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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most.

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Speaker 3: Compelling true crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic

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Speaker 3: techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones back again, Paul.

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Speaker 3: Here we are, Here, we are.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited to see you again to talk about

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Speaker 2: another great case. And you know what's wonderful about I

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Speaker 2: think this show is that you and I get to

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Speaker 2: know each other better. At the beginning, we get to

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Speaker 2: chit chat about lighter stuff, which I always appreciate.

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Speaker 1: I never chit chat about light stuff on my.

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Speaker 2: Anther two shows like Ever, there's very little light things

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Speaker 2: happening in wicked words or to fold were wicked.

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Speaker 1: So I'm happy to be able to do this on

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Speaker 1: Buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's what I'm all about, is to bring a

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Speaker 3: little bit of levity into the podcast. I'm probably the

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Speaker 3: opposite of that, right, I.

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Speaker 1: Think you have a lot more levity than people think.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I've wondered, because this is Halloween season,

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Speaker 2: I wondered what your stance was on the paranormal. Have

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Speaker 2: you ever had an accounter where you weren't you just

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Speaker 2: want or did you just have like a feeling. You've

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Speaker 2: been in so many houses and so many crime scenes,

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Speaker 2: did you ever just have that feeling like something else

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Speaker 2: was happening there that you couldn't explain?

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Speaker 3: You know, I can't say that I've had any like

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Speaker 3: paranormal experience. You know, I will say, like when I visit,

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Speaker 3: like for cold cases, when I visit a crime scene,

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Speaker 3: there's an energy present that I feel, and I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I mean, that just could just be me. You know,

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Speaker 3: that's just because I'm like, Okay, you know, now I'm

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Speaker 3: really engaged in the moment, but I'm also looking at

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Speaker 3: the environment where the victim was killed, envisioning where that

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Speaker 3: victim was, and then you know, I can even think.

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Speaker 3: I mean many examples, but one, you know, notable example

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Speaker 3: is in the Zodiac case with Blue Rock Springs, which

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Speaker 3: was the second case in the Zodiac case. You know,

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Speaker 3: I've been there many times now. It's there's a parking

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Speaker 3: lot where the victims were killed, but they're these huge trees,

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Speaker 3: and those trees most certainly were present at the time

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Speaker 3: of the homicide. And that's just something I go those

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Speaker 3: trees experience this case if they could only talk, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, And that's part of just when I get

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Speaker 3: into these environments, you know, that energy and everything else,

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Speaker 3: I can't attribute it to paranormal. There's a part of

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Speaker 3: me that wants to believe in the paranormal. And then

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Speaker 3: there's a part of me, the analytical, scientific side that's very,

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Speaker 3: very skeptical.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm exactly where you are. There's the journalist's side

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Speaker 2: of me that is so factually based. I'm a nonfiction author.

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Speaker 2: Nothing that I do or say is made up. Everything

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Speaker 2: is factual. But there's this other side of me who

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Speaker 2: I think because of my family and my family history

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Speaker 2: where I came from. My dad was a law professor

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Speaker 2: at the University of Texas, and my mother was a

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Speaker 2: clinical psychologist who was a true crime fan, and so

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Speaker 2: we often did talk just about death and where energy

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Speaker 2: goes and what is there, and so much of my

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Speaker 2: interest in true crime is rooted in. This is not

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Speaker 2: a ghost story, but it is a little something that

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Speaker 2: has just been.

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Speaker 1: Part of my background.

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Speaker 2: When my parents divorced and my dad got remarried, we

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Speaker 2: moved out to my stepmother's property, which is about an

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Speaker 2: hour outside of Austin, and we moved into this house.

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Speaker 2: And on the property it was about five hundred acres

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Speaker 2: and on the property there were.

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Speaker 1: Other houses there.

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Speaker 2: This was an old house built in eighteen ninety five,

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Speaker 2: and we called it the Big House, and it was,

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Speaker 2: you know, white columns and sprawling, several different levels and

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Speaker 2: just like a really incredible house with original woodplant floors.

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Speaker 2: But this house from eighteen ninety five belonged to the

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Speaker 2: county's very first corner who did what corners do in

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Speaker 2: what would become our dining room, to bodies, hundreds and

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Speaker 2: hundreds of bodies over the years in this one house

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Speaker 2: where I would sit and have Thanksgiving dinner every year.

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Speaker 2: And so from the beginning you have to think something's

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Speaker 2: happening in this house. I mean, you can't have that

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Speaker 2: many bodies in one place, in one house without there

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Speaker 2: being spirit around.

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Speaker 3: So this dining room was the former more that's what

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Speaker 3: you're telling me. Yep, Wow, Okay, isn't that amazing? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Did you see any spirits walking down the hallway?

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Speaker 1: No? I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Now listen, I heard a lot of things. And my

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Speaker 2: dad was very much like you. He was very you know, pragmatist,

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Speaker 2: and he was an attorney, and he was like, this

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Speaker 2: is albeous, don't My stepmother was always trying to scare me.

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Speaker 2: And we had one of those paintings, one of those

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Speaker 2: eighteenth century paintings where they're looking right at you, and

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Speaker 2: so because they're looking right at you, the eyes follow

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Speaker 2: you everywhere. That was in the dining room, which was

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Speaker 2: right next to my bedroom, and of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: my dad just sort of blew off all of it.

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Speaker 2: The floors creek, Well, we do have eight cats, which

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Speaker 2: is true. The windows crackle while they're really old windows.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's like what you say, there's just

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Speaker 2: that spirit there, and I just refuse to believe, even

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Speaker 2: though I feel like I am really really almost scientifically

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Speaker 2: geared TODs, thinking that if something's not there and I

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Speaker 2: can't see it, then it is not there. And boy,

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Speaker 2: I don't really feel like that, not in this house.

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Speaker 2: And it's the only time I've ever felt like that,

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Speaker 2: no matter where I've traveled, what kind of buildings I've been.

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Speaker 2: In this house that my dad lived in until he died,

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Speaker 2: I felt like there is just stuff all over the place,

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Speaker 2: none of it bad, but just there, just there.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guarantee there's stuff all over that dining room

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Speaker 3: I've I've been in my modern Morgues and I know

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Speaker 3: it ends up on the floor and modern Morgs. So

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Speaker 3: could you imagine the practices in the late eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 3: in terms of autopsies.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know all the body fluids.

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Speaker 3: And tissue and everything that ended up on that floor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that just and we did have all those cats. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you just ruined my ghost story, Paul by bringing in facts.

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Speaker 3: So all those eight cats were congregating in the dining

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Speaker 3: room and licking the you know, the floorboards.

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Speaker 2: Let's discuss Happy Halloween, everybody, Happy Halloween. Okay, Now in

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Speaker 2: the more serious things, more serious topics. I have been

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Speaker 2: waiting to bring you in on a case that people

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Speaker 2: think they know, but maybe we don't fully know all

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Speaker 2: of the information.

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Speaker 1: And even if you do know everything about this case.

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Speaker 2: You haven't heard Paul Holes talk about it, and that's

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Speaker 2: what we're here for. So just a disclaimer, this is

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Speaker 2: going to be a two part episode. There's way too

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Speaker 2: many details for us to go over, and I just

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Speaker 2: want to examine all of it. So let's get started

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Speaker 2: and let's go ahead and set the scene. So this

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Speaker 2: is a great time period for me. This is nineteen

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Speaker 2: ten and it takes place in London, but it's involving

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Speaker 2: at least one American and this is the story of

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Speaker 2: Holly Harvey Crippen, who is a doctor. And I had

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Speaker 2: known this story just bits and pieces of it, which

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Speaker 2: is probably poor wording on my part, but just bits

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Speaker 2: and pieces. I've known this story over the years, but

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Speaker 2: I never really dug into it.

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Speaker 1: I never read a whole lot about it.

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Speaker 2: And when I mentioned Crippen to you, I think your

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Speaker 2: ears perk up a little bit because you've read a

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Speaker 2: little tiny bit about him.

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Speaker 1: Also, is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? You know when I first started my assignment as

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Speaker 3: a deputy Shriff krim List the Crime Lab, that I

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Speaker 3: had this amazing library that had been built up by

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Speaker 3: the original founders of the lab, and they had some

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Speaker 3: amazing old texts, and one of the books did discuss

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Speaker 3: this Crippen case. Now, I read this back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety two ish. The name Crippen and the circumstances rang

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Speaker 3: a bell when you told me that's what we're going

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Speaker 3: to be talking about. But I do not remember the details.

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Speaker 3: So I'm very interested to see what memories I can

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Speaker 3: pull up based on what I read about this case.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of forensics, and there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of twists and turns with the Crippen case. And then

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Speaker 2: I was very surprised at the mystery behind it. And

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Speaker 2: I know you love a good mystery.

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Speaker 1: Just like I do.

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Speaker 2: So that's why I thought this would be a good

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Speaker 2: case for us to look at that people have heard

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Speaker 2: of but not analyzed by you just yet.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'll see what I can bring to the table.

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Speaker 2: So Crippen is a doctor, and already I think things

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Speaker 2: get a little complicated because as a doctor, he's trained

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Speaker 2: in multiple disciplines and he understands what anatomy first, maybe

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Speaker 2: some toxicology. He has gone through medical school in the

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Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds, so he would have known some of

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Speaker 2: this stuff. So already he's a suspicious guy, I'm assuming.

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Speaker 3: Well, somebody with medical training. Of course, when you start

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Speaker 3: talking about a homicide, what knowledge is that medical person

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Speaker 3: bringing to the table in order to commit the homicide?

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Speaker 3: You know, sometimes the commission of the crime is not

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Speaker 3: any different than what the average person does. But sometimes

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Speaker 3: they rely on their medical training in order to try

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Speaker 3: to get away with the crime. And that's what becomes important,

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Speaker 3: is okay, is their clues within the case that indicates

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Speaker 3: the person has specialized knowledge.

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Speaker 2: Well, and one thing that you know, I've read an

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Speaker 2: awful lot about with profiling is that idea that if

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Speaker 2: you are a baker, a cake baker, and you commit

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Speaker 2: a murder, just because you murder someone, does that mean

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Speaker 2: you stop having the instincts of a cake baker. So

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Speaker 2: maybe you're writing, you know, in one of my cases,

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Speaker 2: you're writing a ransom note with certain loops. It's ingrained

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Speaker 2: in you, right, So with this doctor, maybe it lets

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Speaker 2: doctors people who with medical training get away with stuff.

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Speaker 2: But also it might yield some clues if you someone

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Speaker 2: like you can look at a body and say, boy,

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Speaker 2: this does look like somebody who knew what they were

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Speaker 2: doing with some training.

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Speaker 3: A cake baker. So are they no. I mean, I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 3: so you've got a body and it has this person

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Speaker 3: taken frosting and written a ransom letter. Where is this

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Speaker 3: going with a cake baker?

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Speaker 1: I'll have Alexis remove that.

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Speaker 3: Well. I don't know if it necessarily needs to be taken.

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Speaker 3: I was just thinking, of course I went to the extreme.

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Speaker 3: All right, what is a cake baker you'll bring to

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Speaker 3: the table. But you are absolutely correct in that offenders

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Speaker 3: will commit crimes and rely upon their own skill sets

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Speaker 3: that they've developed, whether in their personal life or their

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Speaker 3: professional life, in order to assist them commit the crime.

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Speaker 3: That's how by evaluating the scene, what was done to

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Speaker 3: the victim, and the behaviors that the offender expresses, can

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Speaker 3: give insight as to who the offender is.

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Speaker 2: So what we know so far about said offender Harvey

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Speaker 2: Crippen is that he's been training as a doctor in

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Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: I would say training is a loose term.

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Speaker 2: I have done stories on many doctors who it was

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Speaker 2: really more of a mentorship. They would be under someone

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Speaker 2: he had experience in your nose and throat. It sounds

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Speaker 2: like also dentistry and homeopathic medicine, which was very, very

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Speaker 2: popular in the eighteen hundreds using herbs, and so he

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Speaker 2: had an array of skills that I'm sure all involved

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Speaker 2: being able to use instruments.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you might have to educate me on this. He's

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Speaker 3: an ear nosed throat guy. But in this day, medical

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Speaker 3: doctors first go through medical school before they specialized, so

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Speaker 3: they get a holistic approach to human anatomy, to physiology,

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Speaker 3: et cetera, before they specialized. Was that the same back then?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, in the late eighteen hundreds of medical school,

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Speaker 2: you would have had the full anatomy classes, so you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have specialized right immediately, So he would have understood

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Speaker 2: surgery and every aspect.

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Speaker 1: Of anatomy that he needed to.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: And also I think he took dentistry courses, if they

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Speaker 2: were organized courses, I'm sure that they went over a

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Speaker 2: lot of aspects of that also, so I think he

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Speaker 2: sounded actually well rounded.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So now we have the doctor who has a

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Speaker 3: broad skill set. And tell me more, I mean, is

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Speaker 3: he the suspect in this case? Are we thinking he's

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Speaker 3: the offender in the case?

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Speaker 2: We are he is the suspect in the case. And

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Speaker 2: that's what's interesting from the beginning is I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say suspect.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say offender. Okay, I'll explain that later.

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Speaker 3: Well, if I can put out my definition, because people

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Speaker 3: sometimes confuse the term suspect and sometimes are questioning why

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Speaker 3: I use the term offender when I talk and we

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Speaker 3: have a crime and we know that there is a

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Speaker 3: person that has committed the crime, but we don't know

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Speaker 3: who that person is. Okay, it's this unknown entity. Well,

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Speaker 3: I refer to that unknown entity as the offender, so

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Speaker 3: it's it's just there's this entity that has committed the crime, Okay.

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Speaker 3: A suspect in my world is somebody who has come

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Speaker 3: to the attention of authorities and there's something suspicious about them,

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Speaker 3: in which now authorities are taking a look at as

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Speaker 3: to whether or not they are the offender and can

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Speaker 3: they prove the case. And in unsolved cases, you know,

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Speaker 3: let's say it's a who done at homicide? I respond out,

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Speaker 3: and for weeks we have no idea who committed this crime.

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Speaker 3: We can have tens, if not hundreds of suspects. Just

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Speaker 3: because somebody is a name suspect doesn't mean they are

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Speaker 3: the offender. That just means authorities are going, oh, I

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Speaker 3: need to dig into this guy a little bit more.

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Speaker 3: So that's how I utilize those terms. And then, of

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Speaker 3: course you have individuals who are arrestees, individuals that are

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Speaker 3: now charged with a crime and their defendants, and so

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Speaker 3: it shows where they are at and the justice process.

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Speaker 3: But when we are talking about an unsolved case, I'm

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Speaker 3: either going to say it's an offender. Some people will

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Speaker 3: say perpetrator. I'm not into the well, it's a purp.

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Speaker 3: It's the purp. I don't like that term. I always

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Speaker 3: say offender. And then if I'm saying the suspect, I'm

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Speaker 3: not saying that's person I believe did it. I'm just saying, oh,

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Speaker 3: there's something about this person that I need to look at,

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Speaker 3: whether be forensically or investigatively, in order to see whether

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Speaker 3: or not they were the ones that committed the crime.

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Speaker 2: We're going to go with suspect in this case for

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Speaker 2: right now, and maybe suspect throughout the whole case.

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Speaker 1: We'll see, Oh wow, right, okay.

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Speaker 2: So we have Harvey Crippen, doctor Crippen, I'll just call

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Speaker 2: him doctor Crippen.

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Speaker 1: From now on.

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Speaker 2: And he's a little bit of a mystery in his twenties.

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Speaker 2: We know he's from Michigan, Cold Water, Michigan, and he

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Speaker 2: was in Detroit for a little bit, and he traveled

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Speaker 2: the country, which was very common in the eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 2: and actually common now. My niece is going to be

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Speaker 2: a traveling nurse and she's very excited about that. So

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Speaker 2: this was very much like that. He would go from

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Speaker 2: city to city wherever he was needed. I'm sure he

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Speaker 2: made a nice income doing that. He ends up meeting

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Speaker 2: a woman in the late eighteen eighties, meeting a woman

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Speaker 2: and marrying her, and her name was Charlotte Bell, and

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Speaker 2: they lived in Utah and they had a son together. Okay,

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Speaker 2: and she unexpectedly passed away in the early eighteen nineties.

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Speaker 2: And what's interesting about crippen And I'm not saying that suspicious,

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Speaker 2: although I'm suspicious of everything, but unexpectedly passed away.

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Speaker 1: Could be a multitude of things.

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Speaker 2: It just probably means not a prolonged illness, I'm assuming.

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Speaker 3: And we are talking about the eighteen hundreds. Yeah, this

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Speaker 3: was something that was relatively common. I mean today, you know,

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Speaker 3: of course, we have many things that cause sudden death,

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Speaker 3: But back then, with the limited medical interventions to prevent death.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that there is exponential increase in the number

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Speaker 3: of these sudden deaths. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so what's interesting is that Crippen, I don't have

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Speaker 2: a good sense of what his relationship with his first

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Speaker 2: wife was like. But this child, when she has the

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Speaker 2: child and then she dies, the child is young, quite young,

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Speaker 2: a toddler, and so he doctor Crippen sends the boy

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Speaker 2: to go live with his parents. He really just didn't

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Speaker 2: have much interaction with his son going forward. This is

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Speaker 2: not at all surprising to me. And this is in

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Speaker 2: almost every case that I've seen where the mother dies,

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Speaker 2: the child is sent to a family member. Of course,

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Speaker 2: where there's a mother, there, a maternal figure there. So

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Speaker 2: as terrible as it sounds now, just in context, it

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Speaker 2: just was so commonplace for a man to just if

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Speaker 2: he couldn't find a woman immediately to take over and

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Speaker 2: to marry, then the child would be sent off to

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Speaker 2: what he would consider to be an appropriate household.

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Speaker 1: In which to be raised.

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Speaker 3: Sure, and I can see that where if you have

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Speaker 3: somebody who's very whether it be a man or a woman,

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Speaker 3: you know that's very career centric and now loses a

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Speaker 3: partner that is the primary caregiver to that child. That

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Speaker 3: child is now going to be tough to be very

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Speaker 3: involved with if you're really focusing in on your profession,

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Speaker 3: and so you're looking for help. Obviously, Crippen is like, well,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I've got people over there that can

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Speaker 3: handle the kid. And doesn't sound like he was very

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Speaker 3: attached to the child.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think it sounds like it at all.

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Speaker 1: You're right.

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Speaker 2: So he has left his child, he's continuing to travel

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Speaker 2: and make money as a doctor, and less than two

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Speaker 2: years after Charlotte Belle died, Crippen marries another woman.

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Speaker 1: And she's seventeen. Her name is Coorra Turner.

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Speaker 2: Sounds very young to me, and it is very young,

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Speaker 2: but in the eighteen hundreds, this was not surprising at all.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't make it right. It just is a fact. He

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Speaker 1: married a seventeen year old girl.

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Speaker 2: And we aren't really sure where they met, but it

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Speaker 2: seems like it would have been in New York because

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Speaker 2: she was in that area and he was also in

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Speaker 2: that area. So here's where we start thinking about the relationships.

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Speaker 2: We haven't really been able to talk much about the

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Speaker 2: dynamics of relationships.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, just remind me at the time that he's

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Speaker 3: marrying the seventeen year old what was her name again?

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Speaker 2: Her name is Cora Turner and it looks like he's

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Speaker 2: about in his thirties, thirty two, thirty three and she's seventeen.

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Speaker 3: Okay. First name is Cora, Yes, Cora Turner. Okay, so

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Speaker 3: like my dog's name, Cora. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to say that, but yeah, it's like

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Speaker 1: your dog.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I was just making sure I was hearing it right.

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Speaker 2: Yet I don't want Cora the yellow lab mixed up

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Speaker 2: in all of this, so I did not want to

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Speaker 2: say Korra.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yes, Coorra Turner.

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Speaker 2: So seventeen, So there's fifteen years time in between the

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Speaker 2: two of them. And here's where, as I said before,

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Speaker 2: the dynamics of the relationship come in. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you believe in the opposites attract.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe we'll start with that.

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Speaker 2: Do you believe in opposites attract or do you believe

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Speaker 2: more so that opposites attract and it works out?

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Speaker 3: Oh geez, I would say if you in my personal experience, yes,

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Speaker 3: I can see sometimes opposites do attract just because that

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Speaker 3: person that you're interested in there's aspects that it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm unfamiliar with that, and that's enticing. Now the question

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Speaker 3: as to whether or not it's compatible in a longer

380
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Speaker 3: term relationship versus if you have greater commonalities, you know,

381
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Speaker 3: like in my experience with relationships, it seems like longevity

382
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Speaker 3: is going to be easier to obtain when there's some

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Speaker 3: commonalities where you can have you enjoy life together versus a.

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Speaker 1: Part I agree, I have that same experience.

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Speaker 2: Love to say opposites attract in my sense, but it

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Speaker 2: doesn't I work well with somebody.

387
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Speaker 1: Very similar to me. As egos centric as that sounds,

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Speaker 1: it's the truth.

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Speaker 2: So unfortunately for doctor Crippen and for his new wife,

390
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 2: they were very, very different. And I think not in

391
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Speaker 2: a productive, oh, let's learn from each other kind of way.

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Speaker 2: I think in a acrimonious, eventually kind of way. So

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Speaker 2: doctor Crippen, if you look at his photos, he seems

394
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Speaker 2: to be sort of meek, he's quiet, he's bespeckled, which

395
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Speaker 2: I love, and sort of unassuming, and he's short and slight.

396
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Speaker 2: And Cora is the total opposite his wife. She is

397
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Speaker 2: vivacious and energetic and lively and very bold and outspoken,

398
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Speaker 2: and so the dynamic that friends and family say they

399
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 2: witness is that he shrinks a little bit in her presence,

400
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: that he is a little overpowered with her, and really, really,

401
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: in the media once the story opens up, there are

402
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 2: a lot of accusations that she dominated him, and she

403
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 2: belittled him in public, all kinds of things that were

404
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: really pretty disparaging. But it really does sound like this

405
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 2: was a clash of personalities.

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Speaker 3: I'm actually surprised because here you have the elder in

407
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Speaker 3: the relationship who's a medical doctor, he's got success, he's

408
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 3: got life experience. Marrying somebody so young, I would almost

409
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 3: expect the opposite. He would dominate that relationship and she

410
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 3: would be subservient. But it sounds like her personality is

411
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 3: so strong yep, that she is one that is kind

412
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Speaker 3: of taking control. Yeah.

413
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Speaker 2: What's difficult about this is that, like in so many

414
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 2: of our cases that we deal with, when we come

415
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 2: down to needing data about the relationship just to understand

416
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 2: the dynamics, understand the motive, sometimes the only source you

417
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 2: have is the offender, the person, the killer, whoever did it.

418
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: So it's one sided, so we don't really know what Cora,

419
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: who we will talk about soon what her role is.

420
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Speaker 2: We don't know what Cora's interpretation of their relationship was.

421
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: We just know what some friends and family observed from

422
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 2: the outside, and it seemed like this was not going

423
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 2: to be a compatible relationship, which is dangerous.

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Speaker 3: That's also important information. Even though the victim, and I'm

425
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 3: assuming that's Coorra ends up being the victim in this case, right.

426
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Speaker 2: Yes, if you want me to spoil it, yes, I'm

427
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 2: just kidding.

428
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 3: Yes, But talking to family, friends, and particularly with Cora

429
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 3: would be who's her best girlfriend? This is acquiring victimology

430
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 3: and understanding who Cora was, and then also the relationship

431
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 3: with her husband. That is critical and in this day

432
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 3: and age, that's the type of information that should be

433
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 3: acquired very very early on in an investigation.

434
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Speaker 2: Well, and one other thing that just seems like makes

435
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 2: them incompatible is Coorra really wants to be a famous singer.

436
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 2: She's young and attracted and has this really kind of

437
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 2: electric personality, so she has aspirations of being on stage.

438
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 2: But often when we see later in the media when

439
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: people portray her talent, it is not talent that is

440
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 2: going to be welcomed in Hollywood or anywhere else. So

441
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: she is someone with big aspirations, and I'm not sure

442
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: that doctor Crippen would have been enough for her number

443
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: one and number two. I don't know he could have

444
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 2: offered the life that she really felt like she deserved,

445
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: and why would she not deserve it? I mean, why

446
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,479
Speaker 2: not go after your dreams? Even though this is nineteen

447
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: hundred England and New York.

448
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 3: Right. Well, he's a doctor, he has financial assets. I'm

449
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: assuming back then that doctors were also very well compensated. Yeah, okay,

450
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: so he has the financial assets to be able to

451
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 3: afford her a lifestyle and possibly the freedoms to pursue

452
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 3: her singing and or acting career. They don't have kids,

453
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 3: she's not staying at home, so she can pursue something

454
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 3: along those lines. He's not overbearing based on their dynamics. No,

455
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 3: But is he preventing her from pursuing her dreams?

456
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: Maybe it seems like he's trying to help her, is

457
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: my interpretation. In way, they talk a lot, and they

458
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 2: decide that they need to make a change, and they

459
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: move from America to England and they eventually rent a

460
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 2: home in London. I'm not sure whose idea this was

461
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: this is at nineteen hundred. But this is a big

462
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 2: change to go from America to England. This is sort

463
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 2: of the beginning of in London really where you could

464
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: see the abject poverty versus the wealth. And so he

465
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: rented a nice flat for her, and they went on

466
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: with their lives.

467
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 3: And when you say he rented a nice flat for her,

468
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 3: not a separate living quarter. But they are living together.

469
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 2: Living together, they're living as man and wife, okay. And

470
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: she pursues a singing career in London. But she becomes

471
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 2: a fixture on the social scene there, on the bohemian

472
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 2: scene in London, and she seems very happy. She like

473
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 2: to be a singer, but she starts trying to reimagine

474
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 2: herself and she takes the stage name called Belle Elmore,

475
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: which becomes important later on. And she just comes off

476
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: as a figure who is larger than life. He buys

477
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 2: her furs, and he buys her jewelry, and she is

478
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: really trying to get attention.

479
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying in a bad way.

480
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: I'm saying this is the fact of this woman's personality.

481
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: She's described in a really good book, The Trial of

482
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: Holly Harvey.

483
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: Crippen.

484
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 2: She's described in being good looking, with large, dark eyes,

485
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: raven black hair, always elaborately dressed, and in the brightest colors.

486
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: Her appearance was likened by one enthusiast to that of

487
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: a bird of paradise. I will never be described in

488
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: the oh come. She sounds like a hoot. She sounds

489
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 2: like a hoot to me. I mean, you know, she

490
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: sounds like somebody who's a lot of fun. I'm not

491
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: sure this would be somebody I would be married too, though.

492
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: It seems intimidating.

493
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: So she obviously is flourishing over there in London. Yes,

494
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 3: what about his medical career? Is this a step up

495
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: for him going over to London or is he sacrificing

496
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: aspects of his medical aspirations for her?

497
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: Well, I don't get the impression that this has hurt

498
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: his business.

499
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 3: There was not.

500
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: In my research.

501
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 2: I have not found that there are board certifications that

502
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: you have to pass in America. He could just transfer

503
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: his skills from anywhere. You see in the eighteen hundreds

504
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 2: and early nineteen hundreds, people move from country to country,

505
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: and it's just like if you have the skills and

506
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: people like you, you're going to make money.

507
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: Nobody's looking for your medical license.

508
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm assuming he did well well enough to

509
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: buy her furs and keep her in the lifestyle that

510
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 2: she wanted. So still, the marriage was tumultuous, and an

511
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: acquaintance of doctor Crippen said that he can pretty much

512
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: tolerate anything except if she cheated on him. He was

513
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: a very very jealous person, which I'm assuming is insecurity

514
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: more than anything else, and that's dangerous.

515
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. And when you say tumultuous relationship, was there any

516
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 3: reports that went past maybe verbal arguments, Was one or

517
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 3: the other physically abusive to the other one?

518
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: Not that I have her about now today we hear, Oh, yeah,

519
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: the police have been called there multiple times for domestic violence.

520
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: You know, they just didn't have those kind of records.

521
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: From all of the information we have, there didn't seem

522
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: to be an instance of violence between the two of them.

523
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: There just seemed to be this older man who was

524
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: very busy trying to keep his younger wife happy, and

525
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 2: he was losing his cool because he felt like she

526
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: was a flirting with other men. The friends said they

527
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 2: quarreled often because she was pretty inattractive and she had

528
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: a lot of male friends, and when he would take

529
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: her out, men would pay attention to her, of course,

530
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: because she was beautiful in the way she dressed and

531
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: just her energy, and they said that it just drove

532
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: him insane, that he was so upset over it, and

533
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: they would argue about it.

534
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: And the career that she's pursuing is you know, she's

535
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: going to get a lot of attention.

536
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: Flashy yep, yes, so you know already we're seeing this dynamic.

537
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 2: But something that's so interesting about it is he is

538
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: described as meek physically, meek as a personality, someone with

539
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: not a dynamic personality. So this is not who you

540
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: would look at and say this is a brute. This

541
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: is a guy she really needs to watch it. I mean,

542
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: this does not seem like already made killer to me

543
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: at all.

544
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: When we say meek. Now, I'm assuming we don't know

545
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: his physical specs, how tall, how heavy, anything like that.

546
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to show you a picture and it's an

547
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: unfortunate picture.

548
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: He is not big. He's considered pretty slight. And then

549
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: below I'm showing you is Cora. So really big difference

550
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: and actually it looks like maybe a size difference between them,

551
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: as in she might be larger than he is.

552
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 3: Okay, when I take a look at let's say two combatants,

553
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: size is part of it. Skills in terms of combat

554
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 3: are part of it, but also just their innate strength

555
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 3: has to be factored in. A smaller male that looks

556
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 3: very slight, and we see this in like the boxing

557
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 3: world or the mma world, but they are very very strong.

558
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 3: It's part of the male biology. And so that's where

559
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: it's It becomes tough to just kind of compare two

560
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 3: photographs and say, oh, she would dominate him in a

561
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 3: physical confrontation. I'd go hold on, I wouldn't necessarily say

562
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 3: that he may be a lot more physically capable than

563
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: that nerdish photo shows him to be.

564
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: I'm saying, I'm going to show you another photo of

565
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: him that puts him in perspective a little bit more.

566
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: But okay, First, I would also say we should never

567
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: underestimate adrenaline and sheer anger also when it comes to strength.

568
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: I mean, you hear all those stories about people being

569
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: able to lift cars off of other people when you're

570
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: angry or upset or highly motivated. I would never discount

571
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: anyone being able to really be physical against someone. So

572
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: Crippen and his insane jealousy. He accused Korra of having

573
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: multiple affairs, of which I think she denied. But all

574
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 2: of this leads up to his friends saying that he

575
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: was really getting to kind of a breaking point. He

576
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: said she was violent and was constantly threatening to leave him.

577
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: But one person's point of view, so this is not

578
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: a reliable source obviously.

579
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is all coming from Crippen's side, right right, Okay,

580
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 3: So if he is being suspected in a crime, of course,

581
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: he's trying to justify by how contankerous the relationship was,

582
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: how difficult she was. Excuses for any marital discontent was

583
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: based on her behaviors and not his.

584
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, her friends eventually did say yes,

585
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: she was unhappy with the marriage, she thought about leaving him,

586
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: that they did fight all the time. Now, doctor Crippen

587
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: seems like the man who has been harmed through this

588
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: whole thing. In the meantime, he has been having an

589
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: affair himself. He had a mistress named Ethel. Please anyone

590
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: who knows French, don't criticize me too hardly on this,

591
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: But Lenive, I believe Lenive, I'm just gonna call her

592
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: Ethel though, So he was having an affair. She was

593
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: a secretary for several years, and she has been described

594
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: more closely to Crippen, very reserved, really neat and quiet,

595
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: very similar to doctor Crippen. So now it sounds like

596
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: he's found someone who is a little bit more his speed,

597
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: someone who is a little bit more of his personality type.

598
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, as we talked about earlier, you know,

599
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: do opposites attract or He's found somebody who sounds more

600
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: similar to him, and he's maybe frustrated with Cora's acting

601
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 3: out and you know all her escapades, So he's now

602
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 3: finding solace with Ethyl.

603
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: So Ethyl, he's having an affair with Ethyl. We don't

604
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: know what Cora is doing.

605
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: There's rumors she's having an affairs, but we can't confirm that.

606
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: We just know that her friends say she knew about

607
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: his affair with Ethel, and Cora was very unhappy about that.

608
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: So now somebody has to make a decision. Are we

609
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: going to stay married? Are we going to divorce? Because

610
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: a decision is going to be made one way or

611
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: the other here pretty soon. So when people are going

612
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: through this, I'm assuming it's important to talk to friends

613
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: and family about what their thought process was leading up

614
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: to this. I never understand what pell just don't get

615
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: a divorce? Why don't you get a divorce? Why does

616
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: murder have to be into this? Has there been a

617
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: consistent answer that you have found about why people choose

618
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: murder over divorce.

619
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 1: Nope, he's shaking his head. The audience can't see he's

620
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: shaking your head.

621
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 3: I know I have not sitting here trying to make

622
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: all sorts of gestures passing it through the microphone. Now

623
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: you know, it all comes down to the circumstances. Is

624
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: their money involved? That's a primary thing. People will often

625
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 3: choose to kill versus split their assets with somebody that

626
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 3: they are outraged with, they're jealous about, they don't want

627
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: to see benefit from a divorce. There could be cultural

628
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: and or religious reasons, especially back during this time where

629
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: it may be a stigma to pursue a divorce. And again,

630
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: this is your wheelhouse more than mine. But I'm just

631
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: kind of extrapolating back having been born and raised Catholic,

632
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 3: that was one of those things where I am divorced,

633
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: but it was when I was going into it. Is

634
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 3: that going to be something that's accepted by my family,

635
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 3: by the church, et cetera. And ultimately there's the I

636
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 3: don't want that person to enjoy their life with somebody else. Yeah,

637
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 3: that's the sad aspect. And to be frank, it's men.

638
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: There are some women that resort to violence as a

639
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: result of jealousy, but men are the ones that predominated.

640
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 3: And it's such a sad and tragic aspect to these situations.

641
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 3: It's just like, yes, get a divorce, enjoy the rest

642
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 3: of your lives.

643
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it doesn't seem like divorce is in the

644
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: cards for this couple, and it seems like things are

645
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: going to be coming to a head one way or

646
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: the other really soon. So the night where this all

647
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: starts to unravel, it's a cold night in January in London.

648
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: I've been in January in London. It's very cold most

649
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 2: of the time. In nineteen ten, and quorra A is

650
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: hosting a dinner party in the Crippen's home, which again

651
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: tells you a little bit about their socioeconomic background.

652
00:34:58,760 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: They weren't a nice area.

653
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: She liked to entertain, she liked to be center of attention,

654
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: and I don't mean that in a negative way. I

655
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: mean that as someone who really enjoyed society and liked

656
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 2: being in London at the time. So Crippen and Cora

657
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: say good night to friends. We're going to assume that

658
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: Ethel is not there. Smartly, Cora says goodbye to her friends,

659
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: They kiss her goodbye, and then she's never seen again.

660
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: Really, she disappears after that.

661
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: So at a party, people are there, she says good night,

662
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: and that's the last her friends and family see of her.

663
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 3: Okay, so now she's missing. Yep. Are the attendees of

664
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 3: this party interviewed eventually?

665
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: Okay, not right now, because this was what was wonderful

666
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 2: about being a criminal in the eighteen hundreds. In the

667
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 2: early nineteen hundreds, everything was so painfully slow.

668
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: You'll appreciate this.

669
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: I'd interviewed a woman who's an expert on policing in

670
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds England, and she talked about how they had

671
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: a system where if the police had gotten a really

672
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 2: good description of a criminal, they would handwrite it and

673
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 2: literally it was like a relay race.

674
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: They would race it.

675
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: From one post to the next, like handing it over

676
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: because they didn't have any other options. Of course, there's

677
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: no phones and the telegraph had not been invented in

678
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: the early eighteen hundred, So this is a time where

679
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 2: you could simply say what Crippen said, which is, she

680
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: went back home to the US.

681
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: I haven't heard from her in a while.

682
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: If I don't hear from her soon, I'm just going

683
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: to assume that she got sick kind of like my

684
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: first wife did, kind of like a lot of people do,

685
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: and died there. But I might never know what happened

686
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: to her. And that's what he said to friends who

687
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: asked about her.

688
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and trying to verify whether or not

689
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 3: she actually left. Did she make it on a ship,

690
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: Did she actually make it to poor Yeah, it's so

691
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: different to then. I mean I could see where that

692
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 3: would if it occurs at all, It minimally would take

693
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: months to try to verify.

694
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: That, right, And she could have gone under an assumed name.

695
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: What if she left him, That's what he was insinuating.

696
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: She said she was going to leave me, she left,

697
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: she could have gotten fake identification. She didn't even need

698
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: an identification to travel. She could have gone back to

699
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: America and just vanished. And that is what happened with

700
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: a lot of people. So this was a very difficult

701
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: story to refute.

702
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 3: Like you said, well, this is again looking at the victimology.

703
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: Let's look at Kor. She likes the high life, she

704
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: likes the furs, she likes the jewelry, she likes the attention.

705
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: If she's picking up and leaving, I don't see her

706
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: as abandoning financial assets. So investigatively, it's now, okay, what

707
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 3: does she have access to after she leaves? Had she

708
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 3: set up other accounts? Did she have her own accounts

709
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 3: before this happened? Does she have assets back in the

710
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: United States that she could live off of? For me,

711
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 3: I'm now thinking, okay, if I can't physically and quickly

712
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 3: lay eyeballs on her, I'm now wanting to take a

713
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 3: look at at Okay, what are the clues about who

714
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: she is that I would be expecting her to leave

715
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 3: To tell me? Yes, she likely has left, and it's like, oh,

716
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 3: two months ago, took a block of money from a

717
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,760
Speaker 3: joint account to put in an individual account right now?

718
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 3: Has the means in order to continue living the lifestyle

719
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 3: that she wants.

720
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: If you worked in nineteen ten as an investigator, you

721
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: would be perpetually frustrated.

722
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: Women did not have bank accounts.

723
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: Most certainly were not did have bank accounts, and definitely

724
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: not joint bank accounts. I'm sure he gave her a

725
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: cash allowance. That's pretty much what always happened. She could

726
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: travel on cash. She didn't have checks. I'm sure in

727
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: her own name. It doesn't sound like she took things

728
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: with her like furs and jewelry necessarily. But if she

729
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: met the right people in America, people could set her

730
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 2: up and she could find work somewhere and again live

731
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: totally anonymously.

732
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: The issue is this Crippen.

733
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 2: She started raising suspicion because he moved Ethel into the

734
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 2: house about five to six weeks after people last saw

735
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 2: Coorra at that dinner party, and Ethel starts wearing her

736
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: furs and she wears Cora's jewelry, and of course this

737
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 2: ticks off all of the people in high society who

738
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: had become friends with Cora, and they start pressuring crippon

739
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: where is she? Where is she? And he just pleads ignorance.

740
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 2: I have no idea where she is. She wanted to

741
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: leave me, she probably left me, and that was it.

742
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: They go to the police and that's what kick starts this.

743
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: Okay, his mistress is now being afforded the very luxuries

744
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 3: that Kora was living off of and it's only six

745
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 3: weeks later. That's a quick grieving process.

746
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: Okay. So this is what it comes down to. Because

747
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: I talk about this all the time. I don't judge the.

748
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 2: Way people grieve just because people grieve differently. But they

749
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: sounded like this marriage was not such a great marriage

750
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: to begin with, and it sounded like it was running

751
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: its course already, and there was talk of leaving and

752
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 2: he was having an affair, and she might have been

753
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: having an affair, so maybe he just thought, thank God,

754
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: she's gone, good riddance.

755
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: I'm just saying Devil's advocate here.

756
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: For sure. You know, people do grieve differently. There's different timeframes.

757
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 3: But as an investigator, if you see something that's way

758
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 3: outside the norm, then it's a red flag. You have

759
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: to consider it. You have to look at it. It

760
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: may be innocent, but you have to look at it.

761
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I agree with that.

762
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: So there was a detective named Walter dou who worked

763
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: on the Jack the Ripper case. Jack the Ripper happened

764
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: just two decades in eighty eight, eighteen eighty eight, And

765
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: this is nineteen ten. So these same police officers who

766
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: work Jack the Ripper are getting involved with this case

767
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: because it was becoming big news. So Walter Due listened

768
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: to Crippen and cripp had said, you know, I have

769
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: no idea where she is at first, and then he said,

770
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 2: I think she's in America, And he said, I'm just embarrassed.

771
00:40:58,239 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk to her friends about the

772
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: fact that she left me. I think that's what happened.

773
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: And do really felt like Crippen, who had so many

774
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: insecurities to begin with, he thought that that made sense. Actually,

775
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: he said that Crippen was being distant and not forthcoming

776
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,479
Speaker 2: with information because he was embarrassed that his wife left

777
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: him and he didn't want everyone in the newspapers knowing

778
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: that he had had this woman leave him.

779
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: Right, But here's here's the conflict. Six weeks later, his

780
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 3: mistress moves in with him. Yeah, she's assuming the role

781
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 3: of Cora. If he's so embarrassed about having Korra left him,

782
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 3: you would think having a mistress move in that quickly

783
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: that would be embarrassing. Yet he's letting that happen. That's

784
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 3: where now I'm going, Okay, anytime there seems to be

785
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: conflict within the investigation. That's where attention needs to be

786
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 3: paid well.

787
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is that the investigators don't really get

788
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: involved until six months after Cora is last seen.

789
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: Six months and I think it must.

790
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: Have to do with his status as a doctor, which

791
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 2: I think held even more weight than it would today.

792
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: I think they just thought there's no way that this little,

793
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 2: meek doctor would have done anything violent to his wife.

794
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: Of course, she left him, and it wasn't until the

795
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: friends spent months pressuring them to go and interview him

796
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 2: that this happened.

797
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 3: Okay, so we're talking about six months, which is a

798
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 3: substantial period of time. Yeah, so what happens after six

799
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: months once the investigators start engaging into this case.

800
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: So Walter Du, here's all this information. He registers that

801
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: this guy is an embarrassed husband whose wife left him,

802
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 2: and then he just tried to move on quickly by

803
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: moving this mistress in. There seemed to be no reason

804
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: for him to have killed his wife. She's probably in America.

805
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: And Walter du bought it and he just said case closed,

806
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,959
Speaker 2: no big deal. The issue is this Walter Du went

807
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: back to go talk to Crippen the next day after

808
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: the center, So this is summertime London. Korra disappeared end

809
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: of January nineteen ten, so this is summertime London. He

810
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: goes back the next day, knocks on Crippen's door, expecting

811
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: to see Crippen or Ethel there in this house. And

812
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: they're gone. Everything's gone. Twenty four hours after he interviewed

813
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: Crippen about the disappearance of his wife. They have moved

814
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: out and they're.

815
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 3: Gone, and no idea where they've gone to.

816
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: No on the run.

817
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: But I want you to keep an open mind about

818
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: on the run, because not everything is as it seems

819
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 2: in this story. There are a lot of twistagers because

820
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: maybe doctor Crippen is saying, forget this. I don't want

821
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: to be talked to by a cop anymore. I don't

822
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,479
Speaker 2: want to be under scrutiny. I'm tired of courus friends

823
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 2: knocking on my door. I just want to clear out

824
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: of here and start my new life with this woman

825
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 2: who actually loves me. Maybe that is his thought process.

826
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: But do is now suspicious, just like you. I could

827
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: see the look on your face. You're now suspicious.

828
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 3: Well yeah, and so of course I'm wondering what dou

829
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: saw you at the house. I mean this a situation

830
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 3: to where all the furniture and all the possessions inside

831
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 3: the house were left, and you just have two people

832
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 3: that have absconded with their checkbooks and of course not

833
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: credit cards back in this timeframe. But did they just

834
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 3: kind of take off or did they back up a

835
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 3: moving vehicle and get this house cleared out of all

836
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 3: the items that have value.

837
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: The impression I got is that in order to live

838
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: in this house, you would need the things that they

839
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 2: took with them, so they cleared out the house as

840
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: much as they could. So this is somebody who's ready

841
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: to hit the road, either arguably to get away just

842
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: in general because something happened to his wife, or just

843
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: said forget this, I'm going back to America or somewhere

844
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: else and I'm done with this town.

845
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 3: It seems like this type of gathering up stuff out

846
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 3: of the house and everything that do is seeing is gone.

847
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: I mean, that's resource intensive. It's not like they could

848
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 3: just call up a company at ten pm at night

849
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 3: in London back in nineteen ten and say come over

850
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 3: here and I need to get stuff done. He must

851
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 3: have pre arranged something to be ready to go, and

852
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 3: then whatever that trip wire was, it may not necessarily

853
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 3: have been having a detective show up at the door,

854
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: but he ended up pre arranging resources in order to

855
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: be able to just get the hell out of Dodge,

856
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: and then when Detective Do showed up, that was the trigger.

857
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 3: That's the trip wire where resources come overnight, We're out

858
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: of here.

859
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 2: My impression of police officers detectives in the early nineteen hundreds,

860
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: particularly in a place like London, is they would have

861
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 2: given him notice. I don't think they would have gone

862
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: and knocked on the door sporadically, especially a doctor. This

863
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: is not something that's supposed to be suspicious right now,

864
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: he's just interviewing him.

865
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: That's the impression I got.

866
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 2: I think he would have known probably a few days

867
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 2: before that he was being initially questioned. He had this story,

868
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: and then that was it, and then the next day,

869
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: unexp efectively, the officer came back by and this is

870
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: what happens.

871
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

872
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: So I think he probably knew a couple days beforehand

873
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: that this was coming, that he was at least going

874
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: to get questioned.

875
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 3: And so maybe that notification, hey, we're going to come

876
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: question you about the disappearance of Cora. Is what triggers

877
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 3: him to put the resources in place that once he's

878
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: questioned and he's able to say denial, Cora's in the

879
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 3: United States, I don't know what happened. And then once

880
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 3: detective do leaves vote yep, the truck backs up to

881
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: the house and they're out of there. From my perspective,

882
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 3: this is a poor investigative strategy. Here, you have a

883
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: wife that has disappeared. Of course, the spouse is going

884
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: to be one of the primary individuals that you want

885
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 3: to get information out of and to send some sort

886
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 3: of notification. Oh, on this date, we're going to want

887
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 3: to interview you. Blah blah blah. You're not getting that

888
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 3: organic response that you get if you knock on the

889
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 3: door and say, hey, we want to talk to you today.

890
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: That's what investigators. They want to see how somebody responds

891
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 3: in that moment versus somebody like a doctor Crippen, who's

892
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: obviously intelligent, he's sophisticated, he's going to think about things.

893
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 3: He's going to be able to develop certain stories and

894
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 3: rehearse those stories in the forty eight hours after the notification,

895
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 3: and so you've lost that element of surprise to assess

896
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 3: an organic response to law enforcement knocking on your door.

897
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: I agree, and I'm just assuming that's what happened.

898
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 2: But regardless, Crippon and Ethel are gone, and now is

899
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: the opportunity for Scotland Yard to come in because this

900
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 2: is now an abandoned property, and they are now searching

901
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 2: the house because now they're wondering what's happened with Quora.

902
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 2: So now they are suspicious, and they start searching, and

903
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: after two or three days of searching, they find something

904
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: in the home seller.

905
00:47:58,560 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't all bad things.

906
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: They are happened in the cellar of a house, at

907
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 2: least in my experience. So they go into the house

908
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 2: and beneath the bricks is a mutilated corpse.

909
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's suspicious.

910
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: It is suspicious.

911
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: So this case, as you can tell, I'm not even

912
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: halfway through my research. So this has to be a

913
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: part two. So I hope you enjoy the story of

914
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 2: doctor Crippen because you're gonna hear it again next week.

915
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to talk about it again.

916
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we're gonna be talking about what ultimately happened,

917
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 3: because right now we've got a missing wife, We've got

918
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 3: the suspect husband and his mistress missing, and we have

919
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:41,720
Speaker 3: a corpse in the basement.

920
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's like a Saturday night for me. I

921
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 2: love hearing about all that stuff.

922
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 3: So get your popcorn ready, the popcorn YEP.

923
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: Okay, So I'll see you next week. This has been

924
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: an exactly right production for our sources and show notes

925
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 2: go to a exactly wrightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

926
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

927
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

928
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

929
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryvogel.

930
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

931
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

932
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

933
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: Buried Bones Pod.

934
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

935
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

936
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

937
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

938
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now.