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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of the Buck Brief.
Speaker 2: We're joined by Julianna Mercer. She is a Marine Corps
Speaker 2: veteran and the director of Public Advocates advocacy for Healing Breakthrough,
Speaker 2: which you'll tell us about here us to do with
Speaker 2: veterans and PTSD and treatment. Juliana, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2: First of all, thank you for your service.
Speaker 1: Thank you so great to be here. Buck.
Speaker 3: All right, let's start with this. You're in the Marine Corps.
Speaker 2: Now you're doing work to help fellow veterans through this organization,
Speaker 2: Healing Breakthrough.
Speaker 3: What is this entity? What does it do? What do
Speaker 3: you focus on?
Speaker 4: So, Healing Breakthrough has a mission to get MDMA assisted
Speaker 4: therapy into the VA system for all veterans that can
Speaker 4: benefit from it, and by benefit from it, it means
Speaker 4: heal and solve their PTSD. MDMA just received their new
Speaker 4: drug applification from the FDA with final results of seventy
Speaker 4: one percent efficacy in eliminating a PTSD diagnosis and of
Speaker 4: those that didn't get completely eliminate their diagnosis. They have
Speaker 4: an eighty six percent reduction in symptoms. You compare that
Speaker 4: to our current gold standards, where we're only seeing a
Speaker 4: thirty percent reduction in symptoms. You can see why this
Speaker 4: is something that's really exciting and we want to make
Speaker 4: sure we get into the hands of veterans.
Speaker 2: So if you could walk me through this a little bit.
Speaker 2: MDMA this is like ecstasy is what people usually call it, right,
Speaker 2: I mean as the street drug name, So go ahead, correct.
Speaker 4: So there is MDMA found in ecstasy, but the pharmaceutical
Speaker 4: that has been used for these clinical trials and that
Speaker 4: it is going to be FDA approved, is very different
Speaker 4: from the street drug. It's unadulterated and it's not mixed
Speaker 4: with anything that you would find on the streets.
Speaker 2: No sure or different. I'm just wondering how did this
Speaker 2: come about? Like take me back to the beginning here.
Speaker 2: I mean, for I have heard and you're hearing more
Speaker 2: and more about this. People are talking about ayahuasca and
Speaker 2: the veteran community. I have friends, particularly from the special
Speaker 2: operations side, who have taken who have gone on these
Speaker 2: you know, going to these sort of special medical clinics.
Speaker 2: Some of them are outside of the US, and they
Speaker 2: take drugs that are still not even It's not just
Speaker 2: that they're not given here, they're still technically illegal here.
Speaker 2: And some of them have had very powerful results. And
Speaker 2: they're friends of mine, So I know something's going on here, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, they're telling me they took aahuascar. There's another one.
Speaker 2: I'm forgetting the name. What starts with an R. I think, yes,
Speaker 2: I begain, I begain, thank you? I begin like, where
Speaker 2: does this Where does this research? Where did this start?
Speaker 2: How did we get into this realm where I mean,
Speaker 2: you're doing public advocacy for this?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: How did anyone figure out that some of these drugs
Speaker 2: I think I begain comes from like a toad venom
Speaker 2: basically that is distilled, Is that right or something like that?
Speaker 4: One of these medications that's five MEODMT comes from the
Speaker 4: toad venom I again comes from the African root. So
Speaker 4: there you're seeing and hearing a lot of folks leaving
Speaker 4: the country going to get healing through these therapies in
Speaker 4: places where it's not illegal. I personally was able to
Speaker 4: experience one of these therapies. One of the breakthrough therapies
Speaker 4: outside of the US and was able to see almost
Speaker 4: twenty years of trauma and grief just completely leave my
Speaker 4: body overnight, and with the help of talk therapy, was
Speaker 4: able to really get to the root cause of my
Speaker 4: issues and was able to heal. And that is kind
Speaker 4: of what got me on the track of doing this advocacy,
Speaker 4: learning about these modalities. So back to MDMA, which is
Speaker 4: the one that's going.
Speaker 1: To be FDA approved.
Speaker 4: It was formulated in nineteen twelve by Merk and it
Speaker 4: was being used for talk therapy very successfully, but it
Speaker 4: did leak out into the rave scene and was scheduled
Speaker 4: by the DEA in the mid eighties, and so that
Speaker 4: effective use was no our healthcare providers were no longer
Speaker 4: able to use it. And so for the last thirty
Speaker 4: years there's been an organization called maps now lycos that
Speaker 4: has been making sure that the research doesn't get lost.
Speaker 4: So it's taken thirty years for them to get this
Speaker 4: through the FDA process, and we just saw the new
Speaker 4: drug application get accepted and we're anticipating FDA approval for
Speaker 4: MDMA assisted therapy in August of this year.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is fascinating stuff. What I mean I
Speaker 2: have so many questions. One of them is, how is
Speaker 2: the medical community reacting to this so far?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Because these are you know, we've always known when it
Speaker 2: comes to opiates, for example, that it's been known for
Speaker 2: a very long time, centuries, if not a millennia, that
Speaker 2: these things can be used for pain management, right, also
Speaker 2: highly addictive and can be dangerous. But people generally don't
Speaker 2: think of some of these other drugs, and specifically MDMA
Speaker 2: as something that is therapy. It's so ingrained in the
Speaker 2: public mind. This is a part, as you said, a
Speaker 2: party drug, a rave drug, that this could help treat
Speaker 2: and or even possibly in some cases, not all, but
Speaker 2: some cure veterans of extreme PTSD that they have been
Speaker 2: dealing with as a result of the wars we've been
Speaker 2: fighting abroad. That's a lot i thing for people to
Speaker 2: take in. How is the medical community reacting. Are there
Speaker 2: are there big advocates for it? Are they scared they
Speaker 2: don't want to go near it because the stuff is
Speaker 2: technically illegal still?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think the medical community and the community
Speaker 4: at large is has been starting to be educated on
Speaker 4: the great potential of these novel treatments.
Speaker 1: They're also.
Speaker 4: Destigmatizing through the veteran voices that you're hearing. So veterans
Speaker 4: are coming home and they're touching their communities with these
Speaker 4: voices and saying, after fifteen years of complex chronic PTSD,
Speaker 4: this one illegal medication that I had to leave the
Speaker 4: country for gave me twenty years worth of therapy. And
Speaker 4: so the veteran voices helping to destigmatize We're also we
Speaker 4: have folks inside of the VA at the top and
Speaker 4: the bottom that are working to study these substances. They're
Speaker 4: being studied at all of our higher ed institutions. Harvard, Yale,
Speaker 4: Johns Hopkins is also studying these. So there's been a
Speaker 4: lot more science behind it and a lot more education happening.
Speaker 4: So people are starting to understand the potential use of
Speaker 4: these and a lot of the science is also showing
Speaker 4: us that there is minimal to little harm when you
Speaker 4: use these substance correctly with the help of a mental
Speaker 4: health care provider.
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Speaker 2: three three nine nine to five Gold Juliana in terms
Speaker 2: of the risks, and I guess, you know what, what
Speaker 2: do the NA say? Are there naysayers about this? Are
Speaker 2: there people who try to just dismiss this out of hand?
Speaker 2: Do they say it's dangerous to be treating anybody, not
Speaker 2: just veterans with MDMA. I'm sure there has to be
Speaker 2: some bureaucratic or institutional pushback or is there.
Speaker 1: There is? But it's minimal.
Speaker 4: I'm on the hill every day talking to our legislators,
Speaker 4: and when I'm able to explain to them the science
Speaker 4: behind this, and I'm able to show them that this
Speaker 4: is a treatment that has medical value, it's a lot
Speaker 4: easier for them to wrap their heads around it. We
Speaker 4: are still fighting the stigma of the you know, the
Speaker 4: the sixties and seventies, the War on drugs, and are
Speaker 4: our DEA telling us that these are Schedule one substances,
Speaker 4: which means they hold no medical value. And so we're
Speaker 4: finding out now that that is not true, and through
Speaker 4: the science and research, we're able to start to help
Speaker 4: people change their minds about the stories that we were
Speaker 4: told that these had no medical use.
Speaker 3: Is there any.
Speaker 2: Change in legislation that may be coming that would address
Speaker 2: the legality of this for medicinal use. And we've seen
Speaker 2: something of a progression like that over the course of
Speaker 2: many years with marijuana. And there used to be a
Speaker 2: lot of talk, gosh, I think, like twenty years ago
Speaker 2: now about medicinal marijuana for specifically glaucoma and some other conditions,
Speaker 2: and some of the studies.
Speaker 3: For it or that were in support of it.
Speaker 2: Now marijuana has also just gone legal in a lot
Speaker 2: of places at the state level. Is there an interest
Speaker 2: in changing the law so that veterans have I mean
Speaker 2: just the fact that they have to leave the country
Speaker 2: to get this therapy. And I know it's not just
Speaker 2: MDMA we mentioned I begain and some of the others ayahuasca.
Speaker 2: That seems to be an impediment that's unnecessary given the
Speaker 2: results that are already being seen.
Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things happening.
Speaker 4: The Breakthrough Therapy's act is looking to reschedule Schedule one
Speaker 4: substances to Schedule two when the FDA deems them a
Speaker 4: breakthrough therapy.
Speaker 1: So breakthrough therapy.
Speaker 4: Designation means that there's great promise through this medication and the.
Speaker 1: FDA will fast track it through the FDA process.
Speaker 4: When it's a Schedule one substance, there's a lot of
Speaker 4: barriers to research. MDMA, for example, receive breakthrough therapy status
Speaker 4: in twenty seventeen, and it's been almost eight years until
Speaker 4: we're going.
Speaker 1: To see it actually be FDA approved.
Speaker 4: So because of those barriers to studying schedule one substances,
Speaker 4: we're seeing a pause in how quickly we can get
Speaker 4: these medications approved and studied. So the Breakthrough Therapy is
Speaker 4: ACT is hoping to correct that so it's easier to
Speaker 4: study substances when they get rescheduled and deemed a breakthrough therapy.
Speaker 1: The other thing that we're doing.
Speaker 4: Is trying to ensure that the VA is ready to
Speaker 4: roll out MDMA assisted therapy in the VA system as
Speaker 4: soon as md A is FDA approved. There you mentioned
Speaker 4: some of these other compounds. They show great promise and
Speaker 4: they're in various various parts of the research funnel. There's
Speaker 4: over I think there's over five hundred different psychedelic compounds
Speaker 4: that are being studied, and it's not just for mental
Speaker 4: health conditions. It's also for pain management for Alzheimer's. There's
Speaker 4: a lot of different ways that these modalities can be
Speaker 4: potentially helpful to a lot of the things that we've
Speaker 4: been lacking answers.
Speaker 2: You mentioned a piece of legislation, Where does that stand
Speaker 2: right now on the hill? And and are you getting
Speaker 2: you know, veterans issues is one of the few areas
Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, we're we're really just focusing
Speaker 2: on your area and your expertise here in my h
Speaker 2: in my day job, you could say, Juliana, I spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time thinking about politics, right, Veterans issue
Speaker 2: is one of the few areas where you can get
Speaker 2: a lot of bipartisan consensus generally speaking. Are you seeing
Speaker 2: that on this issue? Are are both sides equally willing
Speaker 2: to consider some of these these new breakthrough therapies even
Speaker 2: though there's this kind of public stigma about some of
Speaker 2: these substances. Let's be honest. I mean, what's what's the
Speaker 2: temperature like on the hill?
Speaker 4: I think it's the most bipartisan issue on the hill.
Speaker 4: Our legislators have been, like like myself, trying to find
Speaker 4: solutions to the veterans suicide epidemic, and we've been banging
Speaker 4: our heads against the wall because we haven't had any
Speaker 4: solution that actually works. So when I walk into their offices,
Speaker 4: and I show them a solution that two thirds of
Speaker 4: those that go through this treatment no longer qualify for
Speaker 4: a PTSD diagnosis.
Speaker 1: This is the answer that they have been looking for
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 4: And so I'm finding very little resistance to getting support
Speaker 4: for ensuring that MDMA assisted therapy is available in the
Speaker 4: VA system.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's so important for a lot
Speaker 2: of the people listening or watching now know people or
Speaker 2: maybe they themselves have PTSD and if you told any
Speaker 2: of them, and I know this from talking to them
Speaker 2: about it over the course of many years, now that
Speaker 2: they had a two to one hundred chance of really
Speaker 2: getting all the you know, as long as it wasn't
Speaker 2: extremely dangerous or something for they would take that right.
Speaker 3: I mean they would because some.
Speaker 2: Of them haven't found a lot of success with cognitive
Speaker 2: therapy alone. Some of them still struggle with the flashbacks
Speaker 2: and things like that. So when you're talking about a
Speaker 2: two out of three shot, I think that that just
Speaker 2: goes to show how promising this is and what a
Speaker 2: breakthrough this could be. Just taking a moment here for
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Speaker 3: I donate every month. It's really easy, you can set
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Speaker 2: Please team join me in this one T two T
Speaker 2: dot org. Juliana, thank you for telling us all about this.
Speaker 2: I know you're you're on the hill and you're trying
Speaker 2: to move the ball forward with legislation. For anybody who's
Speaker 2: interested either in just learning more or also perhaps helping
Speaker 2: out or maybe finding some of the resources that could
Speaker 2: be available to them if they themselves have a service
Speaker 2: related PTSD, where can people go and how can they
Speaker 2: get involved?
Speaker 4: Healing Breakthrough dot org for more information. If you're interested
Speaker 4: in the clinical trials, it's a clinicaltrials dot gov. And
Speaker 4: if you're a veteran that is looking to connect with
Speaker 4: these therapies, Heroicheartsproject dot org.
Speaker 2: All Right, there we go. Juanna, thank you again for
Speaker 2: your service and your time today. We appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Buck, great talking to you.
Speaker 3: Thank you.