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Speaker 1: Hey, dear therapist listeners, it's Lori and Guy, and we

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Speaker 1: have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember were there.

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Speaker 1: Therapy is like that too. There are so many learning

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Speaker 1: moments in a session and it's difficult to absorb them

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Speaker 1: all at once. So while we're not taping new episodes

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Speaker 1: right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions

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Speaker 1: as encores so that you can continue to gain value

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Speaker 1: from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing Dear Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects and that we hope you

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Speaker 2: will love just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Over Grind, How to Break Free When Work Hijacks

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Speaker 2: Your Life. And it will be published by Simon & Schuster.

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Speaker 2: You can find out more about it on my website, guywench.com.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.

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Speaker 1: And I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid.

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Speaker 2: And I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week, we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: we're in session with sisters Sandra and Kim, who discover

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Speaker 2: a family secret that their parents held for 60 years.

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Speaker 3: I internally just felt like there's something that's not right here.

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Speaker 3: We were asked our whole lives if we had the

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Speaker 3: same parents.

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Speaker 2: First, a quick note.

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. It does not

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Speaker 1: constitute medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute

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Speaker 1: for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment. By submitting

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Speaker 1: a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it

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Speaker 1: in part or in full, and we may edit it

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Speaker 1: for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all

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Speaker 1: names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Guy.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Lori.

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Speaker 2: So, who do we have visiting us this week?

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Speaker 1: Well, this week we have two sisters and their names

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Speaker 1: are Sandra and Kim and their letter goes like this.

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Speaker 1: Dear therapists, my sister and I very recently found out

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Speaker 1: that we are donor conceived through two anonymous donors. She

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Speaker 1: is 59 and I am 61. We found out quite

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Speaker 1: accidentally through Ancestry and 23andMe. We have discovered not only

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Speaker 1: that we are half-sisters from different donors, but that we

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Speaker 1: each have many other half-siblings and other family members. Our mom,

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Speaker 1: who is now 87, never told us and has spent

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Speaker 1: our entire lives actively lying about our parentage and our

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Speaker 1: medical history, as well as embellishing the stories of her pregnancies.

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Speaker 1: Our father, who we grew up with, died 38 years ago.

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Speaker 1: As you may imagine, finding this out at our ages

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Speaker 1: has been extremely upsetting on many levels. We feel entirely

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Speaker 1: betrayed by our own mother. any help you could possibly

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Speaker 1: offer would be much appreciated.

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Speaker 4: Sandra.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's another one of these situations in which DNA

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Speaker 2: testing reveals something about people's history that they didn't know.

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Speaker 2: And the issue is it really causes a psychological seismic

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Speaker 2: shift almost that makes you potentially question so many aspects

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Speaker 2: about who you are and so many aspects of your

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Speaker 2: relationships here with her mother, probably her father, her sister,

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Speaker 2: all these new people in her life. So it's this

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Speaker 2: one discovery that can truly be incredibly difficult to process

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Speaker 2: and manage and think through. I am glad that we're

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Speaker 2: going to be talking to both of these sisters because

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Speaker 2: clearly this is something that would be easier for them

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Speaker 2: to process together.

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Speaker 1: What I think is so interesting is that whenever people

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Speaker 1: discover that there's been a secret in the family, it

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Speaker 1: does make you question what was real, what was not real.

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Speaker 1: And she mentioned that it's very upending to get this

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Speaker 1: information at their ages. But I think at any age,

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Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing where you start to really wonder,

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Speaker 1: what does this all mean? So I'm really interested to

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Speaker 1: talk to them and explore that with them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go talk to them.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapist from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: after a short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Sandra.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Kim.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Hi. Hi.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 3: Our pleasure.

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Speaker 2: It's great to have you both. We'd like to start

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Speaker 2: with a little bit of a snapshot of what your

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Speaker 2: lives were like before you found this out. So if

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Speaker 2: we rewind a few months and I asked you, tell

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Speaker 2: me a little bit about your lives, each of you.

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Speaker 2: Tell us. And so we have a picture of the

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Speaker 2: context within which this happened. Sandra, maybe you can start.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 3: I'm a teacher. I taught high school for the past

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Speaker 3: 10 years and I taught before that. I'm divorced. I

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Speaker 3: have a roommate. I have a long distance boyfriend. I

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Speaker 3: have two grown daughters in their twenties. They don't live

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Speaker 3: with me.

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Speaker 1: What about you, Kim? Tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your life.

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Speaker 4: Happy life. My husband and I are both retired. We

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Speaker 4: are empty nesters. We have free to do what we want.

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Speaker 4: Everything was going great.

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Speaker 1: And how old are your kids?

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Speaker 4: 28 and 32.

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Speaker 2: We'd like to hear a little bit about how this

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Speaker 2: was discovered, who found out, how it was communicated to

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Speaker 2: the other.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm the one who quite accidentally found out. I

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Speaker 3: actually went on Ancestry in 2016, kind of just for

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Speaker 3: fun to see if there was anything interesting. Nothing stood

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Speaker 3: out to me really on there. And I actually had

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Speaker 3: not been back on Ancestry in years. So I went

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Speaker 3: back on and the first person under DNA relative I

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Speaker 3: saw was one of my children who did it. She

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Speaker 3: comes up as my daughter at 50% shared DNA. And

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Speaker 3: underneath her, there is a man's name who I've never

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Speaker 3: seen who came up as my second closest relative at 27%

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Speaker 3: shared DNA. So, of course, I was a little flipped out. Ancestry,

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Speaker 3: I think, tries to soften the blow because they list

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Speaker 3: him as a first cousin. At that time, we all

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Speaker 3: looked at what 27% meant. And we saw that means

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Speaker 3: that this person is not, in fact, a first cousin,

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Speaker 3: but a half sibling, that this man would be my brother.

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Speaker 3: So I called my sister and I asked her if

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Speaker 3: she ever heard of this person's name before, you know,

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Speaker 3: who is he? And she hadn't. And I sent him

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Speaker 3: a message to Ancestry and said, hey, I saw you

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Speaker 3: came up at 27%. I don't recognize your name. And

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Speaker 3: he immediately messaged me back and said, hi, here's my

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Speaker 3: cell number. Let's discuss.

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Speaker 4: So he knew. He knew.

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Speaker 3: So at first we thought, oh, this can't be right,

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Speaker 3: you know, before we spoke with him. Maybe he's some

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Speaker 3: secret love child of, you know, one of my uncles.

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Speaker 3: And then the 27% just kept telling me that's not true.

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Speaker 3: So I went to my sister's house and we called

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Speaker 3: him together and talked to him for a long time.

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Speaker 3: That's how I first learned the true story.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us what he said on that phone call?

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Well, he was very gentle with us. He was very,

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Speaker 3: very kind, very gregarious. And the first thing he asked

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Speaker 3: us was, was your father an OBGYN at this specific

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Speaker 3: hospital in Manhattan? And we said, no, why? And he said,

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Speaker 3: let me tell you a story. So he told us

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Speaker 3: that in 2020, his wife had read a book called Inheritance.

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Speaker 3: And it was about DNA donors. And his wife and

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Speaker 3: his mom are close. And his wife told his mom,

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Speaker 3: his 90 plus year old mom about this book. And

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Speaker 3: she confessed, well, actually, that's how I had my son.

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Speaker 3: from a sperm donor. We weren't able to have children.

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Speaker 3: And then he proceeded to go on Ancestry and do

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Speaker 3: his DNA. So he told us this story, recommended we

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Speaker 3: read this book. And then he started asking us questions

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Speaker 3: about our father after asking if he had been a

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Speaker 3: doctor or an OBGYN resident, because that seems to be

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Speaker 3: the pattern. With everyone involved with us, that's who all

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Speaker 3: the donors are turning out to be from this one

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Speaker 3: specific hospital in this time period.

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Speaker 2: They were all residents at the hospital at the time,

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Speaker 2: and that's why they were donating.

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Speaker 3: They were all OBGYN residents in the 50s and 60s.

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Speaker 3: And we said, no, he wasn't. So he just said,

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Speaker 3: here's what I think. You two should do 23andMe because

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Speaker 3: that's where all of the other half siblings are, just

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Speaker 3: he also happened to be on both sites. And you're

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Speaker 3: going to find out all these names on there. And

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Speaker 3: he gave us a list of names who of course

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Speaker 3: all turned out to be my half siblings and some

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Speaker 3: of their children. Oh, and then he told us that

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Speaker 3: his best guess is that the two of us are

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Speaker 3: going to turn out to be half sisters and not

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Speaker 3: full sisters.

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Speaker 1: What was that like when he said that might be

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Speaker 1: the case?

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Speaker 2: And Kim, we'd like to hear from you.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't believe at all that this story could be true.

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Speaker 4: I thought maybe he was a love child from my

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Speaker 4: father and his mother, but I thought there's no way

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Speaker 4: we're from donors. Our mother would have told us that

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Speaker 4: there is not a chance that could be true. And

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Speaker 4: then when he kept saying that it is true, I thought, well, okay,

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Speaker 4: perhaps Sandra is from a donor, but I truly believe

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Speaker 4: that I was from the man who raised me. And

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Speaker 4: so when he said that you're going to be from

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Speaker 4: different fathers and they're going to be different donors, I thought,

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Speaker 4: no way. My father definitely was my father.

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Speaker 1: Was the reason that you felt that this was definitely

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Speaker 1: your father because you had a closer relationship with him

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Speaker 1: than Sandra did?

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Speaker 4: I think I felt closer to him. I also felt

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Speaker 4: closer to his family. And if the story was true,

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Speaker 4: that meant that My grandmother wasn't my biological grandmother. My

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Speaker 4: aunts weren't my biological aunts. My cousins weren't my biological cousins. Like,

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Speaker 4: I could not believe any of that. We were very

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Speaker 4: close growing up. We grew up within five minutes of them.

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Speaker 4: We saw them every week. There's no way that this

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Speaker 4: story could be true.

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Speaker 1: Sandra, what was your relationship like with your father?

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Speaker 3: I had a pretty good relationship with my father. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it had its ups and downs. I think I probably

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Speaker 3: felt more like the black sheep of the family. I

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Speaker 3: always felt different growing up. I internally just felt like

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Speaker 3: there's something that's not right here besides the superficial that

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Speaker 3: the two of us don't look like. We're also very

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Speaker 3: different from each other. And I felt... different from my

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Speaker 3: father's family, even though they were very good to us

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Speaker 3: and kind to us, something just always felt off. We

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Speaker 3: were asked our whole lives if we had the same parents. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we do. Well, you don't look alike and you're so

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Speaker 3: different from each other. I mean, it even went as

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Speaker 3: far as my sister used to ask my mom if

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Speaker 3: she was adopted.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I did.

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Speaker 2: Why, Kim, did you ask that question? Because you're saying

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Speaker 2: you felt really close to your father and his side

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Speaker 2: of the family. Were you feeling... Differently regarding your mom?

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Speaker 4: Because I didn't look like anyone. And so I kept thinking,

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Speaker 4: am I adopted? I'm not adopted, right? And then she

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Speaker 4: would say, no, of course you're not adopted. So I

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Speaker 4: was like, oh, okay. But I knew something was off.

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Speaker 1: This is what happens when there are secrets in a family.

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Speaker 1: We hear this all the time that people always know

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Speaker 1: that something is off. That's the phrase that you just used.

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Speaker 1: And that's the phrase we always hear. Something was off.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't put my finger on it. But I knew

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Speaker 1: that there was something that I just couldn't articulate that

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Speaker 1: didn't feel as it seemed.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: So Kim, this man is telling you, be prepared. You

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Speaker 2: might only be half sisters. Tell us what happened from there.

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Speaker 4: So then I went to do the 23andMe test. I

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Speaker 4: ordered it immediately and, you know, waited anxiously for those results.

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Speaker 4: And when they came in, I was completely shocked. Even

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Speaker 4: though I was told to be prepared, I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: What were the results?

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Speaker 4: The results were that I also was from a donor

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Speaker 4: and not the same one as my sister. And when

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Speaker 4: I opened up the results, the first person, it comes

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Speaker 4: up in order of how much DNA you share. And

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Speaker 4: this person comes up at the very top and it

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Speaker 4: says 50% shared DNA. This is your father. has his

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Speaker 4: name Robert and his picture. And I just gasped. I

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Speaker 4: couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: What happened when you saw not only his name, but

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Speaker 1: his picture?

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Speaker 4: I was just in shock.

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Speaker 2: Were there any similarities you saw in the image that

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Speaker 2: made you feel like, oh, maybe this is my father?

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Speaker 2: Or did it feel like, no, this man is not? Like,

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Speaker 2: how much did it resonate that this person actually is

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Speaker 2: your biological father?

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Speaker 4: It felt like it was not.

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Speaker 2: So there was a resistance to it, to that. notion,

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Speaker 2: even though the DNA is there at 50%, it just

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Speaker 2: doesn't feel real.

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Speaker 4: Yes. When I opened up my results, I figured I'm

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Speaker 4: going to see someone on there from my father's side

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Speaker 4: of the family who maybe just did the test and

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Speaker 4: never told me they did. That's what I was expecting

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Speaker 4: to see. And he came up at the top at 50%.

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Speaker 4: And then underneath a whole bunch of half siblings came

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Speaker 4: up at like 25%.

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Speaker 2: When you say a whole bunch, and Sandra, you also

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Speaker 2: said there was a list. Are we talking two or three?

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Speaker 2: Are we talking five, six, ten? Like, give us a

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Speaker 2: sense of how many people now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for me, it's about ten.

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Speaker 2: And Sandra, for you?

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Speaker 3: I think it's about four or five. And some obvious

285
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Speaker 3: nephews or nieces came up also. I'm sure there are

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Speaker 3: more out there, and they just haven't been discovered yet.

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Speaker 3: But what was really shocking to me was when I

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Speaker 3: did 23 and made afterwards also at the same time.

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Speaker 3: And we're talking just about two months ago. And to

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Speaker 3: open my account and to see my sister, Kim, who

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Speaker 3: I grew up with, with her picture and her name

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Speaker 3: to say half sister, even though I knew it was

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Speaker 3: going to come up, it was shocking. It was jarring. Yes.

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Speaker 4: I felt the same way to see that she's 25%.

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Speaker 4: And so are all of these strangers.

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Speaker 2: What were those first conversations like between the two of

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Speaker 2: you once that confirmation came in and you knew at

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Speaker 2: least what you were dealing with?

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Speaker 3: She called me and I was actually with one of

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Speaker 3: my daughters in the car and we were in shock.

301
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Speaker 3: I mean, we started from shock and disbelief and anger

302
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Speaker 3: and grief. I'm mostly in grief and the grief part

303
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Speaker 3: trying to accept now, but we're angry now. and angry

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Speaker 3: at our mother, very disappointed.

305
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Speaker 2: And for you, Kim?

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Speaker 4: After shock, I also, I felt anger because how could

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Speaker 4: she not tell me? And the truth is I gave

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Speaker 4: her every opportunity because after Sandra got the result from

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Speaker 4: Ancestry and knew that she had a half-sibling and he

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Speaker 4: had told me that this probably was going to be

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Speaker 4: my story as well, I thought, okay, I'm going to

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Speaker 4: tell my mother that I'm going to do 23andMe. I

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Speaker 4: told her, well, we want to find out about our health.

314
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Speaker 4: But I said, and also, I think it's so interesting.

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Speaker 4: They give you all of the ancestors. They tell you

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Speaker 4: everybody who you are related to. and the percent of

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Speaker 4: DNA you share, and they will say what relationship they

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Speaker 4: are to you. She had a cousin years ago who

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Speaker 4: took probably years to draw out a whole family tree.

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Speaker 4: And I said, and the family tree will just pop

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Speaker 4: up on the computer. So this way she knew exactly

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Speaker 4: what I would find out. So I thought, if this

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Speaker 4: story is true, I'm giving her now until I get

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Speaker 4: my results, three to four weeks for her to come

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Speaker 4: clean because I wanted to hear it from her not

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Speaker 4: from a computer, not from a stranger. And she did

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Speaker 4: not come through for me.

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Speaker 1: Is there a reason that in that conversation, instead of

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Speaker 1: testing her to see if she would come clean to you,

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Speaker 1: was there a reason that you didn't want to say

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Speaker 1: to her, hey, mom, Sondra did this DNA test. This

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Speaker 1: is what she found. I'm now doing a DNA test.

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Speaker 1: Is there something that we don't know?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think part of it was I was thinking

335
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Speaker 4: perhaps my father was the donor. And I thought, what

336
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Speaker 4: if she doesn't know that? And so I figured I'll

337
00:19:14,569 --> 00:19:18,139
Speaker 4: just throw it out there, see what she says. But

338
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Speaker 4: she didn't say anything. So then I thought, I'm not

339
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Speaker 4: sure what's going on. And perhaps he really was my

340
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Speaker 4: biological father.

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Speaker 1: When you say she didn't say anything, what did she

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Speaker 1: actually say?

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Speaker 4: She mentioned about the health. She said, oh, I don't

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Speaker 4: know why you would want to know that beforehand. I

345
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Speaker 4: like to be in the dark.

346
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Speaker 1: So she did say something. When you said she said nothing,

347
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Speaker 1: she was actually trying to dissuade you from getting the

348
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Speaker 1: information because she knew what would come up.

349
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Speaker 4: Probably, yeah. But she just said, you know, she likes

350
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Speaker 4: to be in the dark about everything.

351
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Speaker 1: She was hoping you would not take the DNA test. Probably.

352
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Speaker 2: So tell us what happened once you have those results.

353
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Speaker 2: How did you decide when to speak to her, how

354
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Speaker 2: to talk to her? We'd like to hear how that

355
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Speaker 2: went down.

356
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Speaker 3: Well, I just want to add also that I told

357
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Speaker 3: her before Kim that I was doing 23andMe and my

358
00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:16,249
Speaker 3: sister just told her more about what we would find.

359
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Speaker 3: I told her I'm doing it because I really want

360
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Speaker 3: to get the health panel, but it will also show

361
00:20:23,389 --> 00:20:27,809
Speaker 3: me who my relatives are and our ancestry. And her

362
00:20:28,369 --> 00:20:31,129
Speaker 3: response was, you believe that stuff? I said, yeah, mom,

363
00:20:31,149 --> 00:20:34,179
Speaker 3: it's science. And that was it. But there was another

364
00:20:34,299 --> 00:20:38,679
Speaker 3: point in 2016 when I did the original ancestry test.

365
00:20:39,159 --> 00:20:42,259
Speaker 3: And this comes up in the conversation with what you asked.

366
00:20:43,409 --> 00:20:46,929
Speaker 3: I told her in 2016 that I was doing ancestry

367
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Speaker 3: and she yelled at me. She got very angry with

368
00:20:52,069 --> 00:20:56,569
Speaker 3: me and said that, you know, you already know what

369
00:20:56,609 --> 00:21:00,009
Speaker 3: your ancestry is. Why would you spend your money on that?

370
00:21:00,149 --> 00:21:03,029
Speaker 3: And I said, I just want to do it. She

371
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Speaker 3: was livid with me.

372
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Speaker 2: So there was a real pattern there of her trying

373
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Speaker 2: to dissuade you each from doing these kinds of tests,

374
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Speaker 2: from finding out what she probably anticipated you might find out.

375
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Speaker 3: Yes.

376
00:21:16,769 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 1: So what happened once you got the results of the tests,

377
00:21:20,659 --> 00:21:23,019
Speaker 1: each of you? Did you go and talk to your

378
00:21:23,059 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 1: mom again with the results?

379
00:21:26,259 --> 00:21:30,979
Speaker 3: We did. We discussed it between us for a few

380
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:34,259
Speaker 3: days and then decided today's the day, about three or

381
00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:38,199
Speaker 3: four days later, we're going to go over to her

382
00:21:38,239 --> 00:21:41,299
Speaker 3: house and see her. We see each other a lot.

383
00:21:41,399 --> 00:21:45,839
Speaker 3: We talk all the time. So I texted her. I said,

384
00:21:45,879 --> 00:21:49,039
Speaker 3: we're coming over to see her. We both got there

385
00:21:49,059 --> 00:21:52,519
Speaker 3: and we told her, sit down on the couch. And

386
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Speaker 3: we took out some chairs and sat in her living

387
00:21:55,059 --> 00:22:00,459
Speaker 3: room across from her. And my sister told her, well,

388
00:22:00,779 --> 00:22:04,499
Speaker 3: we got our 23andMe test back, mom. Is there anything

389
00:22:04,539 --> 00:22:05,889
Speaker 3: you'd like to share with us?

390
00:22:07,369 --> 00:22:11,369
Speaker 4: I told her that we were confused and shocked by

391
00:22:11,509 --> 00:22:15,939
Speaker 4: our results. She said, what could you have found out?

392
00:22:16,479 --> 00:22:20,649
Speaker 4: I don't know what you're talking about. So she still

393
00:22:20,689 --> 00:22:23,569
Speaker 4: wasn't coming clean and she had to know that's why

394
00:22:23,649 --> 00:22:27,409
Speaker 4: we're there. She was never ever going to tell us

395
00:22:27,489 --> 00:22:28,709
Speaker 4: she was taking it to the grave.

396
00:22:29,109 --> 00:22:32,309
Speaker 3: So she denied it and she said, I don't know

397
00:22:32,369 --> 00:22:36,489
Speaker 3: what you could have found out. And after a few

398
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:40,039
Speaker 3: times for saying that I just couldn't hold it back anymore.

399
00:22:40,299 --> 00:22:44,029
Speaker 3: And I said, How about that my poor sister has

400
00:22:44,089 --> 00:22:48,039
Speaker 3: to open up her 23 and me and have it say,

401
00:22:48,139 --> 00:22:52,319
Speaker 3: here's your father with his picture and his name and

402
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,979
Speaker 3: to see all her half siblings. And for me to

403
00:22:55,059 --> 00:22:58,279
Speaker 3: see that she's my half sister, let's start there, mom.

404
00:22:58,299 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 3: Do you want to explain that?

405
00:23:00,099 --> 00:23:05,519
Speaker 4: Then she said, it's true. Finally, I said, so in

406
00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:08,589
Speaker 4: other words, you weren't going to confess until you were caught.

407
00:23:09,009 --> 00:23:12,499
Speaker 4: And she said, that's right. Because she said, your father

408
00:23:12,539 --> 00:23:14,759
Speaker 4: and I had a pact. We were going to tell

409
00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:17,599
Speaker 4: no one. So she was never going to tell us

410
00:23:17,939 --> 00:23:20,039
Speaker 4: until we actually told her what we found out.

411
00:23:20,389 --> 00:23:25,089
Speaker 3: She said, I was praying and our mother doesn't pray. Okay.

412
00:23:25,589 --> 00:23:28,789
Speaker 3: I was praying you wouldn't find out. We were never

413
00:23:28,849 --> 00:23:32,519
Speaker 3: going to tell you. And I didn't want anyone from

414
00:23:32,579 --> 00:23:36,299
Speaker 3: your father's family to ever know this. And let me

415
00:23:36,399 --> 00:23:39,419
Speaker 3: tell you, there are only a few people left, only

416
00:23:39,479 --> 00:23:43,389
Speaker 3: a few cousins, and they don't live near us, and

417
00:23:43,539 --> 00:23:45,469
Speaker 3: she's not even in contact with them.

418
00:23:46,269 --> 00:23:48,869
Speaker 1: Did she explain to you why they had made this

419
00:23:48,949 --> 00:23:51,869
Speaker 1: pact and why it was so important that nobody find out?

420
00:23:53,149 --> 00:23:53,349
Speaker 3: No.

421
00:23:54,329 --> 00:23:56,729
Speaker 1: It sounds like she and your father really loved you both.

422
00:23:58,109 --> 00:23:58,329
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

423
00:24:00,449 --> 00:24:04,079
Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering if you both were curious at

424
00:24:04,219 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: all underneath all of the anger and sense of shock

425
00:24:08,419 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: and betrayal. I wonder if you were curious about why

426
00:24:13,179 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: they might have made that pact. In other words, maybe

427
00:24:16,899 --> 00:24:19,659
Speaker 1: they were trying to protect you, or do you have

428
00:24:19,699 --> 00:24:22,379
Speaker 1: any sense of what their reasoning is as much as

429
00:24:22,399 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: you disagree with it? Did you have any curiosity about that?

430
00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:28,729
Speaker 4: Yes, I do have curiosity about that. And we haven't

431
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:32,849
Speaker 4: spoken to her about this since that day. And I

432
00:24:33,849 --> 00:24:35,229
Speaker 4: I don't know if I ever want to bring it

433
00:24:35,309 --> 00:24:38,349
Speaker 4: up with her again, but I am curious why it

434
00:24:38,409 --> 00:24:39,769
Speaker 4: had to be so secretive.

435
00:24:40,249 --> 00:24:44,629
Speaker 3: I actually know the answer to that. Not from her personally,

436
00:24:44,709 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 3: but from all the research we've done since then and

437
00:24:48,939 --> 00:24:51,739
Speaker 3: from the people that we know who we've spoken with,

438
00:24:51,879 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 3: like my sister's siblings. A few of them got to

439
00:24:55,179 --> 00:24:59,099
Speaker 3: talk to her father. Her biological father only died two

440
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,269
Speaker 3: years ago. And from what he said and the others said,

441
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,939
Speaker 3: records were never kept. There was just a signup sheet

442
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:09,259
Speaker 3: and it was supposed to be a secret. From what

443
00:25:09,379 --> 00:25:13,859
Speaker 3: I understand, back in the 60s and maybe the 70s,

444
00:25:14,089 --> 00:25:17,989
Speaker 3: no one was supposed to be told, which is outrageous

445
00:25:18,309 --> 00:25:24,289
Speaker 3: that we're denied our medical records, our biological history. So

446
00:25:24,469 --> 00:25:28,129
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that she was told not to say anything

447
00:25:28,389 --> 00:25:30,889
Speaker 3: because of that at the time. But the problem I

448
00:25:30,949 --> 00:25:34,899
Speaker 3: have is she knows this is not the 60s or

449
00:25:34,919 --> 00:25:40,019
Speaker 3: the 70s and that she purposely withheld the information. And

450
00:25:40,199 --> 00:25:43,079
Speaker 3: our father who raised us died 38 years ago. And

451
00:25:43,899 --> 00:25:47,789
Speaker 3: from what we've read, most of the moms who were

452
00:25:47,829 --> 00:25:51,249
Speaker 3: alive after the father's died told the children the truth

453
00:25:51,329 --> 00:25:55,319
Speaker 3: about their parentage. and our mother still didn't.

454
00:25:55,639 --> 00:25:59,089
Speaker 4: My half-siblings have now shared with me letters from our

455
00:25:59,189 --> 00:26:02,369
Speaker 4: biological father because they did get to speak with him

456
00:26:03,069 --> 00:26:05,929
Speaker 4: and exchange letters and do video calls with him and

457
00:26:05,969 --> 00:26:10,109
Speaker 4: all that. And he said everything was anonymous. No one

458
00:26:10,289 --> 00:26:12,949
Speaker 4: knew who the sperm donor was, and the sperm donor

459
00:26:12,969 --> 00:26:16,309
Speaker 4: had no idea who was receiving the sperm. That's just

460
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,739
Speaker 4: how it was back then. It was very secretive, which

461
00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,589
Speaker 4: could just be Maybe why my parents wanted it so secretive.

462
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:26,569
Speaker 4: I'll assume the doctors said this is a very secretive thing.

463
00:26:27,429 --> 00:26:28,289
Speaker 4: Don't tell anyone.

464
00:26:28,569 --> 00:26:31,209
Speaker 1: So that was two months ago. What else transpired in

465
00:26:31,249 --> 00:26:34,239
Speaker 1: that conversation and what has your contact been like with

466
00:26:34,299 --> 00:26:35,019
Speaker 1: her since then?

467
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,319
Speaker 4: What had transpired was that she was very important to

468
00:26:40,379 --> 00:26:44,999
Speaker 4: her that we do not tell our first cousins on

469
00:26:45,059 --> 00:26:48,739
Speaker 4: our father's side this story. I don't know why it

470
00:26:49,059 --> 00:26:51,449
Speaker 4: still has to be so secretive. She just said, don't

471
00:26:51,489 --> 00:26:54,729
Speaker 4: tell your cousins. And I'm trying to figure out, well,

472
00:26:54,949 --> 00:26:56,849
Speaker 4: does she have the right to tell me that? Is

473
00:26:56,929 --> 00:27:00,249
Speaker 4: it her secret? Is it my secret? Who owns the secret?

474
00:27:00,309 --> 00:27:03,209
Speaker 4: Can I live my true life and not have to

475
00:27:03,749 --> 00:27:05,429
Speaker 4: hide my identity?

476
00:27:05,589 --> 00:27:07,689
Speaker 1: What I find so interesting about this is both of

477
00:27:07,729 --> 00:27:11,149
Speaker 1: you had so many questions and you came over to

478
00:27:11,649 --> 00:27:14,529
Speaker 1: talk to your mom about what you had discovered and

479
00:27:14,649 --> 00:27:17,409
Speaker 1: neither of you asked all of the questions that were

480
00:27:17,469 --> 00:27:22,209
Speaker 1: swirling around in your minds. Is that something that has

481
00:27:22,309 --> 00:27:26,449
Speaker 1: been the relationship with your parents growing up where there

482
00:27:26,489 --> 00:27:29,269
Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of open communication in general? Because there

483
00:27:29,309 --> 00:27:31,529
Speaker 1: were so many questions that you had and you're making

484
00:27:31,609 --> 00:27:34,469
Speaker 1: so many guesses about what the answers are without having

485
00:27:34,729 --> 00:27:36,709
Speaker 1: asked her when you had the opportunity to ask her.

486
00:27:37,629 --> 00:27:40,429
Speaker 3: We did ask her and she just kept repeating the

487
00:27:40,489 --> 00:27:43,609
Speaker 3: same things. It was a pact I made with your father.

488
00:27:43,629 --> 00:27:47,299
Speaker 3: It was a pact. That was the same answer that

489
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 3: kept coming up.

490
00:27:48,779 --> 00:27:51,999
Speaker 1: Well, Sandra, I mean the question such as, why can't

491
00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:54,939
Speaker 1: we tell dad's side of the family? Why can't we

492
00:27:54,959 --> 00:27:57,149
Speaker 1: tell the cousins? That was a question, but you didn't

493
00:27:57,789 --> 00:27:59,389
Speaker 1: ask her. Do you know why?

494
00:27:59,409 --> 00:28:01,049
Speaker 4: Yeah, we didn't ask.

495
00:28:01,329 --> 00:28:03,499
Speaker 2: Lori's asking you why you didn't ask it.

496
00:28:03,949 --> 00:28:10,099
Speaker 3: Our mom is generally very secretive. And when you try

497
00:28:10,139 --> 00:28:13,749
Speaker 3: to push for more answers, she sometimes just shuts off.

498
00:28:14,669 --> 00:28:16,929
Speaker 3: And I can tell you that through the years, she

499
00:28:16,989 --> 00:28:20,669
Speaker 3: has told me that I tell my children too much.

500
00:28:20,929 --> 00:28:24,609
Speaker 3: I mean, my children are adults now. She has repeatedly said,

501
00:28:25,309 --> 00:28:27,829
Speaker 3: you don't need to tell them everything. You tell them

502
00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:32,789
Speaker 3: too much. So I understand the kind of person that

503
00:28:32,849 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 3: I'm dealing with. I also understand she is a product

504
00:28:36,299 --> 00:28:41,889
Speaker 3: of her generation. She's almost 88. But She's very secretive.

505
00:28:42,049 --> 00:28:45,569
Speaker 3: The secret was more important to her than our medical history.

506
00:28:45,689 --> 00:28:48,149
Speaker 3: I mean, I've asked her so many times about different

507
00:28:48,189 --> 00:28:51,749
Speaker 3: medical things and she will say nothing on either side

508
00:28:51,789 --> 00:28:59,589
Speaker 3: of the family. And she also has embellished. Her pregnancy

509
00:28:59,649 --> 00:29:02,659
Speaker 3: stories that we never asked to hear through the years

510
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:06,039
Speaker 3: with lies about how she got pregnant and it was

511
00:29:06,099 --> 00:29:09,499
Speaker 3: so easy, this and that. She's told us stories about

512
00:29:09,889 --> 00:29:13,589
Speaker 3: cousins she had in the past who are doctors who

513
00:29:13,629 --> 00:29:17,739
Speaker 3: were sperm donors when they were medical students. And we've

514
00:29:17,779 --> 00:29:20,699
Speaker 3: always told her we would always want to know the

515
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:24,239
Speaker 3: truth about anything. We've told her over and over, we

516
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:26,779
Speaker 3: don't like to be in the dark. And she always says, well,

517
00:29:27,019 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 3: I like to be. And we say, but we're not you, mom.

518
00:29:29,999 --> 00:29:33,499
Speaker 3: But when we confronted her, she didn't remember telling us

519
00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:35,819
Speaker 3: those donor stories or so she claimed.

520
00:29:36,099 --> 00:29:39,799
Speaker 2: Sandra, you sounded angry at the beginning of that conversation

521
00:29:39,879 --> 00:29:42,699
Speaker 2: with her. Were you able to express that you were

522
00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:44,599
Speaker 2: angry and upset and hurt and disappointed?

523
00:29:44,949 --> 00:29:47,369
Speaker 3: I told her I was hurt. I told her I

524
00:29:47,429 --> 00:29:50,769
Speaker 3: was angry. And at the end of the conversation, I

525
00:29:50,809 --> 00:29:53,329
Speaker 3: will say, I said, and do you have anything further

526
00:29:53,349 --> 00:29:55,489
Speaker 3: that you would like to add to this? And she said,

527
00:29:56,549 --> 00:30:00,769
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I think to me, it

528
00:30:01,209 --> 00:30:04,349
Speaker 3: was like when you ask a toddler to say they're

529
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:06,809
Speaker 3: sorry and they're not, and they say it, I really

530
00:30:06,889 --> 00:30:10,209
Speaker 3: believe she was sorry she got caught. I still think

531
00:30:10,309 --> 00:30:12,139
Speaker 3: that she thinks she did the right thing.

532
00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:14,429
Speaker 2: And Kim, what were you able to express to your

533
00:30:14,489 --> 00:30:16,429
Speaker 2: mom in that conversation about how you were feeling?

534
00:30:16,989 --> 00:30:20,809
Speaker 4: She knew I was hurt. I was really most worried

535
00:30:20,849 --> 00:30:23,049
Speaker 4: about her because of her age and I didn't want

536
00:30:23,089 --> 00:30:27,949
Speaker 4: to upset her. So, you know, Sandra was definitely angry

537
00:30:28,729 --> 00:30:31,819
Speaker 4: and I was taking the other role, like I was

538
00:30:31,879 --> 00:30:34,979
Speaker 4: feeling bad for mom and worried about her. And so,

539
00:30:35,059 --> 00:30:38,279
Speaker 4: you know, mom was upset. She just said, I'm afraid

540
00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:41,719
Speaker 4: you won't love me anymore. So I was like, no,

541
00:30:41,739 --> 00:30:44,129
Speaker 4: I love you. I'll always love you, mom. And I

542
00:30:44,189 --> 00:30:46,729
Speaker 4: hugged her. So it's like I was consoling her, but

543
00:30:46,749 --> 00:30:48,509
Speaker 4: I was actually really hurting inside.

544
00:30:49,049 --> 00:30:51,139
Speaker 2: And you said you didn't think she knew that, but

545
00:30:51,179 --> 00:30:52,249
Speaker 2: you didn't express it.

546
00:30:52,729 --> 00:30:55,179
Speaker 4: Probably not as much as I should have. Yeah. That's

547
00:30:55,239 --> 00:30:57,319
Speaker 4: because Sandra was pretty angry.

548
00:30:57,919 --> 00:31:00,599
Speaker 1: So you felt like she couldn't take the feelings of

549
00:31:00,639 --> 00:31:01,679
Speaker 1: both of you at the same time?

550
00:31:01,999 --> 00:31:03,499
Speaker 4: Yeah. I was afraid. Yeah.

551
00:31:03,779 --> 00:31:06,359
Speaker 1: At the end of that conversation, she said she was

552
00:31:06,419 --> 00:31:10,739
Speaker 1: sorry in a way that Sandra, you didn't feel was genuine.

553
00:31:11,099 --> 00:31:15,739
Speaker 3: I don't really think that she is able to comprehend

554
00:31:17,939 --> 00:31:23,599
Speaker 3: how egregious what she did was. And I don't think

555
00:31:24,339 --> 00:31:28,129
Speaker 3: at her age that she is going to get it.

556
00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:30,769
Speaker 3: We talked for about an hour and a half that

557
00:31:30,809 --> 00:31:32,789
Speaker 3: day and we've seen her and talked to her a

558
00:31:32,869 --> 00:31:36,379
Speaker 3: lot since then. But not about that. Oh, one thing

559
00:31:36,439 --> 00:31:39,169
Speaker 3: I do want to say that I remember my sister

560
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:41,549
Speaker 3: did one more time. You did talk to her about

561
00:31:41,589 --> 00:31:45,589
Speaker 3: the next day. And she asked her, weren't you worried

562
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:49,729
Speaker 3: that we could maybe accidentally date one of our brothers?

563
00:31:49,749 --> 00:31:51,499
Speaker 3: I mean, my sister has a.

564
00:31:51,539 --> 00:31:52,359
Speaker 4: Lot of brothers.

565
00:31:53,299 --> 00:31:53,919
Speaker 2: Oh, that's right.

566
00:31:53,959 --> 00:31:55,899
Speaker 3: I did say that to her. Right.

567
00:31:56,159 --> 00:31:59,179
Speaker 4: I forgot about that. She said it never crossed their

568
00:31:59,199 --> 00:32:01,709
Speaker 4: minds because... I have a lot of siblings and we

569
00:32:01,729 --> 00:32:03,949
Speaker 4: all grew up in the same city. And these are

570
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,679
Speaker 4: only the ones who've done the DNA tests. There could

571
00:32:07,699 --> 00:32:11,619
Speaker 4: be dozens more of us out there. So she was, no,

572
00:32:11,739 --> 00:32:14,579
Speaker 4: it never crossed her mind that we would possibly meet

573
00:32:14,619 --> 00:32:17,919
Speaker 4: and date someone who had the same biological father as us,

574
00:32:17,959 --> 00:32:19,119
Speaker 4: which is very dangerous.

575
00:32:19,539 --> 00:32:21,829
Speaker 1: Did she explain that the reason that they did it

576
00:32:21,889 --> 00:32:23,969
Speaker 1: was because your father was infertile?

577
00:32:24,289 --> 00:32:24,669
Speaker 4: We did.

578
00:32:25,109 --> 00:32:27,209
Speaker 2: At the time was a point of shame for a

579
00:32:27,229 --> 00:32:30,469
Speaker 2: lot of men. And that's probably related to why that

580
00:32:30,529 --> 00:32:33,529
Speaker 2: was a secret. I'm curious though, about the fact you

581
00:32:33,549 --> 00:32:35,029
Speaker 2: said the next day you had a bit more of

582
00:32:35,049 --> 00:32:38,039
Speaker 2: the conversation, but since then you've seen her multiple times

583
00:32:38,579 --> 00:32:42,519
Speaker 2: and this hasn't come up. So since then everyone's pretending

584
00:32:42,579 --> 00:32:46,939
Speaker 2: like everything's okay. How come? You don't have to go

585
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:49,849
Speaker 2: in there with guns blazing or with guilt bombs, but

586
00:32:50,129 --> 00:32:53,899
Speaker 2: to sweep it under the rug so quickly. And to

587
00:32:53,939 --> 00:32:56,939
Speaker 2: pretend that now all is well when this isn't the

588
00:32:57,019 --> 00:33:01,059
Speaker 2: thing you're thinking about all the time seems a little unusual.

589
00:33:01,099 --> 00:33:02,839
Speaker 2: And I'm curious about why you're doing that.

590
00:33:03,899 --> 00:33:07,779
Speaker 3: I can say for me, I am never like this.

591
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:11,019
Speaker 3: And it is only in this instance that I've been

592
00:33:11,059 --> 00:33:14,579
Speaker 3: like this because of her AIDS. But the other reason

593
00:33:14,699 --> 00:33:17,359
Speaker 3: is I don't think I'll be able to get through

594
00:33:17,379 --> 00:33:21,799
Speaker 3: to her. She doesn't understand how... Knowing that could have

595
00:33:21,879 --> 00:33:25,859
Speaker 3: changed the trajectory of our lives. And she can't give

596
00:33:25,899 --> 00:33:29,759
Speaker 3: me those years back of my life, walking around, not

597
00:33:29,859 --> 00:33:32,579
Speaker 3: knowing who I really was. You know, when you asked

598
00:33:32,619 --> 00:33:39,509
Speaker 3: about our childhood before, we were never allotted that much.

599
00:33:39,609 --> 00:33:43,029
Speaker 3: I mean, we were both straight A students. I probably

600
00:33:43,089 --> 00:33:46,369
Speaker 3: would have made different choices. I know this might sound

601
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:49,029
Speaker 3: a little strange, but if I had known that my

602
00:33:49,089 --> 00:33:52,659
Speaker 3: father was a doctor, I might have had a little

603
00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:56,799
Speaker 3: bit more self-esteem and confidence in myself that I didn't

604
00:33:56,859 --> 00:34:00,099
Speaker 3: have as a 17-year-old that I didn't have until much

605
00:34:00,199 --> 00:34:03,329
Speaker 3: later in life. So I feel like I don't even

606
00:34:03,539 --> 00:34:06,009
Speaker 3: want to go into it with her anymore, even though, yes,

607
00:34:06,129 --> 00:34:10,069
Speaker 3: we are taking the hit personally to ourselves by not

608
00:34:10,129 --> 00:34:11,529
Speaker 3: addressing it with her again.

609
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:14,569
Speaker 1: You said that had you known this as young women,

610
00:34:15,189 --> 00:34:17,709
Speaker 1: you think the trajectory of your lives would have been different.

611
00:34:18,419 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 1: Tell me about what you imagine.

612
00:34:20,849 --> 00:34:25,169
Speaker 3: Well, what I imagine is I had a half scholarship

613
00:34:25,189 --> 00:34:29,789
Speaker 3: to many private schools on the East Coast and I

614
00:34:30,949 --> 00:34:34,199
Speaker 3: didn't use them because it would have been a financial

615
00:34:34,249 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 3: burden to take out loans for the other half. I

616
00:34:37,379 --> 00:34:41,299
Speaker 3: got my BA early and went on later to work

617
00:34:41,359 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 3: in media and to be a teacher. But if I

618
00:34:44,499 --> 00:34:49,499
Speaker 3: had known this, at 17 or even at 23, when

619
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:53,589
Speaker 3: my father who raised us passed, I think I probably

620
00:34:53,649 --> 00:34:56,669
Speaker 3: would have made different choices. I probably would have taken

621
00:34:56,729 --> 00:34:59,329
Speaker 3: out the loans and gone to one of the private schools.

622
00:34:59,809 --> 00:35:01,829
Speaker 1: How would knowing these things have made you want to

623
00:35:02,069 --> 00:35:02,829
Speaker 1: do something different?

624
00:35:03,609 --> 00:35:06,289
Speaker 3: Because I think I would have had more self-esteem. I

625
00:35:06,969 --> 00:35:11,689
Speaker 3: would have felt more confidence biologically. And I always felt different.

626
00:35:11,709 --> 00:35:15,469
Speaker 3: Like I said, not only you know, people telling us

627
00:35:15,509 --> 00:35:21,429
Speaker 3: we look different, we act different and just nothing made 100%

628
00:35:21,429 --> 00:35:26,389
Speaker 3: sense to me. Now things are making sense, even though

629
00:35:26,459 --> 00:35:29,059
Speaker 3: it's really sad to find it out at this age.

630
00:35:29,359 --> 00:35:32,679
Speaker 1: Can I ask how your father died when it sounds

631
00:35:32,699 --> 00:35:33,579
Speaker 1: like he was rather young?

632
00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:36,999
Speaker 3: Yeah, he died of a heart attack in his early fifties.

633
00:35:37,539 --> 00:35:42,259
Speaker 3: And again, their medical issues have come up before. And

634
00:35:42,379 --> 00:35:44,999
Speaker 3: she always said nothing on either side. And, you know,

635
00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:48,229
Speaker 3: doctor recently gave me a heart stress test, a little

636
00:35:48,269 --> 00:35:51,989
Speaker 3: worried because my father died so young of a heart attack.

637
00:35:52,109 --> 00:35:53,869
Speaker 3: So just another example.

638
00:35:53,889 --> 00:35:58,479
Speaker 2: And Kim, for you, were there also thoughts about whether

639
00:35:58,499 --> 00:36:01,259
Speaker 2: your life would have been different had you known this earlier?

640
00:36:01,859 --> 00:36:05,039
Speaker 4: I do agree with Sandra that I would have had

641
00:36:05,259 --> 00:36:09,019
Speaker 4: higher self-esteem. And my mother definitely did not. praised us

642
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:13,619
Speaker 4: and she criticized us a lot and did not encourage

643
00:36:13,779 --> 00:36:19,639
Speaker 4: us to pursue career. And just knowing that my biological

644
00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 4: father was a doctor would have definitely given me more confidence.

645
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: These feelings that you have toward your mother about not

646
00:36:26,759 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 1: telling you earlier, do you also have them toward your

647
00:36:29,299 --> 00:36:30,519
Speaker 1: father for not telling you?

648
00:36:31,959 --> 00:36:34,249
Speaker 4: I don't have any bad feelings towards my father at

649
00:36:34,329 --> 00:36:38,749
Speaker 4: all about it. How come? I would have been quite

650
00:36:38,829 --> 00:36:41,629
Speaker 4: young to handle this type of information. I was only

651
00:36:41,629 --> 00:36:44,349
Speaker 4: 21 when he passed. So I feel like he's off

652
00:36:44,369 --> 00:36:44,769
Speaker 4: the hook.

653
00:36:45,209 --> 00:36:47,589
Speaker 1: So you're saying you would have liked to have had

654
00:36:47,629 --> 00:36:51,159
Speaker 1: this secret throughout your whole childhood? Because my understanding earlier

655
00:36:51,209 --> 00:36:54,119
Speaker 1: was that you wanted to know when you were younger,

656
00:36:54,499 --> 00:36:57,679
Speaker 1: but now you're saying you don't feel like you could

657
00:36:57,699 --> 00:36:58,939
Speaker 1: have handled the information at 21.

658
00:36:58,939 --> 00:37:01,519
Speaker 4: I'm saying as a child, I wouldn't have been able

659
00:37:01,559 --> 00:37:02,099
Speaker 4: to handle it.

660
00:37:02,669 --> 00:37:04,729
Speaker 1: What about you, Sandra? Would you have liked to have

661
00:37:04,769 --> 00:37:05,679
Speaker 1: known when you were growing up?

662
00:37:05,869 --> 00:37:10,729
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely. I would have liked to have known probably

663
00:37:10,789 --> 00:37:13,609
Speaker 3: by junior high or high school. And certainly by the

664
00:37:13,669 --> 00:37:16,509
Speaker 3: time I was going into college a month after I

665
00:37:16,549 --> 00:37:20,709
Speaker 3: turned 17 or last chance, how about a little bit

666
00:37:20,809 --> 00:37:24,949
Speaker 3: after he passed at 23? Absolutely. I absolutely would have

667
00:37:24,969 --> 00:37:25,609
Speaker 3: wanted to have known.

668
00:37:25,849 --> 00:37:28,709
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering for you, do you feel any of

669
00:37:28,749 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: that anger toward your father? Because both of them made

670
00:37:32,279 --> 00:37:33,259
Speaker 1: this decision together.

671
00:37:33,279 --> 00:37:36,039
Speaker 3: A little bit. It's like I even give them a

672
00:37:36,099 --> 00:37:40,969
Speaker 3: pass for the 60s and the early 70s because of

673
00:37:41,049 --> 00:37:43,589
Speaker 3: the reading I've done and the time I knew that

674
00:37:43,629 --> 00:37:46,949
Speaker 3: that was what was done, even though it certainly wasn't

675
00:37:47,609 --> 00:37:52,659
Speaker 3: morally or ethically right. But I don't give him a

676
00:37:52,749 --> 00:37:55,939
Speaker 3: full pass. He gets much more of a pass because

677
00:37:56,339 --> 00:38:01,049
Speaker 3: he died 38 years ago. but I do hold him

678
00:38:01,129 --> 00:38:02,569
Speaker 3: partially responsible.

679
00:38:02,869 --> 00:38:06,849
Speaker 2: So you've had many decades, each of you, to develop

680
00:38:06,889 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 2: your identity, your sense of self, your narrative about who

681
00:38:10,959 --> 00:38:15,259
Speaker 2: you are in the world. How has this changed that?

682
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:17,899
Speaker 2: Is that something you're talking about together or is that

683
00:38:17,939 --> 00:38:20,029
Speaker 2: something you're trying to process separately?

684
00:38:20,529 --> 00:38:23,459
Speaker 3: I would say I'm processing it separately. I have been

685
00:38:23,499 --> 00:38:26,699
Speaker 3: talking with a therapist about it because it's been just

686
00:38:26,979 --> 00:38:30,339
Speaker 3: having the rug pulled out from underneath my childhood. I'm

687
00:38:30,399 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 3: replaying a lot of scenarios now and they're all sounding

688
00:38:34,799 --> 00:38:37,659
Speaker 3: different and having more memories of things that were said

689
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 3: or not said. So I have a lot of grief

690
00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:46,549
Speaker 3: processing things. you know, what was lost, what was untrue,

691
00:38:47,109 --> 00:38:49,929
Speaker 3: what I might've done differently. So I've been reading and

692
00:38:49,979 --> 00:38:53,659
Speaker 3: talking with a therapist besides Kim to try to process it.

693
00:38:54,099 --> 00:38:57,859
Speaker 3: But the other grief that I have is the grief

694
00:38:57,919 --> 00:39:02,289
Speaker 3: about my mom. I, I'm so sorry that she put

695
00:39:02,369 --> 00:39:06,679
Speaker 3: me in this position that this is going to forever

696
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:10,019
Speaker 3: change the memories and the relationship I have with her

697
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 3: while she's still alive. And it's going to change how

698
00:39:12,979 --> 00:39:16,139
Speaker 3: I look back on her. And that makes me very

699
00:39:16,249 --> 00:39:20,329
Speaker 3: sad to know that the one person that I thought

700
00:39:20,409 --> 00:39:25,189
Speaker 3: that I could trust betrayed me with the biggest betrayal

701
00:39:25,209 --> 00:39:29,609
Speaker 3: that I think that she probably could have done to me.

702
00:39:29,709 --> 00:39:33,029
Speaker 3: It's not that she's not good to me in other ways.

703
00:39:33,949 --> 00:39:36,489
Speaker 3: And I know, Laura, you always say two things can

704
00:39:36,549 --> 00:39:38,089
Speaker 3: be true at the same time.

705
00:39:38,649 --> 00:39:40,769
Speaker 1: When we talk about two things can be true at

706
00:39:40,809 --> 00:39:46,349
Speaker 1: the same time, what I think about is that she

707
00:39:47,229 --> 00:39:52,599
Speaker 1: tried to protect you and it came off as harming you.

708
00:39:52,939 --> 00:39:55,779
Speaker 1: And she did not and does not see that. So

709
00:39:55,819 --> 00:39:58,779
Speaker 1: it's one thing for her to think, I'm protecting them

710
00:39:58,819 --> 00:40:02,079
Speaker 1: this whole time. But it's another thing when the daughters say, actually,

711
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:04,299
Speaker 1: that didn't protect us. And I think that's where your

712
00:40:04,739 --> 00:40:08,789
Speaker 1: anger is mostly focused. They think there's a double betrayal.

713
00:40:08,929 --> 00:40:12,249
Speaker 1: There's the first betrayal of we weren't told. And then

714
00:40:12,309 --> 00:40:15,189
Speaker 1: the second betrayal is, and when we bring this to light,

715
00:40:15,549 --> 00:40:18,829
Speaker 1: we're told your feelings about this are not valid.

716
00:40:19,229 --> 00:40:23,789
Speaker 3: I would say so. And even if that's what she

717
00:40:24,269 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 3: and other parents were told in the 60s and 70s,

718
00:40:26,939 --> 00:40:31,039
Speaker 3: and that they were protecting us We're grown adults. I

719
00:40:31,119 --> 00:40:34,929
Speaker 3: think somewhere in there, the switch to protect her reputation,

720
00:40:35,089 --> 00:40:37,849
Speaker 3: to protect this pact, which is with my dad, which

721
00:40:37,949 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned. was null and void within

722
00:40:41,459 --> 00:40:44,779
Speaker 3: several months after he died 38 years ago, in my mind.

723
00:40:45,459 --> 00:40:48,899
Speaker 3: She owed that loyalty to us to let us know

724
00:40:49,019 --> 00:40:52,289
Speaker 3: our identity. So I think it turned from protecting us

725
00:40:52,349 --> 00:40:53,389
Speaker 3: to protecting her.

726
00:40:53,889 --> 00:40:56,149
Speaker 2: Sandra, I think you're right. And after he passed was

727
00:40:56,209 --> 00:40:58,329
Speaker 2: also a different era and people were thinking about these

728
00:40:58,369 --> 00:41:01,299
Speaker 2: things differently. And the fact that she wouldn't tell you

729
00:41:01,339 --> 00:41:04,789
Speaker 2: then is to protect her, but also to protect him.

730
00:41:04,829 --> 00:41:07,809
Speaker 2: And that's also another form of betrayal that their needs

731
00:41:08,389 --> 00:41:09,289
Speaker 2: superseded yours.

732
00:41:10,049 --> 00:41:12,309
Speaker 3: I don't know why she said some of the things

733
00:41:12,369 --> 00:41:15,559
Speaker 3: she said. Was it kind of funny to her telling

734
00:41:15,659 --> 00:41:19,409
Speaker 3: us about this? doctor cousins who donated while they were

735
00:41:19,449 --> 00:41:22,269
Speaker 3: in med school and now saying, oh, I never said

736
00:41:22,329 --> 00:41:26,569
Speaker 3: that or making up stories about her pregnancies and which

737
00:41:26,609 --> 00:41:28,809
Speaker 3: were obviously total lies.

738
00:41:29,009 --> 00:41:33,029
Speaker 1: My guess, Sandra, is that she wasn't able to really

739
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:35,489
Speaker 1: get in touch with her own feelings about the fact

740
00:41:35,869 --> 00:41:39,269
Speaker 1: that she was keeping this secret that she felt because

741
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:42,629
Speaker 1: at the time doctors would say, don't tell. That was

742
00:41:42,649 --> 00:41:45,909
Speaker 1: the instruction that they gave to parents. Don't tell, pretend

743
00:41:45,929 --> 00:41:51,349
Speaker 1: this didn't happen. So she probably, outside of her awareness,

744
00:41:51,969 --> 00:41:54,019
Speaker 1: had some mixed feelings about.

745
00:41:53,849 --> 00:41:54,139
Speaker 3: All of this.

746
00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:56,559
Speaker 1: It was hard to hold all of that secret on

747
00:41:56,619 --> 00:41:59,579
Speaker 1: her own. It's very hard to hold such a big

748
00:41:59,659 --> 00:42:02,959
Speaker 1: secret with just your husband. And they probably never talked

749
00:42:02,999 --> 00:42:05,709
Speaker 1: about it because there was so much shame around it.

750
00:42:06,659 --> 00:42:10,209
Speaker 1: And I imagine that these things leaked out. not because

751
00:42:10,249 --> 00:42:14,639
Speaker 1: she was consciously trying to do anything, but because this

752
00:42:14,699 --> 00:42:16,679
Speaker 1: is something she was thinking about and they came out

753
00:42:16,779 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: in inappropriate ways. She wasn't able to, by herself, contain

754
00:42:21,379 --> 00:42:25,049
Speaker 1: this huge secret that she lived with, by the way,

755
00:42:25,549 --> 00:42:27,829
Speaker 1: every day when she wasn't in denial. So she'd be

756
00:42:27,869 --> 00:42:30,249
Speaker 1: in denial for most of the time and then she'd

757
00:42:30,269 --> 00:42:33,249
Speaker 1: have a little leak in the denial mechanism and something

758
00:42:33,289 --> 00:42:35,009
Speaker 1: would come out and then she'd go back in like

759
00:42:35,089 --> 00:42:37,579
Speaker 1: a turtle putting its head out and then going back

760
00:42:37,619 --> 00:42:38,059
Speaker 1: in its shell.

761
00:42:38,849 --> 00:42:41,329
Speaker 2: Secrets often leak in that way, but I think you've

762
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:45,069
Speaker 2: yet to get to the point where you're really focusing

763
00:42:45,249 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: on your identity, on what it does or doesn't change

764
00:42:48,799 --> 00:42:51,979
Speaker 2: for you, on how you're feeling about yourself in any

765
00:42:52,019 --> 00:42:54,579
Speaker 2: ways that are different or not. And I think that

766
00:42:54,619 --> 00:42:59,139
Speaker 2: there are stages to dealing with shocking news and they

767
00:42:59,209 --> 00:43:02,329
Speaker 2: unfold one at a time often with some overlap. But

768
00:43:02,349 --> 00:43:04,169
Speaker 2: I think that this is still very early.

769
00:43:04,669 --> 00:43:04,969
Speaker 3: For you.

770
00:43:05,049 --> 00:43:07,469
Speaker 2: And so you're very much preoccupied with the secret, with

771
00:43:07,489 --> 00:43:11,499
Speaker 2: the lies, with the relationship. And I'm suggesting that to

772
00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:14,459
Speaker 2: come is going to be some work you're going to

773
00:43:14,499 --> 00:43:17,659
Speaker 2: have to do about that sense of identity and what

774
00:43:17,679 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: it changes. Have you talked about whether it changes anything

775
00:43:21,579 --> 00:43:22,999
Speaker 2: in your relationship with sisters?

776
00:43:23,839 --> 00:43:27,579
Speaker 3: Yes, I could say that that is a benefit because

777
00:43:27,939 --> 00:43:30,619
Speaker 3: we've always gone along, but we've always been very different

778
00:43:30,659 --> 00:43:32,699
Speaker 3: from each other. And now we kind of know why.

779
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:39,389
Speaker 3: But It's made us closer because who else could have

780
00:43:39,479 --> 00:43:43,579
Speaker 3: such a crazy secret held for so many years from

781
00:43:43,639 --> 00:43:48,499
Speaker 3: them by their mother? So in that way, it's made

782
00:43:48,579 --> 00:43:51,969
Speaker 3: us closer. And I too have talked with some of

783
00:43:52,019 --> 00:43:56,469
Speaker 3: the half siblings and a nephew, and they've been great.

784
00:43:56,709 --> 00:43:59,229
Speaker 3: And we plan to meet up at some time.

785
00:43:59,489 --> 00:44:02,809
Speaker 1: Sandra, is there any relief in finally having an answer to...

786
00:44:04,409 --> 00:44:07,069
Speaker 1: these questions that have been percolating in you for so

787
00:44:07,169 --> 00:44:10,489
Speaker 1: long about why you felt different or why you felt

788
00:44:10,529 --> 00:44:11,599
Speaker 1: that something wasn't right?

789
00:44:12,269 --> 00:44:15,119
Speaker 3: I guess there is some relief. That's a good point.

790
00:44:15,459 --> 00:44:19,379
Speaker 3: I guess there is, but concurrently there's also a lot

791
00:44:19,479 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 3: of grief and anger, but yeah, relief and grief at once.

792
00:44:25,759 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: It sounds like both of your biological fathers passed away

793
00:44:29,919 --> 00:44:31,619
Speaker 1: before you got this information.

794
00:44:31,699 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 3: Is that right? I don't know about mine. Sandra doesn't

795
00:44:35,359 --> 00:44:38,699
Speaker 3: know her father. I don't know if he's alive. He'd

796
00:44:38,739 --> 00:44:45,159
Speaker 3: be probably 90-ish. So he hasn't been found. I've been looking.

797
00:44:45,179 --> 00:44:50,609
Speaker 3: I've written many, many emails to people on 23andMe. And

798
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:55,309
Speaker 3: I haven't been able to find a link to the donors.

799
00:44:55,549 --> 00:44:59,789
Speaker 3: I guess they call it social family. The only people

800
00:44:59,869 --> 00:45:03,869
Speaker 3: I've spoken with are half siblings. So I haven't had

801
00:45:03,949 --> 00:45:05,949
Speaker 3: success in that way. And I don't know if I'll

802
00:45:06,009 --> 00:45:08,489
Speaker 3: ever find the link. I'd love to find the link,

803
00:45:08,549 --> 00:45:12,609
Speaker 3: whether he's alive or not. My sister has a very

804
00:45:12,669 --> 00:45:13,969
Speaker 3: different story on that end.

805
00:45:14,309 --> 00:45:17,209
Speaker 1: What's that like for you, Sandra, to watch Kim be

806
00:45:17,249 --> 00:45:22,299
Speaker 1: able to read letters from her biological father and have

807
00:45:22,319 --> 00:45:24,159
Speaker 1: a lot more information than you do?

808
00:45:24,919 --> 00:45:28,639
Speaker 3: I'm happy for her. I wish I would have the

809
00:45:28,679 --> 00:45:32,269
Speaker 3: same experience. I have to accept I may never. So

810
00:45:32,489 --> 00:45:35,809
Speaker 3: it's sad for me. I very well may never have

811
00:45:35,849 --> 00:45:38,669
Speaker 3: that experience and I wish I did, but I may

812
00:45:38,709 --> 00:45:39,379
Speaker 3: never have it.

813
00:45:39,609 --> 00:45:41,709
Speaker 2: There are a lot of different emotions, but certainly the

814
00:45:41,749 --> 00:45:43,869
Speaker 2: grief and the loss is one of them.

815
00:45:44,009 --> 00:45:46,489
Speaker 3: That's true. I know you asked my sister if she

816
00:45:46,509 --> 00:45:51,089
Speaker 3: looked like her dad. I found that I physically resemble

817
00:45:51,149 --> 00:45:54,529
Speaker 3: a couple of my half siblings a lot. And seeing

818
00:45:54,569 --> 00:45:57,989
Speaker 3: that for the first time, they sent me pictures and

819
00:45:58,209 --> 00:46:03,119
Speaker 3: it was really startling. I knew I looked nothing like

820
00:46:03,199 --> 00:46:07,439
Speaker 3: my father's family. And I thought I looked like my

821
00:46:07,499 --> 00:46:10,379
Speaker 3: mom's family. I look a little bit like them, but

822
00:46:10,399 --> 00:46:14,959
Speaker 3: I look way more like my father's family. And it

823
00:46:15,019 --> 00:46:17,099
Speaker 3: was just startling to see.

824
00:46:17,919 --> 00:46:19,959
Speaker 2: You've seen when you're saying it's just startling, there was

825
00:46:19,979 --> 00:46:22,809
Speaker 2: a real sadness there in your eyes.

826
00:46:23,149 --> 00:46:26,969
Speaker 3: Yeah, it just brings back the whole lie. My whole

827
00:46:27,009 --> 00:46:30,739
Speaker 3: life not being able to to know the truth when

828
00:46:30,819 --> 00:46:33,979
Speaker 3: I always felt something was amiss and I didn't know what.

829
00:46:34,399 --> 00:46:39,339
Speaker 3: And seeing that really brought it to light, seeing their pictures, like, wow.

830
00:46:39,859 --> 00:46:42,899
Speaker 2: Right, and you see a resemblance to a sibling you

831
00:46:42,939 --> 00:46:46,209
Speaker 2: didn't know you had brings back so many moments of

832
00:46:46,269 --> 00:46:50,709
Speaker 2: that doubt and so many historical moments of feeling something

833
00:46:51,149 --> 00:46:53,809
Speaker 2: very strongly and not having the validation for it.

834
00:46:54,029 --> 00:46:54,449
Speaker 4: Correct.

835
00:46:54,969 --> 00:46:58,289
Speaker 2: You mentioned, Kim, The question of, so what do we

836
00:46:58,369 --> 00:47:01,499
Speaker 2: do vis-a-vis our dad's family and our cousins? Do we

837
00:47:01,539 --> 00:47:03,459
Speaker 2: tell them or do we not tell them? Let's start

838
00:47:03,479 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: with what you want to do. And then we'll get

839
00:47:05,799 --> 00:47:08,959
Speaker 2: to what the concerns might be. But what would you

840
00:47:08,999 --> 00:47:10,219
Speaker 2: like to do, each of you?

841
00:47:11,059 --> 00:47:13,249
Speaker 4: I would like to tell them because I'm close with

842
00:47:13,289 --> 00:47:14,869
Speaker 4: them and I don't want to keep this from them.

843
00:47:15,389 --> 00:47:19,629
Speaker 4: I feel like by omitting it, I'm lying in a way.

844
00:47:19,769 --> 00:47:21,569
Speaker 4: If I would see them and speak to them and

845
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:23,599
Speaker 4: they say, what's new? And I say, nothing much. What's

846
00:47:23,639 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 4: new with you? I feel like it's a lie. That

847
00:47:27,339 --> 00:47:27,609
Speaker 4: would be.

848
00:47:28,399 --> 00:47:28,939
Speaker 2: And Sandra?

849
00:47:30,179 --> 00:47:32,729
Speaker 3: I would like to tell them also, but you know,

850
00:47:32,789 --> 00:47:36,209
Speaker 3: my mother sat there at that day saying, don't tell them,

851
00:47:36,269 --> 00:47:38,549
Speaker 3: don't tell them. That's why I didn't tell you.

852
00:47:39,049 --> 00:47:40,749
Speaker 1: What does she think will happen if they find out?

853
00:47:41,129 --> 00:47:42,449
Speaker 3: I have no idea.

854
00:47:42,829 --> 00:47:46,669
Speaker 1: But you haven't asked, right? There's a really interesting message

855
00:47:46,729 --> 00:47:49,049
Speaker 1: that goes on here, which is we want to keep

856
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:52,019
Speaker 1: everything in the open. We're people who bring things up.

857
00:47:52,439 --> 00:47:55,959
Speaker 1: We don't like it when things are hidden. And yet

858
00:47:56,579 --> 00:48:02,229
Speaker 1: We don't actually have these conversations. We don't ask our mother, well, why,

859
00:48:02,269 --> 00:48:04,389
Speaker 1: what do you think would happen if we told the cousins?

860
00:48:04,729 --> 00:48:08,029
Speaker 1: We don't say all the things that we're thinking or

861
00:48:08,149 --> 00:48:12,179
Speaker 1: ask all the questions that we're wondering about. How do

862
00:48:12,219 --> 00:48:15,159
Speaker 1: you think about that? On the one hand, you feel

863
00:48:15,179 --> 00:48:16,979
Speaker 1: like you're people who are very open. And on the

864
00:48:17,019 --> 00:48:18,739
Speaker 1: other hand, you're people who are very afraid to bring

865
00:48:18,779 --> 00:48:19,199
Speaker 1: things up.

866
00:48:19,979 --> 00:48:22,099
Speaker 3: That's a really good question for Kim.

867
00:48:22,289 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 4: I always had a fear of my mother growing up. She,

868
00:48:26,699 --> 00:48:30,579
Speaker 4: you know, instilled in me, you know, to do certain

869
00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:32,439
Speaker 4: things or don't do certain things. And like, I never

870
00:48:32,479 --> 00:48:35,859
Speaker 4: wanted to anger her even now at my age. If

871
00:48:35,879 --> 00:48:38,389
Speaker 4: she tells me, don't tell your cousins, I'm like, okay,

872
00:48:38,849 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 4: as opposed to why.

873
00:48:40,099 --> 00:48:42,029
Speaker 1: Except Kim, of the two of you, you're the one

874
00:48:42,049 --> 00:48:44,769
Speaker 1: who said, I'd like to tell them. And Sandra was

875
00:48:44,789 --> 00:48:46,349
Speaker 1: the one who said, I'm really torn.

876
00:48:46,609 --> 00:48:46,849
Speaker 3: Right.

877
00:48:47,269 --> 00:48:49,729
Speaker 2: What would she do? How would she react when you

878
00:48:49,769 --> 00:48:51,509
Speaker 2: were a kid? What was the thing that was so

879
00:48:51,569 --> 00:48:53,349
Speaker 2: scary about her that you were afraid of her?

880
00:48:53,669 --> 00:48:56,349
Speaker 4: Oh, she would just disapprove of me. She'd scream at me.

881
00:48:56,459 --> 00:48:59,119
Speaker 4: She'd hit me. I just was petrified.

882
00:48:59,319 --> 00:49:01,479
Speaker 1: What's an example of that where she would hit you

883
00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 1: or she would scream at you? Can you recall an incident?

884
00:49:04,259 --> 00:49:04,639
Speaker 4: I don't know.

885
00:49:04,679 --> 00:49:05,539
Speaker 2: Just when we were little.

886
00:49:05,879 --> 00:49:08,959
Speaker 4: And I don't think Sandra and I were bad kids

887
00:49:09,019 --> 00:49:13,779
Speaker 4: in any way. But we'd be very afraid and she'd come,

888
00:49:13,959 --> 00:49:16,609
Speaker 4: you know. Towards us and we'd be like, oh no, no.

889
00:49:16,629 --> 00:49:18,639
Speaker 4: And we tried to lock ourselves in our bedroom so

890
00:49:18,659 --> 00:49:19,619
Speaker 4: she couldn't open the door.

891
00:49:19,639 --> 00:49:22,739
Speaker 2: You were really scared of her then. Can you remember

892
00:49:22,779 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 2: an example of something you did that triggered that anger

893
00:49:25,739 --> 00:49:28,739
Speaker 2: from her? That specific incident that you can tell us about?

894
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,609
Speaker 4: No, not really. She just seemed angry all the time,

895
00:49:32,649 --> 00:49:35,329
Speaker 4: which is odd because she'll say that when we were

896
00:49:35,369 --> 00:49:37,489
Speaker 4: little girls, it was the happiest time in her life.

897
00:49:37,609 --> 00:49:40,029
Speaker 4: But I only remember her being angry at us.

898
00:49:40,829 --> 00:49:42,849
Speaker 1: What about your dad? Were you afraid of him?

899
00:49:43,779 --> 00:49:47,749
Speaker 4: No. And I know Sandra and I have different experiences

900
00:49:47,789 --> 00:49:50,709
Speaker 4: with this. We have discussed this. I just remember having

901
00:49:50,749 --> 00:49:52,949
Speaker 4: a great relationship with my father. I don't remember him

902
00:49:53,129 --> 00:49:56,809
Speaker 4: ever yelling at me or hitting me or disapproving of me.

903
00:49:57,069 --> 00:50:01,479
Speaker 4: It was just from my mom. And Sandra remembers both.

904
00:50:02,619 --> 00:50:03,639
Speaker 1: What do you remember, Sandra?

905
00:50:04,339 --> 00:50:08,739
Speaker 3: I remember my dad differently. By and large, the relationship

906
00:50:08,799 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 3: was okay. We got along well in certain ways, but

907
00:50:13,059 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 3: I do... Remember that I got hit as a kid

908
00:50:18,479 --> 00:50:23,009
Speaker 3: by him, you know, and again, I'm not excusing it,

909
00:50:23,079 --> 00:50:25,769
Speaker 3: but I do know that was more common at that time.

910
00:50:25,789 --> 00:50:27,909
Speaker 1: Are you talking about he would spank you?

911
00:50:28,689 --> 00:50:33,029
Speaker 3: With the strap. for being, quote, bad. And again, I

912
00:50:33,029 --> 00:50:37,709
Speaker 3: have a little bit different experience. And I remember him

913
00:50:38,269 --> 00:50:40,509
Speaker 3: once when I was a teen telling me I was

914
00:50:40,569 --> 00:50:42,399
Speaker 3: like an albatross around his neck.

915
00:50:42,979 --> 00:50:44,379
Speaker 1: Do you know what prompted that comment?

916
00:50:44,999 --> 00:50:49,619
Speaker 3: I don't remember. And again... Compared to most teens, I

917
00:50:49,619 --> 00:50:52,179
Speaker 3: was a pretty good kid. Yeah, I was a really

918
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:57,699
Speaker 3: good kid. So I would say that I guess even

919
00:50:59,359 --> 00:51:03,369
Speaker 3: during childhood and certainly later on in adulthood, my sister

920
00:51:03,429 --> 00:51:07,309
Speaker 3: was definitely the quote favorite. And even though she might

921
00:51:07,489 --> 00:51:10,819
Speaker 3: still be afraid of her mom, I would say she

922
00:51:10,859 --> 00:51:14,599
Speaker 3: was the favorite. I still put here like about once, once,

923
00:51:14,659 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 3: twice a year now, even she made better life choices. And,

924
00:51:18,959 --> 00:51:21,959
Speaker 3: you know, I got divorced. It wasn't a good marriage,

925
00:51:22,579 --> 00:51:25,769
Speaker 3: but my sister, you know, was always smarter in the

926
00:51:25,809 --> 00:51:29,289
Speaker 3: way that she made better choices. And now I feel like, wow, mom,

927
00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:32,509
Speaker 3: she turns out to have made the worst choice of

928
00:51:32,669 --> 00:51:37,409
Speaker 3: all here by not telling us about our identities and

929
00:51:37,569 --> 00:51:39,419
Speaker 3: lying and betraying us.

930
00:51:39,869 --> 00:51:43,149
Speaker 1: In every family, there are stories. This child is like this.

931
00:51:43,209 --> 00:51:45,639
Speaker 1: This child is like this. People get labeled. They get

932
00:51:45,709 --> 00:51:49,499
Speaker 1: stories around them. And then these narratives as children kind

933
00:51:49,539 --> 00:51:53,259
Speaker 1: of seep in and we internalize them. And when they

934
00:51:53,299 --> 00:51:57,059
Speaker 1: continue into adulthood, it's very hard to change the narrative.

935
00:51:57,519 --> 00:52:00,309
Speaker 1: For example, a different narrative around divorce is I made

936
00:52:00,329 --> 00:52:04,529
Speaker 1: a really good choice by ending that marriage. I made

937
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:07,429
Speaker 1: a really good choice in the new partner that I have.

938
00:52:07,959 --> 00:52:09,369
Speaker 1: I made a really good choice in the way that

939
00:52:09,409 --> 00:52:14,129
Speaker 1: I parent. So there's lots of stories you can tell

940
00:52:14,149 --> 00:52:18,669
Speaker 1: around that one issue. But the story that you're still

941
00:52:18,869 --> 00:52:22,229
Speaker 1: fighting with her about is that you make bad choices

942
00:52:22,269 --> 00:52:25,969
Speaker 1: and that Kim makes better choices. And I think that

943
00:52:26,069 --> 00:52:28,769
Speaker 1: when we talk about what this new story that has

944
00:52:28,809 --> 00:52:31,579
Speaker 1: come into your lives, the story of the person that

945
00:52:31,619 --> 00:52:33,999
Speaker 1: we grew up with is not our biological father and

946
00:52:34,019 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 1: we have different fathers. There's an opportunity, I think, as

947
00:52:38,379 --> 00:52:41,959
Speaker 1: you're getting clearer on what the accurate story is to

948
00:52:41,999 --> 00:52:44,599
Speaker 1: make the other stories in your life more accurate too.

949
00:52:45,779 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: So that you're not walking around with these stories that

950
00:52:48,319 --> 00:52:52,259
Speaker 1: are so old and so inaccurate. What was the message, Kim,

951
00:52:52,299 --> 00:52:55,559
Speaker 1: that you would get growing up about yourself? Either a

952
00:52:55,579 --> 00:52:57,169
Speaker 1: good one. What was your message?

953
00:52:57,569 --> 00:53:00,469
Speaker 4: I was definitely seen as the easier one. I didn't

954
00:53:00,549 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 4: give them much trouble purposely. I knew that there was

955
00:53:03,899 --> 00:53:07,779
Speaker 4: definitely conflict with them and Sandra and I'm the younger one.

956
00:53:07,899 --> 00:53:10,559
Speaker 4: So I just tried to follow all the rules, not

957
00:53:10,599 --> 00:53:11,219
Speaker 4: making trouble.

958
00:53:11,959 --> 00:53:15,629
Speaker 1: We were talking earlier about not keeping the secret yourselves

959
00:53:16,449 --> 00:53:20,189
Speaker 1: of sharing this information with your family. That might make

960
00:53:20,249 --> 00:53:22,109
Speaker 1: trouble for your mom. Do you still feel like you

961
00:53:22,149 --> 00:53:24,069
Speaker 1: need to have that role and not making trouble?

962
00:53:24,449 --> 00:53:29,159
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly. Why I am torn about saying anything. I

963
00:53:29,199 --> 00:53:30,179
Speaker 4: don't want to anger her.

964
00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:33,139
Speaker 2: So because you keep referencing her age, she's almost 88,

965
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:36,039
Speaker 2: we don't want to upset her, etc. There's a difference

966
00:53:36,079 --> 00:53:42,699
Speaker 2: between upsetting an 88-year-old and angering an 88-year-old. Upsetting her

967
00:53:42,739 --> 00:53:45,309
Speaker 2: is like, oh, will she be okay? Angering her is,

968
00:53:45,369 --> 00:53:47,889
Speaker 2: will I be okay? And I want to ask, which

969
00:53:47,959 --> 00:53:50,289
Speaker 2: is it? Is it angering or is it upsetting?

970
00:53:51,069 --> 00:53:52,249
Speaker 4: It's probably both.

971
00:53:52,369 --> 00:53:53,029
Speaker 2: For you, Sandra?

972
00:53:53,049 --> 00:53:54,249
Speaker 3: It's probably both.

973
00:53:59,489 --> 00:54:02,939
Speaker 2: So, Sandra and Kim, we have some advice for you.

974
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 2: We're thinking about the fact that both of you felt

975
00:54:06,499 --> 00:54:10,479
Speaker 2: so upset about the fact that this secret was kept

976
00:54:10,499 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 2: from you for so many years when it could have

977
00:54:12,739 --> 00:54:16,039
Speaker 2: been really significant to learn earlier. And we know you're

978
00:54:16,059 --> 00:54:19,479
Speaker 2: really struggling with this idea of keeping the secret now

979
00:54:20,219 --> 00:54:22,579
Speaker 2: from your cousins who you have a relationship with when

980
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 2: they're asking you, how are you doing? And the biggest

981
00:54:24,819 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 2: thing that's happened in many years is something you feel

982
00:54:27,379 --> 00:54:30,379
Speaker 2: you can't talk about, then that's spilling into a separate

983
00:54:30,419 --> 00:54:32,979
Speaker 2: relationship you have. And we know that makes you uncomfortable.

984
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:36,309
Speaker 2: So we do think you should tell your cousins. And

985
00:54:36,349 --> 00:54:38,809
Speaker 2: we also think you should tell your mom that you're

986
00:54:38,829 --> 00:54:43,109
Speaker 2: going to tell your cousins. However, yes, however, I know

987
00:54:43,709 --> 00:54:47,649
Speaker 2: both of you had that face like, hey, however, fair enough.

988
00:54:47,889 --> 00:54:49,769
Speaker 2: But this is what we want you to tell your mom.

989
00:54:49,869 --> 00:54:53,429
Speaker 2: We want you to change your mom's story about what

990
00:54:53,509 --> 00:54:58,059
Speaker 2: happened because her story is is from 60 something years ago.

991
00:54:58,519 --> 00:55:01,739
Speaker 2: Her story is about the mores of the time that

992
00:55:01,979 --> 00:55:04,939
Speaker 2: they did something shameful and they were told by the

993
00:55:04,979 --> 00:55:08,479
Speaker 2: doctors not to tell anyone. What we'd like you to

994
00:55:08,519 --> 00:55:12,139
Speaker 2: tell your mom is, mom, look, we're going to talk

995
00:55:12,159 --> 00:55:14,519
Speaker 2: to our cousins and tell them the truth about what

996
00:55:14,559 --> 00:55:18,299
Speaker 2: happened because here's how we see that truth. We see

997
00:55:18,359 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 2: that you and dad so wanted a family that you

998
00:55:22,919 --> 00:55:27,969
Speaker 2: were willing to do something really brave and something that

999
00:55:28,049 --> 00:55:31,029
Speaker 2: was at the time considered shameful, at the time considered

1000
00:55:31,069 --> 00:55:35,009
Speaker 2: something one shouldn't even talk about, but was really brave,

1001
00:55:35,709 --> 00:55:39,369
Speaker 2: both you and dad. And you went ahead with this decision.

1002
00:55:40,089 --> 00:55:42,019
Speaker 2: And then once you did, you were told not to

1003
00:55:42,059 --> 00:55:45,019
Speaker 2: tell us. And you held onto that because you were

1004
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:46,659
Speaker 2: told at the time, it would be better for us

1005
00:55:46,819 --> 00:55:49,979
Speaker 2: not to know. And even though we would have loved

1006
00:55:50,019 --> 00:55:52,699
Speaker 2: to have known, that's what you were told. And you

1007
00:55:52,819 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 2: kept to it. And dad took it to his grave.

1008
00:55:55,899 --> 00:55:58,179
Speaker 2: And you would have as well, other than the fact

1009
00:55:58,219 --> 00:56:02,019
Speaker 2: that we found out. But we understand the bravery that

1010
00:56:02,179 --> 00:56:06,219
Speaker 2: that took. And we know how much you did that

1011
00:56:06,399 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 2: to protect us because you loved us and you wanted

1012
00:56:09,379 --> 00:56:13,219
Speaker 2: this family from before we were born. And that's the

1013
00:56:13,259 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 2: story we want to tell our cousins, how brave our

1014
00:56:16,279 --> 00:56:18,859
Speaker 2: mom and dad were for wanting us so much that

1015
00:56:18,899 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: they did something so, so difficult. That's the first task

1016
00:56:23,779 --> 00:56:27,489
Speaker 2: you tell her. And then you tell your cousins. Now,

1017
00:56:27,609 --> 00:56:30,509
Speaker 2: she might have a strong reaction. And she goes, no,

1018
00:56:30,629 --> 00:56:32,829
Speaker 2: I don't want that. And then you'll reiterate. You'll say, mom,

1019
00:56:33,429 --> 00:56:36,929
Speaker 2: you don't want it because you think it's shameful. We don't.

1020
00:56:37,269 --> 00:56:40,509
Speaker 2: We're here because of that choice. We exist because of

1021
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:43,709
Speaker 2: that choice. We want to celebrate that choice. As difficult

1022
00:56:43,749 --> 00:56:46,689
Speaker 2: as it is for us, for you, we want to

1023
00:56:46,709 --> 00:56:48,989
Speaker 2: be proud of you for doing it. And we want

1024
00:56:49,029 --> 00:56:51,059
Speaker 2: you to feel proud of yourself for having the strength

1025
00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:53,869
Speaker 2: to do it. You'll try and get her. to change

1026
00:56:53,909 --> 00:56:56,039
Speaker 2: her story. And you should tell your cousins regardless. You're

1027
00:56:56,059 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 2: letting her know you're doing it. It's not a question

1028
00:56:57,859 --> 00:57:00,479
Speaker 2: to her. You're letting her know. But if she can

1029
00:57:00,519 --> 00:57:02,919
Speaker 2: change her story just a little bit, it might open

1030
00:57:02,959 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 2: her up to having more discussions with you about it

1031
00:57:06,299 --> 00:57:08,079
Speaker 2: if she knows that there's a different way to think

1032
00:57:08,139 --> 00:57:08,579
Speaker 2: about this.

1033
00:57:09,139 --> 00:57:11,559
Speaker 1: And there's this question that you both had about whose

1034
00:57:11,619 --> 00:57:15,989
Speaker 1: story is this. And it's everybody's story. But there's this

1035
00:57:16,029 --> 00:57:19,109
Speaker 1: famous quote from Carl Jung that secrets are like psychic poison.

1036
00:57:19,709 --> 00:57:21,689
Speaker 1: And I think that if you collude with the secret,

1037
00:57:22,509 --> 00:57:26,029
Speaker 1: you're colluding with the shame. And so given how much

1038
00:57:26,069 --> 00:57:29,109
Speaker 1: you wanted to know this information, and now that the

1039
00:57:29,169 --> 00:57:32,149
Speaker 1: truth is out there, we don't want you to be

1040
00:57:32,169 --> 00:57:35,989
Speaker 1: the people colluding with the secret. We want you to

1041
00:57:36,049 --> 00:57:38,369
Speaker 1: feel free to share the truth of who you are.

1042
00:57:39,709 --> 00:57:44,539
Speaker 1: So that's the first task. The second task. We talked

1043
00:57:44,579 --> 00:57:48,859
Speaker 1: a lot about grief and loss and a lot of

1044
00:57:49,339 --> 00:57:51,719
Speaker 1: fantasies about what it would have been like had you

1045
00:57:51,759 --> 00:57:56,529
Speaker 1: known earlier, the loss of the time, the grief around

1046
00:57:56,609 --> 00:58:00,349
Speaker 1: not having been told in time to potentially meet your

1047
00:58:00,369 --> 00:58:07,989
Speaker 1: biological fathers. And we would like you to go a

1048
00:58:08,149 --> 00:58:10,709
Speaker 1: little bit into that grief because we feel like this

1049
00:58:10,749 --> 00:58:12,369
Speaker 1: is very new to both of you and there's a

1050
00:58:12,389 --> 00:58:17,659
Speaker 1: lot of anger, but the tender, sad part still hasn't

1051
00:58:17,699 --> 00:58:22,369
Speaker 1: really been processing as much. And so we would like

1052
00:58:22,409 --> 00:58:27,349
Speaker 1: you each to write a letter to your donor and

1053
00:58:27,599 --> 00:58:31,679
Speaker 1: say all of the things that you would like to

1054
00:58:31,719 --> 00:58:37,699
Speaker 1: have said had you been able to meet them. And

1055
00:58:37,759 --> 00:58:40,849
Speaker 1: this is going to bring you straight to the heart

1056
00:58:41,209 --> 00:58:44,579
Speaker 1: of your grief and loss and in a way that

1057
00:58:44,659 --> 00:58:47,899
Speaker 1: is going to really help you get in touch with that.

1058
00:58:48,379 --> 00:58:50,859
Speaker 1: Because I don't think you'll be able to move through

1059
00:58:50,879 --> 00:58:57,659
Speaker 1: this experience if you aren't getting in touch at that really,

1060
00:58:57,759 --> 00:59:01,239
Speaker 1: really tender, deep level with the grief and the loss.

1061
00:59:02,579 --> 00:59:04,999
Speaker 1: And you were saying earlier, I think, Sandra, you said,

1062
00:59:05,379 --> 00:59:07,889
Speaker 1: we really should have had the opportunity to get to

1063
00:59:07,959 --> 00:59:12,249
Speaker 1: know where we came from. So what would you have

1064
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:14,969
Speaker 1: said if you could have gotten to know those men?

1065
00:59:16,479 --> 00:59:18,909
Speaker 1: So we'd like you to write those letters. And then

1066
00:59:18,929 --> 00:59:22,879
Speaker 1: we would like you to read those letters to each

1067
00:59:22,959 --> 00:59:25,579
Speaker 1: other so that you can be there to support each other.

1068
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:31,359
Speaker 1: And so you can have someone there to witness your

1069
00:59:31,379 --> 00:59:33,819
Speaker 1: grief and your loss. And they might be different. So

1070
00:59:33,959 --> 00:59:35,899
Speaker 1: you went through a similar experience, but we want there

1071
00:59:35,939 --> 00:59:38,279
Speaker 1: to be space for you each to process this in

1072
00:59:38,299 --> 00:59:40,739
Speaker 1: the way that happens organically for each of you.

1073
00:59:41,279 --> 00:59:44,729
Speaker 2: So there's the grief of this, but there are also

1074
00:59:45,189 --> 00:59:49,609
Speaker 2: some positive things that happened from it and some potentially

1075
00:59:49,749 --> 00:59:55,489
Speaker 2: empowering things that happened from learning what your true story is.

1076
00:59:55,929 --> 00:59:58,929
Speaker 2: And you mentioned it brought you in touch with half

1077
00:59:58,959 --> 01:00:02,679
Speaker 2: siblings you didn't know. It allowed you to, right now,

1078
01:00:02,779 --> 01:00:06,359
Speaker 2: confront some aspects of your childhood. We'd like you each

1079
01:00:06,419 --> 01:00:09,539
Speaker 2: to make a list. of the ways in which this

1080
01:00:09,639 --> 01:00:13,419
Speaker 2: experience has been empowering for you individually. And that might

1081
01:00:13,479 --> 01:00:16,069
Speaker 2: be different for each of you, but what are the

1082
01:00:16,109 --> 01:00:20,169
Speaker 2: ways in which this has enriched your lives? and potentially

1083
01:00:20,249 --> 01:00:23,229
Speaker 2: could going forward? When you think of the future, make

1084
01:00:23,269 --> 01:00:26,199
Speaker 2: a list of those different things and describe them. And

1085
01:00:26,229 --> 01:00:28,559
Speaker 2: then we'd like you to share that with one another,

1086
01:00:28,619 --> 01:00:32,939
Speaker 2: because fundamentally as sisters, you're going through this together and

1087
01:00:32,979 --> 01:00:34,859
Speaker 2: this is bringing you closer. That should be one of

1088
01:00:34,899 --> 01:00:37,399
Speaker 2: the items on that list, as you mentioned. Here are

1089
01:00:37,419 --> 01:00:40,949
Speaker 2: the ways in which it's been empowering. Here's how I

1090
01:00:41,349 --> 01:00:42,629
Speaker 2: might grow from this.

1091
01:00:43,269 --> 01:00:45,989
Speaker 1: And one of the things that happens when we reflect

1092
01:00:46,089 --> 01:00:48,229
Speaker 1: on that is we start to make sense of things

1093
01:00:48,249 --> 01:00:51,679
Speaker 1: that didn't make sense in the past. So when your father, Sandra,

1094
01:00:51,719 --> 01:00:55,539
Speaker 1: said you were an albatross, I imagine that that was

1095
01:00:56,459 --> 01:00:59,599
Speaker 1: the burden of the secret that was leaking out, that

1096
01:00:59,699 --> 01:01:03,519
Speaker 1: you were not the burden, that the secret was his burden.

1097
01:01:03,719 --> 01:01:09,919
Speaker 1: People displace their unprocessed thoughts, feelings, emotions. And all the

1098
01:01:09,959 --> 01:01:12,459
Speaker 1: things that your mom did, things that are incomprehensible to

1099
01:01:12,499 --> 01:01:15,199
Speaker 1: both of you, the things that she mentioned about adoption

1100
01:01:15,259 --> 01:01:18,629
Speaker 1: and donors, the leaks, all of the leaks. And on

1101
01:01:18,649 --> 01:01:21,609
Speaker 1: your list, I hope that you'll both think about how

1102
01:01:21,689 --> 01:01:24,529
Speaker 1: having these truths helps you make sense of the past

1103
01:01:25,289 --> 01:01:28,489
Speaker 1: in a way that isn't so painful. So some of

1104
01:01:28,529 --> 01:01:31,589
Speaker 1: the things that were said and done are now in

1105
01:01:31,629 --> 01:01:36,279
Speaker 1: the context of, oh, they had feelings about this big

1106
01:01:36,359 --> 01:01:39,279
Speaker 1: secret that they were holding too. Two people knew about

1107
01:01:39,299 --> 01:01:42,459
Speaker 1: the secret and two people didn't, but everybody was feeling

1108
01:01:42,499 --> 01:01:45,479
Speaker 1: the burden of the secret. And that does not mean

1109
01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:47,059
Speaker 1: that the two of you were burdens. The two of

1110
01:01:47,139 --> 01:01:50,279
Speaker 1: you were why they went to such great lengths to

1111
01:01:50,339 --> 01:01:55,019
Speaker 1: do this. But when you have a secret, it's going

1112
01:01:55,039 --> 01:01:57,779
Speaker 1: to leak out in all kinds of ways that are unhealthy.

1113
01:01:58,619 --> 01:01:59,859
Speaker 3: That's all very good advice.

1114
01:02:05,929 --> 01:02:08,029
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that the sisters reached out to us

1115
01:02:08,129 --> 01:02:11,859
Speaker 1: and also that they have each other because the revelation

1116
01:02:12,039 --> 01:02:15,959
Speaker 1: of a secret has so many ripple effects and it

1117
01:02:15,999 --> 01:02:19,719
Speaker 1: can feel so isolating and so confusing and so lonely.

1118
01:02:20,099 --> 01:02:22,079
Speaker 1: And while they're each going to be on their own

1119
01:02:22,319 --> 01:02:27,849
Speaker 1: journey with this, they also have this common moment of

1120
01:02:28,049 --> 01:02:31,489
Speaker 1: discovery and they grew up with the same parents and

1121
01:02:31,569 --> 01:02:34,529
Speaker 1: they're dealing with the same kind of family issues around

1122
01:02:34,939 --> 01:02:38,749
Speaker 1: secrecy and shame and all of the leakage that came

1123
01:02:38,809 --> 01:02:41,169
Speaker 1: out over the years that didn't make sense to them

1124
01:02:41,229 --> 01:02:43,309
Speaker 1: that now is starting to make sense.

1125
01:02:44,909 --> 01:02:45,269
Speaker 4: I agree.

1126
01:02:45,289 --> 01:02:47,849
Speaker 2: And what I'm glad for is that despite the fact

1127
01:02:47,889 --> 01:02:51,809
Speaker 2: that they've had different experiences growing up and very different

1128
01:02:51,849 --> 01:02:56,809
Speaker 2: experiences now as well, Sandra having much less information comparatively,

1129
01:02:56,829 --> 01:03:00,409
Speaker 2: and yet it's been able to bring them together and

1130
01:03:00,449 --> 01:03:01,609
Speaker 2: to strengthen their bond.

1131
01:03:01,969 --> 01:03:03,709
Speaker 1: And I like how we talked about the both and

1132
01:03:03,749 --> 01:03:06,909
Speaker 1: of a situation, that there's some relief and freedom that

1133
01:03:06,979 --> 01:03:10,019
Speaker 1: comes with, I wasn't crazy, I knew something wasn't right.

1134
01:03:11,099 --> 01:03:14,779
Speaker 1: And then also all of the reactions that come with,

1135
01:03:14,919 --> 01:03:17,419
Speaker 1: and what do we do now? And some people are

1136
01:03:17,459 --> 01:03:20,139
Speaker 1: still uncomfortable with it. So I'll be really interested to

1137
01:03:20,199 --> 01:03:22,269
Speaker 1: see how these assignments go this week for both of them.

1138
01:03:22,889 --> 01:03:32,249
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You're listening to Dear Therapists. We'll be back after

1139
01:03:32,289 --> 01:03:47,539
Speaker 2: a short break. So Laurie, we heard from Sandra and Kim,

1140
01:03:47,679 --> 01:03:51,559
Speaker 2: and I am so curious to hear how these assignments

1141
01:03:51,639 --> 01:03:52,099
Speaker 2: went for them.

1142
01:03:52,599 --> 01:03:55,879
Speaker 3: Hi, this is Sandra. We completed our first assignment by

1143
01:03:55,939 --> 01:03:58,879
Speaker 3: going to our mother's house. We started out by letting

1144
01:03:58,919 --> 01:04:02,439
Speaker 3: her know that we commend her and my father for

1145
01:04:02,499 --> 01:04:06,069
Speaker 3: their bravery and let her know we understand that they

1146
01:04:06,169 --> 01:04:10,109
Speaker 3: chose to use a donor because they so desperately wanted children.

1147
01:04:11,669 --> 01:04:15,349
Speaker 3: It did open up more discussion. We told her we

1148
01:04:15,369 --> 01:04:17,819
Speaker 3: were going to be letting our cousins know because we

1149
01:04:17,859 --> 01:04:21,059
Speaker 3: wouldn't be colluding in the secrets. On one hand, I

1150
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:24,459
Speaker 3: thought it went better than I had anticipated as I

1151
01:04:24,499 --> 01:04:26,929
Speaker 3: had been afraid that she would yell at me and

1152
01:04:26,969 --> 01:04:29,289
Speaker 3: throw me out of her house when we told her

1153
01:04:29,329 --> 01:04:33,289
Speaker 3: this and she didn't. So I was happy about that. However,

1154
01:04:33,529 --> 01:04:37,369
Speaker 3: when we continued to ask her why they kept this

1155
01:04:37,449 --> 01:04:40,629
Speaker 3: a secret and why she continued to carry this secret

1156
01:04:40,669 --> 01:04:44,649
Speaker 3: for decades after our father died, she just kept stating

1157
01:04:44,729 --> 01:04:47,869
Speaker 3: because that's what we decided to do when you were born.

1158
01:04:48,489 --> 01:04:51,969
Speaker 3: When we asked her that now, seeing how much pain

1159
01:04:51,989 --> 01:04:54,329
Speaker 3: this has caused us, if she would do it that

1160
01:04:54,409 --> 01:04:56,849
Speaker 3: way all over again, if she had the chance to

1161
01:04:56,909 --> 01:05:00,199
Speaker 3: change things regarding holding the secret, she said that she

1162
01:05:00,259 --> 01:05:04,239
Speaker 3: would do it exactly the same way again. For the

1163
01:05:04,299 --> 01:05:08,439
Speaker 3: second assignment, writing the letter to my sperm donor father,

1164
01:05:08,459 --> 01:05:12,869
Speaker 3: I found it to be cathartic and I was able

1165
01:05:12,929 --> 01:05:18,659
Speaker 3: to express a range of emotions, including excitement, grief, and anger.

1166
01:05:18,679 --> 01:05:22,299
Speaker 3: I was curious about him and what he looks like

1167
01:05:22,479 --> 01:05:26,679
Speaker 3: and his personality, his interests, his family, his medical history.

1168
01:05:26,699 --> 01:05:30,079
Speaker 3: I wanted to know if there are any similarities between

1169
01:05:30,229 --> 01:05:32,989
Speaker 3: us and also if he has ever given thought to

1170
01:05:33,049 --> 01:05:36,929
Speaker 3: how many donor children he may have and if he

1171
01:05:37,009 --> 01:05:41,169
Speaker 3: was at all curious about us, about me. I told

1172
01:05:41,249 --> 01:05:44,609
Speaker 3: him about myself, about my life, about my children, and

1173
01:05:44,669 --> 01:05:46,599
Speaker 3: let him know that it would have meant a lot

1174
01:05:46,639 --> 01:05:50,359
Speaker 3: to me if I had known that he existed. Even

1175
01:05:50,399 --> 01:05:52,259
Speaker 3: if I didn't get to know him, just if I

1176
01:05:52,319 --> 01:05:55,619
Speaker 3: knew that he was out there, it would have been

1177
01:05:56,659 --> 01:06:00,719
Speaker 3: beneficial to me. I found it empowering to write my

1178
01:06:00,759 --> 01:06:05,499
Speaker 3: list of positives regarding this discovery, including the fact that

1179
01:06:05,579 --> 01:06:09,589
Speaker 3: sharing this experience has made my sister and me closer.

1180
01:06:10,809 --> 01:06:14,849
Speaker 3: And I've gotten to speak with some pretty cool, new,

1181
01:06:14,949 --> 01:06:20,369
Speaker 3: closely related family members that I hadn't known about before. Additionally,

1182
01:06:20,389 --> 01:06:24,029
Speaker 3: I think it gives me a sense of relief as

1183
01:06:24,109 --> 01:06:28,029
Speaker 3: it explains why I always felt different. So things finally

1184
01:06:28,109 --> 01:06:33,489
Speaker 3: make more sense. I finally know my story.

1185
01:06:33,509 --> 01:06:37,029
Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie and Guy, this is Kim. I completed my

1186
01:06:37,069 --> 01:06:40,569
Speaker 4: assignments and I wanted to give you the update. Sandra

1187
01:06:40,589 --> 01:06:42,489
Speaker 4: and I went over to our mom's house to give

1188
01:06:42,529 --> 01:06:45,989
Speaker 4: her the new positive narrative of our story. It did

1189
01:06:46,089 --> 01:06:48,749
Speaker 4: not go as well as I had hoped. Mom was

1190
01:06:48,789 --> 01:06:51,979
Speaker 4: kind of closed off, defensive. I told her how brave

1191
01:06:52,039 --> 01:06:54,299
Speaker 4: I thought she and dad were and how much I

1192
01:06:54,359 --> 01:06:57,179
Speaker 4: appreciated the lengths they went through to have a family

1193
01:06:57,519 --> 01:07:00,929
Speaker 4: and that I want to celebrate that story. I told

1194
01:07:00,969 --> 01:07:02,749
Speaker 4: her that I'm very proud of her for what she

1195
01:07:02,789 --> 01:07:04,449
Speaker 4: did and that I want her to be proud of

1196
01:07:04,489 --> 01:07:09,149
Speaker 4: herself too and feel no shame. She then said, I

1197
01:07:09,389 --> 01:07:13,429
Speaker 4: am proud of myself. I feel no shame. So I

1198
01:07:13,469 --> 01:07:15,289
Speaker 4: then asked them, what did it have to be a

1199
01:07:15,349 --> 01:07:19,299
Speaker 4: secret then? And she said, because that's what we decided.

1200
01:07:19,559 --> 01:07:23,239
Speaker 4: I thought you'd be teased. So I guess she was

1201
01:07:23,279 --> 01:07:26,599
Speaker 4: trying to protect us when we were children. But we

1202
01:07:26,719 --> 01:07:29,999
Speaker 4: are 60 years old. I then told her that we

1203
01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:32,179
Speaker 4: want to feel free to share the truth of who

1204
01:07:32,229 --> 01:07:35,429
Speaker 4: we are. So we are telling our cousins the story.

1205
01:07:36,209 --> 01:07:39,469
Speaker 4: And she angrily said, Go ahead and tell your cousins.

1206
01:07:39,789 --> 01:07:40,289
Speaker 3: I don't care.

1207
01:07:40,309 --> 01:07:44,359
Speaker 4: I don't even talk to them. I then got up

1208
01:07:44,419 --> 01:07:47,399
Speaker 4: to leave. I gave her a hug and told her

1209
01:07:47,459 --> 01:07:52,039
Speaker 4: that I loved her. She then said, sorry, in a

1210
01:07:52,099 --> 01:07:56,819
Speaker 4: harsh tone. I said, sorry for what? And she had

1211
01:07:56,899 --> 01:08:01,089
Speaker 4: no response. I said, sorry that we are in pain.

1212
01:08:01,789 --> 01:08:06,199
Speaker 4: And she said, yes. Writing the letter to my biological

1213
01:08:06,269 --> 01:08:09,459
Speaker 4: father to express my grief and loss was both cathartic

1214
01:08:09,639 --> 01:08:13,099
Speaker 4: and healing. I also expressed my gratitude to him for

1215
01:08:13,159 --> 01:08:18,139
Speaker 4: giving his donation so that I can exist. My life

1216
01:08:18,159 --> 01:08:20,899
Speaker 4: has definitely been enriched by this new discovery. There are

1217
01:08:20,939 --> 01:08:23,819
Speaker 4: a lot of positives. Sandra and I are closer now

1218
01:08:23,859 --> 01:08:27,239
Speaker 4: than we have ever been. We have definitely bonded over

1219
01:08:27,299 --> 01:08:32,209
Speaker 4: this experience. We had a very meaningful and emotional conversation

1220
01:08:32,509 --> 01:08:36,549
Speaker 4: with our cousins, and they were extremely comforting and supportive

1221
01:08:36,629 --> 01:08:40,369
Speaker 4: of us and our story. I am really looking forward

1222
01:08:40,409 --> 01:08:46,359
Speaker 4: to getting to know and forming relationships with my many half-siblings. Lastly,

1223
01:08:46,839 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 4: Sandra and I finally feel validated and our lives finally

1224
01:08:50,579 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 4: make sense. We always knew that something was off growing up,

1225
01:08:55,019 --> 01:08:59,579
Speaker 4: but we didn't know what it was. We looked nothing alike.

1226
01:08:59,799 --> 01:09:04,539
Speaker 4: Our personalities were completely different. Everyone always asked us if

1227
01:09:04,579 --> 01:09:10,229
Speaker 4: we were actually full sisters. And now we finally know why.

1228
01:09:11,509 --> 01:09:13,389
Speaker 4: Thank you, Laurie and Guy, for all of your help

1229
01:09:13,449 --> 01:09:13,969
Speaker 4: and advice.

1230
01:09:14,269 --> 01:09:15,909
Speaker 2: We greatly appreciate it.

1231
01:09:20,539 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: I'm glad that they each got back to us separately

1232
01:09:23,999 --> 01:09:26,539
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of overlap in their reports,

1233
01:09:26,579 --> 01:09:29,939
Speaker 1: but there was also a difference. And the first difference

1234
01:09:30,079 --> 01:09:34,929
Speaker 1: was how the mom reacted to the conversation. Sandra said

1235
01:09:34,989 --> 01:09:38,089
Speaker 1: that the mom reacted better than she expected. She expected

1236
01:09:38,109 --> 01:09:40,509
Speaker 1: the mom would yell at them and throw them out

1237
01:09:40,629 --> 01:09:43,369
Speaker 1: of the house. And Kim said that the conversation didn't

1238
01:09:43,409 --> 01:09:46,499
Speaker 1: go as well as she had hoped. So that was

1239
01:09:46,519 --> 01:09:48,879
Speaker 1: interesting just in terms of their expectations. Both of them

1240
01:09:48,919 --> 01:09:51,629
Speaker 1: described how when the mom was asked if she would

1241
01:09:51,669 --> 01:09:54,369
Speaker 1: do anything differently, knowing how much pain holding the secret

1242
01:09:54,409 --> 01:09:59,109
Speaker 1: had caused the daughters, that she said she wouldn't. And

1243
01:09:59,129 --> 01:10:02,539
Speaker 1: I think that they interpreted that as her not seeing

1244
01:10:02,579 --> 01:10:07,099
Speaker 1: their pain, but that moment when the mom said, sorry,

1245
01:10:07,239 --> 01:10:11,499
Speaker 1: even though it was angry. And then Kim said, sorry

1246
01:10:11,539 --> 01:10:14,549
Speaker 1: that we're in a lot of pain. And the mom said, yes,

1247
01:10:15,349 --> 01:10:18,609
Speaker 1: you know that there's so much going on inside of

1248
01:10:18,669 --> 01:10:21,289
Speaker 1: the mom. And I think it's hard for them to

1249
01:10:21,329 --> 01:10:24,149
Speaker 1: see because of their own pain. But I felt so

1250
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:27,839
Speaker 1: much compassion for the whole family when I heard that

1251
01:10:27,929 --> 01:10:30,669
Speaker 1: moment and what it took for the mom, given how

1252
01:10:30,759 --> 01:10:34,219
Speaker 1: rigid she had been on her position, to say, sorry,

1253
01:10:34,359 --> 01:10:37,459
Speaker 1: and then to acknowledge, yes, I'm sorry that I put

1254
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,899
Speaker 1: you through this pain. I agree.

1255
01:10:39,959 --> 01:10:43,819
Speaker 2: I also had compassion for the mother in hearing these

1256
01:10:43,899 --> 01:10:46,779
Speaker 2: voice messages. Because when Kim asked her, why didn't you

1257
01:10:46,819 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 2: tell us when we were adults? The mother wasn't able

1258
01:10:49,659 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 2: to say, because I'd kept a secret for so long,

1259
01:10:52,919 --> 01:10:55,669
Speaker 2: it probably would have felt incredibly scary to come and

1260
01:10:55,709 --> 01:10:58,429
Speaker 2: admit that I had lied to you all your lives

1261
01:10:58,489 --> 01:11:02,089
Speaker 2: and caused you pain. Then I think people at that

1262
01:11:02,149 --> 01:11:05,669
Speaker 2: time came up with all kinds of rationalizations for why

1263
01:11:05,729 --> 01:11:08,549
Speaker 2: they had to keep the secret. And I think that

1264
01:11:08,589 --> 01:11:11,059
Speaker 2: what Kim and Sandra need to understand is that the

1265
01:11:11,119 --> 01:11:14,799
Speaker 2: mom's positions on this are really stuck in time. It's

1266
01:11:14,839 --> 01:11:17,299
Speaker 2: possible that if the dad hadn't died and they could

1267
01:11:17,319 --> 01:11:20,829
Speaker 2: have processed it together, there might have been some change.

1268
01:11:21,329 --> 01:11:23,309
Speaker 2: But I think after the father passed away, then it

1269
01:11:23,369 --> 01:11:27,229
Speaker 2: was not just about maintaining the secret, but maintaining his

1270
01:11:27,549 --> 01:11:30,159
Speaker 2: secret or his shame in some kind of way. And

1271
01:11:30,169 --> 01:11:33,019
Speaker 2: that made it very difficult for the mother to reconsider

1272
01:11:33,739 --> 01:11:35,579
Speaker 2: how she was handling things. Right.

1273
01:11:35,599 --> 01:11:38,399
Speaker 1: Because she had to really grapple with this on her own.

1274
01:11:38,519 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 1: And she was not talking to anybody about this because

1275
01:11:41,619 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 1: she was the sole keeper of that secret at that point.

1276
01:11:45,189 --> 01:11:47,149
Speaker 1: And I think it must have felt very difficult for

1277
01:11:47,189 --> 01:11:50,609
Speaker 1: her in ways she doesn't realize or can't articulate, except

1278
01:11:50,649 --> 01:11:53,779
Speaker 1: there was an opening there when she said sorry and

1279
01:11:53,819 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 1: could acknowledge their pain. I know that's not enough for

1280
01:11:56,639 --> 01:11:58,919
Speaker 1: them right now, but I hope that they take that

1281
01:11:58,999 --> 01:12:00,939
Speaker 1: as an opening. I think there's going to be more

1282
01:12:00,979 --> 01:12:03,919
Speaker 1: of that as the mother sees them be very open

1283
01:12:03,959 --> 01:12:08,309
Speaker 1: and comfortable and relieved by being able to live their

1284
01:12:08,349 --> 01:12:10,169
Speaker 1: lives with their identity being known.

1285
01:12:10,539 --> 01:12:12,799
Speaker 2: The other part I really liked was the letters they

1286
01:12:12,839 --> 01:12:15,619
Speaker 2: wrote to the donors because we asked them to write

1287
01:12:15,679 --> 01:12:19,489
Speaker 2: a letter, but they didn't just state things. They said,

1288
01:12:19,509 --> 01:12:22,049
Speaker 2: here are the questions I would have asked you. Here

1289
01:12:22,089 --> 01:12:24,509
Speaker 2: are the things I would have wanted to know. They

1290
01:12:24,529 --> 01:12:29,249
Speaker 2: were really comprehensive, communicating all the feelings they had, all

1291
01:12:29,269 --> 01:12:32,049
Speaker 2: the questions they had, all the thoughts they had. They

1292
01:12:32,069 --> 01:12:35,599
Speaker 2: were really enumerating the losses and the misses that they

1293
01:12:35,639 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 2: didn't get to experience. And I think that's what made

1294
01:12:38,559 --> 01:12:39,459
Speaker 2: it so cathartic.

1295
01:12:39,739 --> 01:12:42,179
Speaker 1: One of the many losses that happens when you keep

1296
01:12:42,219 --> 01:12:45,879
Speaker 1: that kind of secret for so long is the loss

1297
01:12:46,119 --> 01:12:50,759
Speaker 1: of the ability to have connected with their donors. And

1298
01:12:50,789 --> 01:12:53,949
Speaker 1: that is a huge loss. And so I think that

1299
01:12:54,209 --> 01:12:57,329
Speaker 1: in these letters, they were able to begin the process

1300
01:12:57,509 --> 01:13:00,469
Speaker 1: of doing some of that grief work. They were so beautiful,

1301
01:13:00,749 --> 01:13:04,009
Speaker 1: what they described. And I hope that they'll continue to

1302
01:13:04,069 --> 01:13:06,049
Speaker 1: do some of that grief work because there's more to

1303
01:13:06,089 --> 01:13:08,369
Speaker 1: do there. But I think this was a really, really

1304
01:13:08,839 --> 01:13:11,259
Speaker 1: positive and healing beginning to that.

1305
01:13:11,829 --> 01:13:14,029
Speaker 2: And I was very heartened to hear that when it

1306
01:13:14,089 --> 01:13:17,829
Speaker 2: came to looking at what the empowering aspects of this

1307
01:13:18,229 --> 01:13:22,989
Speaker 2: were for them, they were so meaningful. First among those

1308
01:13:23,029 --> 01:13:26,529
Speaker 2: where they brought them closer as sisters, but it also

1309
01:13:26,589 --> 01:13:29,589
Speaker 2: connected them to their cousins in a new kind of

1310
01:13:29,649 --> 01:13:32,959
Speaker 2: way that they're excited about. It presented them with all

1311
01:13:32,979 --> 01:13:36,619
Speaker 2: these half siblings that they now have relationships with and

1312
01:13:36,639 --> 01:13:39,239
Speaker 2: have an option to form relationships with.

1313
01:13:39,999 --> 01:13:41,559
Speaker 1: And I think the biggest piece of this is what

1314
01:13:41,599 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 1: they both said in different ways. Sandra said, I finally

1315
01:13:44,599 --> 01:13:48,889
Speaker 1: know my story. And Kim said, our lives finally make sense.

1316
01:13:49,529 --> 01:13:52,149
Speaker 1: And that's the story that we hear over and over

1317
01:13:52,289 --> 01:13:55,369
Speaker 1: when there's been a big family secret. And then when

1318
01:13:55,389 --> 01:13:59,249
Speaker 1: you finally get the validation, oh, it makes sense now.

1319
01:13:59,349 --> 01:14:01,909
Speaker 1: People always wondered if we were sisters or I didn't

1320
01:14:01,929 --> 01:14:03,839
Speaker 1: really feel a part of the family in the way

1321
01:14:03,879 --> 01:14:06,279
Speaker 1: that I thought I would. Whatever it is, just something

1322
01:14:06,379 --> 01:14:11,289
Speaker 1: seemed not right. I finally know my story. Our lives

1323
01:14:11,349 --> 01:14:14,689
Speaker 1: finally make sense. When we think about the positives of

1324
01:14:14,709 --> 01:14:18,549
Speaker 1: this experience, despite all the pain, that's the positive right there.

1325
01:14:19,169 --> 01:14:21,669
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that now the mystery has been

1326
01:14:21,729 --> 01:14:25,149
Speaker 1: solved and they can move forward knowing the truth and

1327
01:14:25,169 --> 01:14:26,729
Speaker 1: to feel empowered by that truth.

1328
01:14:27,509 --> 01:14:30,039
Speaker 2: And the last thing I think is that by telling

1329
01:14:30,079 --> 01:14:32,999
Speaker 2: the mom that they're telling the cousins and then telling

1330
01:14:33,039 --> 01:14:36,319
Speaker 2: the cousins and then having these conversations, there is no

1331
01:14:36,799 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 2: more secret. And that is an incredible relief.

1332
01:14:45,609 --> 01:14:48,389
Speaker 1: Next week, a young woman who's now with a healthy

1333
01:14:48,449 --> 01:14:52,169
Speaker 1: partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had

1334
01:14:52,229 --> 01:14:52,769
Speaker 1: years ago.

1335
01:14:53,409 --> 01:14:55,449
Speaker 3: Like, I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.

1336
01:14:55,689 --> 01:14:58,169
Speaker 5: I don't want to talk about how I had an

1337
01:14:58,229 --> 01:15:01,539
Speaker 5: abusive partner for three years of my life. I want

1338
01:15:01,579 --> 01:15:04,459
Speaker 5: to forget about it on the outside, but on the inside,

1339
01:15:04,819 --> 01:15:05,899
Speaker 5: I can't forget about it.

1340
01:15:06,649 --> 01:15:09,719
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1341
01:15:09,759 --> 01:15:12,639
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please

1342
01:15:12,679 --> 01:15:15,359
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1343
01:15:15,619 --> 01:15:18,879
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1344
01:15:18,919 --> 01:15:20,079
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1345
01:15:20,739 --> 01:15:22,819
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1346
01:15:23,299 --> 01:15:30,089
Speaker 2: email us at laurieandguy at iheartmedia.com. Our executive producer is

1347
01:15:30,149 --> 01:15:34,669
Speaker 2: Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional

1348
01:15:34,729 --> 01:15:39,309
Speaker 2: editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington, and Zachary Fisher.

1349
01:15:39,809 --> 01:15:44,389
Speaker 2: Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez, and Silver Lifton.

1350
01:15:45,009 --> 01:15:48,599
Speaker 2: And special thanks to our podcast fairy godmother, Katie Couric.

1351
01:15:49,039 --> 01:15:51,119
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at our next session.

1352
01:15:51,879 --> 01:15:54,519
Speaker 2: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.