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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And six thousand refugees have entered the

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Speaker 1: United States since October, but all but three of them

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Speaker 1: are white South Africans. We have such a great show

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Speaker 1: for you today, the New Republics Meredith Shiner stops by

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Speaker 1: to talk about our ungovernable Congress not governing. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to ms now's Andrew Weisman about his new book,

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Speaker 1: which is already a huge bestseller, Liar's Kingdom, How to

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Speaker 1: Stop Trump's Deceit and Save America. Plus as a bonus,

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Speaker 1: we have Theo Baker on his new book, How to

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Speaker 1: Rule the World in Education and Power at Stanford University.

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Speaker 2: But first the news, Smiley, We're back to the voting machines.

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Speaker 2: Are why mister Trump Boston twenty twenty Cleta Mitchell is

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Speaker 2: seed making plans? Howard? What Nick is going along with this?

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Speaker 2: Tamidian voting loves to sue? What do we think is

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Speaker 2: going to happen here?

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Speaker 1: I think the really important tension here, if you're looking

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Speaker 1: at this, is that Trump knows everything he's doing is

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Speaker 1: unpopular Trump knows he's going to lose. Trump doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to lose, and so Trump has decided to do anything

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Speaker 1: he can to not lose, and that means elevating Cleta

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Speaker 1: Mitchell to take a whack at voting machines. The Trump

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Speaker 1: administration floated banning voting machines in over fifty percent of

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Speaker 1: the country by deeming dominion voting machines, by the way,

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Speaker 1: the very litigious dominion voting machines used by twenty seven

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Speaker 1: mostly blue states, as a national security risk. Here's what's

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Speaker 1: going to happen. Not that not going to work. And again,

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Speaker 1: the good news about things like the slush fund and

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Speaker 1: the dominion voting machine trying to take a dominion voting

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Speaker 1: machines and many of the other stuff that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: has cooked up recently, like tearing down the East Wing,

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Speaker 1: is that it's not gonna work. Like this stuff is stupid,

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Speaker 1: it's badly thought out, and he's not gonna be able

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Speaker 1: to do it.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: Is it scary? Yes? Is it crazy to have a

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Speaker 1: president who decides that he's not gonna win and so

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Speaker 1: he's just gonna attack our institutions. Yeah, this is a

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Speaker 1: nightmare scenario. This is a scenario that we all said

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Speaker 1: was probably gonna happen, and why we thought you should

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Speaker 1: vote for the lady candidate and not this guy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is what we said was gonna happen. And again

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Speaker 1: I think we're gonna be okay, but this is gonna

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Speaker 1: get real touch and go team, and like it's gonna

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Speaker 1: matter a lot that you call your congressman, that you

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Speaker 1: call your senators. There's gonna be a minute where people

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Speaker 1: are gonna have to march in the street like democracy

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Speaker 1: is saved by a game of inches and not sheet

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Speaker 1: And we need to all not be cynical here. And

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Speaker 1: it's tempting to be cynical. It's tempting to say, like

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Speaker 1: these people are corrupt and whatever, but like the truth is,

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Speaker 1: our democratic institutions have held and they will continue to

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Speaker 1: hold if we are committed to helping hold them. And

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Speaker 1: so this is all very scary, but like everybody needs

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Speaker 1: to take a deep breath and realize, like it's scary,

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Speaker 1: but it's not going to work. And these people are

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Speaker 1: thank god, very very very stupid. And so remember for season.

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Speaker 2: Reason landscaping, Yes, I sure do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's four seasons landscaping all the way down.

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Speaker 2: So this slush fund, Molly, it really is something. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're really pushing to defend it. We now see legislation

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Speaker 2: to try to stop it in Congress, but Trump is

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Speaker 2: still pushing the Republican representatives to defend it the.

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Speaker 1: Defensible Okay, so this slush fund is like the East Wing, like,

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Speaker 1: this is something where first of all, it's not legal.

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Speaker 1: So like when this gets kicked up to the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: even this Supreme Court is not going to be able

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Speaker 1: to sell it because the idea that you have a

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Speaker 1: slush fund for a billion plus dollar slush fund for

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Speaker 1: people who feel they've been wrongly proud, like, that's not

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Speaker 1: how it's going to work. And by the way, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this country, we have opportunities to get money back.

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Speaker 1: We have lawsuits, there is there are ways that people

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Speaker 1: can get for lack of a better word, they can

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Speaker 1: get reparations back for being hurt by things, not obviously

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Speaker 1: you know the ways in which we would like to

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Speaker 1: see reparations paid. But what we're seeing here is actually

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Speaker 1: really interesting because we have Todd Blanche auditioning to be

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Speaker 1: pay a bondy right. He wants to be the head

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Speaker 1: of the DOJ and I think that that's not going

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Speaker 1: to happen. And what we're watching is Todd Blanche is

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Speaker 1: getting crazier and crazier. And so I want to just

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Speaker 1: speak about the history of this. Donald Trump sued the

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Speaker 1: federal government, the irs, the government that he controls in

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Speaker 1: a way that no president ever has, for ten billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump was one of four hundred thousand tax returns

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Speaker 1: that were leaked. Okay, we saw many wealthy people who

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Speaker 1: were exposed and had their tax returns leaked. They actually

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Speaker 1: did settle with the government. We don't know what the

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Speaker 1: settlement meant, but there is a path to be made whole.

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Speaker 1: But four hundred thousand people, like there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who have this experience. This was not totally

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Speaker 1: just Donald Trump. Now that said, he then decided instead

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Speaker 1: of suing for ten billion dollars, which was never going

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Speaker 1: to work for him, he decided to make this slush fund.

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Speaker 1: But that's completely crazy. It's like saying I'm gonna instead

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Speaker 1: of painting my house, I'm going to build a shed.

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Speaker 1: Like it's just a relevant. It doesn't you know, he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have the power to do this. And like I

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Speaker 1: do think ultimately this will get knocked down, but well

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Speaker 1: it does, it's going to do a lot of damage

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Speaker 1: to Trump, It's going to do a lot of damage

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Speaker 1: to republic. It's very hard to sell. So what we're

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Speaker 1: seeing is that we are seeing elected Republicans turn on it,

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Speaker 1: and that means they know how badly it pols. Because remember,

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Speaker 1: these people are craven, so they won't stand up for

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Speaker 1: American democracy and they won't stand up for you, but

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Speaker 1: they will stand up for trying to get reelected. And

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Speaker 1: so here we have Republicans saying things like and I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to read you some of the quotes because

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Speaker 1: I think they're great. It's stupidity on stilts, says Tom Tillis,

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Speaker 1: who is not running for reelection. He calls it tyranny,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty insane, Like, you know, he's not running

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Speaker 1: for reelection, but still somebody described it as a galactic blunder,

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Speaker 1: says Ron Johnson from Wisconsin. This is Ron and on

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Speaker 1: and I think that's probably true. He told CNN. So,

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Speaker 1: and then Mitch McConnell, who is basically how we got

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Speaker 1: here and who stole two Supreme Court seats for Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: said so the nation top law enforcement official is asking

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Speaker 1: for a slush fund to pay people who assault cops,

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Speaker 1: said Mitch McConnell. Utterly stupid, morally wrong. Take your pick now.

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Speaker 1: I am no way endorsing any of these people, but

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Speaker 1: I am saying that for these people to say this

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Speaker 1: means they saw the polls and they know how bad

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Speaker 1: the polls, and so it's meaningful because it means that

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Speaker 1: either this thing takes down Republicans, which I think it

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Speaker 1: ultimately will, but it also creates a real fissure in

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Speaker 1: the party. And we have seen this before, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's meaningful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Molly, you may not remember this person, but

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Speaker 2: there was this guy, Jeffrey Epstein who's a bad pedophile,

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Speaker 2: bad bad. You may not approved of this, No, never,

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Speaker 2: We shockingly have some movement in getting justice for Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein's victims, as one of them has come forward and

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Speaker 2: testified to Congress this week.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to have a caveat here, which is

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Speaker 1: the people around Jeffrey Epstein are bad, and some of

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Speaker 1: them may be victims of his and some of them

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Speaker 1: may not be. And so we just always have to

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Speaker 1: be skeptical around Epstein's people. That said this is Epstein's assistant,

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Speaker 1: and she named three new abusers in her testimony. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, good on Robert Garcia for continuing to

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Speaker 1: do the House Oversight that is happening here. So James

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Speaker 1: Comer said that Sarah Callen's revelations were what we've been

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Speaker 1: waiting for. So let's see what that means. Comer is

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Speaker 1: a Republican. You'll remember, Jeffrey Epstein's former assistant has provided

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Speaker 1: the House Oversight Committee with the names of three new

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Speaker 1: co conspirators. She had a closed door hearing on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: She has been very helpful, according to Comer. And this

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Speaker 1: is Comer. Remember he has used this committee to subpoena

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Speaker 1: Hillary and Bill Clinton, but not Donald Trump, who is

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Speaker 1: numerous times in the Epstein files, has been a partisan

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Speaker 1: hack in many different ways, but he's also done some

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Speaker 1: good stuff. However, that lives together. Robert Garcia called me

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Speaker 1: because I'm really curious to know what the story there is.

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Speaker 1: So we'll see what happens with these three names. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: the women who were girls at the time they were abused,

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Speaker 1: or really children, have always said that the people who

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Speaker 1: worked around Epstein had a lot of information and they

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Speaker 1: didn't understand why they were never being interviewed. So this

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Speaker 1: is good, right to know, this is good. So we'll

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Speaker 1: see again. It's a tough situation. And so but Danny Benski,

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Speaker 1: who I really like Danny Benski. She's a survivor and

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Speaker 1: just very smart and talks to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: She said, when you're victimized and then you're put in

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Speaker 1: a position when you are manipulated to recruit, that's a

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Speaker 1: very sticky, complex situation. And she said people need to

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Speaker 1: understand what sex trafficking is and what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: It really is like a pure scheme, which is really true.

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Speaker 1: And look, I just want to point out there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in the Trump administration who are

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Speaker 1: in the files.

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Speaker 2: Some this is troublesome. The nation's largest public pension fund

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Speaker 2: is plagued by secrecy and underperformance. We're talking about California's

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Speaker 2: pension fund being poorly managed. Seems like that's gonna have

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Speaker 2: a lot of downstream effects.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to.

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Speaker 3: Talk about California because California is a big, big economy,

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Speaker 3: it's a big, big state, and it's a democratic run state,

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Speaker 3: and there are a lot of problems there and that's

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Speaker 3: why we're having some pretty fucking intense elections for both

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Speaker 3: the governor and the mayor of Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say a few things here that I

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Speaker 1: think may not be so popular, but I think they're

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Speaker 1: important to say. There's often a time where we see

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Speaker 1: Republicans sort of like get into masses, but sometimes we

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Speaker 1: see Democrats do that. And what's happened here is a

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Speaker 1: couple of things. One, let's just talk about the mayors

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Speaker 1: for a minute. The mayorship of Los Angeles is a

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Speaker 1: wildly unpowerful position because there is a layer of city

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Speaker 1: council that has a lot of power. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: not defending Karen Bass because I think Karen Bess being

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Speaker 1: on a trip during the worst fire ever was probably

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Speaker 1: a good reason for her to be having this problem

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Speaker 1: at this moment. Dad said, the way the mayorship works

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles is complicated. Even if they do somehow

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Speaker 1: elect a terrifying reality television host, I guess he's a

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Speaker 1: reality television star in this case who cannot manage his

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Speaker 1: own finances. I'm not convinced that that's going to solve

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles' problems, but I don't live there, so what

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Speaker 1: do I know when it comes to the governorship, there's

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Speaker 1: a really interesting dynamic happening. We have interviewed Styer, we

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Speaker 1: have to to some of the other candidates too. In

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Speaker 1: my mind, I try never to get involved in primers,

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Speaker 1: but it does strike me that Styers a lot cleaner

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Speaker 1: despite being a billionaire, than Bessarah, who is taking money

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Speaker 1: handover fist from people like Exxon and Meta. And in

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Speaker 1: a minute, when these people are really worried about regulation,

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Speaker 1: also be Sarah had all these people from the Biden

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Speaker 1: administration come out and say that Bisarah is incompetent. So

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Speaker 1: in my mind that would make me think that Tom

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Speaker 1: Styer is a better man for the moment. But again

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Speaker 1: I don't live there, so who knows. But all of

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Speaker 1: this happens because California is a huge state with a

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Speaker 1: lot of money, and then it has this fire problem,

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Speaker 1: and so it's just very tough. And when you have

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Speaker 1: a blue state with a blue city and just a

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Speaker 1: lot of Democrats, it's harder to have accountability than in

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Speaker 1: a state that's more split, and Democrats have to keep

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Speaker 1: themselves accountable. In this case, look, is the mayor of

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles responsible for the fires? Absolutely not. Is the

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Speaker 1: governor of California responsible for the fires?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 1: But are there things that people can do in order

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Speaker 1: to make the fires less toxic, to make them burn

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Speaker 1: for shorter periods of time? Like, clearly mistakes were made

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Speaker 1: here because people lost homes and everything. So I do

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Speaker 1: think it's just complicated, and the pension fund is a

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Speaker 1: really good example of the ways in which that just

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Speaker 1: because it's Democrats, there have to be checks and balances,

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Speaker 1: there has to be local news, there has to be

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Speaker 1: you know, there's corruption on Everyone needs accountability.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this echoes what happened with the money that they

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Speaker 2: put towards the homeless, and there was so much graft

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Speaker 2: there and they really got to get their house in

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Speaker 2: order with whoever's governor next.

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Speaker 1: Correct, Hey, it's Mollie john Fast here. My memoir How

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Speaker 1: to Lose Your Mother is out now on paperback, arriving

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Speaker 1: just ahead of Mother's Day. How to Lose Your Mother

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Speaker 1: has garnered a lot of praise from Good Morning America,

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Speaker 1: then Your Time, Book Review, Vogue, Vanity Fair, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of other outlets Washington Post. The book is about

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be part of the Sandwich generation

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Speaker 1: to take care of your mother and your children, and

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Speaker 1: I talk about being a mother and a daughter and

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Speaker 1: the relationship I have with my mother and all of

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Speaker 1: its complexities. It's funny and it's fraught.

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Speaker 5: And it's sad, and it's about life. My story, this story,

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Speaker 5: the story of How to Lose Your Mother, follows a

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Speaker 5: year in which my mother, Erica Johng, is diagnosed with dementia,

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Speaker 5: my husband faces a life threatening illness, and what unfolds

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Speaker 5: is a really honest or sorry about what happened when

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Speaker 5: the shit hits the fan and everything goes wrong. As

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Speaker 5: The Washington Post said, the book is filled with lines

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Speaker 5: so good you won't just want to underline them.

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Speaker 1: It's a memoir that continues to resonate, so please pick

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Speaker 1: it up. Meredith Shiner is a contributing editor of The

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Speaker 1: New Republic. Welcome, Welcome, Meredith, Molly, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm in a remote, remote location and celebrating the graduation

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Speaker 1: from an academic institution of one of my spawn, which

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Speaker 1: is the dream of all Jewish mothers. So I apologize

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Speaker 1: for any you know, turbulence. Look, I'm envious. I have

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Speaker 1: a five year old that in.

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Speaker 4: Thirteen years I don't even know the college will exist

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Speaker 4: for him. So if you should, I think you should

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Speaker 4: celebrate this from your joy bunker and we kid gossip

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Speaker 4: about politics and then you can go on to celebrate.

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Speaker 1: That's right, But let us talk first about the increase.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday was just a day of lows for our friends

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Speaker 1: in UH in the Congress, which included Mike Johnson and

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Speaker 1: John Thuon both just I think I see. I think

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Speaker 1: of this moment in Congress as John Fuon completely showing

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Speaker 1: that even he who has done this for a long time,

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Speaker 1: cannot control his caucus anymore.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it was funny yesterday I was texting

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Speaker 4: with one of my former colleagues who's now a Senate

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Speaker 4: reporter for Bloomberg, and he was like, you know, I'm

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Speaker 4: so busy today. It's so rare for the House and

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Speaker 4: Senate to implode at the same time. And I said, well,

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Speaker 4: it's hard. It's it's rare for them to be both

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Speaker 4: working at the same time. So let's set that foundation.

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Speaker 1: And the good news is they're not anymore because the

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Speaker 1: implosion meant they went home.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, it was a holiday, they got through their

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Speaker 4: they were early.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were a couple of fronts happening. Let's yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's break it down. But I think Donald Trump really

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Speaker 1: put them. He finally put them in a place where

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Speaker 1: they could not defend his ideas anymore. And I think

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Speaker 1: in my mind it was the seventeen seventy eight billion

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Speaker 1: dollar slush fund for people who've done crimes against United sixteen.

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Speaker 4: Seventy six, because the criminals are patriotic model, that's right,

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Speaker 4: seventy six.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about.

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Speaker 4: The too sort of simultaneous battles that were happening in

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Speaker 4: Congress yesterday, because I think they're really emblematic of where

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Speaker 4: everything has fallen apart and also where these vulnerabilities for

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Speaker 4: Republicans lie. So on the Senate side, you with the

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Speaker 4: Senate that was considering the budget, and the two biggest

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Speaker 4: points of contention were the seventeen seventy six fund, which

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Speaker 4: is this slush fund to try to pay out criminals

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Speaker 4: who were prosecuted rightfully for their behavior and their criminal

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Speaker 4: action on January sixth, twenty twenty one. And on the

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Speaker 4: House side, you would vote that fell apart on the

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Speaker 4: War Powers Resolution for the war in Iran. And historically

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Speaker 4: Congress has really shirked its responsibility to authorize war. This

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Speaker 4: is something that they're constitutionally obligated to do, but politically

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Speaker 4: very reticent to do so. If your listeners recall, so

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Speaker 4: many of the military engagements that we've had, even through

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Speaker 4: the Bush, Obama and first Trump years, were all conducted

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Speaker 4: under authorizations of military force that were passed in the

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Speaker 4: media years after nine to eleven and with the Iraq War,

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Speaker 4: because I think the lesson that Congress took from the

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Speaker 4: Iraq War was if we vote to support something and

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Speaker 4: it ultimately becomes unpopular, that is bad for us. And

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Speaker 4: they focused on that part of the question and not

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Speaker 4: what is our actual moral, ethical, and constitutional obligation to

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Speaker 4: this country and the world and it comes to war powers.

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Speaker 4: And so yesterday this was really interesting because you're seeing

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Speaker 4: this political misalignment with what's happening in Iran. Right, Democrats

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Speaker 4: really wanted to put Republicans with their backs against the

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Speaker 4: wall to vote in favor for something that's not only

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Speaker 4: unjust and wrong, but is also deeply politically unpopular. And

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Speaker 4: so the job of House Speaker is really singular in

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Speaker 4: a lot of ways, and it's making sure you have

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Speaker 4: the votes for something. So Mike Johnson is playing with

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Speaker 4: really slim margins, He's facing this incredibly political vote and

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Speaker 4: he had no idea how he was going to win it.

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Speaker 4: But he did the number one thing that a speaker

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Speaker 4: isn't supposed to do, which is he opened the vote

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Speaker 4: trying to see if he could. And so you had

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Speaker 4: this chaos on the House floor because this war is

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Speaker 4: deeply unpopular and no one really wants to own it.

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Speaker 4: And in this world where Donald Trump is calling all

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Speaker 4: the shots, where he's trying to force political loyalty and

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Speaker 4: fealty and public displays of it, and it butts up

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Speaker 4: against the mechanisms of Congress and the reality that all

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Speaker 4: of these people know that this is unpopular. This is

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Speaker 4: where you get absolute chaos and everyone throwing up their hands,

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Speaker 4: Mike Johnson pulling the vote and going home. And so

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Speaker 4: for this to happen simultaneously to what was happening in

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Speaker 4: the Senate, where Republican senators are like, well, this slush

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Speaker 4: fund is unpopular. We're not sure that we want to

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Speaker 4: fund this ballroom that you can't stop talking about but

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Speaker 4: said would be privately funded. They threw up their hands

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Speaker 4: and they went home.

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Speaker 1: Too correct. And I think what's important about this story

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Speaker 1: is Mike Johnson serves at the pleasure of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: He was put in there, he was like number seven

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Speaker 1: in leadership, put in there because Donald Trump could not

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Speaker 1: find a lackey that was lacky enough John.

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Speaker 4: Well, and wait, okay, So and I would say, like,

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Speaker 4: if you think about the trajectory of the House, like

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Speaker 4: since I don't know John Bayner and the ascension of

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Speaker 4: the Tea Party in twenty ten, like those people just

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Speaker 4: have such a strong history of eating their own and

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Speaker 4: so it's not just about like Trump and a lackey.

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Speaker 4: It is about like the complete evolution of the Republican

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Speaker 4: Party and that whoever has held that job has never

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Speaker 4: been able to prove themselves right wing enough, looney enough, whatever,

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Speaker 4: because there's no consistent ideal, ideology or mission. So I

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Speaker 4: think it becomes ideal for someone like Donald Trump, who

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Speaker 4: only wants someone who's loyal to them, because there's no

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Speaker 4: sort of theory of existence for House Republicans.

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Speaker 1: But Mike Johnson has had a couple of you know,

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Speaker 1: first of all, he can't whip votes, he has no

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Speaker 1: idea what he's doing. And then also what we've seen

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Speaker 1: and we saw this with the Epstein Transparency Act is

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Speaker 1: he's completely lost control. So now we're seeing discharge petitions

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Speaker 1: sail through something that had was so unusual nobody ever

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Speaker 1: thought it would work. And now we've had multiple discharge petitions,

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Speaker 1: including this War Powers Act, which was a discharge petition

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Speaker 1: because in a normal world, a Lackey Republican Speaker of

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Speaker 1: the House would never go along with this, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just completely unusual. So I do think, yeah, like, and

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Speaker 1: then the John Dune situation is interesting too. So one

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Speaker 1: of the things I would love to just read you

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Speaker 1: a minute of reporting. I'm sure you saw this from yesterday,

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Speaker 1: but from inside the Senate lunch, because I think it's

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Speaker 1: so you know, we often, you know, there's always like,

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Speaker 1: you know, will Republicans break with Trump? It's been a

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Speaker 1: decade and everyone thinks, you know, no, no, no. But

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Speaker 1: there are two things I think are really important about this,

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Speaker 1: about this lunch yesterday, because we saw you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about, right this Republican lunch. So we saw

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Speaker 1: a punch bowl, said text from a GOP senator. Right now,

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Speaker 1: our majority is melting down before our eyes. Many ours

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Speaker 1: believe Trump has brought this up on himself, creating free

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Speaker 1: agents out of a selfish desire to purge ours not

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Speaker 1: seen as loyal enough, Okay, and then I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to read one other thing. During a nearly two hour

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Speaker 1: meeting with Acting AG Todd Blanch and Senate Republicans, it

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Speaker 1: was incredibly hostile per multiple attendees. As many as twenty

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Speaker 1: five GOP senators spoke this is very rare for these meetings,

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Speaker 1: and all in opposition to the weaponization Fund, like twenty

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Speaker 1: five Republican senators themselves in opposition, not like I, this

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Speaker 1: does not please me. Ours pitch specific ideas such as

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Speaker 1: dictating how the five commissioners are chosen and not allowing people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just think, like, I just think that

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Speaker 1: this is and then I just want to read one

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Speaker 1: other thing. GOP senators tell me they have no official

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Speaker 1: guidance left, so Thune didn't even know how to deal

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Speaker 1: with it. And many of them believe they'll be sent

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Speaker 1: home for recess because of how much time it will

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Speaker 1: take to get the agreed upon language and having scrubbed.

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Speaker 1: And remember there's this larger issue, which is the parliamentarian.

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Speaker 1: We're on the heels of the parliament. Senate parliamentarian saying

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump cannot have a billion dollars for his ballroom,

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Speaker 1: and then Donald Trump going after the Senate parliamentarian because

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Speaker 1: of the ballroom, which to us just seems like typical

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, but the Senate Republicans is actually.

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Speaker 6: A really big deal.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So there's a lot to unpack here, And as

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Speaker 4: you and your listeners might know, I spent almost a

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Speaker 4: decade covering Congress with a focus on the Senate side.

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Speaker 4: So I'm going to try to not let my PTSD

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Speaker 4: of standing outside of launch and smelling fish constantly get

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Speaker 4: in the way of actually providing smart analysis here. There

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Speaker 4: are a few things that we should think about. One,

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Speaker 4: I think consistently, even since Trump won, Senate Republicans especially

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Speaker 4: have loved this particular out that you just read of

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Speaker 4: unnamed texting reporters. Everyone's so mad. No one wants to

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Speaker 4: put their name on it. No one wants to actually

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Speaker 4: speak it publicly. They want this impression that they are

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Speaker 4: serious and responsible and that people are mad. But we've

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Speaker 4: never seen results from that because no one actually wants

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Speaker 4: to do anything about it. So I want to set

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Speaker 4: that sort of baseline and expectation.

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Speaker 6: Two.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that went unmentioned here but I

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Speaker 4: think probably drove a lot of the drama this week

433
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 4: was the idea that Trump and his political operation really

434
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 4: dragged their feet in making a decision in the Texas

435
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 4: Senate Republican primary, and then ultimately this week opted against

436
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: endorsing John Cornyn, who's the incumbent, who's the incumbent, and

437
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 4: instead had to endorse Packson.

438
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: So I think that there's a lot of light and

439
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: anger there. And I just want to add one thing.

440
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: I think that's definitely right, and we saw these senators

441
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: come out of the meeting furious. But the other thing

442
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: is that the NRCC and Republicans have spent billions of

443
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: dollars on Cornin or not billions, but million ten I

444
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 1: think at least I think seven million, I mean some

445
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: crazy number.

446
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 4: Well, and you know, Corny's trajectory is so interesting. I'm

447
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 4: old enough to remember his two thousand and eight sent

448
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 4: a campaign where he literally didn't use the word Republican.

449
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: In his ad.

450
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 4: It was just big John because there was such a

451
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 4: Democratic wave. And then you know, he was the number

452
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 4: two Senate Republican for a while, the whip who's responsible

453
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 4: for counting votes, and then he stepped back from that position,

454
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 4: I think because there was a lot of political triangulation

455
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 4: with the right wing, fear of being primaried from the right,

456
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 4: and trying to figure out how to position himself in

457
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 4: a way where he could secure that Trump endorsement or

458
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 4: at least not lose favor with party Republicans.

459
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: But again, I think this speaks to the.

460
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 4: Exact same dynamic you were seeing in the House, which

461
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 4: is that nothing is ever enough.

462
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: There's no coherent strategy, there is no end.

463
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: There is just a constant, constant process of trying to

464
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 4: primary from the right, of trying to create some sort

465
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 4: of ideological purity with no consistent ideaology, and so you're

466
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 4: seeing debates on things that are facially ridiculous. Is seeing

467
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 4: absolutely no support from this administration, which again has no

468
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 4: sort of coherent line or regard for Congress. I mean,

469
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 4: I think that's the other thing that is unset and

470
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 4: unspoken in this conversation also is if we take the

471
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 4: totality of the second Trump term, one of the things

472
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 4: that we're seeing is that they've.

473
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: Absolutely neutered Congress.

474
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 4: You know, they were in my design, Yeah, they were

475
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 4: impounding appropriations. They were wholesale against our Constitution, shuddering agencies.

476
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 4: They acted that that was the project twenty twenty five.

477
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: That wasn't even that was the plan always, Yeah, that

478
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 4: was the plan. And they're doing it. And they've said Congress,

479
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 4: we don't need you. And for a really long time,

480
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: the Senate Republicans, these House Republicans, they were going along.

481
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 4: So they don't have a real purpose. The administration is

482
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 4: doing whatever it wants. The political operation that is attached

483
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 4: this administration doesn't care one way or another if they exist,

484
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 4: because they don't actually care about what Congress is or does,

485
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 4: and so in some ways it kind of renders I

486
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 4: don't know, I don't know what the right word is.

487
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 4: Like part of this conversation we're having about Congress imploding

488
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 4: yesterday is existential or even like nihilistic, because like, these

489
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 4: people don't want Congress to exist, they don't have a regard.

490
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 4: And now we're having this conversation about whether twenty five

491
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: people in a fish lunch feel respected by this administration

492
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 4: that clearly doesn't respect anything about our law, our government,

493
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 4: or them.

494
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: Except I would add that this is see I don't

495
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe I'm overly optimistic. I've gone through so

496
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: many you know, sort of like moments where I've tried

497
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: to figure out like when I've gotten things wrong, it's

498
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: tended to be that I've been overly optimistic. But my

499
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: sense is here that gas is five dollars a gallon.

500
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: We see this, We're seeing people get braver.

501
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 7: Now.

502
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: They're not getting braver because they're brave. They're getting braver

503
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: because they see the writing in the wall and all

504
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: members of Congress. Really there's a guy who is who's

505
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: very smart but problematic for any for reason, but he

506
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: says this thing that is members of Congress care about

507
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: really one thing, which is getting re elected and so

508
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: h which is honestly better than stop trading. But I mean,

509
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like.

510
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 4: There, look, these people can't chew gum and walk in

511
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 4: the same time. But if it's insider trading and caring

512
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 4: about their right, you.

513
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: Think they can do it? Yes, And yeah, I think

514
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: that that's right.

515
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 4: I think that they see that there is a lot

516
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 4: of political unpopularity for everything that.

517
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: Is happening right now.

518
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 4: But we also can't forget that there is this like

519
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 4: structural realignment that they have invested in through the courts

520
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 4: and our judiciary systry for decades, like we're having this

521
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 4: conversation after a few weeks after the Supreme Court ended

522
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 4: the Voting Rights Act in this country. Yes, and so

523
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 4: and so, all of these things are happening at once,

524
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 4: and we have to sort of connect the dots. And

525
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 4: so if they're scared about losing things at the same

526
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 4: time as they're rigging everything, I think that speaks to

527
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 4: just how bad.

528
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: They are doing.

529
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 4: And honestly, I think this connects to where we want

530
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 4: to take this conversation, giving listeners a little preview because

531
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 4: we ought to chat before we started recording, which is

532
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 4: what do democrats do in that vacuum? So they are warring,

533
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 4: they are panicked, they are failing by every objective measure,

534
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 4: They are scared, and we are in.

535
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: May right now.

536
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 4: November is going to be here before we know it,

537
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 4: not like I want to wish summer away.

538
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: And what does that look like?

539
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 4: What are the arguments that democrats are making knowing that

540
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 4: everyone is unhappy, and what are the things that they

541
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 4: are promising to do, knowing what we have all lived

542
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 4: through for the past eighteen or so months. And I

543
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 4: think there's just so much uncertainty right there. Is so

544
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 4: much fumbling around, even though I think some of these

545
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 4: answers should be clear. I think the path forward is

546
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 4: not complicated. I think it is simple, but I think

547
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 4: it's going to require courage of people who need to

548
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 4: exhibit courage because they're the people in power and actually

549
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: could influence where we go from here to wake up

550
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 4: to where we are and to feel like they can

551
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 4: actually be brave enough to outline what a way forward

552
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 4: is without having some team of consultants.

553
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 6: So this is life out of that future.

554
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: Yes, and we're getting to the DNC autopsy. I do

555
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: want to say, I still am you're a little bit nihilistic.

556
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: I appreciate you and love you, but your little nihilistic here,

557
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: and I actually ask I'm gonna put that on my

558
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: tomb sad now. And you're not wrong. But I also

559
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: do think like this sea change from the Senate, you

560
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: need twenty you know, like, if you think about it,

561
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: Donald Trump may very likely lose the House and he

562
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: very possibly could lose the Senate. So there's a world

563
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: where Donald Trump starts in January with a lost House

564
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: and a lost Senate and continuing to be as embolden

565
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: as ever, and so I just think it's worth looking

566
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: at that there's a possibility where he where he needs

567
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: this Susan Conin. Well, maybe Susan Collins isn't there, but

568
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: like he needs the John Tuons and the I mean,

569
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: that's just what I'm saying.

570
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 4: You said the word Susan Collins, and I had to

571
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 4: Rids yesterday. She wanted she was seeking written clarity about

572
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 4: the seventeen seventies sixth fund my Stars Susan klan.

573
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: Well, Susan Collins could very likely lose receipt. And also

574
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: now that jd Vance has gone to Maine with her,

575
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: forget it. But let's talk about the DNC audit.

576
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 4: So the d and before we had there, can I

577
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 4: say one one thing, And I actually do think that

578
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 4: this fits into where we're going in the conversation, because

579
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 4: I do want to defend my cynicism into where it

580
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 4: is contained. I'm very cynical about the United States Senate

581
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 4: ever actually operating in a way that represents and advances

582
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 4: democratic values.

583
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: But I don't want people.

584
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 4: To think that that is an argument against voting or organizing.

585
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 4: I think one of the joys of living outside of

586
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 4: DC and being in Chicago for the past year and

587
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 4: a half or so is.

588
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: To see how people don't.

589
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 4: Want what's happening right now, and they're so inspired to

590
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 4: stand up for their neighbors, to fight for our rights

591
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 4: that the people are okay. And that's what I see

592
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 4: on a regular basis, and that's what I'm inspired by.

593
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: No, we just have to build something new. And I

594
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: don't know what that looks like.

595
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't think it's going to be led

596
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 4: by the United States Senate anyway.

597
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's gonna be led by Ken Martin.

598
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: So Ken Martin, nice guy, terrible DNC chair. He has

599
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: a audit. He asks a friend, let's just set this

600
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: up for a minute. Isaac diverse, Isaac devorred, Isaac whatever

601
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: his name is from CNN, did a really good job.

602
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: Got a lot of information here, got the got it,

603
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 1: got the famous autopsy that Ken Martin did just absolutely

604
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: the worst job with. So we had a friend do

605
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: an audit. Then he decided. So first of all, he

606
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: had a friend do it. Number one, he didn't have

607
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: like some random person he didn't know come in, So

608
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: that's all number one. Number two. He then gets the audit,

609
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: decides not to release it all right, So what the

610
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: fuck is that? Okay, number three, it gets leaked and

611
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: in the audit it shows almost nothing, but we have

612
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 1: had it gets leaked months after there have been months

613
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: and months of news cycle about the audit and him

614
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: not releasing the audit, which have eclipsed anything that the

615
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: audit could possibly have said.

616
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 4: Okay, where I want to start actually is just what

617
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 4: is the DNC. And this is something I've thought about

618
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 4: a lot since being in Washington, right, because I spent

619
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 4: a lot of my years as a daily political reporter

620
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 4: in the aftermath of the Obama election. And so I

621
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 4: think there are two things that your listeners really need

622
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 4: to know. First and foremost was when Barack Obama was

623
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: elected president and ran his campaign, he built an entire

624
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 4: campaign infrastructure outside of the DNC because he wanted more

625
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 4: control of it, and it shifted the entire party dynamics

626
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 4: of how party control in the Democratic Party works. And

627
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 4: then the second thing that happened was in twenty ten,

628
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 4: when the Supreme Court decided Citizens United, it opened up

629
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 4: the door to unlimited money and so for the first

630
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 4: time in contemporary political history, the power of the DNC

631
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 4: didn't lie in its ability to financially support candidates or

632
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 4: party initiatives. And so to me, there's always been, at least,

633
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 4: you know, in the past twenty ish years, sort of

634
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 4: this existential crisis of what does a Democratic National Committee

635
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 4: actually do? And I think the thing that really is

636
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 4: challenging for current DNC leadership and this moment is that

637
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 4: I don't know that they know what they do. They

638
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 4: don't support down ballot candidates, like they just want to

639
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 4: play this role that they played in two thousand and four.

640
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: But we're living in twenty twenty six in a completely

641
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 4: different political world, with completely different considerations and with completely

642
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 4: different needs on what it looks like to rebuild the

643
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 4: Democratic Party. And I don't even want to go into

644
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 4: the debates that were happening in two thousand and four

645
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 4: about what the future of Democrats should look like because

646
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 4: that's as a geriatric millennial that is like a personal

647
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 4: point of privilege for me. But to go back to

648
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 4: where we are today, like this was such an example

649
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 4: of political incompetence and malpractice because I think ultimately through

650
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 4: this time, Democrats have been so embarrassed not just by

651
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 4: being beaten by Donald Trump once but twice, and this

652
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 4: second time was so bad because we knew exactly what

653
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 4: we were getting and they told us exactly what we

654
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 4: were going to do, and they still didn't know.

655
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: How to win.

656
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 4: And the way they lost was so catastrophic and they

657
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 4: were uninterested in real accountability for that, and so and

658
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 4: there's sorry, and I'm just gonna interrupt you a second.

659
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 4: There's some stuff just because we're short on time.

660
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff in there that shows money

661
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: was wasted and they didn't, you know, they did fundraising

662
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: for more fundraising. They didn't do the kind of stuff

663
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: that they should have done. They never dealt with the

664
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 1: She's for they them and he's for you ad, which

665
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: really did end up taking a lot of oxygen. There's

666
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: another thing, though, that is not you know, they absolutely

667
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: never talk about Gaza in this thing insane. They never

668
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: talk about not having a Muslim speaker. And that what

669
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: I think is so interesting about this is there is

670
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: a push in Democratic Party insiders always to alienate the

671
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: left side, of the left flank of the party, and

672
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: they do it because they think that the center is

673
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: more electable. And so you see a Kamala Harris campaigning

674
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: with a Liz Cheney versus a Kamala Harris campaigning with

675
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren, and Elizabeth Warren has many more of the

676
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: values that as a Democrat I would like to see

677
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: a president campaigning with then Liz Cheney, who may or

678
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: may not just be mad because Donald Trump asked her.

679
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: And so it was not good, but it did show

680
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: a few things that were It did show that the

681
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: campaign itself was just organized and did not focus on

682
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: the right things.

683
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because if that's what this, if that's what

684
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 4: they wanted to show, they can say this was like

685
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 4: a Kamala Harris problem or a Joe Biden problem. I

686
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 4: try to isolate it to a person that ever really

687
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 4: grapple with the systemic issues within the party in our country,

688
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 4: and I'm less concerned about words that they paid probably

689
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 4: too much money for a consultant for a friend, put together.

690
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 1: For a friend. But Mollie, you know in DC, it's

691
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: all friends, so they should get smarter friends. Yes, And I.

692
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 4: Don't know how if they all just spend the time

693
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 4: their time in the exact same bars every single day.

694
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 4: But one, I just want to go back to the

695
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 4: first thing you said, which is that like they try

696
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 4: to make it seem like they were covering up or

697
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 4: suppressing something.

698
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: They left that vacuum to be filled.

699
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 4: Like you mentioned, they don't talk about Israel Gaza like

700
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 4: that was what people thought was in there, right.

701
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 6: They thought that they.

702
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 4: Were going to be substantive policy notes about where the

703
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 4: party could go.

704
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 6: It wasn't.

705
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 4: So you left yourself vulnerable to all of these attacks

706
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 4: and questions where people got to fill in that blank space.

707
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 4: Then it said nothing and now what like, there's nothing

708
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 4: actionable on the report that you hid, you hit it,

709
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 4: you put out your weird notes app statement, and we

710
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 4: are only a few months from a midterm. What is

711
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 4: it that you would say your job is here?

712
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know. It's not my job.

713
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 4: I wish it were my job to figure it out,

714
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 4: but it's not.

715
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: And so I just don't know.

716
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 4: I don't know what the next day story from this is.

717
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 4: I don't know where the DNC goes to move forward.

718
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 4: But there is such a leadership vacuum at the top.

719
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 4: They think that you can divorce policy from quote unquote fighting.

720
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 4: But what I think that this document shows the process around.

721
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 4: This document shows that a fight when you are in politics,

722
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 4: looks like policy advocacy. It looks like outlining how you

723
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 4: might change people lives. It looks like outlining how you

724
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 4: will hold everyone who did the crimes and the malpractice

725
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 4: in this administration accountable because your lack of accountability that

726
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 4: you refuse to enforce on them in the I don't know,

727
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 4: attempts to do a unity or whatever it is that

728
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 4: you wanted to do in the Biden years left us

729
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 4: vulnerable to being here. And so if Democrats are able

730
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 4: to take back power, if they have a plan for it,

731
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 4: there has to be a plan to keep us from

732
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 4: being brought back to this place. And that wasn't a

733
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 4: thing that was in this document. It's not a thing

734
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 4: that's in the conversation now. But at the end of

735
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 4: the day, there is no country without that conversation. And Democrats,

736
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 4: regardless of their current incompetence, regardless.

737
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: Of whatever this debate is they want to have about.

738
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 4: If it's center or left, like they're the only ones

739
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 4: who care enough about having a country, I would say

740
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 4: to actually put forward a vision to get us there,

741
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 4: and needs to be pressure on those points, because if

742
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 4: we don't put pressure on those points, we're not going

743
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 4: to live in the country that is democratic and free

744
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 4: and welcoming in the way that I think we deserve.

745
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: Meredith, Meredith, I hope you'll come back, obviously, enjoy this weekend.

746
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.

747
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: Andrew Weissman is an ms NOW correspondent and the author

748
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: of Liar's Kingdom, How to Stop Trump's Deceit and Save America. Welcome, Welcome,

749
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: Andrew Weissman.

750
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 7: It is so nice to see you.

751
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: It is so nice to see you. I'm really delighted

752
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: to have you here. Let's talk about this book, Liar's

753
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: Kingdom tell us.

754
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 7: So, like a lot of people, I've noticed that there

755
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 7: are a lot of lies that are going around and

756
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 7: by our politicians, and I was just like, okay. One

757
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 7: of the things I think I say in the book

758
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 7: is like, we're a nation a wash in lies. And

759
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 7: you know, you can go to the Washington Post when

760
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 7: the Washing Post was the Washing Impossion Post, and they

761
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 7: were covering Trump one point zero and they counted up

762
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 7: thirty thousand lies, which they did the math for me,

763
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 7: which was over twenty per day. I have to say,

764
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 7: Sarah Longwell goes that seems a little low, but that's

765
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 7: sort of my point. So you're dealing with just an

766
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 7: enormous number of lies by politicians. That sort of thing one.

767
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 7: Thing two, which is not original to me and you

768
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 7: know very well, is the idea that the media environment

769
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 7: we're in is just not what it was in the

770
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 7: sense that we're in these bubbles. I mean, I could

771
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 7: go on and on and you don't have to get

772
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 7: to AI, you don't have to just focus on Fox News.

773
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 7: The old fashioned idea that we have a marketplace of

774
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 7: ideas and don't worry, everything will come out in the wash,

775
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 7: and that the best response to a lie is truth.

776
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 7: That was sort of said by Oliver Wendell Holmes Junior

777
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 7: in his very famous case the Turn of the century.

778
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 7: That is many people. I am not the first to

779
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 7: sort of point out that that has crumbled, nor is

780
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 7: it our response to many, many, many lies in other contexts.

781
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 7: And that's where I really started thinking about my life,

782
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 7: and I was thinking when I was a prosecutor, people

783
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 7: were prosecuted for lies all the time. I worked on

784
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 7: the Enron case. Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling, who were

785
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 7: the leaders of that, were charged with lying, and I

786
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 7: talk about that they were also civilly sued for lying.

787
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 7: So they're lying about the state of their company, and

788
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 7: there can be legal repercussions and serious ones moving forward

789
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 7: organized crime figures. I've prosecuted for lying. Roger Stone was

790
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 7: prosecuted for lying to Congress. Paul Mannifort was prosecuted for

791
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 7: lying to the Department of Justice and banks. In other words,

792
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 7: there's tons of ways that lies are held to account criminally.

793
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 7: And then again, as you know, even civilly, you have

794
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 7: defamation law, so that Rudy Giuliani was simply sued by

795
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 7: Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss for defaming them. As you know,

796
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 7: Egene Carroll one not one, but two lawsuits grounded in

797
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 7: large part on defamation. So I was just struck by Okay,

798
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 7: we have all of these legal remedies, but when it

799
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 7: comes to foundational lies by politicians about unlet's just take

800
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 7: the big lie that there was fraud material fraud in

801
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 7: the twenty twenty election. We do not, federally at least

802
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 7: have legal structures to deal with this. And probably because

803
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 7: I deal so much with the court system, I'm like,

804
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 7: that's a place where facts and law still matter, and

805
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 7: it is a place where juries assess the truth, the

806
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 7: judges assess the truth. And it's also one of the

807
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 7: few institutions that, at least at the district court level,

808
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 7: is looking pretty darn good right now compared to where

809
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 7: we are. So I just started thinking about what could

810
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 7: we do to deal with the problem of rampant political

811
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 7: lives using our legal system, and then started looking at

812
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 7: what our federal laws are, what our state laws are.

813
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 7: It was a little shocking to me to find out

814
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 7: that states in the United States actually do a lot

815
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 7: more than we do federally. And I started looking overseas

816
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 7: and picked certain countries as potential models so that people

817
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 7: could sort of open their aperture to think about this

818
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 7: in a sort of deeper way and to see other

819
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 7: possibilities as to how this could be done in successful

820
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 7: democracies across the globe.

821
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: This sounds like the kind of thing Jesse and I love,

822
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: like a prescriptive on how to solve how to get

823
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: us out of here.

824
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 7: I think that's true. You know. One of the things

825
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 7: I start it's a sort of very very personal book.

826
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 7: In the beginning, I talk about my mom, who is

827
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 7: a psychologist, and I don't tackle what is in of course,

828
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 7: a huge and important topic that a psychologist or a

829
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 7: political scientist would tackle, which is sort of like why

830
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 7: are we here, Like, you know, what is it about

831
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 7: human nature? What is the like? How has this happened?

832
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 7: How are people susceptible to this? That's also not my area.

833
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 7: I can't offer anything from an expertise point of view,

834
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 7: So I was thinking it very much as a sort

835
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 7: of like, here's a diagnosis, and in my world, the

836
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 7: sort of legal world, what could be done? And so

837
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 7: you know, the two of us are New Yorkers. Let

838
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 7: me just give you an example of what New York does,

839
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 7: which is just fascinating. And admittedly they have a little

840
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 7: bit more leeway to do some of the things because

841
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 7: of the New York Constitution that would not be possible

842
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 7: fatterally without a change in the constitution. So they have

843
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 7: two laws. One is, if you are convicted of a

844
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 7: felony and you have you're in public office, not just

845
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 7: elective office, public office, you are automatically automatically out because

846
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 7: the legislature determined that it is inconsistent with your oath

847
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 7: of office. The second thing is that if you are

848
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 7: found guilty of a series of specified crimes that relate

849
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 7: to bribery, fraud, things that they have determined are sufficiently egregious,

850
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 7: you are wait for it, permanently barred from holding public office.

851
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: Wow.

852
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 7: So that's the one where to do that. I in

853
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 7: my book deal with the First Amendment implications and talk

854
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 7: seriously about what their pros and cons here. This is

855
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 7: not one where my proposed solutions are all without costs.

856
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 7: But the idea of criminalizing is something that could be

857
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 7: done at the state level. At the federal level, the

858
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 7: idea of barring people for running from office is something

859
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 7: that states have a lot more leeway than the federal

860
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 7: government has without a constitutional amendment, because of our election

861
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 7: laws and the Constitution setting out what's been determined by

862
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court to be exclusive qualification criteria for Congress

863
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 7: and the president.

864
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm obsessed with is that, like,

865
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: it just feels that our government at the federal level,

866
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a function of Trump, but even before

867
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: that is unwilling or unable to legislate or regulate a

868
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: lot of the things of everyday life. Did you come

869
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: up against that regulation question?

870
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 7: And if so, how I don't write about the problem

871
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 7: of Congress, but I have talked about it a lot,

872
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 7: and my sort of elevators, stump speech on that sort

873
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,240
Speaker 7: of to tell you how I think about it is.

874
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 7: And this is going to sound nerdy, but hold on

875
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 7: because it really it's I think it's real well for me,

876
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 7: I find it really moving. In the early nineteen fifties,

877
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 7: Justice Robert Jackson and the Supreme Court penned a very

878
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 7: famous concurrence in a case called Youngstown. Robert Jackson, while

879
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 7: he was on the Supreme Court, took a leave of

880
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 7: absence at the request of President Truman to be the

881
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 7: lead American prosecutor in the first Nuremberg trials. That becomes relevant.

882
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 7: So now his concurrence in Youngstown. Youngstown was a case

883
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 7: where Truman had said, I need to take over the

884
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 7: steel mills because they cannot strike, because I need the

885
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 7: steal for our war effort. Not a bad argument, and

886
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 7: six to three the Supreme Court says, no, that is

887
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 7: a power that Congress has, not the president. And in

888
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 7: this really famous concurrence, Jackson talks about the growth of

889
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 7: executive power and how much that has grown and in

890
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 7: an unforeseen way from what the Framers envisaged. And he said,

891
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 7: you know what they put on in the Constitution, that's

892
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 7: on paper, but that is the paper construct but in

893
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 7: real life today, and this is in the nineteen fifties.

894
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 7: He talks about all of the ways that the president

895
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,720
Speaker 7: completely overshadows the other two branches of government in terms

896
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 7: of everyone's imagination, in terms of how they think about government,

897
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 7: and essentially that he is able to run roughshod that's

898
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 7: my word, not his, over the legislative. That's the nineteen fifties.

899
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 7: If anything that has only gone in one direction. To

900
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 7: be fair, that's true for republican and democratic administrations that

901
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 7: help the presidency. And one of the things that he

902
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 7: ends with is something that he said he has a

903
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 7: quote from Napoleon that I actually use in my book

904
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 7: where he says, you know, the ruling that from the

905
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 7: court is the president can't do this, only Congress can

906
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 7: do it. And he says Napoleon was said to have

907
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 7: coined the phrase the tool belongs to the man who

908
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 7: uses them. And he said, we can do this, We

909
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 7: can stand up as the court for the rights of

910
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 7: the legislature. But if you don't use it, it's all

911
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 7: for nought. And he said the beauty of the Constitution

912
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 7: was the idea that divided power is to secure our

913
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 7: liberty and so he was really it was a cree

914
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 7: occur about the legislative branch needing to rise the occasion,

915
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 7: you know, in the tariff decision, which also was six

916
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 7: to three, where the court also said the president doesn't

917
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 7: have this power, only Congress does. They harken back to

918
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 7: this famous concurrence. We're in, not just this, I think

919
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 7: the same situation. We're in that situation you know, many

920
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 7: times over.

921
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because it's like we're in this moment

922
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: now where Trump has all this stuff we talked about

923
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: on television that we're worried Trump would do. He has

924
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: done and probably more and is planning to do even more.

925
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: What is the thing that you think is sort of

926
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: the single most problematic for the law and the rule

927
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: of law and the sort of like you've worked inside this,

928
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: you know, the government, et cetera, FBI, Like when you

929
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,479
Speaker 1: watch this, what's the thing where you're like, I don't

930
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: know that we can put the genie back in the

931
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 1: bottle here or what gives you hope?

932
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, So you know, this reminds me when I worked

933
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 7: on the end Run case over twenty years ago and

934
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 7: our team and I was not the only one who

935
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 7: thought about this and thought this. There will always be

936
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 7: bad actors. Companies are just like the rest of the world.

937
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 7: There'll be people who are terrific and wonder fall and honorable,

938
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 7: but they're like anywhere, there will be bad actors. There

939
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 7: will be a Ken Leay. Again, that's not the story.

940
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 7: The story is how the person's not caught and how

941
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 7: they get away with it. And the thing that you

942
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 7: look at for that is the number of people who

943
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 7: were complicit and go along, who know better. And to me,

944
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 7: this story is the Pam Bondies, the Todd Blanches, the

945
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 7: cash Betells, the people who are willing to not stand up.

946
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 7: I mean Attorney General Sessions, the first Attorney general for

947
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 7: Donald Trump. He was fired because he understood that the

948
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 7: Justice Department had to be independent in demits of deciding

949
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 7: who gets prosecuted who doesn't get prosecuted. That the Washington norm.

950
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 7: Though sorry, yes, the Washington norm post Watergate was so important.

951
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 7: I think what gives me hope is that we have

952
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 7: seen so many examples of integrity of people who are

953
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 7: unwilling to go forward. We have seen judges appointed by

954
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 7: Donald Trump in the first term who are adhering to

955
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 7: their oath. We're seeing FBI agents and analysts and staff

956
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 7: and prosecutors who are all doing that. And then also,

957
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 7: as you know, Molly, I teach. And one of the

958
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 7: really wonderful rejuvenating things been about teaching is you see smart, dedicated, thoughtful,

959
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 7: engaged people in their twenties or early thirties, and you think,

960
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 7: as much as sort of our generation, I feel like

961
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 7: we really screwed this up, Like how did we get here?

962
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 7: You feel like these people they're going to continue to

963
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 7: create the world that we want to live in.

964
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: You've been targeted by Trump multiple times in different iterations

965
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: of his frustration.

966
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 7: What is the like? So the latest, by the way,

967
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 7: the one that fits into the category of you know

968
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 7: I wrote about lies is I'm like writing this book.

969
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 7: I'm sitting there going through stuff, and I remember hearing

970
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 7: live his saying when he was trying to distract from

971
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 7: all the Epstein pressure. He goes, well, I'm I'm hearing

972
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 7: Weissman's all over those Epstein files. In case it needs

973
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 7: to be said, no, not true, one.

974
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: Of the very few people not in them. In fact.

975
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, So you I still remember the very very first

976
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 7: time that he mentioned me, which was also the first

977
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 7: time the present a president of the United States ever

978
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 7: like even knew I existed. And I have to tell you,

979
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 7: my very first reaction was, I'm sorry, doesn't he have

980
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 7: anything better to do? I mean, I mean the big ego.

981
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 7: It's not I mean it's not the.

982
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 1: Biggest, that big. I mean we're friends and it's not

983
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: really that big.

984
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 7: But okay, okay, but I mean a healthy ego. I

985
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 7: don't have an ego that's so big that I think

986
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 7: that the President of the United States doesn't have better

987
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 7: things to be thinking about than me. I was just like,

988
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 7: just think about if you had that job, just the

989
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 7: pressure you would feel in terms of your responsibility to

990
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,479
Speaker 7: the public. So of course it's like the very first time,

991
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 7: it's like very unnerving. But then in his case, you know,

992
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 7: there's your extremely good company that that you know happens.

993
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 7: You know, they're far more exalted people who had the

994
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 7: same thing happened.

995
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 1: Well, not far more, but equally exalted. Do you find like,

996
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: do you still get death threats? And also do you

997
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: like it strikes me I have this theory of the case,

998
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure it's right, but it seems to

999
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: me like Trump's crew is a little less involved in

1000
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: harassing us. Maybe I'm crazy. Does that sound crazy to you?

1001
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 7: I don't know. And on death threats, I don't go

1002
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 7: online too small look through that sort of stuff. And

1003
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 7: in terms of my daily life, like so when I'm

1004
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 7: in New York or when I'm traveling, you know, the people,

1005
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 7: the sort of what I experience.

1006
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty kind.

1007
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 7: Is absolutely like I think, except for one instance. It's

1008
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 7: it is completely friendly and adulatory, and you know, it's

1009
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 7: people who I think one of the reasons that people

1010
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 7: tune in to you and to me and to all

1011
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 7: sorts of people. The bulwark the podcast I do with

1012
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 7: Mary is they want to learn, but they also want

1013
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 7: to say, oh, I'm not alone, like I have these views.

1014
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 7: It's normal. You know, I'm not being gas lit. And

1015
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 7: so I'm sure you get the same thing when you

1016
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 7: walk around where people are so pre that we're voicing

1017
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 7: and actually we have the privilege to voice things so

1018
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 7: that people can have that feeling.

1019
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: We're going to get out of this thing.

1020
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 7: Well, you know that's why I'm going to ask you

1021
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 7: that I'm going to turn around, because you know, I

1022
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 7: am the lawyer. You are much more focused on sort

1023
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 7: of the politics of this, and I, as you know,

1024
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 7: I try and stay within my lane. I still maybe

1025
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 7: I am naive. Do I ever tell you? By the way,

1026
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 7: the very first time I was on air with Claire

1027
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 7: McCastle during the way a Door during a break, she

1028
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 7: turns to me and she just goes, oh, you're so naive.

1029
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: I don't know Congress, and I just was ring. I mean,

1030
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: I think that voters hate this stuff. It's it's poison,

1031
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 1: so like voters hate this and you know, Trump coming

1032
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 1: back from China with no deliverables to muse about the

1033
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: ballroom and write himself at one point five billion.

1034
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 7: Dollar check, isn't it unbelievable?

1035
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that strikes me as not a winner or for

1036
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: the midterms. But the answer is probably. I think we'll

1037
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: probably be okay.

1038
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, this is one of those things where

1039
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 7: you know, if somebody if I said to you, hey,

1040
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 7: if we take this plane to you know, Africa, is

1041
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 7: it going to be safe, and you gave me the

1042
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 7: answer probably, Yeah. I wouldn't get on the plane, but.

1043
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 1: You have to get on the plane.

1044
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 7: Meaning the consequences are so dire. But I also think

1045
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 7: that is why people have to stay engaged, and it's

1046
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 7: great that you know, you're doing this kind of podcast

1047
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 7: and getting information out there so that people can use

1048
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 7: it in voting and encouraging other people to vote, because

1049
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 7: that is really at the end of the day, that

1050
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 7: it's all that.

1051
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: Andrew Wiseman, I'm excited for you to come back to

1052
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:45,479
Speaker 1: New York.

1053
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 7: Can't wait to see you.

1054
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 1: Theo Baker is a George polk Bard winner and the

1055
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: author of How to Rule the World and Education Empower

1056
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: at Stanford University. Welcome, Welcome, Theo Baker.

1057
01:00:58,320 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.

1058
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: I'm talking to you at your dorm in Stanford.

1059
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, yeah, not maybe the most aesthetic background, but

1060
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 8: you know, we do.

1061
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: You love it. You're a writer and you're a journalist.

1062
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: You're here to talk about this book that you've just written,

1063
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: which has just come out, called How to Rule the

1064
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: World and Education and Power at Stanford University. But first

1065
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: you started by working at the newspaper, So talk us

1066
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: through what it was like working at the newspaper there

1067
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: and what you've discovered.

1068
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1069
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 8: So I'm a very accidental investigative journalist. You know, I

1070
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 8: showed up here thinking I was a coder. That was

1071
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 8: the thing that I had done, you know, my whole life.

1072
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 8: I had been dreaming of Stanford since I was seven

1073
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 8: years old, and you know, I was the kid who

1074
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 8: would build AI models, you know, from scratch in my

1075
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 8: bedroom in high school, and you know, maybe not very.

1076
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 6: Good ones, but certainly that's what I tried to do.

1077
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 8: And so I showed up here, and I very quickly

1078
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 8: discovered that there was this sort of insider world of Stanford,

1079
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 8: you know, for the very select few people who were

1080
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 8: identified as the next like trillion dollars startup founder. But

1081
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 8: at the same time, I then got dragged into the

1082
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 8: student newspaper. My grandfather had passed just two weeks before

1083
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 8: I started at Siffard, and he talked about his time

1084
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 8: on the college newspaper more than any one I've ever met.

1085
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 6: He never was a.

1086
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 8: Journalist himself, but he talked about the college paper incessantly,

1087
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 8: and so I joined, wanting to feel connected to him,

1088
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 8: and very quickly think spiraled from there, is this.

1089
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: The father of your father or mother?

1090
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 6: This is my maternal grandfather.

1091
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so your mother who ended up being a

1092
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: bureau chief and a very venerable DC editor before now

1093
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: writing for The New Yorker and your father, who also

1094
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: a huge reporting powerhouse.

1095
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 8: Yeah exactly, And so you know, I thought I was

1096
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 8: going to do everything in my power to resist you know,

1097
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 8: the family profession.

1098
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:42,919
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1099
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: I have some experience with this.

1100
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 6: Yeah exactly.

1101
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:47,479
Speaker 8: You know, like I was one of you know, half

1102
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 8: a dozen kids who used to get the intro sequence

1103
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 8: of computer science classes and jumped right to you know,

1104
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 8: the so called weader class that's supposed to separate out

1105
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 8: the true computer science kids from the wannabes. And I

1106
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 8: was here, and I thought that was what, you know,

1107
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 8: my life was going to be. You know, I joined

1108
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 8: the school hackthon, I started taing, of course, and at

1109
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 8: the same time, you know, I discovered that journalism was

1110
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 8: something that I did care a lot about. And you know,

1111
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 8: by the end of the year, by the end of

1112
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 8: my freshman year, that the president of Stanford had resigned

1113
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 8: because of my reporting and several papers have been withdrawn.

1114
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the president of Stanford resigning because

1115
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 1: of your reporting, because that was a pretty fucking big deal.

1116
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: So he stumbled on this. I mean, because I'm a

1117
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: never baby too, I know exactly how this happened, which

1118
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: is like you sniffed out a scandal and were like, oh,

1119
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: I know how to do this. You just reported out.

1120
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 6: I don't think I really knew how to do it, really.

1121
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like a normal eighteen year old

1122
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: sees this and is like, oh, there's nothing I can

1123
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: do about it. But you had seen that you can

1124
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 1: actually like report on a scandal. I mean, I feel

1125
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 1: like you don't believe you can do stuff like that,

1126
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: and if you have a parent who's done it, you've

1127
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 1: seen it firsthand.

1128
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 8: Well, certainly I had a big leg up in the

1129
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 8: sense that, you know, I grew up in a household

1130
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 8: where journalism was very valued, and you know, we were

1131
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 8: sort of I was just I was always told to

1132
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 8: ask questions, you know. That was that was the thing

1133
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,479
Speaker 8: that I was empowered to do. I had no real

1134
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 8: context for how to report on neuroscience and research misconduct,

1135
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 8: you know, and I certainly knew nobody out here, you know,

1136
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 8: who could help me with that.

1137
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 1: How did you stumble onto it?

1138
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, my first few stories at the Stanford Daily garnered

1139
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:24,479
Speaker 8: a sort of surprising amount of attention, and from that,

1140
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 8: you know, I was getting a lot of tips, and

1141
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 8: one of them pointed me to this website called pub Pier,

1142
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 8: where as sort of a pseudonymous forum where scientists dissect

1143
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 8: published research papers. And in twenty fifteen there were some comments,

1144
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 8: you know, so this was seven years before I arrived

1145
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 8: at Stanford. There were some comments pointing out places in

1146
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 8: images in papers at Mark tesi Levine had co authored

1147
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 8: that seemed to have been altered or spliced or duplicated

1148
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 8: in some way.

1149
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 7: You know.

1150
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 8: So Mark tes Levine was this this superstar neuroscientist. You know,

1151
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 8: he was the first in his family to go to college,

1152
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 8: He earned a Rhodes scholarship, created an entirely new field

1153
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 8: of research with his discovery of what he called the

1154
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 8: net trend in the nineteen nineties. Incredibly impressive researcher. Went

1155
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 8: on to a crew of vast wealth as a biotechnology

1156
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 8: executive chief scientific officer of genen Tech, the world's first

1157
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 8: biotech company.

1158
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 6: So he's this very impressive person. When I arrived at Stanford,

1159
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 6: he just sort of announced.

1160
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 8: Like one of his biggest new developments, the first new

1161
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 8: school at Stanford since nineteen forty eight, Door School Sustainability,

1162
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 8: announced with a billion dollar donation from the venture hotels

1163
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 8: dot Door.

1164
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, and.

1165
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 8: By the end of the year, you know, as a

1166
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 8: report for the first time in this book, he was

1167
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 8: ousted unanimously by his own board of trustees for his

1168
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 8: conduct relating to these allegations of research misconduct in labs

1169
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 8: that he had overseen at several different institutions.

1170
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: Wow, so then what happens next after that? It must

1171
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 1: have been really uncomfortable for you at Stanford, or was

1172
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:51,959
Speaker 1: it not? Yeah?

1173
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean it.

1174
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: Was because you had to live there.

1175
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 6: I mean it's not like I'm in the dorms. Yeah,

1176
01:05:58,880 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 6: you can see. Literally.

1177
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 8: I remember there were like a couple months into freshman year,

1178
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 8: like people coming up outside my dorm and like gawking

1179
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 8: at it and standing outside and being like, oh my god,

1180
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 8: it's da kid.

1181
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 6: I could I could hear them.

1182
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 8: You know, the doors are not very thick, so you know,

1183
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 8: you very quickly became a sort of zoo animal on campus,

1184
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 8: which is incredibly uncomfortable.

1185
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 7: You know.

1186
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 8: I never wanted to be in a contentious position, you know,

1187
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 8: with the president of the university. My job was to

1188
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 8: report the facts wherever they led, and if you know,

1189
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 8: they were there to exonerate him, I was more than

1190
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 8: happy to report that, you know, but he he hired

1191
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 8: Steve Neil, the che emeritus of Cooley, one of the

1192
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 8: biggest law firms out here. And Steve Neil was formerly

1193
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 8: the lead attorney for Charles Keating Junior, later an attorney

1194
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 8: for Elizabeth Holmes. And and this is the man that

1195
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:40,439
Speaker 8: Mark tesse Levine, the president of Stanford, hired to try

1196
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 8: to stop my reporting about him from coming out. You know,

1197
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 8: he would he would send these missives to the faculty,

1198
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 8: which of course included all of my professors too. Land

1199
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 8: basing my reporting is as breathtaking, the outrageous and replete

1200
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 8: with Falsehood's was my favorite of the quotes.

1201
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 6: And so, you know, it was, yes, obviously.

1202
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,400
Speaker 8: An incredibly uncomfortable position to be in, but you know,

1203
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 8: I realized very quickly that if I didn't do this work,

1204
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,919
Speaker 8: it wouldn't be it otherwise, you know. And that's that's

1205
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 8: the main problem out here in Silicon Valley is that

1206
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 8: these guardrails, accountability, transparency, these are very very hard fought things.

1207
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 1: Right after that happened, you started writing this book or

1208
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: how did that develop into the book?

1209
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, No, I began working on this book at the

1210
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 8: beginning of sophomore year. I spent sophomore year reporting it out.

1211
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 8: I did mooring two hundred and fifty interviews, you know,

1212
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 8: with everyone from I think I spoke to three Stanford

1213
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 8: presidents and three Stanford provosts, and you know, people like

1214
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 8: Sam Altman too. I then spent junior year writing It

1215
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,400
Speaker 8: took two quarters off and now here we are in

1216
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 8: senior year, which is kind of funny to think about.

1217
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 8: But yeah, no, the book takes place over the course

1218
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 8: of my freshman year, so I use that as a

1219
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 8: sort of narrative bookend. You know, it starts when I

1220
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 8: arrive at Stanford and it ends effectively with MARTESSI Levine leaving,

1221
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 8: but over the course of that year, you know, my

1222
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 8: hope is to really take you inside this institution and

1223
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 8: see this culture in which kids are a commodity, you know,

1224
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 8: that are sort of a prize possession right in the

1225
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 8: AI talent rush. You know, the earlier you get in

1226
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 8: on the grond on floor, the more you've made your career.

1227
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 8: You know, if you identify the seventeen year old who's

1228
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 8: going to make the next Google or Instagram or whatever, like,

1229
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 8: those are your billions too, And so these adults are

1230
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 8: constantly you know, these hangers on I call them, are

1231
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 8: constantly on campus, constantly courting these these select few teenagers

1232
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 8: and plying them with something called pre idea funding and

1233
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 8: yacht parties and so many other you know, sort of

1234
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 8: outrageous and ridiculous perks.

1235
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 1: So the goal here is to get these kids to

1236
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 1: drop out of school, right.

1237
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean for the most part.

1238
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 8: And look, I arrived right as a techie, and so

1239
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,719
Speaker 8: I very quickly saw what this looked like for myself.

1240
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 8: You know, I was three weeks into Stanford, I think

1241
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 8: it was when I ended up at a mansion party

1242
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 8: in the Hills, funded through a slush fund that funneled

1243
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 8: corporate cash into the pockets of teenagers. And you know,

1244
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 8: I learned how to play beer pong from a guy

1245
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,720
Speaker 8: in his corporate Patagonia, you know, which was branded with

1246
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 8: his company. And you know, it's what happens is I

1247
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 8: arrived with all of these brilliant, idealistic teens who were,

1248
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 8: like me, true believers in the power of technology. And

1249
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 8: you see how they're taught how to cut corners, to

1250
01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 8: see how to get ahead at any cost. And of course,

1251
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 8: the great example of that is what the title of

1252
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 8: this book is based on the secret class called How

1253
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 8: to Rule the World.

1254
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: Tell us about that Ciccu class.

1255
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 8: So how to Rule the World is sort of like

1256
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 8: a scull and bones for the aspiring tech elite. You know,

1257
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:17,839
Speaker 8: it used to be that even knowing that it existed

1258
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 8: was a status de fire among the most inside of

1259
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 8: the inside crowd. You're not allowed to talk about what happens.

1260
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 8: You're not allowed to talk about what you learn. For

1261
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 8: twelve students a year. It's this seminar taught by this

1262
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 8: Silicon Valley CEO who teaches these kids who aspire how

1263
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 8: to rule the world, you know, the secrets they need

1264
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 8: to learn in order to become the billionaires they aspire

1265
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 8: to be. And these kids have to go through this

1266
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 8: extraordinary cloak and dagger admissions process. You have to be

1267
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 8: tapped on the shoulder by someone already in the class

1268
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 8: to be worthy of an interview in which you know,

1269
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 8: this guy justin grills you you know about your life,

1270
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 8: your deepest, darkest secrets in order to figure out everything

1271
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 8: he needs to know about you. It's cloaked in this

1272
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 8: aura of mystique and exclusivity, and really it's a scheme

1273
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 8: or a scam.

1274
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 6: As some students called it.

1275
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,479
Speaker 8: To me, what it is is justin like all of

1276
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 8: these other hangers on, is trying to network with teams

1277
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 8: he thinks will be useful to him in the future,

1278
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:11,880
Speaker 8: and he's figured out a brilliant way to get them

1279
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 8: to come to him.

1280
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 6: Because these kids really do want to learn how to

1281
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 6: rule the world.

1282
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 8: And so I use that as the title of the

1283
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 8: book because I think it's just so illuminating as to

1284
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 8: how this entire system works.

1285
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,599
Speaker 1: It seems to me like there's a fair amount of

1286
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 1: scamming going on here certainly.

1287
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean this is a place where fraud really

1288
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 8: does run rampant to a certain degree, you.

1289
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 6: Know, and is not punished.

1290
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 5: You know.

1291
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 6: I remember these kids I met during freshman year.

1292
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 8: You know, they put out a paper claiming they had

1293
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 8: just developed this new great AI advancement. With this tiny model,

1294
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,719
Speaker 8: they could replicate the results of the biggest companies on Earth.

1295
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 8: It turned out that the paper was just stolen from

1296
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,640
Speaker 8: a Chinese model that had already been published. It was

1297
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,599
Speaker 8: completely plagiarized. And when this came out, they said, oh well,

1298
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:56,639
Speaker 8: we actually had nothing to do with the paper. These

1299
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 8: two Stanford students said the third author was the one

1300
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 8: who actually did all it.

1301
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 6: We just put our names on it to look good.

1302
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:03,760
Speaker 8: And then, of course, you know, one of them goes

1303
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 8: right to working at an AI startup where he's, you know,

1304
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 8: now the head of evaluations at this twenty billion dollar company.

1305
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,440
Speaker 6: You know, there's no punishment, of course for fraud or wrongdoing.

1306
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 6: Cut corners are just part and parcel of things, right.

1307
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 8: I remember during tree Hacks weekend, you know, we were

1308
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:21,040
Speaker 8: talking my colleague and I, my friend and I were

1309
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,759
Speaker 8: talking about all the things that were sort of mildly

1310
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 8: shady about the hackathon where you know, these these thousand

1311
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 8: dollar machines weren't getting returned to companies and whatnot, you know,

1312
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 8: and there was this black hole budget is what they

1313
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,640
Speaker 8: called it, where where things just sort of disappeared into it.

1314
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:36,680
Speaker 6: And my colleague said, oh, it's just.

1315
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 8: A little bit of fraud, And I think that sort

1316
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 8: of captures the whole ecosystem.

1317
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 6: You know, just a little bit of fraud is baked in.

1318
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 1: That's so crazy. So I'd love you to sort of

1319
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:50,599
Speaker 1: talk to us about like what you've learned from this world,

1320
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 1: because it does seem as if there's not a ton

1321
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:59,719
Speaker 1: of accountability. It continues to be highly desirable. The people

1322
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: who come out of it are the masters of the universe.

1323
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:06,599
Speaker 1: So I mean, give me some hope here or something

1324
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,000
Speaker 1: that isn't like I learned that being sketchy is okay.

1325
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:12,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, And look, this book is not meant to

1326
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 8: be a polemic, right there are things in here that

1327
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:17,760
Speaker 8: are very uncomfortable I think to look at. But I'm

1328
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 8: going to graduate from Stanford next month, right now, I'm

1329
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 8: going to be just as happy about it as anyone else.

1330
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 8: This is still an institution that produces so much promise

1331
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 8: and innovation. I think a great example of that is

1332
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 8: another thing I did freshman year. I joined this group

1333
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 8: of amateur car racers who call themselves the Stanford Highly

1334
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 8: Incompetent Team, and I think, you know, people could figure

1335
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,000
Speaker 8: out the acroative for themselves and it was awesome because

1336
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 8: you know, as one of the teammates joke to me,

1337
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 8: you know, a balloon would be above our budget. These

1338
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 8: kids built two, you know, amateur race cars in the

1339
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 8: lowest level of the underground garage at Stanford, completely unallowed

1340
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 8: by the way to compete in something called the twenty

1341
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 8: four Hours of Lemons. This is a play off of

1342
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 8: the twenty four Hours of Lama, this very famous race

1343
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:58,720
Speaker 8: series where the cars cost millions of dollars, but the

1344
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 8: twenty four Hours of Lemons the cars have to cost

1345
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 8: five hundred dollars. And it was just this great example

1346
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 8: of what kids who really build for the sake of

1347
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 8: it can look like. You know, what it means to

1348
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 8: be a scrappy, innovative genius who actually just wants to

1349
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,719
Speaker 8: make things because they want to make things. And Stanford

1350
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 8: built itself on this ethos of being an underdog, right,

1351
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 8: this is how Stanford ascended to the heights it has today.

1352
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:24,799
Speaker 8: It's not an underdog anymore, you know, it's an institution

1353
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:26,799
Speaker 8: with a budget higher than one hundred and sixteen countries.

1354
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 8: But there is still a little taste of that, you

1355
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 8: know in the Stanford highly incompetent team in places like that.

1356
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 8: That's what the Stanford of your looks like and what

1357
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 8: I really still do admire about parts of the school.

1358
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 1: Do you think that some of this conversation is that,

1359
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: like the whole idea of genius is a mistake.

1360
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 8: Well, I certainly think that the cult of exclusivity we've

1361
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 8: established around you know, these elite educational institutions is extraordinarily damaging.

1362
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 6: You know, I went to one of these pressure feeder

1363
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 6: high schools, Like.

1364
01:13:56,040 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 1: You don't get there unless you value this kind of gene.

1365
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 1: You know, there's a certain there's like a genius two

1366
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 1: prestige pipeline, and I just wonder if that is ultimately

1367
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: the original sin here.

1368
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 8: Look, schools like Stanford tell the people who get in

1369
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 8: that you are, you know, the greatest things in slice bread,

1370
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 8: that you are, you know, the most brilliant students in

1371
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,720
Speaker 8: the world is incredibly damaging to everyone, right both to

1372
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 8: the people who do get in and either have God

1373
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 8: complexes or inferiority complexes because how could you possibly stack up,

1374
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 8: or just don't really know how to actually evaluate themselves,

1375
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:32,360
Speaker 8: and obviously to the people who don't get in. You know,

1376
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 8: it's treated as some sort of value judgment on your worth,

1377
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 8: when in reality, an admissions reader, the average application read

1378
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 8: takes fourteen minutes. You know, how do you tell in

1379
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 8: fourteen minutes what someone's entire life is? You know, No,

1380
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:45,639
Speaker 8: it's it's ridiculous Stanford, and it's three out of every

1381
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:48,680
Speaker 8: one hundred people that apply, right, I grew up, you know,

1382
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:49,920
Speaker 8: as a kid in this world.

1383
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 6: Right, I went to one of those pressure feed or

1384
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 6: high schools.

1385
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 8: And you know, the last year, a kid, you know,

1386
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 8: on Ivy Day, which is the day when most of

1387
01:14:57,280 --> 01:14:59,440
Speaker 8: the prestigious schools released their admissions.

1388
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 6: You know, he he took his own life.

1389
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 8: Apparently someone else at the school tried to take their

1390
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 8: own life later that week. The idea that college is

1391
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 8: an arbiter of social status, and not only that, but

1392
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:11,839
Speaker 8: it confers upon you the status of genius, of special

1393
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 8: of wonder kin or whatnot is ridiculous, you know, because

1394
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,400
Speaker 8: people treat it as the end goal when really it's

1395
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:19,679
Speaker 8: just an opportunity that you either see or you don't.

1396
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: Fel Baker, thank you, thank you, thank you.

1397
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:24,679
Speaker 6: So much for having me. Oh, this is great.

1398
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 7: Moment.

1399
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,519
Speaker 1: Polutely Jesse Cannon my judge fast.

1400
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 2: So it is Memorial Day weekend. We want to put

1401
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 2: a smile on the listener's face. So what I have

1402
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 2: assembled here is some great news. Donald Trump breaks five

1403
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 2: unwanted pulling records within days, five polls that show that

1404
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 2: this is a historically unpopular precedent.

1405
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,759
Speaker 1: Disapproval hits record highs in both Fox News and Times

1406
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: Sienna Net approval drops to new lows among Republicans. Right,

1407
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:58,320
Speaker 1: what did we say about Donald Trump? He has this

1408
01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 1: intractable base. Wow, they're tracting. I don't know what to

1409
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 1: tell you. Republican dissatisfaction with Trump's handling of the economy

1410
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: reach is a new high in the ap Norax survey,

1411
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: Millennials give Trumps the weakest rating of his second term

1412
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 1: in a youg of economists pull and economic and inflation

1413
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:24,080
Speaker 1: ratings fall to new lows with widening negative scores. Again,

1414
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,679
Speaker 1: much of this can it comes from Donald Trump going

1415
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: to war in Iran for no reason, not selling it

1416
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 1: to the American people, and then having it just make

1417
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 1: gas dollar and change more expensive.

1418
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 2: Well, most of America's way more than a dollar. I'd

1419
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,040
Speaker 2: say that five dollars in most of America now for

1420
01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 2: this weekend, right.

1421
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:50,800
Speaker 1: And six dollars for diesel. And we're heading into the

1422
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:53,840
Speaker 1: summer when people drive and take trips. I had to

1423
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 1: buy some plane tickets yesterday, and I am a big

1424
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 1: Delta flyer, so I always fly Delta. And I looked

1425
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:04,720
Speaker 1: at the cost of the tickets and I was like,

1426
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:09,640
Speaker 1: holy moly. I was like, these tickets are like a

1427
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 1: couple hundred dollars more I.

1428
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 2: Have to fill up today. And I walk by the

1429
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 2: gas station every day and I can't believe what I'm

1430
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:16,639
Speaker 2: gonna have to do today.

1431
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, look, we're very lucky and fortunate people, and

1432
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:24,320
Speaker 1: we're not living paycheck to paycheck, and we're still feeling it,

1433
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,960
Speaker 1: which means that everybody is feeling it. And this was

1434
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 1: so easy to avoid. That's the thing is, Like everyone said,

1435
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 1: don't go to war with Iran, they will close the strads,

1436
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:38,680
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump went to war with Iran and they

1437
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 1: closed the streets. And so as Donald Trump builds his

1438
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 1: triumphal arch in Washington, d C. We have people can

1439
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:53,320
Speaker 1: afford to drive. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1440
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear

1441
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 1: the best minds and politics makes sense of all this chaos.

1442
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a

1443
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:11,360
Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.