1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: It just dawns on me that even when you have 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: the biggest platform in the laurel length, you can, you know, 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: own everything you want to own. Being listened to is 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 1: what's desirable, and that's something you can't meet other people do. 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, I'm bridget Todd 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: and this is there are no Girls on the Internet. 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: It's time to talk about Kanye West. You've probably seen 9 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: by now that last week Kanye West and right wing 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: extremist riptor extraordinaire Candice Owens for White Lives Matter t 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: shirts at Paris Fashion Week, and when Vogue magazine editor 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: Gabrielle Johnson, the first black woman to ever style a 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: Vogue cover, joined the chorus of people who didn't think 14 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: that white Lives Matter shirts at a fashion show, we're 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: such a good idea. Kanye responded pretty predictably for him, 16 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 1: and by that I mean he responded by leaning into 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: targeting a black woman, posting Gabrielle's picture to his millions 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: of followers on Instagram with the caption this is not 19 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: a fashion person, So what's going on? Why white lives matter? Well, 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: white Lives Matter has been a thing since around when 21 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: white supremacist groups like the Aryan Resistance Society and the 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: klu Klux Klan adopted the motto to invalidate the Black 23 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: Lives Matter movement, and it took hold in all of 24 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: the circles that you would expect. But now Kanye and 25 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: Canvas are pushing White Lives Matter into mainstream discourse. White 26 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: Lives Matter is yet another political meme used to seed 27 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: and spread an idea. So when you hear the word meme, 28 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: you probably think about grumpy cat or some other jokey 29 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: image with text on it. But memes are pretty serious 30 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: busy this, and they can tell us a lot about 31 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: where we're at and where we're going politically. I'm Joan Donovan, 32 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: and I'm the research director at Harvard Kennedy Shorenstein Center. 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: And I'm the Dick, the director of the Technology and 34 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: Social Change Project. And I'm Emily dry This and I 35 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: worked with Joan at Harvard the Harvard Kennedy Schools Shorenstein Center. 36 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: I'm the senior Managing editor of the Technology and Social 37 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: Change Project, and I'm a journalist from White Lives Matter. 38 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: To lock her up or build the Wall memes have 39 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 1: had an outsized role on our political discourse. Dr Joan 40 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: Donovan and Emily Dry This study memes along with their 41 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: co author Brian Friedberg. Their new book Meme Warfare charts 42 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: the history of memes and how they've been shaping our 43 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: political and social landscape. How did this come to be 44 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: something that interested the both of you? Um, I'll start um, 45 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: this is Joan. Uh. You know, years ago I started 46 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: researching social movements online. I guess it's been more than 47 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: a decade now, where I started looking at the Occupied 48 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: movement and the ways in which groups were coming together. 49 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: But I was most interested in looking at how do 50 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: they find each other, how do they scale participation, and 51 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: then how do they coordinate that participation towards some kind 52 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: of social change. So interestingly enough, over the years, we 53 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,559 Speaker 1: had this broad, uh sweeping changes in our technological landscape 54 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: that has led to many, many academic studies about pro 55 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: social movements, anti capitalist movements, any kind of movement that 56 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: might be called a hashtag movement, for instance, like me Too, 57 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: or Black Lives Matter, or even Occupy Wall Street or 58 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: the Indignatos movement in Spain. So I had become very 59 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: acquainted with that organizing style. But one of the most 60 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: understudied pieces of this field was about the media created 61 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: by these movements, and so over the years I've kept 62 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: an eye on it. I've kept track of it, working 63 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: very closely with our colleague and co author Brian Freeberg. 64 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: We looked very in depthly over the years at the 65 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: development of different meme campaigns. And then when I switched 66 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: my focus to looking at right wing movements and trying 67 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: to understand how they get coordinated online, memes seemed to 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: take on a very um important relevance, especially memes that 69 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: were about what we now call cultural wars. Uh, so 70 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: you would see these content wars play out much like 71 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: you would see cultural wars play out in the media, 72 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: and memes where the mechanism and the arsenal by which 73 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: different shots were fired. So, after I looked at research 74 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: how left wing movements were coordinating online, I switched gears 75 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: and started looking at how to write a movement to 76 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: do that. And this was during the rise of trump 77 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: in and I had been studying the far right and 78 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: the use of DNA ancestry tests as a way to 79 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: mark identity, and so I was already embedded in these 80 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: communities when Trump was rising to power and I was 81 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: able to track the rise of the alt right real time. 82 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: And from there I realized that means we're having an 83 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: extraordinary impact on our political communication. But because they're funny 84 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: and they're ironic and they're hard to decipher, most people 85 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: that study the internet and social movements disregard memes. They 86 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: don't think about it as something that's going to move 87 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: fringe ideas to the mainstream. However, it once you start 88 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: studying mimetic theory and you start trying to understand cultural transmission, 89 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: it's a very useful uh set of theories for understanding 90 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: how our politics change. So you know, I have a 91 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: totally different background to Joan. Right. Joan is an academic. 92 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: She's a sociologist. UM, she studied, she has PhD. Uh, 93 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: And I am a failed philosophy major with a bachelor's 94 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: degree in English only because I tried to major in 95 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: philosophy but I didn't want to finish the requirements and 96 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: I it turned out I had accidentally fulfilled the English 97 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: major requirements without even trying, because I'm a writing nerd um. 98 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: But so we have we come at this from a 99 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: really different background and then, you know, I went on 100 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: to become a journalist because I didn't know what else 101 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: you do with your life when your only skill is writing. Um. 102 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: But one of my things I've been obsessed with, kind 103 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: of my you know, since my philosophy days, is how 104 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: do we make meaning? And like where does knowledge come from? 105 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: And cultural understanding of like if we have cool were 106 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: beliefs as a group of people, where did those beliefs 107 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 1: come from? And where did they start? Uh? And I 108 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: didn't get that much of a chance or I didn't 109 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: really understand have a good framework for how to think 110 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: about those questions when I was doing straight tech reporting. 111 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: But then during the campaign, I was running wired coverage 112 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: of the campaign and Donald Trump just presented this you know, 113 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: such posed such a problem for us in the media 114 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: because he was just constantly saying things that weren't true, 115 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: and yet they it didn't seem to matter. People didn't 116 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: seem to care that it wasn't true. Truth seemed in 117 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: some ways irrelevant. So I started looking into like how 118 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: and why did these beliefs form around and and and 119 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: is social media a part of it? Um? And so 120 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: I was like I did some articles about um, how 121 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: social media allows for such an hense repetition of ideas, 122 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: which this is an old, um, you know, psychological and 123 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: philosophical idea that like the more you repeat something, the 124 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: truer it seems. And there's like cognitive neuroscience to back 125 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: it up and that so that basically means like the 126 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: more someone hears something, they will think it's true. Then 127 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: when they hear it again, Um, what would that no 128 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: matter what the context is. And so once I was 129 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: learning about that, you know, it struck me that social 130 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: media is the perfect vector for that. Like social media 131 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: is a repetition machine, and you can blast out with bots, 132 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: you can use a hashtag over and over again and 133 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: then uh. And right around the same time that Joan 134 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: was transitioning to look at the right wing Internet, that 135 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: was when I also started grappling with having to take 136 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: memes seriously, because, as Joan was saying, a lot of 137 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: people were dismissing memes in academia and elsewhere. And I 138 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: will say, for myself, maya copa like I, as a 139 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: journalist who was assigning culture stories about the Internet and 140 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: assigning political stories about the Internet, was certainly not for 141 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: a long time paying attention to memes. I didn't understand 142 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: how powerful of the vector for communicating an idea they are. 143 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until election cycle that these like memetic 144 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: phrases like lock her up and um basket of deplorables 145 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: and and then that's where I even first became aware 146 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: of this idea of a meme war, when all of 147 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: these online trolls started or trolls and various others started 148 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: taking credit for this real life thing. Um. So that's 149 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: when I started to get interested in it. And then 150 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: by the you know, luck of fate, I got to 151 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: join Jones team, and that year spent looking at the 152 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: pandemic and everything that was happening in the media online 153 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: through the frame of media manipulation and UM and memetic 154 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: warfare really like gave me such a whole different understanding 155 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: of how everything worked. And then boo, January six happened. 156 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: So I want to take a step back because I thought, 157 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: as a pretty online person, tech podcast person that I 158 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: was like, oh, certainly I know what a meme is. 159 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: But I was surprised in reading part of me Moors 160 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: that the origin of the term meme goes way back. 161 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: I assume that it was like, oh, it must be 162 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: pretty new because we're talking about something that like is 163 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: a thing on the internet. So just two levels that 164 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: what is a meme? So in our book we lean 165 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: on some early mimetic theory. Richard Dawkins first introduced the 166 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: idea in the seventies to describe essentially cultural transmission. How 167 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: do people within a culture get access to the same 168 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: ideas and then also intergenerationally, how to these ideas perliferate. 169 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: You could even take a meme grumpy Cat and start 170 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: to think about, well, what are the other famous and 171 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: antagonistic cats through history, like you know right now, yeah, 172 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: the one that wants temptations right away, you know when 173 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: you know, but Garfield, Cleeve, Cliff, um, you know, they're 174 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: the list goes on, the cat in the hat and 175 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: of course um, the Cheshire Cat whatnot. You know, cats 176 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: as tricksters. And so within our culture, we have memes 177 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: that surround us every day. Advertising as a profession really 178 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: monetized means, especially around jingles in particular. You can think 179 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: about jingles like just do it or I'm loving it, 180 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: and you instantly know what brand they're referring to. And 181 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: so memes are all around us. There's nothing new about them, 182 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: but they do help us understand how small bits of 183 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: culture move through groups and move to new generations. And 184 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: what's most interesting I think about what we draw from 185 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: in the medic theory is that there's four main characteristics 186 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: of memes over time, which is that good memes tend 187 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: to be or memes that go viral tend to be anonymous. 188 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: They tend to be very sticky, that is, they'll have 189 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: a pithy saying that UH might ring out in your head. 190 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: That they usually are three words UM. They can be 191 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: UH participatory, that is, people will remix them, and then 192 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: they have this feature of bringing in UH in groups 193 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: and separating out groups. So if you see a meme 194 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: and you don't know what it means, you just move on. 195 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's not like you spent a lot of 196 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: time trying to unpack it. So, when we were thinking 197 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: about memes in particular and the far right, these are 198 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: acting as UH similarly to political dog whistles. If you 199 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: know what certain color schemes and skull face masks look 200 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: like with UH, you know some veiled racist language you 201 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: could have UH. If you're on the in group, you 202 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: know that that might be something that was generated by 203 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: Adam often Division or or Generation Identity or some other 204 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: far right group. But if you don't understand those signals 205 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: and those dog whistles, you often don't know where these 206 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: messages are coming from. In particular, and the seen election, 207 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: throughout Trump's presidency, he was tweeting all kinds of means, 208 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: in particular build the Wall, which came from two thousand 209 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: and four's Minutemen uh uh vigilante border enforcement gang that 210 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: had started um in the early aughts patrolling the border 211 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: on their own. So that build the Wall phrase once 212 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: you realize it's racist origins, not just because it's overtly 213 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: racist already, but that Trump was borrowing these things from 214 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: other places and remixing them. And so we in throughout 215 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: the book the memes act as characters that bring together 216 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: actors and the contents and different behaviors. And then what 217 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: we try to help people understand is how the Internet didn't, 218 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, invent memes, but they surely the design of 219 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: social media surely has impacted the way that we communicate, 220 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: in the way that we coordinate, and certain groups, particularly 221 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: ones that want to hide who they are or what 222 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: their motivations are, will use memes as a vector by 223 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: which they spread their ideas without having them attached to 224 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: all the symbolism, uh in the outright racism, sexism, misogyny, 225 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: and transphobia of the groups that are producing them. Well 226 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: and bridget as the I identify myself in the book 227 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: writing process and just in life um as a normy 228 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: um and so like the my normy definition and like 229 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: understanding of memes before I got into this was really 230 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: that a meme was a picture on shared on the 231 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: Internet with images on it, and and that is that 232 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: is a meme. That's a form of a meme. But 233 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: actually that's a specific subtype of meme that they call 234 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: macro macro images, macro image memes um. And with Dawkins, 235 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: who was an evolutionary biologist, who's the guy who coined it. 236 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: He was trying to create a word that was commensurate 237 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: with gene. So if genes or something to travel through people, 238 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: through bodies, through generations and like you will have the 239 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: same You'll inherit them from your mother or whoever in 240 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: your community. Um, well definitely your mother and also other 241 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: syne your community. Um. Same with memes. Memeless was be 242 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: like a unit of culture in that same way that 243 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: gets transmitted, so as Jones saying, like, all of these 244 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: phrases can be means. Slogans can be memes, but so 245 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: can a flag become a meme. So can a gesture. 246 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: If you think about dabbing or like, you know, there 247 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: there are there are Sorry I just have to interrupt 248 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: you because your normy mom voys came out there on dabbing. 249 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: I was like, wait, you know, I was like, oh 250 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: my god, Emily, come on. I mean, I am a 251 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: normy mom though, you know, like I'm trying. I'm a 252 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: deeply entrenched, extremely online normy mom. In my day, it 253 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: was planking. The kids were doing, you know, planking. Yeah, 254 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: so so that dates me as well. But so but 255 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: so you can see from all those things that like 256 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: memes as an idea, if we just think of it 257 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: as this kind of consistent idea that can be transmitted, 258 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: it can be visual, it can be oral, like it 259 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: can be a ditty um, but it could also just 260 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: be like a shape or whatever. What has to happen 261 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: is that it's consistent and then it can be put 262 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: into different contexts, and that in those contexts it is 263 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: conveying some central idea, even if that idea changes over time. 264 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: So like the um that we start the book by 265 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: explaining that the Gadsden flag, the that snake that's coiled 266 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: up and says don't tread on me is a meme. UM. 267 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: It was meant as a meme in the first place. 268 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: It was meant to but it was created by Benjamin 269 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: Franklin UM. And he he created it to say, like, 270 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: don't tread on me me A is us the in 271 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: group of the US United States, you know, and that, 272 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: And it was talking directly to an out group. Uh. 273 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: And it was memorable, and it was pithy and all 274 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: these things. And then it became It wasn't maybe a 275 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: meme when it was created, when it was created as 276 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: a flag. It became a meme when it became adopted 277 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: by all of these various identity groups and different people 278 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: who used it as uh signifier of their beliefs and 279 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: as a signifier of their identity. UM. And then it's 280 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: such a successful meme because it can be used in 281 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: all these different contexts. So we think of it as 282 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: like libertarian, but before it was libertarian, it was actually 283 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: white supremacist KKK people using them. Don't tread on me meme, 284 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: but it it also didn't have its origins are not 285 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: white supremacists. And then it's been used even by people 286 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: who are like um anti, who are pro abortion activists, 287 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: who are like pro choice activists um to say don't 288 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: tread on my body, you know. And but it's also 289 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: then been used as like a don't tread on me 290 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: for anti vaccine folks. So you can see its flexibility 291 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: and memorability. And then when you see it out in 292 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: the world, it gives you a sense of, maybe rightly 293 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: or wrongly, who the person is that is sharing it 294 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: or like holding up Yeah, the way that you put 295 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: that in the book is so interesting because I didn't 296 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: know any of that history of that flag. But you know, 297 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: the way that the meme has this ability to be 298 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: the contextual eyes co opted and used against its creators 299 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: because as you said, originally that flag was meant to 300 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: be like the United States, and then the way that 301 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: it is you know, adapted by people who are probably 302 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: not super into the United States government or like that 303 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: kind of thing, like how it is then used against 304 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: the people that originally contextualized it in the first place. 305 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating totally. Let's take a quick break at 306 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: our back. It's pretty easy to not take means seriously. 307 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: But in their book, Joan and Emily described how memes 308 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: can actually be a powerful means of spreading an idea 309 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: and pushing it into the mainstream and what they describe 310 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: as meme warfare. So if that's your understanding of what 311 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: a meme is, what are the mores? Yeah, So in 312 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: our book we try to open up with an understanding 313 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: that mean moors or something that have gone on long 314 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: before the Internet, especially in this uh moment. We do 315 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: open with the insurrection, and we end with the insurrection 316 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: and that and then in the in between chapters, um, 317 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: what we try to understand is the ways in which 318 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,959 Speaker 1: people are fighting over certain definitions of culture. So we 319 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: go deep into occupy not just to elucidate what occupy 320 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: was all about, but to understand it as a kind 321 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: of mean more where there was this new emerging definition 322 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: around this identity of what did it mean to go 323 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: through this major stock market crash and economic crisis people 324 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: were losing their homes and then how did that get 325 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: distilled into these very pithy memes like you know, we're 326 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: the or um and in particular the memes that we 327 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 1: started to focus on because we didn't want to tell 328 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 1: the same history that others have already told artfully, we 329 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: went in and started looking at, well, what were the 330 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: right wing elements that we're fighting for visibility At that 331 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: same exact time that we were having this more anarcho 332 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: libertarian type movement and Occupy I was pretty big into 333 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: the occupy movement, the global movement against economic inequality that 334 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: had folks like me camping out in places like Zuccatti 335 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: Park in New York or Freedom Plaza here in d C. 336 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: And if you were involved in the occupy movement back then, 337 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: you know that memes were a big part of how 338 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: that idea spread. From the rallying cry we are to 339 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: represent the global majority of people of the world who 340 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: are not billionaires to the image of a police officer 341 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: CAW's Relie Pepper Sprang occupied demonstrators at the University of California. 342 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: While these memes spoke to leftist like me, it's actually 343 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: been far right extremists who have really harnessed the power 344 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: of memes to spread an idea. Emily and Joan chart 345 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: how those memes set the stage for the meme warfare 346 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: that we see today and beyond. So we were looking 347 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: at memes like and the Fed and pepper spraying cop 348 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: in all of the ways in which the issues of 349 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: the day were being both nuanced and then flattened uh 350 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: into these different mimetic catchphrases and uh sometimes fun and 351 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: participatory memes online. But the rest of the book after 352 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: that we trace out of that moment people like Andrew Breitbart, 353 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: who did pass away but was a very important and 354 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: key figure over the years and bringing together right wing 355 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: media online and learning how to mobilize people on the 356 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: Internet towards specific political ends. We look at the movie 357 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: that Breitbart made with Steve Bannon called Occupy on Mask 358 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: and why that was such an key moment for the 359 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: right wing to figure out how to mobilize large groups 360 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: of people online. We look at Alex Jones and how 361 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: he participated and occupied by hosting a couple of different 362 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 1: Occupy events, and then we go deep into Ron Paul 363 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: and the end the FED movement, so that we can 364 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: understand that this doesn't just come out of nowhere. This 365 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: comes out of a struggle for definition, a struggle for 366 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: the definition of movements, the definition of the situation, and 367 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: so as we go through the book, we look at 368 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: the development of the man of sphere and misogynist groups 369 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: online and how they learned to mobilize and gamer gate. 370 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: We look at groups like UM white supremacists and looking 371 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: at the ways in which they organize online and maintain 372 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: their anonymity while at the same time trying to mainstream 373 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: certain sayings and slogans and also mainstream political violence through 374 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: their manifestos. We also want to stand I'm just gonna 375 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: interrupt really quick to just make the point that what 376 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: the reason you're giving those examples is because all of 377 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: those are communities that have engaged in mean moors, and 378 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: me moors are when UM people come together in a 379 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: coordinated way to use memes political memes to push their 380 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: agenda into the main street, whether it's a white supremacist agenda, 381 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,719 Speaker 1: whether it's a can it can be a pro social agenda, 382 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: like there could be a meme war that is using 383 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: the Internet in a coordinated way, all coming together using 384 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: memes to push an idea that is good, you know, 385 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: that is like uh moral. And then but then more 386 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: often in the ones that either looking at in the 387 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: book are ones where it's a specific like ideological agenda, 388 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: like women deserve this kind of a life or whatever, 389 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, from a place of like that. And then 390 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: they use means as the artillery in the warfare. And 391 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: the way that the meme wars like the terrain is 392 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: to use the internet to uh get other people into 393 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: your army, to recruit and draft people into your army. Yeah, 394 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: Like Emily's definition is probably a little bit more clinical 395 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: than my own of the moors in the sense that 396 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: for me, it's it's it's not necessarily just about recruitment. 397 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: It's mostly about the spreading of an idea. That's what 398 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: makes it great about having three authors is we can 399 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: still debate and disagree or agree on agree to agree. 400 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: And that's where you know, I actually feel like the 401 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: real research gets done is when we can challenge each other. 402 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: And I'm not disagreeing with you, Emily, what I'm saying 403 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: is that for me, it's not quite as linear because 404 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot of adaptation. So for instance, we uh 405 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: in our book look at white Lives Matter. So Emily, 406 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: Joan and I talked just days after Kanye and Canvas 407 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: is stunned at Paris Week with the White Lives Matter 408 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: t shirts, and somehow a few days after we recorded 409 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: this interview, it got worse. Kanya's Instagram and Twitter accounts 410 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: were both locked because he tweeted outright anti Semitic threats 411 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: of violence to go quote dead Con three on Jews 412 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: and other comments that really played into anti Semitic tropes 413 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: about Jewish people, like conspiracy theories that a shadowy bunch 414 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: of Jewish people are to blame for all of society's problems. 415 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: What's kind of sad to me is how Kanye swapped 416 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: the word Jews for a dog whistle like bankers or globalists. 417 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can say that those tweets 418 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: would have been taken down. Kanye West has thirty one 419 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: point or million followers on Twitter. That's double the amount 420 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: of Jewish people in the world globally, so Kanye using 421 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: his massive platform to spread white supremacist, anti Semitic talking 422 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: points is really dangerous. And its comments were full of 423 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: separating people into groups, you know, the uses and the thems, 424 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: and it's really difficult to see someone with his visibility 425 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: and platform doing this kind of thing as anything other 426 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: than a clear normalization of anti semitism, which we know 427 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: is connected to real world violence. Last year, there were 428 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: two thousand, seven hundred and seventeen anti Semitic incidents recorded 429 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: in the United States, an increase from So Kanye is 430 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: making these statements against the backdrop of a very real, 431 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: rising climate of hatred and violence towards Jewish people. And 432 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: of course Kanye's comments are making the rounds and exactly 433 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: the kind of circles that you would expect extremists, conspiracy theorists, 434 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: and white supremacists. He did a very weird interview with 435 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson on Fox News, and even Alex Jones went 436 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: on his show to take credit, saying, we woke up 437 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: Kanye West, folks. So if I don't sound very thrilled 438 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,479 Speaker 1: to be talking about Kanye West, it's because I know 439 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: that doing so is its own tricky thing, Because Kanye 440 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: West wants people like me to be doing exactly this 441 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: talking about what he's doing. It's all about attention. Of course, 442 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: It's all the rage and the news this week because 443 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: Kanye West and Candice Owens wore White Lives Matter T 444 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: shirts to his fashion show and so decidedly unfashionable as 445 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: the T shirts were very bran Now they were so banal. 446 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: I mean, come on it, Lee's bedazzle them or something, 447 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, like no more insulting to the fashion world. 448 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: But um, that meme comes straight out of white nationalist groups. 449 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: It's not the case that, um, they're saying all lives matter, 450 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: which is a different kind of meme about who gets 451 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: to participate in these identity based movements, and the uh, 452 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: you know, the washing out of um. You know what 453 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: a politically important saying black lives matter, Black lives matter is, 454 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: but to say white lives matter is something where you 455 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: are catering explicitly to white supremacist groups online. And it 456 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: is more than a dog whistle, it's it's a it's 457 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: a notion of supremacy. And of course they're gonna hedge 458 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: ironically and say, well, what's wrong with two black people 459 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: saying white lives matter? I mean, we're out here and 460 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: they're just playing that same identity game that then turns 461 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: into a meme war. And if you look at online, 462 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: who's really happy to hear that Kanye and Candice stepped 463 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: out for the white Lives Matter crew? It's white supremacists 464 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: and they're the ones getting all the attention and and 465 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: bravoing this this um you know, controversy for controversy's sake 466 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: type of act um. And so as we think about 467 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: the mean wars, we have to think about um not 468 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: just that you know, someone would get recruited into a 469 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: different kind of movement, which definitely does happen, but what 470 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: happens to people then when they start to Google or 471 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: search for white lives matter? Where do they end up 472 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: Because they're they're seeking, you know, to follow whatever kind 473 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: of intentionality Candice and Kanye had, and what they end 474 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: up with is getting loaded straightly straight in to white 475 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: supremacist message boards who've been saying this for years, who've 476 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: been organizing around it for years, And so it's just 477 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: an unfortunate and also very predictable kind of media manipulation 478 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: tactic that our book tries to show in many different 479 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: ways how the mean wors can be triggered and play 480 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: out and then lead people into these groups that UM 481 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: have this really disgusting politic well, and to jump on 482 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: that and just build off of what Jonah saying, UM 483 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: the Kanye and and UH kids owns example is really 484 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: points out also an essential part of the memors like 485 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: really one if memoor is usually a cycle. Um, and 486 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: one essential part of that cycle is media attention. And 487 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: so Kanye is you know, ultimately he's a celebrity, like 488 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: he's an ultimate influencer. Uh And saying with Candas Owns 489 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: like Candas Owens is out there fighting mean wars, amplifying 490 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: me wars on behalf of the people that she agrees 491 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: with and a lot of a lot of times. And 492 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: it is that we find that that kind of amplification 493 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: is then what drives media attention. And then media attention 494 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: is even if it's critical, media attention can be a 495 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: way that then that mean more reaches more people. Um. 496 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: So you know we wrote about White Lives Matter. We 497 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: wrote the book now a year ago because publishing takes 498 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: a long time. Um, but it's it's a lot of 499 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: people are probably learning about it right now because of 500 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: coverage of Kanye, and that is that's a phase of 501 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: the mean war is now this means that kind of 502 00:32:44,120 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: mainstreaming more. After a quick break, let's get right back 503 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: into it. I used to there was a time in 504 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: my life where I loved Kanye West right like I 505 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: idolized him. I could go I could tell talk all 506 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: day about how much I used to like him. And 507 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: so more recently, College Dropout is one of my favorite 508 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: albums of all time. I'm not gonna college. It is 509 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: the album that gave me the courage to drop out 510 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: of grad school. I was in grad school and I 511 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: list I put that. I came home and I put 512 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: that album on repeat, and I was like, I have 513 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: to leave grad school. And if it was where he says, 514 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: she couldn't afford her car, so she named her daughter Alexis, 515 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: Like every Alexis that I knew at that point a 516 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: message really good. It was a good record. It really was. 517 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: What a shame because here's my question. So in the 518 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: recent years, I've been like Kanye, like I love you, 519 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: but I'm just we're done. I'm not gonna you know, 520 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: I kind of divested from Kanye. And when the White 521 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: Lives Matter thing happened just the other week, obviously I was, 522 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, I was like, oh, this is same, ol, Kanye. 523 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: How I agree with you Emily that it is It 524 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: is up attention and media attention, Like that is why 525 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: you do something like that, right, Like it's a stunt. 526 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: You hope people talk about it, even if they're critiquing it. 527 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: How how do we responsibly talk about it, you know, 528 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: pick it apart whatever, in a way that it's not 529 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: giving them what they want. I I really so I've 530 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: been basically trying to ignore the White Lives Matter short 531 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: because I was like, how do I in any way 532 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: that I talked about it. I know that people like 533 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 1: Candice Owen's they feed off of attention, that's what they want, 534 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: And so how can we walk that line of talking 535 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: about it, critiquing it, putting it in the context of 536 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: the ongoing memors that you all are doing, while also 537 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: not feeding into what they want, which I believe is attention. Well, 538 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: so I think one of the most powerful ways to 539 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: do that is as a journalist, um, when you cover it, 540 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: because some of these things need to be covered right 541 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: and and some can be ignored because they're just media spectacle, 542 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: but some have real world impact or trying to and 543 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: they really do need to be covered. So one of 544 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: the most responsible things you can do is when covering 545 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: it and when talking about it, talk about the origins 546 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: of the thing that this person is is amplifying, talk 547 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: about who created it, why it was actually you know, 548 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: um made as a response to some thing. So in 549 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: this case, it was like a response, a negative response 550 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: to people declaring the black Lives matter. Um was why 551 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: then this hashtag came up as a reaction to that. 552 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: So talking about that and kind of the history of 553 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: these events, I think kind of takes the the wind 554 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: out of the sales in the immediate moment of it 555 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: having a media spectacle, because you can then reveal like 556 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: this is this is not just like some guy, This 557 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: isn't even Kanye like doing something transgressive of his own accord, 558 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: Like this is a long long history and there have 559 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: been a lot of people who have been waiting and 560 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: hoping that someone like Kanye would amplify this exact idea. Um, 561 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, it kind of changes the valance of the 562 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: coverage I think of it. And then you know, Joan 563 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: was talking earlier also about how these kind of memoirs 564 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: will influence the search results for phrases like this. So 565 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: if someone hears it, or they see it, and or 566 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: they see it on Kanye's shirt and they google it. 567 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: One important thing is that like high quality journalism does 568 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: rank well in search results, and so it's not we 569 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: use you know, there's there's a way in which we say, 570 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: like maybe there are certain things the media should not amplify, 571 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: but if something is already out there because it's at 572 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: the level like Kanye West is amplifying it, then it's 573 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: actually helpful to provide high quality journalistic explanations about it 574 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: so that when someone goes online to learn about it, 575 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: they're not only going to find information that was left 576 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: there by the meme warriors who are pushing that agenda. 577 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: And then the other thing, which I totally didn't take 578 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: my own advice, but I'll give it now and I'll 579 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: try to do better going forward, UM, is that you 580 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: can talk about these things without actually repeating the phrase 581 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: that is the thing that they're trying to get everyone 582 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: to repeat. So like we can talk about how Kanye 583 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: wore a shirt that was a negative reaction to Black 584 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: Lives Matter, and that UM wore a hashtag to people 585 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: who tried and have been trying to mainstream without using 586 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: the hashtag in our coverage too much, just just so 587 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: that we literally don't repeat it into people's brains over 588 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: and over and over again. The reason why we are 589 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: particularly attentive to this right now is while we were 590 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: writing our book, Brandy Collins Dexter was writing Black Skinhead 591 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: and has a chapter on Kanye West in particular, and um, 592 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: this notion of the black skin head is something that 593 00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: came up in a song of his that she then 594 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: idled her book after. But she's really charting the rise 595 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: of these black political outsiders. And so as I was 596 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: watching his interview on Tucker Carlson, it really resonated with 597 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: me that he is, even though he's probably the most 598 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: famous Black man that's a pop culture superstar, very iconic, 599 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: he still struggles to find voice and political relevance, which 600 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: is really interesting when you start to think about the 601 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: evolution of what it means to be platformed and what 602 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 1: it means to say things in public, and how artists 603 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: and musicians have this enormous platform, especially ones that are 604 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: celebrities who get covered in the media. But for some reason, 605 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: and I don't know if this is just an ethic 606 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: of the right wing or whatnot, they always assume they're 607 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 1: being silenced in some way, even when their voices are 608 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: so loud. And I just thought that was really interesting, 609 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: this idea that he uh, you know, speaks on his 610 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: own behalf. He says his only audience is God. But 611 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: then at the end of the day. I think he's 612 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: very influenced and the fact that he himself has been 613 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: struggling to find an audience that really respects him enough 614 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: to listen to these opinions that he has and and 615 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: that's it's just it just dawns on me that even 616 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: when you have the biggest platform in the world and 617 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: you can, you know, own everything you want to own, 618 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: being listening to is what's desirable. Uh, And that's something 619 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: you can't make other people do. That's such a good 620 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: point and it makes me think John about how um, 621 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: like when Bridget when you were saying how much you 622 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: used to like Kanye, Like, I remember the moment I 623 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: liked Kanye and like first became aware of him really, 624 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: um was when he was like George Bush hates Black 625 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,399 Speaker 1: and I was like watching that newscast live and it 626 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: was just such a transgressive moment where like he said 627 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: something that was so much like you're not supposed to 628 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: say that, you know, um, And he's always been transgressive. 629 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: And this reminds me of in our book. You know 630 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: a lot of the characters. We we go behind the 631 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: scenes of these memoirs and introduce you to the people 632 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: who are fighting them and why and and show you 633 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, what their reasoning is in their own words. 634 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: And it's confusing because they don't all agree on things. 635 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: You know, they're not a monolith in a way that 636 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 1: I kind of had thought far right, Okay, they all 637 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: agree on this, they don't. They have things that they feel. 638 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: Really they have disagreements about things. Um. But one way, 639 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: one thing that binds them together is transgression. That they 640 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: like to be transgressive. And then that's also why one 641 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: of the reasons why, uh, Donald Trump was such an 642 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 1: appealing figure because he's a he was a really transgressive 643 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: me be a figure. And similarly with Kanye, both Trump 644 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,919 Speaker 1: and Kanye have succeeded in both having a platform and 645 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: making themselves seem like a victim of not having a platform. Um. 646 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: And and they are being like transgressive against like in 647 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's case, the meme like the deep state, Um, 648 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, who's actually in control? So even if he's 649 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: even if he's in charge, he's not really in charge. 650 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: So therefore he's a victim. But and in Kanye's case, 651 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: it may actually be more like the real structure and 652 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: mainstream of mainstream culture and media coverage is in some 653 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: ways not stacked in his favor and so in order 654 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 1: to be transgressive, Like, I just think there's something there 655 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: that is the same. It's this idea that they want 656 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: to go against a status quo. Yeah, that's so interesting. 657 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this is such a weird example, but it 658 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: reminds me of like every kind of edgy in air 659 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: quotes I that I knew who loved edgy jokes and 660 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: edgy humor and edgy memes. And I could tell that 661 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: the reason why that felt like empowerment for them was 662 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: because it was it felt it felt felt transgressive. It 663 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: felt like I'm doing something that against the grain. But 664 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: what they couldn't see is you're actually doing the same 665 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 1: thing that like every other edgy teen is also newing, 666 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: Like you're trying to paint yourself as this you know, 667 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: iconoclass while simultaneously doing the same thing that everybody else 668 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: is doing. And you're saying at once that like, I'm, 669 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, doing something different, but you're doing something completely 670 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: the same. That is so true, And I know I 671 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: have met so many men like that. I meant, I mean, 672 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: why is it always men who were like that? I 673 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: met a man um a few years ago who was 674 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: trying to flirt with me, I think, and in his 675 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: way of larning with me was to tell me that 676 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: he doesn't eat food, that he's different from other other 677 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: other and other humans because he doesn't like to eat food. 678 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: I was like, dude, you know, you know, you're trying 679 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: to be cool, but like that just doesn't make any 680 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: any sense at all? Is like, yeah, those are Then 681 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: I stood there talking to him for so long to 682 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: try to figure out what he eats, and then I realized, 683 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: like I've been suffered into a conversation with a person 684 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: who was just trying to be like provocative and transgressive 685 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: on purpose in order to get me to talk to him. 686 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: And what am I doing? It's so boring? Yeah, m 687 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: that's the equivalent of I don't watch television, right, but 688 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: do you leave in content? Though? Like come on, you 689 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: break you don't watch TV? We love TV, you know, 690 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: like totally childhood now. But you know, when it comes 691 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: to the transgressiveness of me is I think that one 692 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: of the things that as a kind of an academic 693 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: practice yere is you know, once you get to the 694 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: root of a thing and you realize how many levels 695 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,279 Speaker 1: of abstraction of have had to happen so that it 696 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: can get mainstreamed and into the culture. There is some 697 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: kind of bitter bitterness to the fact that White Lives 698 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 1: Matter couldn't be mainstreamed by white supremacists, so it has 699 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: to be mainstreamed by two black people who are looking 700 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 1: for different kinds of media attention, right, And so it's 701 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: the wrong way in which the meme enters into public 702 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: consciousness as well. And so what we're going to watch 703 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 1: for and probably we'll see, is this battle over who 704 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,280 Speaker 1: gets to represent the meme now that it's out there 705 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: and the mainstream media is paying attention. And I just 706 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: did a quick look on Google to see what was 707 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: coming back, and yeah, we're looking at hundreds of media 708 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: outlets that are putting White Lives Matter in their headlines. 709 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: And the ensu doing uh meanmore that's going to happen 710 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: is going to involve people resurrecting old zombie content that 711 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: already existed. And then we'd already seen about half a 712 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: dozen online shops trying to sell a version of this teacher, 713 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: and you will see it start to crop up and 714 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: become something that it never was intended to be. And 715 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: I think that that's one of the main points of 716 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: our book is that these things take on a life 717 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: of their own, and then the people who are behind 718 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: them eventually they fade into the distance. And some of 719 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: them in our book in particular, if you look at 720 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: those that we're trying to mainstream certain right way names 721 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: after the election and those that went to the capital 722 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: on January six to quote unquote stop the steal, many 723 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: of them are up on charges or they're lost their livelihoods, 724 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,240 Speaker 1: They've lost their money. Many people that were very close 725 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,439 Speaker 1: to Trump have lost their jobs and their credibility. I mean, 726 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: the crying brad par Scale meltdown is one such instance. 727 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: But um, you know, the mean wors don't tend to 728 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: work out well for those who try to participate in them. 729 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 1: And that's where we are going to look at and 730 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: pay a lot more closer attention to what's coming in 731 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: because I have a feeling we're gonna see many candidates 732 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: giving a toe into Q and on. There's already, um 733 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: a couple dozen candidates that are running in the mid 734 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: terms that are using Q and on type slogans and hashtags. 735 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,719 Speaker 1: President Trump is now trying to revive Q and on 736 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: through through truth social It's likely once Elon Musk takes 737 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,760 Speaker 1: full control of Twitter, that Trump is going to return 738 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: to the platform and we're going to see many new 739 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: means and many old adversaries come back. But I think 740 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:12,839 Speaker 1: the one thing that our work really uh uh is 741 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: future casting is really able to h you know, I 742 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: don't want to say what we can predict what's going 743 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: to happen in the memoors, but in these mid terms 744 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: that are coming up, America First seems to be much 745 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: stronger than the candidates that they're running on the America 746 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: First platform. And this meme America First dates back to uh, 747 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: was it Johnson? No, it's Woodrow Wilson, will Drow Wilson 748 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: and then from there the K k K pick it 749 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: up and then it's had many different utterances within the 750 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 1: right wing over the years. But our chapter on joker 751 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: politics shows how the radical fringe of the right wing 752 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: that really wants to quote unquote just Groy the GOP 753 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: have utilized this moniker of America First um to bring 754 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 1: about their uh, sort of whitened cultural utopia online and 755 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: to discuss America as a kind of isolationist state um. 756 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: And this is feeding into politicians who want to have 757 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: an audience online so that they can spread their messages 758 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,239 Speaker 1: and they can spread their campaign materials. And so we're 759 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,760 Speaker 1: going to see a lot more of these memoors leading 760 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 1: into if it is the case that Trump does return 761 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: to social media. As we see this rise in conspiracism 762 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,799 Speaker 1: and uh, this kind of culture wars playing out through 763 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,440 Speaker 1: uh popular celebrities, We're not going to be able to 764 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: depend on the same kind of defenses that movements have 765 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: been depending upon for the last couple of years with 766 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 1: the platforming and d indexing. Uh, it's just not going 767 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: to work when it reaches a certain scale, and the 768 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: people who are running these companies are not sympathetic to 769 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,920 Speaker 1: the needs of community safety. And so unfortunately, I wish 770 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 1: our book wasn't so much of a crystal ball here. 771 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,400 Speaker 1: But when I when I look back at history and 772 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 1: I think about the future, I get really um vexed 773 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 1: by thinking about how much pain and antagonism is is 774 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 1: is going to be uh sort of part of our 775 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: political future if we don't really get a handle on 776 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 1: how to make sure that people are safe online and 777 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 1: how to make sure that politicians don't use the Internet 778 00:49:54,239 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: to politically suppress others. Let's take a quick break at 779 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:17,240 Speaker 1: our back. When you think about the future of where 780 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,200 Speaker 1: we're at, like, are you hopeful? And it sounds Jonas, 781 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,920 Speaker 1: it sounds like, I mean, I don't want to answer 782 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,880 Speaker 1: for you. That didn't sound very hopeful. Are are you 783 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: both hopeful about our ability to make meaningful change in 784 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: terms of safety online to get a handle on this, 785 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,239 Speaker 1: or how are you feeling after having written this book? No, 786 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm not hopeful. I'm I'm sad that we let it 787 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:47,319 Speaker 1: get so far away from in a mission of uh 788 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,759 Speaker 1: is building technology and the public interest. You have the 789 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:57,080 Speaker 1: same types of authoritarians seeking to rule the ways in 790 00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: which they used to go on on to TV and 791 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 1: rape EEO is the same way that we see them 792 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,640 Speaker 1: showing up on social media. It's no longer a tool 793 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: for movements to be heard. We have the very, very powerful, 794 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: extremely invested in their power. And when you have everything, 795 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,359 Speaker 1: when money becomes meaningless to you, the only thing left 796 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: to do is rural world. And that's why I get 797 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:30,200 Speaker 1: so upset about the way in which our communication system 798 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 1: has been over the years, and maybe even the last 799 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: you know, sixty seventy years, owned by and monopolized by 800 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,360 Speaker 1: a very few companies, and the hope of the Internet 801 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,879 Speaker 1: was that it wouldn't be the case that it could 802 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: be decentralized. But more and more we're seeing certain companies 803 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: take control over our global information comments and then not 804 00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:01,120 Speaker 1: be proper stewards or librarians of that in formation. And 805 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: so we need a broad whole of society approach to 806 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: returning to a public interest internet, lest we end up 807 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 1: with what we're getting now, which is more of the same, 808 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 1: a very very rich people who don't need to care 809 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 1: how we survive this because it's not going to affect 810 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,960 Speaker 1: them or their families or other people that that they 811 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 1: care about. And so the stakes couldn't be higher. I 812 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: think for a broad global movement to return communication to 813 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 1: the people. So, Okay, my answer is, or my instinct 814 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 1: is to be hopeful, because like we're living on this planet, 815 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, like we're not here we are. I got kids, 816 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 1: like I need them to be able to be safe 817 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: and uh, and I do think that I have a 818 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,400 Speaker 1: couple of things that make me a little bit hopeful, 819 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:09,880 Speaker 1: maybe more hopeful, um than not. One is that by 820 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,840 Speaker 1: like writing this book. Through the process of writing this book, 821 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,520 Speaker 1: what I learned is that all of these things that 822 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,799 Speaker 1: seem out of control, like Q and on which to 823 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,720 Speaker 1: me just seemed like whoa, it came out of nowhere, 824 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 1: Like what is this thing? The insurrection? Like holy you 825 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: know where the funk that had come from? Why is 826 00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:30,120 Speaker 1: this happening? It actually comes from somewhere. It all comes 827 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 1: from somewhere, and it's planned and it's coordinated, and and 828 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,719 Speaker 1: we can know that and we can find that out. UM. 829 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,719 Speaker 1: And so I guess that I think that there's something 830 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,400 Speaker 1: to be hopeful about the fact that you can be 831 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,719 Speaker 1: empowered by knowledge, like we can tease out how these 832 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: systems work and lay that there for people. And we 833 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 1: hope that this book is like doing that as a 834 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,480 Speaker 1: first step, UM. And then the reason to do that 835 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 1: right is not just so that like individual people like 836 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,040 Speaker 1: us can be like, hey, the reason how happened is this, 837 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,319 Speaker 1: but actually so that then we could all come together 838 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,279 Speaker 1: and like advocate for some kind of systemic, whole of 839 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:11,680 Speaker 1: society response that Joan is talking about, UM, and we 840 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,439 Speaker 1: should advocate for that. And we can advocate for that 841 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,040 Speaker 1: in some ways that you know, learn from some of 842 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,680 Speaker 1: the mimetic theory that we're looking into, Like you know, 843 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,759 Speaker 1: you know, the thing I said about repeating a lie 844 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,640 Speaker 1: over and over again makes it seem true, We'll also 845 00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,600 Speaker 1: repeating a truth over and over again makes it seem truer, 846 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 1: Like repeating the things that you believe in over and 847 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,320 Speaker 1: over again. If they're pro social beliefs, you know, bear repeating. 848 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,040 Speaker 1: And sometimes people will be like, oh, you know, obviously, 849 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:46,040 Speaker 1: the bedrock of progressive progressives in America and liberalism is 850 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,400 Speaker 1: like a multi racial democracy where we have equity and 851 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,279 Speaker 1: freedom and we don't need to mention that because it's 852 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,120 Speaker 1: like a given. But like you know, Givens, we should 853 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,440 Speaker 1: be repeating the Givens um and and the other thing 854 00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: I want to say is just that the book made 855 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:04,879 Speaker 1: me realize that m fighting these memoirs and mainstreaming these 856 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: ideas doesn't necessarily result in, let's say, policy changes like 857 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:16,000 Speaker 1: build the wall. Right did not build the wall. It did. 858 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: It did result in a lot of talk. It resulted 859 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,200 Speaker 1: in like, uh, go fund me campaign that maybe we'll 860 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,840 Speaker 1: send Steve Bannon to prison, um, But it didn't result 861 00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:30,239 Speaker 1: in an actual border wall. But what it did do 862 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:37,160 Speaker 1: in a very crucial way is expand the people's understanding 863 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:41,960 Speaker 1: of what's possible so like anti immigration folks who already 864 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:47,000 Speaker 1: had anti immigration beliefs, we're not before that calling for 865 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,640 Speaker 1: a wall, and they may not ever get one, but 866 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,960 Speaker 1: now they think of it as an option. And one 867 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 1: thing that I think the Left, frankly like doesn't do 868 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: a great job of is helping people have an amount 869 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,759 Speaker 1: gination about what's possible and what's better. Um, so you know, 870 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: we can ourselves like start talking about how there are 871 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,359 Speaker 1: things we really want and like, right now there are 872 00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: cases in front of Supreme courts. I spent the whole 873 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,319 Speaker 1: morning trying to figure out these two cases that are 874 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,040 Speaker 1: going to be in front of the Supreme Court that 875 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,600 Speaker 1: have to do with Section two thirty of the Communications 876 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,640 Speaker 1: Decency Act, to try to figure out, like, is this 877 00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:26,640 Speaker 1: gonna be a thing that's going to fix this? Like 878 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: are people gonna be held accountable? And what I learned 879 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,360 Speaker 1: is that those cases, though they seem to have a 880 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:38,200 Speaker 1: lot of merit, are not even being considered on the merit. 881 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: The merits are not being considered. It's a it's a 882 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: procedural question before the court. And just which brings me 883 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:49,319 Speaker 1: to this idea, this idea that like so much of 884 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,840 Speaker 1: the reason why we think change is not possible is 885 00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 1: because of bureaucracy and like entrenched procedures and norms in 886 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,719 Speaker 1: our legal system and in our roman system, and in 887 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,240 Speaker 1: our education system, and in the infrastructure of the Internet 888 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 1: that was built in a specific way that ended up 889 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 1: incentivizing specific things, and we think we can't change it, um, 890 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,760 Speaker 1: But the truth is like, actually, those things can be changed, 891 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,839 Speaker 1: and we could still have an amendment. We could make 892 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:20,640 Speaker 1: an amendment to the Constitution that would you know, codify 893 00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 1: row and give rights and do all of these things. 894 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,840 Speaker 1: But we don't even ever talk about that because we're like, oh, 895 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:30,200 Speaker 1: that's not possible. But anyways, I'm hopeful that we could 896 00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,160 Speaker 1: begin expanding our imagination of what's possible, put it out there, 897 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 1: and then who knows what could happen. Maybe something good 898 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:41,200 Speaker 1: could come of it. Very rosy, very rosy. You want 899 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment to protect women's rights, Well, I do, 900 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:51,160 Speaker 1: because frankly, amendments are like this is me like learning 901 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 1: my how the government works so late in life, and 902 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,840 Speaker 1: you know what, I've been learning a lot about it 903 00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 1: from TikTok, so thank you, um. But like amendments give 904 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,640 Speaker 1: amendments give rights. You know, laws don't give rights. Laws 905 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:11,400 Speaker 1: like in some cases, um curtail rights, they take away rights. 906 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:18,200 Speaker 1: They they enforce rules, but they don't give rights rights 907 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,520 Speaker 1: or or amendments. And like, I don't think that there's 908 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,400 Speaker 1: been a new one in my lifetime, and that is 909 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 1: is I mean, there probably has so definitely fact checked that. 910 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:28,480 Speaker 1: I'm not an expert in this, but there hasn't been 911 00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,000 Speaker 1: one in a long time. And there's this I spent 912 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:35,160 Speaker 1: this morning learning why, and it's like all stuff that 913 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: can change, and actually, like we could decide to work 914 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,520 Speaker 1: on that and then we could codify rights. I don't know. 915 00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,640 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of faith in government these days. 916 00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,680 Speaker 1: Teach yourself home health care. Joe, Joe's not gonna let 917 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,720 Speaker 1: us make her hopeful about it. It's she's like, no, 918 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:59,000 Speaker 1: I don't think so, not today on all days. It's Friday, 919 00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,160 Speaker 1: it's sunny out for me anyway. But yeah, no, I 920 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,760 Speaker 1: I hear you about wanting to have hope in this 921 00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:10,880 Speaker 1: world and wanting to have a positive social vision of 922 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:15,040 Speaker 1: where we need to go. But I don't know if 923 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:21,040 Speaker 1: that's possible with so many, uh so many of these 924 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,400 Speaker 1: types of people at the helm of our politics and 925 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:32,520 Speaker 1: our communication and maybe I've been totally nihilistic in my 926 00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:38,400 Speaker 1: descriptions today, but um, I'm not having a bad day, 927 00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, like it's like you know, I'm I'm about 928 00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:47,200 Speaker 1: your laughing, about your understanding the the contingencies. And I 929 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,720 Speaker 1: agree with you that if if people like the key here, 930 00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,760 Speaker 1: and the key is the question that began the you know, 931 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:57,720 Speaker 1: decating the research that I've done about the Internet, which 932 00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,280 Speaker 1: is how do people coordinate to do any thing right? 933 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,080 Speaker 1: And and there's a time for social protests, there's a 934 01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:11,480 Speaker 1: time for layering, there's a time for hiding and swarming. 935 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,240 Speaker 1: And so I agree it's going to take all of 936 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:20,200 Speaker 1: these things. But I also know that if we don't 937 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:25,200 Speaker 1: get our communication infrastructure in line, then it's going to 938 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: be used by those in power to further polarize and 939 01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,480 Speaker 1: divide us. And this is the big lesson of the 940 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:36,360 Speaker 1: last you know, five or six years of digital organizing, 941 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:40,480 Speaker 1: which is that it's amazing to have all of these 942 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:47,000 Speaker 1: open platforms and forms of communication that allow us to 943 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,920 Speaker 1: meet each other, to meet across the globe, to have 944 01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 1: these grand visions. But the only people I see building 945 01:00:56,040 --> 01:01:02,040 Speaker 1: technology for these political per this is uh is the 946 01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,280 Speaker 1: far right, And this isn't what it was like ten 947 01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,760 Speaker 1: years ago. I post occupied, there was an explosion in 948 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:18,360 Speaker 1: leftist and anarcho UH creation of social media platforms. The 949 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:22,120 Speaker 1: first Facebook clone I ever used was developed by people 950 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,720 Speaker 1: and Occupy, And so there seems to be a lack 951 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:30,000 Speaker 1: of investment in the infrastructure that allows for that kind 952 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:34,080 Speaker 1: of organizing that you're talking about, Emily to really take shape. 953 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,480 Speaker 1: And we're not going to get there without our technologists 954 01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:42,880 Speaker 1: getting on board and seeing this through because for so long, 955 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,560 Speaker 1: I think we've been able to depend on, for words, 956 01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:53,280 Speaker 1: the organizational means by which Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter have provided. 957 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:55,920 Speaker 1: But I don't think we're going to be able to 958 01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,600 Speaker 1: count on that in the long term, and I don't 959 01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:02,240 Speaker 1: think that organizing and like is going to be um 960 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:08,320 Speaker 1: as useful as organizing in the smaller local groups has 961 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,040 Speaker 1: been for many, many decades. And so I think part 962 01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:16,480 Speaker 1: of this is about trying to think through the obligation 963 01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:23,520 Speaker 1: to move out of just these UH biopic online spaces 964 01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 1: and to think about what is the infrastructure that we're 965 01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:30,480 Speaker 1: going to need to unite people who want to do 966 01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,240 Speaker 1: the street protesting with the people who want to do 967 01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:38,120 Speaker 1: the lawyering, with the people who want to change our institutions, 968 01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,520 Speaker 1: and I think that to do that, we're going to 969 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:42,760 Speaker 1: have to ask for a different Internet, and we're gonna 970 01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:44,480 Speaker 1: have to build it, and we're going to have to 971 01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:48,800 Speaker 1: fund it in many different ways. And um, you know, 972 01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:50,960 Speaker 1: I love the name of this podcast, There are No 973 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,800 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet, because it really reminds me about 974 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,160 Speaker 1: how all of the invisible work of women over the 975 01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:02,240 Speaker 1: years with infrastructurally or the fact that women were first 976 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,760 Speaker 1: telephone operators, and it is because you know, women with 977 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,320 Speaker 1: really long arms would get hired at at AT and 978 01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:14,080 Speaker 1: T and Bell because they could operate the switchboards easier. Um. 979 01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,360 Speaker 1: You know that women have been the backbone of our 980 01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:21,840 Speaker 1: communication technology for so so many years. And I think 981 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:28,960 Speaker 1: it's possible to do something bright and workable if we 982 01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,880 Speaker 1: invest in the means to do it, and we'd resource 983 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,439 Speaker 1: it well. But I hesitate to say we can get 984 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,360 Speaker 1: it done with what's around at this point because I 985 01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:45,960 Speaker 1: just don't see the political will within these companies, in 986 01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:54,280 Speaker 1: particular to build the Internet that creates broader public interest 987 01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:59,439 Speaker 1: in information. Instead, we see more and more drive to 988 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:05,160 Speaker 1: monitor eyes and marketize information. And even though our communication 989 01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:09,040 Speaker 1: one to one has gotten cheaper than ever. We're paying 990 01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:13,640 Speaker 1: the price of that in our politics, in our education, 991 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:18,320 Speaker 1: in our economy because a few people have used this 992 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:25,840 Speaker 1: technological change as a smash and grab operation on the 993 01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:29,440 Speaker 1: rights and civil liberties of the rest of us. And 994 01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,840 Speaker 1: so maybe I sound like a crazy Marxist at the 995 01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,960 Speaker 1: end of the day, but I do believe that communication 996 01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,840 Speaker 1: should be free, and I do believe that if we 997 01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:45,520 Speaker 1: don't make that a possibility, that the power of the 998 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,600 Speaker 1: Internet and the power of these networks is going to 999 01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:54,280 Speaker 1: be reserved for the chosen few who have always managed 1000 01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,960 Speaker 1: to come out on top. And when I say that, 1001 01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:02,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying particularly are artical elite and um the one 1002 01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:08,160 Speaker 1: percent who have bought up these communication networks um or 1003 01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:14,440 Speaker 1: made themselves millionaires in the process, and then will glom 1004 01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:18,800 Speaker 1: onto saying well, we don't need content moderation because everybody 1005 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,760 Speaker 1: is the right to free speech. But when that free 1006 01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:26,080 Speaker 1: speech is being used to hunt people down and stop 1007 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,680 Speaker 1: doctors from getting care to people, then we have to 1008 01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,280 Speaker 1: question if that's really about free speech. Sorry, I'll get 1009 01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,800 Speaker 1: off my soapbox now. Brigion, No, I I love it, um, 1010 01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,080 Speaker 1: I think like it's I wouldn't even necessarily say that's 1011 01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,880 Speaker 1: not hopeful. It's just a different it's like hopeful for 1012 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:47,600 Speaker 1: a different kind of thing, hopeful for kind of tearing 1013 01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,720 Speaker 1: down our current systems and rebuilding them so that they 1014 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,840 Speaker 1: work for more people. That's it's a big it's a 1015 01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:58,720 Speaker 1: tall order, but it's it's not absence of hope. Yeah, 1016 01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:04,760 Speaker 1: mm hmm, I hear you. And in the meantime, you know, 1017 01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:10,160 Speaker 1: I'll be selling White Lives Matter shirts at least at 1018 01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,240 Speaker 1: least bedazzled them, at least make them, you know, jab 1019 01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,520 Speaker 1: them up a little bit, the best ones out there. 1020 01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I still can't believe that, you know, I'm 1021 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,320 Speaker 1: sitting here and disbelief looking at it, thinking to myself, 1022 01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,760 Speaker 1: how did we go so wrong? And how are is 1023 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,919 Speaker 1: everybody taking the bait on that? And yeah, so maybe 1024 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:32,880 Speaker 1: that's where a little bit of my disillusion meant is 1025 01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:37,720 Speaker 1: coming in. And um, and I won't obviously, I'm not 1026 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:43,680 Speaker 1: going to be selling anything on eating if my sarcasm 1027 01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:48,400 Speaker 1: isn't coming through, it is canceling that's on my way. 1028 01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:51,960 Speaker 1: That's coming my way. So, Joan, you said earlier that 1029 01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,680 Speaker 1: maybe your answers sounded nihilistic. Um, and I have been 1030 01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,920 Speaker 1: thinking about nihilism a lot this morning. Um, And I 1031 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,920 Speaker 1: also I will My final parting thought is that I 1032 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:04,960 Speaker 1: used to think of myself as a nihilist because like, 1033 01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,920 Speaker 1: l L Nothing Matters. It is like my favorite and 1034 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,600 Speaker 1: only me might paid attention to before, you know, writing 1035 01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:13,840 Speaker 1: this book and doing this research. L O L Nothing 1036 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:18,000 Speaker 1: Matters was my meme. Um, and I've realized that l 1037 01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:21,880 Speaker 1: L Nothing Matters is not nihilism. L L Nothing Matters 1038 01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:27,240 Speaker 1: is absurdism, which is that nothing matters. But that means 1039 01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:30,400 Speaker 1: we get to make the meaning, we get to do 1040 01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,840 Speaker 1: whatever we want, and we should. We can do good, 1041 01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:37,280 Speaker 1: we can do we can have fun. And like our 1042 01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:39,840 Speaker 1: systems are not working right now, they're not working for 1043 01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,840 Speaker 1: like a vast majority of people, um, but we can 1044 01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,160 Speaker 1: we could remake them. And also, like I was learning 1045 01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,080 Speaker 1: about First Amendment today, hate speaking about hate speech, Like 1046 01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:55,320 Speaker 1: the First Amendment doesn't actually protect hate speech as an amendment. 1047 01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,919 Speaker 1: That's part of the law that has been built up 1048 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,439 Speaker 1: over the years of inter putting it and who wrote 1049 01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:05,480 Speaker 1: who did that, interpreting largely white male judges, you know, 1050 01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,800 Speaker 1: so like that's not necessarily surprising that they carved out that, 1051 01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:13,920 Speaker 1: like hate speech decided to be included so l L 1052 01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:18,479 Speaker 1: nothing matters, But therefore we can change everything if we 1053 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:23,519 Speaker 1: want ourselves. Words to fucking live by. The book is 1054 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,960 Speaker 1: mean Words. The untold story of the online battles offending 1055 01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,479 Speaker 1: democracy in America. Joan Emily, thank you so much for 1056 01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,280 Speaker 1: being here. Um. Is there anything that I did not 1057 01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:37,800 Speaker 1: ask that you want to make sure gets included? By 1058 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,760 Speaker 1: Black Skinhead by Brandy Collins. Oh yeah, we're gonna have 1059 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:46,240 Speaker 1: her on a learning your pocket book. Yes, we're gonna 1060 01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:49,320 Speaker 1: have her on very soon. Um. I'm part way through 1061 01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:56,599 Speaker 1: the book. It's so good. Got a story about an 1062 01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,479 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech. I just want to say Hi. 1063 01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,240 Speaker 1: You can be just had hello at tang godi dot com. 1064 01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,439 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tang 1065 01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:05,679 Speaker 1: godi dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet 1066 01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,080 Speaker 1: was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of 1067 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:11,000 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our 1068 01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,360 Speaker 1: executive producer, Terry Harrison as our producer and sound engineer. 1069 01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,960 Speaker 1: Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. 1070 01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:20,599 Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review 1071 01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,960 Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts for more podcasts from i heeart Radio. 1072 01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,360 Speaker 1: Check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 1073 01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:27,360 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.