Speaker 1: M hmm. What molesting children the devil? What is that
Speaker 1: a bad way to open a show, Sophie, Well, no,
Speaker 1: that's the only take. Try. Yeah, well I said it
Speaker 1: was the Devil. I mean, no one likes the Devil
Speaker 1: except for people who like the Devil. But this is
Speaker 1: behind the Bastards, a podcast that will very soon be canceled. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm Robert Evans, and uh I'm back with with
Speaker 1: h Jacob Hanrahand. Your full name isn't Jacob, does it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I just called you Jacob. Well that's what I'm calling
Speaker 1: you forever now, Jake. That yeah, I have that power.
Speaker 1: I am legally a reverend doctor. Both reference and doctors
Speaker 1: get to name things, Sophie. The state of New Jersey says, so, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: the state of New Jersey has no say in somebody
Speaker 1: who doesn't live in America. I think in New Jersey's
Speaker 1: jurisdiction does in fact go across the Atlantic. It is
Speaker 1: a coastal city. So back to the satanic panic, Jake,
Speaker 1: how you doing? How you're holding up emotionally as we
Speaker 1: tear in this? It's so good. Yeah, it's the worst.
Speaker 1: So before we get into our main subject for the day,
Speaker 1: which is the McMartin preschool trial. We're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: some other wild ass satanic panic bullshit that was kicking
Speaker 1: off in the late seventies. And this this involves a
Speaker 1: little game you might have played called Dungeons and Dragons.
Speaker 1: You're played d DJ, which people play it. It looks
Speaker 1: really really cool. It's rules like yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: played that as a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're doing
Speaker 1: Dungeon Dragons once and I just went in and was like, wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fucking a great game. Great thing for kids. Also
Speaker 1: really good for kids, like teaches you storytelling, teaches you
Speaker 1: like a lot of I learned a lot about how
Speaker 1: to do journalism well by just like the way that
Speaker 1: you put together wis and stuff. But people find interesting
Speaker 1: it's a great game. Uh, A lot of people disagreed
Speaker 1: with that in the nineteen seventies. So in nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 1: when the game is about five years old, a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old named James Dallas Egbert the Third vanished from
Speaker 1: the steam tunnels under his school, which is where he
Speaker 1: and his friends played what honestly sounds like a pretty
Speaker 1: righteous game of D and D. That sounds so cool. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that sounds cool as hell. His family hired a private
Speaker 1: eye to track him down, and that guy publicly theorized
Speaker 1: that James's lef of Dungeons and Dragons contributed to his disappearance. Uh,
Speaker 1: this was not true, but the press ran wild with it,
Speaker 1: and while James was eventually found, he committed suicide shortly thereafter.
Speaker 1: He was just very like, he chronically depressed kid, like,
Speaker 1: a very sad story, nothing to do with D and D,
Speaker 1: which was probably one of the few bright spots in
Speaker 1: his life. Yeah, but obviously it was all blamed on
Speaker 1: the game. In nineteen eighty one, the book Mazes and
Speaker 1: Monsters was published on the case, and it was just nonsense.
Speaker 1: It was followed shortly after by the nineteen eighty two
Speaker 1: film adaptation starring Tom Hanks, which is a fucking if
Speaker 1: you want to watch a terrible movie about how dn
Speaker 1: D is the devil, Oh there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Mazes and fucking Monsters. So the private detective, who detective
Speaker 1: who started all this, published his own book, The Dungeon Master,
Speaker 1: where he clarified that D and D had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with James's disappearance or suicide, which he instead again
Speaker 1: blamed on chronic depression, but by that point it was
Speaker 1: way too late. In two, another kid named Irving Pulling
Speaker 1: committed suicide since he had played in a school supervised
Speaker 1: D and D game. His mother, Patricia, sued the school
Speaker 1: in t s R. Dn d's publisher, blaming them for
Speaker 1: her son's death because quote, he had received a curse
Speaker 1: during a game session. Oh yeah, yeah, and it's it
Speaker 1: is this like, you know, the kind of people who
Speaker 1: played D and D in the nineteen fucking eighties were
Speaker 1: big old nerds. Right nowadays it's gotten to be more mainstream,
Speaker 1: but like, you're a pretty big nerd in the eighties
Speaker 1: if you're playing D and D and you're probably bullied
Speaker 1: to fucking back, right, you probably get kicked out of
Speaker 1: you every day. You know. It was always like when
Speaker 1: I watched old American films, it was like the nerds
Speaker 1: would always be doing like a version of Yeah. So obviously,
Speaker 1: like these kids who probably had a lot of ship,
Speaker 1: that was tough in their lives because it's hard to
Speaker 1: be a kid, and harder still if you're a kid
Speaker 1: who gets the ship kicked out of them by bullies,
Speaker 1: um killed themselves and instead of looking into anything else.
Speaker 1: They're like, well, they played D and D. That must
Speaker 1: have been it, right, Yeah, it's going to be that.
Speaker 1: Patricia Pulling, Irving's mom, formed an advocacy group called Bothered
Speaker 1: about Dungeons and Dragons or Bad and dedicated to securing
Speaker 1: government Yeah, dedicated to securing government regulation of role playing games.
Speaker 1: A sentence that I could not type without laughing and
Speaker 1: can't read without laughing, Like the government needs to regulate RPGs.
Speaker 1: It's very funny, um and like the Christian right being
Speaker 1: what it is. You know, there was there were people
Speaker 1: in the country who both supported the regulation of RPGs
Speaker 1: role playing games, and also thought civilian should be able
Speaker 1: to own rocket propelled grenades the other kind of art
Speaker 1: scheme where has just had a bit of therapy, Like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fucking great. So Pulling tried to sue TSR over
Speaker 1: her son's death, but that didn't work because obviously there
Speaker 1: was nothing to any of her claims. So instead she
Speaker 1: dedicated herself to pumping out propaganda claiming that D and
Speaker 1: D encouraged devil worship and suicide. Her pamphlets described D
Speaker 1: and D as a fantasy role playing game which uses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex, perversion, homosexuality, prostitutions,
Speaker 1: satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromantics, divination,
Speaker 1: and other teachings. Wow. Okay, well it sounds like cooler
Speaker 1: game than it was actually. Um yeah. One of the
Speaker 1: things that's weird about this to me is like the
Speaker 1: guy I played D and D with when I was
Speaker 1: a kid was like a fucking young Earth creationist, was
Speaker 1: a great dungeon master and also believing was six thousand
Speaker 1: years old. Um So, not every Christian had this attitude
Speaker 1: about D and D, but it was real common on
Speaker 1: the Christian right for a while. I actually found the
Speaker 1: cover art for one of the books that Bad put out,
Speaker 1: and it's pretty fucking wild. The jacket quote, which is
Speaker 1: purportedly from some some young fan of D and D,
Speaker 1: was the more I play D and D, the more
Speaker 1: I want to get away from the world. And you know,
Speaker 1: you might argue that this says more about the world
Speaker 1: that these kids were growing up in during the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 1: The Dungeons and Dragons yeah, your life sucks. Your kid
Speaker 1: pretend to be something that's not a kid that gets
Speaker 1: bullied all the time, right, Yeah, of course you're going
Speaker 1: to want to prefer that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the
Speaker 1: book promises witchcraft, suicide, and violence inside and is marketed
Speaker 1: towards educators, librarians, pastors, police and parents. And despite being
Speaker 1: wrong about everything, Patricia was terrifyingly influential in both Christian
Speaker 1: media and among law and for smith. Her books on
Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons were so popular with evangelical pastors in
Speaker 1: the US and in Australia, where she played a role
Speaker 1: in propaganda distributed by the Australian Federation of Decency, which
Speaker 1: is I guess a thing, and you know with a
Speaker 1: name like Federation of Decency, that you're the worst people
Speaker 1: in the country, right basically, like yeah, like anything we
Speaker 1: don't like is devil. Yeah yeah, yeah exactly. So Patricia
Speaker 1: Polling eventually got a p I S license and became
Speaker 1: a consultant for law enforcement on a number of cases,
Speaker 1: all of which the police lost. Yeah. She advised police
Speaker 1: officers to open interrogations of teenagers with the question have
Speaker 1: you read the Necronomicon or are you familiar with it? Fictional? Great,
Speaker 1: she thought, like, h Lovecraft was a professor. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: what she did? Someone after decades after Lovecraft def published
Speaker 1: a book called The Necronomicon to kind of cash in
Speaker 1: on the fact that number one. Yeah, well it was.
Speaker 1: It wasn't even a real book. No, it was like
Speaker 1: so at one point, she told the news a newspaper
Speaker 1: reporter that eight percent of Richmond, Virginia was Satanist, a
Speaker 1: figure she'd arrived at by calculating that four percent of
Speaker 1: teens and four percent of adults were devil worshippers. And
Speaker 1: the reporter pointed out, like, well, that's actually just four
Speaker 1: percent of the population. If it's it's four percent of
Speaker 1: teens and four percent of adults, that's four percent of people.
Speaker 1: And she told them that it didn't matter that her
Speaker 1: math was wrong because her numbers were conservative. Just amazing.
Speaker 1: That kind of attitude hasn't changed. No, right wing, No,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, we know what we mean. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I feel that it's true. So like the
Speaker 1: fact that factually I'm just making ship up is fine. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the fact that Patricia Poland was clearly incompetent and
Speaker 1: wrong about everything and was still treated as a recognized
Speaker 1: expert by law enforcement for years. Shou'd key you in
Speaker 1: on a couple of things. One, cops generally aren't very
Speaker 1: good at their job, and two, in nineteen eighties, it
Speaker 1: was very easy to become an expert on Satanism as
Speaker 1: long as you were good at scaring suburban moms and cops.
Speaker 1: So all of this brings me to the centerpiece of
Speaker 1: our story today, the McMartin preschool trial. Now, this is
Speaker 1: still again the longest and most expensive trial in US history,
Speaker 1: and I would contend it's also the very, very dumbest.
Speaker 1: It started thanks to a young mother in distress named
Speaker 1: Judy Johnson, and her story is about as heartbreaking as
Speaker 1: it gets. Um, she's kind of the villain of this story,
Speaker 1: but like it's fun. She's a bad situation. This lady,
Speaker 1: she'd gotten into a bad marriage and she and her
Speaker 1: husband only stuck together because they had a kid. And
Speaker 1: then that child, their first child, got diagnosed with an
Speaker 1: inoperable brain tumor at age eight, which would like just
Speaker 1: destroy any parent, right, Like that's just gonna ruin you,
Speaker 1: no matter who you are. And she was not a
Speaker 1: superstable person. Before this happened, um doctors were not able
Speaker 1: to help him, and so she developed an a rational
Speaker 1: but understandable hatred of doctors in medicine, right, like, it's
Speaker 1: not fair, But also like your kids, you're gonna have
Speaker 1: so much anger over this that you're gonna blame somebody, right, Like,
Speaker 1: you can't expect someone circumstance, no one would, uh, And
Speaker 1: like a lot of people in this situation, Judy sought
Speaker 1: refuge in religion. She carried a Bible with her everywhere
Speaker 1: and was a very very hardcore fundamentalist and generally the
Speaker 1: kind of fundamentalist you would expect to be worried about Satanism. Now,
Speaker 1: you combine that with the fact that she was kind
Speaker 1: of out of her mind with grief over a dying
Speaker 1: child and the fact that her relationship with her husband imploded,
Speaker 1: and you probably won't be entirely surprised at what she
Speaker 1: does next, especially since it later came out she had
Speaker 1: a series of schizophrenic breaks. So it also turns out
Speaker 1: she's like, it's a horrible like she she's the villain,
Speaker 1: and that she's responsible for the evil of this story.
Speaker 1: You can't she's not morally responsible for any of her acts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's yeah, she had a very bad hand and
Speaker 1: as a result she creates as a result of that
Speaker 1: and this cultural panic over Satanism and all of these
Speaker 1: different legal structures that have been set up in our society,
Speaker 1: she's able to do tremendous harm. And it's just a
Speaker 1: horrible fucking story. Um. So Judy had another child, Matthew, um,
Speaker 1: and he was like two years old. I think when
Speaker 1: they moved, she and her husband moved to southern California. Um.
Speaker 1: And they moved to Manhattan Beach, which is like a
Speaker 1: very nice part of Southern California's basically Santa Monica. It's
Speaker 1: like right on the coast. It's a fucking beautiful part
Speaker 1: of the world. There's no parking, but there was back then. Um,
Speaker 1: it was a paradise filled with places for people to
Speaker 1: put cars in those days. Uh. And it had a
Speaker 1: pre school called the McMartin Pre School, which was considered
Speaker 1: the very best preschool in Manhattan Beach. Um. And like
Speaker 1: so as the very nice preschool in Manhattan Beach, every
Speaker 1: parent and one of their kids in there. Um. And
Speaker 1: so Judy wanted her son, Matthew to be there. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: Judy was a bit of a mess, and she failed
Speaker 1: to enroll him before the school was full for that session.
Speaker 1: Instead of finding another school, she dropped her two year
Speaker 1: world child off off outside the school with a note
Speaker 1: in his backpack that said, like you have to take him, basically,
Speaker 1: like here's his name, and like deal with it. Yeah. Again,
Speaker 1: she's not making very rational decisions here because she's profoundly ill. Um.
Speaker 1: McMartin Preschool was founded by Virginia McMartin, who was in
Speaker 1: I think her sixties at this point. Uh, And Virginia
Speaker 1: was like, I don't think it's a great idea to
Speaker 1: allow this kid here that his mom has basically trying
Speaker 1: to force him on the school seems kind of sucked up.
Speaker 1: But Virginia's daughter, Peggy, was more sympathetic and assumed that
Speaker 1: a mom who would do something like this was had
Speaker 1: to be going through some ship and that they should
Speaker 1: help her out because these are very nice people. Um.
Speaker 1: So they take Matthew in and he attends class for
Speaker 1: a few months, and this proved to be a horrible
Speaker 1: mistake because by this point Judy was not just out
Speaker 1: of her mind with grief, she was also a hardcore
Speaker 1: alcoholic and having schizophrenic episodes. So pretty bad situation, Jake, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from that book, Satan's Silence. That summer,
Speaker 1: Judy Johnson became preoccupied with the condition of her younger
Speaker 1: son's anus. In June, she would later tell the authorities.
Speaker 1: Matthew come plained that it hurt when he made a
Speaker 1: bowel movement. In July, she took him to a nearby
Speaker 1: hospital emergency room, where she told the doctor that her
Speaker 1: son's anus was itchy and that she thought she had
Speaker 1: given him her vaginal infection. The doctor did not examine Matthew,
Speaker 1: but he did treat Judy for vagenitis. A few weeks
Speaker 1: later did he mentioned to her brother that Matthew's anis
Speaker 1: was inflamed. She began making frequent inspections of her son's
Speaker 1: rectal area. So a few things are going on here.
Speaker 1: One is that again not a great, not a very
Speaker 1: healthy household. This kid has bad hygiene, right uh. Also,
Speaker 1: his mom is now daily poking and prodding his rectum
Speaker 1: in order to check it, and that irritates it. And
Speaker 1: she becomes convinced that the irritation that she is causing
Speaker 1: is the is the result of sexual abuse, and she
Speaker 1: grows convinced that this is because Matthew's teacher, a guy
Speaker 1: named Ray Bucky, had sodomized her child repeatedly over the
Speaker 1: course of the summer. Now, this is untrue, and one
Speaker 1: of the reasons it's definitely untrue is that number one,
Speaker 1: two year olds are very rarely sexually assaulted. Number two,
Speaker 1: wind grown men penetrate to your children with their penises.
Speaker 1: It either kills or severely injures the child. It causes
Speaker 1: horrible injury, right, Like it's a terrible Yeah. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not like something you would miss exactly, and it's not
Speaker 1: like it would be it would not be something you
Speaker 1: had to inspect for like the kid would probably need
Speaker 1: to go to a fucking hospital. Um. Yeah, So again,
Speaker 1: her allegations are untrue. But Ray was kind of a
Speaker 1: weird dude. He'd spent most of his young adulthood as
Speaker 1: a California beach bum with kind of a well off family,
Speaker 1: smoked a lot of pot um. He did this thing
Speaker 1: that California surfer dudes did where he didn't wear underwear
Speaker 1: underneath his board shorts, so like he had people. One
Speaker 1: of the things people knew about ray is that sometimes
Speaker 1: he would sit down he could see his balls like
Speaker 1: it was like a thing. Not again, he's not doing
Speaker 1: anything like bad. Like the most you could say is like, hey, dude,
Speaker 1: maybe you should be wearing underwear because like people were
Speaker 1: saying your balls all the time. Like, nothing bad. Just
Speaker 1: kind of a weird dude. None of the kid children
Speaker 1: he taught ever had any complaints about him. He seems
Speaker 1: to have been a pretty unproblematic teacher. I've I've never
Speaker 1: run across any evidence that he actually he did anything
Speaker 1: bad ever. Um, but he was a weird guy, and
Speaker 1: it was also weird in nineteen eighty three for a
Speaker 1: young man to teach preschool. That was a woman's job, right,
Speaker 1: This is still an area, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, just
Speaker 1: as certain people were suspicious of working mothers in this
Speaker 1: period of time and thought that like that was contributing
Speaker 1: to the breakdown of the family, a lot of folks
Speaker 1: were suspicious of young men in childcare and assumed that
Speaker 1: they must have some multerior motive. Um. And Judy Johnson
Speaker 1: was one of these people, and her suspicion of male
Speaker 1: teachers meshed with her hatred of doctors brought on by
Speaker 1: the tragic circumstances of her oldest son to produce again,
Speaker 1: all of these are like perfect storm things, right, Like
Speaker 1: that's the thing about all this ship, like it isn't
Speaker 1: just erupt out of nowhere. So I'm gonna read another
Speaker 1: fucking horrible quote. Lately, she had noticed how Matthew would
Speaker 1: run around pretending that he was giving people shots. As
Speaker 1: the popularity of toy Doctor Kits testifies, this behavior is
Speaker 1: common for small children. And although Judy and although Judy
Speaker 1: hated medical professionals, matt You had been exposed to them
Speaker 1: regularly that summer since his brother was getting hospital treatment
Speaker 1: for his tumor. Yet, Judy Johnson believed that Matthew had
Speaker 1: no idea what an injection was, so she asked him
Speaker 1: if Ray Bucky had given him shots. Again, he said no,
Speaker 1: but she pressed. Finally, after repeated questioning, he told his
Speaker 1: mother that Ray took his temperature. Judy concluded that the
Speaker 1: thermometer must have been Bucky's penis. Oh my god, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was just picturing like the kid running around filling
Speaker 1: up like little shot glass like syringes, which is again,
Speaker 1: like I think every kid probably as a period where
Speaker 1: they play doctor and ship like it's a incredibly common thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she becomes convinced. And again when she first starts asking
Speaker 1: her kid, did did Ray molest you? He says no.
Speaker 1: And that's the case with all of these satanic child
Speaker 1: abuse cases. The kids are always saying like, nothing happens
Speaker 1: at first, which is again we talked about like believing victims.
Speaker 1: Part of the problem is that people didn't and they
Speaker 1: pushed the victims repeatedly to like, yeah, it's it's very bad.
Speaker 1: So Judy calls the cops. Uh. And she took her
Speaker 1: son to the hospital, and of course the doctor listened
Speaker 1: to her story and examined her boy um. And again
Speaker 1: the doctor is like, hey, when adult men sodomized two
Speaker 1: year olds, it results in horrific damage. Uh, and a
Speaker 1: summer worth of anal rape would be immediately apparent in
Speaker 1: a boy this young. And the doctor saw no evidence
Speaker 1: of that. All he saw was evidence that Matthews Rectam
Speaker 1: was irritated in a way you'd expect if his mom
Speaker 1: was constantly poking it. The doctor was like, your kid
Speaker 1: seems okay, and he sent Judy away. This made her angry,
Speaker 1: and again she fucking hates doctors and she kept, and
Speaker 1: so she kept like. She started going to the police next,
Speaker 1: and through a mix of coaching her son to talk
Speaker 1: about a stranger's penis and speaking for her kid in
Speaker 1: police interviews, which remember they take the mom's testimony about
Speaker 1: what the kids said as direct testimony from the kid,
Speaker 1: Judy is able to convince the cops that her son
Speaker 1: had been abused. She and the cops shopped around for
Speaker 1: doctors until they found an intern at U c l
Speaker 1: A who had never diagnosed sex abuse cases before. This
Speaker 1: intern sees Matthews wrecked them and it's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: something must have happened here. Again, he doesn't really know
Speaker 1: what he's doing because he's not good at this kind
Speaker 1: of thing. Like the police like, yeah, let's find someone
Speaker 1: to make the story true. You know, cops, I know,
Speaker 1: it's just it's all so bad. It's all really bad.
Speaker 1: It's so fucking terrible. So the long and the short
Speaker 1: of this is the police opened an investigation into Ray Bucky,
Speaker 1: and as soon as the word got out, people start
Speaker 1: telling stories about Ray, not real ones, because again, he'd
Speaker 1: never done anything, but the kinds of stories people tell
Speaker 1: whenever someone a little weird gets accused of doing something terrible.
Speaker 1: A week later, the police exacerbated this as cops are
Speaker 1: want to do, by sending out a mass telephone request
Speaker 1: asking if any other parents had been abused, and like,
Speaker 1: the mass telephone request also has like, hey, please don't
Speaker 1: tell anyone that we called you about this. But of
Speaker 1: course everyone starts talking about it. It winds up in
Speaker 1: the news and it starts spreading. And now what you
Speaker 1: have all these parents going to their kids and being like,
Speaker 1: were you listed? So Judy Johnson also keeps adding new
Speaker 1: stories on about her son's abuse, claiming that Ray had
Speaker 1: forced him to wear a bra because one time her
Speaker 1: son had walked in on her dressing and said, Matthew
Speaker 1: wear bra. Again, kid sees his mom wearing a bra,
Speaker 1: doesn't really understand things, and it's like, oh, I want
Speaker 1: to wear a bra. She interprets. This is like he's
Speaker 1: been forced to wear a bra by his teacher. And also, yeah,
Speaker 1: the day after this, she told police. Uh she so
Speaker 1: she tells police this, and then the day after this
Speaker 1: she starts claiming, based on the strength of vague comments
Speaker 1: by a two year old, that Matthew had been tied
Speaker 1: up with a rope by Ray. So again the story
Speaker 1: keeps expanding, it gets more and more elaborate, and again,
Speaker 1: the very concept of investigating child sex trauma was new
Speaker 1: at this point, and the cops basically handed over responsibility
Speaker 1: to this case to the few folks on their team
Speaker 1: who had any training in this, and those people had
Speaker 1: been trained to believe the children never lie or make
Speaker 1: accusations based in fantasy. Again, that's the training too, in
Speaker 1: addition to Michelle remembers and ship. So the cops keep
Speaker 1: using the parents to ask if their kids had experienced anything,
Speaker 1: and the parents, being people, start to get excited about
Speaker 1: all the rumors flying around town. Some of them start
Speaker 1: to talk to their kids, and after badgering their kids repeatedly,
Speaker 1: those kids report what they think their parents want to hear.
Speaker 1: Ray had taken weird pictures of them. You know, that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff starts coming out. Now. The cops had
Speaker 1: searched raise home and found no photos, but whatever, like,
Speaker 1: it didn't matter that there was no evidence. The accusations
Speaker 1: were out there. Poor boy, Oh, it's so worse. His
Speaker 1: life is just shattered by It's fucked. It's completely fucked.
Speaker 1: Satan's silence goes on to note that as this process
Speaker 1: went on quote, other children embellished their stories. Within days,
Speaker 1: Tanya Mrjuli had talked about being sodomized, and some of
Speaker 1: her classmates said Ray had penetrated both of their rectums
Speaker 1: and made them fillate him. They also named additional children
Speaker 1: as victims, but when questioned, this new group denied anything
Speaker 1: had happened. The police and many parents did not believe
Speaker 1: the denials. They assumed that the children were keeping quiet
Speaker 1: about the abuse, and they searched for telltale signs. One
Speaker 1: woman said she noticed that her five year old daughter
Speaker 1: was overly interested in her mother's genitals, and she vowed
Speaker 1: to question them her further. Donna Murgilli remembered that since
Speaker 1: the beginning of the year, Tanya had been plagued with
Speaker 1: vaginal infections. Until now, Donna Antonia's doctors had attributed the
Speaker 1: problem to poor hygiene, possibly due to the fact that
Speaker 1: Tanya had been masturbating regularly since shortly after the birth
Speaker 1: of her baby brother. Now, Tanya's vaginitis seemed to have
Speaker 1: a more sinister origin. Police detectives urged parents to take
Speaker 1: their children to u c l a IF for team evaluations.
Speaker 1: These goings on were openly discutched disgusted in Manhattan Beaches,
Speaker 1: markets and churches and its ocean front promenade. So again,
Speaker 1: this all just goes viral, you know, and these kids
Speaker 1: who all deny it at first start being pushed into
Speaker 1: recalling abuse. By the end of September nineteen three, many
Speaker 1: of the children who had at first denied any abuse
Speaker 1: at all suddenly started coming up with elaborate stories about
Speaker 1: what they'd suffered. Satan's Silence goes into very good detail
Speaker 1: over all this, but to be honest, it is some
Speaker 1: of the darkest shit I've ever read. For some reason,
Speaker 1: detailed stories of children being convinced they were raped by
Speaker 1: an innocent man is actually a more disturbing to me
Speaker 1: than stories of actual child abuse. It's just it's so
Speaker 1: fucked all of this stuff. For example, for an example
Speaker 1: of how this ship went down, a popular nursery rhyme
Speaker 1: at the time was what you say is what you are?
Speaker 1: You're in naked movie star. It's just like some nonsense
Speaker 1: kids would say, right, there's a bunch of ship like that. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: just ship kids say. Most people would recognize this as that,
Speaker 1: But all of the adults in Manhattan Beach were by
Speaker 1: this point fully off of their goddamn rockers, and the
Speaker 1: fucking police detectives have decided that children who werecalled playing
Speaker 1: this game, we're providing evidence that they'd be sexually traumatized
Speaker 1: by Ray Buckey because the Naked movie Star game they
Speaker 1: called it, like, it's just like fucking making horrible ship
Speaker 1: out of absolutely nothing. So as this all expands, these
Speaker 1: kids get sent to a social worker named Ki McFarlane
Speaker 1: and Ki McFarland for an example of her background. She
Speaker 1: she's very involved in, like the child protection movement, all
Speaker 1: of this stuff we talked about last episode. She's involved
Speaker 1: in like this kind of growing movement to try to
Speaker 1: like do group therapy sessions. When I told you about
Speaker 1: someone who was like, oh, I like these group therapy
Speaker 1: sessions because they're like like public like self criticism sessions
Speaker 1: that like leftist political groups. Dude, that's Ki McFarlane. So
Speaker 1: she's that kind of person going into this um. And
Speaker 1: again I think her motivation was good, but she is
Speaker 1: another person who does horrific damage. And her main innovation
Speaker 1: was that she had developed a series of anatomically correct
Speaker 1: dolls little kids could use to discuss describe their abuse.
Speaker 1: Now this could be a useful development for kids who'd
Speaker 1: been abused, and we're too young to verbalize it. But
Speaker 1: the problem is that Key used her dolls to make
Speaker 1: kids feel like they were in playtime, and then she
Speaker 1: would tell stories about the abuse she thought they'd suffered,
Speaker 1: and kids, little kids being little kids, would start talking
Speaker 1: about this thing, right because they think they're in playtime
Speaker 1: and ship did you know? Um? Sorry, But one of
Speaker 1: the most ironic things here to me is that the
Speaker 1: actual child abuse in this case, at least, was from
Speaker 1: all the people trying to do the child abuse right,
Speaker 1: Like they're abusing these kids by planning this up on
Speaker 1: them and putting them through this, Yeah, fucking them up
Speaker 1: probably for life, like you can't go through this, and
Speaker 1: like repeatedly interrogated about the rape that like, god, damn it,
Speaker 1: it's so bad. But you know what's not nasty, Jake? Yeah,
Speaker 1: the products and services to support this podcast. We're back. Ah,
Speaker 1: Those ads were a lot better than manipulating children and
Speaker 1: the believing they were the victims of massive sexual abuse.
Speaker 1: That's what I say about what Sophie. That counts us
Speaker 1: a nice thing I said about the products. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: Will Roberts still have a job by the end of
Speaker 1: this record. So yeah, so Ki McFarland, we're talking, we're
Speaker 1: talking k M k mc fee. So she she she
Speaker 1: has these dolls and she yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: read you a quote to talk about like how she
Speaker 1: uses these dolls from a right up by the University
Speaker 1: of Missouri Kansas School of Law. That's kind of analyzing
Speaker 1: this case. Um, so here's yeah, how this all goes.
Speaker 1: Parents were encouraged to send their children to see I I,
Speaker 1: which is the place she worked at, For two hour interviews.
Speaker 1: McFarland pressed four hundred children through a series of leading
Speaker 1: question and the offer of rewards to report instances of
Speaker 1: abuse at McMartin. Children generally denied seeing any evidence of
Speaker 1: abuse at first, but eventually Mini gave McFarland the story
Speaker 1: she clearly wanted to hear. After the interviews, McFarland told
Speaker 1: parents that their children had been abused and described the
Speaker 1: nature of the alleged abuse. By March nine, three hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty four, former McMartin students had been diagnosed as
Speaker 1: sexually abused three hundred and eighty four. But well, no,
Speaker 1: we're getting into that. It starts to expand massively. So,
Speaker 1: in addition to interviews, a hundred and fifty children received
Speaker 1: medical examination. Dr Astrid Hager, who was one of McFarland's colleagues,
Speaker 1: concluded that eighty percent of the children she examined had
Speaker 1: been molested. For the most part, she based her findings
Speaker 1: not on physical evidence, but on medical histories and her
Speaker 1: belief that any conclusion should validate the child's history, which
Speaker 1: is not how you do science, you know, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: not good medicine. So to make it clear just how
Speaker 1: coercive McFarland's methods were, I want to read a passage
Speaker 1: about her interrogation of a little girl named Tanya. Long
Speaker 1: after most McMartin kids had been pushed into inventing lurid
Speaker 1: stories of abuse. Tanya held her ground that her teachers
Speaker 1: had done nothing wrong. But Tanya's mother eventually broke down
Speaker 1: in the face of all the other parents who'd grown
Speaker 1: convinced that their kids had been abused, and she sent
Speaker 1: Tanya to Kie McFarland. Kim McFarland's technique with Tanny was
Speaker 1: much more refined. Before asking the child anything about sex abuse,
Speaker 1: McFarland spent several minutes, engaging her in fantasy play. Oh Froggy.
Speaker 1: McFarland squeaked as she and Tany manipulated a frog puppet
Speaker 1: and a toy doctor kit. I think you have a
Speaker 1: little temperature here. The two played with the banana Puppet,
Speaker 1: Big Bird, Mr Doggie, Mr Dragon, Cookie, Monster Bugs Bunny,
Speaker 1: Mr Alligator, pac Man, and Mr Snake. Not until Tanya
Speaker 1: was deeply absorbed in the world of pretended, McFarland present
Speaker 1: her with a collection of very special dollies in this
Speaker 1: little bag. They look like real people underneath we can
Speaker 1: take off their clothes. Tanya then identified the dolls we
Speaker 1: weise chee cheese, which is what you called breasts, butts weenie,
Speaker 1: and the naugas hole or vagina. McFarland proceeded to ask
Speaker 1: Tanny if she had ever seen a man's weany her daddy's,
Speaker 1: Tanya answered. McFarland was not satisfied. How about someone else,
Speaker 1: I don't know who else? Another man? Still, Tanya existed,
Speaker 1: insisted she had only seen her father's. Well, I know
Speaker 1: some secrets, said McFarland, and I know that you know
Speaker 1: them too. You know what I know some secrets about
Speaker 1: year old school? When Tanya still didn't respond. McFarland added
Speaker 1: that she had seen the little girl's friends from mcmartin's
Speaker 1: and they told her all the bad secrets. We can
Speaker 1: have a good time with the dolls, McFarland coaxed, and
Speaker 1: you know, we can talk about some of those bad
Speaker 1: secrets if you want to, and then they could go away.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be a good idea? Urging puppets on Tanya,
Speaker 1: she again asked if she knew bad secrets. Uh, Tanya
Speaker 1: shook her head. Then maybe she could figure them out.
Speaker 1: McFarland's said she should off her secret machine and assured
Speaker 1: Tanya that she would feel better if she told it
Speaker 1: bad things about Ray. I hate those secrets, Tanya finally said,
Speaker 1: addressing a bird puppet on McFarland's hand. Ray Ray did
Speaker 1: bad things and I don't even like it. Do you
Speaker 1: see what happens here? Yeah? I just thinking though, like that, Tanya, right,
Speaker 1: what a like strong minded child was just absolutely not
Speaker 1: like literally just pushed to the point of like committing
Speaker 1: something that didn't happen. Yeah, you know, like despite all that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and again like it really has the problem here is
Speaker 1: not that like you shouldn't believe children when they report rebus.
Speaker 1: It's that you shouldn't badge your children who insists they
Speaker 1: haven't been abused into it. It's yeah, there's part of
Speaker 1: me that's like, right, I get it. If if any
Speaker 1: parent heard anything like that, you'd be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: but this is beyond that. This is like literally that
Speaker 1: woman planning these ideas. Yeah, it's so bad. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I don't like I think McFarland. McFarland had a long
Speaker 1: history of working with abused kids, like before anyone, before
Speaker 1: people even really believed that it happened. She was doing
Speaker 1: that work, and she came from a good place, but
Speaker 1: she goes fully. I mean, like what she's doing is
Speaker 1: evil here, Yeah, exactly. Now, the McMartin case didn't start
Speaker 1: off as a satanic ritual affair. You'll notice, like we
Speaker 1: haven't been talking about like the devil in this case yet, right,
Speaker 1: But you have to remember that stories about other such cases,
Speaker 1: like the ones we discussed last episode in Kerrent County,
Speaker 1: we're all over the news and Current County was only
Speaker 1: like two hours away from McMartin. Both parents and students
Speaker 1: were hearing all the ship on TV. And the kids
Speaker 1: are hearing this ship on TV. And as these kids
Speaker 1: are getting interrogated and has to give more information, they
Speaker 1: start to make up ship based on the stuff they're
Speaker 1: hearing on fucking television, right, and also based on the
Speaker 1: stuff they're being told by their parents. And this starts
Speaker 1: with Matthew Johnson, who again his mom is the the
Speaker 1: very very sad story lady m who is very Christian
Speaker 1: and believes in all this stuff. And she starts, she
Speaker 1: starts pushing her son to tell stories of not just
Speaker 1: being molested by Ray, but by being of being molested
Speaker 1: by McMartin teacher Betty Raider, who was sixty four years
Speaker 1: old at the point. And the more Matthew said, the
Speaker 1: more his mom praised him, and she started to suspect
Speaker 1: that the McMartin school had been the center of a
Speaker 1: vast network of pedophile Satanist because again, she's profoundly ill
Speaker 1: and an alcoholic. By January nine four, matt was telling
Speaker 1: stories of being molested at a ranch. And I'm gonna
Speaker 1: read one of the transcriptions Judy made of her son's stories.
Speaker 1: And keep in mind parents could enter statements they coaxed
Speaker 1: out of their kids into the legal record and authorities
Speaker 1: treated this as a direct statement from the child because
Speaker 1: kids and kids are also, you know, incapable of making
Speaker 1: things up. So this is the statement she coaxes out
Speaker 1: of her son, or at least says that she coaxes
Speaker 1: out of her son. Who knows what how much he
Speaker 1: he fucking said. Matthew feels that he left l a
Speaker 1: international in an airplane and flew to Palm Springs. Matthew
Speaker 1: went to the armory. The goatman was there. It was
Speaker 1: a ritual type atmosphere at the church. Peggy drilled the
Speaker 1: child under the under the arms armpits. Peggy's one of
Speaker 1: the teachers. Under the arms and armpits. Atmosphere was that
Speaker 1: of magic arts. Ray flew in the air Peggy, Abs
Speaker 1: and Betty were all dressed up his witches. The person
Speaker 1: who had buried matt Who buried Matthew, she said he
Speaker 1: had been buried, is miss Betty. There were no holes
Speaker 1: in the coffin. Babs went on him with a went
Speaker 1: with him on a train and an older girl where
Speaker 1: he was hurt by men in suits. Ray waved goodbye.
Speaker 1: Petty gave Matthew an enema. Staples were put in Matthew's ears,
Speaker 1: his nipples in his tongue. Babs put scissors in his eyes.
Speaker 1: She chopped up animals. Matthew was hurt by a lion.
Speaker 1: An elephant played. A goat climbed up higher and higher,
Speaker 1: and then a badman threw it down the stairs. Lots
Speaker 1: of candles were there, they were all black. Ray pricked
Speaker 1: his right pointer finger put it in the goat's anus.
Speaker 1: Old Grandma played the piano. A baby's head was chopped
Speaker 1: off and the brains were burned. Peggy had a scissors
Speaker 1: in the church and she cut Matthew's hair. Matthew had
Speaker 1: to drink the baby's blood. Ray wanted Matthews spit. You
Speaker 1: see what they said, like this is a kid, it's nonsense,
Speaker 1: like they're fucking elephants in it, Like right, but surely
Speaker 1: the police would have looked him like there's no wounds. Nope,
Speaker 1: And why did she let him go on a plane
Speaker 1: with strangers if she was already worried about No, he
Speaker 1: didn't she none of this happened. Yeah, but like she
Speaker 1: claimed that this was like while he was at school
Speaker 1: for eight hours, they took him on a plane to
Speaker 1: Palm Springs and like they were goatmen. Like it's all
Speaker 1: it's clearly like a kid being coaxed into coming up
Speaker 1: with fantasies. And they sound like a child's fantasies. This
Speaker 1: isn't what happens in sex abuse cases. There are very
Speaker 1: early elephants. It sounds like her fantasies, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like not fantasy, but it's clearly some ships.
Speaker 1: Like I can't believe that the police ever got serious. Yep,
Speaker 1: they super do. Once the news broke that Satanists were
Speaker 1: behind the purported abuse at McMartin, other kids came forward
Speaker 1: with an avalanche of stories of devil worship, child sacrifice, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Kids talked about watching babies get murdered and all sorts
Speaker 1: of wild ship. And one of the things that they
Speaker 1: would claim in this period, because this happens all over
Speaker 1: the Satanic panic, is there's claims people will claim I
Speaker 1: sacrifice babies or I saw babies sacrificed like all of
Speaker 1: this ship and that people would ask like, well, but
Speaker 1: there's no nobody was murdered, like, there's no reports of
Speaker 1: dead people. So they developed this whole theory that Satanists
Speaker 1: had a tactic of having children at home and not
Speaker 1: getting them birth certificates so that they could have babies
Speaker 1: to sacrifice that the state didn't know about. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's a cute, Yeah you had the Like the
Speaker 1: most insane theory is that the video of Hillary cutting
Speaker 1: a baby's face off and wearing it, and it's like
Speaker 1: none of them have seen it. They're like, oh, we
Speaker 1: know it's there, do you know? It's like I don't
Speaker 1: think you do, because that would be like the only
Speaker 1: thing the news talked about for like a year if
Speaker 1: it happened, right, like a thought that was real the people.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, I don't know if someone would be
Speaker 1: on it, you know, yeah, someone would be on it,
Speaker 1: and it would be like the top topic of discussion
Speaker 1: nationwide world. Yeah, Like like I look at how much
Speaker 1: people discussed when Hillary Clinton fell down that one time,
Speaker 1: Like if she was killing babies, it would be huge.
Speaker 1: Hundred people know the video exists, but we're all dumb
Speaker 1: because we don't believe it's amazing. So yeah, it's all yeah. Again,
Speaker 1: there's no evidence of any of this stuff. There's no
Speaker 1: evidence of any baby's getting killed, there's no evidence of
Speaker 1: any plane trips to Palm Beach, but also authorities, the cops,
Speaker 1: and the parents believed every word of this because at
Speaker 1: this point complete mania had overtaken Manhattan Beach. Like everyone
Speaker 1: is out of their goddamn minds at this point. And
Speaker 1: some of it's understandable, like their parents who legitimately think
Speaker 1: that there's a child rape epidemic at their school that
Speaker 1: their kids were involved in. Like nobody's thinking anymore in
Speaker 1: Manhattan Beach, right. Yeah. The whole thing as well though,
Speaker 1: is like I think the police, oh, but like the
Speaker 1: police kind of abusing the phears of her Absolutely, it's horrible.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from the University of Missouri, Kansas
Speaker 1: is right up here. Judy Johnson's reports of misbehavior at
Speaker 1: the mcmartin's school preschool became increasingly bizarre. She claimed that
Speaker 1: Peggy bucky raised mother, was involved in Satanic practices. She
Speaker 1: was said to have taken Johnson's sun to a church
Speaker 1: where the boy was made to watch a baby being
Speaker 1: beheaded and then forced to drink the blood. She insisted
Speaker 1: that Ray Bucky had atomized her son while his head
Speaker 1: was in the toilet, and had taken him to a
Speaker 1: car wash and locked him in the trunk. Johnson told
Speaker 1: police that Ray pranced around the pre school in a
Speaker 1: cape in a Santa Claus costume, and that other teachers
Speaker 1: at the school chopped up rabbits and placed some sort
Speaker 1: of star on her Son's bottom. Eventually, most prosecutors would
Speaker 1: come to recognize Johnson's allegations as the delusions of a
Speaker 1: paranoid schizophrenic, but the snowball of suspicion had been started rolling.
Speaker 1: Chief cool Meyer's letter led to Newt which is the
Speaker 1: letter he like sent out to parents, led to new
Speaker 1: accusations and demands from parents for a full scale investigation
Speaker 1: of doings at the McMartin preschool. Bowing to this pressure,
Speaker 1: pressure at the district attorney's office handed a major portion
Speaker 1: of the continuing investigation over to Ki McFarlane. So oh no, really,
Speaker 1: it's puppet lady. It's so fucked up, God, like the
Speaker 1: worst person. You give it to her. Let her investigate
Speaker 1: the preschool, the person whose job is absolutely not to investigate,
Speaker 1: like man of criminal conspiracies. Yeah yeah again. No physical
Speaker 1: evidence was ever uncovered of any sort of abuse or
Speaker 1: anything else illegal. The closest thing they had to evidence
Speaker 1: was that softcore porn mags were found in Ray Bucky's home,
Speaker 1: which like yeah, yeah, and they're like playboys, Like it's
Speaker 1: not even anything that's like you could say, is like
Speaker 1: super raunchy, right, Like, none of this stopped the case
Speaker 1: from going forward. On March twenty two, nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 1: a grand jury indicted Ray Bucky, Peggy, Bucky Peggy and Bucky,
Speaker 1: Virginia McMartin, and three other McMartin teachers. These seven people
Speaker 1: were initially indicted on one hundred and fifteen counts of
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. Two months later, they were indicted on
Speaker 1: another ninety three counts. The case had become a political
Speaker 1: issue for the d A Robert Philiposian, who was facing
Speaker 1: re election and thought that putting away some Satanists would
Speaker 1: help his chances. Now, most of the McMartin seven were
Speaker 1: held with outrageous bails. Ray Bucky was held without bail,
Speaker 1: and he spends five years in jail as a ristle
Speaker 1: in jail as a child molester, which like just yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's they just destroy this man. Now. As
Speaker 1: the case proceeded, all of the McMartin seven had their
Speaker 1: homes searched. Nothing was found. By this point children were
Speaker 1: telling stories about secret tunnels under the school and being
Speaker 1: forced to bury ritually murdered babies. And of course, since
Speaker 1: the cops aren't finding anything, a lot of McMartin parents decided, like,
Speaker 1: what the cops have to be in on it because
Speaker 1: they're not finding any of the evidence that's got to
Speaker 1: be there. So the parents take it upon themselves to investigate, right,
Speaker 1: so we get we finally get um. In March of
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, as the case war on fifty McMartin
Speaker 1: parents showed up at a lot next to the school
Speaker 1: and started digging to try to find the caves under
Speaker 1: the school, literally literally digging. Yeah, and the d a,
Speaker 1: who again wants to get reelected, hires an archaeological firm
Speaker 1: to help them. Oh my god. And they're all certain
Speaker 1: that it's also just bizarre to have people who's like,
Speaker 1: like people have job titles and training for a reason. No,
Speaker 1: they don't, fuck it, Who are going to figure this out? Ye?
Speaker 1: So yeah, everyone is certain that they're gonna dick find
Speaker 1: mass graves and caves underneath the school filled with like
Speaker 1: that's where the evidence has got to be, is the
Speaker 1: caves under the school. They don't find anything because there's
Speaker 1: nothing there because no one at the mcmartins school had
Speaker 1: been molestic kids, you know. Um, So the actual court case, thankfully,
Speaker 1: there is a period here where some rationality enters into it,
Speaker 1: because the actual court case against the McMartin seven runs
Speaker 1: into immediate problems over the fact that there is no
Speaker 1: evidence that anyone's actually been harmed in any way, shape
Speaker 1: or form. Um. Yeah, but this is five years into
Speaker 1: a jail sentence for this guy. Well no, not not yet.
Speaker 1: This is like through I mean the trial takes actually
Speaker 1: twenty eight months just the trial, and of course there's
Speaker 1: years before this where all of this is building. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he spends five years in jail. Um. So again there's
Speaker 1: no evidence at any point, and that's the actual court
Speaker 1: case runs into the massive problem of the complete lack
Speaker 1: of evidence. But all of these people have already been
Speaker 1: convicted in the court of public opinion, and in fact,
Speaker 1: the d A announced quote the primary purpose of the
Speaker 1: McMartin preschool was to solicit young children to commit lud
Speaker 1: conduct with the proprietors of the school, and also to
Speaker 1: procure young children for pornographic purposes. His assistant announced that
Speaker 1: millions of child porn films of the victims existed. The
Speaker 1: media dutifully reported on all of this, even though again
Speaker 1: no evidence of this had ever been found. Millions said millions,
Speaker 1: millions found not not ever, not nothing, assistant assistant to
Speaker 1: some weird stat And again, part of this is the
Speaker 1: problem that is starting to get better in American media,
Speaker 1: but it's still pretty bad. Where the police say something
Speaker 1: and journalists don't investigate it. They say, oh, the police
Speaker 1: said this, this has to be the truth. Let's report
Speaker 1: on what the police said. And it's like, well know,
Speaker 1: they lie all the time, right, And you get like
Speaker 1: any kind of like the un might say something or
Speaker 1: say anything against it, people like, oh, here we go conspiracy,
Speaker 1: Like no, it's your job, like question people in power, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's journalism. And also all of these groups have lied
Speaker 1: on a number of occasions, let me list them. It's
Speaker 1: not a conspiracy to say that people in power lie
Speaker 1: exactly right, Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's what the it's
Speaker 1: what you do if you have powers you yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So people magazine called McMartin California's Nightmare Nursery Time published
Speaker 1: an article with the one word title brutalized, Like media
Speaker 1: goes whole hog on this ship, not all of them,
Speaker 1: because again, okay, so the the authors of Satan's Silence,
Speaker 1: which have been quoting from our journalists during this period,
Speaker 1: and there's some of like the only people seemingly in
Speaker 1: the country who are like this is nonsense, Like all
Speaker 1: of this is nonsense. What is wrong with you people?
Speaker 1: And they like their book is published like right around
Speaker 1: the time that all of this, like all these cases
Speaker 1: start to fall apart, like Satan's Silence is from that time.
Speaker 1: That's part of why it's such a good Um. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's also is where I got all the background of
Speaker 1: like what set this up. I can't say enough about
Speaker 1: what a good book it is if you want to understand, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: very good journalists. Um yeah, it's a good book. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah. All these lies about the McMartin teachers led
Speaker 1: to a lynch mob mentality within the community of Manhattan Beach.
Speaker 1: Peggy Bucky was stabbed in the crotch by a random
Speaker 1: man while she was out on the street. The school
Speaker 1: was lit on fire and spray painted with graffiti that
Speaker 1: said Ray must die. Several parents went so far is
Speaker 1: to solicit the services of a hitman to bomb Peggy's
Speaker 1: car like off the No, it never like yeah, they
Speaker 1: just like the first episode, we're basically talking about people
Speaker 1: filling a car up with gas and then they just
Speaker 1: put a brick on the brakes. There's no one at
Speaker 1: the wheel. It just goes sucking careening into the city. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fucking it's so bad. It's like to tell though,
Speaker 1: like such a portionary tale. It's it's so important that
Speaker 1: people know about this exact Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna quote again from Satan's silence about like how out
Speaker 1: of control ship gets in Manhattan Beach. The fact that
Speaker 1: the accused were behind bars did not calm the frenzy
Speaker 1: running through the South Bay as parents and authorities pursued
Speaker 1: Judy Johnson's claims and became convinced that mcmartin's staff was
Speaker 1: only one arc of a gigantic sex ring. Searching for
Speaker 1: the other accomplices, parents formed investigative squads armed with address
Speaker 1: lists supplied by c I I, which is what McFarland
Speaker 1: worked at. UH. They drove to their sons and daughters
Speaker 1: around to find molestation sites like the Devil House, which
Speaker 1: is like what the kids had just been making shut up,
Speaker 1: and they were trying to find real locations that clearly weren't.
Speaker 1: As the children pointed their fingers at homes and businesses,
Speaker 1: mothers and fathers wrote down addresses and submitted them to
Speaker 1: the d a's office, which in turn distributed them to
Speaker 1: more parents, and and they're like, hey, we hear this
Speaker 1: business might be involved in mass child sex abuse, as
Speaker 1: your kid's been near it, like just and it's just
Speaker 1: like they're just firing a shotgun into a crowd basically,
Speaker 1: like they're just shattering lines left and right, like right,
Speaker 1: like it's so bad. A father staked out nearby commuter
Speaker 1: airports and copied registration numbers off the tales of planes,
Speaker 1: while reporting suspicious characters such as the female pilot who
Speaker 1: maybe a lesbian. The kids are, yeah, yeah, buck them,
Speaker 1: because again the kids are talking about how they were
Speaker 1: flown places. So like some dad shows up to take
Speaker 1: down all the plane the in numbers on planes, Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: so is the primarily besides word of mouth? Is this
Speaker 1: just like grocery store magazine covers? Is that what it
Speaker 1: is that's getting this information out of you know, major
Speaker 1: news and the and the d a's office. The cops
Speaker 1: are calling people and being like, we hear about this
Speaker 1: happening in this school or this building. It's not it's
Speaker 1: like tabloid. It's like there's like credible quote unquote credible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like fucking Time is reporting on this ship. Most people
Speaker 1: trust Time, Like you could argue Time magazine actually a
Speaker 1: long history of shitty journalism, but like the people, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not like the National Enquirer spreading ship. It's like
Speaker 1: looking like the d a's office. You're supposed to theoretically
Speaker 1: be able to trust the d A. If you're like
Speaker 1: a random citizen, you would assume that they're not just
Speaker 1: spreading nasense. But that's why you shouldn't assume that. Can
Speaker 1: you take a can you take an addie addie break? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So if you know who doesn't spread nonsense about mass satanic,
Speaker 1: pedophilic conspiracy is that chatters the lives of human beings
Speaker 1: like a cluster bomb. I mean, i'd certainly hope you'd
Speaker 1: say the products and services that support this show, that's right,
Speaker 1: not a one of them. Fantastic. Okay, we're back, So
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue that quote about just how out
Speaker 1: of control things get. The paranoia was all encompassing. One parent.
Speaker 1: Jackie mcgauley, who had a two year old daughter enrolled
Speaker 1: at McMartin pre school for a short time after the
Speaker 1: investigation started, came to believe that Ray Bucky had molested
Speaker 1: her child, even though the police were watching watching him closely.
Speaker 1: At this time, she also became suspicious about many other people,
Speaker 1: including a local newspaper columnists she was dating. When the
Speaker 1: two broke up, mcgalley accused him of sexual abuse. Later,
Speaker 1: she made the same charge against a worker at the
Speaker 1: rich Stone Center where her daughter went for therapy. Her
Speaker 1: allegations never went anywhere, but were lost amiddle wash of
Speaker 1: outlandish claims, including rumors that the mayor's wife was ferrying
Speaker 1: corpses around in her station wagon. At times, people who
Speaker 1: spread these stories ended up accusing each other. One couple,
Speaker 1: for instance, through a celebratory party for McMartin children and
Speaker 1: their parents the day the teachers were arrested. Later there
Speaker 1: were whisperings that those two were accomplices because the rumor
Speaker 1: went Their business was located next to the athletic club
Speaker 1: where Matthew Johnson and later other children said they had
Speaker 1: been molested. Yep, you just can't go anywhere anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because again, everyone's lost their fucking minds at this point, Like, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: it's a sort of collective insanity that's taken home here. Yeah.
Speaker 1: As the trial wore down, Judy Johnson broke down completely.
Speaker 1: Her husband left her, and she of course immediately accused
Speaker 1: him of being part of a vast satanic pedophile conspiracy.
Speaker 1: She eventually barricaded herself and her children and her small
Speaker 1: home with like a pile of guns. She threatens her
Speaker 1: brother when the twelve gage shotgun when he flies in
Speaker 1: from out of town to help, and she's eventually taken
Speaker 1: forcibly two way psyche atric hospital, where she's diagnosed with
Speaker 1: paranoid schizophrenia. Police who searched her home found a cash
Speaker 1: of guns and AMMO, including a rifle, under the bed
Speaker 1: of her cancer written son, who told cops that he
Speaker 1: would kill them to protect his mom because he's been
Speaker 1: like they've all been, and like finished, it's terrible And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean he dies shortly thereafter because of the untreated
Speaker 1: brain tumor, and so does his mom. She dies from
Speaker 1: massive liber deterioration caused by alcoholism. Um, it's just a
Speaker 1: terrible just a nightmare of a story all around, like again,
Speaker 1: and she's responsible for a lot of this, all this starting,
Speaker 1: but also like fuck yeah, just a fucking horrible, horrible tragedy.
Speaker 1: Everything about it's terrible. Ultimately for me, I'm just thinking,
Speaker 1: like what the funk were the police doing? Like they
Speaker 1: facilitated this, They absolutely did, But again they're also not
Speaker 1: the smartest people tend to join the police force, and
Speaker 1: they're being told, they're being trained in a lot of
Speaker 1: cases that satanic ritual sex conspiracies are a major problem
Speaker 1: in America and an absolutely real thing. People believed this ship.
Speaker 1: There's a great video called um Defending Yourself against Edged Weapons,
Speaker 1: I think, and it's like a police training video that
Speaker 1: I believe was made in the eighties, And it's actually
Speaker 1: a pretty good training video if you actually want very
Speaker 1: practical training on like how dangerous fucking knives are. It's
Speaker 1: all about like knives are fucking horrifying. But there's a
Speaker 1: scene in it because they like recreate a bunch of
Speaker 1: scenes where like cops get stabbed, and one of the
Speaker 1: scenes they're like busting up a satanic covin And it's
Speaker 1: not like a joke. Think they thought that this was
Speaker 1: the thing that happened. Um, it's it's fucking something else.
Speaker 1: So on November two nine, after twenty eight months of testimony,
Speaker 1: that McMartin case went to a jury who spent two
Speaker 1: and a half months deliberating. They acquitted Peggy Bucky on
Speaker 1: all charges and wound up deadlocked on Ray Bucky. Jury
Speaker 1: four person Louis Chang noted the interview tapes were too
Speaker 1: biased to leading. That's the main crux of it. Another
Speaker 1: juror told reporters whether I believe he did it or
Speaker 1: whether it and whether it was proven are very differ print.
Speaker 1: Judge Pounders offered his own appraisal of the verdict. I
Speaker 1: was not surprised by the verdicts. I would not have
Speaker 1: been surprised at any decision that Jerry made. The judge
Speaker 1: basically being like everything like who the funk knows, Like
Speaker 1: everything is so out of control at this point nothing
Speaker 1: could surprise me. Yeah, and that's kind of like he
Speaker 1: says some stuff to that effect of like I'm just
Speaker 1: glad like to not be involved in the ship anymore.
Speaker 1: Like this is so this of course, outraged child protection
Speaker 1: groups and parents across the country. Five hundred people, including
Speaker 1: dozens of McMartin parents, marched through the streets of Manhattan
Speaker 1: Beach with signs that said, we believe the children good stuff. Well,
Speaker 1: but then abody. One TV poll at the time noted
Speaker 1: that of respondents thought the BUCkies were guilty. In the end,
Speaker 1: no one was convicted of any crimes at the McMartin preschool.
Speaker 1: But Ray Bucky still, you know, spent five years ago.
Speaker 1: These people's lives are just shattered. Like it's just a
Speaker 1: mean a woman got stopped in the cross. Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: it's so fucking it's so bad. Yeah, And like the
Speaker 1: super fun thing, Jake, you're gonna love this part. The
Speaker 1: super fun thing about the Satanic panic is that the
Speaker 1: complete lack of evidence and the acquittal of all of
Speaker 1: the charged people and what became the nation's longest and
Speaker 1: most expensive court case, did nothing to quell the public
Speaker 1: witch hunts. Again. They spent fifteen million dollars on this
Speaker 1: case and can't find a goddamn thing. Well, the McCartin
Speaker 1: trial was going on Kern County, which we talked about
Speaker 1: the end of the first episode. Right that first case
Speaker 1: interrupts again into a series of allegations of mass child
Speaker 1: rape networks. The cases never go anywhere, and they're all
Speaker 1: hampered by the fact that all of the cops, lawyers,
Speaker 1: and judges involved in every given case like inevitably get
Speaker 1: to cry it a secret satanic child molesters themselves, like
Speaker 1: they get added into conspiracy. It's really blocks off the trials,
Speaker 1: like now the judges being accused. It's like like the
Speaker 1: just the community loses goddamn mind. Hundreds of innocent people
Speaker 1: in the ensuing panic get charged all over the country,
Speaker 1: many of them did time in jail some king decades.
Speaker 1: Families are torn the funk apart. One example of this
Speaker 1: would be the case of Carol Felstead and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: quote now from a rite up on her case in
Speaker 1: the conversation In n she went to her doctor complaining
Speaker 1: of headaches. Rather than being given any kind of useful medication,
Speaker 1: she was sent to therapy, which included hypnosis to recover
Speaker 1: memories of ritual sex abuse. She was given psychotherapy and
Speaker 1: like yeah, she was basically went through repressed memory therapy,
Speaker 1: and she started to believe that her parents had been
Speaker 1: the leaders of a satanic cult and that her mother
Speaker 1: had murdered another of their children. And that Carol had
Speaker 1: sat on top of the body and then set fire
Speaker 1: to the family home, and like none of this was true.
Speaker 1: What actually had happened is that, like they had, the
Speaker 1: family had another daughter who was ill from birth and
Speaker 1: died in the hospital um from a defective apart before
Speaker 1: Carol was born. But obviously her parents talked about it
Speaker 1: when she was a little baby, and like those I
Speaker 1: like that got into her head and then wait, so
Speaker 1: she had to repress a quote unquote repressed memory of
Speaker 1: someone she'd never met. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's sucking. Uh.
Speaker 1: Carol falsely claimed to have given birth to six babies
Speaker 1: who are meant to be conceived and ritually sacrificed by
Speaker 1: the Satanic cult. Her medical records showed that she'd never
Speaker 1: been pregnant. But she believes all this, all these memories
Speaker 1: that this therapist shoves into her head, she believes. She
Speaker 1: cuts off contact with her family, changes her name, and
Speaker 1: never ever, ever like forgives or come back to her family.
Speaker 1: She dies in two thousand five, in like very strange circumstances.
Speaker 1: It's just a terrible case. And like by all accounts,
Speaker 1: before going to therapy, she was fine, she was doing great,
Speaker 1: she was an intelligent young woman with a whole life
Speaker 1: ahead of her, exactly like this, this therapist just destroys
Speaker 1: her and her family. Yeah, yeah, it's tremendously fucked. Like
Speaker 1: the actual number of casualties of this will never know.
Speaker 1: It's probably thousands, thousands and thousands of easily, it's so bad.
Speaker 1: In sixty minutes, there at a one hour special in
Speaker 1: the Connection between Dungeons and Dragon, Satanic rites and suicide
Speaker 1: seven to bats Ship. Christian activists published the Catechism of
Speaker 1: the New Age, an unhinged pamphlet that argued, among other things,
Speaker 1: that D and D was evil because it encouraged critical
Speaker 1: thinking and children, which inevitably lead to heresy of the
Speaker 1: devil thinking. And of course heavy metal music gets demonized
Speaker 1: in this period too, right, and obviously, being good marketers,
Speaker 1: a lot of heavy metal musicians lean into this and
Speaker 1: like specifically start like doing devil stuff in their songs,
Speaker 1: and their teenage countercultural fans do this as well, and
Speaker 1: this sometimes end in tragedy because a lot of these kids,
Speaker 1: they're just doing it to be like Funk the Man,
Speaker 1: like the Yeah, exactly, but also it makes them suspects
Speaker 1: and murders. Which is what happened in the case of
Speaker 1: the West Memphis three. Have you ever heard of this case?
Speaker 1: Real bad? Yeah. On May five of that year, eight
Speaker 1: year old Christopher Buyers went missing with of his friends.
Speaker 1: The boys were found murdered shortly thereafter, hog tied with
Speaker 1: their own shoelaces. One appeared to have his genitals cut off. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, like, obviously, this is an actual horrific crime
Speaker 1: that was committed, and it was immediately put down to
Speaker 1: satanic ritual activity. Three teenagers were quickly accused of the crime,
Speaker 1: based largely on the strength of the fact that they've
Speaker 1: been arrested for vandalism and liked heavy metal, and the
Speaker 1: whole case was a complete ship show. So, for one thing,
Speaker 1: the police department that is investigating this case is not
Speaker 1: just wildly incompetent, It was actively being investigated for stealing
Speaker 1: drugs from another police department. The other West Memphis Police
Speaker 1: are not a good department from So the cops never
Speaker 1: secured the crime scene, UM, did not properly investigate the
Speaker 1: crime scene, and the coroner was incompetent because he believed
Speaker 1: and reported that the kids general genitals had been cut
Speaker 1: off as part of like a ritual and the real
Speaker 1: is that like it was a decomposing body that got
Speaker 1: eaten by animals, right um, and a competent later, competent corners,
Speaker 1: like this is clearly what was done, what happened to
Speaker 1: the body after death. So the police in order to
Speaker 1: find the culprits, rather than investigating because again terrible police department,
Speaker 1: they go to a local juvenile psychiatrist and ask like, hey,
Speaker 1: what kids do you think did this? Right? And the yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: who who who do we are is for this? Like
Speaker 1: we we are so tired from stealing all these drugs
Speaker 1: from the cops next door, Like we really don't have
Speaker 1: any time to look into this ship. So the psychiatrist
Speaker 1: blames a kid named Damian Eccles. Now Eccles was eighteen
Speaker 1: at the time, and he yeah, he's the kind of
Speaker 1: kid fortunate name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a really
Speaker 1: it's it's a problem. And again his town is like
Speaker 1: a hardcore religious fundamentalist. It's fucking West Memphis in the eighties. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he wore all black and listened to the metal music.
Speaker 1: He read Stephen King books. He was interested in the occult,
Speaker 1: so he had like books on the occult, and ship
Speaker 1: in his house, and he had mental health issues. He'd
Speaker 1: spent time in a mental institution, which is why the
Speaker 1: psychiatrist knew this kid was out there. And the psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: doing exactly what psychiatrists should never do, blames him for
Speaker 1: the crime, and soon so did the police. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: wind up wrapping up a friend of Echo's in it,
Speaker 1: Jason Baldwin, who was sixteen and was like a good
Speaker 1: student who had no history of trouble um he but
Speaker 1: was also a fan of like heavy metal like they,
Speaker 1: and they drew scenes from like Metallica and Slayer and
Speaker 1: Iron Iron Maiden songs, and like teachers found them and
Speaker 1: so like, oh, these kids are like it's the devil. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they've both been arrested for vandalism in shoplifting, but
Speaker 1: like nothing violent, like never an actual crime. Yeah, they're
Speaker 1: fucking teenagers. Yeah, uh, it's it's real bad. And basically,
Speaker 1: in order to convict these kids, the West Memphis Police
Speaker 1: found a mentally disabled seventeen year old with an i
Speaker 1: Q of seventy two who knew both kids, and they
Speaker 1: bribe his poor family with like lies about reward money
Speaker 1: that if he like well like and like they're talking
Speaker 1: to him about like, oh, yeah, on, once you get
Speaker 1: these kids convicted, you'll be able to buy a truck
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, like it's unbelievably fucked up. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: And so they questioned this, The family agree with him,
Speaker 1: question this mentally ill kid who has no tie of this,
Speaker 1: and the police question for twelve hours with no parent,
Speaker 1: no lawyer, no child advocate with him, and he confesses
Speaker 1: eventually that he echoes and Baldwin killed the kids, even
Speaker 1: though his like as a clearly coerced confession that's frequently
Speaker 1: wrong and includes facts that weren't part of like the
Speaker 1: physical evidence, and he immediately recants. But it doesn't fucking matter, um,
Speaker 1: because all three of these kids get fucking convicted, and
Speaker 1: it's it's I mean, like now, law enforcements pretty certain
Speaker 1: that it was they were like those kids who were
Speaker 1: murdered were killed by a single person, probably an adult. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, twelve hours. I remember one reading something that
Speaker 1: really made me think, Yeah, someone said, are like deep
Speaker 1: long interrogations like that out right, it's like being war
Speaker 1: aboarded with dialogues, you know what I mean. And it's
Speaker 1: like I remember thinking, that's such a good way when
Speaker 1: the water dialogue. Yeah, it's it's a nightmare. So Damian
Speaker 1: Echols gets sentenced to death, Jesse ms Kelly gets sentenced
Speaker 1: to life imprisonment plus two twenty years sentences, and Jason
Speaker 1: Baldwin gets sentenced to life imprisonment. Um and yeah, the
Speaker 1: the prosecution basically claims like this is part of a
Speaker 1: devil ritual that the kids were doing, Like that's part
Speaker 1: of the case. Um And obviously like there was never
Speaker 1: any hard physical evidence. And in fact, in two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: new evidence comes out that finds like genetic material of
Speaker 1: someone who's not any of the three victims around the
Speaker 1: bodies of the victims and was not any of the
Speaker 1: defendants either, um, which you know. Anyway, the case they
Speaker 1: appeal and ship like the case winds up, it takes
Speaker 1: until again this happens in night. It's not until two
Speaker 1: thousand ten that the people in the case are able
Speaker 1: to negotiate a plea bargain. Like, they don't even get
Speaker 1: declared innocent, like which you would think. Instead they have
Speaker 1: to enter an Alfred plea and which they assert their
Speaker 1: innocence but also acknowledged that the prosecutors had enough evidence
Speaker 1: to convict them and they get sentenced to time served,
Speaker 1: both having served like eighteen years um or all having
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's right, that's a lifetime you know. Yeah, yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's horrible. It's horrible. It's a horrible, horrible story, Jake.
Speaker 1: The thing is as well, this sounds dumb, but I
Speaker 1: was just thinking, like, now, if a real Satanic group
Speaker 1: came out, they could just be like, no one's gonna
Speaker 1: believe that we did this, you know, like off the
Speaker 1: off the Satanic Panic, like it's fine. Well, let's saying
Speaker 1: that it would probably create a news Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: all right, listen up, devil worshippers, you've got you've got
Speaker 1: a window here. No no, Jakenrahan says, start committing crimes now, Jake,
Speaker 1: this has all been a real bummer, just not a
Speaker 1: great time. Um. And I want to end on something
Speaker 1: that is at least kind of funny. So one of
Speaker 1: the major spreaders of the Satanic Panic, one of like
Speaker 1: the people who was responsible nationwide for getting a lot
Speaker 1: of this nonsense out was friend of the pod Oprah Winfrey, um, who,
Speaker 1: boy howdy, had a lot of people on to say
Speaker 1: to tell leward lies about the things they've supposedly done.
Speaker 1: But during one of these times, she actually had a
Speaker 1: member of the Church of Satan on her show, and
Speaker 1: a guy in the audience started claiming that he had
Speaker 1: been a Satanist and had like murdered somebody as part
Speaker 1: of a Satanic ritual. And you actually this guy got
Speaker 1: cross examined by the Satanist that Oprah had on stage.
Speaker 1: And it's fucking great, and I'm gonna I'm gonna see
Speaker 1: you that video. Now we're gonna end on that note
Speaker 1: because it's actually kind of funny. It's very, very funny.
Speaker 1: So what happened in the in the in the ritual
Speaker 1: where someone was murdered and how were they murdered? Uh,
Speaker 1: they were stabbed seven times with with nice because it
Speaker 1: was what here eight years ago, So it was about
Speaker 1: and so rich was a witch? Is seventh and it
Speaker 1: got out of hand and the High priest brought out
Speaker 1: these seven daggers and the person in the form of
Speaker 1: a cross with the seven daggers. Um, was this person
Speaker 1: impaled against his or her will? They won't wished to
Speaker 1: be sacrificed. You know that this was against his will? Um?
Speaker 1: But so how did you know you were you weren't
Speaker 1: going to be pulled in and impaled. That's why I
Speaker 1: got That's one of the reasons why I got out
Speaker 1: of the church. And the other reason why I got
Speaker 1: out of the church was mentally, I had a nervous
Speaker 1: breakdown after that and I just mentally could not handle it.
Speaker 1: How do you explain that? My first question would be,
Speaker 1: were you a member of the Church of Satan, a
Speaker 1: card carrying member of the Church of Satan? And who
Speaker 1: was the grotto leader? I don't remember his name. You
Speaker 1: don't remember the name of a person who involved you
Speaker 1: in murder? Not anymore now. Like I said, I had
Speaker 1: had a nervous breakdown and I have partial amnesia. Man,
Speaker 1: that is excellent, And then gave him a car to say, yeah, actually, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: The guy that is cross examine him looks like Dracula,
Speaker 1: looks like and he's like, no, this is stupid, and
Speaker 1: he's he's very like methodical and lawyerly about how he
Speaker 1: cuts that guy's claims apart. It's great. Yeah, yeah, So Jake,
Speaker 1: how do you feel about the devil Um? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I need a shower now, I think, like a long one,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? After all that's pretty grim. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But again, like it's like I said before, like you
Speaker 1: call all of that is like very interesting, and there
Speaker 1: are some groups around, but this stuff just makes it
Speaker 1: all look stupid. And God knows how many horrible crimes
Speaker 1: slipped through the crux, you know what I mean, or
Speaker 1: maybe will or I don't know. It's just it's just
Speaker 1: so outrageous that that kind of hysteria took over through
Speaker 1: the police as well. It's not our rageous, but you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, it's just another thing of just
Speaker 1: like wow, great job you can find. There are some
Speaker 1: cases of like ritual murders, like we talked, very very few.
Speaker 1: It is a thing that has happened in history in
Speaker 1: this country and in other countries. Like it's not a
Speaker 1: thing that never occurs. But it's not what they claimed
Speaker 1: it was, right, there's no gigantic international network of Satanists
Speaker 1: murdering children for devil powers. Yeah, and it often the
Speaker 1: occult stuff is actually nothing to do with the devil. Actually,
Speaker 1: there's very few actual Sate worship yeah, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, And most Satanists aren't Satan worshippers because
Speaker 1: it usually means something completely different. To them than like
Speaker 1: or yeah, I mean there's alread yeah, there's there's a
Speaker 1: bunch of different like I don't want to Like I've
Speaker 1: known Satanists who like spoke pretty eloquently about like why
Speaker 1: they called themselves that, and it wasn't like a worship
Speaker 1: the devil thing. It was like yeah, but yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like sometime often or whatever. Yeah, it's fine. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's I think the best thing about this, like
Speaker 1: like you know, when you were talking about us, thinking, man,
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear this, and that made me think, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really why you should have to hit do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? It's such a demonstration of mass
Speaker 1: hysteria and not even failure, but like almost like the
Speaker 1: authorities are trying to make it worse. It was so bad,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, And the idea I think
Speaker 1: that won't happen again, Like, oh it happened, that can
Speaker 1: happen any time. It'll happen anytime. Like there's always shades
Speaker 1: of this every time, Like there's shades of this and
Speaker 1: sort of the panic that was erupting over Antifa earlier,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be shades of it in the boogaloo stuff.
Speaker 1: There's gonna be shades of it, and I mean human
Speaker 1: on it is not just shades of it went onto
Speaker 1: descendant of it, but like several shades of ship. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it never like it's the kind of thing. There's a
Speaker 1: bunch of things. If you're a responsible member of society
Speaker 1: or a responsible society, you always have to be on
Speaker 1: guard for fascism is one of them, you know, which
Speaker 1: or another. It's what it is, right, it's a modern
Speaker 1: day which one actually, yeah, like almost, I mean this
Speaker 1: was a literal which they were looking. Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 1: I'm I never knew how unreal how many people like
Speaker 1: you're talking about probably somewhere around a thousand people harmed
Speaker 1: one way or the other by Justina case right, almost
Speaker 1: four kids, but like also like all these business family members.
Speaker 1: God knows what problems those kids having their lives now
Speaker 1: as well, that kind of abused by the authority. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're if you were a McMartin kid who like
Speaker 1: went through all this like hit us, hit us up.
Speaker 1: I'm really curious about right. Yeah. Uh so, Jake, do
Speaker 1: you want to plug things? Yeah? Man, definitely, people should
Speaker 1: definitely listen to the new one clearance basically trying to
Speaker 1: trying to bring everyone together, to kind of put the
Speaker 1: story of put Chewing On together, but at the same
Speaker 1: time going to be like, you know, by the end,
Speaker 1: I want to be like, this is absolutely we think
Speaker 1: it isn't his wife, you know what I'm saying. Um.
Speaker 1: And yeah, also popular Fronts my platform, independent journals and
Speaker 1: just search Popular Fronts and you'll find it all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: check it out. Check out Jake's new podcast, check out
Speaker 1: Jake's old podcast, Find Jake on the Street. No, don't
Speaker 1: do that podcast. We're done.