1
00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm Laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,879
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

3
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:10,039
Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

4
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,400
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

5
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

6
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,079
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

7
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

8
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,720
Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

9
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,560
Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

10
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:27,320
Speaker 1: in their lives.

11
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,199
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

12
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,199
Speaker 2: we're in session with sisters Sondra and Kim, who discover

13
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 2: a family secret that their parents held for sixty years.

14
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,880
Speaker 3: I internally just felt like there's something that's not right here.

15
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,440
Speaker 3: We were asked our whole lives if we had the

16
00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 3: same parents. First.

17
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

18
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,000
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is

19
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

20
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: Submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use

21
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,679
Speaker 1: it in part orn full, and we may edit it

22
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 1: for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All

23
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,640
Speaker 1: names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

24
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,639
Speaker 2: Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So who do we have visiting

25
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:17,360
Speaker 2: us this week?

26
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,119
Speaker 1: Well, this week we have two sisters and their names

27
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,120
Speaker 1: are Sandra and Kim, and their letter goes like this,

28
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,160
Speaker 1: Dear therapists, My sister and I very recently found out

29
00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,720
Speaker 1: that we are donor conceived through two anonymous donors. She

30
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,919
Speaker 1: is fifty nine and I am sixty one. We found

31
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,119
Speaker 1: out quite accidentally through ancestry and twenty three and meters.

32
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 1: We have discovered not only that we are half sisters

33
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,760
Speaker 1: from different donors, but that we each have many other

34
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,959
Speaker 1: half siblings and other family members. Our mom, who is

35
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,520
Speaker 1: now eighty seven, never told us and has spent our

36
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: entire lives actively lying about our parentage and our medical history,

37
00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,760
Speaker 1: as well as embellishing the stories of her pregnancies. Our father,

38
00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: who we grew up with, died thirty eight years ago.

39
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,279
Speaker 1: As you may imagine, finding this out at our ages

40
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,880
Speaker 1: has been extremely upsetting on many levels. We feel entirely

41
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 1: betrayed by our own mother. Any help you could possibly

42
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,720
Speaker 1: offer would be much appreciated.

43
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,360
Speaker 2: Sondra, Well, here's another one. Of these situations in which

44
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 2: DNA testing reveals something about people's history that they didn't know.

45
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,080
Speaker 2: And the issue is it really causes a psychological seismic

46
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 2: shift almost that makes you potentially question so many aspects

47
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,960
Speaker 2: about who you are and so many aspects of your

48
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,600
Speaker 2: relationships here with her mother, probably her father, her sister,

49
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,639
Speaker 2: all these new people in her life. So it's this

50
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:46,079
Speaker 2: one discovery that can truly be incredibly difficult to process

51
00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,000
Speaker 2: and manage and think through. I am glad that we're

52
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 2: going to be talking to both these sisters, because clearly

53
00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 2: this is something that would be easier for them to

54
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:54,040
Speaker 2: process together.

55
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 1: What I think is so interesting is that whenever people

56
00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,800
Speaker 1: discover that there's been a secret in the family, it

57
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,560
Speaker 1: does make you question what was real, what was not real.

58
00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,440
Speaker 1: And she mentioned that it's very upending to get this

59
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: information at their ages, but I think at any age

60
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,880
Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing where you start to really

61
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,799
Speaker 1: wonder what does this all mean? So I'm really interested

62
00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,280
Speaker 1: to talk to them and explore that with them.

63
00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go talk to them.

64
00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

65
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Lori Gottlieb.

66
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dea Therapists.

67
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,240
Speaker 1: Hi, Sandra, Hi Kim, welcome to the show.

68
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 4: Hi, Hi, thank you for having us our pleasure.

69
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 2: It's great to have you both. Would like to start

70
00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 2: with a little bit of a snapshot what your lives

71
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 2: were like before you found this out. So if we

72
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 2: rewind a few months and I asked you, tell me

73
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,960
Speaker 2: a little bit about your lives, each of you tell

74
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 2: us and so we have a picture of the context

75
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,160
Speaker 2: within which this happened. Sandra, maybe you can start.

76
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm a teacher. I taught high school for the

77
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 3: past ten years, and I taught before that. I'm divorced.

78
00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 3: I have a roommate, I have a long distance boyfriend.

79
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:19,320
Speaker 3: I have two grown daughters in their twenties. They don't

80
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:19,800
Speaker 3: live with me.

81
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,719
Speaker 1: What about you, Kim, tell us a little bit about

82
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:23,400
Speaker 1: your life.

83
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,520
Speaker 4: Happy life. My husband and I are both retired. We

84
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 4: are empty nesters. We are free to do what we want.

85
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,720
Speaker 1: Everything was going great, and how well are your kids?

86
00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:35,839
Speaker 3: Twenty eight and thirty two.

87
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 2: Would like to hear a little bit about how this

88
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,400
Speaker 2: was discovered, who found out, how it was communicated to

89
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 2: the other.

90
00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,480
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm the one who quite accidentally found out. I

91
00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,760
Speaker 3: actually went on Ancestry in twenty sixteen, kind of just

92
00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 3: for fun to see if there was anything interesting. Nothing

93
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,359
Speaker 3: stood out to me really on there, and I actually

94
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 3: had not been back on Ancestry in years. So I

95
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,160
Speaker 3: went back on and the first person under DNA relative

96
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 3: I saw was one of my children who did it.

97
00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 3: She comes up as my daughter at fifty percent shared DNA,

98
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,360
Speaker 3: and underneath her there is a man's name who I've

99
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,000
Speaker 3: never seen, who came up as my second closest relative

100
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,800
Speaker 3: at twenty seven percent shared DNA. So of course I

101
00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,599
Speaker 3: was a little flipped out. Ancestry, I think, tries to

102
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 3: soften the blow because they list him as a first cousin.

103
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 3: At that time, we all looked up what twenty seven

104
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,839
Speaker 3: percent meant, and we saw that means that this person

105
00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,359
Speaker 3: is not in fact a first cousin, but a half sibling.

106
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 3: That this man would be my brother. So I called

107
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,560
Speaker 3: my sister and I asked her if she ever heard

108
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 3: of this person's name before, you know who is he?

109
00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,599
Speaker 3: And she hadn't. And I sent him a message to

110
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 3: Ancestry and said, hey, I saw you came up at

111
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,600
Speaker 3: twenty seven percent, I don't recognize your name, and he

112
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,719
Speaker 3: immediately messaged me back and said, Hi, here's my cell number.

113
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,080
Speaker 3: Let's discuss.

114
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:16,200
Speaker 1: So he knew.

115
00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,480
Speaker 3: He knew. So at first we thought, oh, this can't

116
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,719
Speaker 3: be right, you know, before we spoke with him, maybe

117
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,120
Speaker 3: he's some secret love child of you know, one of

118
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,719
Speaker 3: my uncles. And then the twenty seven percent just kept

119
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,359
Speaker 3: telling me that's not true. So I went to my

120
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,440
Speaker 3: sister's house and we called him together and talked to

121
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,799
Speaker 3: him for a long time. That's how I first learned

122
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 3: the true story.

123
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what he said on that phone call?

124
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, he was very gentle with us. He was

125
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 3: very very kind, very gregarious. And the first thing he

126
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,159
Speaker 3: asked us was, we're your father and obgyn at the

127
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 3: Specific hospital in Manhattan, and we said no, why, and

128
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 3: he said, let me tell you a story. So he

129
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:21,760
Speaker 3: told us that in twenty twenty, his wife had read

130
00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:27,000
Speaker 3: a book called Inheritance and it was about DNA donors,

131
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 3: and his wife and his mom were close, and his

132
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,520
Speaker 3: wife told his mom, his ninety plus year old mom,

133
00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 3: about this book, and she confessed, well, actually that's how

134
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,160
Speaker 3: I had my son from a sperm donor, we weren't

135
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,440
Speaker 3: able to have children, and then he proceeded to go

136
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,280
Speaker 3: on ancestry and do his DNA. So he told us

137
00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 3: the story, recommended we read this book, and then he

138
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 3: started asking us questions about our father, after asking if

139
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 3: he had been a doctor or an OBGYN residence, because

140
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,440
Speaker 3: that seems to be the pattern with everyone involved with this.

141
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,120
Speaker 3: That's who all the donors are turning out to be

142
00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 3: from this one specific hospital in this time period.

143
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,800
Speaker 2: They were all residents at the hospital at the time,

144
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 2: and that's why they were donating.

145
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,360
Speaker 3: They were all OBGYN residents in the fifties and sixties.

146
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,360
Speaker 3: And we said, no, he wasn't. So he just said,

147
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 3: here's what I think you two should do, twenty three

148
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,600
Speaker 3: and me because that's where all of the other half

149
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 3: siblings are. Just he also happened to be on both sites,

150
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 3: and you're going to find out all these names on there,

151
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:48,840
Speaker 3: and he gave us a list of names, who, of

152
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,720
Speaker 3: course all turned out to be my half siblings and

153
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 3: some of their children. Oh, and then he told us

154
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,680
Speaker 3: that his best guess is that the two of us

155
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 3: are going to turn out to be half sisters and

156
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:03,720
Speaker 3: not full sisters.

157
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 1: What was that like. When he said that might be

158
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:07,880
Speaker 1: the case, and Kim.

159
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:08,840
Speaker 2: Would like to hear from you.

160
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,840
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe at all that this story could be true.

161
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 4: I thought maybe he was a love child from my

162
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 4: father and his mother. But I thought, there's no way

163
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,240
Speaker 4: we're from donors. Our mother would have told us that

164
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,800
Speaker 4: there is not a chance that could be true. And

165
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,240
Speaker 4: then when he kept saying that it is true, I thought, well, okay,

166
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,680
Speaker 4: perhaps Sandra is from a donor, but I truly believe

167
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 4: that I was from the man who raised me. And

168
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,079
Speaker 4: so when he said that you're going to be from

169
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,959
Speaker 4: different fathers and they're going to be different donors, I thought,

170
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 4: no way.

171
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 3: My father definitely was My father.

172
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,680
Speaker 1: Was the reason that you felt that this was definitely

173
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,880
Speaker 1: your father because you had a closer relationship with him

174
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 1: than Sandra did.

175
00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,560
Speaker 4: I think I felt closer to him. I also felt

176
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 4: closer to his family. And if this story was true,

177
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,840
Speaker 4: that meant my grandmother wasn't my biological grandmother, My aunts

178
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 4: weren't my biological aunts, My cousins weren't my biological cousins.

179
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 4: Like I could not believe any of that. We were

180
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,959
Speaker 4: very close growing up. We grew up within five minutes

181
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,440
Speaker 4: of now. We saw them every week. There's no way

182
00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:20,560
Speaker 4: that this story could be true.

183
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,440
Speaker 1: Sandra, What was your relationship like with your father?

184
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 3: I had a pretty good relationship with my father. I

185
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,439
Speaker 3: mean it had its ups and downs. Well, I think

186
00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 3: I probably felt more like the black sheep of the family.

187
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,320
Speaker 3: I always felt different growing up. I internally just just

188
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 3: felt like there's something that's not right here. Besides the

189
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 3: superficial that the two of us don't look like, we're

190
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,680
Speaker 3: also very different from each other. And I felt different

191
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,600
Speaker 3: from my father's family, even though they were very good

192
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,200
Speaker 3: to us and kind to us, something just always felt off.

193
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 3: We were asked our whole lives if we had the

194
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,960
Speaker 3: same parents. Yeah, we do, Well, you don't look alike

195
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 3: and you're so different from each other. I mean it

196
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 3: even went as far as my sister used to ask

197
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 3: my mom if she was adopted. Yes, I did.

198
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 2: Why Kim, did you ask that question? Because you're saying

199
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,000
Speaker 2: you felt really close to your father on his side

200
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 2: of the family. Were you feeling differently regarding your mom?

201
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 4: Because I didn't look like anyone, and so I kept thinking,

202
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:26,920
Speaker 4: am I adopted?

203
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,320
Speaker 3: I'm not adopted? Right?

204
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,920
Speaker 4: And then she would say no, of course you're not adopted.

205
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,720
Speaker 4: So I was like, oh, okay, but I knew something

206
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:34,319
Speaker 4: was off.

207
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,199
Speaker 1: This is what happens when there are secrets in a family.

208
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 1: We hear this all the time, that people always know

209
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,760
Speaker 1: that something is off. That's the phrase that you just used,

210
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,560
Speaker 1: and that's the phrase we always hear something was off.

211
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,720
Speaker 1: I couldn't put my finger on it, but I knew

212
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,080
Speaker 1: that there was something that I just couldn't articulate that

213
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,280
Speaker 1: didn't feel as it seemed.

214
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 3: That's exactly right.

215
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,000
Speaker 2: So, Kim, this man is telling you be prepared. You

216
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,640
Speaker 2: might only be half sisters tell us what happened from them.

217
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,640
Speaker 4: So then I went to do the twenty three ye

218
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,640
Speaker 4: ME test. I ordered it immediately and you know, waited

219
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 4: anxiously for those results. And when they came in, I

220
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 4: was completely shocked. Even though I was told to be prepared,

221
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe it.

222
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:23,760
Speaker 1: What were the results.

223
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:25,480
Speaker 3: The results were.

224
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,440
Speaker 4: That I also was from a donor and not the

225
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 4: same one as my sister. And when I opened up

226
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,080
Speaker 4: the results at the first person he comes up in

227
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 4: order of how much DNA you share, And this person

228
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,040
Speaker 4: comes up at the very top and it says fifty

229
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,600
Speaker 4: percent share DNA, this is your father, has his name

230
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 4: Robert and his picture, and I just gasped.

231
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it.

232
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,560
Speaker 1: What happened when you saw not only his name but

233
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 1: his picture.

234
00:12:58,440 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 3: I was just in shock.

235
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 2: Were there any similarities you saw in the image that

236
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,600
Speaker 2: made you feel like, oh, maybe this is my father

237
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 2: or did it feel like, no, this man is not.

238
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,280
Speaker 2: Like how much did it resonate that this person actually

239
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 2: is your biological father?

240
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 3: It felt like it was not.

241
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 2: So there was a resistance to it, to that notion.

242
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,280
Speaker 2: Even though the DNA is there at fifty percent, it

243
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:20,480
Speaker 2: just doesn't feel real.

244
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,439
Speaker 4: Yes, when I opened up my results, I figured I'm

245
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,800
Speaker 4: going to see someone on there from my father's side

246
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,800
Speaker 4: of the family who maybe just did the test and

247
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,320
Speaker 4: never told me they did. That's what I was expecting

248
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 4: to see. And he came up at the top at

249
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,960
Speaker 4: fifty percent, and then underneath a whole bunch of half

250
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,440
Speaker 4: siblings came up at like twenty five percent.

251
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,920
Speaker 2: When you say a whole bunch and Soandra, you also

252
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:44,680
Speaker 2: said there was a list of were talking two or three,

253
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,040
Speaker 2: were talking, five, six, ten, Like give us a sense

254
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,840
Speaker 2: of how many people now, yeah, for me it's about

255
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,000
Speaker 2: ten and Sondra.

256
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,600
Speaker 3: For you, I think it's about four or five. And

257
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 3: some obvious nephews or nieces came up also. I'm sure

258
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,080
Speaker 3: there or more out there and they just haven't been

259
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,720
Speaker 3: discovered yet. But what was really shocking to me was

260
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,480
Speaker 3: when I did twenty three and meters afterwards also at

261
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 3: the same time, and we're talking just about two months ago,

262
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 3: and to open my account and to see my sister Kim,

263
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,600
Speaker 3: who I grew up with, with her picture and her name,

264
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 3: to say half sister, even though I knew it was

265
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,600
Speaker 3: going to come up, it was shocking. It was jarring.

266
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,480
Speaker 4: Yes, I felt the same way to see that she's

267
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,960
Speaker 4: twenty five percent and so are all of these strangers.

268
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 2: What were those first conversations like between the two of

269
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,240
Speaker 2: you once that confirmation came in and you knew at

270
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:44,480
Speaker 2: least what you were dealing with.

271
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,520
Speaker 3: She called me and I was actually with one of

272
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,640
Speaker 3: my daughters in the car, and we were in shock.

273
00:14:52,960 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 3: I mean, we started from shocking, disbelief and anger, grief.

274
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,160
Speaker 3: I'm mostly in grief in the grief part, trying to

275
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:10,320
Speaker 3: accept now, but we're angry and angry at our mother.

276
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 3: Very disappointed, and for you, Kim, after shock, I also

277
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 3: felt to anger because how could she not tell me?

278
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 3: And the truth is I gave her.

279
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 4: Every opportunity because after Sandra got the result from ancestry

280
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 4: and knew that she had a half sibling, and he

281
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 4: had told me that this probably was going to be

282
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 4: my story as well, I thought, Okay, I'm going to

283
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 4: tell my mother that I'm going to do twenty three

284
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,160
Speaker 4: and me, I told her, well, we want to find

285
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 4: out about our health. But I said, and also, I

286
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 4: think it's so interesting. They give you all of the ancestors,

287
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 4: They tell you everybody who you are related to, and

288
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 4: the present of DNA you share, and they will say

289
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 4: what relationship they are to you. She had a cousin

290
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,600
Speaker 4: years ago who took probably years to draw out a

291
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,480
Speaker 4: whole family tree, and I said, in the family tree

292
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,360
Speaker 4: will just pop up on the computer. So this way

293
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 4: she knew exactly what I would find out. So I thought,

294
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 4: if this story is true, I'm giving her now until

295
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 4: I get my results, three to four weeks for her

296
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,880
Speaker 4: to come clean, because I wanted to hear it from her.

297
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 3: And not from a computer, not from a stranger. And

298
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,200
Speaker 3: she did not come through for me.

299
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,040
Speaker 1: Is there a reason that in that conversation instead of

300
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 1: testing her to see if she would come clean to you,

301
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 1: was there a reason that you didn't want to say

302
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: to her, Hey, mom, Sandra did this DNA test. This

303
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 1: is what she found. I'm now doing a DNA test.

304
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 1: Is there something that we don't know?

305
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 3: Well?

306
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,040
Speaker 4: I think part of it was I was thinking perhaps

307
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 4: my father was the donor, and I thought, what if

308
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 4: she doesn't know that, And so I figured I'll just

309
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 4: throw it out there, see what she says. But she

310
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 4: didn't say anything. So then I thought, I'm not sure

311
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,119
Speaker 4: what's going on, and perhaps he really was my biological father.

312
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 1: When you say she didn't say anything, what did she

313
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: actually say?

314
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,160
Speaker 4: She mentioned about the health. She said, Oh, I don't

315
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 4: know why you would want to know that beforehand. I

316
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 4: like to be in the dark.

317
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,320
Speaker 1: So she did say something. When you said she said nothing,

318
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 1: she was actually trying to dissuade you from getting the

319
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,520
Speaker 1: information because she knew what would come up.

320
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 4: Probably yeah, But she just said, you know, she likes

321
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,200
Speaker 4: to be in the dark about everything.

322
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,639
Speaker 1: She was hoping you would not take the DNA test.

323
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,720
Speaker 2: Probably, So tell us what happened once you have those results.

324
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,120
Speaker 2: How did you decide when to speak to her, how

325
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 2: to talk to her. We'd like to hear how that

326
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:45,560
Speaker 2: went down.

327
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,080
Speaker 3: Well. I just want to add also that I told

328
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 3: her before Kim that I was doing twenty three and meters,

329
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,959
Speaker 3: and my sister just told her more about what we

330
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,159
Speaker 3: would find. I told her, I'm doing it because I

331
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,960
Speaker 3: really want to get the health panel, but it will

332
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 3: also show me who my relatives are and our ancestry.

333
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 3: And her response was you believe that stuff? I said, yeah, mom,

334
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 3: it's science. And that was it. But there was another

335
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 3: point in twenty sixteen when I did the original ancestry test,

336
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 3: and this comes up in the conversation with what you

337
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 3: asked I. I told her in twenty sixteen that I

338
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 3: was doing ancestry and she yelled at me. She got

339
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 3: very angry with me and said that you know you

340
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 3: already know what your ancestry is. Why would you spend

341
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,240
Speaker 3: your money on that? And I said, I just want

342
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 3: to do it. She was livid with me.

343
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,919
Speaker 2: So there was a real pattern there of her trying

344
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,600
Speaker 2: to dissuade you each from doing these kinds of tests,

345
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,640
Speaker 2: from finding out what she probably anticipated you might find. Out.

346
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 1: Yes, So what happened once you got the results of

347
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 1: the tests each of you? Did you go and talk

348
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 1: to your mom again with the results we did.

349
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 3: We discussed it between us for a few days and

350
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 3: then decided today's the day. About three or four days later,

351
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 3: we're going to go over to her house and see her.

352
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,240
Speaker 3: We see each other a lot, we talk all the time.

353
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 3: So I texted her, I said, we're coming over to

354
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 3: see her. We both got there and we told her

355
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,679
Speaker 3: sit down on the couch and we took out some

356
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,639
Speaker 3: chairs and sat in her living room across from her,

357
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 3: and my sister told her, well, we got our twenty

358
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,160
Speaker 3: three and me test back. Mom, is there anything you'd

359
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 3: like to share with us? I told her that we

360
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 3: were confused and shocked by our results. She said, what

361
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 3: could you have found out? I don't know what you're

362
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,679
Speaker 3: talking about. So she still wasn't coming clean, and she

363
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,440
Speaker 3: had to know that's why we're there. She was never

364
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 3: ever going to tell us. She was taking it to

365
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,199
Speaker 3: the grief. So she denied it, and she said, I

366
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 3: don't know what you could have found out. And after

367
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 3: a few times for saying that, I just couldn't hold

368
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 3: it back. Anymore. And I said, how about that, My

369
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 3: poor sister has to open up her twenty three and

370
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 3: meis and have it say, here's your father with his

371
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 3: picture and his name, and to see all her half

372
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 3: siblings and for me to see that she's my half sister.

373
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 3: Let's start there, Mom, do you want to explain that?

374
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,160
Speaker 3: Then she said it's true.

375
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 4: Finally, I said so, in other words, you weren't going

376
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 4: to confess until you were caught. And she said that's right,

377
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 4: because she said your father and I had a pact.

378
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,679
Speaker 4: We were going to tell no one, So she was

379
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,639
Speaker 4: never going to tell us until we atally told her

380
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 4: what we found out.

381
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 3: She said, I was praying, and our mother doesn't pray, Okay,

382
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 3: I was praying you wouldn't find out. We were never

383
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 3: going to tell you, and I didn't want anyone from

384
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 3: your father's family to ever know this. And let me

385
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 3: tell you, there are only a few people left, only

386
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 3: a few cousins, and they don't live near us, and

387
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 3: she's not even in contact with them.

388
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 1: Did she explain to you why they had made this

389
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 1: pact and why it was so important that nobody find out. No,

390
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 1: it sounds like she and your father really loved you both,

391
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,479
Speaker 1: and so I'm wondering if you both were curious at

392
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: all underneath all of the anger and sense of shock

393
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 1: and betrayal. I wonder if you were curious about why

394
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 1: they might have made that packed. In other words, maybe

395
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 1: they were trying to protect you or do you have

396
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: any sense of what their reasoning is? As much as

397
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: you disagree with it, did you have any curiosity about that?

398
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 3: Yes, I do have curiosity about that.

399
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 4: And we haven't spoken to her about this since that day,

400
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 4: and I don't know if I ever want to bring

401
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 4: it up with her again.

402
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 3: But I am curious why it had to be so secretive.

403
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 3: I actually know the answer to that, not from her personally,

404
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,199
Speaker 3: but from all the research we've done since then, and

405
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 3: from the people that we know who we've spoken with,

406
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 3: like my sister's siblings. A few of them got to

407
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 3: talk to her father. Her biological father only died two

408
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 3: years ago, and from what he said and the other said,

409
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: records were never kept. There was just a sign up sheep,

410
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 3: and it was supposed to be a secret. From what

411
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: I understand, back in the sixties and maybe the seventies,

412
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 3: no one was supposed to be told, which is outrageous

413
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 3: that we're denied our medical records, our biological history. So

414
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that she was told not to say anything

415
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 3: because of that at the time. But the problem I

416
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 3: have is she knows this is not the sixties or

417
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 3: the seventies, and that she purposely was withheld the information.

418
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,479
Speaker 3: And our father, who raised us died thirty eight years ago,

419
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 3: and from what we've read, most of the moms who

420
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 3: were alive after the father's died told the children the

421
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 3: truth about their parentage, and our mothers still didn't.

422
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 4: Might have siblings have now shared with me letters from

423
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 4: our biological father because they did get to speak with

424
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 4: him and exchange letters and to video calls with him

425
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 4: and all that. And he said everything was anonymous. No

426
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 4: one knew who the sperm donor was, and the sperm

427
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 4: donor had no idea who was receiving the sperm. That's

428
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 4: just how it was back then. It was very secretive,

429
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 4: which could just be maybe why my parents wanted it

430
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 4: so secretive. I'll assume the doctors said this is a

431
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 4: very secretive thing, don't tell anyone.

432
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: So that was two months ago. What else transpired in

433
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: that conversation and what has your contact been like with

434
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: her since then.

435
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 4: What had transpired was that she was very important to

436
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 4: her that we do not tell our first cousins on

437
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 4: our father's side this story. I don't know why it

438
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 4: still has to be so secretive. She just said, don't

439
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 4: tell your cousins, and I'm trying to figure out, well,

440
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 4: does she have the right to tell me that? Is

441
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 4: it her secret? Is it my secret? Who owns this secret?

442
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 4: Can I live my true life and not have to

443
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 4: hide my identsity?

444
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: What I find so interesting about this is both of

445
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: you had so many questions, and you came over to

446
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: talk to your mom about what you had discovered, and

447
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: neither of you asked all of the questions that were

448
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: swirling around in your mind. Is that something that has

449
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: been the relationship with your parents growing up where there

450
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of open communication in general, because there

451
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: were so many questions that you had, and you're making

452
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: so many guesses about what the answers are without having

453
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: asked her. When you had the opportunity to ask her.

454
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: We did ask her, and she just kept repeating the

455
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 3: same things. It was a pact I made with your father.

456
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 3: It was a packed that was the same answer that

457
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 3: kept coming up.

458
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: Well, Sandra, I mean the question such as, why can't

459
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: we tell Dad's side of the family, Why can't we

460
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: tell the cousins? That was a question, but you didn't

461
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: ask her. Do you know why?

462
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't ask.

463
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: Lourie's asking you why you didn't ask it.

464
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 3: Our mom is generally very secretive, and when you try

465
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 3: to push for more answers, she sometimes just shuts off.

466
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 3: And I can tell you that through the years, she

467
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: has told me that I tell my children too much.

468
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: I mean, my children are adults now. She has repeatedly said,

469
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 3: you don't need to tell them everything. You tell them

470
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: too much. So I understand the kind of person that

471
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 3: I'm dealing with. I also understand she is a product

472
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 3: of her generation. She's almost eighty eight. But she's very secretive.

473
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: The secret was more important to her than our medical history.

474
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I've asked her so many times about different

475
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 3: medical things and she will say nothing on either side

476
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 3: of the family. And she also has embellished her pregnancy

477
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: stories that we never asked to hear through the years,

478
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 3: with lies about how she got pregnant and it was

479
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: so easy, this and that. She's told us stories about

480
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 3: cousins she hadn't the past, who are doctors who were

481
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 3: sperm downers when they were medical students. And we've always

482
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,479
Speaker 3: told her we would always want to know the truth

483
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 3: about anything. We've told her over and over we don't

484
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 3: like to be in the dark, and she always says, well,

485
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 3: I like to be and we say, but we're not

486
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: you mom. But when we confronted her, she didn't remember

487
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: telling us those donor stories are.

488
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: So, she claimed, sore you sounded angry at the beginning

489
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: of that conversation with her, were able to express that

490
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: you were angry and upset and hurt and disappointed?

491
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 3: I told her I was hurt. I told her I

492
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 3: was angry, And at the end of the conversation I

493
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: will say, I said, and do you have anything else

494
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: further that you would like to add to this? And

495
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: she said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I think, to me,

496
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 3: it was like when you asked a toddler to say

497
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: they're sorry and they're not and they say it. I

498
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: really believe she was sorry she got caught. I still

499
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 3: think that she thinks she did the right thing.

500
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: And Kim, what were you able to express to your

501
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: mom in that conversation about how you were feeling.

502
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 3: She knew I was hurt.

503
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 4: I was really most worried about her because of her agent.

504
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 4: I didn't want to upset her. So you know, Sandra

505
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 4: was definitely angry, and I was taking the other role,

506
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 4: like I was feeling bad for Mom and worried about her,

507
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 4: and so you know, Mom was upset. She just said,

508
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 4: I'm afraid you won't love me anymore. So I was like, no,

509
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 4: I love you. I'll always love you, Mom, and I

510
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 4: hugged her, So it's like I was consoling her, but

511
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 4: I was actually really hurting inside.

512
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 2: And you said you didn't think she knew that, but

513
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: you didn't express it, probably.

514
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: Not as much as I should have. Yeah, that's because

515
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: Sandra was pretty angry.

516
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: So you felt like she couldn't take the feelings of

517
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: both of you at the same time.

518
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was afraid.

519
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the end of that conversation, she said she

520
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: was sorry in a way that Sandra you didn't feel

521
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: was genuine.

522
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: I don't really think that she is able to comprehend

523
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 3: how egregious what she did was, and I don't think

524
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: at her age that she is going to get it.

525
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: We talked for about an hour and a half that day,

526
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: and we've seen her and talked to her a lot

527
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: since then, but not about that. Oh one thing, I

528
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 3: do want to say that I remember my sister did

529
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: one more time. You did talk to her about the

530
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 3: next day, and she asked her, weren't you worried that

531
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: we could maybe accidentally date one of our brothers. I mean,

532
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: my sister has a lot of brothers. Oh, that's right.

533
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: I did say that to her, right, I forgot about that.

534
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 4: She said it never crossed their minds because I have

535
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 4: a lot of siblings. We all grew up in the

536
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: same city, and these are only the ones who've done

537
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 4: the DNA tests. There could be dozens more of us

538
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 4: out there, so she was nu. It never crossed her

539
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 4: mind that we would possibly meet and eat someone who

540
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 4: had seen biological father as us, which is very dangerous.

541
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,239
Speaker 1: Did she explain that the reason that they did it

542
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: was because your father was infertile?

543
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: We did at the time was a point of shame

544
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: for a lot of men, and that's probably related to

545
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: why that was a secret. I'm curious though about the

546
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: fact you said the next day you had a bit

547
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: more of the conversation, but since then, You've seen her

548
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,719
Speaker 2: multiple times and this hasn't come up. So since then,

549
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,959
Speaker 2: everyone's pretending like everything's okay. How come you don't have

550
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: to go in there with guns blazing or with guilt bombs.

551
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: But to sweep it under the rug so quickly and

552
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: to pretend that now all is well when that this

553
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: isn't the thing you're thinking about all the time seems

554
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: a little unusual, and I'm curious about why you're doing that.

555
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: I could say for me, I am never like this,

556
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: and it is only in this instance that I've been

557
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 3: like this because of her aid. But the other reason

558
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: is I don't think I'll be able to get thurther her.

559
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 3: She doesn't under understand how knowing this could have changed

560
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: the trajectory of our lives. And she can't give me

561
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: those years back of my life walking around not knowing

562
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 3: who I really was. You know, when you asked about

563
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 3: our childhood before, we were never alotted that much. I mean,

564
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: we were both straight A students. I probably would have

565
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 3: made different choices. I know this might sound a little strange,

566
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: but if I had known that my father was a doctor,

567
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: I might have had a little bit more self esteem

568
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: and confidence in myself that I didn't have as a

569
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: seventeen year old. I didn't have until much later in life.

570
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: So I feel like I don't even want to go

571
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: into it with her anymore, even though yes, we are

572
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: taking the hit personally to ourselves by not addressing it

573
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: with her again.

574
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: You said that had you known this as young women,

575
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: you think the trajectory of your lives would have been different.

576
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: About what you imagine?

577
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: Well, what I imagine is I had a half scholarship

578
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: to many private schools on the East Coast, and I

579
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: didn't use them because it would have been a financial

580
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: burden to take out loans for the other half. I

581
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: got my BA early and went on later to work

582
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: in media and to be a teacher. But if I

583
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: had known this at seventeen, or even at twenty three,

584
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: when my father who raised us past, I think I

585
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 3: probably would have made different choices. I probably would have

586
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: taken out the loans and gone to one of the

587
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: private schools.

588
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: How would knowing these things have made you want to

589
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: do something different?

590
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: Because I think I would have had more self esteem,

591
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 3: I would have felt more confidence biologically, and I always

592
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: felt different. Like I said, not only you know people

593
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 3: telling us, We look different, we act different, and just

594
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: nothing made one hundred percent sense to me. Now things

595
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: are making sense, even though it's really sad to find

596
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 3: it out at this age.

597
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: Can I ask how your father died when it sounds

598
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: like he was rather young.

599
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he died of a heart attack in his early fifties.

600
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 3: And again their medical issues have come up before and

601
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: she always said nothing on either side. And you know,

602
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 3: doctor recently gave me a hard stressed test a little

603
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: worried because my father died so young of a heart attack.

604
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 3: So just another example.

605
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: And Kim for you whether it also thoughts about whether

606
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: your life would have been different had you known this earlier.

607
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 4: I do agree with Sandra that I would have had

608
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 4: higher self esteem. My mother definitely did not praise us,

609
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 4: and she criticized us a lot and did not encourage

610
00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: us to pursue career. And just knowing that my biological

611
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 4: father was a doctor would have definitely given me more confidence.

612
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: These feelings that you have toward your mother about not

613
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: telling you earlier, do you also have them toward your

614
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: father for not telling you.

615
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 4: I don't have any bad feelings towards my father at

616
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 4: all about it.

617
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: How come.

618
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 3: I would have been.

619
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 4: Quite young to handle this type of information. I was

620
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 4: only twenty one when he passed, so I feel like

621
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 4: he's off the hook.

622
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 1: So you're saying you would have liked to have had

623
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: this secret throughout your whole childhood, because my understanding earlier

624
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: was that you wanted to know when you were younger.

625
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: But now you're saying you don't feel like you could

626
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: have handled the information at twenty one.

627
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 4: I'm saying as a child, I wouldn't have been able

628
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 4: to handle it.

629
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: What about you, Sandra, would you have liked to have

630
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: known when you were growing up?

631
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, I would have liked to have known, probably

632
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 3: by junior high or high school, and certainly by the

633
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 3: time I was going into college a month after I

634
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: turned seventeen, or last chance, how about a little bit

635
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: after he passed at twenty three. Absolutely, I absolutely would

636
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: have wanted to have known.

637
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering for you, do you feel any of

638
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: that anger towards your father because both of them made

639
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: this decision together.

640
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 3: A little bit, It's like I even give them a

641
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: pass for the sixties and the early seventies because of

642
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 3: the reading I've done and the time I knew that

643
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 3: that was what was done, even though it certainly wasn't

644
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: morally or ethically right. But I don't give him a

645
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 3: full pass. He gets much more of a pass because

646
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 3: he died thirty eight years ago, but I do hold

647
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 3: him partially responsible.

648
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: So you've had many decades each of you to develop

649
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 2: your identity, your sense of self, your narrative about who

650
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: you are in the world. How has this changed that.

651
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: Is that something you're talking about together or is that

652
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: something you're trying to process separately.

653
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 3: I would say I'm processing it separately. I have been

654
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 3: talking with a therapist about it because it's been just

655
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 3: having the rug pulled out from underneath my childhood. I'm

656
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: replaying a lot of scenarios now and they're all sounding

657
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 3: different than having more memories of things that were said

658
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 3: or not said. So I have a lot of grief processing,

659
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: you know, what was lost, what was untrue, what I

660
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 3: might have done differently. So I've been reading and talking

661
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: with a therapist besides Kim to try to process it.

662
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: But the other grief that I have is the grief

663
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 3: about my mom. I'm so sorry that she put me

664
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 3: in this position, that this is going to forever change

665
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 3: the memories and the relationship I have with her while

666
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 3: she's still alive, and it's going to change how I

667
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: look back on her. And that makes me very sad

668
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 3: to know that the one person that I thought that

669
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: I could trust betrayed me with the biggest betrayal that

670
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: I think that she probably could have forgone. It's not

671
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 3: that she's not good to me in other ways, And

672
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: I know, Laurie, you always say two things can be

673
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: true at the same time.

674
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: When we talk about two things can be true at

675
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: the same time, what I think about is that she

676
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: tried to protect you and it came off as harming you,

677
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: and she did not and does not see that. So

678
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: it's one thing for her to think I'm protecting them

679
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: this whole time, But it's another thing when the daughters say, actually,

680
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: that didn't protect us. And I think that's where your

681
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: anger is mostly focused. They think there's a double betrayal.

682
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: There's the first betrayal of we weren't told, and then

683
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 1: the second betrayal is and when we bring this to light,

684
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 1: we're told your feelings about this or not valid.

685
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 3: I would say so, And even if that's what she

686
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: and other parents were told in the sixties and seventies,

687
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 3: and that they were protecting us we're grown adults. I

688
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 3: think somewhere in there the switch to protect her reputation,

689
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: to protect this pact which is with my dad, which

690
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, was null and void within

691
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 3: several months after he died thirty eight years ago. In

692
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 3: my mind, she owed that loyalty to us to let

693
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 3: us know our identity, So I think it turned from

694
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 3: protecting us to protecting her.

695
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: Sandra, I think you're right. And after he passed was

696
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: also a different era and people were thinking about these

697
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: things differently, And the fact that she wouldn't tell you

698
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: then is to protect her, but also to protect him,

699
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: And that's also another film of betrayal, that their needs

700
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: superseded yours.

701
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 3: I don't know why she said some of the things

702
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 3: she said. Was it kind of funny to her telling

703
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 3: us about doctor cousins who donated while they were in

704
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: med school and now saying, oh, I never said that,

705
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: Or making up stories about her pregnancies and which were

706
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: obviously total wies.

707
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: My guess, Sandra, is that she wasn't able to really

708
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: get in touch with her own feelings about the fact

709
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: that she was keeping this secret that she felt because

710
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: at the time, doctors would say, don't tell. That was

711
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: the instruction that they gave to parents. Don't tell. Pretend

712
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: this didn't happen. So she probably, outside of her awareness,

713
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: had some mixed feelings about all of this. It was

714
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: hard to hold all of that secret on her own,

715
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: very hard to hold such a big secret with just

716
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: your husband, and they probably never talked about it because

717
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: there was so much shame around it. And I imagine

718
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: these things leaked out not because she was consciously trying

719
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: to do anything, but because this is something she was

720
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: thinking about, and they came out in inappropriate ways. She

721
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: was able to buy herself contain this huge secret that

722
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: she lived with. By the way every day when she

723
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: wasn't in denial, so she'd be in denial for most

724
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,439
Speaker 1: of the time, and then she'd have a little leak

725
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: in the denial mechanism and something would come out, and

726
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: then she'd go back in, like a turtle putting its

727
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: head out and then going back in its shell.

728
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 2: Secrets often leak in that way. But I think you've

729
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: yet to get to the point where you're really focusing

730
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: on your identity, on what it does or doesn't change

731
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: for you on how you're feeling about yourself in any

732
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: ways that are different or not. And I think that

733
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: they're stages to dealing with shocking news, and they unfold

734
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: one at a time, often with some overlap. But I

735
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: think that this is still very early for you, and

736
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 2: so you're very much pre occupied with the secret, with

737
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 2: the lies, with the relationship, and I'm suggesting that to

738
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: come is going to be some work you're going to

739
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: have to do about that sense of identity and what

740
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 2: it changed. Have you talked about whether it changes anything

741
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: in your relationship with sisters?

742
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 3: Yes, I could say that that is a benefit because

743
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: we've always gone along, but we've always been very different

744
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 3: from each other, and now we kind of know why.

745
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: But it's made us closer because who else could have

746
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 3: such a crazy secret held for so many years from

747
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 3: them by their mother, So in that way it's made

748
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 3: us closer. And I too, have talked with some of

749
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 3: the half siblings, an a nephew, and they've been great

750
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 3: and we plan to meet up.

751
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: But sometimes, is there any relief in finally having an

752
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: answer to these questions that have been percolating in you

753
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,479
Speaker 1: for so long about why you felt different or why

754
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: you felt that something wasn't right.

755
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 3: I guess there is some relief. That's a good point.

756
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 3: I guess there is, But concurrently there is also so

757
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 3: a lot of grief and anger. But yeah, relief and

758
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 3: grief at once.

759
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like both of your biological fathers passed away

760
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: before you got this information. Is that right?

761
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 3: I don't know about mine. Santra doesn't know her father.

762
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 3: I don't know if he's alive. He'd be probably ninety ish,

763
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 3: so he hasn't been found. I've been looking. I've written many,

764
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 3: many emails to people on twenty three ae meters, and

765
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 3: I haven't been able to find a link to the donors.

766
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 3: I guess they call it social family. The only people

767
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 3: I've spoken with are half siblings, so I haven't had

768
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 3: success in that way, and I don't know if I'll

769
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 3: ever find the link. I'd love to find the link,

770
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 3: whether he's alive or not. My sister has a very

771
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 3: different story on that end.

772
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: Was that like for you, Sandra, to watch Kim be

773
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: able to read letters from her biological father and have

774
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: a lot more information than you do.

775
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 3: I'm happy for her. I wish I would have the

776
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: same experience I have to accept I may never so

777
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: it's sad for me. I very well may never have

778
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 3: that experience, and I wish I did, but I may

779
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 3: never have it.

780
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: A lot of different emotions, but certainly the grief and

781
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: the loss is one of them.

782
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 3: That's true. I know you asked my sister if she

783
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: looked like her dad. I found that I physically resemble

784
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: a couple of my half siblings a lot, and seeing

785
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: that for the first time, they sent me pictures and

786
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: it was really startling. I knew I looked nothing like

787
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 3: my father's family, and I thought I look like my

788
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 3: mom's family. I look a little bit like them, way

789
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 3: more like my father's family, And it was just startling

790
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: to see you've seen.

791
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: When you saying it's just startling, there was a real

792
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: sadness there in your eyes.

793
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

794
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,720
Speaker 5: It just brings back the whole lie, my whole life,

795
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 5: not being able to know the truth when I always

796
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 5: felt something was amiss and I didn't know what, and

797
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 5: seeing that really brought it to light.

798
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 3: Seeing their pictures, like.

799
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: Wow, right, when you see a resemblance to a sibling

800
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 2: you didn't know you had, brings back so many moments

801
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 2: of that doubt, and so many historical moments of feeling

802
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: something very strongly and not having the validation for it correct.

803
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: You mentioned him the question of so what do we

804
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: do visa vir Dad's family and our cousins. Do we

805
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 2: tell them or do we not tell them? Let's start

806
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: with what you want to do, and then we'll get

807
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 2: to what the concerns might be. But what would you

808
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: like to do each of you?

809
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 4: I would like to tell them because I'm close with

810
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 4: them and I don't want to keep this from them.

811
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 4: I feel like by omitting it, I'm lying in a way.

812
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 4: If I would see them and speak to them and

813
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 4: they say what's new, and I say nothing much, what's

814
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 4: new with you?

815
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 3: I feel like it's a lie that would be And Soandra,

816
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: I would like to tell them also, But you know

817
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 3: my mother sat there at that day saying, don't tell them,

818
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 3: don't tell them. That's why I didn't tell you.

819
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: What does she think will happen if they find out?

820
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: I have no idea, But you haven't asked, right. There's

821
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: a really interesting message that goes on here, which is

822
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: we want to keep everything in the open. We're people

823
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: who bring things up. We don't like it when things

824
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: are hidden, and yet we don't actually have these conversations.

825
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: We don't ask our mother, well, why what do you

826
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: think would happen if we told the cousins. We don't

827
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: say all the things that we're thinking or ask all

828
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: the questions that we're wondering about. How do you think

829
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: about that? On the one hand, you feel like you're

830
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: people who are very open, and on the other hand,

831
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: your people who are very afraid things up.

832
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: That's a really good question for Kim. I always had

833
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: a fear of my mother growing up.

834
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 4: She you know, instilled in me, you know, to do

835
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 4: certain things, don't do certain things, and like, I never

836
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 4: wanted to anger her, even now at my age, and

837
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 4: she tells me, don't tell your cousins, I'm like, okay,

838
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 4: as opposed to.

839
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: Why, except Kim, of the two of you, you're the

840
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: one who said I'd like to tell them, and Sandra

841
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: was the one who said, I'm really torn, right.

842
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: What would she do? Like, how would she react when

843
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: you were a kid? What was the thing that was

844
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: so scary about her that you were afraid of her?

845
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 4: Oh, she would just disapprove of me. She'd scream at me,

846
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 4: she'd hit me, I just was petrified.

847
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: What's an example of that where she would hit you

848
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: or she would scream at you. Can you recall an

849
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: incident I don't know, just when we.

850
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 4: Were little, And I don't think Sandra and I were

851
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 4: bad kids in any way, but we'd be very afraid

852
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 4: and she comes, you know, towards us, and we'd be like,

853
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 4: oh no, no, no, and we tried to lock ourselves

854
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 4: in our bedroom sash, she couldn't open the door.

855
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: And you were really scared of her. Then, can you

856
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: remember an example of something you did that triggered that

857
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 2: anger from her, that the specific incident that you can

858
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: tell us about.

859
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 3: No, not really.

860
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 4: She just seemed angry all the time, which is odd

861
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 4: because she'll say that when we were little girls, it

862
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 4: was the happiest time in her life. But I only

863
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 4: remember her being angry at us.

864
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: What about your dad? Were you afraid of him?

865
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 3: No?

866
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 4: And I know Santra and I have different different experiences

867
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 4: with this. We have discussed this. I just remember having

868
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,399
Speaker 4: a great relationship with my father. I don't remember him

869
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 4: ever yelling at me or hitting me or disapproving of me.

870
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 4: It was just from my mom. And Sandra remembers both.

871
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 3: What do you remember, Sandra, I remember my dad differently.

872
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,280
Speaker 3: By and large, the relationship was okay, we got along

873
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 3: well in certain ways. But I do remember that I

874
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 3: got hit as a kid by him, you know. And

875
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 3: again I'm not excusing it, but I do know that

876
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 3: it was more common at that time.

877
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: Are you talking about he would spank you with the.

878
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 3: Strap for being quote bad? And again I have a

879
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 3: little bit different experience. And I remember him once when

880
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 3: I was a teen, telling me I was like an

881
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 3: albatross around his neck.

882
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: Do you know what prompted that comment?

883
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 3: I don't remember. And again, compared to most teens, it's

884
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: a pretty good kid. You know. I was a really

885
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 3: good kid, So I would say that, I guess even

886
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 3: during childhood and certainly later on in adulthood, my sister

887
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 3: was definitely the quote favorite, and even though she might

888
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 3: still be afraid of our mom, I would say she

889
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,439
Speaker 3: was the favorite. I still would hear like about once

890
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 3: a once twice a year. Now event she made betterfe choices,

891
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 3: and you know, I got divorced. It wasn't a good marriage.

892
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 3: But my sister, you know, was always smarter in the

893
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 3: way that she made better choices. And now I feel like, wow, Mom,

894
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 3: she turns out to have made the worst choice of

895
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 3: all here by not telling us about our identity, isn't

896
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 3: lying and betraying us.

897
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: In every family, there are stories this child is like this,

898
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: this child is like this. People get labeled, they get

899
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,879
Speaker 1: stories around them, and then these narratives as children kind

900
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: of seep in and we internalize them, and when they

901
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: continue into adulthood, it's very hard to change the narrative.

902
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: For example, a different narrative around divorces. I made a

903
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: really good choice by ending that marriage. I made a

904
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: really good choice in the new partner that I have.

905
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: I made a really good choice in the way that

906
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: I parent. So there's lots of stories you can tell

907
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: around that one issue. But the story that you're still

908
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: fighting with her about is that you make bad choices

909
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 1: and that Kim makes better choices. And I think that

910
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: when we talk about what this new story that has

911
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: come into your lives, the story of the person that

912
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: we grew up with is not our biological father and

913
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: we have different fathers, there's an opportunity, I think, as

914
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: you're getting clear on what the accurate story is to

915
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: make the other stories in your life more accurate too,

916
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: so that you're not walking around with these stories that

917
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: are so old and so inaccurate. What was the message Kim,

918
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 1: that you would get growing up about yourself? Either good one?

919
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: What was your message?

920
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 3: I was definitely seen as the easier one.

921
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 4: I didn't give them much trouble purposely, and I knew

922
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 4: that there was definitely conflict with them in Sandra and

923
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 4: I'm the younger ones, so I just tried to follow

924
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 4: all the rules not making trouble.

925
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: We were talking earlier about not keeping the secret yourselves,

926
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: of sharing this information with your family that might make

927
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: trouble for your mom. Do you still feel like you

928
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: need to have that role and not making trouble?

929
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 3: Yes?

930
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 4: Exactly why I am torn about saying anything. I don't

931
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 4: want to anger her.

932
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: So because you keep preferencing her age is almost eighty eight,

933
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: we don't to upset her, et cetera. There's a difference

934
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 2: between upsetting an eighty eight year old and angering an

935
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,919
Speaker 2: eighty eight year old. Upsetting her is like, oh will

936
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 2: she be okay? Angering her? Is will I be okay?

937
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: And I want to ask which is it? Is it

938
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 2: angering or is it upsetting? It's probably both For you, Soandra.

939
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 3: It's probably both.

940
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 2: So Sandra and Kim, we have some advice for you.

941
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 2: We're thinking about the fact that both of you felt

942
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 2: so upset about the fact that this secret was kept

943
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: from you for so many years, when it could have

944
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 2: been really significant to learn earlier. And we know you're

945
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: really struggling with this idea of keeping the sea now

946
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: from your cousins who you have a relationship with when

947
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: they're asking you how are you doing? And the biggest

948
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: thing that's happened in many years is something you feel

949
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 2: you can't talk about. Then that's spilling into a separate

950
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 2: relationship you have, and we know that makes you uncomfortable.

951
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 2: So we do think you should tell your cousins, and

952
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: we also think you should tell your mom that you're

953
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: going to tell your cousins. However, yes, however, I know

954
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: both of you had that face like, eh, however, fair enough,

955
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: But this is what we want you to tell your mom.

956
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 2: We want you to change your mom's story about what happened,

957
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 2: because her story is from sixty something years ago. Her

958
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 2: story is about the mores of the time that they

959
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,760
Speaker 2: did something shameful and they were told by the doctors

960
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: not to tell anyone. What would like you to tell

961
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 2: your mom is mom, Look, we're going to talk to

962
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,240
Speaker 2: our cousins and tell them the truth about what happened,

963
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 2: because here's how we see that truth. We see that

964
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 2: you and dad so wanted a family that you were

965
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 2: willing to do something really brave and something that was

966
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 2: at the time considered shameful at the time, considered something

967
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 2: one shouldn't even talk about, but was really brave both

968
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 2: you and Dad, and you went ahead with this decision.

969
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: And then once you did, you were told not to

970
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 2: tell us, and you held onto that because you were

971
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 2: told at the time it would be better for us

972
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 2: not to know. And even though we would have loved

973
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: to have known, that's what you were told and you

974
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: kept to it, and Dad took it to his grave,

975
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: and you would have as well, other than the fact

976
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 2: that we found out, But we understand the bravery that took,

977
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 2: and we know how much you did that to protect

978
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 2: us because you loved us and you wanted this family

979
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 2: from before we were born. And that's the story. We

980
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: want to tell our cousins, how brave our mom and

981
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 2: dad were for wanting us so much that they did

982
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 2: something so so difficult that's the first task. You tell her,

983
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 2: and then you tell your cousins. Now, she might have

984
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 2: a strong reaction and she say no, I don't want that,

985
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 2: and then you'll reiterate. You'll say, Mum, you don't want

986
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: it because you think it's shameful. We don't. We're here

987
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 2: because of that choice, We exist because of that choice.

988
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 2: We want to celebrate that choice, as difficult as it

989
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 2: is for us.

990
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 3: For you.

991
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: We want to be proud of you for doing it,

992
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 2: and we want you to feel proud of yourself for

993
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 2: having the strength to do it. You'll try and get

994
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: her to change her story, and you should tell your

995
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 2: cousins regardless. You're letting her know you're doing it. It's

996
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: not a question to her. You're letting her know. But

997
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 2: if she can change her story just a little bit,

998
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 2: it might open her up to having more discussions with

999
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 2: you about it, if she knows that there's a different

1000
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: way to think about this.

1001
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,959
Speaker 1: And there's this question that you both had about whose

1002
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: story is this? And it's everybody's story. But there's this

1003
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: famous quote from Carl Jung that secrets are like psychic poison.

1004
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: And I think that if you collude with the secret

1005
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 1: you're colluding with the shame, and so given how much

1006
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: you wanted to know this information and now that the

1007
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: truth is out there, we don't want you to be

1008
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: the people colluding with the secret. We want you to

1009
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: feel free to share the truth of who you are.

1010
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: So that's the first task. The second task, we talked

1011
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: a lot about grief and loss and a lot of

1012
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: fantasies about what it would have been like had you

1013
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: known earlier, the loss of the time, the grief around

1014
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: not having been told in time to potentially meet your

1015
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: biological fathers, and we would like you to go a

1016
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: little bit into that grief because we feel like this

1017
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: is very new to both of you and there's a

1018
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 1: lot of anger, but the tender, sad part still hasn't

1019
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: really been processing as much. And so we would like

1020
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: you each to write a letter to your donor and

1021
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: say all of the things that you would like to

1022
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: have said had you been able to meet them. And

1023
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: this is going to bring you straight to the heart

1024
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: of your grief and loss in a way that is

1025
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: going to really help you get in touch with that,

1026
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: because I don't think you'll be able to move through

1027
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 1: this experience if you aren't getting in touch at that

1028
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 1: really really tender, deep level with the grief and the loss.

1029
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: And you were saying earlier, I think, Sandra, you said,

1030
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: we really should have had the opportunity to get to

1031
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: know where we came from. So what would you have

1032
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 1: said if you could have gotten to know those men?

1033
00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: So we'd like you to write those letters, and then

1034
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: we would like you to read those letters to each

1035
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,919
Speaker 1: other so you can be there to support each other,

1036
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: and so you can have someone there to witness your

1037
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: grief and your loss. And they might be different, so

1038
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 1: you went through a similar experience, but we want there

1039
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: to be space for you each to process this in

1040
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: a way that happens organically for each of you.

1041
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 2: So there's the grief of this, but there are also

1042
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 2: some positive things that happened from it and some potentially

1043
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: empowering things that happened from learning what your true story is.

1044
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: And you mentioned it brought you in touch with half

1045
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 2: siblings you didn't know. It allowed you to right now

1046
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: confront some aspects of your childhood. Would like you each

1047
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: to make a list of the ways in which this

1048
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 2: experience has been empowering for you individually, and that might

1049
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: be different for each of you, But what are the

1050
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 2: ways in which this has enriched your lives and potentially

1051
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 2: could going forward when you think of the future. Make

1052
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 2: a list of those different things and describe them, and

1053
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 2: then we'd like you to share that with one another,

1054
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 2: because fundamentally, as sisters, you're going through this together and

1055
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 2: this is bringing you close, and that should be one

1056
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 2: of the items on that list. As you mentioned, here

1057
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: are the ways in which it's been empowering. Here's how

1058
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 2: I might grow from this.

1059
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: And one of the things that happens when we reflect

1060
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: on that is we start to make sense of things

1061
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: that didn't make sense in the past. So when your father,

1062
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: Sandra said you were in Albatrass, I imagine that that

1063
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: was the burden of the secret that was leaking out.

1064
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: That you were not the burden, that the secret was

1065
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: his burden. People displace their unprocessed thoughts, feelings, emotions, and

1066
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: all the things that your mom did. Things are incomprehensible

1067
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: to both of you, the things that she mentioned about

1068
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: adoption and donors, the leaks, all of the leaks on

1069
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: your list. I hope that you'll both think about how

1070
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: having these truths helps you make sense of the past.

1071
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: In a way that isn't so painful. So some of

1072
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 1: the things that were said and done are now in

1073
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: the context of, oh, they had feelings about this big

1074
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 1: secret that they were holding too. Two people knew about

1075
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: the secret and two people didn't. But everybody was feeling

1076
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,919
Speaker 1: the burden of the secret. And that does not mean

1077
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: that the two of you were burdens. The two of

1078
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: you were why they went to such great lengths to

1079
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: do this. But when you have a secret, it's going

1080
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: to leak out in all kinds of ways that are unhealthy.

1081
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 3: It was all very good advice.

1082
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that the sisters reached out to us,

1083
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: and also that they have each other, because the revelation

1084
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: of a secret has so many ripple effects, and it

1085
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: can feel so isolating and so confusing and so lonely.

1086
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: And while they're each going to be on their own

1087
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: journey with this, they also have this common moment of discovery.

1088
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: And they grew up with the same parents and they're

1089
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: dealing with the same kind of family issues around secrecy

1090
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: and shame and all of the leakage that came out

1091
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: over the years that didn't make sense to them that

1092
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 1: now is starting to make sense.

1093
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 2: I agree, And what I'm glad for is that despite

1094
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: the fact that they've had different experiences growing up and

1095
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 2: very different experiences now as well, Sondra having much less

1096
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: information comparatively, and yet it's been able to bring them

1097
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 2: together and to strengthen their bond.

1098
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: And I like how we talked about the both and

1099
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: of a situation that there's some relief and freedom that

1100
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: comes with I wasn't crazy, I knew something wasn't right,

1101
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: and then also all of the reactions that come with

1102
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: and what do we do now? Some people are still

1103
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with it. So I'll be really interested to see

1104
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: how these assignments go this week for both of them.

1105
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're listening to DEA Therapists. We'll be back after

1106
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 2: a short break. So, Laurie, we heard from Sandra and Kim,

1107
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 2: and I am so curious to hear how these assignments

1108
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 2: went for them.

1109
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 3: Hi, this is Sandra. We completed our first assignment by

1110
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 3: going to our mother's house. We started out by letting

1111
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: her know that we commend her and my father for

1112
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 3: their bravery and let her know we understand that they

1113
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 3: chose to use a donor because they so desperately wanted children.

1114
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 3: It did open up more discussion. We told her we

1115
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 3: were going to be letting our cousins know because we

1116
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 3: wouldn't be kolude in the secret. On one hand, I

1117
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 3: thought it went better than I had anticipated, as I

1118
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 3: had been afraid that she would yell at me and

1119
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 3: throw me out of her house when we told her this,

1120
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 3: and she didn't, so I was happy about that. However,

1121
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 3: when we continued to ask her why they kept this

1122
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 3: a secret and why she continued to carry this secret

1123
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 3: for decades after our father died, she just kept stating,

1124
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 3: because that's what we decided to do when you were born.

1125
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 3: When we asked her that now, seeing how much pain

1126
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 3: this has caused us, if she would do it that

1127
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 3: way all over again, if she had the chance to

1128
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 3: change things regarding holding the secret, she said that she

1129
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 3: would do it exactly the same way again. For the

1130
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 3: second assignment, writing the letter to my sperm donor father,

1131
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 3: I found it to be cathartic and I was able

1132
01:02:54,280 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 3: to express a range of emotions, including excitement, grief, and anger.

1133
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 3: I was curious about him and what he looks like

1134
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 3: and his personality. His interests is family, is medical history?

1135
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 3: I wanted to know if there are any similarities between us,

1136
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 3: and also if he has ever given thought to how

1137
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 3: many donor children he may have, and if he was

1138
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 3: at all curious about us, About me, I told him

1139
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 3: about myself, about my life, about my children, and let

1140
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 3: him know that it would have meant a lot to

1141
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 3: me if I had known that he existed, even if

1142
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 3: I didn't get to know him, just if I knew

1143
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 3: that he was out there, it would have been beneficial

1144
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 3: to me. I found it empowering to write my list

1145
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 3: of positives regarding this discovery, including the fact that sharing

1146
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 3: this experience has made my sister and me closer, and

1147
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 3: I've gotten to speak with some pretty cool new closely

1148
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 3: related family members that I had known about before. Additionally,

1149
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 3: I think it gives me a sense of relief, as

1150
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 3: it explains why I always felt different, so things finally

1151
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 3: make more sense. I finally know my story.

1152
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie and guy, this is Kim. I completed my

1153
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 4: assignments and I wanted to give you the update. Sandra

1154
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 4: and I went over to our mom's house to give

1155
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 4: her the new positive narrative of our story. It did

1156
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 4: not go as well as I had hoped Mom was

1157
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 4: kind of closed off, defensive. I told her how brave

1158
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 4: I thought she and Dad were and how much I

1159
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 4: appreciated the lengths they went through to have a family,

1160
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 4: and that I want to celebrate that story. I told

1161
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 4: her that I am very proud of her for what

1162
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 4: she did, and that I want her to be proud

1163
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 4: of herself too and feel no shame. She then said,

1164
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 4: I am proud of myself. I feel no shame. So

1165
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 4: I then asked them why did it have to be

1166
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 4: a secret then, and she said, because that's what we do.

1167
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 3: Decided.

1168
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 4: I thought you'd be teased, so I guess she was

1169
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 4: trying to protect us when we were children, but we

1170
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 4: are sixty years old. I then told her that we

1171
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 4: want to feel free to share the truth of who

1172
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 4: we are, so we are telling our cousins the story,

1173
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 4: and she angrily said, go ahead and tell your cousins.

1174
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 4: I don't care. I don't even talk to them. I

1175
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 4: then got up to leave. I gave her a hug

1176
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 4: and told her that I loved her. She then said

1177
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 4: sorry in a harsh tone. I said sorry for what,

1178
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 4: and she had no response. I said sorry that we

1179
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 4: are in pain, and she said yes, writing The letter

1180
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 4: to my biological father to express my grief and loss

1181
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 4: was both cathartic and healing. I also expressed my gratitude

1182
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 4: to him for giving his donation so that I can exist.

1183
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 4: My life is definitely been enriched by this new discovery.

1184
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 4: There are a lot of positives. Sandra and I are

1185
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 4: close to now than we have ever been. We have

1186
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 4: definitely bonded over this experience. We had a very meaningful

1187
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 4: and emotional conversation with our cousins, and they were extremely

1188
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 4: comforting and supportive of us and our story. I am

1189
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 4: really looking forward to getting to know and forming relationships

1190
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 4: with my many half siblings. Lastly, Sandra and I finally

1191
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 4: feel validated and our lives finally make sense. We always

1192
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 4: knew that something was off growing up, but we didn't

1193
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 4: know what it was. We looked nothing alike, our personalities

1194
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 4: were completely different. Everyone always asked us if we were

1195
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 4: actually full sisters, and now we finally know why. Thank you,

1196
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 4: Laurie and Guy for all of your help and advice.

1197
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 4: We greatly appreciate it.

1198
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: I'm glad that they each got back to us separately

1199
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of overlap in their reports,

1200
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: but there was also a difference, and the first difference

1201
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 1: was how the mom reacted to the conversation. Sandra said

1202
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 1: that the mom reacted better than she expected. She expected

1203
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 1: the mom would yell at them and throw them out

1204
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: of the house, and Kim said that the conversation didn't

1205
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: go as well as she had hoped, so that was

1206
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: interesting just in terms of their expectations. Both of them

1207
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: described how when the mom was asked if she would

1208
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 1: do anything differently knowing how much pain holding the secret

1209
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: had caused the daughters, that she said she wouldn't and

1210
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 1: I think that they interpreted that as her not seeing

1211
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: their pain. But that moment when the mom said sorry,

1212
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: even though it was angry, and then Kim said sorry

1213
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: that we're in a lot of pain, and the mom

1214
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: said yes, you know that there's so much going on

1215
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: inside of the mom, and I think it's hard for

1216
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: them to see because of their own pain. But I

1217
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 1: felt so much compassion for the whole family when I

1218
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 1: heard that moment and what it took for the mom,

1219
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 1: given how rigid she had been on her position, to

1220
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: say sorry and then to acknowledge, yes, I'm sorry that

1221
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 1: I put you through this pain.

1222
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 2: I agree. I also had compassion for the mother in

1223
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 2: hearing these voice messages, because when Kim asked her, why

1224
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 2: didn't you tell us when we were adults, the mother

1225
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 2: wasn't able to say, because I had kept a secret

1226
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 2: for so long. It probably would have felt incredibly scary

1227
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 2: to come and admit that I had lied to you

1228
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 2: all your lives and cause you pain. Then. I think

1229
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 2: people at that time came up with all kinds of

1230
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 2: rationalizations for why they had to keep the secret, And

1231
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,959
Speaker 2: I think that what Kim and Sandra need to understand

1232
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 2: is that the mom's positions on this are really stuck

1233
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 2: in time. It's possible that if the dad hadn't died

1234
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 2: and they could have processed it to together, there might

1235
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,719
Speaker 2: have been some change. But I think after the father

1236
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 2: passed away then it was not just about maintaining the secret,

1237
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 2: but maintaining his secret or his shame in some kind

1238
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 2: of way, and that made it very difficult for the

1239
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 2: mother to reconsider how she was handling.

1240
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: Things right, because she had to really grapple with this

1241
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,879
Speaker 1: on her own, and she was not talking to anybody

1242
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: about this because she was the sole keeper of that

1243
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 1: secret at that point. And I think it must have

1244
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 1: felt very difficult for her in ways she doesn't realize

1245
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 1: or can't articulate, except there was an opening there when

1246
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: she said sorry and could acknowledge their pain. I know

1247
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:39,559
Speaker 1: that's not enough for them right now, but I hope

1248
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 1: that they take that as an opening. I think there's

1249
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: going to be more of that, as the mother sees

1250
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: them be very open and comfortable and relieved by being

1251
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 1: able to live their lives with their identity being known.

1252
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 2: The other part I really liked was the letters they

1253
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 2: wrote to the donuts, because we asked them to write

1254
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:00,880
Speaker 2: a letter, but they didn't just state things. They said,

1255
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 2: here are the questions I would have asked you, here

1256
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 2: are the things I would have wanted to know. They

1257
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 2: were really comprehensive communicating all the feelings they had, all

1258
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 2: the questions they had, all the thoughts they had. They

1259
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 2: were really enumerting the losses and the misses that they

1260
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 2: didn't get to experience, and I think that's what made

1261
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 2: it so cathartic.

1262
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 1: One of the many losses that happened when you keep

1263
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 1: that kind of secret for so long is the loss

1264
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: of the ability to have connected with their donors, and

1265
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: that is a huge loss, and so I think that

1266
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 1: in these letters they were able to begin the process

1267
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 1: of doing some of that grief work. They were so

1268
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: beautiful what they described, and I hope that they'll continue

1269
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: to do some of that grief work because there's more

1270
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 1: to do there. But I think this was a really,

1271
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 1: really positive and healing beginning to that.

1272
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 2: And I was very hardened to hear that. When it

1273
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 2: came to looking at what the empowering aspects of this

1274
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 2: were for them, they were so meaningful. First among those

1275
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,880
Speaker 2: what it brought them closer as sisters, but it also

1276
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,960
Speaker 2: connected them to their cousins in a new kind of

1277
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 2: way that they're excited about. It presented them with all

1278
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 2: these half siblings that they now have relationships with and

1279
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 2: have an option to form relationships with.

1280
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 1: And I think the biggest piece of this is what

1281
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: they both said in different ways. Sandra said, I finally

1282
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: know my story and Kim said, our lives finally make sense.

1283
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 1: And that's the story that we hear over and over

1284
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 1: when there's been a big family secret, and then when

1285
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:40,639
Speaker 1: you finally get the validation, oh, it makes sense now.

1286
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 1: People always wondered if we were sisters or I didn't

1287
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: really feel a part of the family in the way

1288
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 1: that I thought I would. Whatever it is, just something

1289
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 1: seemed not right. I finally know my story. Our lives

1290
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 1: finally make sense when we think about the positives of

1291
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 1: this experience despite all the pain, that's the positive right there.

1292
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that now the mystery has been

1293
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: solved and they can move forward knowing the truth and

1294
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 1: to feel empowered by that truth.

1295
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 2: And the last thing I think is that by telling

1296
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 2: the mom that they're telling the cousins, and then telling

1297
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 2: the cousins and then having these conversations, that is no

1298
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 2: more secret, and that is an incredible relief.

1299
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:29,799
Speaker 1: Next week, a young woman who's now with a healthy

1300
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: partner still carries scars from an abusive relationship she had

1301
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:34,480
Speaker 1: years ago.

1302
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 3: Like I'm just ashamed of the whole situation.

1303
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 6: I don't want to talk about how I had an

1304
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 6: abusive partner for three years of my life. I want

1305
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 6: to forget about it on the outside, but on the inside,

1306
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 6: I can't forget about it.

1307
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1308
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

1309
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

1310
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:00,280
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1311
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1312
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1313
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1314
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1315
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:18,719
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John

1316
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:23,799
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

1317
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast

1318
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you

1319
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio