1 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:12,439 Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and 2 00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,599 Speaker 1: we have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,439 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,799 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:25,439 Speaker 2: didn't remember. 8 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:28,079 Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so 9 00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to 10 00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439 Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping 11 00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most 12 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to 13 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:41,519 Speaker 1: gain value from them. 14 00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,199 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will 16 00:01:48,199 --> 00:01:49,239 Speaker 2: love just as much. 17 00:01:49,479 --> 00:01:52,679 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,159 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,159 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,559 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life, 21 00:02:03,759 --> 00:02:06,519 Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You 22 00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,759 Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website. 23 00:02:10,279 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers. 26 00:02:24,479 --> 00:02:27,039 Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should 27 00:02:27,079 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column 28 00:02:29,679 --> 00:02:30,439 Speaker 1: for The Atlantic. 29 00:02:30,559 --> 00:02:33,719 Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and 30 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:36,199 Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this 31 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:37,599 Speaker 3: is Deo Therapists. 32 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: This week, a woman faces her first holiday season after 33 00:02:41,439 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: a difficult divorce. 34 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 4: My dad would bring up. 35 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 5: He would think, like, then does he get me for 36 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 5: all the nights in Hanukah? My mom, Christmas is only 37 00:02:49,559 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 5: one night, so you know there was some of that fighting. 38 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:56,039 Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. 39 00:03:00,079 --> 00:03:03,839 Speaker 3: Deo Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute 40 00:03:03,879 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 3: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, 41 00:03:08,159 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 3: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental 42 00:03:11,559 --> 00:03:15,199 Speaker 3: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions 43 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 3: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, 44 00:03:18,559 --> 00:03:21,439 Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in powder 45 00:03:21,559 --> 00:03:23,479 Speaker 3: and full, and we may edit it for length, end 46 00:03:23,559 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 3: or clarity. Hi Laurie, Hey guy, So what do we 47 00:03:28,039 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 3: have today? 48 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:37,159 Speaker 1: Well, tis the season. Here's the letter, Dear therapists. I'm 49 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:39,919 Speaker 1: feeling a lot of anxiety with the holidays fast approaching. 50 00:03:40,359 --> 00:03:43,559 Speaker 1: I got divorced this year, and navigating being newly single 51 00:03:43,679 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 1: while facing the isolation of COVID has been difficult. I 52 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:48,919 Speaker 1: live across the country from my parents, and I am 53 00:03:48,919 --> 00:03:51,319 Speaker 1: struggling with the potential to have to spend the first 54 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:54,919 Speaker 1: holiday season post divorce without my wife and without my 55 00:03:54,999 --> 00:03:58,599 Speaker 1: family for the first time. To add some additional context, 56 00:03:58,679 --> 00:04:01,279 Speaker 1: my parents are also divorced and do not get along 57 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:03,599 Speaker 1: at all, do not talk, can't be in the same 58 00:04:03,679 --> 00:04:07,039 Speaker 1: room together. Going home has always been extremely stressful for me, 59 00:04:07,119 --> 00:04:09,639 Speaker 1: because even as an adult, I feel like I'm grown 60 00:04:09,679 --> 00:04:12,519 Speaker 1: back into the custody schedule of my childhood, where I'm 61 00:04:12,559 --> 00:04:14,999 Speaker 1: living out of a suitcase and constantly going back and 62 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:18,999 Speaker 1: forth between houses. The idea of managing the usual anxiety 63 00:04:19,039 --> 00:04:21,519 Speaker 1: I feel when going home for the holidays while also 64 00:04:21,599 --> 00:04:25,119 Speaker 1: navigating the risks of COVID has been somewhat overwhelming. Do 65 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: I not go home at all due to the risks 66 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,119 Speaker 1: of infecting them and leave my mom to be alone 67 00:04:29,159 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: during the holidays. If I go home, do I only 68 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: stay with one parent to reduce transmission risks when I 69 00:04:34,799 --> 00:04:37,439 Speaker 1: know doing so will upset the other if I don't 70 00:04:37,439 --> 00:04:39,959 Speaker 1: go home at all, how do I navigate being alone 71 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: for the first time since my divorce. The idea of 72 00:04:42,799 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 1: being by myself feels awful, especially as my now ex 73 00:04:45,879 --> 00:04:49,439 Speaker 1: wife has already moved on. The holidays have always caused 74 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: me stress given my family dynamics, but it being my 75 00:04:52,319 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: first season without my wife and being far away in 76 00:04:54,719 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 1: the middle of a pandemic has added some additional anxiety 77 00:04:57,719 --> 00:05:00,639 Speaker 1: to the situation. I would really appreciate your help on this, 78 00:05:01,079 --> 00:05:02,639 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Shannon. 79 00:05:04,519 --> 00:05:08,079 Speaker 3: One of the things that comes up every year around 80 00:05:08,079 --> 00:05:12,999 Speaker 3: the holidays is that people whose parents are divorced are 81 00:05:13,039 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 3: faced with who do they choose, who do they disappoint? 82 00:05:15,359 --> 00:05:17,399 Speaker 3: And if they're in a situation where they're married and 83 00:05:17,439 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 3: their spouse has parents so divorced and there are four 84 00:05:19,559 --> 00:05:23,079 Speaker 3: people to disappoint, potentially there is this tension that comes 85 00:05:23,119 --> 00:05:25,639 Speaker 3: around the holiday season for people when their parents are divorced, 86 00:05:25,639 --> 00:05:28,639 Speaker 3: which is just baked in unless they found an ongoing solution, 87 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 3: and it takes away from the anticipation and the enjoyment. 88 00:05:32,599 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 3: Almost every year. 89 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,199 Speaker 1: You're right, and it also brings up this memory of 90 00:05:39,439 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: having to deal with that tension as a child. A 91 00:05:42,599 --> 00:05:45,559 Speaker 1: lot of the time you feel as a child like 92 00:05:45,679 --> 00:05:47,999 Speaker 1: you're stuck in this place that some of your friends 93 00:05:48,039 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 1: don't have to deal with, where you know that you're 94 00:05:51,559 --> 00:05:53,879 Speaker 1: going to be splitting the holidays. It's not that much 95 00:05:53,959 --> 00:05:58,079 Speaker 1: fun because there's maybe tension between the parents. You're missing 96 00:05:58,159 --> 00:06:00,879 Speaker 1: the other parent. If you're a one parents, it just 97 00:06:00,919 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: feels different and it takes them getting used to and 98 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,199 Speaker 1: then when you have to face it as an adult, 99 00:06:06,239 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: sometimes it brings back a lot of those memories. 100 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:11,879 Speaker 3: That happens is that I always ask people what are 101 00:06:11,919 --> 00:06:16,239 Speaker 3: you anticipating? What's your expectation, And invariably what they anticipate 102 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:19,079 Speaker 3: or expect is three or four levels above what the 103 00:06:19,119 --> 00:06:20,959 Speaker 3: reality was for the past ten years. 104 00:06:21,119 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that's important for her 105 00:06:22,959 --> 00:06:26,239 Speaker 1: to realize is that even though she has a specific 106 00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:30,999 Speaker 1: experience of growing up in a divorced household, most people 107 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: experience stress during the holidays, even if they get along 108 00:06:34,679 --> 00:06:38,399 Speaker 1: with their families. We have this idea what the holidays 109 00:06:38,399 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: are supposed to be like. I think that most people 110 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:45,519 Speaker 1: imagine that everybody else is having this picture perfect holiday 111 00:06:45,559 --> 00:06:48,119 Speaker 1: season and they're not, And so I think it's really 112 00:06:48,119 --> 00:06:52,199 Speaker 1: helpful for people to understand the reality better so that 113 00:06:52,239 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: they can have a good time knowing that they aren't 114 00:06:55,199 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: having a vastly different experience from the rest of the world. 115 00:06:58,119 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's just tell people that the holiday season and 116 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:03,119 Speaker 3: especially the aftermath, this is the busiest time of the 117 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 3: year for US therapists. 118 00:07:05,479 --> 00:07:08,759 Speaker 4: That's right, for good reason exactly. 119 00:07:09,359 --> 00:07:14,279 Speaker 3: Let's talk to him. You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. 120 00:07:14,679 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 3: We'll be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb 121 00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 3: and I'm Guy Winch and this is Deo Therapist. 122 00:07:27,559 --> 00:07:30,519 Speaker 1: So, Hi, Shannon, Hi, thank you. 123 00:07:30,479 --> 00:07:31,359 Speaker 3: For coming on the show. 124 00:07:31,399 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 6: It's good to meet you, guys. Thank you so much 125 00:07:33,679 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 6: for having me. 126 00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 3: You're very welcome. So it's been a year for you. 127 00:07:37,319 --> 00:07:39,039 Speaker 3: It's been a year for everyone, but it's been a 128 00:07:39,079 --> 00:07:40,759 Speaker 3: year for you. Can you tell us a little bit 129 00:07:40,839 --> 00:07:43,439 Speaker 3: about the marriage and the divorce and how you are. 130 00:07:44,119 --> 00:07:48,919 Speaker 5: Yes, So, I got divorced almost exactly a year ago 131 00:07:48,999 --> 00:07:53,719 Speaker 5: at Christmas time last year, and we were married for 132 00:07:54,239 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 5: three years, together for seven and officially ended it a 133 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:02,519 Speaker 5: couple of months before the divorce was finalized. 134 00:08:02,839 --> 00:08:05,079 Speaker 3: Who's the one that initiated the separation? 135 00:08:06,199 --> 00:08:08,399 Speaker 6: I was the one that officially ended it. 136 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:11,279 Speaker 1: Can I ask how old you are? 137 00:08:11,559 --> 00:08:12,039 Speaker 4: Thirty two? 138 00:08:13,119 --> 00:08:16,879 Speaker 3: Okay, how are you In terms of the reconstruction, the 139 00:08:16,919 --> 00:08:18,719 Speaker 3: rebuilding pot that comes up. 140 00:08:18,599 --> 00:08:21,999 Speaker 5: To a divorce, It definitely feels like a rebuilding. I 141 00:08:22,039 --> 00:08:25,119 Speaker 5: am doing a lot better. I think it was like 142 00:08:25,239 --> 00:08:28,919 Speaker 5: a whirlwind for a really long time. It felt like 143 00:08:28,999 --> 00:08:33,039 Speaker 5: my world sort of just came crashing down in a way. Honestly, 144 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,639 Speaker 5: this year has been about like redefining myself, like trying 145 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,999 Speaker 5: to figure out who I am now outside of that relationship, 146 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:43,759 Speaker 5: and frankly who I was even prior to that relationship. 147 00:08:43,839 --> 00:08:46,159 Speaker 6: Just trying to find like a new semblance of me. 148 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,639 Speaker 5: And it's been a journey, I would say, honestly, both 149 00:08:51,039 --> 00:08:53,279 Speaker 5: a lot of real lows and then also some like 150 00:08:53,399 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 5: highs of kind of figuring out myself for the first time. 151 00:08:58,319 --> 00:09:01,399 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you talk about figuring yourself out, because 152 00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:04,759 Speaker 1: it sounds like you spent most of your twenties, which 153 00:09:04,799 --> 00:09:08,919 Speaker 1: are these really formative years, in this relationship, and so 154 00:09:09,719 --> 00:09:15,399 Speaker 1: now you have this both challenge and opportunity to do 155 00:09:15,479 --> 00:09:17,599 Speaker 1: some of the things in terms of the figuring out 156 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: that maybe you didn't do because you were in this relationship. 157 00:09:21,239 --> 00:09:24,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like. I mean, in retrospect, 158 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:28,119 Speaker 5: I can see how much I lost myself in the relationship, 159 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 5: but going into it really had no idea. A big 160 00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:35,159 Speaker 5: part of this journey has been about finding my own 161 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:38,159 Speaker 5: sense of self worth more than anything that I think 162 00:09:38,199 --> 00:09:41,879 Speaker 5: I lost, and frankly probably didn't have a lot of 163 00:09:41,919 --> 00:09:45,639 Speaker 5: going into things. 164 00:09:45,879 --> 00:09:49,159 Speaker 1: What is your relationship like now with your ex? How 165 00:09:49,199 --> 00:09:50,039 Speaker 1: did that parting go? 166 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 6: Not? Well? I don't speak to her at all. 167 00:09:53,999 --> 00:09:59,039 Speaker 5: About a month into our marriage, she told me that 168 00:09:59,119 --> 00:10:03,159 Speaker 5: she had never been happy in our relationship and that 169 00:10:03,319 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 5: the relationship had never met her needs, that it had 170 00:10:06,719 --> 00:10:11,399 Speaker 5: always been only about me, and that she had been 171 00:10:12,359 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 5: dissatisfied the whole time. 172 00:10:14,319 --> 00:10:18,239 Speaker 3: This was a month after the marriage. Yeah, that's okay, 173 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:19,399 Speaker 3: interesting choice of timing. 174 00:10:19,639 --> 00:10:21,159 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a shock. 175 00:10:22,439 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 5: I was really caught off guard and just really stunned 176 00:10:25,839 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 5: at what that all meant. 177 00:10:27,719 --> 00:10:30,879 Speaker 1: How did she explain the fact that you'd been together 178 00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:33,879 Speaker 1: for many, many years at that point and she never 179 00:10:33,919 --> 00:10:36,999 Speaker 1: shared this with you, decided to marry you, and then 180 00:10:36,999 --> 00:10:39,399 Speaker 1: a month after marrying you discloses this. 181 00:10:40,719 --> 00:10:43,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that was why it was so jarring, 182 00:10:43,719 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 5: was that there wasn't really like an explanation it was, well, 183 00:10:47,079 --> 00:10:52,039 Speaker 5: I guess the explanation was like, she was tired of 184 00:10:52,639 --> 00:10:58,359 Speaker 5: not putting her needs first and she should have done 185 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:02,119 Speaker 5: that before and didn't, and that now I need to 186 00:11:02,159 --> 00:11:04,039 Speaker 5: meet her needs and I need to prove to her 187 00:11:04,199 --> 00:11:06,239 Speaker 5: that I can, because she would say to me that 188 00:11:06,319 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 5: she doesn't think that I have the ability to her needs, 189 00:11:10,519 --> 00:11:12,999 Speaker 5: that I'm not capable of doing that. 190 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 6: I still struggle a lot with what that all meant, and. 191 00:11:20,239 --> 00:11:23,039 Speaker 5: I think I went into just overdrive mode of trying 192 00:11:23,079 --> 00:11:24,359 Speaker 5: to fix everything. 193 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 6: I begged her to go to couple's therapy right away. 194 00:11:27,799 --> 00:11:30,999 Speaker 5: She was in her own therapy and said she didn't 195 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:33,399 Speaker 5: want to do couples therapy. She wanted to focus on herself, 196 00:11:33,399 --> 00:11:35,279 Speaker 5: that that was what she needed. She needed me to 197 00:11:35,479 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 5: put that need first. 198 00:11:37,839 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 6: That first year after we got married was sort of 199 00:11:40,079 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 6: a like kind of spiral in a way of her 200 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,399 Speaker 6: revealing all of these ways that I make her unhappy 201 00:11:48,439 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 6: and me trying to fix it. 202 00:11:50,239 --> 00:11:52,279 Speaker 3: Can you give us an example of one of those things? 203 00:11:53,199 --> 00:11:56,279 Speaker 5: Our sex life was one example that she told me 204 00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 5: was all my fault. She told me she would never 205 00:11:59,239 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 5: initiate sex ever again, that I had to fix it. 206 00:12:02,959 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 4: But what was broken according to. 207 00:12:04,919 --> 00:12:07,799 Speaker 1: Her, how much we had sex was a big one. 208 00:12:08,199 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: So she felt like you would not initiate sex. The 209 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: burden was on her. 210 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 5: And so she said that I had to initiate. She 211 00:12:17,999 --> 00:12:19,119 Speaker 5: was never going to initiate again. 212 00:12:19,439 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 3: Was that the first time she voiced that concern to you. 213 00:12:22,119 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 5: We had had some arguments about that earlier on when 214 00:12:25,719 --> 00:12:26,399 Speaker 5: we were dating. 215 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:28,759 Speaker 6: I thought we had worked through a lot of that. 216 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,759 Speaker 5: She told me that she had tried to convince herself 217 00:12:32,759 --> 00:12:34,359 Speaker 5: that it was fine and that it wasn't. 218 00:12:35,319 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: Meaning you did listen to what she had said, and 219 00:12:39,119 --> 00:12:44,159 Speaker 1: you tried to initiate sex more, but it wasn't enough 220 00:12:44,319 --> 00:12:46,119 Speaker 1: right in her view, Okay. 221 00:12:46,239 --> 00:12:49,119 Speaker 6: And that's where the other part comes in. 222 00:12:49,839 --> 00:12:52,999 Speaker 5: She would say, like, I need to be shown that 223 00:12:53,039 --> 00:12:54,799 Speaker 5: you're able to put someone else's needs above your own, 224 00:12:54,799 --> 00:12:56,039 Speaker 5: because I don't think you can do that. 225 00:12:56,239 --> 00:12:59,039 Speaker 1: Can you give us maybe another example as well of 226 00:12:59,159 --> 00:12:59,999 Speaker 1: where she felt that. 227 00:13:00,359 --> 00:13:03,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, one of the their examples was like crying when 228 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:08,639 Speaker 5: we would have hard discussions. So I tend to be 229 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,919 Speaker 5: a more emotional person. She told me that like I 230 00:13:11,959 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 5: shouldn't cry when we talk because it makes her feel 231 00:13:15,439 --> 00:13:18,279 Speaker 5: like there's not room for her emotions. And so I 232 00:13:18,359 --> 00:13:20,359 Speaker 5: just have like memories of just like holding it together 233 00:13:20,479 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 5: or trying to like not be me. 234 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:27,119 Speaker 6: Sorry, here you. 235 00:13:27,119 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 3: Are allowed to cry. 236 00:13:31,999 --> 00:13:35,879 Speaker 5: I think I'm still working on not feeling like there's 237 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:37,919 Speaker 5: something wrong with me for having feelings. 238 00:13:38,999 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 3: Jan If I would have asked you two weeks after 239 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 3: the way I say, oh, any time before, Hey, what's 240 00:13:47,359 --> 00:13:50,999 Speaker 3: your assessment about how balanced this relationship is? How much 241 00:13:51,079 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 3: is it about you versus about her? What would your 242 00:13:53,879 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 3: assessment at that time have been, I. 243 00:13:57,879 --> 00:14:01,399 Speaker 5: Would have said that we are very different people, that 244 00:14:01,999 --> 00:14:03,399 Speaker 5: we have very different needs. 245 00:14:03,719 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 6: I would have said she met my needs. 246 00:14:05,999 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 5: She was there for me during like some of the 247 00:14:08,759 --> 00:14:11,879 Speaker 5: hardest times my life and supported me through them and. 248 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:14,119 Speaker 4: Made me laugh. 249 00:14:14,239 --> 00:14:19,079 Speaker 5: And I thought when we had had conversations before, like 250 00:14:19,239 --> 00:14:24,399 Speaker 5: all through dating and the engagement, and we would talk 251 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:27,439 Speaker 5: about our lives and like spending our lives together, she 252 00:14:29,199 --> 00:14:31,919 Speaker 5: would always tell me like how I made her the 253 00:14:31,959 --> 00:14:34,479 Speaker 5: happiest person. And I think what was so confusing was 254 00:14:35,839 --> 00:14:38,239 Speaker 5: she said how much she was glad that we were 255 00:14:38,239 --> 00:14:40,799 Speaker 5: so different in how we expressed ourselves that she was 256 00:14:40,839 --> 00:14:43,759 Speaker 5: happy that I was a more emotional person because she 257 00:14:43,839 --> 00:14:45,839 Speaker 5: wanted to be more in touch with her feelings, because 258 00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:48,159 Speaker 5: that was something she really struggled with and that she 259 00:14:49,039 --> 00:14:50,159 Speaker 5: wanted that in her life. 260 00:14:50,199 --> 00:14:52,359 Speaker 6: So I felt like a one eighty that came out 261 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:53,079 Speaker 6: of nowhere to me. 262 00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:55,839 Speaker 1: Do you know what her needs were that she felt 263 00:14:56,039 --> 00:14:58,239 Speaker 1: weren't getting that? You talked a little bit about sex, 264 00:14:58,519 --> 00:14:58,999 Speaker 1: what else. 265 00:15:00,679 --> 00:15:04,359 Speaker 6: She had a really tough upbringing. 266 00:15:04,679 --> 00:15:08,199 Speaker 5: She had a mom who was undiagnosed bipolar at the 267 00:15:08,239 --> 00:15:13,639 Speaker 5: time and abusive basically, and had always been on her own, 268 00:15:13,839 --> 00:15:16,399 Speaker 5: like from the time she was really little. She basically 269 00:15:16,439 --> 00:15:19,119 Speaker 5: was abandoned as a kid, and her dad died when 270 00:15:19,119 --> 00:15:20,839 Speaker 5: she was fifteen, and so there was a lot of 271 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:25,959 Speaker 5: trauma that she had faced and she needed a safe place. 272 00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:28,239 Speaker 5: We had always talked about wanting our home to be 273 00:15:28,319 --> 00:15:33,599 Speaker 5: a safe place for us to have joy and to 274 00:15:33,639 --> 00:15:36,279 Speaker 5: have family game nights. We had been in the process 275 00:15:36,279 --> 00:15:39,879 Speaker 5: of having kids. We had bought sperm from a sperm bank, like, 276 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,159 Speaker 5: we had done all that and had talked about how 277 00:15:43,239 --> 00:15:47,999 Speaker 5: for her she needed and wanted this life. 278 00:15:48,719 --> 00:15:52,399 Speaker 1: You talked about having kids after she had said to 279 00:15:52,399 --> 00:15:55,479 Speaker 1: you that her needs were not getting met a month 280 00:15:55,519 --> 00:15:57,959 Speaker 1: after the wedding, or this was before you got married. 281 00:15:57,999 --> 00:15:59,799 Speaker 1: You talked about having kids, and then that was off 282 00:15:59,839 --> 00:16:03,039 Speaker 1: the table once you got married and this revelation came out. 283 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:08,159 Speaker 5: We talked about having kids from like month one of dating. 284 00:16:08,359 --> 00:16:10,839 Speaker 5: We had our kids names picked out. It was always 285 00:16:10,879 --> 00:16:13,719 Speaker 5: the plan while we were engaged. Was when we bought 286 00:16:13,719 --> 00:16:16,879 Speaker 5: the sperm, and the plan was basically to start trying 287 00:16:16,999 --> 00:16:20,159 Speaker 5: right after we got married. We had our fertility doctor 288 00:16:20,199 --> 00:16:22,959 Speaker 5: and she was going to carry, and we went to 289 00:16:22,959 --> 00:16:26,719 Speaker 5: all the appointments and we were doing a belated honeymoon 290 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:30,319 Speaker 5: when she got a job offer that was like something 291 00:16:30,319 --> 00:16:32,959 Speaker 5: that she didn't want to turn down. We ended up 292 00:16:33,079 --> 00:16:36,079 Speaker 5: delaying the first insemination like a week before we were 293 00:16:36,079 --> 00:16:38,679 Speaker 5: supposed to do it. That was basically right at the 294 00:16:38,719 --> 00:16:44,399 Speaker 5: time when this was all unraveling. In retrospect, I'm grateful. 295 00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:48,599 Speaker 5: I think I was just like so desperate to fix 296 00:16:49,039 --> 00:16:51,239 Speaker 5: to not be in the place we were in that 297 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:54,439 Speaker 5: I was willing to keep going. 298 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:57,239 Speaker 3: I guess, so for a year you were making efforts 299 00:16:57,359 --> 00:17:00,119 Speaker 3: to do everything you can to accommodate her needs. Two 300 00:17:00,199 --> 00:17:02,039 Speaker 3: years after that you was still together, but you just 301 00:17:02,119 --> 00:17:03,559 Speaker 3: kept that up or did. 302 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 4: Something change it got worse. 303 00:17:06,199 --> 00:17:08,319 Speaker 5: In addition to like all these other areas of her 304 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 5: needs not being met, she said that we needed to 305 00:17:12,999 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 5: explore opening up the relationship so she could sleep with 306 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 5: other people. 307 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 1: So there was this conversation about initiating sex. But were 308 00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:23,599 Speaker 1: you not having as much sex as she wanted? Was 309 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: that also part of it? And was that because you 310 00:17:26,479 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: have different needs around that, or because there was so 311 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: much difficulty in the relationship you were not feeling like 312 00:17:34,199 --> 00:17:36,799 Speaker 1: you wanted to have sex, or are you generally somebody 313 00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:40,279 Speaker 1: who was not as interested in the frequency of sex 314 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:41,039 Speaker 1: that she wanted. 315 00:17:42,319 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 4: I think it's a. 316 00:17:42,879 --> 00:17:46,079 Speaker 5: Hard question because I the time probably would have said 317 00:17:46,759 --> 00:17:51,519 Speaker 5: that there was something wrong with me for not wanting 318 00:17:51,919 --> 00:17:54,839 Speaker 5: to have sex as much as I didn't want to 319 00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:57,759 Speaker 5: have sex. I think in retrospect, I now realized that 320 00:17:57,799 --> 00:17:59,039 Speaker 5: I was feeling really unsafe. 321 00:18:00,479 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: Help me understand uns I'm missing something. You weren't feeling 322 00:18:03,199 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: unsafe in the beginning of the relation at all. So 323 00:18:06,639 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: in general, she wanted to have sex more frequently than you. 324 00:18:09,599 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: That's right, okay, And then it just wasn't addressed. 325 00:18:14,239 --> 00:18:18,479 Speaker 5: I think it was basically yet not addressed to her satisfaction. 326 00:18:18,559 --> 00:18:20,519 Speaker 5: I didn't realize that until she brought it up after 327 00:18:20,559 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 5: we got married. 328 00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:25,279 Speaker 3: Okay, so she wanted to open up the relationship. You 329 00:18:25,479 --> 00:18:26,959 Speaker 3: did not well. 330 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:28,039 Speaker 6: When we were dating. 331 00:18:28,679 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 5: She had said that this was something that eventually she'd 332 00:18:30,639 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 5: want to explore, and I said okay to that or 333 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 5: when we were dating, but that it was sort of 334 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:35,999 Speaker 5: in the future. 335 00:18:36,279 --> 00:18:37,279 Speaker 3: But was it okay for you? 336 00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 4: I think I. 337 00:18:40,159 --> 00:18:43,799 Speaker 5: Convinced myself that it was okay with me because that 338 00:18:43,959 --> 00:18:44,799 Speaker 5: was what she wanted. 339 00:18:45,559 --> 00:18:48,319 Speaker 3: It's an interesting response from the person who supposedly doesn't 340 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 3: meet her needs and only makes it about you. Yeah, 341 00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:58,759 Speaker 3: that's you actually doing the opposite, meeting her needs and 342 00:18:58,879 --> 00:18:59,599 Speaker 3: dismissing you. 343 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 5: Yeah, in retrospect, I can see that I wasn't deep 344 00:19:05,239 --> 00:19:07,759 Speaker 5: down in touch with my own needs about this, because 345 00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:10,079 Speaker 5: I would cry every time we talk about it. 346 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:11,759 Speaker 6: Was not something that I was comfortable with. 347 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 5: I convinced myself that I was fine with it until 348 00:19:15,879 --> 00:19:20,479 Speaker 5: she kissed someone for the first time and I had 349 00:19:20,519 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 5: like a really emotional reaction to it. 350 00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:24,519 Speaker 1: How did you hear about that? 351 00:19:24,999 --> 00:19:25,519 Speaker 4: She told me. 352 00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:29,279 Speaker 1: But there were rules around opening up the relationship, and 353 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:32,279 Speaker 1: that was that you would tell each other that you 354 00:19:33,679 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 1: had seen someone else, or you would tell the details, 355 00:19:36,319 --> 00:19:38,559 Speaker 1: like we had sex or we kissed. What were the 356 00:19:38,639 --> 00:19:39,239 Speaker 1: rules around this? 357 00:19:40,399 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 5: The rules that we had said were basically like it 358 00:19:43,719 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 5: wouldn't be something that would be a long ongoing relationship, 359 00:19:50,159 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 5: that it couldn't be somebody who she had any emotional 360 00:19:54,199 --> 00:19:57,759 Speaker 5: connection with, and that I had to know that it 361 00:19:57,799 --> 00:20:00,559 Speaker 5: was happening. We said that we would kind of determine 362 00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:01,759 Speaker 5: how much I wanted to know. 363 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 3: Well, sorry, this was set up in that one sided 364 00:20:05,479 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 3: way that this is mostly something she'd be doing and 365 00:20:07,639 --> 00:20:08,519 Speaker 3: you would be tolerating. 366 00:20:10,239 --> 00:20:17,559 Speaker 5: Yeah, I was operating with a lot of abandonment preventions strategies. 367 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 5: I can see that now, but at the time I 368 00:20:20,719 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 5: was so desperate to just save the marriage that I 369 00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:27,559 Speaker 5: convinced myself that it was okay, and I really believed it. 370 00:20:27,639 --> 00:20:30,519 Speaker 6: I really believed it was okay until she kissed someone. 371 00:20:31,199 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 6: And when she kissed someone, it was almost. 372 00:20:32,679 --> 00:20:36,799 Speaker 5: Like my body couldn't hold it together anymore, Like, oh, wait, 373 00:20:36,959 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 5: you're not okay with this. And so we had a 374 00:20:40,239 --> 00:20:43,999 Speaker 5: conversation where I said I'm having a hard time with. 375 00:20:43,879 --> 00:20:45,039 Speaker 3: This, and. 376 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:52,599 Speaker 6: She said she didn't care, that she was going to 377 00:20:52,679 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 6: keep going. 378 00:20:54,399 --> 00:21:00,559 Speaker 5: But at the time she was doing this, she also 379 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 5: started to become cruel to me. She would just burate 380 00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:07,079 Speaker 5: me for. 381 00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 6: A lot of things, things about myself. 382 00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 5: And so I was living in this place where nobody 383 00:21:15,719 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 5: in my friends or family knew what was going on. 384 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 5: But she was pursuing other people and yelling at me 385 00:21:25,239 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 5: at home, and I felt really alone. 386 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,999 Speaker 1: Why did nobody in your circle of friends and family 387 00:21:33,079 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 1: know what was going on? 388 00:21:37,239 --> 00:21:39,279 Speaker 4: We were like the Golden couple. 389 00:21:39,719 --> 00:21:43,239 Speaker 6: We had this huge group of friends and family. 390 00:21:42,239 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 5: And so that fall I started to talk to my 391 00:21:45,959 --> 00:21:50,039 Speaker 5: friends and she got really really angry at me, but 392 00:21:51,399 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 5: became a really big issue her. 393 00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 6: Yelling at me for like telling my friends what was 394 00:21:58,159 --> 00:21:58,559 Speaker 6: going on? 395 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 3: Did you stop telling them? 396 00:22:00,679 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: Then? 397 00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:08,839 Speaker 5: I didn't stop telling them. I was really careful about 398 00:22:08,839 --> 00:22:11,479 Speaker 5: what I said, so a lot of them didn't know 399 00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 5: the extent of it until it got further along. And 400 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:19,039 Speaker 5: I feel grateful, like every day for my friends because 401 00:22:19,079 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 5: they kept pushing me to like speak more and be 402 00:22:23,319 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 5: more honest about what was happening, because that was what 403 00:22:29,199 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 5: ultimately let me realize it wasn't okay what was going on. 404 00:22:33,439 --> 00:22:34,799 Speaker 5: When she would tell me that it was all my 405 00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:38,319 Speaker 5: fault or that I was weak, or that I was 406 00:22:38,399 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 5: like selfish, or that I was abandoning her. 407 00:22:44,719 --> 00:22:46,559 Speaker 6: All these things, I believed them. 408 00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 4: It took talking to. 409 00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 5: Other people for me to start to consider that that 410 00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 5: wasn't true, and that I didn't have to stay, that 411 00:22:57,439 --> 00:22:58,519 Speaker 5: I wasn't stuck. 412 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 6: But that took a really long time. 413 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: You know, Shannon, you wrote us about the holidays, and 414 00:23:06,639 --> 00:23:11,039 Speaker 1: the way people think about the holidays is influenced heavily 415 00:23:11,439 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: by what they've experienced before and what they might be 416 00:23:14,479 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: experiencing at the time, as opposed to the holiday itself. 417 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,519 Speaker 1: And you are not even a year out from the 418 00:23:25,679 --> 00:23:29,599 Speaker 1: end of a long relationship. When it's your entire twenties, 419 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:34,079 Speaker 1: it's a long time, and it ended right around the 420 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: holidays last year. So there's that, and you're grieving, and 421 00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:43,279 Speaker 1: you're also processing and going through some post trauma work, 422 00:23:44,959 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: and so all of this is going on at the 423 00:23:47,239 --> 00:23:50,999 Speaker 1: time that we are sold this idea that the holidays 424 00:23:50,999 --> 00:23:55,599 Speaker 1: are going to be great. It's the holiday season, and 425 00:23:55,639 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: there's a big mismatch between what you're actually experiencing and 426 00:23:59,439 --> 00:24:02,239 Speaker 1: what you're told you should be experiencing. It's a little 427 00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: bit like in your relationship, you were told you should 428 00:24:04,719 --> 00:24:06,319 Speaker 1: just go along with this and be okay with this, 429 00:24:06,399 --> 00:24:08,039 Speaker 1: and there was another part of you that was saying, 430 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:10,519 Speaker 1: I'm not okay with this, right, So the false self 431 00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:14,319 Speaker 1: and the authentic self, And so I just want to 432 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,319 Speaker 1: put a pin in that for a minute and go 433 00:24:17,399 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 1: back a little bit farther. I think Guy and I 434 00:24:19,719 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: are both very curious about the divorce of your parents. 435 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: You mentioned a little bit about what holidays were like then, 436 00:24:26,199 --> 00:24:29,079 Speaker 1: but tell us about how old you were, what happened 437 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: when your parents got divorced, what changed in your life. 438 00:24:32,879 --> 00:24:35,599 Speaker 6: I was three when my parents got divorced. My brother 439 00:24:35,719 --> 00:24:36,079 Speaker 6: was two. 440 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:42,079 Speaker 5: I don't remember, obviously, but from what some family friends 441 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,759 Speaker 5: told me, it was pretty contentious, like they hated one another. 442 00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 5: I still they couldn't talk to one another. A lot 443 00:24:52,199 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 5: of that communication was done through me. They had joint custody. 444 00:24:55,719 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 5: That schedule was a hot mess. 445 00:24:57,399 --> 00:25:00,039 Speaker 1: Honestly, it was a hot mess because they hadn't worked 446 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: out a custody schedule, or they didn't follow the schedule 447 00:25:02,439 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: that was worked out. 448 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:05,799 Speaker 5: They had worked out a custody schedule. But one of 449 00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:08,519 Speaker 5: the biggest issues growing up was equal time. There was 450 00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:12,759 Speaker 5: this issue if equal time to the like minute or second, 451 00:25:13,399 --> 00:25:16,519 Speaker 5: if it was like a minute after. You know, my 452 00:25:16,679 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 5: dad's time, there was always just constant yelling about how 453 00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 5: I don't have enough time, or you don't have enough time, 454 00:25:23,239 --> 00:25:25,479 Speaker 5: and so it's basically designed so that they each could 455 00:25:25,479 --> 00:25:26,839 Speaker 5: have the exact. 456 00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:29,999 Speaker 6: Equal amount of time because they loved us so much. 457 00:25:30,199 --> 00:25:32,839 Speaker 5: I sometimes say like they loved a little too hard, 458 00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 5: Like I know, that's silly. 459 00:25:35,079 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: Growing up, then, where did you spend the holidays with 460 00:25:38,279 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 1: this hot mess of a custody? 461 00:25:41,239 --> 00:25:49,799 Speaker 6: So I would do two Thanksgivings, usually on the same day. Yeah, 462 00:25:49,919 --> 00:25:50,319 Speaker 6: I ate. 463 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:50,839 Speaker 4: A lot of food. 464 00:25:51,879 --> 00:25:54,599 Speaker 5: Luckily they didn't live too far away, so we could 465 00:25:54,679 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 5: go back and forth, and then for the winter holidays. 466 00:25:58,159 --> 00:26:02,319 Speaker 5: Luckily my dad is Jewish, my mom's Christian. I remember 467 00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:06,999 Speaker 5: growing up thinking like thank God because it made that 468 00:26:07,199 --> 00:26:09,839 Speaker 5: so much easier. There was always a issue though my 469 00:26:09,919 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 5: dad would bring up. He would think, does he get 470 00:26:11,999 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 5: me for all the nights of Hanukkah? My mom Christmas 471 00:26:15,919 --> 00:26:18,519 Speaker 5: is only one night, So there was some of that 472 00:26:18,919 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 5: fighting in addition to other issues. 473 00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:22,599 Speaker 1: Did either of your parents remarry? 474 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,559 Speaker 5: My dad remarried when I was in college, but had 475 00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:33,319 Speaker 5: like a lot of girlfriends growing up, and my mom 476 00:26:35,079 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 5: she dated somebody when I was really little, like maybe 477 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 5: five or six, and then after that she didn't date 478 00:26:40,999 --> 00:26:43,239 Speaker 5: anybody until I was in seventh grade, and then got 479 00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 5: married when I was in ninth grade, and they got 480 00:26:45,239 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 5: divorced when I was in eleventh grade. 481 00:26:47,439 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 6: The only time my parents ever. 482 00:26:49,159 --> 00:26:53,759 Speaker 5: Were in the same vicinity was once a year on 483 00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:57,239 Speaker 5: my birthday or once a year on my brother Josh's birthday. 484 00:26:57,639 --> 00:27:01,759 Speaker 1: How did you feel about the holidays as a kid, anticipating, Oh, 485 00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:03,599 Speaker 1: it's going to be Thanksgiving, it's going to be Hannakah, 486 00:27:03,639 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: it's going to be Christmas. 487 00:27:05,479 --> 00:27:08,239 Speaker 5: It was stressful. I was excited in like the way 488 00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 5: you would decorate. My mom and I. 489 00:27:10,399 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 6: Would make Christmas cookies, and. 490 00:27:13,399 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 5: My dad and my brother and I would light the 491 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,799 Speaker 5: candles for Hanuakah, Like I remember loving the traditions. But yeah, 492 00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 5: it was really stressful to be going back and forth 493 00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 5: just fighting my dad on the phone with me and 494 00:27:28,959 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 5: me standing next to my mom and my dad's screaming 495 00:27:31,199 --> 00:27:34,519 Speaker 5: in my ear to tell my mom this and vice versa, 496 00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:37,799 Speaker 5: and like basically trying to figure out some way that 497 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 5: we could spend time with both at the holidays. 498 00:27:40,439 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 3: And have it be. 499 00:27:42,639 --> 00:27:45,759 Speaker 5: Like, who are we going to go to Thanksgiving with first, 500 00:27:45,999 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 5: because then that dictated whether or not I would spend 501 00:27:48,679 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 5: the night, whose house I would spend the night at, 502 00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:52,079 Speaker 5: which was always a big thing. 503 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:56,839 Speaker 3: So usually these holidays, a lot of them are planned 504 00:27:56,879 --> 00:28:00,959 Speaker 3: around the kids, and yet it was very clearly centered 505 00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 3: around your parents, because they were fighting tooth and nail 506 00:28:03,999 --> 00:28:08,519 Speaker 3: about every millimeter. And usually when kids go up in 507 00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 3: that situation, they learn to become attuned to their parents' 508 00:28:13,159 --> 00:28:16,519 Speaker 3: feelings and needs because no one's asking them how they 509 00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:21,559 Speaker 3: feel about it. And when Rebecca said to you, hey, 510 00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 3: this is all about you, this isn't about me, your 511 00:28:23,919 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 3: response to it was to go into fixed mode, in 512 00:28:26,439 --> 00:28:28,559 Speaker 3: which do you, as much as possible, try to make 513 00:28:28,599 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 3: it about her. I'm saying all of this because here 514 00:28:32,879 --> 00:28:36,759 Speaker 3: we are facing another holiday season in which, in your 515 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:39,879 Speaker 3: letter you are clear about how distressing it would be 516 00:28:39,879 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 3: for your mom to be alone, or for your dad 517 00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:43,599 Speaker 3: to think this, or for your dad to be jealous, 518 00:28:43,639 --> 00:28:45,679 Speaker 3: or for your mom to be jealous, And how do 519 00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:49,359 Speaker 3: I deal with all the other people's feelings? And I 520 00:28:49,399 --> 00:28:54,759 Speaker 3: think that, in the stage of rebuilding after what sounds 521 00:28:54,879 --> 00:29:00,839 Speaker 3: like an emotionally abusive relationship, that this year it needs 522 00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:01,839 Speaker 3: to be about you. 523 00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:08,119 Speaker 6: I don't even know what that means. 524 00:29:09,399 --> 00:29:11,839 Speaker 3: I actually agree you probably don't, but I'm growing it 525 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 3: out there anyway, because that's that's something I would like 526 00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:18,679 Speaker 3: you to just think about as an unusual notion. 527 00:29:20,359 --> 00:29:24,199 Speaker 6: That's probably what my friends would say and my therapist. 528 00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 1: Sometimes when kids grow up and they're very aware of 529 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:32,999 Speaker 1: their parents' needs in a way that maybe isn't age 530 00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:37,679 Speaker 1: appropriate because they're so young, two things happen. On the 531 00:29:37,719 --> 00:29:41,359 Speaker 1: one hand, kids feel like, I have to look out 532 00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 1: for other people's needs and I don't know how to 533 00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:46,999 Speaker 1: even know what my needs are. But what they do, 534 00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:49,719 Speaker 1: on the other hand, is they feel so desperate to 535 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:53,079 Speaker 1: get their needs met because they haven't in certain ways 536 00:29:53,879 --> 00:29:57,359 Speaker 1: that sometimes they're not aware of the ways in which 537 00:29:57,559 --> 00:30:00,839 Speaker 1: they are asking other people to meet their needs. And 538 00:30:00,879 --> 00:30:03,359 Speaker 1: we do tend to regress during the holidays, you know, 539 00:30:03,399 --> 00:30:05,239 Speaker 1: we go home and all of a sudden, we feel 540 00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 1: sixteen again, and we don't know why, Like that remark 541 00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:09,519 Speaker 1: that mom made, or that thing that your siblings did 542 00:30:09,639 --> 00:30:11,919 Speaker 1: or whatever, all of a sudden, you just go straight 543 00:30:11,959 --> 00:30:14,319 Speaker 1: back to that knee jerk reaction you would have had 544 00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:17,079 Speaker 1: when you were younger. And so we want you to 545 00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:20,999 Speaker 1: be really thoughtful before the holidays this year about what 546 00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:23,319 Speaker 1: would it look like to be an adult in your 547 00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:27,399 Speaker 1: early thirties who can sit with the fact that you're 548 00:30:27,399 --> 00:30:29,359 Speaker 1: not quite sure what your needs are, but you're going 549 00:30:29,399 --> 00:30:32,399 Speaker 1: to make your best guess because you're going to reflect 550 00:30:32,479 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 1: on it, not make an impulsive decision, and take the 551 00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:40,399 Speaker 1: time to sort through what it is that you want. 552 00:30:40,439 --> 00:30:43,399 Speaker 1: In your letter, you throw out all these options, but 553 00:30:43,559 --> 00:30:46,519 Speaker 1: I think you actually know what you want to do, 554 00:30:46,559 --> 00:30:49,639 Speaker 1: but you're almost asking for permission. Is it okay if 555 00:30:49,679 --> 00:30:54,599 Speaker 1: I meet my own needs this unusually stressful holiday season 556 00:30:54,679 --> 00:30:58,319 Speaker 1: where there's COVID to consider, there's the end of a 557 00:30:58,919 --> 00:31:04,879 Speaker 1: marriage that was traumatic, and then there's the history that 558 00:31:04,959 --> 00:31:07,679 Speaker 1: I have with my family around the holidays where it's stressful, 559 00:31:09,399 --> 00:31:11,759 Speaker 1: and that we think that you said in your letter 560 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:13,839 Speaker 1: what you want to do. I want to hear you 561 00:31:13,879 --> 00:31:16,239 Speaker 1: say out loud, what it is that you think you 562 00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:16,679 Speaker 1: want to do? 563 00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:24,679 Speaker 5: Oh my god, Honestly, nobody's asking me that I haven't 564 00:31:24,719 --> 00:31:25,679 Speaker 5: actually thought about it. 565 00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:32,319 Speaker 1: If it wasn't about worrying about how other people were 566 00:31:32,319 --> 00:31:37,599 Speaker 1: going to be impacted, what is it that feels nourishing 567 00:31:37,679 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 1: to you this holiday season? 568 00:31:41,439 --> 00:31:45,759 Speaker 5: I'd probably spent it with my best friend who just 569 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 5: had a baby and her family. Her family sort of 570 00:31:48,999 --> 00:31:51,839 Speaker 5: become a second family to me here across the country 571 00:31:51,879 --> 00:31:52,479 Speaker 5: from my own. 572 00:31:52,879 --> 00:31:59,559 Speaker 6: I lived with them for like the first month after leaving. 573 00:31:59,679 --> 00:32:01,759 Speaker 5: I didn't have a place to stay yet, and so 574 00:32:01,999 --> 00:32:02,999 Speaker 5: they let me live with them. 575 00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,759 Speaker 1: What was that like when you lived with them? 576 00:32:07,879 --> 00:32:13,079 Speaker 6: I felt so lucky, just so grateful to have the 577 00:32:13,119 --> 00:32:18,319 Speaker 6: best people in my life. They sat with me and 578 00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 6: cried with me, and raged with me about things, and. 579 00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:28,239 Speaker 4: Ate dinner with me. 580 00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 5: It just felt like a home in my home had 581 00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:34,919 Speaker 5: not for a really long time, my home that I 582 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:36,039 Speaker 5: had to leave. 583 00:32:37,399 --> 00:32:38,159 Speaker 4: Felt like home. 584 00:32:39,439 --> 00:32:42,279 Speaker 3: A general tip you can use and maybe others can 585 00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:45,519 Speaker 3: use as well, is when you are unsure of what 586 00:32:45,599 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 3: you will need or what you want, but you have 587 00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:52,839 Speaker 3: good friends, ask yourself what your friends would say that 588 00:32:52,879 --> 00:32:55,119 Speaker 3: you needed or wanted. There's not going to be the 589 00:32:55,239 --> 00:32:56,919 Speaker 3: entire rounds, but it's a good place to stop. 590 00:32:57,279 --> 00:32:59,839 Speaker 1: And the reason isn't that your friends know you better 591 00:32:59,879 --> 00:33:02,599 Speaker 1: than you do. Nobody knows you better than you do, 592 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:06,959 Speaker 1: but we know that your friends are more compassionate towards 593 00:33:06,999 --> 00:33:10,879 Speaker 1: you than you are. At this moment, when you learn 594 00:33:10,959 --> 00:33:14,479 Speaker 1: to be more self compassionate. Your internal compass is going 595 00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:15,679 Speaker 1: to be a lot more accurate. 596 00:33:15,999 --> 00:33:18,119 Speaker 3: And also the friends don't have that wait but how 597 00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:20,879 Speaker 3: mom feel? Wait but what will that say? They don't 598 00:33:20,919 --> 00:33:22,839 Speaker 3: have that thing blocking you, so the minute you have 599 00:33:22,879 --> 00:33:25,439 Speaker 3: a thought, it gets blocked. These friends, how many of 600 00:33:25,479 --> 00:33:27,319 Speaker 3: them are there that we would say are really close? 601 00:33:28,039 --> 00:33:28,599 Speaker 4: So many? 602 00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:32,519 Speaker 6: I feel like they saved my life. Honestly, coming out 603 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:34,279 Speaker 6: of that relationship, I. 604 00:33:34,239 --> 00:33:39,799 Speaker 5: Have probably I don't know ten people here who would 605 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:41,359 Speaker 5: drop anything, did drop anything? 606 00:33:41,439 --> 00:33:42,599 Speaker 6: Help me move out of my house? 607 00:33:43,239 --> 00:33:45,039 Speaker 3: It should be one for every night of Hanaka with 608 00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:50,519 Speaker 3: a spear, so you have enough friends to see you 609 00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:53,119 Speaker 3: through the holiday. If that's what you're not going to decide. 610 00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:58,679 Speaker 1: To do, Yeah, we're going to hear in your words, 611 00:33:59,879 --> 00:34:02,399 Speaker 1: this isn't necessarily what you're going to do. Just to 612 00:34:02,439 --> 00:34:06,039 Speaker 1: take the pressure off of yourself. We just want to 613 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:10,639 Speaker 1: get you in touch with what your needs are. If 614 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: you picture yourself during the holidays, and you use the 615 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,519 Speaker 1: word safe before and you feel safe and you feel loved, 616 00:34:17,759 --> 00:34:21,039 Speaker 1: and you use the word home and you feel like 617 00:34:22,439 --> 00:34:24,999 Speaker 1: this feels like the kind of home that I want 618 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: to create for myself, what would you do this holiday season? 619 00:34:29,959 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: Where would you spend it with? Whom would you spend it? 620 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 6: I would be with my friends. They've become like chosen family. 621 00:34:43,959 --> 00:34:49,919 Speaker 6: They've given me keys to their homes because they want 622 00:34:49,959 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 6: me to have it feel like mine. 623 00:34:51,879 --> 00:34:55,479 Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. There's something so symbolic about that that 624 00:34:55,559 --> 00:34:58,079 Speaker 1: you were talking about a sense of home and they 625 00:34:58,119 --> 00:35:01,559 Speaker 1: gave you keys to their homes so that it could 626 00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:02,999 Speaker 1: feel like you were home too. 627 00:35:06,479 --> 00:35:11,919 Speaker 4: When I left, my best friend gave me keys. 628 00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:14,679 Speaker 5: I had a suitcase that I had dropped it off 629 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:19,639 Speaker 5: at her house, and she made me a whole package 630 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:23,159 Speaker 5: of things that were all my favorite stuff to make 631 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 5: me feel like, well, I didn't have a home anymore 632 00:35:26,279 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 5: like that. 633 00:35:28,479 --> 00:35:30,199 Speaker 4: That this could be mine too. 634 00:35:30,799 --> 00:35:31,559 Speaker 1: What did she make? 635 00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:36,679 Speaker 6: There was a bath bomb because I loved taking baths. 636 00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:43,519 Speaker 5: There was wine. There was a quote because I love quotes. 637 00:35:46,359 --> 00:35:50,399 Speaker 5: There was tissues. There's a lot in there which just 638 00:35:50,439 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 5: basically trying to show me that I might feel alone, 639 00:35:52,999 --> 00:35:54,999 Speaker 5: but I'm not actually alone. 640 00:35:55,319 --> 00:35:57,639 Speaker 1: You were seen and understood and loved. 641 00:36:00,479 --> 00:36:05,039 Speaker 3: And what a wonderful thing that, given that you grew 642 00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:07,599 Speaker 3: up with parents who albeit loved you so much they 643 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:12,639 Speaker 3: fought over you in some crazy ways, but stressed you 644 00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:17,559 Speaker 3: out because of it, and then you were in a 645 00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:19,519 Speaker 3: marriage with someone who turned out to be a very 646 00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:23,559 Speaker 3: different person than you thought they were, and yet you 647 00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:30,919 Speaker 3: gather around you. Yeah, these ridiculously loyal good friends. I 648 00:36:30,959 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 3: mean that care package was one point, get in the bath, 649 00:36:34,879 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 3: have a glass of wine. Think of the quote, and 650 00:36:38,839 --> 00:36:41,519 Speaker 3: here's sometime she's still when you cry. So I mean 651 00:36:41,559 --> 00:36:42,559 Speaker 3: it was very well. 652 00:36:42,439 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: Done, Shannon. Did Rebecca ever do things like that for 653 00:36:46,439 --> 00:36:48,079 Speaker 1: you in your relationship? 654 00:36:49,839 --> 00:36:54,479 Speaker 5: Early on, she was really amazing at like showing me 655 00:36:55,319 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 5: love and care. There was a lot of big gestures 656 00:36:58,919 --> 00:37:03,959 Speaker 5: I felt really loved and cared for. But afterwards, the 657 00:37:03,999 --> 00:37:05,599 Speaker 5: thing that came to my mind just now was my 658 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:06,679 Speaker 5: birthday that year. 659 00:37:07,439 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 4: She didn't even talk to me in. 660 00:37:09,759 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 3: The early parts before that one month after the wedding too. 661 00:37:14,919 --> 00:37:17,199 Speaker 3: Would you do things like that just just like that 662 00:37:17,279 --> 00:37:18,039 Speaker 3: for her as well? 663 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,159 Speaker 6: Yeah, for her thirtieth birthday, I wanted her to see 664 00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:22,959 Speaker 6: how love she was, and I got all the people 665 00:37:22,999 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 6: in her life to send birthday messages and then I 666 00:37:26,439 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 6: did like a scavenger hunt thirty things for your thirtieth 667 00:37:29,359 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 6: Birthday throughout the day and ended with giving her the book. 668 00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:33,999 Speaker 1: Did she enjoy that was she moved by. 669 00:37:33,839 --> 00:37:35,039 Speaker 4: That, she loved it. 670 00:37:35,439 --> 00:37:37,199 Speaker 3: That's why it was such a blind sight for her 671 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,159 Speaker 3: to come and see, you don't do anything for me, 672 00:37:39,879 --> 00:37:41,479 Speaker 3: because he has just one example. 673 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,479 Speaker 6: That is the voice that's in my head constantly. 674 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:47,919 Speaker 4: Still it is like, am I crazy? 675 00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: I want to give this a little bit more nuance, 676 00:37:53,879 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: which is that there are probably ways that you did 677 00:37:57,359 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: not meet her niece. 678 00:37:58,519 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed, And. 679 00:38:00,319 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: That's a real learning experience. The issue isn't whether you 680 00:38:04,359 --> 00:38:06,639 Speaker 1: met her niece. The issue is what happened between the 681 00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: two of you when this finally got discussed and it 682 00:38:09,799 --> 00:38:15,159 Speaker 1: seemed like there wasn't a conversation around this that would 683 00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 1: make it about the two of you as a couple. 684 00:38:17,959 --> 00:38:20,199 Speaker 1: I've been feeling this way for a long time. I 685 00:38:20,279 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 1: know that you do some nice things for me, but 686 00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 1: in general, I'm feeling neglected and here's why. And can 687 00:38:26,919 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: we talk about this and even not agreeing to go 688 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,999 Speaker 1: to couple's therapy, well, how do you deal with that 689 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:36,959 Speaker 1: as a couple and talk about it so it's not 690 00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: so cut and dry, And I think that's going to 691 00:38:41,359 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 1: be more helpful for you to be able to really examine, well, 692 00:38:44,399 --> 00:38:46,559 Speaker 1: what are the ways where there was truth to what 693 00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:47,039 Speaker 1: she said. 694 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 6: Yeah, So I'm not. 695 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,519 Speaker 1: Debating necessarily the truth of what she said because she 696 00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 1: felt that what was traumatic about it was the way 697 00:38:53,879 --> 00:38:56,599 Speaker 1: it was handled and the way that there was no 698 00:38:56,879 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: real viable way to repair this where the two of 699 00:39:00,839 --> 00:39:04,999 Speaker 1: you were working together as a team in open dialogue 700 00:39:04,999 --> 00:39:05,519 Speaker 1: around this. 701 00:39:05,919 --> 00:39:09,039 Speaker 5: I think that resonates a lot with me, because I 702 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:12,599 Speaker 5: would say that a lot, especially as my friends were 703 00:39:13,839 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 5: telling me this isn't okay. There would be times earlier 704 00:39:17,399 --> 00:39:19,519 Speaker 5: on before I talked to people where she would just 705 00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:22,559 Speaker 5: brate me, and I look back and I wished I 706 00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:24,959 Speaker 5: had just walked away or said I don't want to engage, 707 00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 5: But I just thought that, like I needed to stay 708 00:39:27,959 --> 00:39:30,119 Speaker 5: and prove to her that I could tolerate it. 709 00:39:30,799 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: There's a difference between saying here's what the issue is 710 00:39:35,679 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: and for you to feel, yeah, I could do better there, right. 711 00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:42,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, there were so many ways I could do better, right, 712 00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 5: And that's a learning experience. 713 00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:45,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it sounds like the way that that was 714 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:48,479 Speaker 1: communicated that there was an element of shaming you. 715 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:49,679 Speaker 4: Yeah. 716 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,479 Speaker 5: One of the things that happened when you said shame 717 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:56,959 Speaker 5: was she threatened me that she was going to tell 718 00:39:56,999 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 5: people about what I liked or didn't like in sex, 719 00:40:00,799 --> 00:40:03,679 Speaker 5: because I was talking to people what was happening. 720 00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:07,159 Speaker 3: I want to point outon I think it's a little 721 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 3: worse than what you're presenting, because really the subtext of 722 00:40:10,839 --> 00:40:13,039 Speaker 3: what happened a month after the wedding was she comes 723 00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:16,679 Speaker 3: to you and she says you have failed me so 724 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 3: drastically that I am now revoking every right you have 725 00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:23,999 Speaker 3: in this marriage. So you've lost your rights. It's not 726 00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 3: about you anymore. I don't owe you anything anymore. I 727 00:40:26,319 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 3: don't have to do anything now. All the burden is 728 00:40:28,319 --> 00:40:30,039 Speaker 3: on you. You have to prove it to me. And 729 00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 3: if you start complaining, oh God forbid crying or having 730 00:40:32,799 --> 00:40:35,079 Speaker 3: feelings about it, I'm not going to accept that because 731 00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:36,639 Speaker 3: I need you to prove to me that you can 732 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,399 Speaker 3: take it. So not only I'm going to be horribly 733 00:40:39,439 --> 00:40:42,479 Speaker 3: emotionally abusive to you from now on. You don't get 734 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:44,639 Speaker 3: to have a reaction because that will be a failure. 735 00:40:45,839 --> 00:40:51,079 Speaker 3: That was the messaging. It's very severe, and I'm not 736 00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:55,439 Speaker 3: sure even now you've fully wrapped your head around how 737 00:40:55,479 --> 00:40:56,599 Speaker 3: bad that. 738 00:40:56,679 --> 00:40:57,439 Speaker 4: Is what happened. 739 00:40:58,359 --> 00:41:01,039 Speaker 5: I think I get it, but I question myself so 740 00:41:01,199 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 5: much still that it's like hard for me, I feel 741 00:41:03,839 --> 00:41:04,839 Speaker 5: crazy sometimes. 742 00:41:04,839 --> 00:41:08,199 Speaker 1: Still, I think you're having trouble holding two things in 743 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 1: your mind at the same time. One is that there 744 00:41:12,319 --> 00:41:14,959 Speaker 1: may be were things that you could have done differently 745 00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:20,959 Speaker 1: and you weren't aware of them, and that was part 746 00:41:20,959 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: of the learning and the growth. The other thing is 747 00:41:23,759 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: that you weren't given the environment in which you could 748 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:32,079 Speaker 1: have done something productive about it. And so when you say, well, 749 00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: I think I'm crazy or I don't know who's at fault. 750 00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,599 Speaker 1: You both did things in the relationship. But I think 751 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: ultimately what you're left with is this obsessive rumination around 752 00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:46,639 Speaker 1: am I bad because she made you feel so bad 753 00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: all the time about who you are as a person. 754 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:50,679 Speaker 1: That's where the shame is. 755 00:41:50,799 --> 00:41:51,079 Speaker 4: Shame. 756 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 1: Is I am bad? I am selfish, I'm not capable, 757 00:41:56,119 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: I'm not strong enough. That was the message. 758 00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:02,079 Speaker 3: You are in a recovery process after being in an 759 00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:07,079 Speaker 3: abusive situation, and it takes time to recover because you 760 00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:10,919 Speaker 3: will feel guilty when you start thinking about what your 761 00:42:10,999 --> 00:42:13,919 Speaker 3: needs are. Is this reasonable that I want to spend 762 00:42:14,039 --> 00:42:16,679 Speaker 3: Christmas with my friends? Is it reasonable that I feel 763 00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 3: this way? Am I allowed to cry? Now? Is that Okay, 764 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 3: you know all of that. It takes time. 765 00:42:22,399 --> 00:42:24,199 Speaker 1: I want to add the layer of COVID to this 766 00:42:24,279 --> 00:42:28,599 Speaker 1: as well, because we're in the middle of a global 767 00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:33,079 Speaker 1: pandemic where most people are having some version of your dilemma. 768 00:42:33,479 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: My family wants me to go home. I don't feel 769 00:42:35,839 --> 00:42:39,079 Speaker 1: like it's safe in a situation where the parents are divorced. 770 00:42:39,279 --> 00:42:42,159 Speaker 1: How much do I quarantine whose feelings are going to 771 00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 1: get hurt, because that's going to mean I need fourteen 772 00:42:44,919 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: days here in fourteen days there, and it's a lot 773 00:42:47,799 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: of heavy lifting, more so than a normal year. I 774 00:42:51,759 --> 00:42:53,999 Speaker 1: think that you need to be able to give yourself 775 00:42:53,999 --> 00:42:57,199 Speaker 1: a break and say I have these very big stressors 776 00:42:57,479 --> 00:43:00,519 Speaker 1: in my life right now around the holidays. There's my 777 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:04,399 Speaker 1: history around the holidays. I don't have memories of it 778 00:43:04,759 --> 00:43:08,199 Speaker 1: being relaxed. I don't have memories of me getting to choose. 779 00:43:09,799 --> 00:43:12,199 Speaker 1: I've never had that experience. I don't know what that 780 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,159 Speaker 1: would even look like if I got to choose how 781 00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: to spend my holidays, even though I'm in my early things. 782 00:43:17,479 --> 00:43:20,119 Speaker 1: And then there's this issue of I just got out 783 00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: of a marriage that broke up last holiday season. So 784 00:43:22,799 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: on anniversaries of things, we tend to feel things more 785 00:43:26,759 --> 00:43:31,079 Speaker 1: deeply because the time of year sometimes brings back those 786 00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: memories in a sharper way. So you've got all that 787 00:43:33,879 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 1: going on, and what we're saying to you, and I'm 788 00:43:35,759 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: going to ask you one more time, is if you 789 00:43:40,879 --> 00:43:44,439 Speaker 1: can articulate what you want to do this holiday season, 790 00:43:45,199 --> 00:43:46,039 Speaker 1: what would that be. 791 00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:50,439 Speaker 5: I don't feel safe traveling, no matter how much that 792 00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:53,199 Speaker 5: is upsetting to anybody else. 793 00:43:58,279 --> 00:44:02,999 Speaker 1: So we were thinking about your history with the holidays 794 00:44:03,519 --> 00:44:06,639 Speaker 1: and what you're going through now and how it's coinciding 795 00:44:06,679 --> 00:44:09,079 Speaker 1: with this time of year. What would like you to 796 00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:14,639 Speaker 1: do is we'd like you to really think about how 797 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,959 Speaker 1: you can get your needs met during the holidays and 798 00:44:18,039 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: also meet other people's needs. Because I think one of 799 00:44:20,799 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 1: the things that tripped you up in your relationship and 800 00:44:23,359 --> 00:44:27,119 Speaker 1: probably growing up too, was there was so much focus 801 00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:29,679 Speaker 1: on whether your needs were getting met or you were 802 00:44:29,879 --> 00:44:33,399 Speaker 1: meeting somebody else's needs. But I don't think that you 803 00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:38,119 Speaker 1: really learned how to balance those two. And here's a 804 00:44:38,159 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: great opportunity in your early thirties, as an adult for 805 00:44:41,799 --> 00:44:43,919 Speaker 1: the first time, to say. 806 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:45,679 Speaker 4: What is it that I want? 807 00:44:46,439 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: And then how can I also be aware of what 808 00:44:48,399 --> 00:44:51,519 Speaker 1: other people want? Where I don't lose myself in that. 809 00:44:52,919 --> 00:44:57,399 Speaker 1: So we were thinking about Hanika, since that comes first 810 00:44:57,399 --> 00:45:01,919 Speaker 1: this year, and we were thinking about how there are 811 00:45:01,999 --> 00:45:05,439 Speaker 1: eight nights and we would like you to have that 812 00:45:05,479 --> 00:45:10,919 Speaker 1: balance of am I spending time with my dad and 813 00:45:11,279 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 1: maybe your brother if you also celebrated Hanukah with him, 814 00:45:14,479 --> 00:45:16,679 Speaker 1: and then my friends who mean so much to me, 815 00:45:16,759 --> 00:45:20,519 Speaker 1: and I think you called them your chosen family. So 816 00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:22,679 Speaker 1: what we'd like you to do is on the first 817 00:45:22,799 --> 00:45:25,039 Speaker 1: night of Hanukkah, we would like you to light that 818 00:45:25,159 --> 00:45:30,679 Speaker 1: candle on zoom with your dad, and we would like 819 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: you to come up with some kind of ritual that 820 00:45:33,919 --> 00:45:37,079 Speaker 1: you can do every year, something that makes you happy. 821 00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:39,919 Speaker 1: Maybe it's a song that you sing, Maybe it's decorating 822 00:45:39,959 --> 00:45:42,399 Speaker 1: that you do something that you can do with your 823 00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:45,039 Speaker 1: dad on zoom. You can light the candle, but maybe 824 00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 1: there's something else too, and maybe there's something even without 825 00:45:47,399 --> 00:45:49,559 Speaker 1: your dad. Maybe it is part of the decorating. Whatever 826 00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:50,879 Speaker 1: it is, but it's going to be yours. So we 827 00:45:50,919 --> 00:45:52,959 Speaker 1: don't want to give you too many ideas when it 828 00:45:52,999 --> 00:45:56,199 Speaker 1: to come from you. And then that's the first night. 829 00:45:56,279 --> 00:46:00,119 Speaker 1: The second night, we want you to light a candle 830 00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: on zoom with your brother and again have some kind 831 00:46:02,799 --> 00:46:06,079 Speaker 1: of sibling ritual with him, so that you're reframing the holidays. 832 00:46:06,119 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 1: You're recreating the holidays as an adult, and you're claiming 833 00:46:09,359 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: them as is yours. And you mentioned the excitement before, 834 00:46:13,439 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 1: and we want that excitement to transfer over into really 835 00:46:17,279 --> 00:46:21,439 Speaker 1: owning them from now on. And then you have six 836 00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:24,279 Speaker 1: nights left. And with each of those six nights, we 837 00:46:24,319 --> 00:46:27,479 Speaker 1: want you to on zoom to be safe with COVID. 838 00:46:28,039 --> 00:46:32,319 Speaker 1: We want you to light a candle, pick six friends, 839 00:46:32,359 --> 00:46:35,519 Speaker 1: and each night you'll do that with one of those 840 00:46:35,759 --> 00:46:36,639 Speaker 1: six friends. 841 00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:38,879 Speaker 3: You could do more than one. I mean, if you 842 00:46:38,919 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 3: want to do if there are some friends left over, 843 00:46:40,759 --> 00:46:44,599 Speaker 3: because it sounds like you might have leftovers that too much. 844 00:46:44,759 --> 00:46:47,079 Speaker 1: Do it however you want, but we want, we want 845 00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:49,159 Speaker 1: to start with the family and go over into the 846 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:49,959 Speaker 1: chosen family. 847 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,479 Speaker 3: Christmas has a similar vibe. Clearly, you would like to 848 00:46:54,479 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 3: be with your friends, and you should, but we would 849 00:46:56,879 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 3: like you on Christmas Day to do something with your 850 00:46:59,839 --> 00:47:01,679 Speaker 3: mom that you would do if you were there. You 851 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,679 Speaker 3: said you might take together or do things together, but 852 00:47:04,839 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 3: planet and ahead of time and logistics, but hang out 853 00:47:08,319 --> 00:47:08,679 Speaker 3: with her. 854 00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: A little bit, and little bit is the key here. 855 00:47:11,279 --> 00:47:13,879 Speaker 1: We want you to gauge your comfort zone that you're 856 00:47:13,919 --> 00:47:16,639 Speaker 1: not there to take care of her. You're there to 857 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,679 Speaker 1: celebrate with her, but it's not because she's so sad 858 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,999 Speaker 1: and lonely or you're so sad and lonely, because that 859 00:47:22,999 --> 00:47:25,439 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like a holiday at all. We want you 860 00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:28,679 Speaker 1: to be able to have fun together. And that might 861 00:47:28,879 --> 00:47:31,039 Speaker 1: be because I think maybe the dynamic might be a 862 00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:33,359 Speaker 1: little bit different. That's been set up and you're nodding, 863 00:47:33,399 --> 00:47:36,879 Speaker 1: so yes, we want you to say, Hey, mom, what 864 00:47:36,959 --> 00:47:39,199 Speaker 1: can we do for an hour on zoom? That would 865 00:47:39,199 --> 00:47:41,199 Speaker 1: be really fun? On Christmas? I'm not going to come 866 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,999 Speaker 1: this year because I'm not comfortable with COVID, but I 867 00:47:44,039 --> 00:47:45,679 Speaker 1: still want to do something fun with you. 868 00:47:46,399 --> 00:47:47,039 Speaker 4: What can we do? 869 00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: Do you want to bake something together for an hour? 870 00:47:49,879 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: Do you want to watch a movie together for an hour? 871 00:47:52,639 --> 00:47:54,319 Speaker 1: What do we want to do for about an hour 872 00:47:55,039 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: that would be really fun? So we can spend that 873 00:47:57,359 --> 00:47:58,399 Speaker 1: time together. 874 00:47:58,519 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 3: With an idea of turning it into a ritual that 875 00:48:00,839 --> 00:48:02,759 Speaker 3: you can do with her the next time you see her, 876 00:48:02,839 --> 00:48:05,079 Speaker 3: or you can do on zoom the next Christmas you're 877 00:48:05,079 --> 00:48:07,559 Speaker 3: not with her, But then you have this thing that 878 00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 3: you guys do does as it makes it a exciting 879 00:48:12,279 --> 00:48:15,999 Speaker 3: but it also really defines it as yours and we 880 00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:18,079 Speaker 3: want you to own these holidays. 881 00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:21,119 Speaker 1: And it also helps because no matter what else might 882 00:48:21,119 --> 00:48:24,439 Speaker 1: be going on in your life this year it's the 883 00:48:24,479 --> 00:48:27,879 Speaker 1: aftermath of a divorce and COVID, you still have these 884 00:48:27,959 --> 00:48:29,119 Speaker 1: rituals to depend on. 885 00:48:29,319 --> 00:48:33,119 Speaker 6: Every year, I've spent so much time. 886 00:48:34,919 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 5: Focused on what the holidays mean relative to my family 887 00:48:38,999 --> 00:48:43,679 Speaker 5: or to my marriage and the divorce, and it honestly 888 00:48:43,799 --> 00:48:47,519 Speaker 5: is like I have been dreading this season, and just 889 00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:49,439 Speaker 5: when you guys were saying this, it made me more 890 00:48:49,479 --> 00:48:52,039 Speaker 5: excited about it because it feels like I can see 891 00:48:52,959 --> 00:48:56,839 Speaker 5: people that I love and have something new that Christmas 892 00:48:56,879 --> 00:48:59,599 Speaker 5: won't always or the holidays won't always remind me of 893 00:48:59,879 --> 00:49:00,479 Speaker 5: my divorce. 894 00:49:01,279 --> 00:49:03,639 Speaker 1: A lot of people feel like when they haven't had 895 00:49:03,639 --> 00:49:06,199 Speaker 1: a good experience with the holidays in the past, they 896 00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: don't realize that as an adult, they get to choose. 897 00:49:09,999 --> 00:49:13,559 Speaker 1: They get to make choices about what would feel good 898 00:49:13,639 --> 00:49:16,919 Speaker 1: for them on the holidays, and that doesn't mean abandoning 899 00:49:16,959 --> 00:49:19,599 Speaker 1: the people that you love at the same time, so 900 00:49:20,039 --> 00:49:23,359 Speaker 1: everything that we're telling you is about you creating rituals 901 00:49:23,359 --> 00:49:25,959 Speaker 1: that feel good to you that also include the people 902 00:49:25,999 --> 00:49:26,639 Speaker 1: that you love. 903 00:49:26,559 --> 00:49:30,719 Speaker 3: Both, and it's both, and it's reclaiming because this is 904 00:49:30,759 --> 00:49:33,359 Speaker 3: what you're doing now in your own life. You're reclaiming 905 00:49:33,399 --> 00:49:37,319 Speaker 3: your sense of self, You're reclaiming your emotions, you're reclaiming Hanakh, 906 00:49:37,359 --> 00:49:38,479 Speaker 3: and you're reclaiming Christmas. 907 00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:40,559 Speaker 4: There is one other. 908 00:49:40,479 --> 00:49:44,559 Speaker 3: Aspect that we want to add. There's one person that 909 00:49:44,839 --> 00:49:49,119 Speaker 3: is not invited to hannakhah all Christmas, and that's Rebecca. 910 00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:53,599 Speaker 3: Despite the fact that she's not invited, she might show 911 00:49:53,679 --> 00:49:55,479 Speaker 3: up in your thoughts. She will not. 912 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,119 Speaker 7: Here's what we know when you ruminate about something, and 913 00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:03,839 Speaker 7: this would be a rumination if she pops into your thoughts, 914 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,359 Speaker 7: is that if you spend two or three minutes at 915 00:50:07,439 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 7: most focused cognitively, but concentrated on another task, it kind 916 00:50:13,279 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 7: of resets the brain in a way that then when 917 00:50:15,839 --> 00:50:18,719 Speaker 7: you go back, you don't have that intrusive thought of Rebecca. 918 00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:20,879 Speaker 7: And the kinds of tasks at work, the ones that 919 00:50:20,919 --> 00:50:24,999 Speaker 7: require concentration, memory tasks like can I name the list 920 00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:27,079 Speaker 7: of songs in a playlist? Or do I remember the 921 00:50:27,159 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 7: order of pictures on your wall? Stuff like that, just 922 00:50:30,279 --> 00:50:32,519 Speaker 7: it requires concentration for two or three minutes. It can 923 00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:34,079 Speaker 7: be a cross word, but two or tre minutes is 924 00:50:34,199 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 7: enough to get that impulse out. And so if Rebecca 925 00:50:37,359 --> 00:50:40,959 Speaker 7: comes uninvited, just refocus on the people who are invited. 926 00:50:41,479 --> 00:50:43,999 Speaker 7: For Hanukah and for Christmas. We want you to not 927 00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:46,879 Speaker 7: talk about her to the people you're around. It's a 928 00:50:46,919 --> 00:50:49,359 Speaker 7: vacation for you, it's a vacation for them. It is 929 00:50:49,439 --> 00:50:52,599 Speaker 7: a refocusing on the holidays and what that season has 930 00:50:52,639 --> 00:50:52,999 Speaker 7: to bring. 931 00:50:53,999 --> 00:50:57,559 Speaker 1: And this is different from Rebecca saying don't feel your feelings. 932 00:50:57,599 --> 00:51:00,079 Speaker 1: You're not allowed to have your feelings. What we're saying 933 00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:02,439 Speaker 1: to you is we want you to give yourself the 934 00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:06,879 Speaker 1: gift of a break from Rebecca on these holidays. And 935 00:51:06,919 --> 00:51:11,359 Speaker 1: we understand that Rebecca will show up, but we want 936 00:51:11,399 --> 00:51:14,039 Speaker 1: you to make sure that you keep giving yourself that 937 00:51:14,159 --> 00:51:16,959 Speaker 1: gift of Wait a minute, I am here with these 938 00:51:17,039 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 1: people that I love, who love me. This feels really good. 939 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:25,679 Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin it for myself. How does 940 00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:26,559 Speaker 1: that all sound to you? 941 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:28,039 Speaker 4: It sounds great? 942 00:51:28,999 --> 00:51:30,959 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we look forward to doing that from you. 943 00:51:37,479 --> 00:51:40,599 Speaker 3: I think part of the challenge for Shannon is going 944 00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:42,679 Speaker 3: to be that she's still very much in a healing 945 00:51:43,519 --> 00:51:47,759 Speaker 3: process and in that sense, it's such an opportunity because 946 00:51:47,799 --> 00:51:51,119 Speaker 3: taking control and creating this reality of a holiday in 947 00:51:51,159 --> 00:51:53,799 Speaker 3: a way that suits her could be therapeutic in a 948 00:51:53,799 --> 00:51:56,359 Speaker 3: more general way than just the holiday. Can really help 949 00:51:56,399 --> 00:51:59,279 Speaker 3: her start to get in touch with her needs, her priorities, 950 00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:02,079 Speaker 3: and having this balance of taking care of other people's 951 00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:04,039 Speaker 3: needs while not losing sight of her. 952 00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:09,119 Speaker 1: So many times people forget that when they're adults, they 953 00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:11,959 Speaker 1: have choices. In her mind, it was very much either 954 00:52:11,999 --> 00:52:14,919 Speaker 1: I get my needs met or I meet somebody else's needs. 955 00:52:14,959 --> 00:52:17,079 Speaker 1: But there was no middle ground. And I think that 956 00:52:17,159 --> 00:52:19,799 Speaker 1: this will help her to rebalance that, and it's really 957 00:52:19,799 --> 00:52:23,079 Speaker 1: good practice for her for whatever happens in her next relationship, 958 00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:25,199 Speaker 1: and it's also really good practice for her for the 959 00:52:25,199 --> 00:52:29,999 Speaker 1: holidays going forward, no matter what situation she's in. Absolutely, 960 00:52:36,879 --> 00:52:39,839 Speaker 1: you're listening to Dear Therapists from My Heart Radio. We'll 961 00:52:39,839 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: be back after a quick break. So after we gave 962 00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,359 Speaker 1: the advice to Shannon, we got an email from her 963 00:52:58,039 --> 00:53:02,119 Speaker 1: and Mike, our producer, is going to share it with 964 00:53:02,199 --> 00:53:04,759 Speaker 1: all of you. Hey, Mike, can you read the email 965 00:53:04,759 --> 00:53:05,319 Speaker 1: from Shannon? 966 00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:08,879 Speaker 8: Thank you? Laurie, Yes, I can, Dear Lauri and Guy, 967 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 8: thank you so so much for the time that you 968 00:53:11,759 --> 00:53:15,039 Speaker 8: spent with me. Guy, you said that you didn't think 969 00:53:15,079 --> 00:53:17,759 Speaker 8: I've fully come to understand the severity of what I 970 00:53:17,799 --> 00:53:21,159 Speaker 8: went through. I have struggled immensely with a massive amount 971 00:53:21,159 --> 00:53:23,519 Speaker 8: of doubt over the last year. The truth is, I 972 00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:26,359 Speaker 8: was really scared of her for a really long time. 973 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,479 Speaker 8: Those few years after we got married got really bad. 974 00:53:31,039 --> 00:53:33,479 Speaker 8: She grabbed my arm while screaming at me. She told 975 00:53:33,559 --> 00:53:36,759 Speaker 8: me divorce is in my DNA, that I would be 976 00:53:36,799 --> 00:53:39,559 Speaker 8: incapable of taking care of a sick child, that she 977 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,039 Speaker 8: hates everything about me, that she isn't attracted to me 978 00:53:43,119 --> 00:53:47,239 Speaker 8: at all anymore. She started sleeping with people and wouldn't 979 00:53:47,319 --> 00:53:49,359 Speaker 8: tell me where she was at night or who she 980 00:53:49,479 --> 00:53:53,199 Speaker 8: was with. And all the while she was drinking, smoking, 981 00:53:53,359 --> 00:53:56,559 Speaker 8: binging and purging, cutting herself and saying that she didn't 982 00:53:56,599 --> 00:54:00,319 Speaker 8: want to be alive. She was in massive amounts of 983 00:54:00,359 --> 00:54:02,519 Speaker 8: credit card debt, and I didn't have any of my 984 00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:05,759 Speaker 8: own savings anymore because we used it when she quit 985 00:54:05,799 --> 00:54:08,319 Speaker 8: her job and couldn't find another one for six months. 986 00:54:08,879 --> 00:54:12,439 Speaker 8: I was terrified of her and terrified for her all 987 00:54:12,479 --> 00:54:15,399 Speaker 8: at the same time. Thank you both so so much 988 00:54:15,639 --> 00:54:17,759 Speaker 8: for helping me to start to see that I need 989 00:54:17,799 --> 00:54:21,599 Speaker 8: to face what happened more honestly, all the best she 990 00:54:21,679 --> 00:54:21,959 Speaker 8: had it. 991 00:54:22,559 --> 00:54:24,679 Speaker 3: I'm not surprised by what Channon wrote, because it did 992 00:54:24,679 --> 00:54:28,079 Speaker 3: seem that things were worse and that she was idealizing 993 00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:30,279 Speaker 3: a little bit as if there were no problems whatsoever 994 00:54:30,319 --> 00:54:33,719 Speaker 3: before the marriage and then suddenly everything turned terrible right after. 995 00:54:33,799 --> 00:54:35,599 Speaker 3: It's usually not that sudden. 996 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's common when people start to 997 00:54:38,639 --> 00:54:43,119 Speaker 1: really face the reality of how challenging a relationship was 998 00:54:43,799 --> 00:54:46,679 Speaker 1: that because they're still grieving, there is still a loss 999 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,319 Speaker 1: for them that they're not really ready to look at 1000 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,519 Speaker 1: how bad it was because they think, well, why would 1001 00:54:51,559 --> 00:54:54,199 Speaker 1: I have stayed that long? Seven years? And so I 1002 00:54:54,199 --> 00:54:58,519 Speaker 1: think there's some shame sometimes in really reckoning with, Wow, 1003 00:54:58,599 --> 00:55:01,919 Speaker 1: what was I doing in this relationship for so long? 1004 00:55:02,279 --> 00:55:04,159 Speaker 1: And that's some work that I think she's going to 1005 00:55:04,199 --> 00:55:05,919 Speaker 1: have to do. But let's hear what she had to say. 1006 00:55:06,559 --> 00:55:08,479 Speaker 3: Yes, that's going to be very interesting now to hear 1007 00:55:08,519 --> 00:55:09,119 Speaker 3: her voicemail. 1008 00:55:10,319 --> 00:55:12,439 Speaker 6: Hey, Lauri and Guy, I'm just calling to give you 1009 00:55:12,479 --> 00:55:13,239 Speaker 6: a quick update. 1010 00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:15,839 Speaker 5: I have been working really hard to set up all 1011 00:55:15,879 --> 00:55:18,959 Speaker 5: of my rituals and it's actually been really fun. I 1012 00:55:19,039 --> 00:55:21,719 Speaker 5: set up for Hanukkah zoom calls with all of my 1013 00:55:21,799 --> 00:55:24,079 Speaker 5: family and friends, my dad the first night, my brother 1014 00:55:24,119 --> 00:55:26,679 Speaker 5: the second night, and then a lot. 1015 00:55:26,519 --> 00:55:27,199 Speaker 6: Of my friends. 1016 00:55:27,199 --> 00:55:30,079 Speaker 5: Everybody wanted to join, so doing a lot of zoom 1017 00:55:30,079 --> 00:55:32,719 Speaker 5: calls the other nights of Honika. And as part of that, 1018 00:55:32,839 --> 00:55:36,439 Speaker 5: in building a new ritual for myself, I'm actually, because 1019 00:55:36,439 --> 00:55:37,479 Speaker 5: of how much I love. 1020 00:55:37,359 --> 00:55:39,239 Speaker 6: To host people, I'm going to host. 1021 00:55:38,999 --> 00:55:42,319 Speaker 5: A virtual holiday party where I'm sending out in advance 1022 00:55:42,439 --> 00:55:45,119 Speaker 5: little care packages to all of my people, and then 1023 00:55:45,159 --> 00:55:47,439 Speaker 5: we're going to actually do some fun activities together over 1024 00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:50,399 Speaker 5: zoom and in hopes that when we are after this 1025 00:55:50,519 --> 00:55:52,479 Speaker 5: COVID time period, we'll be able to do it all 1026 00:55:52,519 --> 00:55:53,279 Speaker 5: together in person. 1027 00:55:53,319 --> 00:55:55,439 Speaker 6: Every year. My mom and I are going. 1028 00:55:55,359 --> 00:55:58,319 Speaker 5: To be baking Christmas cookies together on Christmas Day like 1029 00:55:58,359 --> 00:56:01,519 Speaker 5: we usually do, and she was totally understanding and very 1030 00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:03,919 Speaker 5: supportive of me not coming because of COVID this year, 1031 00:56:03,959 --> 00:56:06,599 Speaker 5: so I'm excited about that. And then I've been working 1032 00:56:06,679 --> 00:56:09,879 Speaker 5: really hard to disinvite my ex from my mind and 1033 00:56:09,919 --> 00:56:12,879 Speaker 5: give myself, like you said, the gift of emotional space. 1034 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,799 Speaker 5: It's been really challenging, but really good. I think it's 1035 00:56:15,799 --> 00:56:18,359 Speaker 5: made me realize how much those thoughts have really wormed 1036 00:56:18,359 --> 00:56:21,039 Speaker 5: their way into my brain, and how much I have 1037 00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:24,599 Speaker 5: power to actually focus on something else and, like you said, 1038 00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:25,439 Speaker 5: reset my brain. 1039 00:56:25,839 --> 00:56:27,319 Speaker 6: I also just want to say. 1040 00:56:27,279 --> 00:56:29,759 Speaker 5: How grateful I feel, because I think you made me 1041 00:56:29,839 --> 00:56:32,999 Speaker 5: realize how much I need to confront very honestly my 1042 00:56:33,119 --> 00:56:35,639 Speaker 5: experience and what I went through. I think I've been 1043 00:56:35,639 --> 00:56:40,999 Speaker 5: really hesitant to confront the painful parts of the abuse 1044 00:56:41,079 --> 00:56:44,079 Speaker 5: that happened in the marriage, and it's made me really 1045 00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:47,599 Speaker 5: committed in therapy in particular to going deeper into that 1046 00:56:47,639 --> 00:56:50,479 Speaker 5: and really processing what happened so that I can move forward, 1047 00:56:50,599 --> 00:56:53,559 Speaker 5: and really, more importantly also what it was that made 1048 00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:55,599 Speaker 5: me stay for so long, and how I can build 1049 00:56:55,639 --> 00:56:59,119 Speaker 5: a stronger sense of myself so that I can focus 1050 00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:02,119 Speaker 5: on my needs in future relationships and not lose them 1051 00:57:02,879 --> 00:57:03,439 Speaker 5: to others. 1052 00:57:04,039 --> 00:57:06,359 Speaker 6: So thank you so much. I'm so excited, not just 1053 00:57:06,359 --> 00:57:06,639 Speaker 6: for the. 1054 00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:10,399 Speaker 5: Holidays, but honestly for just living a healthier life that 1055 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:14,399 Speaker 5: is much more aligned to what I need and at 1056 00:57:14,399 --> 00:57:16,919 Speaker 5: the same time being able to bring all of my 1057 00:57:16,999 --> 00:57:18,679 Speaker 5: people into that in the future. 1058 00:57:18,759 --> 00:57:20,799 Speaker 6: So thank you again and happy holidays. 1059 00:57:21,119 --> 00:57:25,759 Speaker 1: So often people like Shannon who are going through something 1060 00:57:25,759 --> 00:57:30,599 Speaker 1: really difficult, like this very difficult divorce, dread the holidays. 1061 00:57:31,159 --> 00:57:34,999 Speaker 1: And what I loved about what happened with her was 1062 00:57:35,079 --> 00:57:40,599 Speaker 1: that I heard so much joy and excitement and relief 1063 00:57:40,879 --> 00:57:44,719 Speaker 1: and looking forward to the future in her voice. So 1064 00:57:44,759 --> 00:57:47,079 Speaker 1: she went from this is going to be horrible. I 1065 00:57:47,079 --> 00:57:50,319 Speaker 1: grew up with divorced parents. The holidays were always very stressful. 1066 00:57:50,399 --> 00:57:53,319 Speaker 1: Now I'm going through my own divorce. It's very sad, 1067 00:57:53,399 --> 00:58:00,519 Speaker 1: I'm grieving, And instead she ended up with, I'm having 1068 00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:04,679 Speaker 1: the most connected holiday season on my terms that I've 1069 00:58:04,719 --> 00:58:06,799 Speaker 1: ever had in my entire life. 1070 00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:11,039 Speaker 3: I completely agree. The joy in her voice was so 1071 00:58:11,199 --> 00:58:15,999 Speaker 3: pronounced it warmed my heart. And such a switch from 1072 00:58:16,159 --> 00:58:18,719 Speaker 3: how she was thinking about these holidays to how she's 1073 00:58:18,759 --> 00:58:22,359 Speaker 3: thinking about them now, truly one hundred and eighty degree 1074 00:58:22,879 --> 00:58:26,719 Speaker 3: switch of empowerment, of taking control, of being proactive, of 1075 00:58:26,759 --> 00:58:28,639 Speaker 3: doing it her way in a way that will make 1076 00:58:28,679 --> 00:58:32,359 Speaker 3: her happy. And the only lament I have is that 1077 00:58:32,599 --> 00:58:35,079 Speaker 3: eight days of Hunuka, there are twelve days of Christmas. 1078 00:58:35,519 --> 00:58:37,519 Speaker 3: She's organized so much she probably needs a few more 1079 00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:40,119 Speaker 3: days because those might not be enough. But that's a 1080 00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:40,999 Speaker 3: good problem to have. 1081 00:58:41,719 --> 00:58:44,279 Speaker 1: I really like too, that she has come to a 1082 00:58:44,279 --> 00:58:45,959 Speaker 1: place where she said, wait, I have to do some 1083 00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:48,999 Speaker 1: work on myself, and I need to focus on that 1084 00:58:49,199 --> 00:58:52,399 Speaker 1: so that I can have different kinds of relationships going forward, 1085 00:58:52,759 --> 00:58:55,039 Speaker 1: because that is a really important piece of this too. 1086 00:58:55,319 --> 00:58:57,959 Speaker 1: And I think that sense of being trapped, being trapped 1087 00:58:58,279 --> 00:59:02,279 Speaker 1: as a child between the two houses, being trapped in 1088 00:59:02,319 --> 00:59:05,359 Speaker 1: this relationship, that was a perception that she had as 1089 00:59:05,359 --> 00:59:07,799 Speaker 1: an adult that wasn't true. She could have left any time, 1090 00:59:08,319 --> 00:59:10,519 Speaker 1: and I think she felt around the holidays too, and 1091 00:59:10,559 --> 00:59:13,999 Speaker 1: now I'm going to have this horrible holiday season. And 1092 00:59:14,039 --> 00:59:17,959 Speaker 1: then once we had this conversation with her, she started 1093 00:59:17,959 --> 00:59:19,959 Speaker 1: to realize, maybe I'm not as trapped as I think 1094 00:59:19,999 --> 00:59:23,479 Speaker 1: I am. And she sprung herself from jail, and so 1095 00:59:23,519 --> 00:59:25,759 Speaker 1: she's doing this reckoning with herself. And I think the 1096 00:59:25,759 --> 00:59:28,639 Speaker 1: holidays bring up a lot of reckoning for lots of people, 1097 00:59:29,399 --> 00:59:31,359 Speaker 1: but I think it can be a really positive reckoning 1098 00:59:31,399 --> 00:59:33,679 Speaker 1: like it was for Shannon. And I hope that people 1099 00:59:33,719 --> 00:59:37,759 Speaker 1: listening to this will be able to take something from 1100 00:59:37,759 --> 00:59:40,039 Speaker 1: it so that they can do something similar to what 1101 00:59:40,039 --> 00:59:40,679 Speaker 1: Shannon did. 1102 00:59:41,439 --> 00:59:44,759 Speaker 3: She very clearly is setting up rituals, and she used 1103 00:59:44,759 --> 00:59:47,959 Speaker 3: that word, and that's what makes a holiday feel like holiday. 1104 00:59:47,999 --> 00:59:50,679 Speaker 3: The rituals and that's something we can all do at 1105 00:59:50,759 --> 00:59:53,679 Speaker 3: any point on any holiday and in a ritual that's 1106 00:59:53,759 --> 00:59:56,879 Speaker 3: meaningful to us that we would really enjoy continuing going forward. 1107 00:59:57,719 --> 01:00:00,279 Speaker 1: And they weren't just rituals, but there were rituals of connection. 1108 01:00:00,519 --> 01:00:03,279 Speaker 1: When people really put in the work to figure out 1109 01:00:03,319 --> 01:00:06,479 Speaker 1: what those will be, they find that they can create 1110 01:00:06,519 --> 01:00:12,559 Speaker 1: those in their own lives too. 1111 01:00:12,959 --> 01:00:16,239 Speaker 3: Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice 1112 01:00:16,279 --> 01:00:18,679 Speaker 3: from the podcast in your own life, send us a 1113 01:00:18,759 --> 01:00:22,679 Speaker 3: quick voice memo to Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and 1114 01:00:22,679 --> 01:00:24,799 Speaker 3: tell us about it. We may include it in a 1115 01:00:24,799 --> 01:00:25,399 Speaker 3: future show. 1116 01:00:25,559 --> 01:00:28,399 Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying our podcast each week, please help 1117 01:00:28,399 --> 01:00:31,519 Speaker 1: support Dear Therapists. You can tell your friends about it, 1118 01:00:31,599 --> 01:00:33,599 Speaker 1: and we'd be so grateful if you leave us a 1119 01:00:33,639 --> 01:00:37,199 Speaker 1: five star review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews help people 1120 01:00:37,239 --> 01:00:40,479 Speaker 1: find the show. You can follow us both online. I'm 1121 01:00:40,519 --> 01:00:43,119 Speaker 1: at Lorigottlieb dot com and you can follow me on 1122 01:00:43,159 --> 01:00:49,079 Speaker 1: Twitter at Lorigottlieb one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author. 1123 01:00:48,919 --> 01:00:52,159 Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and 1124 01:00:52,239 --> 01:00:56,039 Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma, you'd 1125 01:00:56,039 --> 01:00:58,799 Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, Email us 1126 01:00:58,919 --> 01:01:01,839 Speaker 3: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com. 1127 01:01:02,119 --> 01:01:06,399 Speaker 1: Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by 1128 01:01:06,439 --> 01:01:11,079 Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefit and to our podcasts. 1129 01:01:11,079 --> 01:01:15,559 Speaker 1: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. Next Week, a young woman struggles 1130 01:01:15,599 --> 01:01:17,759 Speaker 1: to find a balance between taking care of her own 1131 01:01:17,799 --> 01:01:21,039 Speaker 1: needs and caring for her husband, whose chronic illness is 1132 01:01:21,079 --> 01:01:22,679 Speaker 1: taking a toll on their marriage. 1133 01:01:22,759 --> 01:01:25,559 Speaker 9: We got married, we were in this together. I'm definitely 1134 01:01:25,639 --> 01:01:29,039 Speaker 9: scared that our marriage could fall apart. I just don't 1135 01:01:29,079 --> 01:01:32,439 Speaker 9: know what to do without making it like this is 1136 01:01:32,479 --> 01:01:33,119 Speaker 9: his problem. 1137 01:01:33,439 --> 01:01:39,919 Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio