WEBVTT - Jeff Mingay 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.639 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.040 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball in. 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:09.600 A bride egg, Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida Egg, 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:12.000 Frida bride egg. 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.240 Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.760 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:46.640 Friday Egg Podcast. Today we will dive back into the 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.240 architecture world and we are joined by Jeff Minge. Jeff 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:57.240 is an architect based out of Canada. He's done extensive 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.320 work in the Pacific Northwest and also in Vancouver as 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.960 well as he's starting to do some in Minneapolis. 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.800 He got to start with Rod. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.600 Whitman, uh doing some work with three of the you know, 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:16.840 kind of most prolific new courses in Canada, Sagebrush, Cabot 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.600 Links and black Hawk. 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.360 And welcome on, Jeff. 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.000 Oh, thanks for having me, and he appreciate the interest. 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.000 Yeah, we're we're excited to learn a little bit about 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.360 you and kind of your work. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.640 And and and. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.640 All the all the things you know that we don't know, 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.160 all right, So why don't you, why don't you give 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.039 us a little background on yourself and and how you 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:45.200 got into architecture. 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.320 Yeah, I was fortunate to grow up playing golf at 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.560 Essex Golf and Country Club in Windsor, Ontario, which is 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:58.280 just across the river from Detroit. Essex was, uh it's 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:02.480 a Donald Ross course from nineteen twenty nine. Yeah, So 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.040 as a kid, I mean I just took a unbelievable 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.720 interest in the golf course. You know, my my brother 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:10.840 and I joke around occasionally. You know, he was able 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.200 to focus on the ball and the hole, became a 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.280 real good player, and I kind of hit shots and 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.160 then looked around and thought, Man, how'd they build that bunker, 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.400 how'd they build that green? You know, why is the 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.360 golf course laid out this way? I just it was 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.639 just something in me that that, you know, an instinctual 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:34.680 interest in that sort of thing as I looked at 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.360 the course. But then I was lucky too, because my 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.400 dad is an avid book collector, and I used to 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.360 go to his office and look through his bookshelf. And 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.799 it still amazes me that, you know, we're talking back 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.400 in the late eighties when I was a teenager. You know, 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.840 my dad had all the books, he had golf Architecture 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.760 by McKenzie. You know, he had Scotland's Gift by CB McDonald, 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.920 all those classic books. So on top of taking an 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.120 interest in Essex, I had all this literature and all 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.079 these resources that my dad had, and I started reading 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:16.160 all those books, which was fun and educational, and so 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:18.880 I started, you know, I'm sixteen, seventeen years old. I 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.639 started writing letters to architects saying, you know, I want 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.400 to do this. It's a it's a found out, it's 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.120 a real job, and you can do it. And I 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.680 consistently got the same advice from guys I admired, you know, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.600 a young Tom Doak answered my letters. Pete Die Bill Cooor. 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:37.880 You know this is again back in the late eighties 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.000 or early nineties, and I kept hearing that, you know, if 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.960 you want to be a good, a good golf course architect, 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.960 you got to really learn how to build on the 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:51.120 construction of things. You know, anyone could come up with theories, philosophies, 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.560 but if you don't know how to actually implement that 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.040 stuff on the ground, you know, you're not going to 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.280 be as good as you could be. So long story short, 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.720 I subsequent we found out that there was this Canadian 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.480 guy named Rod Whitman, who had worked for Corn Crenshaw, 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:08.800 worked for Pete Dye. You know, he worked in a 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:14.160 way design build method. So I just pastored Rod for 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.160 I can't even remember how long, and he finally called 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:19.560 me up and said, all right, if you want to work, 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.640 I'm doing something at Edmonton. Show up you know, whatever 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.120 date it was, and I jumped on a plane, immediately 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:28.040 lied to him, and I knew how to run a 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:32.480 bulldozer and ended up working for him for ten years. 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.120 So what was it? What was it like when you know, 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.280 he said get on the dozer? 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:38.600 Like? 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.880 What was the first experience? 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.800 That's a funny story. I'm glad you asked it because 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.800 I actually just told this story the other night. When 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.040 I was in Minneapolis. I showed up on site and 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.640 we were the tenth hole at this golf course was 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:56.960 going to play up and over a hill. So the 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.520 objective was to cut the hill down a little bit 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:03.359 to reduced the severity of it up and over tea shot. So, 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.760 first first day on site with Rod, he says to me, 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.440 you've run a bulldozer, right, And I said yes, And 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.760 he said, uh, okay, Well what you need to do 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.920 is cut that hill down, Here's where the tenth tee 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.280 is going to be, here's the here's the line of 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.760 the tea shot. Cut the hill down, take the cut 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.000 material down to the tees, and flatten off. Flatten off 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.080 a teeing area. I said, okay, So he leaves and 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.599 I get in the bulldozer. No clue even had to 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:33.279 start it, run it nothing. I finally found that, finally 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.000 found the key, started it up, started messing around. Rod 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.960 came back, I don't know a couple hours later, and 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.359 he looked at what I'd done, and his first response was, 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:47.240 you've never run a bulldozer before, have you? And I said, uh, yeah, 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.440 you caught me, but uh but we hit it off, 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.760 and he gave me an unbelievable opportunity to to just 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.120 jump into it, you know, literally jump into the fire. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.520 Get on that bulldozer, get on that excavator, get on 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.400 that track here, get on that sand rake, you know, 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.760 and finish the green and you know, it's just just 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.080 I mean, it's the it's the foundation of everything I 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.720 do now and Tholip Golf forever would be grateful to 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.559 him for putting me in that position without any rogers. 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.000 Roger an easygoing guy. That's what's so great about him 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:20.839 and he he just you know, gave me a remarkable opportunity. 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.440 It's interesting. So do you think there's any you know, 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:29.239 I think you know from Keith Rabbit talked about Bill 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.839 Corr being pretty easy going and laid back. 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.320 Do you think is there you know, is are there 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:35.560 common traits. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.960 That you see with with some of the great architects 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.760 that you've you know, been able to meet, and do 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.480 you think there's any common traits that is. 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.359 Certainly one of the traits of guys that that that 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:55.000 I really admire, you know, Rod, Bill, Tom doak Uh, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.279 Gil hansh you know that that whole vein of guys 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.520 and it all, you know, I often think it kind 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.040 of all stems back to Pete Dye, you know, who 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:07.680 who was easy going to You know, if you get 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:09.920 a passion for architecture and you want to work, let's 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.640 go to work. You know, it's not about landscape architecture 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.760 degrees and you know, the certifications and all this stuff. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:19.040 I mean, he's just got to get out there in 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.280 the field and work, and the best work comes from 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:27.320 a sincere passion for architecture. You know. I mean Rod 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.240 always said on our jobs, you know, we'd have a guy. 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:32.560 We'd have a guy come to us like you know, 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.360 offence to anyone, but we'd have a guy come to 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.600 us and say, Okay, I just spent the last six 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.600 years working for Nicholas or working for Palmer, or working 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.520 for this guy, work for that guy. I've been shaping 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.440 for twenty five years. Rod would put that resume aside 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.440 and take the kid who'd never like me like I was, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.560 who'd never been on a project before and just had 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.840 a passion for golf architecture. You know, there's a difference 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.960 between having a sincere passion for golf architecture and simply 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.600 knowing how to shape golf courses. Yeah, you know, and 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.280 I think I think he died recognized that a long 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.520 time ago. You know, Rod, I mean, you know, he 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.560 rot had no experience really when he went to work 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:12.080 for Pete Austin country clubs in the early eighties. You 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.400 know Bill Koor, I mean his background is in like 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:19.920 Greek philosophy or something you know, from college. And Rod too, 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.920 he's got a he's got something like a philosophy degree. 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.720 I studied political science, you know, But we all, we 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.200 all came into the thing with passion, and you know, 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.959 there's a lot to be said about that. But back 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.480 to your question, you have to take an easy going 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.760 attitude to bring to bring people like that into the mix, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.439 you know. And again, all those guys I named are 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.559 just kind of like, you know, don't sweat it. I mean, 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:46.640 we're gonna go out there and we're gonna work hard 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.120 and and uh and get it done with passion. And 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.040 I think that's what you're seeing in a lot of 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.720 architecture these days. You know, you're seeing a lot more 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.839 a lot more passion than you are seeing just business, 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.120 you know, like guys running a business and building courses 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.280 and moving on to an XT course. Who're seeing people 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.400 who really who really care and are really delving into 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.080 it and are really trying to be craftsmen, you know, 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.400 with with their work. So it's it's a it's a 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.000 neat era, you know, it's a neat air to be 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:17.959 involved in. Even though there's not a lot of golf 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.640 courses being built comparatively, there's certainly a lot of quality 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.040 work being done, which is which is really cool. 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.960 I think, Yeah, I'm interested. 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.120 You know, you're a part of this design build movement, 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.600 and it seems like it's a it's a pretty it's 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.520 getting to be more of an even spit split, you know, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.760 like this the design build philosophy. 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.360 Obviously, you know, you spend a lot more time on site. 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:42.080 Do you think that. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:47.560 Gives you obviously an inherent advantage when you're go Yeah, so, 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.839 I mean you learn a lot of the nuances right, 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:53.239 well exactly. 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.880 I mean I'm lucky that when I explain to my 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.640 clients right out of the gate that you know, plans 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:04.600 are entirely conceptual, because, as you just said, when when 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:09.200 you're permitted to spend time on site, things change, you know, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.560 you things change as you're shaping, things change as you 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.880 continue to study the situation and tweak the design. And 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.320 so to charge clients, you know, an incredible amount of 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.640 money to sit in Toronto and design a golf course 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.559 in Seattle is both a waste of time and a 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.960 waste of money. You know, I would rather have my 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.760 clients spend spend money on me being on site, paying 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.360 attention to details as things get built, and then also 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.040 participating in the shaping as well. You know, that's money 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:44.280 well spent. And you know, again, usually that's part of 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.200 my you know, part of my my speel when I 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.560 when I come to a potential client or a new 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.160 client and explain to them that that they're going to 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.120 get the best best results out of that method, Uh, 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.959 simply because you know, you you got to pay attention. 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.679 It's like Ben Crenshaw said, you know what's the most 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:07.200 important thing in golf architecture, and it's time. You know, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.720 you need time to be out there, time to build, 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.560 time to look, time to tweak, you know, and and 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.200 all those sorts of things. And the more time you 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.440 have without wasting time or taking too much time, you 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.120 know you're gonna end up with a with with the 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:24.160 best result possible. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.079 I mean, I know you write a good amount, and 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.080 I think it's a lot like writing is like when 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:33.040 you have the time to really write something and you 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.400 and you keep working on you know things that they 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:37.439 always turn out better. 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.760 Absolutely, And that's that's a perfect analogy, it really is. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.280 But then you just have to find you have to 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.600 find that balance, right because you know, if you think 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:51.080 of an author who just wants to continually refine, refine, refine, 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:55.000 you'll never get the book published. So you know, there's 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.760 a there's a there's a final line of when the 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.560 thinking in the in the tweaking and that changing, you know, 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.400 stops have to stop. It reminds me of a funny 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.920 story Dick Young's cap, who was who's the developer of 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.720 sand Hills. He developed a golf course that Rod actually 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.920 worked on with Pete Dye at Firethorn in Lincoln, Nebraska. 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.920 And we were sitting down at dinner one time with 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.040 Dick Young's cap, and he told the story of Pete 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.000 Die showing up at Firethorn during construction, and every time 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.240 Pete showed up, he wanted to think more, he wanted 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.880 to tweak more, and they were getting close to the 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.079 finish line, and Dick Young's cap, who's got a great personality, 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.040 you know, he finally said, that's it, you're done. We're graphic, 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.679 there's no more changes. Otherwise he felt they were never 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.600 going to finish the golf course. Yeah, so, you know, 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.040 so again there's a there's a bit of a talent 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.760 in realizing that, Okay, we've done all we can. That's done, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.040 because I think, you know, with our artistic minds, I 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.720 think we'd never be done if we didn't have to 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:57.120 be done. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.960 Right, So you've touched on Pete Die a couple of times, 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.240 and you know we're the tours at a Die course 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.760 now and then obviously the players is coming up, and 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.360 we had the heritage at Harbortown. If you were going 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.760 to say, you know, what's the one thing that you 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.560 would take away from Pete Die as an architect that 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.800 you know really kind of like that you admire the most, 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:20.760 what would it be. 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:27.360 Well, I would say the guts and the strength to 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:32.000 be bold with your work. You know, the I deal 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.120 with a lot of client clubs and I just find 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.560 golfers and I say this to my committees and memberships 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.600 that I work with. Golfers are soft these days. You know, 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.160 they want the golf course to cater to them. You know, 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.720 you do something bold, whether it be a deep bunker 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.559 or a big contour or a green or or something, 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.160 and they're they're most of them are upset all the time. 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:57.000 You know, they don't want golf to be golf. And 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.600 you know Pete you know, we all know he actually 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.760 gets some bad rap. I think because you know he 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:06.840 got he got this reputation. At all he did was 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.480 build hard golf courses. I don't believe that to be 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.920 true at all. I find a lot of his golf 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.760 courses to be really fun. But there's always bold features 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.360 out there, you know, that that excite you to play. 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.160 And I just get this sense all the time when 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.440 I'm working at clubs and people want to tone it 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:28.359 down because they don't want to. I mean, it sounds simplistic, 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.160 but I often say they don't want to play golf. 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.000 I mean when you go up, when you go to Scotland, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.400 you go to Ireland, you know, you you see stuff 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.320 that is like bold and hard, and you know, I 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:40.720 got I talked to the pet one time at the 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.720 uh I think it was two thousand and eight PGA 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.280 Championship at Oakland Hills. I just happened to run into 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.120 him and we're talking about things, and you know, he said, 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.880 let me tell you something. I was all excited. He asked, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.480 you know, why do you think people play golf? And 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.960 I thought I was going to get some philosophical answer, 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.600 and he said, simply because it's hard. Yeah, you know, 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.440 part part of the reason you play is because you 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.160 always think you could do better next time, you know, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.800 And you know, and again I really give him a 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.920 lot of credit I think he built his reputation on 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.720 not being afraid to be bold. And that doesn't mean 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.880 make every hole bold or every course bold, but you 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.120 need you need some stuff that's going to excite people, 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.800 want people to come back to play, and it's thrill 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.960 come back to try and yeah, thrills and try to 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.200 try to conquer some things that are that are seemingly difficult, 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:35.720 you know, or are difficult. 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.200 That's why I think so you hit the nail on 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.160 the head with golf in general, Like, you know, the 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.800 thing that keeps you, it keeps everybody coming back, is 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.640 the fact that it's like untacraable, you know, you never 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:50.880 you know, I've played some of the best rounds of 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:52.640 my life and i walk off the course and I'm 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.160 like shaking my head because I'm like, dang, I three 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.200 pointed from twelve feet and you know, it could have 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.320 been could have been even better. And that's like the 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:05.880 beauty of golf is that there's you're never fully satisfied. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.160 Exactly, and it's it's it's challenging these days, you know, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.160 I mean, especially for a guy like me. You know, 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.640 I'm I'm still in the midst of building my career. 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.720 I'm not a dog or a core or even a 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.000 Hants or anything like that yet. But you know, when 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.440 you're working at a club and you see an opportunity 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:28.080 to do something bold, you know, your first thought is, okay, 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.600 how you know, how is this going to be received? 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:32.560 You know, am I going to be? Am I going 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.720 to get fired here? Because I want to do something 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.240 that's got some real character. But you know, and I 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:39.720 follow through because I do think of guys like like 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:44.040 Pete Dye and and other architecture. But you need those 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.720 type of features, you need those types of holes out there. 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.640 But it is it's you know, it's it's a you're 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.440 always thinking about the potential threat when you're when you're 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.400 about to build something that you know is going to 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.000 be controversial. But as you know, I mean, all the 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.320 great holes in the world are are polarizing. You know, 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:03.240 you either love them or hate them. If they were 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.200 if they just shot in the middle, maybe no. 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.960 Good, right, Yep, It's uh, it's it's very true. 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.040 I mean, like Mackenzie thought Cyprus Point was going to 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:17.439 be just maligned, but you know, because of how bold 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.080 he went, and then you know, the natural beauty kind 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:22.440 of over overshadowed everything. 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:23.640 But i'd be interesting. 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:25.720 You know, you you've talked a lot about, you know, 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.040 dealing with memberships, and I know you've you've done a 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.520 lot of you know, restorations and renovations of clubs. Like 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.880 what would you say, you know, would be like the 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:40.399 one thing you wish every membership committee would do, like, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.000 you know, having the experience, Like, what's the one thing 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.400 that like really great membership committees do. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.000 Well? You know, it's kind of like it's kind of 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.400 like Alistair McKenzie. I think it was Alistair mckennee years 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:57.960 ago said that the best number for a committee, the 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:02.200 makeup of a committee is an even numbered less than three, right, 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.120 which is which is one? And it makes me think 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.040 of an experience I had at the Derrek Club. You know, 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:12.680 we in Edmonton, Alberta. We completely rebuilt an existing golf course. 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.840 It's it's basically a new golf course. And they did 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.040 a very nice job of allowing us to deal with 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:24.840 a two person committee. We you know, they they our 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.639 plans were vetted through Green Committee, long Range Planning Committee, 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.320 Board of Directors, but once we got the thing through 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:36.600 the membership, through the club, we simply dealt with two 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:41.800 board members on construction schedule and financing in budget issues. Right, 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.639 So we avoided what is most typical where you know, 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:51.520 you've got twelve people in a room, you can't cut, 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.560 you know, you can't come to consensus. I mean, golfers, 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:59.200 golf architecture is very, very subjective, as you know too. 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.600 Everybody has different opinions and that's fine, it's wonderful. That's 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.360 one of the reasons we have such a great variance 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.360 of golf courses, you know, and variety is so important 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.280 to golf. But when it gets down to it and 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.920 you've and you've hired an expert architect, and you've hired 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.919 you know, you've got an expert super golf course superintendent, 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.920 expert shapers, contractor, I mean, you got to let them 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.200 go to work, can't. You can't have twelve people and 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:30.199 they're putting giving their opinions on every tee, every bunker, 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.400 every green. I mean, it's it's like spinning your tires 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.240 and mud, you know, when you're dealing with that situation. 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.000 So I think I think the Derrek Club, even though 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.080 it's a difficult thing to do politically, the Derek Club 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.159 provides an excellent example of how to just let the 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:49.360 people that you've hired go to work and not not 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:53.600 not have interference with too many design opinions getting thrown 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:54.800 thrown in there. 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.080 Yeah. I think the other aspect of it is, you know, 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:02.719 most members of private clubs are very very successful in 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.840 their trade, you know, and they aren't used to being 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.879 you know, not the boss exactly. 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.159 But the other problem too, like I said earlier, is 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.880 that is that you know, I always use this example. 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:23.080 You know, Jack Nicholas won eighteen professional majors and two 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.560 US Amateurs because he was able to tailor his game 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:31.320 to varying courses, right He when he knew when he 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:33.159 was at Saint Andrews he had to play different than 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.399 he did when he was at Augusta, and he had 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:37.159 to play different when he was at Pebble Beach than 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:40.000 he did then he played at Augusta, you know, et cetera, 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.880 et cetera. That's why he was such a successful champion. 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.359 The problem with so many club golfers is they want 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.040 the exact opposite to happen. They want the golf course 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.920 designed and set up to cater to them. And I'm 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.760 constantly confused by that because as we talked about just 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:00.480 a minute ago, I mean, the attraction to the game 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:06.040 is the challenge. But so many golfers they run from 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.639 the challenge and they just complain about the condition of 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:11.399 the bunkers or the or where the teas were set up, 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:13.560 but where the hole was cut. You know, we all 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:15.720 hear that all the time, and it's just such a 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.760 it's such an ironic thing, you know, when I can 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.680 be a little sarcastic sometimes and I ask people, again, 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:25.520 did you really want to play golf? Or what kind 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.040 of game are you trying to try to create here 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:30.720 that's actually not golf? You know? 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.320 Well, I mean a perfect example is where I play 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.720 in Chicago. I started playing there a couple of years ago, 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.280 and I've I've always been a player that hit a 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:44.080 right to left t shot, and this golf course, like 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.000 you know, it had some shots where you had to move. 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:47.800 The ball left to right. 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.880 And over the over the years I've become so much 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:56.000 more well rounded of a golfer because I've learned and 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.160 been forced to learn how to hit the ball left 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:01.760 to right. And you know example, and it's just it, 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:04.639 that's the way people need to look at these things. 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.280 Is looking at it and saying like, you know, like 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:10.600 if I play a course that really tests certain aspects 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:15.000 of my game, you know, I you know, while still 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.400 being fair, like you know, I think that, and I'm 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.080 you know, like not having nowhere to bail out nowhere 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:23.960 like but like where you have this test, like it's 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:24.480 only going to. 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:29.159 Make you better, right, And I think that's why you know, 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.639 Pete Die has gone to bad rap? Is it he was? 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.359 You know Sawgrass you just mentioned the Players Championship. I 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:42.360 mean Sawgrass is so cool because it's like overkill of 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:45.200 presenting you with varying challenges, you know, if you if 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.680 you actually look, I used to. I learned so much 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.600 Plan TPC, Sawgrass and the old Sega of you know 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.040 video games system years ago, right because they show you 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.720 the overview of the whole. And when you when you 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.240 know a little bit about architecture, you could see that 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:02.359 so many of the holes and so many angles are 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.320 set up, you know, for cut off the tee and 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.959 then draw into the green, you know. And with the 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.480 eighties when the golf course opened, with the eighties clubs 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:15.800 and balls, you know, those those types of shots meant something. 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:18.359 And I think why a lot of those pros back. 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.960 And I'm just being speculative, but my my suspicion is 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.440 that most of those pros out there when when when 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:29.720 Pete did put those that you know, precise challenge out 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:32.200 there and they couldn't hit the shot that was required, 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.760 it just burned him up, you know. And and Pete 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.400 always talked about you get into those guys heads, that's 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.720 when you really got them right. Yeah, and you know 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:43.760 when he was asking him the dude, you know, shape 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:45.720 it this way, shape it that way, hit it low, 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:47.959 hit it high. You know. It's just it's such a 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:50.120 smart design. I mean, I still can't believe he took 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.560 a swamp and ended up with with that. I mean, 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:58.280 it's it's arguably, I mean, I don't want to I 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.000 don't want to overstate this, but I think Sawgrass is 0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:05.960 arguably one of the greatest achievements in golf architecture. You know, 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:09.159 to be first of all, to facilitate golf in what 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.439 was really a swamp, and then to come up with 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:17.720 so many holes that are just you know, fascinating from 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.679 you know the look of the holes, the strategy behind 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:23.080 the holes. I mean, I just got tons of respect 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:26.439 for mister Due and that golf course. And I know 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:28.359 I've kind of argued with a lot of people who 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:30.960 feel differently about it, but that's my opinion. 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:34.359 Yeah, I mean it also the one of the things 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:36.959 that does so well is it doesn't really favor a 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.840 specific type of player. You know that you see a 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:43.399 great variety in the leaderboard and winners there year in 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:47.159 year out, because because you I think that's what he 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:50.639 does so well is that he always you know, there 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:54.760 are always angles and ideal angles. The ideal angles usually 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:57.800 come with a little bit of risk, and then you know, 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:01.000 and then he asked you to hit south and it's 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:03.640 you know, it's very clear, you know what you need 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:05.480 to do, and if you pull it off, you usually 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.240 have a great look at Bertie or Eagle, and if 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:10.280 you don't, you're going to be you know, and you 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:12.320 don't miss it in the right spot, you're going to 0:25:12.400 --> 0:25:16.880 be in a world hurt, right, And. 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:18.960 The sad part about that, I mean, I love the 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:21.200 way you just described that, but the sad part about 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:24.040 that is the way club of ball technology is now 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:28.840 It's taken so much away from from exactly what you 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:33.000 just described, because the ball is just being hit you know, 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:38.240 super high, ye monstrously high and monstrously long. No spin, 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:41.360 you know, no spin, you know, so all that shapen 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:45.640 and high low stuff is gone, and it's just it's 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.320 it's pretty sad, actually, you know when you think about 0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:51.560 how fascinating the game was even twenty thirty years ago. 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:54.000 Yeah, I think about it. 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:57.679 I had Aaron Oberholzer on and he talked about the 0:25:57.720 --> 0:25:59.679 first time he hit a pro V one. You know, 0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:01.760 he was a pro golfer at the time, and he 0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:03.280 was like, holy cow, this is. 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:04.080 So much different. 0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:08.480 And how I mean you look at hey, I think 0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:11.800 it's the pro V one's obviously been the one that's 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:14.000 kind of really changed the game because when it as 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.320 soon as it shifted from professional nineties to those that 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.560 I mean, the spin just year over year has gotten 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:23.359 less and less, and ball goes further and straighter and 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:25.280 skills diminished. 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:29.000 Yeah, and it just it just boggles my mind that 0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:32.080 anyone would think that that's a good thing for the game. 0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:34.520 I just I don't understand it. But you know, I 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:36.920 don't know if you've read it yet, but I just finished. 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.040 I'm friends with Morten Rudstein, who's been a long time 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.400 friend of mine. I was fascinated that he just wrote 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:47.600 that book with Tiger Woods celebrating the ninety seven Masters, 0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:49.800 and so I was, I was slipping through the book. 0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:52.959 It's a great book, actually, and the best part about 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:57.480 it for me is Tiger talking about Augusta and he 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:02.080 he just frankly says that the nineteen ninety seven golf 0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:06.280 course is not even close to the same golf course 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:08.760 they play today when we saw it, when we see 0:27:08.800 --> 0:27:11.720 it on TV. I mean, we watched the ninety seven Masters, 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:14.359 we watched this year's Masters. It looks the same to us. 0:27:14.920 --> 0:27:18.400 But the details that he describes in terms of how 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:20.879 different not only how different the playing equipment is, but 0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:23.200 what they've done to the golf course because of the 0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:27.720 playing equipment, is just fascinating. It's really kind of a 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.280 you know, it's an architectural read in a lot of ways. 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:35.600 And you know, obviously we all know they lengthen the course, 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:42.320 they planted trees, they introduce rough but Tiger's comments on 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.919 how much they've changed the green surfaces and the green 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:50.520 surrounds is interesting because the golf course has gotten so 0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:54.920 much longer. They've apparently flattened out a lot of the 0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:57.639 pin positions, and he says the greens have actually gotten 0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:01.400 a lot less interesting and a lot more subtle over 0:28:01.440 --> 0:28:05.040 the years in the pinnable areas, which which has really 0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:07.639 made the golf course less interesting. He said, it was 0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:10.080 way more interesting when it was shorter and the greens 0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:12.240 were a little bit more severe like they were originally, 0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:15.840 rather than just playing a big long golf course with 0:28:15.840 --> 0:28:18.359 with with more flat areas on the greens. 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:23.080 It's it's interesting, and that book is one that's on 0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:29.240 my list of of to do's, but it's it boggles 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:33.600 my mind how anybody how this theory of tiger proofing 0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:36.800 came about that Like, Okay, we've got this guy that's 0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:39.880 come on tour and he hits it so far, Like 0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:42.200 what we need to do to level the field is 0:28:42.240 --> 0:28:47.160 to make golf courses longer, Like what like that makes 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:48.760 no sense whatsoever. 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:51.840 He admits that in the book too. He says all 0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:54.960 they did was play right into his hands because he 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:57.960 could he could take advantage of his strength, even more 0:28:58.040 --> 0:28:59.840 so the longer the golf course. 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:03.280 Yeah, all you did was just remove And now we 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:03.880 live in this. 0:29:03.920 --> 0:29:08.719 Era where all the golf courses are built for power 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:13.440 players and sure enough, power players dominate. 0:29:13.000 --> 0:29:16.560 The game, right, There's no you don't see any Corey 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:20.160 Pavens around anymore, which which really sucks too. I mean, 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:24.280 I remember following Corey Paven at that that two thousand 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:28.080 and eight PGA championship, and I'll tell you what, you 0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:34.560 you want to watch a fun golfer. You know, Corey's 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:38.560 out there hitting cuts and draws and low high with 0:29:38.680 --> 0:29:41.959 long clubs into those greens because you know, obviously Oakland 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:45.280 Hills was playing really long and I kept thinking to myself, 0:29:45.280 --> 0:29:47.520 you know what if we could watch the good players 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:51.960 do this, Watch Tiger hit a four iron into a 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:55.239 par four and either cut it or faded or hit 0:29:55.280 --> 0:29:58.320 it low. You know. But you then, you know, you'd 0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:01.000 leave Corey Paven at that t thousand and eight PGA 0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:02.960 and go over to the guys on the leader board. 0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:05.400 They hit the drivers. You can't even see the ball, 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:07.880 they hit it so high and so far. And then 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:10.240 they're down there in wedge territory and they in another 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:12.760 high one and plunk it on the green. I mean, 0:30:13.360 --> 0:30:16.280 that's fun to watch. I'd rather watch Ben Hogan and 0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:19.080 Byron Nelson slinging it around, you know. 0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:22.880 Yeah, But That's what I always say to people is like, 0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:25.320 you know, people are like, oh, I'd love to see 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:29.720 you know, DJ Rory and you know Jason Day in 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:32.280 the same group, and it's like, well, they're all the 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:36.120 same player. It's just like with It's just like golf 0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:38.680 course design. What makes a great variety, Like, you know, 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:40.680 I'd like to see a guy like, you know, I'd 0:30:40.680 --> 0:30:41.720 like to see a group. 0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:43.480 That has you know, one of the bombers in it. 0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:46.760 Then you throw in like a Kevin Kissner that's like 0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:49.200 kind of an all around guy, and you throw in 0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:52.240 another guy that that's a shorter hitter that that gets 0:30:52.240 --> 0:30:55.080 it done a completely different way. That that is interesting 0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:58.680 to watch because you see how these different styles of 0:30:58.720 --> 0:31:00.600 play like how they all get it done. 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:02.800 And it's fascinating. 0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:06.080 You know. One of the if people are interested in 0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:09.240 this topic, I mean, one of the great rounds of 0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:12.080 ball striking, shot making. I think one of the last 0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:16.480 great rounds was Nick Faldo in the nineteen ninety six Masters. 0:31:17.320 --> 0:31:20.000 I'll never forget. I don't know if you remember or 0:31:20.040 --> 0:31:23.520 not his shot that he hit from thirteen fairway into 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:27.040 the green. He was on a hook lie, you know, 0:31:27.200 --> 0:31:31.400 severe right to left lie. But he needed to cut 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:34.520 the ball into that green with a back right pin. Ye. 0:31:35.120 --> 0:31:37.440 And I've watched it a million times. He had Fanny 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:39.680 Suison on the bag and they were debating and he 0:31:39.720 --> 0:31:42.080 had it. He had a I can't remember what clubs 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:44.280 he was debating, but he was pulling one club and 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:47.200 talking and ended up pulling another club and he just 0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:51.280 set up over that thing and hit that a bullet cut. 0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:55.520 And they had the camera perfectly behind him, so you 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:57.640 see the trajectory of the ball and he hit this 0:31:57.760 --> 0:32:00.880 beautiful cut off this hook lie. Just like, man, if 0:32:00.920 --> 0:32:03.320 you're a golf fan and our architecture fan, you're like, 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.320 that's that's what you live for, right, that's what you 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:08.480 want to see, and you just don't see it anymore. 0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:12.320 Yeah, it's that's I mean, that's the subtle, subtle ways 0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:15.840 of architecture to really challenge people is give people that, 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:18.200 you know, I think William Flynn was one of the 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:21.200 first that did it, was give you know, call for 0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:24.040 a right to left shot and give them a left 0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:28.320 to right lie. And you know it's, uh, the that's 0:32:28.360 --> 0:32:30.440 a I think that's you know what intrigue. 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:32.160 I think that's what's so cool. 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:35.360 About golf course architecture is all like the little subtleties 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:37.920 that that you guys can do, that can you know, 0:32:38.080 --> 0:32:42.600 really give great players fits. So i'd love you know, 0:32:42.840 --> 0:32:45.520 I know, you know, we've gone on a tangent here 0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:47.640 of professional golf, which isn't the worst thing. 0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:50.480 But we let's get back and let's talk. 0:32:50.320 --> 0:32:53.840 A little bit about your work up in the Pacific Northwest. 0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:57.840 I think you've you've done a lot of work at courses. 0:32:57.360 --> 0:32:58.320 Designed by A. V. 0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:01.640 McCann, which you know, having done you know, a lot 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:03.840 of research, it seems to be one of the more 0:33:03.920 --> 0:33:06.920 underappreciated architects of the Golden Age era. 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:12.640 Yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm you know, I back, Oh 0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:16.520 Jesus must have been. In the late nineties, I visited Vancouver, 0:33:17.200 --> 0:33:19.239 and you know, I'm always making lists if I'm in 0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:21.960 a particular city, what courses do I need to see 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:24.840 in those cities? So I started making a list, and 0:33:24.880 --> 0:33:26.880 I'm a kid from the East obviously, so I hadn't 0:33:26.880 --> 0:33:28.840 spent a lot of time out west at that point. 0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:32.600 I need to see Shaughnessy, I need to see Mariene Drive, 0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:34.640 I need to see the Victoria Golf Club, I need 0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:38.520 to see Roke Colewood. I need to see Capillano. Obviously 0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:41.560 Capillana is the Stanley Thompson course, and then all of 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:43.560 a sudden, all the other ones it was Av McCann. 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:47.360 Av McCann. I'm like, who is this guy? You know? 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:50.880 So I subsequently tracked down a guy named Mike Rist 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:54.400 He's from Vancouver, who had done some remarkable research on 0:33:54.560 --> 0:34:01.480 McCann's life. He immigrated from Ireland, born and raised in Dublin, 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:05.200 came over to Canada and about nineteen twelve I think 0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:09.640 it was, and he was back before he came over. 0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:13.360 He was in the loop with all the big names. 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:16.279 He was a great amateur golfer, so he played he'd 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:19.759 played amateur championships around the British Isles, and he knew 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:23.520 all the guys, you know, John Lowe and all the 0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:26.600 guys of the time who were getting into you know, 0:34:26.680 --> 0:34:30.000 kind of this Renaissance movement golf, that golf architecture, especially 0:34:30.040 --> 0:34:32.440 at the time. So when he got to British Columbia 0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:35.319 there wasn't much golf around. He had the opportunity to 0:34:35.680 --> 0:34:38.759 lay out what is now Royal Cowood in Victoria, where 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:43.120 he lived. He tweaked the Victoria Golf Club where I 0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:47.399 work now, and he based himself out of there too, 0:34:47.480 --> 0:34:52.280 is his all His letterhead was Victoria Golf Club. But anyway, 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:56.520 from those two golf courses, he subsequently laid out courses 0:34:56.520 --> 0:34:59.360 in Seattle, Portland all the way down to San Francisco. 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:02.840 He actually the original designer of the California Golf Club 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:07.360 before Mackenzie and Hunter came in and bunkered it. But 0:35:07.440 --> 0:35:09.919 he did. He worked from nineteen thirteen until he died 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:14.239 in nineteen sixty four. The problem was is that by 0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:18.520 almost by the end of World War Two, most of 0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:22.560 his original designs had really deteriorated. You know, I've found 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.240 that out in the research I've done in the putting 0:35:25.239 --> 0:35:29.560 together the restoration master plans for his courses. You know, 0:35:29.719 --> 0:35:32.680 I'll run into guys, you know, I'll pitch the restoration 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:34.920 of a particular bunker or whatnot, and I'll run into 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:36.680 a member who says, you know, I've been a member 0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:38.879 here for fifty years, I don't remember that bunker ever 0:35:38.960 --> 0:35:43.000 being there. And that kind of supports my theory that, 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:45.799 you know, especially in the Northwest, when the when the 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:48.480 second you know, come out of the depression into the 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:51.160 Second World War. I mean, there were all the young 0:35:51.200 --> 0:35:53.600 guys who would have been on the maintenance crews and 0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:57.000 whatnot were over fighting the war. Nobody was spending money 0:35:57.000 --> 0:35:59.480 on golf courses because of the war and because of 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:02.920 the depressed. So things started to disappear, you know, bunkers 0:36:02.960 --> 0:36:07.919 went away and courses changed a lot. People had really 0:36:08.040 --> 0:36:14.160 forgotten about McCann's prowess and his talents. I mean during 0:36:14.160 --> 0:36:16.640 the nineteen twenties and thirties, if you look at historic 0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:20.359 photos and McCann courses, I mean, they stack right up 0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:24.840 with anywhere else, you know, whether it be Ross tilling has, 0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:27.640 you know, in all the greats who were working in 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:32.600 America at the time as his contemporary. But again, you know, 0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:34.840 the work deteriorated, and by the end of the Second 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:37.479 World War, no one, no one remembered who a Av 0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:41.160 McCann was, or what is what his original golf courses 0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:43.560 were like. And again, the more I delved into his 0:36:43.680 --> 0:36:46.319 life and his work, he was he was. He was 0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:48.400 on part with all all the greats in the twenties 0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:51.400 and thirties. So it's been it's been a real privilege 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:53.279 to have an opportunity to kind of dig all this 0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:55.239 stuff out of the archives and kind of bring some 0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:58.000 attention to to, uh, to McCann's legacy. 0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:01.800 I mean, a lot of your job is being an educator. 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:05.520 It seems like, you know, it's uh, it's interesting. I 0:37:05.640 --> 0:37:10.520 imagine that the Northwest has its own it's constraints, you know, 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:14.520 especially with with trees and everything, more so than almost 0:37:14.600 --> 0:37:16.600 every other any other part of the country. 0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:21.080 Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I mean not not 0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:24.480 only not only are there you know, obviously beautiful trees 0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:26.640 in the Northwest because of the climate. You know, you 0:37:26.640 --> 0:37:31.840 get those big, beautiful Douglas furs, and really the Northwest 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:33.960 is filled with the types of trees you really don't 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:37.479 want to see on a golf course. Most often ye big, big, 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:43.160 big evergreens to cause shade and problems. Well that's what 0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:45.200 I was just going to say. You know. The biggest 0:37:45.280 --> 0:37:48.720 thing that I've had to fight is that sa Holly 0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:51.520 has long And I've got nothing against Sally. I actually 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:53.720 never played there, to be honest with you, but I've 0:37:53.840 --> 0:37:59.799 visited the place and the biggest problem is it's sholly 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:05.680 because of it of its history of hosting championship golf 0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:10.120 it's kind of held. It's kind of become the standard 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:13.560 in the Pacific Northwest. So every time as an architect 0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:16.719 and working with the superintendents I work with, when we 0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:20.600 propose some tree removal, you know, we're always fighting the well, 0:38:20.920 --> 0:38:23.399 holly's a holly, does it? You know? There's a tree 0:38:23.400 --> 0:38:25.520 in the middle of the fairway, it's a holly. The 0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:27.839 greens are surrounded by trees, it's a holly. How come 0:38:27.880 --> 0:38:30.200 they can grow grafts, you know, So we're always we're 0:38:30.200 --> 0:38:34.440 always fighting that supposed standard of Sahlly being a course 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:38.920 that's heavily treed, where trees come into play, where trees 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:42.680 shade greens, and they don't do anything about it. So 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:46.759 I think that's a holly standard has been a real 0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:50.319 issue for us. But we're overcoming it, as you said, 0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:53.560 as we dig out all these historical photos and dig 0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:56.759 out some of McCann's writings, and now people in the 0:38:56.800 --> 0:38:59.440 Northwest are starting to pay attention to what's been done, 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:01.960 you know. As you probably know too, it seems like 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:07.200 golf trends moved east to west in North America. So 0:39:07.719 --> 0:39:10.120 Seattle's obviously going to be, you know, one of the 0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:13.600 last places where the wave of any kind of movement 0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:16.000 gets to in golf. So but people are starting to 0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:19.400 become more conscious of the benefits of tree removal and 0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:23.800 the benefits of being able to see across these golf 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:29.560 courses and appreciate the train and appreciate long views, appreciate 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:33.480 more room to play, appreciate strategies you know, when you 0:39:33.520 --> 0:39:37.359 widen corridors. So you're absolutely right, it is a it's 0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:41.160 a it's a learning process, and a large part of 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:44.440 my job is actually being an educator. But I enjoyed 0:39:44.480 --> 0:39:48.000 I've always enjoyed history. As I said, I studied political 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:51.680 science and history and I've always kind of been historically minded. 0:39:51.760 --> 0:39:54.040 So it's fun to, you know, again, dig out the 0:39:54.080 --> 0:39:57.600 materials and put together the writings and give the presentations. 0:39:57.680 --> 0:40:00.719 And yeah, we made some good progress in the Northwest, 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:01.600 So it's fun. 0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:02.279 I think. 0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:08.560 I think trees make golf easier for good players and 0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:10.560 harder for bad players. 0:40:11.560 --> 0:40:15.560 I agree. You get you get a fair away, that's 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:18.120 that's lined. I know you're a good player. Andy, you 0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:22.239 know you get tree line, tree line right, tree line left. 0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:25.560 You can focus on that target, you know, and and 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:28.640 you guys who are good like that focus. 0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:34.800 There's nowhere you have to think about hitting it. 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:37.319 And as you know, the other people, I mean, how 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:41.319 many fairways do they miss every round? A lot? So 0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:43.480 when you're in a tight tree line golf course, you're 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:45.919 exactly right, easy for the good player and a lot 0:40:45.960 --> 0:40:49.440 more difficult for the higher handicap, which is the exact 0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:52.520 opposite of what the ideal and golf course architecture is. Right, 0:40:53.040 --> 0:40:54.719 you want to golf, You want a golf course to 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:57.040 challenge the best players and at the same time allow 0:40:57.080 --> 0:41:00.239 everyone else to have fun. And you know, and I 0:41:00.320 --> 0:41:03.200 used that argument a lot too, because Av McCann preached 0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:06.799 that forever. One of the most fascinating things I've read 0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:10.840 about from him actually is later in his life a 0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:13.480 kid wrote him a letter. I think it was in 0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:15.920 the He died in sixty four, so I think it 0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:20.400 was in the fifties or early they had late fifties. No, 0:41:20.480 --> 0:41:23.319 I'm sorry, early fifties, because they were in the letter 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:26.080 they were talking about the nineteen fifty one US Open 0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:29.320 at Oakland Hills. You know, when Robert Trent Jones narrowed 0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:31.960 the course, you know, bunkerd the hell out of it, 0:41:32.040 --> 0:41:34.640 and Ben Hogan won and said he conquered the monster. 0:41:34.800 --> 0:41:38.040 You know, it was the first time that you know, 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:41.080 just making a golf course super hard, got a lot 0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:44.120 of publicity and a lot of attention, and McCann was 0:41:44.239 --> 0:41:46.880 totally against that. And the kid asked him, you know, 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:50.520 I want to go into golf architecture. You know, what 0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:52.640 do I need to learn? And he said, well, don't 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:54.799 pay attention to Oakland Hills. All you need to do 0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:58.480 is read the two chapters and Bobby Jones's autobiography about 0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:02.840 the development of Augusta Nashville. You know, he thought that 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:06.080 they achieved the ideal in terms of creating a course 0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:10.160 that challenged the best and catered to the enjoyment of 0:42:10.200 --> 0:42:13.759 everyone else along the line with Saint Andrews, and you know, 0:42:13.800 --> 0:42:17.680 it opened up with twenty two bunkers in nineteen thirty two. 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:21.080 They had big, wide fairways, but they could play the 0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:24.480 masters there, you know. And that's a neat piece of advice. 0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:28.480 I always go back to that McCann quote about who 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:32.080 would think that Bobby Jones's autobiography is an architecture book, 0:42:32.320 --> 0:42:35.160 but it is those two chapters. 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:41.560 It's ironic that you that that same person that kind 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:45.319 of did that to Oakland Hills did the exact same 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:47.880 thing to Bobby Jones's AUGUSTA. 0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:54.000 Yeah, it is interesting. It's also interesting that Bobby Jones 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:56.640 was working with him when he started, you know, change 0:42:56.640 --> 0:43:01.080 in sixteen and eleven and yeah, it's boy, if you 0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:03.480 could bring Jones back and talk to him while working 0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:07.319 with McKenzie and then Trent Jones on that golf course, boy, 0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:09.640 would that be something to listen to. Yeah. 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:13.840 Yeah, I read something about this year that golf WRX 0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:18.840 did an article with Robert Trent Jones Junior and he 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:21.080 was talking about it, and you know, it just had 0:43:21.120 --> 0:43:24.160 me shaking my head the whole time, you know, talking 0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:28.040 about how you know they needed to remove bunkers or 0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:31.280 add bunkers and add water hazards and all this stuff, 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:36.600 and it's like, God, you just don't get it. It's 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:39.200 it's interesting, Like I think, like the runoff areas that 0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:42.720 you see are so becoming so popular now and golf 0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:45.680 like is a perfect example. For like the regular player, 0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:49.759 that fifteen handicap so easy, You grab a putter. 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:51.640 And you put it, you know, But then for the 0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:52.640 for the. 0:43:52.520 --> 0:43:54.680 Better player, you look at it and you were like, 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:57.200 what do I do here? You know, and you're like, 0:43:57.239 --> 0:44:00.359 do I hit a hit a sixty degree? Do I 0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:03.280 hit use like a gap wedge and hit a low checker? 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:06.200 Do I bump it? Do I use a putter? 0:44:06.360 --> 0:44:06.480 Like? 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:09.120 And all that question puts doubt. 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:11.239 Into your head and you and that's when you win 0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:14.680 as an architect against a good players, when you make 0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:18.640 them think and exactly and but for the for the 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:21.880 regular player they and but like when you think about it, 0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:26.799 it's contradictory, like, oh, these runoff areas are easier, but 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:29.400 in actuality they're harder for the good player. 0:44:30.520 --> 0:44:33.919 Exactly. I agree one hundred percent. I mean, I love 0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:37.040 I love short crafts for the for the reasons you 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:40.480 said it's it's it fits into the equation of creating 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:44.040 the ideal and architecture right as you just said, the 0:44:44.719 --> 0:44:47.239 higher handicap they can knock it out of the green 0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:49.560 with the putter probably you know, maybe not close to 0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:51.600 the hole, but at least they're keeping the ball moving 0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:54.840 they're on the green. And then the shot options, the 0:44:54.960 --> 0:45:00.279 tight lies present the challenge for for better golfers. But 0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:03.120 I lately I've been playing the devil's advocate on that one. 0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:06.560 I mean, again, I love short grass, but you know 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:10.239 it's it's architecture in all forms of art, really, but 0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.320 you know, there's always trends in architecture, and I think 0:45:13.640 --> 0:45:16.520 I think sometimes the short grass areas kind of are 0:45:16.520 --> 0:45:18.319 starting to get a little bit out of control, to 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:21.120 be honest with you, you know, everywhere because I run 0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:23.600 into it with members too. Everywhere there's a fall off 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:25.960 off the side of the green. You know, there's always 0:45:26.360 --> 0:45:30.040 a suggestion about putting short grass down there, and as 0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:32.640 I said, I'm not opposed to it. But at the 0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:35.560 same time, I mentioned this earlier. At the same time, 0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:38.480 I think variety is most important. You know, you want 0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:41.400 to have holes where when you miss, sometimes you're a bunker. 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:44.440 Sometimes you got that tight lie on the short grass 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:47.839 like you just mentioned, sometimes you're rough. I mean, it's 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:49.759 still a golf shot, right, that should be part of 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:53.239 the equation to be playing out of two or three 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:55.600 inches of grass too. I mean, you just have to 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:58.879 make sure that it's not happening every time you miss 0:45:58.880 --> 0:46:02.319 a fair way and every time you misagree, that's when 0:46:02.360 --> 0:46:04.920 the golf course gets monotonous. So I think we need 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:08.120 to use all of those hazards, you know, and kind 0:46:08.120 --> 0:46:11.960 of sprinkle them around equitably so that you get all 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:13.360 kinds of different shots. 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:17.319 Yeah, something I don't see a lot of that. 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:20.680 I kind of really like our grass bunkers. 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:24.160 Yeah, you know, it's interesting you don't see them a lot. 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:27.960 I've got an article sitting in front of me right here, 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:31.200 actually because i've been working on this McCann stuff and 0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:34.920 trying to do things minimize bunkers on golf courses. And 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:39.760 there's an article that mackenzie wrote in the Alistair. Mackenzie 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:44.200 wrote the American Golfer magazine in nineteen thirty three, and 0:46:44.560 --> 0:46:47.680 he was talking about how golf courses have too many 0:46:47.680 --> 0:46:52.319 bunkers and actually advocating the use of grass hollows. And 0:46:52.920 --> 0:46:57.000 you're absolutely right. It's in all my travels you rarely 0:46:57.040 --> 0:47:02.040 see grassy hollows. Actually, Bee Die courses you see, you 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:05.719 see a lot of grassy hollows. But it's an interesting 0:47:05.840 --> 0:47:08.120 thing that I put some thought into. I don't know 0:47:08.160 --> 0:47:11.680 if I particularly know how to effectively use them, but 0:47:12.280 --> 0:47:15.959 in lieu of bunkers, it's an interesting thing to think about, 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:17.120 that's for sure. 0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:21.680 I mean it's another example of like for compared to 0:47:21.719 --> 0:47:26.080 a bunker, for like your beginner a grass bunker is 0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:30.640 worlds easier, you know, right, and then for the better 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:32.480 players it's world's harder. 0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:37.680 And most importantly, it's less expensive to build and less 0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:41.000 expenses to maintain. Yeah, yeah, and that's what that's what 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:45.120 mackenzie was advocating back in nineteen thirty three. And that's 0:47:45.200 --> 0:47:48.319 actually a fascinating thing to me right now, you know. 0:47:48.360 --> 0:47:51.799 I mean, I've I've had this dream of one day 0:47:51.800 --> 0:47:54.120 having an opportunity to build a build a bunker this 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:58.000 golf course. I don't even know if it would fly, 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:01.200 you know what, which owner open would let you do it? 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:06.759 And would golfers recognize that you could do something interesting 0:48:07.560 --> 0:48:13.319 and without any sand bunkers. You know. It's just it's 0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:15.120 something I'd love to give a shot to, you know, 0:48:15.239 --> 0:48:20.440 interesting greens, interesting contour in the fair ways, and figuring 0:48:20.440 --> 0:48:22.759 out a way to do it without any bunkers. You know. 0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:25.080 I'd love to take on that challenge someday. 0:48:25.560 --> 0:48:28.600 It's well, like you know, like we've talked a lot 0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:31.560 about Augusta, but I think one of the most overlooked 0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:37.960 great holes out there is the fourteenth and it's bunker less, and. 0:48:36.920 --> 0:48:38.880 I think it would be I think it would be 0:48:39.000 --> 0:48:39.479 very cool. 0:48:39.760 --> 0:48:42.239 I was going to ask you about, you know, what 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:46.000 kind of new architecture ideas or trends get you most 0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:49.279 excited and that kind of feel, you know, doing something bunkerless. 0:48:49.400 --> 0:48:50.799 It could be cool that you could do it. 0:48:50.960 --> 0:48:53.680 You could be as it could be less than eighteen 0:48:53.719 --> 0:48:56.520 holes too, you know it. You'd have to have a 0:48:56.560 --> 0:48:58.720 good piece of land, I imagine, though, right. 0:48:59.360 --> 0:49:01.640 Yeah, exactly, I was just thinking the same thing. 0:49:01.719 --> 0:49:04.680 I mean, a nice, rolling, sandy piece of ground with 0:49:04.800 --> 0:49:08.239 good contour would give you a lot more options than than, 0:49:08.520 --> 0:49:10.759 you know, than a less interesting piece of land, that's 0:49:10.760 --> 0:49:13.000 for sure. But I don't know, I've you know, it's 0:49:13.000 --> 0:49:15.040 going to sound like a sales pitch, but I mean 0:49:15.080 --> 0:49:19.440 I've always been kind of obsessed with with economy, you know, 0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:20.480 in efficiency. 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:25.120 You know, I would rather have someone go play one 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:27.600 of my golf courses and say, geez, did you see 0:49:27.600 --> 0:49:31.319 what what what Minge did for a million dollars, rather 0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:34.120 than say, geez, did you see Minge spend fifty million 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:35.959 dollars on there? And I don't even want to play there, 0:49:36.480 --> 0:49:38.440 you know. So trying to figure out ways to be 0:49:38.480 --> 0:49:43.360 efficient and economic, you know, is a is a very 0:49:43.400 --> 0:49:47.800 interesting challenge to me, and obviously from a from a 0:49:47.840 --> 0:49:50.080 business standpoint, I mean, geez, that's what you should be 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:51.759 providing your clients with, you know. 0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:56.880 Well, it's lessons like especially at a public course, you 0:49:56.920 --> 0:50:00.560 know that all the costs just get passed the consumer, 0:50:01.160 --> 0:50:03.600 you know, And that's why we see two hundred and 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:05.840 fifty dollars green speeds at a lot of these plays, 0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:07.280 Like why is why. 0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:10.359 Does Whistling Straights cost four hundred dollars to play? Well? 0:50:10.400 --> 0:50:13.560 They moved an insane amount of earth to build the 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:18.359 golf course, right, and you know, like you you look 0:50:18.400 --> 0:50:21.000 at other places, like I think one of the things 0:50:21.000 --> 0:50:24.160 that I've been I'm fascinated at from like this kind 0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:28.000 of discussion is the Loop. You know, the Tom Doks 0:50:28.000 --> 0:50:31.200 recent course, and I know Dan Hickson is doing a 0:50:31.239 --> 0:50:34.319 reversible course that opens this year up in Oregon, but 0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:37.080 the idea of two golf courses in one. 0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:40.719 Yeah, absolutely, I can't wait to get to the Loop. 0:50:40.760 --> 0:50:42.719 I tried to get there last summer and I just 0:50:42.840 --> 0:50:44.839 couldn't work out the schedule. But I'm hoping to get 0:50:44.840 --> 0:50:50.280 there this year because it is it is a fascinating concept, amazing. 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:53.280 I actually looked at a piece of ground in British 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:55.759 Columbia to redo it existing golf course that had this 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:59.200 similar potential. Unfortunately, the project did go ahead, but I 0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:02.440 pitched it to the the owner there, and you know, 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:06.239 he was quite confused by the by the idea, you know, 0:51:06.320 --> 0:51:09.239 And I remember hearing Tom Doaks say that that he'd 0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:12.000 been considering that. He may he may have said this 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:15.440 to you, and you talked to him recently. But you know, 0:51:15.520 --> 0:51:18.120 a lot of people wouldn't get that concept. You have 0:51:18.239 --> 0:51:21.160 to find the right owner who's willing to take on that, 0:51:22.040 --> 0:51:25.880 you know that. I guess it's just an oddity that 0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:28.799 a lot of people wouldn't wouldn't quite get. So it's cool. 0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:31.600 That's cool that they gave Calm an opportunity to do that. 0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:33.799 I can't think about a better guy to give it 0:51:33.840 --> 0:51:35.800 a shot, to be honest with you, I'm sure it's great. 0:51:37.120 --> 0:51:39.160 Frank Pont actually a friend of mine who's based in 0:51:39.239 --> 0:51:42.839 Amsterdam over in Europe. He's working on two projects where 0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:45.480 he's he's going to be doing reversible courses over there 0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:47.960 in the Netherlands. So I don't know, maybe it's going 0:51:48.040 --> 0:51:49.719 to become a bit of a trend, and I don't 0:51:49.719 --> 0:51:51.759 think it'd be a bad thing in spots that we 0:51:51.800 --> 0:51:52.600 can figure it out. 0:51:53.080 --> 0:51:55.960 Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, you know, like 0:51:56.760 --> 0:51:59.800 especially for a resort, you know, like it gives somebody 0:51:59.800 --> 0:52:02.279 as to stay an extra day, you know, if you're 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:04.960 trying to build destination golf. I think it would make 0:52:04.960 --> 0:52:07.080 a lot of sense for a members course too, because 0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:09.480 you get a lot you know variety. 0:52:10.600 --> 0:52:14.480 Yeah. Absolutely, but again, well again we're fighting the North 0:52:14.520 --> 0:52:19.160 American mentality of I mean, you know, I see things 0:52:19.200 --> 0:52:21.440 like they don't want you know, members of golf clubs 0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:24.520 complain if you move the team markers back and or forth. 0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:26.880 You know, they always want to play that hole at 0:52:27.080 --> 0:52:29.600 one hundred and sixty seven yards. If you set up 0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:31.400 at one hundred and thirty seven, they walk up and 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:35.120 say why they watch move the teas up. So we're constantly, 0:52:35.520 --> 0:52:41.239 you know, fighting to create that type of stuff when 0:52:41.280 --> 0:52:45.480 people don't at variety. You know, again going back to 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:48.240 the start of our conversation, they don't want to challenge, 0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:50.720 they don't want it to be different. It's it's it really, 0:52:51.600 --> 0:52:54.919 it's really mind boggling to be the way some golfers think. 0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:59.840 Something I've started to do in non like stipulated rounds. 0:53:00.440 --> 0:53:03.200 Is I just play whatever tea box I want to play, 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:07.799 you know, And I've just decided that, like, why do 0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:09.120 I have to play. 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:12.080 A specific te box on a specific day, Like, you know, 0:53:12.200 --> 0:53:12.520 if I. 0:53:12.480 --> 0:53:14.680 Want to play a par five up and make it 0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:17.439 a completely different hole than what it is I play 0:53:17.480 --> 0:53:20.000 the majority of the time, why not if I don't 0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:22.480 want to hit it, you know, like if it's into 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:23.879 the wind and I don't want to have to hit 0:53:23.960 --> 0:53:26.640 like a punch three wood on a par three, I'll 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:28.759 move up and hit a different shot, you know. It's 0:53:28.800 --> 0:53:31.440 like or if I want to move back, like I 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:34.360 just I think that's one of the problems with the 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:38.480 game is that we've become so it's become so focused 0:53:38.560 --> 0:53:43.000 on score and tease and handicap, and that's what needs 0:53:43.040 --> 0:53:45.200 to be let go because at the end of the day, 0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:48.320 it's just about having fun. It's like, like the most 0:53:48.440 --> 0:53:50.640 fun times I've had on a golf course is like 0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:53.440 when you just peg it, you know, and there are 0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:54.759 no te markers out there. 0:53:55.600 --> 0:53:58.840 Yeah, you know, that's It just reminds me of another 0:53:58.920 --> 0:54:03.360 amazing content that hasn't been attempted again, and that's George 0:54:03.400 --> 0:54:08.480 Thomas's La South, you know Los Angeles Country cub South Course. 0:54:09.320 --> 0:54:12.719 When Thomas designed it in the in the mid twenties, 0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:16.080 his concept was to create a course within a course, 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:19.480 so that golf course and I know that Gil Hanson 0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:23.480 and Jeff shakov are recently stored a lot of those concepts, thankfully, 0:54:23.560 --> 0:54:26.200 but Thomas wanted you to go out there and basically 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:30.680 create enough tea options and enough options to set the 0:54:30.760 --> 0:54:33.799 pins that you're basically every day you're out there, you're 0:54:33.840 --> 0:54:37.080 playing a different golf course. The holes aren't even close 0:54:37.120 --> 0:54:40.040 to the same because of the options you have in 0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:42.600 terms of the way you set it up. And really 0:54:42.640 --> 0:54:46.000 that just derived from the old course, right, you know, 0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:48.880 the old course gives you a lot of room to flex. 0:54:48.920 --> 0:54:51.680 The distances of the holes and the greens are so 0:54:51.920 --> 0:54:54.879 big that you know, you can take the pins far right, 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:58.640 far left, up front in the back then the wind 0:54:58.680 --> 0:55:01.600 starts blowing. I mean, of course, is the epitome of 0:55:01.600 --> 0:55:05.200 course within a course, and it's it's a really neat 0:55:05.280 --> 0:55:09.080 concept that I think that needs to be resurrected when 0:55:09.080 --> 0:55:10.360 we have those opportunities. 0:55:10.719 --> 0:55:11.160 Yeah. 0:55:11.239 --> 0:55:15.160 Yeah, if there's all kinds of little things you can 0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:18.920 do so I'm curious. You know, we've talked a ton 0:55:19.000 --> 0:55:25.320 about kind of Golden Age architects. What if you were gonna, 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:30.160 uh kind of create like your ideal architects using like, 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:33.400 you know, the different different skills, like you know, routing 0:55:33.480 --> 0:55:35.920 bunkers of of you know, it could be current, it 0:55:35.920 --> 0:55:40.480 could be uh, Golden Age architects. How would you construct 0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:43.880 the architect whether it be like routing, bunkering greens. You know, 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:46.000 if we put it into like, you know, three or 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:48.440 four categories, you. 0:55:48.440 --> 0:55:50.520 Mean, who would be in charge of each category? 0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:50.839 Yeah? 0:55:51.800 --> 0:55:56.120 Oh, holy cow, that's uh, that might be one of 0:55:56.160 --> 0:56:01.200 the best questions I've ever been asked. Well, you know, 0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:05.880 I mean I go back to my childhood and it 0:56:05.920 --> 0:56:09.000 didn't take me very long to realize how great Donald 0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:14.480 Ross was at routing golf courses. You know, absolutely fantastic. 0:56:15.080 --> 0:56:17.120 Rarely do you see a Ross course where the routing 0:56:17.160 --> 0:56:19.799 has been changed because you can't really improve upon it. 0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:26.480 So maybe I'd give Ross the routing. Well, I probably 0:56:26.520 --> 0:56:29.359 I probably sound like a lot of my a lot 0:56:29.400 --> 0:56:33.759 of my contemporaries here, but I might put Perry Maxwell 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:37.640 in charge of the greens. You know, he's I mean, 0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:41.479 Perry Maxwell Green's. The best ones are just stuff the chart, 0:56:41.560 --> 0:56:51.400 good prairie dunes and whatnot. Cheef bunkers. I'm trying to say, 0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:53.640 you know, you know what I like about bunkering is 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:57.360 I like variety. I mean, I think on all my projects, 0:56:57.440 --> 0:56:59.759 I try to bring a different bunker style to each 0:56:59.840 --> 0:57:02.640 one because I think that, you know, obviously, the bunkers 0:57:02.640 --> 0:57:05.560 are one of the biggest visual aspects of any golf course. 0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:10.200 And Bill Koor and Ben Crenshaw in there, guys Jeff Bradley, 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:14.480 Dave Axcellen, they've done such a good job resurrecting, you know, 0:57:14.600 --> 0:57:20.880 a great naturalistic Tom Simpson style of bunkering that I 0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:25.120 think there's been too many copycats. I was going to say, 0:57:25.360 --> 0:57:27.640 I put Tom Simpson in charge of the bunkering, but 0:57:27.840 --> 0:57:30.000 you know, right now, I think we need to we 0:57:30.040 --> 0:57:34.200 need a kind of a renaissance and bunker style. We 0:57:34.280 --> 0:57:37.320 got to get away from that kind of blowout look 0:57:37.400 --> 0:57:40.800 and start looking at some different things. But that being said, 0:57:41.760 --> 0:57:45.800 I might put Coorn in charge of the bunkers, either 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:51.880 him or Tom Simpson. So there you go, running greens bunkers. 0:57:52.240 --> 0:57:56.000 Yeah, that's that's uh, that's a formidable three That's the 0:57:56.040 --> 0:57:57.200 thing I like. 0:57:57.160 --> 0:57:58.320 About the core Crenshaw. 0:57:58.400 --> 0:58:01.360 What they do is that the VERI and the and 0:58:01.400 --> 0:58:04.040 the bunkers, like we've talked about, it's like so many 0:58:04.080 --> 0:58:08.320 different shapes and sizes and different placements. Like they aren't 0:58:08.320 --> 0:58:10.439 afraid to just throw a bunker right in the middle 0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:12.840 of a fairway, Like I love that, and I hate 0:58:12.840 --> 0:58:17.120 when people like are afraid to do that right because 0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:18.680 that's right where you want to hit the ball. 0:58:19.640 --> 0:58:23.080 That's what makes it interesting. I've often got that comment 0:58:23.280 --> 0:58:25.200 at the clubs I work out. We just restored a 0:58:25.240 --> 0:58:28.720 center fairway bunker off the tee at over Lake in Seattle, 0:58:28.760 --> 0:58:31.920 and we brought the committee out to to show them 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:34.640 what we were up to. And one of the first 0:58:34.640 --> 0:58:36.280 comments I got and is why would you put a 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:38.120 bunker there? That's right where I want to hit it? 0:58:38.840 --> 0:58:41.720 And my response was immediately to say, that's the point, 0:58:42.040 --> 0:58:44.440 as you just suggested. You know now that now that 0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:46.400 there's a bunker right where you wanted to hit it, Okay, 0:58:46.440 --> 0:58:48.680 well now things are gonna get get get fun right. 0:58:48.720 --> 0:58:51.160 Can I carry it? Should I play short? Should I 0:58:51.200 --> 0:58:53.479 play left? Should I play right? You know now you've 0:58:53.600 --> 0:58:57.120 now you've Golf's an inherently physical game, as we know, 0:58:57.240 --> 0:59:00.920 and if you could bring a mental element into into 0:59:00.960 --> 0:59:03.760 the equation, you know, it's going to become more interesting 0:59:03.800 --> 0:59:05.240 if you take the right attitude to it. 0:59:06.320 --> 0:59:09.960 It's uh, I think it was Mackenzie said, like the bunker, 0:59:10.680 --> 0:59:15.520 a hazard should always be on the intended line of play, right, 0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:16.760 and you know. 0:59:17.080 --> 0:59:20.080 The most way to describe what I just said, You're right. 0:59:20.520 --> 0:59:24.720 It's amazing how these those those old school architects had 0:59:24.800 --> 0:59:27.160 like a I think Riley was talking about it, and 0:59:27.200 --> 0:59:30.720 it they're how concisely they could describe things. 0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:31.280 You know. 0:59:32.640 --> 0:59:33.560 Yeah, that's a good point. 0:59:33.920 --> 0:59:34.320 It's uh. 0:59:34.720 --> 0:59:36.680 I think they were just a little bit more blunt 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:39.480 and not afraid of what, you know, what they were saying. 0:59:39.640 --> 0:59:42.400 You know, that could be part of it, no doubt. 0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:46.040 So we got a ton of really great Twitter questions 0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:49.480 I wanted to get to and you're you're a big 0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:55.120 music fan, so uh KVOY wanted to know, you know, 0:59:55.880 --> 0:59:59.160 has how has music influenced your work on the golf course? 1:00:00.800 --> 1:00:04.920 That's a that's a great question. I would say firstly 1:00:05.000 --> 1:00:08.600 that you know, most parts of my life are inspired 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:12.600 by music. I tend to have headphones on all the time, 1:00:12.680 --> 1:00:16.920 I again take just take inspiration from all kinds of genres. 1:00:16.960 --> 1:00:20.320 You know, my tastes and music vary from you know, 1:00:20.400 --> 1:00:22.720 I'll be listening to the Doobie Brothers and I'll be 1:00:22.760 --> 1:00:25.000 listening to Public Enemy that i might be listening to 1:00:26.280 --> 1:00:29.120 a metal band you know that I'm interested in. So 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:33.160 when I'm out on a golf course shaping, usually I 1:00:33.240 --> 1:00:35.600 usually have my music going. And again, I just kind 1:00:35.600 --> 1:00:38.560 of feel, I feel good about things when I'm listening 1:00:38.560 --> 1:00:40.800 to what I want to listen to and I think artistically, 1:00:40.840 --> 1:00:43.800 it just becomes inspiring and puts me in the right 1:00:43.920 --> 1:00:47.640 frame of mind to be creative and and being being 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:50.240 the right mood to do to do good work. 1:00:50.360 --> 1:00:55.640 So yeah, you got to have the right mindset for anything, you. 1:00:55.600 --> 1:00:58.640 Know, absolutely every aspect of life. 1:00:58.720 --> 1:01:03.560 I feel like, So, uh, let's see, uh, you know, 1:01:03.680 --> 1:01:06.680 we're going to transition to a musical artist who had 1:01:06.680 --> 1:01:10.800 a question for you, Micah Iration wants to know template 1:01:10.800 --> 1:01:12.720 holes limiting or. 1:01:12.680 --> 1:01:14.120 Are they a great starting point? 1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:21.400 Geez, that's a good question too. I would never call 1:01:21.440 --> 1:01:25.960 them limiting because you know, the great template holes really 1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:30.120 really give us, you know, you know, they easy easily 1:01:30.160 --> 1:01:34.800 explain architectural concepts and philosophies that have stood the test 1:01:34.840 --> 1:01:38.479 of time and have worked and you know, make make 1:01:38.880 --> 1:01:42.560 golf holes and golf courses, you know, be what they be, 1:01:42.680 --> 1:01:45.720 what they should be. But on the other hand, I 1:01:45.720 --> 1:01:48.000 think we got to be careful that we're not just 1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:55.600 going around copying. You know. Another thing that I've been 1:01:56.080 --> 1:01:59.240 kind of critical of is you know there's been a 1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:01.720 lot of talk of like the Lacy bunker edges. I mean, 1:02:01.920 --> 1:02:04.440 there's been a lot of DAN talk, you know, in 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:09.280 architecture in recent years, you know, where everybody's always talking 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:13.200 about using side slopes to help people kick balls onto greens, 1:02:13.240 --> 1:02:15.760 and hey, that's cool there. DAN is one of the 1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:19.360 most exciting Part three concepts there there is, and time 1:02:19.440 --> 1:02:22.280 has proven that. But you know, we don't want to 1:02:22.280 --> 1:02:25.000 overkill anything, right, we go back to the word variety. 1:02:26.040 --> 1:02:29.440 So when when the when when the template concept presents 1:02:29.440 --> 1:02:34.320 itself in a certain piece of ground or a certain situation. 1:02:34.440 --> 1:02:36.480 I mean it's hard to ignore it because again, you 1:02:36.560 --> 1:02:39.320 know that those concepts work really well, But I think 1:02:39.360 --> 1:02:41.840 we got to be careful not to not to overdo 1:02:41.880 --> 1:02:43.680 it too. I think that makes sense. 1:02:43.920 --> 1:02:47.120 No, No, I think that's I think I'm a huge 1:02:47.480 --> 1:02:51.240 Rainer McDonald fan. And you know, I've had the lucky 1:02:51.280 --> 1:02:54.840 opportunity to have played Short Acres, one of Rainer's best courses, 1:02:55.000 --> 1:02:57.280 you know, probably closer. 1:02:57.200 --> 1:02:58.200 One hundred times. 1:02:58.800 --> 1:03:01.040 And you know, you think about the golf course, and 1:03:01.080 --> 1:03:04.240 he uses a lot of great templates, but the best 1:03:04.320 --> 1:03:07.360 holes on the golf course are the non template holes 1:03:07.400 --> 1:03:12.800 because he was given this beautiful land and this unbelievably 1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:16.280 unique land and he and he created unique golf holes that. 1:03:16.200 --> 1:03:16.960 Fit the land. 1:03:17.280 --> 1:03:20.880 And I think that's where you can't allow the templates 1:03:20.920 --> 1:03:23.760 to you know, be in a box like you know, 1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:26.800 and but like if you were given a dead flat 1:03:26.840 --> 1:03:29.880 piece of land and you did all template holes, it 1:03:30.000 --> 1:03:31.320 probably turned out really good. 1:03:33.480 --> 1:03:36.400 Yeah. Well, you know, Chicago is a good example of that, right, 1:03:37.720 --> 1:03:40.840 really good example of that. And I think, you know, 1:03:42.760 --> 1:03:45.680 maybe a Chicago aside. I think one of the reasons 1:03:45.720 --> 1:03:48.640 that McDonald Rainer templates worked so good is that they 1:03:48.640 --> 1:03:52.640 were so good at fitting those concepts to the existing terrain. Yeah, 1:03:53.520 --> 1:03:57.160 you know, they would find the table top ridge that 1:03:57.280 --> 1:03:59.560 tilted right to left like at the National you know 1:04:00.120 --> 1:04:04.160 Dan Green on it, or find a find a hill 1:04:04.400 --> 1:04:07.400 to tuck the alp screen behind an existing hill. I'm 1:04:07.400 --> 1:04:10.200 not a constructed hill, so you know, I think when 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:15.400 it comes across as being natural rather than forced as 1:04:15.440 --> 1:04:18.400 a preconceived idea or concept, I think it works a 1:04:18.440 --> 1:04:20.960 lot better. Although I do love Chicago Golf Club too. 1:04:21.280 --> 1:04:25.360 Yeah, yeah, it's uh, I'm getting out there in in 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:27.960 a couple of weeks, so I'm I'm excited about that. 1:04:29.120 --> 1:04:29.680 You should be. 1:04:30.000 --> 1:04:33.600 Yeah, I've locked it, but it's uh, it's a big 1:04:33.640 --> 1:04:35.680 bucket list one I'm getting. 1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:39.680 Off the list. So so, you know, I know. 1:04:39.600 --> 1:04:42.800 You've been spending a lot of time in Minneapolis, talk 1:04:42.840 --> 1:04:45.280 about a little bit about the GoF city Minneapolis. 1:04:45.280 --> 1:04:46.640 I feel like it's a little bit under the. 1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:52.320 Radar, I I would say so. I Yeah, I've been 1:04:52.320 --> 1:04:54.360 hanging around and working at Town and Country Club for 1:04:54.360 --> 1:04:57.120 the last year and a half working on a master plan, 1:04:57.200 --> 1:05:01.040 and Bill Larson, the superintendent the country Club, has been 1:05:01.280 --> 1:05:07.760 really He's given me an incredible tour of all most 1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:12.240 of the courses around Minneapolis Saint Paul, and I would 1:05:12.280 --> 1:05:14.240 go so far as to say that, you know, as 1:05:14.240 --> 1:05:16.920 far as the depth of great golf courses on the 1:05:17.000 --> 1:05:20.640 list of courses there, it's it's one of the deepest 1:05:20.640 --> 1:05:23.400 lists I've ever seen. I mean, there are extraordinary courses 1:05:23.440 --> 1:05:26.160 in that city that no one's ever heard of. One 1:05:26.160 --> 1:05:29.320 of my favorite places there that many people probably haven't 1:05:29.360 --> 1:05:33.120 heard of his Somerset Country Club, which is in Saint Paul. 1:05:33.200 --> 1:05:36.880 And it's one of SETH. Rayner's first golf courses. I 1:05:36.920 --> 1:05:40.400 think it dates back to I think it's pre nineteen twenty, 1:05:40.520 --> 1:05:45.640 nineteen nineteen or so. Wonderful setting, wonderful clubhouse, great course, 1:05:45.960 --> 1:05:48.240 all the template holes in there. One of the craziest 1:05:48.440 --> 1:05:53.480 dans I've ever seen is at Somerset Country Club. Yeah, 1:05:53.480 --> 1:05:55.440 and then you got I mean White Bear Yacht Club, 1:05:56.120 --> 1:05:58.680 which is up in White Bear, Minnesota, which is not 1:05:58.800 --> 1:06:02.080 today twenty thirty minute drives from Saint Paul. I would 1:06:02.120 --> 1:06:04.560 put White There Yacht Club maybe in my top five 1:06:05.240 --> 1:06:07.720 of course as I've ever played. Wow, that's how good. 1:06:07.920 --> 1:06:11.400 That's how good. It is just a wonderful piece of 1:06:11.480 --> 1:06:15.720 land in a wonderful setting, real lay a layout of land, 1:06:16.400 --> 1:06:19.880 golf course. And then you've got you know, you've got Minnicotta, 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:24.680 which has hosted a lot of championships. Interlocking there's a 1:06:24.680 --> 1:06:28.880 great old Donald Ross course near Lake Minatonka. I think 1:06:28.960 --> 1:06:31.720 it's called Woodhill. You know a lot of places like 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:34.640 that that are kind of, as you said, under the radar, 1:06:34.720 --> 1:06:39.600 but just off the chart. Good Midland Hills, another Rainer course. 1:06:39.840 --> 1:06:41.880 I mean, I could keep going and going. It's what's 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:43.960 a deep list of a really great golf. 1:06:44.120 --> 1:06:49.440 Have you played Northwoods up in Duluth. 1:06:48.200 --> 1:06:52.360 No, I haven't been there yet, but you know what 1:06:52.560 --> 1:06:56.040 every golfer I run into in Minneapolis St. Paul says 1:06:56.080 --> 1:06:58.080 to me, have you been up to Northland yet? It's 1:06:58.080 --> 1:07:01.919 a really excited uh tone in their voice. So I'm 1:07:01.960 --> 1:07:03.520 excited to get up there. Yeah. 1:07:03.640 --> 1:07:08.560 They I've had so many people say tell. 1:07:08.480 --> 1:07:12.080 Me I got to go play Northland, and it's so 1:07:12.320 --> 1:07:14.560 I gotta get up to Minneapolis one of these days. 1:07:15.560 --> 1:07:17.640 Yeah, you want to make sure you go to Duluth 1:07:17.680 --> 1:07:21.480 in the summer though, Yeah, the middle of summer. I'm 1:07:21.720 --> 1:07:22.280 I'm there. 1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:26.040 I'm Chicagoan, so you know it's not I don't have 1:07:26.160 --> 1:07:29.480 quite as cold, but I know what the constricted season. 1:07:29.200 --> 1:07:32.640 And and what golf in May and June can be 1:07:32.840 --> 1:07:34.720 like even June can be just bad. 1:07:36.120 --> 1:07:37.959 Yeah. Yeah, I think when I was up there last 1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:40.440 week and snow and of course of Northland, that's one 1:07:40.440 --> 1:07:41.240 of the reasons we didn't go. 1:07:41.320 --> 1:07:47.600 Up that's uh this way up there, so uh, I apologize. 1:07:47.640 --> 1:07:50.280 I didn't get the name of who asked this. 1:07:50.440 --> 1:07:54.360 But what's one piece of knowledge that you take away 1:07:55.440 --> 1:07:59.600 from working with Whitman on on the great projects that 1:07:59.680 --> 1:08:01.920 he's that you've been working with. 1:08:01.920 --> 1:08:02.240 Him on. 1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:08.600 That that's an easy question. I'll never forget. When I 1:08:08.640 --> 1:08:11.200 first started working with Rod and hanging around with and 1:08:11.320 --> 1:08:14.120 you know, I was kind of like the kid who 1:08:14.160 --> 1:08:16.640 had who had read all the architecture books, you know, 1:08:16.680 --> 1:08:19.360 and all I wanted to do was talk about theory 1:08:19.520 --> 1:08:23.559 and concepts and that sort of thing. And Rod said 1:08:23.600 --> 1:08:25.880 to me one time, you know, he said, hey, let 1:08:25.880 --> 1:08:28.080 me tell you something. You know about ten percent of 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:32.880 golf architecture is philosophizing and talking about concepts, and then 1:08:33.160 --> 1:08:36.240 the rest of the ninety percent is just hard work. 1:08:37.360 --> 1:08:41.320 And I've watched Rod work hard. You know, he's he's 1:08:41.960 --> 1:08:43.600 I won't reveal his age, but he's been in the 1:08:43.640 --> 1:08:48.200 business for a long time now. And you still see 1:08:48.280 --> 1:08:51.439 Rod on the bungozer, you still see him doing finished work. 1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:54.000 You still see him out, you know, out there in 1:08:54.000 --> 1:08:57.320 the field working hard. And I'll never forget him saying 1:08:57.320 --> 1:09:01.840 that to me ten ten percent conceptual hard work, And 1:09:01.880 --> 1:09:04.479 I wrote down a quote he said one time that 1:09:04.520 --> 1:09:06.680 I still think is great. He said to me, you 1:09:06.680 --> 1:09:09.160 know the guys with dirt under their fingernails who have 1:09:09.640 --> 1:09:13.400 the best chance at building the best And you know, 1:09:13.479 --> 1:09:15.240 I think about that all the time in terms of 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:20.400 being out there and getting my hands dirty and working hard. Yeah, 1:09:19.800 --> 1:09:21.320 it's I take away from this. 1:09:21.800 --> 1:09:24.920 I imagine you don't lose perspective that way too. It's 1:09:24.960 --> 1:09:29.240 like a lot of things. You move up in professional 1:09:29.240 --> 1:09:33.240 life and and you forget what you know the job's 1:09:33.280 --> 1:09:36.200 really about, you know, and sometimes some of the cores 1:09:36.240 --> 1:09:37.240 of of of. 1:09:37.160 --> 1:09:41.920 Your work exactly. And I've made myself a promise that 1:09:42.000 --> 1:09:43.479 the day that I don't want to get on a 1:09:43.520 --> 1:09:47.680 buldos or an excavator or go finish a green, I 1:09:47.720 --> 1:09:50.120 think I've lost lost the passion that I have. And 1:09:50.280 --> 1:09:51.800 you know, I doubt I will, But in the day 1:09:51.880 --> 1:09:54.720 if that ever happens, I think I'll stop working. You know, 1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:56.960 I'm sure. I'm sure Rod feels the same way. 1:09:57.880 --> 1:09:58.880 Yeah. 1:09:59.120 --> 1:10:01.360 So so we're and to the end, we got to 1:10:01.439 --> 1:10:03.879 do our Frida egg tradition here. 1:10:03.720 --> 1:10:10.639 Of overrated underrated, So yeah, just easy, rapid fire questions 1:10:10.680 --> 1:10:12.880 they've you know, morphed into, you know, then they end 1:10:12.960 --> 1:10:17.760 up in debates. But but first up a Canadian tradition poutine. 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:25.640 Uh, well, it's underrated, of course, there's nothing better than poutine. 1:10:26.560 --> 1:10:30.720 You know, it's not as popular in the States, but 1:10:31.320 --> 1:10:33.080 good poutine is good, good food. 1:10:33.320 --> 1:10:35.560 You know. Well it's because you guys got to go 1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:37.800 to Montreal to eat it. Then you'll realize how good 1:10:37.800 --> 1:10:38.040 it is. 1:10:38.360 --> 1:10:41.080 Okay, So if you're in Montreal, you got to get 1:10:41.120 --> 1:10:45.640 the poutine. I know my fiance is going there for 1:10:45.680 --> 1:10:48.840 a bachelorette party of one of our friends, so I'll 1:10:48.840 --> 1:10:51.400 tell her if she has to get poutine. Look at me, 1:10:51.680 --> 1:10:52.599 I've got a third eye. 1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:57.200 Though, Cross bunkers. 1:10:59.640 --> 1:11:00.840 Under rated, I think. 1:11:01.439 --> 1:11:08.920 Okay, I agree, I think they're awesome. You know, I've 1:11:08.920 --> 1:11:10.640 been getting a lot of flak from my love of 1:11:10.720 --> 1:11:13.200 the Great Hazard. What would you say about the Great 1:11:13.200 --> 1:11:14.880 Hazard or Hell's. 1:11:16.280 --> 1:11:19.840 I love it hells Acre seven at Fine Valley. 1:11:19.600 --> 1:11:22.519 Right, Yeah, that's that's the. 1:11:22.080 --> 1:11:25.080 Coolest ones I've ever seen, and I absolutely loved it 1:11:25.120 --> 1:11:31.160 is When I visited Ben Crenshaw's Austin golf club. That yeah, 1:11:31.240 --> 1:11:34.840 the ninth hole is a cool uphill long part five, 1:11:35.640 --> 1:11:37.600 and they have a great hazard in the middle of 1:11:37.600 --> 1:11:41.799 the fairway, you know, big mounds and big sandy areas. 1:11:41.880 --> 1:11:43.680 I was, I had my jaw at the ground that 1:11:43.760 --> 1:11:46.200 I saw it. I thought it was so cool. And 1:11:46.320 --> 1:11:49.960 what's neat about it is, you know, we philosophize about 1:11:50.400 --> 1:11:53.559 lateral strategies on golf holes. You know, you know, if 1:11:53.560 --> 1:11:56.240 a pin's talk right behind a bunker, you want to 1:11:56.320 --> 1:11:58.559 drive left and vice versa. You know, we always talk 1:11:58.640 --> 1:12:01.760 about that. What I love about the great hazard is 1:12:01.760 --> 1:12:04.280 it actually it's a it's a it's a you know, 1:12:04.320 --> 1:12:07.880 a challenge of simply hitting a golf ball, you know, 1:12:07.920 --> 1:12:11.920 where you've got to drive it far enough that you 1:12:11.960 --> 1:12:14.639 can get over that hazard. And if somehow or another 1:12:14.680 --> 1:12:16.880 you don't hit the proper drive, then the next shot, 1:12:16.920 --> 1:12:19.240 you know, again, you just need power and length to 1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:24.000 get to get over that hazard. It's it's just quirky 1:12:24.320 --> 1:12:27.240 in a good way. And I think also part of 1:12:27.280 --> 1:12:29.160 the challenge of golf, you know, I think I think 1:12:29.160 --> 1:12:31.360 they're you know, we complained about the golf ball going 1:12:31.400 --> 1:12:33.880 too far and whatnot. But I still think that part 1:12:33.920 --> 1:12:37.120 of the challenge should occasionally be long hitting, and I 1:12:37.120 --> 1:12:39.160 think that Hazard does a good job. Was that. 1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:41.360 I think that one of the things I love about 1:12:41.400 --> 1:12:44.240 it is it's like a really good way. Like you 1:12:44.280 --> 1:12:46.400 know most part five that you hit a bad drive 1:12:46.439 --> 1:12:48.880 and it's just oh, I just lay it up, you know, 1:12:49.600 --> 1:12:51.920 and like it's fine. You know, I'm just gonna lay 1:12:51.920 --> 1:12:54.080 it up to one hundred and twenty and I'll I'll 1:12:54.080 --> 1:12:57.000 have still have a good birdie chance, like the great hazard, 1:12:57.120 --> 1:12:59.280 Like if you don'thit a good drive, like you all 1:12:59.320 --> 1:13:01.280 of a sudden have like a mid to long iron 1:13:01.320 --> 1:13:05.040 into the green and. 1:13:03.800 --> 1:13:06.320 You're like, oh shit, I need to make pars. 1:13:07.479 --> 1:13:10.240 Right. And then that's the thing. That's the thing about 1:13:10.240 --> 1:13:12.759 designing par fives too, right, there's too many par fives 1:13:12.760 --> 1:13:15.320 I think, where it's the second shot that's completely boring, 1:13:16.200 --> 1:13:18.400 you know. So so whenever you whenever you get a 1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:20.800 par five where you actually have something to do on 1:13:20.880 --> 1:13:22.880 the second shot if you're not going for the green, 1:13:22.920 --> 1:13:25.439 I mean, those are the great three shot holes. 1:13:25.800 --> 1:13:28.760 Yeah, I might, I might start a campaign more great hazards. 1:13:30.680 --> 1:13:34.080 I'll try to find one for you, all right. 1:13:34.320 --> 1:13:38.440 The doors, Oh well. 1:13:39.520 --> 1:13:42.679 I wouldn't say either underrated or overrated. I think they're 1:13:42.800 --> 1:13:44.040 properly appreciated. 1:13:44.280 --> 1:13:48.519 Now you got to pick one, I'll. 1:13:48.360 --> 1:13:51.880 Go overrated then, all right, story guys. 1:13:52.040 --> 1:13:55.520 Yeah, it's okay. Music on the golf course. 1:13:57.760 --> 1:14:00.880 Overrated. As much as I'm a music fan, I don't 1:14:00.920 --> 1:14:03.840 particularly enjoy people around me playing. 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:10.080 Music, all right, that's uh. I was expecting the opposite. No, 1:14:12.200 --> 1:14:15.040 So all right, well, well, we really appreciate the time. 1:14:15.080 --> 1:14:17.800 And you know it's a it's gonna this will probably 1:14:17.840 --> 1:14:20.400 be going up on Friday afternoon and over the weekend. 1:14:20.880 --> 1:14:24.040 So you know, what's being a big music fan. 1:14:24.200 --> 1:14:28.360 What's one band that we may never have heard of 1:14:28.479 --> 1:14:30.920 and the listeners have never heard of that. 1:14:31.080 --> 1:14:32.799 We used to listen to this weekend. 1:14:33.800 --> 1:14:39.360 Oh, what a great question. Lately I have been listening 1:14:39.400 --> 1:14:43.760 to a lot of Gojira, go Zerra, Yes, g O 1:14:44.640 --> 1:14:46.640 j I R A. 1:14:46.800 --> 1:14:49.280 Hold on, I write it down. I'm gonna listen to 1:14:49.320 --> 1:14:50.160 it this afternoon. 1:14:51.320 --> 1:14:53.120 They've got it. They've put on a new album a 1:14:53.120 --> 1:14:57.799 few months ago called Magma, and I've been pretty pretty 1:14:57.840 --> 1:15:02.000 obsessed with with that album. It's very very well done. 1:15:02.040 --> 1:15:05.920 O heavy heavy music, but it's very well done. 1:15:06.320 --> 1:15:06.680 G O. 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:13.040 G O j I R A R Era goes zero. 1:15:13.280 --> 1:15:15.920 All Right, and I'll let you know a little secret 1:15:16.000 --> 1:15:21.920 goes Zira is what the Japanese called Godzillah and the 1:15:21.960 --> 1:15:24.920 bands in the bands from France, so there's a small 1:15:24.960 --> 1:15:26.120 world scenario for it. 1:15:26.560 --> 1:15:29.880 This is actually there's like almost too much there for 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:34.920 my head. Bay and can see American movie, Japanese word, 1:15:35.280 --> 1:15:35.960 French band. 1:15:37.160 --> 1:15:40.320 Yes, and the album is one of those great ones 1:15:40.360 --> 1:15:43.479 that you can hit play on the first track and 1:15:43.520 --> 1:15:48.439 it is pretty entertaining right through the end. So sounds 1:15:48.439 --> 1:15:51.160 like I like. I like the album concept where it's 1:15:51.320 --> 1:15:54.439 where it's most fun to listen to it front to 1:15:54.560 --> 1:15:57.559 back rather than just picking individual tracks. So I think 1:15:57.600 --> 1:16:01.640 that this album kind of fits that fits that ideal. 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:03.320 For me, just like a great golf course. 1:16:03.400 --> 1:16:05.799 Right, Hey, there you go, perfect? 1:16:06.600 --> 1:16:10.439 All right, Well, Jeff, thanks so much, and I'll throw 1:16:10.479 --> 1:16:15.120 your Jeff's on Twitter. He I'll throw his profile link 1:16:15.160 --> 1:16:18.000 into the pod and give him a follow, and you know, 1:16:18.040 --> 1:16:20.320 any questions we didn't get to, I'm sure he'd be 1:16:20.720 --> 1:16:23.200 happy to interact and answer on on Twitter. 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:24.640 So thanks so much for coming on. 1:16:25.840 --> 1:16:28.720 Hey, thanks Andy, I appreciate the interest. Enjoyed it all right, 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:30.479 Bye bye,