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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greace Bombshell in the last hours

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Speaker 1: in the case against Brian Coburger, charged in the murder

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Speaker 1: of four beautiful Idaho University students, we learn that one

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Speaker 1: of the crime victims who survived, roommate Bethany Funk, is

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Speaker 1: fighting tooth and nail a subpoena delivered by the defense

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Speaker 1: Brian Coberger's lawyer, trying to force Funk from her home

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Speaker 1: in Reno all the way back to Moscow, Idaho to

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Speaker 1: testify for Brian Coburger.

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grece. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation

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Speaker 1: in Serious X one eleven. First of all, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our cut. Three seventy eight are friends at ABC.

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Speaker 3: But one of two survivors of the Idaho college murderers

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Speaker 3: fighting back after suspect Brian Coberger's legal team subpoenaed her

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Speaker 3: to testify. The survivor's attorney calling the subpoena improper, saying

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Speaker 3: Coberger's legal team has no authority to summon her for

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Speaker 3: the preliminary hearing. Coburger is charged with murdering four of

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Speaker 3: her friends in the early morning hours of November thirteenth,

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Speaker 3: the victims found on the second and third floor of

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Speaker 3: the home while she was on the first, and now

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Speaker 3: in court documents, Coburger's team claiming the survivor may be

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Speaker 3: a material witness for his case and could possibly provide

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Speaker 3: exculpatory information.

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Speaker 1: I've never heard a bigger croc a bs in my life.

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Speaker 1: That's a technical legal term. Joining me an all star panel.

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Speaker 1: But first let's go to Dale Carson, high profile lawyer

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Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent Dale Carson. This is

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Speaker 1: totals because this is a preliminary hearing that's going to

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Speaker 1: be held Gen. Twenty six. It is not a jury trial. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: this is just a state putting up a bare bones case.

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Speaker 1: The defense doesn't even have to reply. It's a fishing

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Speaker 1: expedition to force Bethany out of home, away from home,

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Speaker 1: and back to Idaho. It's actually legal terrorism on the

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Speaker 1: crime victim.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly right, Nancy. A preliminary hearing is used

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Speaker 4: typically by the defense to learn what cards the state

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Speaker 4: is holding, and it's a mechanism for doing that. And

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Speaker 4: oddly enough, in Idaho, there is a grand jury that

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Speaker 4: can simply indict him, and yet they have allowed this

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Speaker 4: preliminary hearing to proceed, and to try to bring somebody

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Speaker 4: from one state to another, well, it's against the US Constitution,

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Speaker 4: but there is a uniform act that allows this transfer.

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Speaker 4: But when that transfer recurs, in other words, to bring

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Speaker 4: somebody from another state to this state in a criminal matter,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't cover preliminary hearings. And more importantly, if you're

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Speaker 4: going to do that, you have to explain to the court,

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Speaker 4: the state court where she lives, why you got to

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Speaker 4: have that witness come to a court in Idaho. And

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Speaker 4: that requires explicit information, not just I believe it will

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Speaker 4: be something that will provide evidence for my client.

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Speaker 1: Guys, we are talking about the letty's legal bombshell in

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Speaker 1: the case of the four students murdered in Idaho.

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Speaker 2: At this hour, the.

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Speaker 1: State is still amassing evidence against prime suspect, independant Brian Coberger.

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Speaker 1: He is yet to interplee again with me an all

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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now,

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Speaker 1: straight out to Caitlin Becker, senior investigative reporter for Dailymail

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Speaker 1: dot Com.

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Speaker 2: Caitlyn, explain what's happening right now?

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Speaker 1: Why is the defense terrorizing one of the surviving victims.

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Speaker 1: They keep saying she has material information they could exonerate Coburger,

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Speaker 1: But the reality is her police surg report is still

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Speaker 1: under sealed. Nobody knows what her report says. It was

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Speaker 1: Dylan Mortonson that says she saw this figure clad in

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Speaker 1: black wearing a face mask, not Bethany Funk, So they

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Speaker 1: don't even know what her police report says. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: trying to ask her from her family home and make

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Speaker 1: her drive eleven hours to testify in Coburger's defense at

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Speaker 1: a preliminary hearing where the defense doesn't even put up

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Speaker 1: a case.

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Speaker 5: That's exactly right, Nancy, And up until this point, because

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Speaker 5: as you said, Bethany's police report is still under sealed.

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Speaker 5: So I don't believe Coburger's team. I have no idea

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Speaker 5: they've even seen it. But what his attorneys said in

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Speaker 5: the paperwork for that's the teenage. Like you said, they

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Speaker 5: believe she has material information that could be potentially a tory.

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Speaker 5: They specifically want her to testify about what she saw

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Speaker 5: and heard that night and insinuate that this could potentially

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Speaker 5: clear his name. Now, up until this point, we have

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Speaker 5: all believed that Bephany was found asleep and slept.

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Speaker 4: Through the whole ordeal.

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Speaker 5: So the only thing that I can speculate is that

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Speaker 5: maybe Brian Cooberker himself knows something that she knows from

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Speaker 5: that night which puts him, in my mind, at the

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Speaker 5: scene of the crime. So I don't know how that

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Speaker 5: would help her.

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Speaker 2: At the very best.

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Speaker 1: At the very best, she may be able to corroborate

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Speaker 1: something Dylan Mortensen told her, which would be hearsay and

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Speaker 1: disallowable in court. By all accounts, we believe this surviving

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Speaker 1: witness slept through the entire murder.

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Speaker 2: Guys, what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut three nine two are

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Speaker 1: our friends at Live now from Fox.

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Speaker 6: It sounds like the defense ves that the surviving roommate

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Speaker 6: has information which tends to exculpate or indicate that perhaps

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Speaker 6: Coburger is not the correct suspect, and they want to

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Speaker 6: call him to have the judge evaluate this testimony and

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Speaker 6: consideration for how the case should move forward.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure there's any real legal.

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Speaker 6: Way that she can prevent the defense from subpoenaing.

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Speaker 7: Her and calling her as a witness.

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Speaker 6: It may be that the court instead takes steps to

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Speaker 6: protect what she has to say and her face during

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Speaker 6: the testimony.

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Speaker 1: That's completely bess ackwards. That is true for a jury trial.

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Speaker 1: That is not true for a preliminary hearing. Let me explain,

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Speaker 1: a preliminary hearing is very simply a bear bones hearing.

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Speaker 2: For the state.

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Speaker 1: The prosecution puts up just enough evidence for the judge

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Speaker 1: to say, oh, you know what, there's a.

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Speaker 2: Question of fact.

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Speaker 1: DNA was found at the scene on a knife sheath.

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Speaker 1: It matches Brian Coburger. Coburger is planned not guilty, So

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Speaker 1: that's a question of fact. Is the DNA real? Has

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Speaker 1: it been contaminated? Is Coburger not guilty? That's the question

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Speaker 1: for a jury. Therefore, I will send this on to

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Speaker 1: Superior Court and there will be a jury plug a

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Speaker 1: jury trial. That's what a preliminary is. It can be

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Speaker 1: replaced in some jurisdiction.

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Speaker 2: It's not necessarily Idaho.

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Speaker 1: With a grand jury where the defense is not even present.

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Speaker 1: It's just a charging mechanism. This is not a finding

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Speaker 1: of guilt or innocence. And let me go straight out

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Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, director and founder of the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute and Strava hit podcast Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum

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Speaker 1: I've dealt with so many crime victims. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what it does to them to have to testify and

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Speaker 1: face the defendant on the stand.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Let me tell you something.

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Speaker 8: How do you invoke reasonable doubt to the court of

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Speaker 8: public opinion before a trial or before you call your

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Speaker 8: first witness. They just did it. This is a stunt.

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Speaker 8: This is an absolute risky move on their part, and

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Speaker 8: I think it's going to blow up in their faith.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've got the.

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Speaker 1: Emotion right here in front of me, and the first

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Speaker 1: thing I'd like to point out is that it.

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Speaker 2: Is full of errors.

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Speaker 1: They can't even spell the victim's name correctly throughout.

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Speaker 2: They misspell her name.

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Speaker 1: So that's not giving me a whole lot of confidence

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Speaker 1: in the defense attorney. And not only that, back to you,

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Speaker 1: Del Carson. Del Carson is joining us defense attorney out

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Speaker 1: of Jacksonville, Dell. They can't even spell the victim's name correctly,

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Speaker 1: number one, number two. In order to make a subpoena

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Speaker 1: like this work, it's an out of your diction subpoena.

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Speaker 1: You have to go through a process called domestication. The

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Speaker 1: Idaho judge has to send the subpoena or allow it

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Speaker 1: to be sent to Reno, Nevada. There has to be

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Speaker 1: a hearing to prove Bethany Funk has material to witness testimony.

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Speaker 2: None of that has been done.

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Speaker 1: Also, del Carson, I've researched the law on both Idaho

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Speaker 1: and Nevada. There is no legal precedent to support a

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Speaker 1: witness in a criminal matter returning all the way to

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Speaker 1: another jurisdiction for a preliminary hearing, not a jury trial

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Speaker 1: for the defense, that's.

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Speaker 2: Not a thing.

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Speaker 4: No, you're absolutely right, and you know it is unbelievable

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Speaker 4: to me, frankly, that probable cause was already determined when

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Speaker 4: the arrest warrant was issued for Coberger. That's the probable

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Speaker 4: cause warrant, and he was arrested, and now we're having

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Speaker 4: another probable cause hearing. I don't understand the system that

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Speaker 4: would allow that when a grand jury can secretly indict

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Speaker 4: him and avoid all of this, and it's not a

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Speaker 4: choice that the defense can make. And they were supposed

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Speaker 4: to make it lea within fourteen days and that didn't happen.

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Speaker 4: So something's going on here, and it's an effort, as

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Speaker 4: Cheryl Magic Cheryl says, to divert attention from the realities

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Speaker 4: and the realities are that DNA is connected with the crime.

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Speaker 4: It demonstrates conclusively in my mind that he was certainly

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Speaker 4: there and life he participated in it. Given all the

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Speaker 4: other factors, his effort to flee, his effort to hide evidence,

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Speaker 4: to clean his car, to do all of those things

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Speaker 4: are consistent with someone who's guilty of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, I want to go to

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnat guys, director of the Cole Case Foundation, former

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Speaker 1: homicide detective, host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room.

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna, you have been over and over and over

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Speaker 1: all accessible areas of the scene.

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Speaker 2: This is a stunt. This is a stunt to.

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Speaker 1: Terrorize and torture one of the remaining surviving victims from

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Speaker 1: that night. You understand the bloody, horrific crime scene left behind,

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Speaker 1: and now this tormenting a crime victim and doing it

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Speaker 1: through legal means. I don't know that much about this lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I've got a brief right here. Anne C.

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Speaker 2: Taylor, public defender.

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Speaker 1: I understood she was representing family of one of the

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Speaker 1: victims and then dump them to represent Brian Coburger. I

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Speaker 1: guess it was more money and more pr for her.

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Speaker 1: But that said her emotion, she can't even spell the

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Speaker 1: victim's name correctly. And this is a stunt to terrorize

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Speaker 1: this victim. What do you make of it after what

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Speaker 1: you know of that crime scene?

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Speaker 9: One thousand percent that this is a stunt, Nancy, And

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Speaker 9: I agree with Dale Enscheril that this is trying to

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Speaker 9: pull a legal maneuver to try this case in the

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Speaker 9: court of public opinion. And I find it really interesting

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Speaker 9: now that there have been two motions utilized to you know,

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Speaker 9: put this conversation into the public's ear around the gaggler.

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Speaker 9: So I also think this is a slap in the

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Speaker 9: face to the judge.

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Speaker 1: Well, the judge signed it. The judge right signed it.

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Speaker 1: So that makes me question the judge as well, because

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Speaker 1: the hearing that was card under the law was not held.

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Speaker 1: Here is the order that the judge signed. She didn't

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Speaker 1: just receive it. She signed off on the subpoena to

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Speaker 1: force Bethany Funk back to the Saint to testify for

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Speaker 1: the defense.

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Speaker 2: And I'm stunned. What more do we know, Caitlin Becker.

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Speaker 5: Well, we know that Bethany Funk and her attorneys are

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Speaker 5: don't want to.

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Speaker 1: Do there, Megan Marshall. That's the judge's name, Megan Marshall.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how long she's been on the bench. Go ahead,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Kaitlin Noble.

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Speaker 5: We know that Bethany's own attorneys are trying to fight

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Speaker 5: this sat and essentually a lot of the things that

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Speaker 5: you guys have already said, they're trying to quash this.

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Speaker 1: Hey, you just said something really important to Kaitlin Becker

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Speaker 1: from Daily Mail, and thank you her own attorneys. She

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Speaker 1: had to go out and pay good money, probably a

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Speaker 1: lot of money to a lawyer to fight this subpoena,

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Speaker 1: this our of state subpoena. I'm thinking through everything, you know,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, Lucky for US detective,

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Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Dupree, Let's think this through.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the early morning that Bethany Funk

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Speaker 1: and Dylan Mortenson wake up. Everything's quiet in the house.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's been calling and they can't get hold of the roommates.

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Speaker 1: So I assume that Bethany and Dylan went out and

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Speaker 1: tried to get the roommates and they come upon the

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Speaker 1: crime scene four roommates repeatedly stabbed, and they see their

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Speaker 1: friends dead. They are probably dealing with Sir Vibr's guilt,

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Speaker 1: which I'm going to address the doctor Joni Johnston, But explain,

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Speaker 1: doctor Dupree, what these two girls very likely woke up to.

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Speaker 10: That morning, Nancy. A stabbing or Sharpfort's injury crime scene

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Speaker 10: is always very traumatic and very bloody, and I'm sure

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Speaker 10: that this was a terrifying event. Finding their friends, someone

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Speaker 10: that they knew so closely in this kind of a state,

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Speaker 10: it would have been devastating.

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Speaker 1: Can you describe the wounds that these four victims suffered,

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Speaker 1: these young, beautiful University Idaho victims.

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Speaker 10: Yes, most of them were stab wounds. There were some

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Speaker 10: what we call slash wounds. One of the victims I

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Speaker 10: believe had defensive ones even and again Sharpforce's injuries are painful,

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Speaker 10: There is a lot of blood. It just would have

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Speaker 10: been a horrific scene to walk in on for anybody.

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Speaker 10: I think even the investigators you know, had talked about

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Speaker 10: what a horrific sing this one, and so to find

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Speaker 10: someone you know and friends, it just would have been

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Speaker 10: devastating to the young adults.

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Speaker 1: Chris McDonough and Ela Carson Cheryl McCollum. Also, I want

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Speaker 1: you to weigh in on how different a murder scene

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Speaker 1: is in real life than it is on.

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Speaker 2: TV, even slasher movies.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, Cheryl McCollum, You and I have been

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Speaker 1: to a lot of homicide scenes together, and I have

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Speaker 1: seen grown men walk outside and vomit. And that's after

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Speaker 1: a shooting, a single shot murder much less. We're four

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Speaker 1: young people that these two witnesses know intimately, they're very

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Speaker 1: dear friends, they live together, go in and they have

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Speaker 1: been slashed dead, multiple stab wounds. Explain, Cheryl, how different

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Speaker 1: in real life is it from what people are conditioned

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Speaker 1: to believe from movies and TV.

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Speaker 8: Well, let's just talk facts. Eye witnesses oftentimes get critical

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Speaker 8: things wrong because of the trauma, the shock, the just

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Speaker 8: denial of what is actually occurring. So when you combine

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Speaker 8: all of those things, just massive fear. All of us

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Speaker 8: have experienced, even in a fleeting second, being so scared.

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Speaker 8: We like, look in your home and somebody pops up

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Speaker 8: you didn't know was there and kind of scares you.

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Speaker 8: For a split second, your whole body reacts. Your entire

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Speaker 8: body just jerks away of what you think could be danger.

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Speaker 8: What they experienced in that moment Nancy is so unbelievable.

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Speaker 8: I don't know that they have processed it completely now.

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Speaker 8: And that's why I'm telling you. You can call miss

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Speaker 8: Funk if you want to, but if she were my kind,

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Speaker 8: it'd be the biggest mistake you ever made.

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Speaker 4: If I was a lawyer, you.

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Speaker 1: Are darn right in the famous words we've heard so

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Speaker 1: many times, be careful what you ask, my dear for

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Speaker 1: you will surely get it, amen. I think the defense

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Speaker 1: is banking on the fact they believe that Dylan Mortenson

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Speaker 1: and Bethany Funk not only saw the killer, but cannot

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Speaker 1: identify Brian Coburger as the killer. The first thing I

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Speaker 1: would do when that happen, as the prosecutor, would have

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Speaker 1: him stand up and walk in front of the jury

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Speaker 1: and stand up and turn to the side, approach the

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Speaker 1: victim on the stand and let her say, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: about the right size. That's the right size, those are

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Speaker 1: the right eyebrows, that's the right hair, that's the right

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Speaker 1: skin tone. Yeah, that looks like him. Of course he

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Speaker 1: had on a face mask, but he fits the description

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Speaker 1: of the killer.

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Speaker 2: Oh man. I would put it right up their tailpipe.

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Speaker 4: You asked about the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: Is this Dale Carson, go ahead?

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Speaker 4: It is. The eventeration of an individual victim is substantial.

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Speaker 4: They smell in the air that you can never shake

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Speaker 4: out of your head later and you remember it years

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Speaker 4: years later, and there's there's blood everywhere on the floor.

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Speaker 4: You end up walking in it in order to check

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Speaker 4: the victim to determine whether or not they're still alive.

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Speaker 4: And people don't see dead bodies regularly, not in that condition,

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Speaker 4: so there's a process of denial you go through. You

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Speaker 4: think you might be in a dream to see that.

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Speaker 4: And victims often report the fact that they are physically

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Speaker 4: ill after they see things like that. And this isn't

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Speaker 4: one victim, this is four victims. So you have a

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Speaker 4: magnification exponentially of the pain and suffering. And remember this

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Speaker 4: really important for the jury. These individuals and a visceration killings.

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Speaker 4: They suffer, there's a pain, there's it's dark. Suddenly someone

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Speaker 4: comes out of the dark and does this. You're stunned.

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Speaker 4: All of those factors indicate that it's a cruel killing,

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Speaker 4: which imported at least adds to the impact of the

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Speaker 4: charge against someone. So he's going to get charged as seriously,

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Speaker 4: and when the jury hears how he affected the killings,

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Speaker 4: it's going to magnify his sentence, you know.

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Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, I told this story yesterday, and I don't

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Speaker 1: like telling it because it's painful. But I did not

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Speaker 1: want to see my fiance in the casket. I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to remember him that way. And of course they

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Speaker 1: had done all they could to cover up the bullet

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Speaker 1: wounds to his head, his neck, and his back, but

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Speaker 1: at a distance. When I first walked into the funeral home,

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Speaker 1: instinct made me look into the area where Keith's body

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Speaker 1: was at the front of the chapel, and I only.

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Speaker 2: Saw a sliver a profile of his face above the

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Speaker 2: casket edge, and I passed out.

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Speaker 1: I remember it like it was yesterday, and I don't

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Speaker 1: like remembering it. So I can only imagine, Chris mcdonna,

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Speaker 1: what these two girls saw when they saw their friends

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Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times, sly stabbed dead from bleeding out. The

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Speaker 1: smell hanging in the air, it's awful, the blood now

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Speaker 1: sticky on the floor. I mean, that's something you never forget.

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Speaker 1: And there's nothing else like seeing and smelling that.

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Speaker 11: Chris mcdona Nancy, I mean, you're just your comments alone

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Speaker 11: are so powerful to listen to. And it's one of

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Speaker 11: these events where all of us in this panel this

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Speaker 11: morning discussing this always remembers that moment where you get

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Speaker 11: the information overload right and everything slows down. It's almost

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Speaker 11: as if you're living.

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Speaker 9: In the twilight zone for a little bit, and now

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Speaker 9: super imposed that on a child who's a young girl

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Speaker 9: who's at college and going up those stairs and running

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Speaker 9: into you know, all of this mass evil, the behavior

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Speaker 9: that they're witnessing, you know, the cast off from the

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Speaker 9: from the knife. The victims may or may not, you know,

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Speaker 9: positioning in certain places and thinking to themselves, you know

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Speaker 9: where am I?

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Speaker 4: What am I?

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Speaker 9: And I can I can assure you because I've been

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Speaker 9: in that scenario so many times. The worst part of

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Speaker 9: homicide investigation and is that initial observation of that crime scene.

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Speaker 9: And we heard it from the chief of the Moscow

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Speaker 9: officers that were first on scene. They were seeking counseling

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Speaker 9: post that witness.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of what victims by the way, you completely write

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Speaker 1: to both of you, Dale and Chris and also Cheryl

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Speaker 1: of course, guys, I want you to hear it from

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Speaker 1: the horse's mouth. I want you to hear our friend,

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Speaker 1: our colleague, Mark Class, victims rights crusader, after the kidnap, rape,

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Speaker 1: and murder of his little girl Polly, he has devoted

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Speaker 1: his life to finding missing children and solving unsolved Thomas Sides.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut three eight nine.

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Speaker 12: The young lady and I'm sure she's a resilient young

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Speaker 12: lady and this will obviously be a setback to her

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Speaker 12: psychologically and spiritually, There's no question about that. However, with

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Speaker 12: the right moves, she should be able to recover her life.

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Speaker 12: And when I say the right moves, I'm suggesting that

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Speaker 12: she probably could use some expert counseling. And the trick

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Speaker 12: there is finding the right person or a counselor the

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Speaker 12: person that's had the experience in this type of situation,

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Speaker 12: the person that knows the right moves, and the person

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Speaker 12: that can help move her from being a traumatized victim

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Speaker 12: who's been asked to turn on her friends to the

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Speaker 12: productive and positive thinking individual that she was before this

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Speaker 12: whole horrendous affairs Guarded and.

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Speaker 2: More from Mark Class In our cut three.

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Speaker 12: Nine one, I spoke to one of the girls that

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Speaker 12: was with Paulie when she was kidnapped, because she was

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Speaker 12: in a very similar type of a situation. She had

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Speaker 12: to testify as a child in the courtroom where the

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Speaker 12: killer was sitting, and she said that it was really

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Speaker 12: just kind of an odd situation, that she didn't want

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Speaker 12: to look at him, but she did want to see him,

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Speaker 12: so she kept stealing grasses at him as she was testifying,

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Speaker 12: and that in the final analysis, she said he was

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Speaker 12: looking down the entire time. So whereas this guy is

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Speaker 12: able to come into a room and terrorize little girls

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Speaker 12: once he's surrounded in a different kind of a situation,

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Speaker 12: once it's in a different kind of a situation, a

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Speaker 12: courtroom situation, he didn't even have the ability to look

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Speaker 12: up at the little girl who was so courageously testify

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Speaker 12: line in his presence against him.

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Speaker 1: I had the same experience when I came off the

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Speaker 1: witness stand in my fiancee case murder trial. I walked

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Speaker 1: past the defense attorney's table and they all look down,

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Speaker 1: and then I looked at the defendant, who also looked down,

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Speaker 1: actually looked at him first. They couldn't even look up

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Speaker 1: at me. I want to go to a special guest

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Speaker 1: joining us doctor Joni Johnston, forensic psychologist. Also she's the

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Speaker 1: author of Serial Killers one hundred and one questions true

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Speaker 1: crime fans Ask, and you can find her at doctor

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Speaker 1: Joni Johnson dot com. Doctor Jony, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Happy to question to you, what is survivor's guilt.

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Speaker 7: Surviver's guilt is kind of an irrational feeling. And I

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Speaker 7: say irrational because it almost invariably happens with somebody had

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Speaker 7: no control over situation and survived something that our friend

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Speaker 7: or a loved one didn't, and there's just this constant

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Speaker 7: sense of guilt and second guessing and pain around you know,

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Speaker 7: why did I get to survive? Why did my friend

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Speaker 7: or my loved one not Why didn't I help? Why

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Speaker 7: couldn't I do something? Why didn't I do something? And

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Speaker 7: it can be very very, you know, complicating in terms

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Speaker 7: of getting past that. In addition to the trauma of

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Speaker 7: all the things you've described, your other panel members have

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Speaker 7: described just coming on a scene like that, which just

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Speaker 7: can be so complicating.

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Speaker 1: And you know what else, doctor Jonie Johnston, and that's

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Speaker 1: Johnston with a T, Doctor Jony, this these feelings follow

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Speaker 1: you for the rest of your life. Now, I agree

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Speaker 1: with everything Mark Klass said about getting counseling for this

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Speaker 1: girl Bethany Funk and roommate Dylan Mortenson. But the truth is,

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Speaker 1: and let me know when I get Cheryl mccollumb back,

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Speaker 1: because she can vouch for this, the truth is that

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Speaker 1: as a crime victim, you are haunted from that point forward.

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Speaker 2: It really changes who you are.

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Speaker 1: I've had people tell me, which I don't understand, that

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Speaker 1: my personality before case murder is entirely different than what

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Speaker 1: it is now.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they're talking about. But it changes you.

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Speaker 2: It changes the way you see the world. Doctor.

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Speaker 7: I completely agree with you, Nancy. There is no way

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Speaker 7: anyone who goes through an experience like you've gone through,

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Speaker 7: or these young surviving women have gone through, who are

437
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 7: going to be the same. It is a life changing event.

438
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 7: It doesn't mean your life is over, that you can't

439
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 7: be happy again, that you can't be a productive member

440
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 7: of society, that you can't find a way to use

441
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 7: all that pain for good, but you are going they

442
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 7: are not going to be the same young women they

443
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 7: were before that.

444
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Cheryl McCollum is with me.

445
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute founder and director. You can find

446
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: her at Coldcasecrimes dot org or on her brand new

447
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: podcast Zone seven.

448
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: Cheryl, we have both dealt with so.

449
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: Many violent crime victims and what they go through in

450
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: the aftermath of the crime if they live to tell it.

451
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: And these two girls, I mean, remember, Cheryl, they kept

452
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: the fact that Dylan Mortenson had actually seen the killer

453
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: a secret copstead for so long until they could arrest

454
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: Coburger and put him in jail so he would not

455
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: be timpted to come back and murder her and Bethany Funk.

456
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: That's what we're talking about.

457
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: And now they want this girl and some ridicul pr

458
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: stunt for some fishing expedition to find out what she

459
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: may or may not know, to come all the way

460
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: back essentially to the scene of the crime.

461
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 8: You know, I think about dealing a lot. And that

462
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 8: first statement that she made when she said she thought

463
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 8: what she was hearing was Kaylee playing with her dog Murphy,

464
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 8: and then afterwards she had the realization of what she

465
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 8: was actually hearing were her friends being murdered.

466
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: She heard it.

467
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 8: She will never get that out of her head. And Nancy,

468
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 8: not only is this stunt going to blow up in

469
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 8: their face. They have not counted on mama's and daddy's

470
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 8: and friends. Those are the jurors that they are now,

471
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 8: I think ticking off before they've ever been slated to

472
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 8: see it. And when you think of just this instinct

473
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 8: to protect what's your a mama, everything else goes out

474
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 8: the window. I was in the grocery store the other

475
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 8: day and I heard this little voice call for mama, mama. Now,

476
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 8: as you know, I've got two twenty somethings now that

477
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 8: are my children. But I looked, almost instinctively, like who

478
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 8: needs me?

479
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: Who needs help?

480
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 8: That wasn't my child, But I couldn't help myself.

481
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: Oh, Cheryl, I'm telling you. I had to fly to

482
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: Corpus Christy.

483
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 1: The other day to speak to help support a women's

484
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: shelter at a group called Purple Door. There was a

485
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: child on the plane, and this screaming all that doesn't

486
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: bother me at all on a plane because I empathize

487
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: with those parents.

488
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: Every time that child cried.

489
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: Literally my skin it crawled because I felt that you

490
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: felt an instant to go help the baby, right, And.

491
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 8: That's what I'm talking about. We have an instinct to

492
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 8: protect Dylan and befany period.

493
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: You know, another thing, and let me throw this to

494
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker. Oh, Caitlyn, I'm gonna circle back to you

495
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: about the two surviving victims getting those tattoos in honor

496
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: the four slain students. Doctor Jonnie Johnson joining me forensic psychologist.

497
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: It's not just the survivor's guilt in the sense that

498
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: I lived and they didn't, but also apparently Dylan Mortenson heard,

499
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: She didn't realize what she was hearing, but heard the murders,

500
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: and she saw who I believed to be Coburger at

501
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: the time, you know, four o'clock in the morning. She

502
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: probably had a couple of drinks. She's like, oh whatever,

503
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: and went back to sleep. More guilt. She couldn't didn't

504
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: know what had happened. She didn't understand that she should

505
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: call nine one one immediately. But that's going to go

506
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: with her, that sack of rocks on her back from

507
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: now on. What if I had called earlier, could I

508
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: have saved their lives? What a would could have should

509
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: have is gonna haunt her like a demon from hell.

510
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 7: It is going to be difficult, and obviously in the

511
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 7: situations like this come up where people are trying to

512
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 7: get her to testify, you know, it's just going to

513
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 7: prolong that. And I agree with everybody on this panel

514
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,239
Speaker 7: that it is difficult for me to see how this

515
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 7: is going to help the defense because it's not just

516
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 7: the fact. I mean, I've got two girls in college,

517
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 7: though it is very close to me. But to think

518
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 7: about somebody going through that, an innocent college student and

519
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 7: then experiencing that, losing her friends, hearing all of that,

520
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 7: seeing all of that, and now asking her to testify,

521
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 7: and the defense calling her is just it's kind of

522
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 7: hard to get your head around.

523
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: You know, when you said you had two children, and

524
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: Cheryl said about her children, Alan, just pause, just briefly

525
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: and think everyone that commented and prayed for my son

526
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: who had a horrible blow to the head at school

527
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: at track practice accident, and he has been so from

528
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: a stage A level three concussion. And I've been really

529
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by all the love and the prayers that have

530
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: poured out from all of you, and i just want

531
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: to say thank you. And I'm thinking about this girl's

532
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: parents and the thought my dad and mom drove me

533
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: to Keith murder trial an hour and a half every

534
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: morning of the trial and drove me home, and I

535
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: wonder what they were going through as I sat in

536
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: the backseat and cried. This stunt, Caitlin Becker joining me

537
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: senior reporter, dailymail dot Com is so twisted and cruel.

538
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: But the defense may believe they've got a leg to

539
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: stand on. Take a listener our cut three seven nine

540
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: our friends at GMA.

541
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 13: It seems as though the defense believes that she is

542
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 13: information that would directly contradict his being the person who

543
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 13: they believe.

544
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: At the scene of the crime.

545
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 3: The defense saying their criminal investigator believed the survivor told

546
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: police things she heard and things she saw and could

547
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 3: offer details that cannot be provided by any other witness.

548
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 13: She might have information as to what the person looked like,

549
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 13: it might be height, it could be any information that

550
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 13: would take him out of the prime line as a suspect.

551
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: And that right there, Dale Carson, is a legal problem

552
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: for the defense.

553
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: She might have information.

554
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: When you out of state subpoenas someone back to the

555
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: scene of the crime to that jurisdiction, it's because that

556
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: witness has vital and material information, not because they might

557
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: She may she might maybe No, that is a legal threshold,

558
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: and certainly not for a preliminary hearing.

559
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: The Nevada Court is gonna hear precisely, and it's not

560
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 4: subject to the gag order. They're going to hear precisely

561
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 4: what it is that they think she can provide. It

562
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 4: may be simply a timeline as she or her remembrance

563
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 4: contrasts some way with the other survivor's remembrance of what happened,

564
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 4: But ultimately we're going to find out whether or not

565
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 4: there's teeth to the allegation that there's something exculpatory, And

566
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 4: what exculpatory means is that he's not the suspect and

567
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: said though the actual committer of the crime, and that's

568
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 4: not supported by any of the extrinsic evidence that we're

569
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 4: aware of today.

570
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: Cayleb Becker with Nancy, who's that Cheryl jump in This.

571
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 8: Stunt has now turned into a joke, the fact that

572
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 8: you think that child has got such a hell of

573
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 8: a testimony that she's going to be able to undo

574
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 8: that he had a victim's ID in his possession, that

575
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 8: he's got DNA on the knife, the sheath of the knife,

576
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 8: all the cell phone pings, that his freaking cars on video. Well, honey,

577
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 8: miss Funk, that must be some unbelievable testimony. And let

578
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 8: me just say this, I do not care what they

579
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 8: think that child could possibly say to undo this. In

580
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 8: the beginning, she had no idea what she was seeing

581
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 8: or hearing. Even if she described a man that turned

582
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 8: out to be the door dash driver, this is a joke.

583
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: Well, again, that was Dylan Mortenson, not Bethany Fank, who

584
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: they're trying to subpoena.

585
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: But we don't know what she said exactly.

586
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: We don't know because it's sealed, and a preliminary hearing

587
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: is just a bear of bones hearing to find out

588
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: if there's enough evidence for it to go to trial.

589
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: It's a safety precaution buffer for the defense.

590
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: Caitlin Becker very quickly, is.

591
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: It true that the surviving victims got tattoos in honor

592
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: of the murdered victims?

593
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 5: They did, Nancy. They both got matching tattoos of angel wings,

594
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 5: which are the theme is the same tattoo that one

595
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 5: of the victims, Maddie Mogan, had on her arm. They

596
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 5: got the same angel wings and in between them the

597
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 5: initials of all for the comp Well.

598
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: I predict this legal stunt is going to backfire.

599
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: We wait as justice of Fulse. Good Bye friend,