be much appreciated.
Speaker 2: Sondra, Well, here's another one. Of these situations in which
Speaker 2: DNA testing reveals something about people's history that they didn't know.
Speaker 2: And the issue is it really causes a psychological seismic
Speaker 2: shift almost that makes you potentially question so many aspects
Speaker 2: about who you are and so many aspects of your
Speaker 2: relationships here with her mother, probably her father, her sister,
Speaker 2: all these new people in her life. So it's this
Speaker 2: one discovery that can truly be incredibly difficult to process
Speaker 2: and manage and think through. I am glad that we're
Speaker 2: going to be talking to both these sisters, because clearly
Speaker 2: this is something that would be easier for them to
Speaker 2: process together.
Speaker 1: What I think is so interesting is that whenever people
Speaker 1: discover that there's been a secret in the family, it
Speaker 1: does make you question what was real, what was not real.
Speaker 1: And she mentioned that it's very upending to get this
Speaker 1: information at their ages, but I think at any age
Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing where you start to really
Speaker 1: wonder what does this all mean? So I'm really interested
Speaker 1: to talk to them and explore that with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go talk to them.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dea Therapists.
Speaker 1: Hi, Sandra, Hi Kim, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Hi, Hi, thank you for having us our pleasure.
Speaker 2: It's great to have you both. Would like to start
Speaker 2: with a little bit of a snapshot what your lives
Speaker 2: were like before you found this out. So if we
Speaker 2: rewind a few months and I asked you, tell me
Speaker 2: a little bit about your lives, each of you tell
Speaker 2: us and so we have a picture of the context
Speaker 2: within which this happened. Sandra, maybe you can start.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm a teacher. I taught high school for the
Speaker 3: past ten years, and I taught before that. I'm divorced.
Speaker 3: I have a roommate, I have a long distance boyfriend.
Speaker 3: I have two grown daughters in their twenties. They don't
Speaker 3: live with me.
Speaker 1: What about you, Kim, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 4: Happy life. My husband and I are both retired. We
Speaker 4: are empty nesters. We are free to do what we want.
Speaker 1: Everything was going great, and how well are your kids?
Speaker 3: Twenty eight and thirty two.
Speaker 2: Would like to hear a little bit about how this
Speaker 2: was discovered, who found out, how it was communicated to
Speaker 2: the other.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm the one who quite accidentally found out. I
Speaker 3: actually went on Ancestry in twenty sixteen, kind of just
Speaker 3: for fun to see if there was anything interesting. Nothing
Speaker 3: stood out to me really on there, and I actually
Speaker 3: had not been back on Ancestry in years. So I
Speaker 3: went back on and the first person under DNA relative
Speaker 3: I saw was one of my children who did it.
Speaker 3: She comes up as my daughter at fifty percent shared DNA,
Speaker 3: and underneath her there is a man's name who I've
Speaker 3: never seen, who came up as my second closest relative
Speaker 3: at twenty seven percent shared DNA. So of course I
Speaker 3: was a little flipped out. Ancestry, I think, tries to
Speaker 3: soften the blow because they list him as a first cousin.
Speaker 3: At that time, we all looked up what twenty seven
Speaker 3: percent meant, and we saw that means that this person
Speaker 3: is not in fact a first cousin, but a half sibling.
Speaker 3: That this man would be my brother. So I called
Speaker 3: my sister and I asked her if she ever heard
Speaker 3: of this person's name before, you know who is he?
Speaker 3: And she hadn't. And I sent him a message to
Speaker 3: Ancestry and said, hey, I saw you came up at
Speaker 3: twenty seven percent, I don't recognize your name, and he
Speaker 3: immediately messaged me back and said, Hi, here's my cell number.
Speaker 3: Let's discuss.
Speaker 1: So he knew.
Speaker 3: He knew. So at first we thought, oh, this can't
Speaker 3: be right, you know, before we spoke with him, maybe
Speaker 3: he's some secret love child of you know, one of
Speaker 3: my uncles. And then the twenty seven percent just kept
Speaker 3: telling me that's not true. So I went to my
Speaker 3: sister's house and we called him together and talked to
Speaker 3: him for a long time. That's how I first learned
Speaker 3: the true story.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what he said on that phone call?
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, he was very gentle with us. He was
Speaker 3: very very kind, very gregarious. And the first thing he
Speaker 3: asked us was, we're your father and obgyn at the
Speaker 3: Specific hospital in Manhattan, and we said no, why, and
Speaker 3: he said, let me tell you a story. So he
Speaker 3: told us that in twenty twenty, his wife had read
Speaker 3: a book called Inheritance and it was about DNA donors,
Speaker 3: and his wife and his mom were close, and his
Speaker 3: wife told his mom, his ninety plus year old mom,
Speaker 3: about this book, and she confessed, well, actually that's how
Speaker 3: I had my son from a sperm donor, we weren't
Speaker 3: able to have children, and then he proceeded to go
Speaker 3: on ancestry and do his DNA. So he told us
Speaker 3: the story, recommended we read this book, and then he
Speaker 3: started asking us questions about our father, after asking if
Speaker 3: he had been a doctor or an OBGYN residence, because
Speaker 3: that seems to be the pattern with everyone involved with this.
Speaker 3: That's who all the donors are turning out to be
Speaker 3: from this one specific hospital in this time period.
Speaker 2: They were all residents at the hospital at the time,
Speaker 2: and that's why they were donating.
Speaker 3: They were all OBGYN residents in the fifties and sixties.
Speaker 3: And we said, no, he wasn't. So he just said,
Speaker 3: here's what I think you two should do, twenty three
Speaker 3: and me because that's where all of the other half
Speaker 3: siblings are. Just he also happened to be on both sites,
Speaker 3: and you're going to find out all these names on there,
Speaker 3: and he gave us a list of names, who, of
Speaker 3: course all turned out to be my half siblings and
Speaker 3: some of their children. Oh, and then he told us
Speaker 3: that his best guess is that the two of us
Speaker 3: are going to turn out to be half sisters and
Speaker 3: not full sisters.
Speaker 1: What was that like. When he said that might be
Speaker 1: the case, and Kim.
Speaker 2: Would like to hear from you.
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe at all that this story could be true.
Speaker 4: I thought maybe he was a love child from my
Speaker 4: father and his mother. But I thought, there's no way
Speaker 4: we're from donors. Our mother would have told us that
Speaker 4: there is not a chance that could be true. And
Speaker 4: then when he kept saying that it is true, I thought, well, okay,
Speaker 4: perhaps Sandra is from a donor, but I truly believe
Speaker 4: that I was from the man who raised me. And
Speaker 4: so when he said that you're going to be from
Speaker 4: different fathers and they're going to be different donors, I thought,
Speaker 4: no way.
Speaker 3: My father definitely was My father.
Speaker 1: Was the reason that you felt that this was definitely
Speaker 1: your father because you had a closer relationship with him
Speaker 1: than Sandra did.
Speaker 4: I think I felt closer to him. I also felt
Speaker 4: closer to his family. And if this story was true,
Speaker 4: that meant my grandmother wasn't my biological grandmother, My aunts
Speaker 4: weren't my biological aunts, My cousins weren't my biological cousins.
Speaker 4: Like I could not believe any of that. We were
Speaker 4: very close growing up. We grew up within five minutes
Speaker 4: of now. We saw them every week. There's no way
Speaker 4: that this story could be true.
Speaker 1: Sandra, What was your relationship like with your father?
Speaker 3: I had a pretty good relationship with my father. I
Speaker 3: mean it had its ups and downs. Well, I think
Speaker 3: I probably felt more like the black sheep of the family.
Speaker 3: I always felt different growing up. I internally just just
Speaker 3: felt like there's something that's not right here. Besides the
Speaker 3: superficial that the two of us don't look like, we're
Speaker 3: also very different from each other. And I felt different
Speaker 3: from my father's family, even though they were very good
Speaker 3: to us and kind to us, something just always felt off.
Speaker 3: We were asked our whole lives if we had the
Speaker 3: same parents. Yeah, we do, Well, you don't look alike
Speaker 3: and you're so different from each other. I mean it
Speaker 3: even went as far as my sister used to ask
Speaker 3: my mom if she was adopted. Yes, I did.
Speaker 2: Why Kim, did you ask that question? Because you're saying
Speaker 2: you felt really close to your father on his side
Speaker 2: of the family. Were you feeling differently regarding your mom?
Speaker 4: Because I didn't look like anyone, and so I kept thinking,
Speaker 4: am I adopted?
Speaker 3: I'm not adopted? Right?
Speaker 4: And then she would say no, of course you're not adopted.
Speaker 4: So I was like, oh, okay, but I knew something
Speaker 4: was off.
Speaker 1: This is what happens when there are secrets in a family.
Speaker 1: We hear this all the time, that people always know
Speaker 1: that something is off. That's the phrase that you just used,
Speaker 1: and that's the phrase we always hear something was off.
Speaker 1: I couldn't put my finger on it, but I knew
Speaker 1: that there was something that I just couldn't articulate that
Speaker 1: didn't feel as it seemed.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
Speaker 2: So, Kim, this man is telling you be prepared. You
Speaker 2: might only be half sisters tell us what happened from them.
Speaker 4: So then I went to do the twenty three ye
Speaker 4: ME test. I ordered it immediately and you know, waited
Speaker 4: anxiously for those results. And when they came in, I
Speaker 4: was completely shocked. Even though I was told to be prepared,
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: What were the results.
Speaker 3: The results were.
Speaker 4: That I also was from a donor and not the
Speaker 4: same one as my sister. And when I opened up
Speaker 4: the results at the first person he comes up in
Speaker 4: order of how much DNA you share, And this person
Speaker 4: comes up at the very top and it says fifty
Speaker 4: percent share DNA, this is your father, has his name
Speaker 4: Robert and his picture, and I just gasped.
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: What happened when you saw not only his name but
Speaker 1: his picture.
Speaker 3: I was just in shock.
Speaker 2: Were there any similarities you saw in the image that
Speaker 2: made you feel like, oh, maybe this is my father
Speaker 2: or did it feel like, no, this man is not.
Speaker 2: Like how much did it resonate that this person actually
Speaker 2: is your biological father?
Speaker 3: It felt like it was not.
Speaker 2: So there was a resistance to it, to that notion.
Speaker 2: Even though the DNA is there at fifty percent, it
Speaker 2: just doesn't feel real.
Speaker 4: Yes, when I opened up my results, I figured I'm
Speaker 4: going to see someone on there from my father's side
Speaker 4: of the family who maybe just did the test and
Speaker 4: never told me they did. That's what I was expecting
Speaker 4: to see. And he came up at the top at
Speaker 4: fifty percent, and then underneath a whole bunch of half
Speaker 4: siblings came up at like twenty five percent.
Speaker 2: When you say a whole bunch and Soandra, you also
Speaker 2: said there was a list of were talking two or three,
Speaker 2: were talking, five, six, ten, Like give us a sense
Speaker 2: of how many people now, yeah, for me it's about
Speaker 2: ten and Sondra.
Speaker 3: For you, I think it's about four or five. And
Speaker 3: some obvious nephews or nieces came up also. I'm sure
Speaker 3: there or more out there and they just haven't been
Speaker 3: discovered yet. But what was really shocking to me was
Speaker 3: when I did twenty three and meters afterwards also at
Speaker 3: the same time, and we're talking just about two months ago,
Speaker 3: and to open my account and to see my sister Kim,
Speaker 3: who I grew up with, with her picture and her name,
Speaker 3: to say half sister, even though I knew it was
Speaker 3: going to come up, it was shocking. It was jarring.
Speaker 4: Yes, I felt the same way to see that she's
Speaker 4: twenty five percent and so are all of these strangers.
Speaker 2: What were those first conversations like between the two of
Speaker 2: you once that confirmation came in and you knew at
Speaker 2: least what you were dealing with.
Speaker 3: She called me and I was actually with one of
Speaker 3: my daughters in the car, and we were in shock.
Speaker 3: I mean, we started from shocking, disbelief and anger, grief.
Speaker 3: I'm mostly in grief in the grief part, trying to
Speaker 3: accept now, but we're angry and angry at our mother.
Speaker 3: Very disappointed, and for you, Kim, after shock, I also
Speaker 3: felt to anger because how could she not tell me?
Speaker 3: And the truth is I gave her.
Speaker 4: Every opportunity because after Sandra got the result from ancestry
Speaker 4: and knew that she had a half sibling, and he
Speaker 4: had told me that this probably was going to be
Speaker 4: my story as well, I thought, Okay, I'm going to
Speaker 4: tell my mother that I'm going to do twenty three
Speaker 4: and me, I told her, well, we want to find
Speaker 4: out about our health. But I said, and also, I
Speaker 4: think it's so interesting. They give you all of the ancestors,
Speaker 4: They tell you everybody who you are related to, and
Speaker 4: the present of DNA you share, and they will say
Speaker 4: what relationship they are to you. She had a cousin
Speaker 4: years ago who took probably years to draw out a
Speaker 4: whole family tree, and I said, in the family tree
Speaker 4: will just pop up on the computer. So this way
Speaker 4: she knew exactly what I would find out. So I thought,
Speaker 4: if this story is true, I'm giving her now until
Speaker 4: I get my results, three to four weeks for her
Speaker 4: to come clean, because I wanted to hear it from her.
Speaker 3: And not from a computer, not from a stranger. And
Speaker 3: she did not come through for me.
Speaker 1: Is there a reason that in that conversation instead of
Speaker 1: testing her to see if she would come clean to you,
Speaker 1: was there a reason that you didn't want to say
Speaker 1: to her, Hey, mom, Sandra did this DNA test. This
Speaker 1: is what she found. I'm now doing a DNA test.
Speaker 1: Is there something that we don't know?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 4: I think part of it was I was thinking perhaps
Speaker 4: my father was the donor, and I thought, what if
Speaker 4: she doesn't know that, And so I figured I'll just
Speaker 4: throw it out there, see what she says. But she
Speaker 4: didn't say anything. So then I thought, I'm not sure
Speaker 4: what's going on, and perhaps he really was my biological father.
Speaker 1: When you say she didn't say anything, what did she
Speaker 1: actually say?
Speaker 4: She mentioned about the health. She said, Oh, I don't
Speaker 4: know why you would want to know that beforehand. I
Speaker 4: like to be in the dark.
Speaker 1: So she did say something. When you said she said nothing,
Speaker 1: she was actually trying to dissuade you from getting the
Speaker 1: information because she knew what would come up.
Speaker 4: Probably yeah, But she just said, you know, she likes
Speaker 4: to be in the dark about everything.
Speaker 1: She was hoping you would not take the DNA test.
Speaker 2: Probably, So tell us what happened once you have those results.
Speaker 2: How did you decide when to speak to her, how
Speaker 2: to talk to her. We'd like to hear how that
Speaker 2: went down.
Speaker 3: Well. I just want to add also that I told
Speaker 3: her before Kim that I was doing twenty three and meters,
Speaker 3: and my sister just told her more about what we
Speaker 3: would find. I told her, I'm doing it because I
Speaker 3: really want to get the health panel, but it will
Speaker 3: also show me who my relatives are and our ancestry.
Speaker 3: And her response was you believe that stuff? I said, yeah, mom,
Speaker 3: it's science. And that was it. But there was another
Speaker 3: point in twenty sixteen when I did the original ancestry test,
Speaker 3: and this comes up in the conversation with what you
Speaker 3: asked I. I told her in twenty sixteen that I
Speaker 3: was doing ancestry and she yelled at me. She got
Speaker 3: very angry with me and said that you know you
Speaker 3: already know what your ancestry is. Why would you spend
Speaker 3: your money on that? And I said, I just want
Speaker 3: to do it. She was livid with me.
Speaker 2: So there was a real pattern there of her trying
Speaker 2: to dissuade you each from doing these kinds of tests,
Speaker 2: from finding out what she probably anticipated you might find. Out.
Speaker 1: Yes, So what happened once you got the results of
Speaker 1: the tests each of you? Did you go and talk
Speaker 1: to your mom again with the results we did.
Speaker 3: We discussed it between us for a few days and
Speaker 3: then decided today's the day. About three or four days later,
Speaker 3: we're going to go over to her house and see her.
Speaker 3: We see each other a lot, we talk all the time.
Speaker 3: So I texted her, I said, we're coming over to
Speaker 3: see her. We both got there and we told her
Speaker 3: sit down on the couch and we took out some
Speaker 3: chairs and sat in her living room across from her,
Speaker 3: and my sister told her, well, we got our twenty
Speaker 3: three and me test back. Mom, is there anything you'd
Speaker 3: like to share with us? I told her that we
Speaker 3: were confused and shocked by our results. She said, what
Speaker 3: could you have found out? I don't know what you're
Speaker 3: talking about. So she still wasn't coming clean, and she
Speaker 3: had to know that's why we're there. She was never
Speaker 3: ever going to tell us. She was taking it to
Speaker 3: the grief. So she denied it, and she said, I
Speaker 3: don't know what you could have found out. And after
Speaker 3: a few times for saying that, I just couldn't hold
Speaker 3: it back. Anymore. And I said, how about that, My
Speaker 3: poor sister has to open up her twenty three and
Speaker 3: meis and have it say, here's your father with his
Speaker 3: picture and his name, and to see all her half
Speaker 3: siblings and for me to see that she's my half sister.
Speaker 3: Let's start there, Mom, do you want to explain that?
Speaker 3: Then she said it's true.
Speaker 4: Finally, I said so, in other words, you weren't going
Speaker 4: to confess until you were caught. And she said that's right,
Speaker 4: because she said your father and I had a pact.
Speaker 4: We were going to tell no one, So she was
Speaker 4: never going to tell us until we atally told her
Speaker 4: what we found out.
Speaker 3: She said, I was praying, and our mother doesn't pray, Okay,
Speaker 3: I was praying you wouldn't find out. We were never
Speaker 3: going to tell you, and I didn't want anyone from
Speaker 3: your father's family to ever know this. And let me
Speaker 3: tell you, there are only a few people left, only
Speaker 3: a few cousins, and they don't live near us, and
Speaker 3: she's not even in contact with them.
Speaker 1: Did she explain to you why they had made this
Speaker 1: pact and why it was so important that nobody find out. No,
Speaker 1: it sounds like she and your father really loved you both,
Speaker 1: and so I'm wondering if you both were curious at
Speaker 1: all underneath all of the anger and sense of shock
Speaker 1: and betrayal. I wonder if you were curious about why
Speaker 1: they might have made that packed. In other words, maybe
Speaker 1: they were trying to protect you or do you have
Speaker 1: any sense of what their reasoning is? As much as
Speaker 1: you disagree with it, did you have any curiosity about that?
Speaker 3: Yes, I do have curiosity about that.
Speaker 4: And we haven't spoken to her about this since that day,
Speaker 4: and I don't know if I ever want to bring
Speaker 4: it up with her again.
Speaker 3: But I am curious why it had to be so secretive.
Speaker 3: I actually know the answer to that, not from her personally,
Speaker 3: but from all the research we've done since then, and
Speaker 3: from the people that we know who we've spoken with,
Speaker 3: like my sister's siblings. A few of them got to
Speaker 3: talk to her father. Her biological father only died two
Speaker 3: years ago, and from what he said and the other said,
Speaker 3: records were never kept. There was just a sign up sheep,
Speaker 3: and it was supposed to be a secret. From what
Speaker 3: I understand, back in the sixties and maybe the seventies,
Speaker 3: no one was supposed to be told, which is outrageous
Speaker 3: that we're denied our medical records, our biological history. So
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that she was told not to say anything
Speaker 3: because of that at the time. But the problem I
Speaker 3: have is she knows this is not the sixties or
Speaker 3: the seventies, and that she purposely was withheld the information.
Speaker 3: And our father, who raised us died thirty eight years ago,
Speaker 3: and from what we've read, most of the moms who
Speaker 3: were alive after the father's died told the children the
Speaker 3: truth about their parentage, and our mothers still didn't.
Speaker 4: Might have siblings have now shared with me letters from
Speaker 4: our biological father because they did get to speak with
Speaker 4: him and exchange letters and to video calls with him
Speaker 4: and all that. And he said everything was anonymous. No
Speaker 4: one knew who the sperm donor was, and the sperm
Speaker 4: donor had no idea who was receiving the sperm. That's
Speaker 4: just how it was back then. It was very secretive,
Speaker 4: which could just be maybe why my parents wanted it
Speaker 4: so secretive. I'll assume the doctors said this is a
Speaker 4: very secretive thing, don't tell anyone.
Speaker 1: So that was two months ago. What else transpired in
Speaker 1: that conversation and what has your contact been like with
Speaker 1: her since then.
Speaker 4: What had transpired was that she was very important to
Speaker 4: her that we do not tell our first cousins on
Speaker 4: our father's side this story. I don't know why it
Speaker 4: still has to be so secretive. She just said, don't
Speaker 4: tell your cousins, and I'm trying to figure out, well,
Speaker 4: does she have the right to tell me that? Is
Speaker 4: it her secret? Is it my secret? Who owns this secret?
Speaker 4: Can I live my true life and not have to
Speaker 4: hide my identsity?
Speaker 1: What I find so interesting about this is both of
Speaker 1: you had so many questions, and you came over to
Speaker 1: talk to your mom about what you had discovered, and
Speaker 1: neither of you asked all of the questions that were
Speaker 1: swirling around in your mind. Is that something that has
Speaker 1: been the relationship with your parents growing up where there
Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of open communication in general, because there
Speaker 1: were so many questions that you had, and you're making
Speaker 1: so many guesses about what the answers are without having
Speaker 1: asked her. When you had the opportunity to ask her.
Speaker 3: We did ask her, and she just kept repeating the
Speaker 3: same things. It was a pact I made with your father.
Speaker 3: It was a packed that was the same answer that
Speaker 3: kept coming up.
Speaker 1: Well, Sandra, I mean the question such as, why can't
Speaker 1: we tell Dad's side of the family, Why can't we
Speaker 1: tell the cousins? That was a question, but you didn't
Speaker 1: ask her. Do you know why?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't ask.
Speaker 2: Lourie's asking you why you didn't ask it.
Speaker 3: Our mom is generally very secretive, and when you try
Speaker 3: to push for more answers, she sometimes just shuts off.
Speaker 3: And I can tell you that through the years, she
Speaker 3: has told me that I tell my children too much.
Speaker 3: I mean, my children are adults now. She has repeatedly said,
Speaker 3: you don't need to tell them everything. You tell them
Speaker 3: too much. So I understand the kind of person that
Speaker 3: I'm dealing with. I also understand she is a product
Speaker 3: of her generation. She's almost eighty eight. But she's very secretive.
Speaker 3: The secret was more important to her than our medical history.
Speaker 3: I mean, I've asked her so many times about different
Speaker 3: medical things and she will say nothing on either side
Speaker 3: of the family. And she also has embellished her pregnancy
Speaker 3: stories that we never asked to hear through the years,
Speaker 3: with lies about how she got pregnant and it was
Speaker 3: so easy, this and that. She's told us stories about
Speaker 3: cousins she hadn't the past, who are doctors who were
Speaker 3: sperm downers when they were medical students. And we've always
Speaker 3: told her we would always want to know the truth
Speaker 3: about anything. We've told her over and over we don't
Speaker 3: like to be in the dark, and she always says, well,
Speaker 3: I like to be and we say, but we're not
Speaker 3: you mom. But when we confronted her, she didn't remember
Speaker 3: telling us those donor stories are.
Speaker 2: So, she claimed, sore you sounded angry at the beginning
Speaker 2: of that conversation with her, were able to express that
Speaker 2: you were angry and upset and hurt and disappointed?
Speaker 3: I told her I was hurt. I told her I
Speaker 3: was angry, And at the end of the conversation I
Speaker 3: will say, I said, and do you have anything else
Speaker 3: further that you would like to add to this? And
Speaker 3: she said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I think, to me,
Speaker 3: it was like when you asked a toddler to say
Speaker 3: they're sorry and they're not and they say it. I
Speaker 3: really believe she was sorry she got caught. I still
Speaker 3: think that she thinks she did the right thing.
Speaker 2: And Kim, what were you able to express to your
Speaker 2: mom in that conversation about how you were feeling.
Speaker 3: She knew I was hurt.
Speaker 4: I was really most worried about her because of her agent.
Speaker 4: I didn't want to upset her. So you know, Sandra
Speaker 4: was definitely angry, and I was taking the other role,
Speaker 4: like I was feeling bad for Mom and worried about her,
Speaker 4: and so you know, Mom was upset. She just said,
Speaker 4: I'm afraid you won't love me anymore. So I was like, no,
Speaker 4: I love you. I'll always love you, Mom, and I
Speaker 4: hugged her, So it's like I was consoling her, but
Speaker 4: I was actually really hurting inside.
Speaker 2: And you said you didn't think she knew that, but
Speaker 2: you didn't express it, probably.
Speaker 4: Not as much as I should have. Yeah, that's because
Speaker 4: Sandra was pretty angry.
Speaker 1: So you felt like she couldn't take the feelings of
Speaker 1: both of you at the same time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was afraid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the end of that conversation, she said she
Speaker 1: was sorry in a way that Sandra you didn't feel
Speaker 1: was genuine.
Speaker 3: I don't really think that she is able to comprehend
Speaker 3: how egregious what she did was, and I don't think
Speaker 3: at her age that she is going to get it.
Speaker 3: We talked for about an hour and a half that day,
Speaker 3: and we've seen her and talked to her a lot
Speaker 3: since then, but not about that. Oh one thing, I
Speaker 3: do want to say that I remember my sister did
Speaker 3: one more time. You did talk to her about the
Speaker 3: next day, and she asked her, weren't you worried that
Speaker 3: we could maybe accidentally date one of our brothers. I mean,
Speaker 3: my sister has a lot of brothers. Oh, that's right.
Speaker 3: I did say that to her, right, I forgot about that.
Speaker 4: She said it never crossed their minds because I have
Speaker 4: a lot of siblings. We all grew up in the
Speaker 4: same city, and these are only the ones who've done
Speaker 4: the DNA tests. There could be dozens more of us
Speaker 4: out there, so she was nu. It never crossed her
Speaker 4: mind that we would possibly meet and eat someone who
Speaker 4: had seen biological father as us, which is very dangerous.
Speaker 1: Did she explain that the reason that they did it
Speaker 1: was because your father was infertile?
Speaker 2: We did at the time was a point of shame
Speaker 2: for a lot of men, and that's probably related to
Speaker 2: why that was a secret. I'm curious though about the
Speaker 2: fact you said the next day you had a bit
Speaker 2: more of the conversation, but since then, You've seen her
Speaker 2: multiple times and this hasn't come up. So since then,
Speaker 2: everyone's pretending like everything's okay. How come you don't have
Speaker 2: to go in there with guns blazing or with guilt bombs.
Speaker 2: But to sweep it under the rug so quickly and
Speaker 2: to pretend that now all is well when that this
Speaker 2: isn't the thing you're thinking about all the time seems
Speaker 2: a little unusual, and I'm curious about why you're doing that.
Speaker 3: I could say for me, I am never like this,
Speaker 3: and it is only in this instance that I've been
Speaker 3: like this because of her aid. But the other reason
Speaker 3: is I don't think I'll be able to get thurther her.
Speaker 3: She doesn't under understand how knowing this could have changed
Speaker 3: the trajectory of our lives. And she can't give me
Speaker 3: those years back of my life walking around not knowing
Speaker 3: who I really was. You know, when you asked about
Speaker 3: our childhood before, we were never alotted that much. I mean,
Speaker 3: we were both straight A students. I probably would have
Speaker 3: made different choices. I know this might sound a little strange,
Speaker 3: but if I had known that my father was a doctor,
Speaker 3: I might have had a little bit more self esteem
Speaker 3: and confidence in myself that I didn't have as a
Speaker 3: seventeen year old. I didn't have until much later in life.
Speaker 3: So I feel like I don't even want to go
Speaker 3: into it with her anymore, even though yes, we are
Speaker 3: taking the hit personally to ourselves by not addressing it
Speaker 3: with her again.
Speaker 1: You said that had you known this as young women,
Speaker 1: you think the trajectory of your lives would have been different.
Speaker 1: About what you imagine?
Speaker 3: Well, what I imagine is I had a half scholarship
Speaker 3: to many private schools on the East Coast, and I
Speaker 3: didn't use them because it would have been a financial
Speaker 3: burden to take out loans for the other half. I
Speaker 3: got my BA early and went on later to work
Speaker 3: in media and to be a teacher. But if I
Speaker 3: had known this at seventeen, or even at twenty three,
Speaker 3: when my father who raised us past, I think I
Speaker 3: probably would have made different choices. I probably would have
Speaker 3: taken out the loans and gone to one of the
Speaker 3: private schools.
Speaker 1: How would knowing these things have made you want to
Speaker 1: do something different?
Speaker 3: Because I think I would have had more self esteem,
Speaker 3: I would have felt more confidence biologically, and I always
Speaker 3: felt different. Like I said, not only you know people
Speaker 3: telling us, We look different, we act different, and just
Speaker 3: nothing made one hundred percent sense to me. Now things
Speaker 3: are making sense, even though it's really sad to find
Speaker 3: it out at this age.
Speaker 1: Can I ask how your father died when it sounds
Speaker 1: like he was rather young.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he died of a heart attack in his early fifties.
Speaker 3: And again their medical issues have come up before and
Speaker 3: she always said nothing on either side. And you know,
Speaker 3: doctor recently gave me a hard stressed test a little
Speaker 3: worried because my father died so young of a heart attack.
Speaker 3: So just another example.
Speaker 2: And Kim for you whether it also thoughts about whether
Speaker 2: your life would have been different had you known this earlier.
Speaker 4: I do agree with Sandra that I would have had
Speaker 4: higher self esteem. My mother definitely did not praise us,
Speaker 4: and she criticized us a lot and did not encourage
Speaker 4: us to pursue career. And just knowing that my biological
Speaker 4: father was a doctor would have definitely given me more confidence.
Speaker 1: These feelings that you have toward your mother about not
Speaker 1: telling you earlier, do you also have them toward your
Speaker 1: father for not telling you.
Speaker 4: I don't have any bad feelings towards my father at
Speaker 4: all about it.
Speaker 1: How come.
Speaker 3: I would have been.
Speaker 4: Quite young to handle this type of information. I was
Speaker 4: only twenty one when he passed, so I feel like
Speaker 4: he's off the hook.
Speaker 1: So you're saying you would have liked to have had
Speaker 1: this secret throughout your whole childhood, because my understanding earlier
Speaker 1: was that you wanted to know when you were younger.
Speaker 1: But now you're saying you don't feel like you could
Speaker 1: have handled the information at twenty one.
Speaker 4: I'm saying as a child, I wouldn't have been able
Speaker 4: to handle it.
Speaker 1: What about you, Sandra, would you have liked to have
Speaker 1: known when you were growing up?
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, I would have liked to have known, probably
Speaker 3: by junior high or high school, and certainly by the
Speaker 3: time I was going into college a month after I
Speaker 3: turned seventeen, or last chance, how about a little bit
Speaker 3: after he passed at twenty three. Absolutely, I absolutely would
Speaker 3: have wanted to have known.
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering for you, do you feel any of
Speaker 1: that anger towards your father because both of them made
Speaker 1: this decision together.
Speaker 3: A little bit, It's like I even give them a
Speaker 3: pass for the sixties and the early seventies because of
Speaker 3: the reading I've done and the time I knew that
Speaker 3: that was what was done, even though it certainly wasn't
Speaker 3: morally or ethically right. But I don't give him a
Speaker 3: full pass. He gets much more of a pass because
Speaker 3: he died thirty eight years ago, but I do hold
Speaker 3: him partially responsible.
Speaker 2: So you've had many decades each of you to develop
Speaker 2: your identity, your sense of self, your narrative about who
Speaker 2: you are in the world. How has this changed that.
Speaker 2: Is that something you're talking about together or is that
Speaker 2: something you're trying to process separately.
Speaker 3: I would say I'm processing it separately. I have been
Speaker 3: talking with a therapist about it because it's been just
Speaker 3: having the rug pulled out from underneath my childhood. I'm
Speaker 3: replaying a lot of scenarios now and they're all sounding
Speaker 3: different than having more memories of things that were said
Speaker 3: or not said. So I have a lot of grief processing,
Speaker 3: you know, what was lost, what was untrue, what I
Speaker 3: might have done differently. So I've been reading and talking
Speaker 3: with a therapist besides Kim to try to process it.
Speaker 3: But the other grief that I have is the grief
Speaker 3: about my mom. I'm so sorry that she put me
Speaker 3: in this position, that this is going to forever change
Speaker 3: the memories and the relationship I have with her while
Speaker 3: she's still alive, and it's going to change how I
Speaker 3: look back on her. And that makes me very sad
Speaker 3: to know that the one person that I thought that
Speaker 3: I could trust betrayed me with the biggest betrayal that
Speaker 3: I think that she probably could have forgone. It's not
Speaker 3: that she's not good to me in other ways, And
Speaker 3: I know, Laurie, you always say two things can be
Speaker 3: true at the same time.
Speaker 1: When we talk about two things can be true at
Speaker 1: the same time, what I think about is that she
Speaker 1: tried to protect you and it came off as harming you,
Speaker 1: and she did not and does not see that. So
Speaker 1: it's one thing for her to think I'm protecting them
Speaker 1: this whole time, But it's another thing when the daughters say, actually,
Speaker 1: that didn't protect us. And I think that's where your
Speaker 1: anger is mostly focused. They think there's a double betrayal.
Speaker 1: There's the first betrayal of we weren't told, and then
Speaker 1: the second betrayal is and when we bring this to light,
Speaker 1: we're told your feelings about this or not valid.
Speaker 3: I would say so, And even if that's what she
Speaker 3: and other parents were told in the sixties and seventies,
Speaker 3: and that they were protecting us we're grown adults. I
Speaker 3: think somewhere in there the switch to protect her reputation,
Speaker 3: to protect this pact which is with my dad, which
Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, was null and void within
Speaker 3: several months after he died thirty eight years ago. In
Speaker 3: my mind, she owed that loyalty to us to let
Speaker 3: us know our identity, So I think it turned from
Speaker 3: protecting us to protecting her.
Speaker 2: Sandra, I think you're right. And after he passed was
Speaker 2: also a different era and people were thinking about these
Speaker 2: things differently, And the fact that she wouldn't tell you
Speaker 2: then is to protect her, but also to protect him,
Speaker 2: And that's also another film of betrayal, that their needs
Speaker 2: superseded yours.
Speaker 3: I don't know why she said some of the things
Speaker 3: she said. Was it kind of funny to her telling
Speaker 3: us about doctor cousins who donated while they were in
Speaker 3: med school and now saying, oh, I never said that,
Speaker 3: Or making up stories about her pregnancies and which were
Speaker 3: obviously total wies.
Speaker 1: My guess, Sandra, is that she wasn't able to really
Speaker 1: get in touch with her own feelings about the fact
Speaker 1: that she was keeping this secret that she felt because
Speaker 1: at the time, doctors would say, don't tell. That was
Speaker 1: the instruction that they gave to parents. Don't tell. Pretend
Speaker 1: this didn't happen. So she probably, outside of her awareness,
Speaker 1: had some mixed feelings about all of this. It was
Speaker 1: hard to hold all of that secret on her own,
Speaker 1: very hard to hold such a big secret with just
Speaker 1: your husband, and they probably never talked about it because
Speaker 1: there was so much shame around it. And I imagine
Speaker 1: these things leaked out not because she was consciously trying
Speaker 1: to do anything, but because this is something she was
Speaker 1: thinking about, and they came out in inappropriate ways. She
Speaker 1: was able to buy herself contain this huge secret that
Speaker 1: she lived with. By the way every day when she
Speaker 1: wasn't in denial, so she'd be in denial for most
Speaker 1: of the time, and then she'd have a little leak
Speaker 1: in the denial mechanism and something would come out, and
Speaker 1: then she'd go back in, like a turtle putting its
Speaker 1: head out and then going back in its shell.
Speaker 2: Secrets often leak in that way. But I think you've
Speaker 2: yet to get to the point where you're really focusing
Speaker 2: on your identity, on what it does or doesn't change
Speaker 2: for you on how you're feeling about yourself in any
Speaker 2: ways that are different or not. And I think that
Speaker 2: they're stages to dealing with shocking news, and they unfold
Speaker 2: one at a time, often with some overlap. But I
Speaker 2: think that this is still very early for you, and
Speaker 2: so you're very much pre occupied with the secret, with
Speaker 2: the lies, with the relationship, and I'm suggesting that to
Speaker 2: come is going to be some work you're going to
Speaker 2: have to do about that sense of identity and what
Speaker 2: it changed. Have you talked about whether it changes anything
Speaker 2: in your relationship with sisters?
Speaker 3: Yes, I could say that that is a benefit because
Speaker 3: we've always gone along, but we've always been very different
Speaker 3: from each other, and now we kind of know why.
Speaker 3: But it's made us closer because who else could have
Speaker 3: such a crazy secret held for so many years from
Speaker 3: them by their mother, So in that way it's made
Speaker 3: us closer. And I too, have talked with some of
Speaker 3: the half siblings, an a nephew, and they've been great
Speaker 3: and we plan to meet up.
Speaker 1: But sometimes, is there any relief in finally having an
Speaker 1: answer to these questions that have been percolating in you
Speaker 1: for so long about why you felt different or why
Speaker 1: you felt that something wasn't right.
Speaker 3: I guess there is some relief. That's a good point.
Speaker 3: I guess there is, But concurrently there is also so
Speaker 3: a lot of grief and anger. But yeah, relief and
Speaker 3: grief at once.
Speaker 1: It sounds like both of your biological fathers passed away
Speaker 1: before you got this information. Is that right?
Speaker 3: I don't know about mine. Santra doesn't know her father.
Speaker 3: I don't know if he's alive. He'd be probably ninety ish,
Speaker 3: so he hasn't been found. I've been looking. I've written many,
Speaker 3: many emails to people on twenty three ae meters, and
Speaker 3: I haven't been able to find a link to the donors.
Speaker 3: I guess they call it social family. The only people
Speaker 3: I've spoken with are half siblings, so I haven't had
Speaker 3: success in that way, and I don't know if I'll
Speaker 3: ever find the link. I'd love to find the link,
Speaker 3: whether he's alive or not. My sister has a very
Speaker 3: different story on that end.
Speaker 1: Was that like for you, Sandra, to watch Kim be
Speaker 1: able to read letters from her biological father and have
Speaker 1: a lot more information than you do.
Speaker 3: I'm happy for her. I wish I would have the
Speaker 3: same experience I have to accept I may never so
Speaker 3: it's sad for me. I very well may never have
Speaker 3: that experience, and I wish I did, but I may
Speaker 3: never have it.
Speaker 2: A lot of different emotions, but certainly the grief and
Speaker 2: the loss is one of them.
Speaker 3: That's true. I know you asked my sister if she
Speaker 3: looked like her dad. I found that I physically resemble
Speaker 3: a couple of my half siblings a lot, and seeing
Speaker 3: that for the first time, they sent me pictures and
Speaker 3: it was really startling. I knew I looked nothing like
Speaker 3: my father's family, and I thought I look like my
Speaker 3: mom's family. I look a little bit like them, way
Speaker 3: more like my father's family, And it was just startling
Speaker 3: to see you've seen.
Speaker 2: When you saying it's just startling, there was a real
Speaker 2: sadness there in your eyes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It just brings back the whole lie, my whole life,
Speaker 5: not being able to know the truth when I always
Speaker 5: felt something was amiss and I didn't know what, and
Speaker 5: seeing that really brought it to light.
Speaker 3: Seeing their pictures, like.
Speaker 2: Wow, right, when you see a resemblance to a sibling
Speaker 2: you didn't know you had, brings back so many moments
Speaker 2: of that doubt, and so many historical moments of feeling
Speaker 2: something very strongly and not having the validation for it correct.
Speaker 2: You mentioned him the question of so what do we
Speaker 2: do visa vir Dad's family and our cousins. Do we
Speaker 2: tell them or do we not tell them? Let's start
Speaker 2: with what you want to do, and then we'll get
Speaker 2: to what the concerns might be. But what would you
Speaker 2: like to do each of you?
Speaker 4: I would like to tell them because I'm close with
Speaker 4: them and I don't want to keep this from them.
Speaker 4: I feel like by omitting it, I'm lying in a way.
Speaker 4: If I would see them and speak to them and
Speaker 4: they say what's new, and I say nothing much, what's
Speaker 4: new with you?
Speaker 3: I feel like it's a lie that would be And Soandra,
Speaker 3: I would like to tell them also, But you know
Speaker 3: my mother sat there at that day saying, don't tell them,
Speaker 3: don't tell them. That's why I didn't tell you.
Speaker 1: What does she think will happen if they find out?
Speaker 1: I have no idea, But you haven't asked, right. There's
Speaker 1: a really interesting message that goes on here, which is
Speaker 1: we want to keep everything in the open. We're people
Speaker 1: who bring things up. We don't like it when things
Speaker 1: are hidden, and yet we don't actually have these conversations.
Speaker 1: We don't ask our mother, well, why what do you
Speaker 1: think would happen if we told the cousins. We don't
Speaker 1: say all the things that we're thinking or ask all
Speaker 1: the questions that we're wondering about. How do you think
Speaker 1: about that? On the one hand, you feel like you're
Speaker 1: people who are very open, and on the other hand,
Speaker 1: your people who are very afraid things up.
Speaker 3: That's a really good question for Kim. I always had
Speaker 3: a fear of my mother growing up.
Speaker 4: She you know, instilled in me, you know, to do
Speaker 4: certain things, don't do certain things, and like, I never
Speaker 4: wanted to anger her, even now at my age, and
Speaker 4: she tells me, don't tell your cousins, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 4: as opposed to.
Speaker 1: Why, except Kim, of the two of you, you're the
Speaker 1: one who said I'd like to tell them, and Sandra
Speaker 1: was the one who said, I'm really torn, right.
Speaker 2: What would she do? Like, how would she react when
Speaker 2: you were a kid? What was the thing that was
Speaker 2: so scary about her that you were afraid of her?
Speaker 4: Oh, she would just disapprove of me. She'd scream at me,
Speaker 4: she'd hit me, I just was petrified.
Speaker 1: What's an example of that where she would hit you
Speaker 1: or she would scream at you. Can you recall an
Speaker 1: incident I don't know, just when we.
Speaker 4: Were little, And I don't think Sandra and I were
Speaker 4: bad kids in any way, but we'd be very afraid
Speaker 4: and she comes, you know, towards us, and we'd be like,
Speaker 4: oh no, no, no, and we tried to lock ourselves
Speaker 4: in our bedroom sash, she couldn't open the door.
Speaker 2: And you were really scared of her. Then, can you
Speaker 2: remember an example of something you did that triggered that
Speaker 2: anger from her, that the specific incident that you can
Speaker 2: tell us about.
Speaker 3: No, not really.
Speaker 4: She just seemed angry all the time, which is odd
Speaker 4: because she'll say that when we were little girls, it
Speaker 4: was the happiest time in her life. But I only
Speaker 4: remember her being angry at us.
Speaker 1: What about your dad? Were you afraid of him?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: And I know Santra and I have different different experiences
Speaker 4: with this. We have discussed this. I just remember having
Speaker 4: a great relationship with my father. I don't remember him
Speaker 4: ever yelling at me or hitting me or disapproving of me.
Speaker 4: It was just from my mom. And Sandra remembers both.
Speaker 3: What do you remember, Sandra, I remember my dad differently.
Speaker 3: By and large, the relationship was okay, we got along
Speaker 3: well in certain ways. But I do remember that I
Speaker 3: got hit as a kid by him, you know. And
Speaker 3: again I'm not excusing it, but I do know that
Speaker 3: it was more common at that time.
Speaker 1: Are you talking about he would spank you with the.
Speaker 3: Strap for being quote bad? And again I have a
Speaker 3: little bit different experience. And I remember him once when
Speaker 3: I was a teen, telling me I was like an
Speaker 3: albatross around his neck.
Speaker 1: Do you know what prompted that comment?
Speaker 3: I don't remember. And again, compared to most teens, it's
Speaker 3: a pretty good kid. You know. I was a really
Speaker 3: good kid, So I would say that, I guess even
Speaker 3: during childhood and certainly later on in adulthood, my sister
Speaker 3: was definitely the quote favorite, and even though she might
Speaker 3: still be afraid of our mom, I would say she
Speaker 3: was the favorite. I still would hear like about once
Speaker 3: a once twice a year. Now event she made betterfe choices,
Speaker 3: and you know, I got divorced. It wasn't a good marriage.
Speaker 3: But my sister, you know, was always smarter in the
Speaker 3: way that she made better choices. And now I feel like, wow, Mom,
Speaker 3: she turns out to have made the worst choice of
Speaker 3: all here by not telling us about our identity, isn't
Speaker 3: lying and betraying us.
Speaker 1: In every family, there are stories this child is like this,
Speaker 1: this child is like this. People get labeled, they get
Speaker 1: stories around them, and then these narratives as children kind
Speaker 1: of seep in and we internalize them, and when they
Speaker 1: continue into adulthood, it's very hard to change the narrative.
Speaker 1: For example, a different narrative around divorces. I made a
Speaker 1: really good choice by ending that marriage. I made a
Speaker 1: really good choice in the new partner that I have.
Speaker 1: I made a really good choice in the way that
Speaker 1: I parent. So there's lots of stories you can tell
Speaker 1: around that one issue. But the story that you're still
Speaker 1: fighting with her about is that you make bad choices
Speaker 1: and that Kim makes better choices. And I think that
Speaker 1: when we talk about what this new story that has
Speaker 1: come into your lives, the story of the person that
Speaker 1: we grew up with is not our biological father and
Speaker 1: we have different fathers, there's an opportunity, I think, as
Speaker 1: you're getting clear on what the accurate story is to
Speaker 1: make the other stories in your life more accurate too,
Speaker 1: so that you're not walking around with these stories that
Speaker 1: are so old and so inaccurate. What was the message Kim,
Speaker 1: that you would get growing up about yourself? Either good one?
Speaker 1: What was your message?
Speaker 3: I was definitely seen as the easier one.
Speaker 4: I didn't give them much trouble purposely, and I knew
Speaker 4: that there was definitely conflict with them in Sandra and
Speaker 4: I'm the younger ones, so I just tried to follow
Speaker 4: all the rules not making trouble.
Speaker 1: We were talking earlier about not keeping the secret yourselves,
Speaker 1: of sharing this information with your family that might make
Speaker 1: trouble for your mom. Do you still feel like you
Speaker 1: need to have that role and not making trouble?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: Exactly why I am torn about saying anything. I don't
Speaker 4: want to anger her.
Speaker 2: So because you keep preferencing her age is almost eighty eight,
Speaker 2: we don't to upset her, et cetera. There's a difference
Speaker 2: between upsetting an eighty eight year old and angering an
Speaker 2: eighty eight year old. Upsetting her is like, oh will
Speaker 2: she be okay? Angering her? Is will I be okay?
Speaker 2: And I want to ask which is it? Is it
Speaker 2: angering or is it upsetting? It's probably both For you, Soandra.
Speaker 3: It's probably both.
Speaker 2: So Sandra and Kim, we have some advice for you.
Speaker 2: We're thinking about the fact that both of you felt
Speaker 2: so upset about the fact that this secret was kept
Speaker 2: from you for so many years, when it could have
Speaker 2: been really significant to learn earlier. And we know you're
Speaker 2: really struggling with this idea of keeping the sea now
Speaker 2: from your cousins who you have a relationship with when
Speaker 2: they're asking you how are you doing? And the biggest
Speaker 2: thing that's happened in many years is something you feel
Speaker 2: you can't talk about. Then that's spilling into a separate
Speaker 2: relationship you have, and we know that makes you uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: So we do think you should tell your cousins, and
Speaker 2: we also think you should tell your mom that you're
Speaker 2: going to tell your cousins. However, yes, however, I know
Speaker 2: both of you had that face like, eh, however, fair enough,
Speaker 2: But this is what we want you to tell your mom.
Speaker 2: We want you to change your mom's story about what happened,
Speaker 2: because her story is from sixty something years ago. Her
Speaker 2: story is about the mores of the time that they
Speaker 2: did something shameful and they were told by the doctors
Speaker 2: not to tell anyone. What would like you to tell
Speaker 2: your mom is mom, Look, we're going to talk to
Speaker 2: our cousins and tell them the truth about what happened,
Speaker 2: because here's how we see that truth. We see that
Speaker 2: you and dad so wanted a family that you were
Speaker 2: willing to do something really brave and something that was
Speaker 2: at the time considered shameful at the time, considered something
Speaker 2: one shouldn't even talk about, but was really brave both
Speaker 2: you and Dad, and you went ahead with this decision.
Speaker 2: And then once you did, you were told not to
Speaker 2: tell us, and you held onto that because you were
Speaker 2: told at the time it would be better for us
Speaker 2: not to know. And even though we would have loved
Speaker 2: to have known, that's what you were told and you
Speaker 2: kept to it, and Dad took it to his grave,
Speaker 2: and you would have as well, other than the fact
Speaker 2: that we found out, But we understand the bravery that took,
Speaker 2: and we know how much you did that to protect
Speaker 2: us because you loved us and you wanted this family
Speaker 2: from before we were born. And that's the story. We
Speaker 2: want to tell our cousins, how brave our mom and
Speaker 2: dad were for wanting us so much that they did
Speaker 2: something so so difficult that's the first task. You tell her,
Speaker 2: and then you tell your cousins. Now, she might have
Speaker 2: a strong reaction and she say no, I don't want that,
Speaker 2: and then you'll reiterate. You'll say, Mum, you don't want
Speaker 2: it because you think it's shameful. We don't. We're here
Speaker 2: because of that choice, We exist because of that choice.
Speaker 2: We want to celebrate that choice, as difficult as it
Speaker 2: is for us.
Speaker 3: For you.
Speaker 2: We want to be proud of you for doing it,
Speaker 2: and we want you to feel proud of yourself for
Speaker 2: having the strength to do it. You'll try and get
Speaker 2: her to change her story, and you should tell your
Speaker 2: cousins regardless. You're letting her know you're doing it. It's
Speaker 2: not a question to her. You're letting her know. But
Speaker 2: if she can change her story just a little bit,
Speaker 2: it might open her up to having more discussions with
Speaker 2: you about it, if she knows that there's a different
Speaker 2: way to think about this.
Speaker 1: And there's this question that you both had about whose
Speaker 1: story is this? And it's everybody's story. But there's this
Speaker 1: famous quote from Carl Jung that secrets are like psychic poison.
Speaker 1: And I think that if you collude with the secret
Speaker 1: you're colluding with the shame, and so given how much
Speaker 1: you wanted to know this information and now that the
Speaker 1: truth is out there, we don't want you to be
Speaker 1: the people colluding with the secret. We want you to
Speaker 1: feel free to share the truth of who you are.
Speaker 1: So that's the first task. The second task, we talked
Speaker 1: a lot about grief and loss and a lot of
Speaker 1: fantasies about what it would have been like had you
Speaker 1: known earlier, the loss of the time, the grief around
Speaker 1: not having been told in time to potentially meet your
Speaker 1: biological fathers, and we would like you to go a
Speaker 1: little bit into that grief because we feel like this
Speaker 1: is very new to both of you and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of anger, but the tender, sad part still hasn't
Speaker 1: really been processing as much. And so we would like
Speaker 1: you each to write a letter to your donor and
Speaker 1: say all of the things that you would like to
Speaker 1: have said had you been able to meet them. And
Speaker 1: this is going to bring you straight to the heart
Speaker 1: of your grief and loss in a way that is
Speaker 1: going to really help you get in touch with that,
Speaker 1: because I don't think you'll be able to move through
Speaker 1: this experience if you aren't getting in touch at that
Speaker 1: really really tender, deep level with the grief and the loss.
Speaker 1: And you were saying earlier, I think, Sandra, you said,
Speaker 1: we really should have had the opportunity to get to
Speaker 1: know where we came from. So what would you have
Speaker 1: said if you could have gotten to know those men?
Speaker 1: So we'd like you to write those letters, and then
Speaker 1: we would like you to read those letters to each
Speaker 1: other so you can be there to support each other,
Speaker 1: and so you can have someone there to witness your
Speaker 1: grief and your loss. And they might be different, so
Speaker 1: you went through a similar experience, but we want there
Speaker 1: to be space for you each to process this in
Speaker 1: a way that happens organically for each of you.
Speaker 2: So there's the grief of this, but there are also
Speaker 2: some positive things that happened from it and some potentially
Speaker 2: empowering things that happened from learning what your true story is.
Speaker 2: And you mentioned it brought you in touch with half
Speaker 2: siblings you didn't know. It allowed you to right now
Speaker 2: confront some aspects of your childhood. Would like you each
Speaker 2: to make a list of the ways in which this
Speaker 2: experience has been empowering for you individually, and that might
Speaker 2: be different for each of you, But what are the
Speaker 2: ways in which this has enriched your lives and potentially
Speaker 2: could going forward when you think of the future. Make
Speaker 2: a list of those different things and describe them, and
Speaker 2: then we'd like you to share that with one another,
Speaker 2: because fundamentally, as sisters, you're going through this together and
Speaker 2: this is bringing you close, and that should be one
Speaker 2: of the items on that list. As you mentioned, here
Speaker 2: are the ways in which it's been empowering. Here's how
Speaker 2: I might grow from this.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that happens when we reflect
Speaker 1: on that is we start to make sense of things
Speaker 1: that didn't make sense in the past. So when your father,
Speaker 1: Sandra said you were in Albatrass, I imagine that that
Speaker 1: was the burden of the secret that was leaking out.
Speaker 1: That you were not the burden, that the secret was
Speaker 1: his burden. People displace their unprocessed thoughts, feelings, emotions, and
Speaker 1: all the things that your mom did. Things are incomprehensible
Speaker 1: to both of you, the things that she mentioned about
Speaker 1: adoption and donors, the leaks, all of the leaks on
Speaker 1: your list. I hope that you'll both think about how
Speaker 1: having these truths helps you make sense of the past.
Speaker 1: In a way that isn't so painful. So some of
Speaker 1: the things that were said and done are now in
Speaker 1: the context of, oh, they had feelings about this big
Speaker 1: secret that they were holding too. Two people knew about
Speaker 1: the secret and two people didn't. But everybody was feeling
Speaker 1: the burden of the secret. And that does not mean
Speaker 1: that the two of you were burdens. The two of
Speaker 1: you were why they went to such great lengths to
Speaker 1: do this. But when you have a secret, it's going
Speaker 1: to leak out in all kinds of ways that are unhealthy.
Speaker 3: It was all very good advice.
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that the sisters reached out to us,
Speaker 1: and also that they have each other, because the revelation
Speaker 1: of a secret has so many ripple effects, and it
Speaker 1: can feel so isolating and so confusing and so lonely.
Speaker 1: And while they're each going to be on their own
Speaker 1: journey with this, they also have this common moment of discovery.
Speaker 1: And they grew up with the same parents and they're
Speaker 1: dealing with the same kind of family issues around secrecy
Speaker 1: and shame and all of the leakage that came out
Speaker 1: over the years that didn't make sense to them that
Speaker 1: now is starting to make sense.
Speaker 2: I agree, And what I'm glad for is that despite
Speaker 2: the fact that they've had different experiences growing up and
Speaker 2: very different experiences now as well, Sondra having much less
Speaker 2: information comparatively, and yet it's been able to bring them
Speaker 2: together and to strengthen their bond.
Speaker 1: And I like how we talked about the both and
Speaker 1: of a situation that there's some relief and freedom that
Speaker 1: comes with I wasn't crazy, I knew something wasn't right,
Speaker 1: and then also all of the reactions that come with
Speaker 1: and what do we do now? Some people are still
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with it. So I'll be really interested to see
Speaker 1: how these assignments go this week for both of them.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're listening to DEA Therapists. We'll be back after
Speaker 2: a short break. So, Laurie, we heard from Sandra and Kim,
Speaker 2: and I am so curious to hear how these assignments
Speaker 2: went for them.
Speaker 3: Hi, this is Sandra. We completed our first assignment by
Speaker 3: going to our mother's house. We started out by letting
Speaker 3: her know that we commend her and my father for
Speaker 3: their bravery and let her know we understand that they
Speaker 3: chose to use a donor because they so desperately wanted children.
Speaker 3: It did open up more discussion. We told her we
Speaker 3: were going to be letting our cousins know because we
Speaker 3: wouldn't be kolude in the secret. On one hand, I
Speaker 3: thought it went better than I had anticipated, as I
Speaker 3: had been afraid that she would yell at me and
Speaker 3: throw me out of her house when we told her this,
Speaker 3: and she didn't, so I was happy about that. However,
Speaker 3: when we continued to ask her why they kept this
Speaker 3: a secret and why she continued to carry this secret
Speaker 3: for decades after our father died, she just kept stating,
Speaker 3: because that's what we decided to do when you were born.
Speaker 3: When we asked her that now, seeing how much pain
Speaker 3: this has caused us, if she would do it that
Speaker 3: way all over again, if she had the chance to
Speaker 3: change things regarding holding the secret, she said that she
Speaker 3: would do it exactly the same way again. For the
Speaker 3: second assignment, writing the letter to my sperm donor father,
Speaker 3: I found it to be cathartic and I was able
Speaker 3: to express a range of emotions, including excitement, grief, and anger.
Speaker 3: I was curious about him and what he looks like
Speaker 3: and his personality. His interests is family, is medical history?
Speaker 3: I wanted to know if there are any similarities between us,
Speaker 3: and also if he has ever given thought to how
Speaker 3: many donor children he may have, and if he was
Speaker 3: at all curious about us, About me, I told him
Speaker 3: about myself, about my life, about my children, and let
Speaker 3: him know that it would have meant a lot to
Speaker 3: me if I had known that he existed, even if
Speaker 3: I didn't get to know him, just if I knew
Speaker 3: that he was out there, it would have been beneficial
Speaker 3: to me. I found it empowering to write my list
Speaker 3: of positives regarding this discovery, including the fact that sharing
Speaker 3: this experience has made my sister and me closer, and
Speaker 3: I've gotten to speak with some pretty cool new closely
Speaker 3: related family members that I had known about before. Additionally,
Speaker 3: I think it gives me a sense of relief, as
Speaker 3: it explains why I always felt different, so things finally
Speaker 3: make more sense. I finally know my story.
Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie and guy, this is Kim. I completed my
Speaker 4: assignments and I wanted to give you the update. Sandra
Speaker 4: and I went over to our mom's house to give
Speaker 4: her the new positive narrative of our story. It did
Speaker 4: not go as well as I had hoped Mom was
Speaker 4: kind of closed off, defensive. I told her how brave
Speaker 4: I thought she and Dad were and how much I
Speaker 4: appreciated the lengths they went through to have a family,
Speaker 4: and that I want to celebrate that story. I told
Speaker 4: her that I am very proud of her for what
Speaker 4: she did, and that I want her to be proud
Speaker 4: of herself too and feel no shame. She then said,
Speaker 4: I am proud of myself. I feel no shame. So
Speaker 4: I then asked them why did it have to be
Speaker 4: a secret then, and she said, because that's what we do.
Speaker 3: Decided.
Speaker 4: I thought you'd be teased, so I guess she was
Speaker 4: trying to protect us when we were children, but we
Speaker 4: are sixty years old. I then told her that we
Speaker 4: want to feel free to share the truth of who
Speaker 4: we are, so we are telling our cousins the story,
Speaker 4: and she angrily said, go ahead and tell your cousins.
Speaker 4: I don't care. I don't even talk to them. I
Speaker 4: then got up to leave. I gave her a hug
Speaker 4: and told her that I loved her. She then said
Speaker 4: sorry in a harsh tone. I said sorry for what,
Speaker 4: and she had no response. I said sorry that we
Speaker 4: are in pain, and she said yes, writing The letter
Speaker 4: to my biological father to express my grief and loss
Speaker 4: was both cathartic and healing. I also expressed my gratitude
Speaker 4: to him for giving his donation so that I can exist.
Speaker 4: My life is definitely been enriched by this new discovery.
Speaker 4: There are a lot of positives. Sandra and I are
Speaker 4: close to now than we have ever been. We have
Speaker 4: definitely bonded over this experience. We had a very meaningful
Speaker 4: and emotional conversation with our cousins, and they were extremely
Speaker 4: comforting and supportive of us and our story. I am
Speaker 4: really looking forward to getting to know and forming relationships
Speaker 4: with my many half siblings. Lastly, Sandra and I finally
Speaker 4: feel validated and our lives finally make sense. We always
Speaker 4: knew that something was off growing up, but we didn't
Speaker 4: know what it was. We looked nothing alike, our personalities
Speaker 4: were completely different. Everyone always asked us if we were
Speaker 4: actually full sisters, and now we finally know why. Thank you,
Speaker 4: Laurie and Guy for all of your help and advice.
Speaker 4: We greatly appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that they each got back to us separately
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of overlap in their reports,
Speaker 1: but there was also a difference, and the first difference
Speaker 1: was how the mom reacted to the conversation. Sandra said
Speaker 1: that the mom reacted better than she expected. She expected
Speaker 1: the mom would yell at them and throw them out
Speaker 1: of the house, and Kim said that the conversation didn't
Speaker 1: go as well as she had hoped, so that was
Speaker 1: interesting just in terms of their expectations. Both of them
Speaker 1: described how when the mom was asked if she would
Speaker 1: do anything differently knowing how much pain holding the secret
Speaker 1: had caused the daughters, that she said she wouldn't and
Speaker 1: I think that they interpreted that as her not seeing
Speaker 1: their pain. But that moment when the mom said sorry,
Speaker 1: even though it was angry, and then Kim said sorry
Speaker 1: that we're in a lot of pain, and the mom
Speaker 1: said yes, you know that there's so much going on
Speaker 1: inside of the mom, and I think it's hard for
Speaker 1: them to see because of their own pain. But I
Speaker 1: felt so much compassion for the whole family when I
Speaker 1: heard that moment and what it took for the mom,
Speaker 1: given how rigid she had been on her position, to
Speaker 1: say sorry and then to acknowledge, yes, I'm sorry that
Speaker 1: I put you through this pain.
Speaker 2: I agree. I also had compassion for the mother in
Speaker 2: hearing these voice messages, because when Kim asked her, why
Speaker 2: didn't you tell us when we were adults, the mother
Speaker 2: wasn't able to say, because I had kept a secret
Speaker 2: for so long. It probably would have felt incredibly scary
Speaker 2: to come and admit that I had lied to you
Speaker 2: all your lives and cause you pain. Then. I think
Speaker 2: people at that time came up with all kinds of
Speaker 2: rationalizations for why they had to keep the secret, And
Speaker 2: I think that what Kim and Sandra need to understand
Speaker 2: is that the mom's positions on this are really stuck
Speaker 2: in time. It's possible that if the dad hadn't died
Speaker 2: and they could have processed it to together, there might
Speaker 2: have been some change. But I think after the father
Speaker 2: passed away then it was not just about maintaining the secret,
Speaker 2: but maintaining his secret or his shame in some kind
Speaker 2: of way, and that made it very difficult for the
Speaker 2: mother to reconsider how she was handling.
Speaker 1: Things right, because she had to really grapple with this
Speaker 1: on her own, and she was not talking to anybody
Speaker 1: about this because she was the sole keeper of that
Speaker 1: secret at that point. And I think it must have
Speaker 1: felt very difficult for her in ways she doesn't realize
Speaker 1: or can't articulate, except there was an opening there when
Speaker 1: she said sorry and could acknowledge their pain. I know
Speaker 1: that's not enough for them right now, but I hope
Speaker 1: that they take that as an opening. I think there's
Speaker 1: going to be more of that, as the mother sees
Speaker 1: them be very open and comfortable and relieved by being
Speaker 1: able to live their lives with their identity being known.
Speaker 2: The other part I really liked was the letters they
Speaker 2: wrote to the donuts, because we asked them to write
Speaker 2: a letter, but they didn't just state things. They said,
Speaker 2: here are the questions I would have asked you, here
Speaker 2: are the things I would have wanted to know. They
Speaker 2: were really comprehensive communicating all the feelings they had, all
Speaker 2: the questions they had, all the thoughts they had. They
Speaker 2: were really enumerting the losses and the misses that they
Speaker 2: didn't get to experience, and I think that's what made
Speaker 2: it so cathartic.
Speaker 1: One of the many losses that happened when you keep
Speaker 1: that kind of secret for so long is the loss
Speaker 1: of the ability to have connected with their donors, and
Speaker 1: that is a huge loss, and so I think that
Speaker 1: in these letters they were able to begin the process
Speaker 1: of doing some of that grief work. They were so
Speaker 1: beautiful what they described, and I hope that they'll continue
Speaker 1: to do some of that grief work because there's more
Speaker 1: to do there. But I think this was a really,
Speaker 1: really positive and healing beginning to that.
Speaker 2: And I was very hardened to hear that. When it
Speaker 2: came to looking at what the empowering aspects of this
Speaker 2: were for them, they were so meaningful. First among those
Speaker 2: what it brought them closer as sisters, but it also
Speaker 2: connected them to their cousins in a new kind of
Speaker 2: way that they're excited about. It presented them with all
Speaker 2: these half siblings that they now have relationships with and
Speaker 2: have an option to form relationships with.
Speaker 1: And I think the biggest piece of this is what
Speaker 1: they both said in different ways. Sandra said, I finally
Speaker 1: know my story and Kim said, our lives finally make sense.
Speaker 1: And that's the story that we hear over and over
Speaker 1: when there's been a big family secret, and then when
Speaker 1: you finally get the validation, oh, it makes sense now.
Speaker 1: People always wondered if we were sisters or I didn't
Speaker 1: really feel a part of the family in the way
Speaker 1: that I thought I would. Whatever it is, just something
Speaker 1: seemed not right. I finally know my story. Our lives
Speaker 1: finally make sense when we think about the positives of
Speaker 1: this experience despite all the pain, that's the positive right there.
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that now the mystery has been
Speaker 1: solved and they can move forward knowing the truth and
Speaker 1: to feel empowered by that truth.
Speaker 2: And the last thing I think is that by telling
Speaker 2: the mom that they're telling the cousins, and then telling
Speaker 2: the cousins and then having these conversations, that is no
Speaker 2: more secret, and that is an incredible relief.
Speaker 1: Next week, a young woman who's now with a healthy
Speaker 1: partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had
Speaker 1: years ago.
Speaker 3: Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.
Speaker 6: I don't want to talk about how I had an
Speaker 6: abusive partner for three years of my life. I want
Speaker 6: to forget about it on the outside, but on the inside,
Speaker 6: I can't forget about it.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please
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Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really
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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast
Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio