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Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in.

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Speaker 3: A bride egg, Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida Egg,

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Speaker 3: Frida bride egg.

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Speaker 2: Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

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Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the

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Speaker 3: Friday Egg Podcast. Today we will dive back into the

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Speaker 3: architecture world and we are joined by Jeff Minge. Jeff

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Speaker 3: is an architect based out of Canada. He's done extensive

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Speaker 3: work in the Pacific Northwest and also in Vancouver as

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Speaker 3: well as he's starting to do some in Minneapolis.

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Speaker 2: He got to start with Rod.

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Speaker 3: Whitman, uh doing some work with three of the you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of most prolific new courses in Canada, Sagebrush, Cabot

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Speaker 3: Links and black Hawk.

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Speaker 2: And welcome on, Jeff.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thanks for having me, and he appreciate the interest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're we're excited to learn a little bit about

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Speaker 3: you and kind of your work.

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Speaker 2: And and and.

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Speaker 4: All the all the things you know that we don't know,

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Speaker 4: all right, So why don't you, why don't you give

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Speaker 4: us a little background on yourself and and how you

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Speaker 4: got into architecture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was fortunate to grow up playing golf at

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Speaker 1: Essex Golf and Country Club in Windsor, Ontario, which is

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Speaker 1: just across the river from Detroit. Essex was, uh it's

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Speaker 1: a Donald Ross course from nineteen twenty nine. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: as a kid, I mean I just took a unbelievable

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Speaker 1: interest in the golf course. You know, my my brother

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Speaker 1: and I joke around occasionally. You know, he was able

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Speaker 1: to focus on the ball and the hole, became a

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Speaker 1: real good player, and I kind of hit shots and

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Speaker 1: then looked around and thought, Man, how'd they build that bunker,

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Speaker 1: how'd they build that green? You know, why is the

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Speaker 1: golf course laid out this way? I just it was

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Speaker 1: just something in me that that, you know, an instinctual

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Speaker 1: interest in that sort of thing as I looked at

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Speaker 1: the course. But then I was lucky too, because my

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Speaker 1: dad is an avid book collector, and I used to

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Speaker 1: go to his office and look through his bookshelf. And

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Speaker 1: it still amazes me that, you know, we're talking back

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Speaker 1: in the late eighties when I was a teenager. You know,

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Speaker 1: my dad had all the books, he had golf Architecture

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Speaker 1: by McKenzie. You know, he had Scotland's Gift by CB McDonald,

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Speaker 1: all those classic books. So on top of taking an

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Speaker 1: interest in Essex, I had all this literature and all

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Speaker 1: these resources that my dad had, and I started reading

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Speaker 1: all those books, which was fun and educational, and so

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Speaker 1: I started, you know, I'm sixteen, seventeen years old. I

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Speaker 1: started writing letters to architects saying, you know, I want

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Speaker 1: to do this. It's a it's a found out, it's

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Speaker 1: a real job, and you can do it. And I

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Speaker 1: consistently got the same advice from guys I admired, you know,

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Speaker 1: a young Tom Doak answered my letters. Pete Die Bill Cooor.

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Speaker 1: You know this is again back in the late eighties

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Speaker 1: or early nineties, and I kept hearing that, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you want to be a good, a good golf course architect,

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Speaker 1: you got to really learn how to build on the

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Speaker 1: construction of things. You know, anyone could come up with theories, philosophies,

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Speaker 1: but if you don't know how to actually implement that

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Speaker 1: stuff on the ground, you know, you're not going to

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Speaker 1: be as good as you could be. So long story short,

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Speaker 1: I subsequent we found out that there was this Canadian

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Speaker 1: guy named Rod Whitman, who had worked for Corn Crenshaw,

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Speaker 1: worked for Pete Dye. You know, he worked in a

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Speaker 1: way design build method. So I just pastored Rod for

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Speaker 1: I can't even remember how long, and he finally called

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Speaker 1: me up and said, all right, if you want to work,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing something at Edmonton. Show up you know, whatever

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Speaker 1: date it was, and I jumped on a plane, immediately

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Speaker 1: lied to him, and I knew how to run a

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Speaker 1: bulldozer and ended up working for him for ten years.

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Speaker 2: So what was it? What was it like when you know,

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Speaker 2: he said get on the dozer?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 2: What was the first experience?

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Speaker 1: That's a funny story. I'm glad you asked it because

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Speaker 1: I actually just told this story the other night. When

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Speaker 1: I was in Minneapolis. I showed up on site and

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Speaker 1: we were the tenth hole at this golf course was

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Speaker 1: going to play up and over a hill. So the

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Speaker 1: objective was to cut the hill down a little bit

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Speaker 1: to reduced the severity of it up and over tea shot. So,

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Speaker 1: first first day on site with Rod, he says to me,

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Speaker 1: you've run a bulldozer, right, And I said yes, And

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Speaker 1: he said, uh, okay, Well what you need to do

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Speaker 1: is cut that hill down, Here's where the tenth tee

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Speaker 1: is going to be, here's the here's the line of

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Speaker 1: the tea shot. Cut the hill down, take the cut

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Speaker 1: material down to the tees, and flatten off. Flatten off

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Speaker 1: a teeing area. I said, okay, So he leaves and

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Speaker 1: I get in the bulldozer. No clue even had to

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Speaker 1: start it, run it nothing. I finally found that, finally

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Speaker 1: found the key, started it up, started messing around. Rod

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Speaker 1: came back, I don't know a couple hours later, and

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Speaker 1: he looked at what I'd done, and his first response was,

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Speaker 1: you've never run a bulldozer before, have you? And I said, uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you caught me, but uh but we hit it off,

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Speaker 1: and he gave me an unbelievable opportunity to to just

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Speaker 1: jump into it, you know, literally jump into the fire.

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Speaker 1: Get on that bulldozer, get on that excavator, get on

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Speaker 1: that track here, get on that sand rake, you know,

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Speaker 1: and finish the green and you know, it's just just

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's the it's the foundation of everything I

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Speaker 1: do now and Tholip Golf forever would be grateful to

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Speaker 1: him for putting me in that position without any rogers.

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Speaker 1: Roger an easygoing guy. That's what's so great about him

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Speaker 1: and he he just you know, gave me a remarkable opportunity.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting. So do you think there's any you know,

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Speaker 3: I think you know from Keith Rabbit talked about Bill

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Speaker 3: Corr being pretty easy going and laid back.

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Speaker 2: Do you think is there you know, is are there

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Speaker 2: common traits.

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Speaker 3: That you see with with some of the great architects

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Speaker 3: that you've you know, been able to meet, and do

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Speaker 3: you think there's any common traits that is.

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Speaker 1: Certainly one of the traits of guys that that that

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Speaker 1: I really admire, you know, Rod, Bill, Tom doak Uh,

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Speaker 1: Gil hansh you know that that whole vein of guys

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Speaker 1: and it all, you know, I often think it kind

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Speaker 1: of all stems back to Pete Dye, you know, who

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Speaker 1: who was easy going to You know, if you get

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Speaker 1: a passion for architecture and you want to work, let's

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Speaker 1: go to work. You know, it's not about landscape architecture

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Speaker 1: degrees and you know, the certifications and all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's just got to get out there in

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Speaker 1: the field and work, and the best work comes from

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Speaker 1: a sincere passion for architecture. You know. I mean Rod

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Speaker 1: always said on our jobs, you know, we'd have a guy.

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Speaker 1: We'd have a guy come to us like you know,

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Speaker 1: offence to anyone, but we'd have a guy come to

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Speaker 1: us and say, Okay, I just spent the last six

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Speaker 1: years working for Nicholas or working for Palmer, or working

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Speaker 1: for this guy, work for that guy. I've been shaping

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Speaker 1: for twenty five years. Rod would put that resume aside

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Speaker 1: and take the kid who'd never like me like I was,

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Speaker 1: who'd never been on a project before and just had

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Speaker 1: a passion for golf architecture. You know, there's a difference

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Speaker 1: between having a sincere passion for golf architecture and simply

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Speaker 1: knowing how to shape golf courses. Yeah, you know, and

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Speaker 1: I think I think he died recognized that a long

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Speaker 1: time ago. You know, Rod, I mean, you know, he

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Speaker 1: rot had no experience really when he went to work

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Speaker 1: for Pete Austin country clubs in the early eighties. You

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Speaker 1: know Bill Koor, I mean his background is in like

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Speaker 1: Greek philosophy or something you know, from college. And Rod too,

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Speaker 1: he's got a he's got something like a philosophy degree.

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Speaker 1: I studied political science, you know, But we all, we

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Speaker 1: all came into the thing with passion, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to be said about that. But back

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Speaker 1: to your question, you have to take an easy going

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Speaker 1: attitude to bring to bring people like that into the mix,

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Speaker 1: you know. And again, all those guys I named are

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Speaker 1: just kind of like, you know, don't sweat it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna go out there and we're gonna work hard

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Speaker 1: and and uh and get it done with passion. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's what you're seeing in a lot of

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Speaker 1: architecture these days. You know, you're seeing a lot more

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Speaker 1: a lot more passion than you are seeing just business,

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Speaker 1: you know, like guys running a business and building courses

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Speaker 1: and moving on to an XT course. Who're seeing people

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Speaker 1: who really who really care and are really delving into

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Speaker 1: it and are really trying to be craftsmen, you know,

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Speaker 1: with with their work. So it's it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: neat era, you know, it's a neat air to be

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Speaker 1: involved in. Even though there's not a lot of golf

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Speaker 1: courses being built comparatively, there's certainly a lot of quality

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Speaker 1: work being done, which is which is really cool.

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Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, I'm interested.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're a part of this design build movement,

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Speaker 3: and it seems like it's a it's a pretty it's

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Speaker 3: getting to be more of an even spit split, you know,

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Speaker 3: like this the design build philosophy.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, you know, you spend a lot more time on site.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that.

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Speaker 3: Gives you obviously an inherent advantage when you're go Yeah, so,

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Speaker 3: I mean you learn a lot of the nuances right,

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Speaker 3: well exactly.

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm lucky that when I explain to my

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Speaker 1: clients right out of the gate that you know, plans

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Speaker 1: are entirely conceptual, because, as you just said, when when

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Speaker 1: you're permitted to spend time on site, things change, you know,

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Speaker 1: you things change as you're shaping, things change as you

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Speaker 1: continue to study the situation and tweak the design. And

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Speaker 1: so to charge clients, you know, an incredible amount of

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Speaker 1: money to sit in Toronto and design a golf course

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Speaker 1: in Seattle is both a waste of time and a

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Speaker 1: waste of money. You know, I would rather have my

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Speaker 1: clients spend spend money on me being on site, paying

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Speaker 1: attention to details as things get built, and then also

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Speaker 1: participating in the shaping as well. You know, that's money

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Speaker 1: well spent. And you know, again, usually that's part of

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Speaker 1: my you know, part of my my speel when I

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Speaker 1: when I come to a potential client or a new

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Speaker 1: client and explain to them that that they're going to

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Speaker 1: get the best best results out of that method, Uh,

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Speaker 1: simply because you know, you you got to pay attention.

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Speaker 1: It's like Ben Crenshaw said, you know what's the most

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Speaker 1: important thing in golf architecture, and it's time. You know,

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Speaker 1: you need time to be out there, time to build,

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Speaker 1: time to look, time to tweak, you know, and and

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Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. And the more time you

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Speaker 1: have without wasting time or taking too much time, you

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Speaker 1: know you're gonna end up with a with with the

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Speaker 1: best result possible.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I know you write a good amount, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's a lot like writing is like when

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Speaker 3: you have the time to really write something and you

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Speaker 3: and you keep working on you know things that they

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Speaker 3: always turn out better.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And that's that's a perfect analogy, it really is.

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Speaker 1: But then you just have to find you have to

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Speaker 1: find that balance, right because you know, if you think

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Speaker 1: of an author who just wants to continually refine, refine, refine,

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Speaker 1: you'll never get the book published. So you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a there's a final line of when the

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Speaker 1: thinking in the in the tweaking and that changing, you know,

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Speaker 1: stops have to stop. It reminds me of a funny

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Speaker 1: story Dick Young's cap, who was who's the developer of

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Speaker 1: sand Hills. He developed a golf course that Rod actually

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Speaker 1: worked on with Pete Dye at Firethorn in Lincoln, Nebraska.

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Speaker 1: And we were sitting down at dinner one time with

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Speaker 1: Dick Young's cap, and he told the story of Pete

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Speaker 1: Die showing up at Firethorn during construction, and every time

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Speaker 1: Pete showed up, he wanted to think more, he wanted

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Speaker 1: to tweak more, and they were getting close to the

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Speaker 1: finish line, and Dick Young's cap, who's got a great personality,

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Speaker 1: you know, he finally said, that's it, you're done. We're graphic,

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Speaker 1: there's no more changes. Otherwise he felt they were never

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Speaker 1: going to finish the golf course. Yeah, so, you know,

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Speaker 1: so again there's a there's a bit of a talent

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Speaker 1: in realizing that, Okay, we've done all we can. That's done,

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Speaker 1: because I think, you know, with our artistic minds, I

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Speaker 1: think we'd never be done if we didn't have to

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Speaker 1: be done.

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Speaker 3: Right, So you've touched on Pete Die a couple of times,

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Speaker 3: and you know we're the tours at a Die course

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Speaker 3: now and then obviously the players is coming up, and

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Speaker 3: we had the heritage at Harbortown. If you were going

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Speaker 3: to say, you know, what's the one thing that you

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Speaker 3: would take away from Pete Die as an architect that

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Speaker 3: you know really kind of like that you admire the most,

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Speaker 3: what would it be.

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Speaker 1: Well, I would say the guts and the strength to

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Speaker 1: be bold with your work. You know, the I deal

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Speaker 1: with a lot of client clubs and I just find

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Speaker 1: golfers and I say this to my committees and memberships

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Speaker 1: that I work with. Golfers are soft these days. You know,

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Speaker 1: they want the golf course to cater to them. You know,

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Speaker 1: you do something bold, whether it be a deep bunker

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Speaker 1: or a big contour or a green or or something,

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Speaker 1: and they're they're most of them are upset all the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, they don't want golf to be golf. And

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Speaker 1: you know Pete you know, we all know he actually

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Speaker 1: gets some bad rap. I think because you know he

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Speaker 1: got he got this reputation. At all he did was

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Speaker 1: build hard golf courses. I don't believe that to be

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Speaker 1: true at all. I find a lot of his golf

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Speaker 1: courses to be really fun. But there's always bold features

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Speaker 1: out there, you know, that that excite you to play.

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Speaker 1: And I just get this sense all the time when

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Speaker 1: I'm working at clubs and people want to tone it

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Speaker 1: down because they don't want to. I mean, it sounds simplistic,

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Speaker 1: but I often say they don't want to play golf.

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Speaker 1: I mean when you go up, when you go to Scotland,

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Speaker 1: you go to Ireland, you know, you you see stuff

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Speaker 1: that is like bold and hard, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: got I talked to the pet one time at the

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Speaker 1: uh I think it was two thousand and eight PGA

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Speaker 1: Championship at Oakland Hills. I just happened to run into

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Speaker 1: him and we're talking about things, and you know, he said,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you something. I was all excited. He asked,

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Speaker 1: you know, why do you think people play golf? And

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Speaker 1: I thought I was going to get some philosophical answer,

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Speaker 1: and he said, simply because it's hard. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: part part of the reason you play is because you

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Speaker 1: always think you could do better next time, you know,

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Speaker 1: And you know, and again I really give him a

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Speaker 1: lot of credit I think he built his reputation on

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Speaker 1: not being afraid to be bold. And that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: make every hole bold or every course bold, but you

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Speaker 1: need you need some stuff that's going to excite people,

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Speaker 1: want people to come back to play, and it's thrill

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Speaker 1: come back to try and yeah, thrills and try to

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Speaker 1: try to conquer some things that are that are seemingly difficult,

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Speaker 1: you know, or are difficult.

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Speaker 3: That's why I think so you hit the nail on

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Speaker 3: the head with golf in general, Like, you know, the

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Speaker 3: thing that keeps you, it keeps everybody coming back, is

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Speaker 3: the fact that it's like untacraable, you know, you never

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Speaker 3: you know, I've played some of the best rounds of

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Speaker 3: my life and i walk off the course and I'm

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Speaker 3: like shaking my head because I'm like, dang, I three

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Speaker 3: pointed from twelve feet and you know, it could have

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Speaker 3: been could have been even better. And that's like the

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Speaker 3: beauty of golf is that there's you're never fully satisfied.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, and it's it's it's challenging these days, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, especially for a guy like me. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm still in the midst of building my career.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a dog or a core or even a

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Speaker 1: Hants or anything like that yet. But you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're working at a club and you see an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to do something bold, you know, your first thought is, okay,

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Speaker 1: how you know, how is this going to be received?

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Speaker 1: You know, am I going to be? Am I going

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Speaker 1: to get fired here? Because I want to do something

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Speaker 1: that's got some real character. But you know, and I

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Speaker 1: follow through because I do think of guys like like

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Speaker 1: Pete Dye and and other architecture. But you need those

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Speaker 1: type of features, you need those types of holes out there.

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Speaker 1: But it is it's you know, it's it's a you're

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Speaker 1: always thinking about the potential threat when you're when you're

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Speaker 1: about to build something that you know is going to

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Speaker 1: be controversial. But as you know, I mean, all the

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Speaker 1: great holes in the world are are polarizing. You know,

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Speaker 1: you either love them or hate them. If they were

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Speaker 1: if they just shot in the middle, maybe no.

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Speaker 2: Good, right, Yep, It's uh, it's it's very true.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like Mackenzie thought Cyprus Point was going to

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Speaker 3: be just maligned, but you know, because of how bold

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Speaker 3: he went, and then you know, the natural beauty kind

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Speaker 3: of over overshadowed everything.

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Speaker 2: But i'd be interesting.

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Speaker 3: You know, you you've talked a lot about, you know,

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Speaker 3: dealing with memberships, and I know you've you've done a

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Speaker 3: lot of you know, restorations and renovations of clubs. Like

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Speaker 3: what would you say, you know, would be like the

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Speaker 3: one thing you wish every membership committee would do, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, having the experience, Like, what's the one thing

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Speaker 3: that like really great membership committees do.

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Speaker 1: Well? You know, it's kind of like it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like Alistair McKenzie. I think it was Alistair mckennee years

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Speaker 1: ago said that the best number for a committee, the

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Speaker 1: makeup of a committee is an even numbered less than three, right,

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Speaker 1: which is which is one? And it makes me think

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Speaker 1: of an experience I had at the Derrek Club. You know,

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Speaker 1: we in Edmonton, Alberta. We completely rebuilt an existing golf course.

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Speaker 1: It's it's basically a new golf course. And they did

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Speaker 1: a very nice job of allowing us to deal with

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Speaker 1: a two person committee. We you know, they they our

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Speaker 1: plans were vetted through Green Committee, long Range Planning Committee,

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Speaker 1: Board of Directors, but once we got the thing through

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Speaker 1: the membership, through the club, we simply dealt with two

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Speaker 1: board members on construction schedule and financing in budget issues. Right,

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Speaker 1: So we avoided what is most typical where you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got twelve people in a room, you can't cut,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't come to consensus. I mean, golfers,

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Speaker 1: golf architecture is very, very subjective, as you know too.

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Speaker 1: Everybody has different opinions and that's fine, it's wonderful. That's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons we have such a great variance

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Speaker 1: of golf courses, you know, and variety is so important

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Speaker 1: to golf. But when it gets down to it and

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Speaker 1: you've and you've hired an expert architect, and you've hired

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Speaker 1: you know, you've got an expert super golf course superintendent,

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Speaker 1: expert shapers, contractor, I mean, you got to let them

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Speaker 1: go to work, can't. You can't have twelve people and

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Speaker 1: they're putting giving their opinions on every tee, every bunker,

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Speaker 1: every green. I mean, it's it's like spinning your tires

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Speaker 1: and mud, you know, when you're dealing with that situation.

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Speaker 1: So I think I think the Derrek Club, even though

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Speaker 1: it's a difficult thing to do politically, the Derek Club

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Speaker 1: provides an excellent example of how to just let the

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Speaker 1: people that you've hired go to work and not not

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Speaker 1: not have interference with too many design opinions getting thrown

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Speaker 1: thrown in there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the other aspect of it is, you know,

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Speaker 3: most members of private clubs are very very successful in

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Speaker 3: their trade, you know, and they aren't used to being

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Speaker 3: you know, not the boss exactly.

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Speaker 1: But the other problem too, like I said earlier, is

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Speaker 1: that is that you know, I always use this example.

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Speaker 1: You know, Jack Nicholas won eighteen professional majors and two

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Speaker 1: US Amateurs because he was able to tailor his game

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Speaker 1: to varying courses, right He when he knew when he

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Speaker 1: was at Saint Andrews he had to play different than

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Speaker 1: he did when he was at Augusta, and he had

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Speaker 1: to play different when he was at Pebble Beach than

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Speaker 1: he did then he played at Augusta, you know, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. That's why he was such a successful champion.

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Speaker 1: The problem with so many club golfers is they want

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Speaker 1: the exact opposite to happen. They want the golf course

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Speaker 1: designed and set up to cater to them. And I'm

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Speaker 1: constantly confused by that because as we talked about just

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Speaker 1: a minute ago, I mean, the attraction to the game

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Speaker 1: is the challenge. But so many golfers they run from

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Speaker 1: the challenge and they just complain about the condition of

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Speaker 1: the bunkers or the or where the teas were set up,

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Speaker 1: but where the hole was cut. You know, we all

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Speaker 1: hear that all the time, and it's just such a

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Speaker 1: it's such an ironic thing, you know, when I can

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Speaker 1: be a little sarcastic sometimes and I ask people, again,

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Speaker 1: did you really want to play golf? Or what kind

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Speaker 1: of game are you trying to try to create here

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Speaker 1: that's actually not golf? You know?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean a perfect example is where I play

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Speaker 3: in Chicago. I started playing there a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 3: and I've I've always been a player that hit a

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Speaker 3: right to left t shot, and this golf course, like

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Speaker 3: you know, it had some shots where you had to move.

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Speaker 2: The ball left to right.

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Speaker 3: And over the over the years I've become so much

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Speaker 3: more well rounded of a golfer because I've learned and

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Speaker 3: been forced to learn how to hit the ball left

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Speaker 3: to right. And you know example, and it's just it,

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Speaker 3: that's the way people need to look at these things.

408
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Speaker 3: Is looking at it and saying like, you know, like

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Speaker 3: if I play a course that really tests certain aspects

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Speaker 3: of my game, you know, I you know, while still

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Speaker 3: being fair, like you know, I think that, and I'm

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Speaker 3: you know, like not having nowhere to bail out nowhere

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Speaker 3: like but like where you have this test, like it's

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Speaker 3: only going to.

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Speaker 1: Make you better, right, And I think that's why you know,

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Speaker 1: Pete Die has gone to bad rap? Is it he was?

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Speaker 1: You know Sawgrass you just mentioned the Players Championship. I

418
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Speaker 1: mean Sawgrass is so cool because it's like overkill of

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Speaker 1: presenting you with varying challenges, you know, if you if

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Speaker 1: you actually look, I used to. I learned so much

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Speaker 1: Plan TPC, Sawgrass and the old Sega of you know

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Speaker 1: video games system years ago, right because they show you

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Speaker 1: the overview of the whole. And when you when you

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Speaker 1: know a little bit about architecture, you could see that

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Speaker 1: so many of the holes and so many angles are

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Speaker 1: set up, you know, for cut off the tee and

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Speaker 1: then draw into the green, you know. And with the

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Speaker 1: eighties when the golf course opened, with the eighties clubs

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Speaker 1: and balls, you know, those those types of shots meant something.

430
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: And I think why a lot of those pros back.

431
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: And I'm just being speculative, but my my suspicion is

432
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: that most of those pros out there when when when

433
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: Pete did put those that you know, precise challenge out

434
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: there and they couldn't hit the shot that was required,

435
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: it just burned him up, you know. And and Pete

436
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: always talked about you get into those guys heads, that's

437
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: when you really got them right. Yeah, and you know

438
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: when he was asking him the dude, you know, shape

439
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: it this way, shape it that way, hit it low,

440
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,959
Speaker 1: hit it high. You know. It's just it's such a

441
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 1: smart design. I mean, I still can't believe he took

442
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: a swamp and ended up with with that. I mean,

443
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: it's it's arguably, I mean, I don't want to I

444
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: don't want to overstate this, but I think Sawgrass is

445
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: arguably one of the greatest achievements in golf architecture. You know,

446
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: to be first of all, to facilitate golf in what

447
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: was really a swamp, and then to come up with

448
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: so many holes that are just you know, fascinating from

449
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: you know the look of the holes, the strategy behind

450
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: the holes. I mean, I just got tons of respect

451
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 1: for mister Due and that golf course. And I know

452
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: I've kind of argued with a lot of people who

453
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: feel differently about it, but that's my opinion.

454
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it also the one of the things

455
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,959
Speaker 3: that does so well is it doesn't really favor a

456
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: specific type of player. You know that you see a

457
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: great variety in the leaderboard and winners there year in

458
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 3: year out, because because you I think that's what he

459
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 3: does so well is that he always you know, there

460
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: are always angles and ideal angles. The ideal angles usually

461
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: come with a little bit of risk, and then you know,

462
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: and then he asked you to hit south and it's

463
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 3: you know, it's very clear, you know what you need

464
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: to do, and if you pull it off, you usually

465
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 3: have a great look at Bertie or Eagle, and if

466
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 3: you don't, you're going to be you know, and you

467
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 3: don't miss it in the right spot, you're going to

468
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 3: be in a world hurt, right, And.

469
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: The sad part about that, I mean, I love the

470
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: way you just described that, but the sad part about

471
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: that is the way club of ball technology is now

472
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: It's taken so much away from from exactly what you

473
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: just described, because the ball is just being hit you know,

474
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: super high, ye monstrously high and monstrously long. No spin,

475
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, no spin, you know, so all that shapen

476
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: and high low stuff is gone, and it's just it's

477
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: it's pretty sad, actually, you know when you think about

478
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: how fascinating the game was even twenty thirty years ago.

479
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about it.

480
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 3: I had Aaron Oberholzer on and he talked about the

481
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 3: first time he hit a pro V one. You know,

482
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: he was a pro golfer at the time, and he

483
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: was like, holy cow, this is.

484
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: So much different.

485
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 6: And how I mean you look at hey, I think

486
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 6: it's the pro V one's obviously been the one that's

487
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 6: kind of really changed the game because when it as

488
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 6: soon as it shifted from professional nineties to those that

489
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 6: I mean, the spin just year over year has gotten

490
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 6: less and less, and ball goes further and straighter and

491
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 6: skills diminished.

492
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it just it just boggles my mind that

493
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: anyone would think that that's a good thing for the game.

494
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: I just I don't understand it. But you know, I

495
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: don't know if you've read it yet, but I just finished.

496
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm friends with Morten Rudstein, who's been a long time

497
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: friend of mine. I was fascinated that he just wrote

498
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: that book with Tiger Woods celebrating the ninety seven Masters,

499
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: and so I was, I was slipping through the book.

500
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: It's a great book, actually, and the best part about

501
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: it for me is Tiger talking about Augusta and he

502
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: he just frankly says that the nineteen ninety seven golf

503
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: course is not even close to the same golf course

504
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: they play today when we saw it, when we see

505
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: it on TV. I mean, we watched the ninety seven Masters,

506
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: we watched this year's Masters. It looks the same to us.

507
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: But the details that he describes in terms of how

508
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: different not only how different the playing equipment is, but

509
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: what they've done to the golf course because of the

510
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: playing equipment, is just fascinating. It's really kind of a

511
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's an architectural read in a lot of ways.

512
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously we all know they lengthen the course,

513
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: they planted trees, they introduce rough but Tiger's comments on

514
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: how much they've changed the green surfaces and the green

515
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: surrounds is interesting because the golf course has gotten so

516
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: much longer. They've apparently flattened out a lot of the

517
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: pin positions, and he says the greens have actually gotten

518
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: a lot less interesting and a lot more subtle over

519
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: the years in the pinnable areas, which which has really

520
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: made the golf course less interesting. He said, it was

521
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: way more interesting when it was shorter and the greens

522
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: were a little bit more severe like they were originally,

523
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: rather than just playing a big long golf course with

524
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: with with more flat areas on the greens.

525
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: It's it's interesting, and that book is one that's on

526
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 3: my list of of to do's, but it's it boggles

527
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 3: my mind how anybody how this theory of tiger proofing

528
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 3: came about that Like, Okay, we've got this guy that's

529
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 3: come on tour and he hits it so far, Like

530
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: what we need to do to level the field is

531
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: to make golf courses longer, Like what like that makes

532
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: no sense whatsoever.

533
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: He admits that in the book too. He says all

534
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: they did was play right into his hands because he

535
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: could he could take advantage of his strength, even more

536
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: so the longer the golf course.

537
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, all you did was just remove And now we

538
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: live in this.

539
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 3: Era where all the golf courses are built for power

540
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 3: players and sure enough, power players dominate.

541
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: The game, right, There's no you don't see any Corey

542
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: Pavens around anymore, which which really sucks too. I mean,

543
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: I remember following Corey Paven at that that two thousand

544
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: and eight PGA championship, and I'll tell you what, you

545
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: you want to watch a fun golfer. You know, Corey's

546
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: out there hitting cuts and draws and low high with

547
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: long clubs into those greens because you know, obviously Oakland

548
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: Hills was playing really long and I kept thinking to myself,

549
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: you know what if we could watch the good players

550
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: do this, Watch Tiger hit a four iron into a

551
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,239
Speaker 1: par four and either cut it or faded or hit

552
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: it low. You know. But you then, you know, you'd

553
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: leave Corey Paven at that t thousand and eight PGA

554
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: and go over to the guys on the leader board.

555
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: They hit the drivers. You can't even see the ball,

556
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: they hit it so high and so far. And then

557
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: they're down there in wedge territory and they in another

558
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: high one and plunk it on the green. I mean,

559
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: that's fun to watch. I'd rather watch Ben Hogan and

560
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: Byron Nelson slinging it around, you know.

561
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, But That's what I always say to people is like,

562
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: you know, people are like, oh, I'd love to see

563
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: you know, DJ Rory and you know Jason Day in

564
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: the same group, and it's like, well, they're all the

565
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: same player. It's just like with It's just like golf

566
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: course design. What makes a great variety, Like, you know,

567
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: I'd like to see a guy like, you know, I'd

568
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: like to see a group.

569
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: That has you know, one of the bombers in it.

570
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 3: Then you throw in like a Kevin Kissner that's like

571
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: kind of an all around guy, and you throw in

572
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: another guy that that's a shorter hitter that that gets

573
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: it done a completely different way. That that is interesting

574
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: to watch because you see how these different styles of

575
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: play like how they all get it done.

576
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: And it's fascinating.

577
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: You know. One of the if people are interested in

578
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: this topic, I mean, one of the great rounds of

579
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: ball striking, shot making. I think one of the last

580
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: great rounds was Nick Faldo in the nineteen ninety six Masters.

581
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. I don't know if you remember or

582
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: not his shot that he hit from thirteen fairway into

583
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: the green. He was on a hook lie, you know,

584
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: severe right to left lie. But he needed to cut

585
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: the ball into that green with a back right pin. Ye.

586
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: And I've watched it a million times. He had Fanny

587
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: Suison on the bag and they were debating and he

588
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: had it. He had a I can't remember what clubs

589
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: he was debating, but he was pulling one club and

590
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: talking and ended up pulling another club and he just

591
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: set up over that thing and hit that a bullet cut.

592
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: And they had the camera perfectly behind him, so you

593
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: see the trajectory of the ball and he hit this

594
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: beautiful cut off this hook lie. Just like, man, if

595
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: you're a golf fan and our architecture fan, you're like,

596
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: that's that's what you live for, right, that's what you

597
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: want to see, and you just don't see it anymore.

598
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's that's I mean, that's the subtle, subtle ways

599
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: of architecture to really challenge people is give people that,

600
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: you know, I think William Flynn was one of the

601
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: first that did it, was give you know, call for

602
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 3: a right to left shot and give them a left

603
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 3: to right lie. And you know it's, uh, the that's

604
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: a I think that's you know what intrigue.

605
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: I think that's what's so cool.

606
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: About golf course architecture is all like the little subtleties

607
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: that that you guys can do, that can you know,

608
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 3: really give great players fits. So i'd love you know,

609
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 3: I know, you know, we've gone on a tangent here

610
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: of professional golf, which isn't the worst thing.

611
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: But we let's get back and let's talk.

612
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 3: A little bit about your work up in the Pacific Northwest.

613
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: I think you've you've done a lot of work at courses.

614
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: Designed by A. V.

615
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: McCann, which you know, having done you know, a lot

616
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: of research, it seems to be one of the more

617
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: underappreciated architects of the Golden Age era.

618
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm you know, I back, Oh

619
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: Jesus must have been. In the late nineties, I visited Vancouver,

620
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm always making lists if I'm in

621
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: a particular city, what courses do I need to see

622
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: in those cities? So I started making a list, and

623
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: I'm a kid from the East obviously, so I hadn't

624
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time out west at that point.

625
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: I need to see Shaughnessy, I need to see Mariene Drive,

626
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: I need to see the Victoria Golf Club, I need

627
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: to see Roke Colewood. I need to see Capillano. Obviously

628
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: Capillana is the Stanley Thompson course, and then all of

629
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: a sudden, all the other ones it was Av McCann.

630
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: Av McCann. I'm like, who is this guy? You know?

631
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: So I subsequently tracked down a guy named Mike Rist

632
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: He's from Vancouver, who had done some remarkable research on

633
00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: McCann's life. He immigrated from Ireland, born and raised in Dublin,

634
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: came over to Canada and about nineteen twelve I think

635
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: it was, and he was back before he came over.

636
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: He was in the loop with all the big names.

637
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: He was a great amateur golfer, so he played he'd

638
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: played amateur championships around the British Isles, and he knew

639
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: all the guys, you know, John Lowe and all the

640
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: guys of the time who were getting into you know,

641
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: kind of this Renaissance movement golf, that golf architecture, especially

642
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: at the time. So when he got to British Columbia

643
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: there wasn't much golf around. He had the opportunity to

644
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: lay out what is now Royal Cowood in Victoria, where

645
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: he lived. He tweaked the Victoria Golf Club where I

646
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: work now, and he based himself out of there too,

647
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: is his all His letterhead was Victoria Golf Club. But anyway,

648
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: from those two golf courses, he subsequently laid out courses

649
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: in Seattle, Portland all the way down to San Francisco.

650
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: He actually the original designer of the California Golf Club

651
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: before Mackenzie and Hunter came in and bunkered it. But

652
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 1: he did. He worked from nineteen thirteen until he died

653
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four. The problem was is that by

654
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: almost by the end of World War Two, most of

655
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: his original designs had really deteriorated. You know, I've found

656
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: that out in the research I've done in the putting

657
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: together the restoration master plans for his courses. You know,

658
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: I'll run into guys, you know, I'll pitch the restoration

659
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: of a particular bunker or whatnot, and I'll run into

660
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: a member who says, you know, I've been a member

661
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 1: here for fifty years, I don't remember that bunker ever

662
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: being there. And that kind of supports my theory that,

663
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: you know, especially in the Northwest, when the when the

664
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: second you know, come out of the depression into the

665
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: Second World War. I mean, there were all the young

666
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: guys who would have been on the maintenance crews and

667
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: whatnot were over fighting the war. Nobody was spending money

668
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: on golf courses because of the war and because of

669
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: the depressed. So things started to disappear, you know, bunkers

670
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: went away and courses changed a lot. People had really

671
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: forgotten about McCann's prowess and his talents. I mean during

672
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties, if you look at historic

673
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: photos and McCann courses, I mean, they stack right up

674
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: with anywhere else, you know, whether it be Ross tilling has,

675
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, in all the greats who were working in

676
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: America at the time as his contemporary. But again, you know,

677
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: the work deteriorated, and by the end of the Second

678
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 1: World War, no one, no one remembered who a Av

679
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: McCann was, or what is what his original golf courses

680
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: were like. And again, the more I delved into his

681
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: life and his work, he was he was. He was

682
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: on part with all all the greats in the twenties

683
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: and thirties. So it's been it's been a real privilege

684
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: to have an opportunity to kind of dig all this

685
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: stuff out of the archives and kind of bring some

686
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: attention to to, uh, to McCann's legacy.

687
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of your job is being an educator.

688
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: It seems like, you know, it's uh, it's interesting. I

689
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 3: imagine that the Northwest has its own it's constraints, you know,

690
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 3: especially with with trees and everything, more so than almost

691
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: every other any other part of the country.

692
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I mean not not

693
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: only not only are there you know, obviously beautiful trees

694
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: in the Northwest because of the climate. You know, you

695
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: get those big, beautiful Douglas furs, and really the Northwest

696
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: is filled with the types of trees you really don't

697
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,479
Speaker 1: want to see on a golf course. Most often ye big, big,

698
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: big evergreens to cause shade and problems. Well that's what

699
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: I was just going to say. You know. The biggest

700
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 1: thing that I've had to fight is that sa Holly

701
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: has long And I've got nothing against Sally. I actually

702
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 1: never played there, to be honest with you, but I've

703
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: visited the place and the biggest problem is it's sholly

704
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: because of it of its history of hosting championship golf

705
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: it's kind of held. It's kind of become the standard

706
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest. So every time as an architect

707
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: and working with the superintendents I work with, when we

708
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: propose some tree removal, you know, we're always fighting the well,

709
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: holly's a holly, does it? You know? There's a tree

710
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: in the middle of the fairway, it's a holly. The

711
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: greens are surrounded by trees, it's a holly. How come

712
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: they can grow grafts, you know, So we're always we're

713
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: always fighting that supposed standard of Sahlly being a course

714
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: that's heavily treed, where trees come into play, where trees

715
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: shade greens, and they don't do anything about it. So

716
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: I think that's a holly standard has been a real

717
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: issue for us. But we're overcoming it, as you said,

718
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: as we dig out all these historical photos and dig

719
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: out some of McCann's writings, and now people in the

720
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: Northwest are starting to pay attention to what's been done,

721
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: you know. As you probably know too, it seems like

722
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: golf trends moved east to west in North America. So

723
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: Seattle's obviously going to be, you know, one of the

724
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: last places where the wave of any kind of movement

725
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: gets to in golf. So but people are starting to

726
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: become more conscious of the benefits of tree removal and

727
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: the benefits of being able to see across these golf

728
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: courses and appreciate the train and appreciate long views, appreciate

729
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: more room to play, appreciate strategies you know, when you

730
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: widen corridors. So you're absolutely right, it is a it's

731
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: a it's a learning process, and a large part of

732
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: my job is actually being an educator. But I enjoyed

733
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: I've always enjoyed history. As I said, I studied political

734
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: science and history and I've always kind of been historically minded.

735
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: So it's fun to, you know, again, dig out the

736
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: materials and put together the writings and give the presentations.

737
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: And yeah, we made some good progress in the Northwest,

738
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: So it's fun.

739
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 2: I think.

740
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 3: I think trees make golf easier for good players and

741
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 3: harder for bad players.

742
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: I agree. You get you get a fair away, that's

743
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: that's lined. I know you're a good player. Andy, you

744
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: know you get tree line, tree line right, tree line left.

745
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: You can focus on that target, you know, and and

746
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: you guys who are good like that focus.

747
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 3: There's nowhere you have to think about hitting it.

748
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: And as you know, the other people, I mean, how

749
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: many fairways do they miss every round? A lot? So

750
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: when you're in a tight tree line golf course, you're

751
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 1: exactly right, easy for the good player and a lot

752
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: more difficult for the higher handicap, which is the exact

753
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: opposite of what the ideal and golf course architecture is. Right,

754
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: you want to golf, You want a golf course to

755
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: challenge the best players and at the same time allow

756
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: everyone else to have fun. And you know, and I

757
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: used that argument a lot too, because Av McCann preached

758
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: that forever. One of the most fascinating things I've read

759
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: about from him actually is later in his life a

760
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: kid wrote him a letter. I think it was in

761
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: the He died in sixty four, so I think it

762
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: was in the fifties or early they had late fifties. No,

763
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, early fifties, because they were in the letter

764
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: they were talking about the nineteen fifty one US Open

765
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: at Oakland Hills. You know, when Robert Trent Jones narrowed

766
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: the course, you know, bunkerd the hell out of it,

767
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: and Ben Hogan won and said he conquered the monster.

768
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: You know, it was the first time that you know,

769
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: just making a golf course super hard, got a lot

770
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: of publicity and a lot of attention, and McCann was

771
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: totally against that. And the kid asked him, you know,

772
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: I want to go into golf architecture. You know, what

773
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: do I need to learn? And he said, well, don't

774
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: pay attention to Oakland Hills. All you need to do

775
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: is read the two chapters and Bobby Jones's autobiography about

776
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: the development of Augusta Nashville. You know, he thought that

777
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: they achieved the ideal in terms of creating a course

778
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: that challenged the best and catered to the enjoyment of

779
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: everyone else along the line with Saint Andrews, and you know,

780
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: it opened up with twenty two bunkers in nineteen thirty two.

781
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: They had big, wide fairways, but they could play the

782
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: masters there, you know. And that's a neat piece of advice.

783
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: I always go back to that McCann quote about who

784
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: would think that Bobby Jones's autobiography is an architecture book,

785
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: but it is those two chapters.

786
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 3: It's ironic that you that that same person that kind

787
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 3: of did that to Oakland Hills did the exact same

788
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 3: thing to Bobby Jones's AUGUSTA.

789
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting. It's also interesting that Bobby Jones

790
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: was working with him when he started, you know, change

791
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: in sixteen and eleven and yeah, it's boy, if you

792
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: could bring Jones back and talk to him while working

793
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: with McKenzie and then Trent Jones on that golf course, boy,

794
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: would that be something to listen to. Yeah.

795
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I read something about this year that golf WRX

796
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 3: did an article with Robert Trent Jones Junior and he

797
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: was talking about it, and you know, it just had

798
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 3: me shaking my head the whole time, you know, talking

799
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 3: about how you know they needed to remove bunkers or

800
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 3: add bunkers and add water hazards and all this stuff,

801
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 3: and it's like, God, you just don't get it. It's

802
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: it's interesting, Like I think, like the runoff areas that

803
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 3: you see are so becoming so popular now and golf

804
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 3: like is a perfect example. For like the regular player,

805
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 3: that fifteen handicap so easy, You grab a putter.

806
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: And you put it, you know, But then for the

807
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: for the.

808
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: Better player, you look at it and you were like,

809
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 3: what do I do here? You know, and you're like,

810
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 3: do I hit a hit a sixty degree? Do I

811
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 3: hit use like a gap wedge and hit a low checker?

812
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 3: Do I bump it? Do I use a putter?

813
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: Like?

814
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: And all that question puts doubt.

815
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 3: Into your head and you and that's when you win

816
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: as an architect against a good players, when you make

817
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: them think and exactly and but for the for the

818
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 3: regular player they and but like when you think about it,

819
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 3: it's contradictory, like, oh, these runoff areas are easier, but

820
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 3: in actuality they're harder for the good player.

821
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 1: Exactly. I agree one hundred percent. I mean, I love

822
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: I love short crafts for the for the reasons you

823
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: said it's it's it fits into the equation of creating

824
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: the ideal and architecture right as you just said, the

825
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: higher handicap they can knock it out of the green

826
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: with the putter probably you know, maybe not close to

827
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: the hole, but at least they're keeping the ball moving

828
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: they're on the green. And then the shot options, the

829
00:44:54,960 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: tight lies present the challenge for for better golfers. But

830
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: I lately I've been playing the devil's advocate on that one.

831
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: I mean, again, I love short grass, but you know

832
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: it's it's architecture in all forms of art, really, but

833
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, there's always trends in architecture, and I think

834
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: I think sometimes the short grass areas kind of are

835
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: starting to get a little bit out of control, to

836
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: be honest with you, you know, everywhere because I run

837
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: into it with members too. Everywhere there's a fall off

838
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: off the side of the green. You know, there's always

839
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: a suggestion about putting short grass down there, and as

840
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: I said, I'm not opposed to it. But at the

841
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: same time, I mentioned this earlier. At the same time,

842
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: I think variety is most important. You know, you want

843
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: to have holes where when you miss, sometimes you're a bunker.

844
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: Sometimes you got that tight lie on the short grass

845
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: like you just mentioned, sometimes you're rough. I mean, it's

846
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: still a golf shot, right, that should be part of

847
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: the equation to be playing out of two or three

848
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: inches of grass too. I mean, you just have to

849
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 1: make sure that it's not happening every time you miss

850
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: a fair way and every time you misagree, that's when

851
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: the golf course gets monotonous. So I think we need

852
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: to use all of those hazards, you know, and kind

853
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: of sprinkle them around equitably so that you get all

854
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: kinds of different shots.

855
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, something I don't see a lot of that.

856
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: I kind of really like our grass bunkers.

857
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's interesting you don't see them a lot.

858
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: I've got an article sitting in front of me right here,

859
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: actually because i've been working on this McCann stuff and

860
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: trying to do things minimize bunkers on golf courses. And

861
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,760
Speaker 1: there's an article that mackenzie wrote in the Alistair. Mackenzie

862
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: wrote the American Golfer magazine in nineteen thirty three, and

863
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: he was talking about how golf courses have too many

864
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: bunkers and actually advocating the use of grass hollows. And

865
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. It's in all my travels you rarely

866
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: see grassy hollows. Actually, Bee Die courses you see, you

867
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: see a lot of grassy hollows. But it's an interesting

868
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: thing that I put some thought into. I don't know

869
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: if I particularly know how to effectively use them, but

870
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,959
Speaker 1: in lieu of bunkers, it's an interesting thing to think about,

871
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: that's for sure.

872
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 3: I mean it's another example of like for compared to

873
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 3: a bunker, for like your beginner a grass bunker is

874
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 3: worlds easier, you know, right, and then for the better

875
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 3: players it's world's harder.

876
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: And most importantly, it's less expensive to build and less

877
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: expenses to maintain. Yeah, yeah, and that's what that's what

878
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: mackenzie was advocating back in nineteen thirty three. And that's

879
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: actually a fascinating thing to me right now, you know.

880
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I've I've had this dream of one day

881
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: having an opportunity to build a build a bunker this

882
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: golf course. I don't even know if it would fly,

883
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: you know what, which owner open would let you do it?

884
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: And would golfers recognize that you could do something interesting

885
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: and without any sand bunkers. You know. It's just it's

886
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: something I'd love to give a shot to, you know,

887
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: interesting greens, interesting contour in the fair ways, and figuring

888
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: out a way to do it without any bunkers. You know.

889
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: I'd love to take on that challenge someday.

890
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 3: It's well, like you know, like we've talked a lot

891
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 3: about Augusta, but I think one of the most overlooked

892
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: great holes out there is the fourteenth and it's bunker less, and.

893
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 2: I think it would be I think it would be

894
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:39,479
Speaker 2: very cool.

895
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 3: I was going to ask you about, you know, what

896
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 3: kind of new architecture ideas or trends get you most

897
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 3: excited and that kind of feel, you know, doing something bunkerless.

898
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: It could be cool that you could do it.

899
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 3: You could be as it could be less than eighteen

900
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: holes too, you know it. You'd have to have a

901
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,720
Speaker 3: good piece of land, I imagine, though, right.

902
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I was just thinking the same thing.

903
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 5: I mean, a nice, rolling, sandy piece of ground with

904
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 5: good contour would give you a lot more options than than,

905
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 5: you know, than a less interesting piece of land, that's

906
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 5: for sure. But I don't know, I've you know, it's

907
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 5: going to sound like a sales pitch, but I mean

908
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 5: I've always been kind of obsessed with with economy, you know,

909
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 5: in efficiency.

910
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: You know, I would rather have someone go play one

911
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: of my golf courses and say, geez, did you see

912
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: what what what Minge did for a million dollars, rather

913
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: than say, geez, did you see Minge spend fifty million

914
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:35,959
Speaker 1: dollars on there? And I don't even want to play there,

915
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: you know. So trying to figure out ways to be

916
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: efficient and economic, you know, is a is a very

917
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: interesting challenge to me, and obviously from a from a

918
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: business standpoint, I mean, geez, that's what you should be

919
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: providing your clients with, you know.

920
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 3: Well, it's lessons like especially at a public course, you

921
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 3: know that all the costs just get passed the consumer,

922
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 3: you know, And that's why we see two hundred and

923
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 3: fifty dollars green speeds at a lot of these plays,

924
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 3: Like why is why.

925
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: Does Whistling Straights cost four hundred dollars to play? Well?

926
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 3: They moved an insane amount of earth to build the

927
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 3: golf course, right, and you know, like you you look

928
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: at other places, like I think one of the things

929
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: that I've been I'm fascinated at from like this kind

930
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: of discussion is the Loop. You know, the Tom Doks

931
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 3: recent course, and I know Dan Hickson is doing a

932
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 3: reversible course that opens this year up in Oregon, but

933
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 3: the idea of two golf courses in one.

934
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I can't wait to get to the Loop.

935
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: I tried to get there last summer and I just

936
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: couldn't work out the schedule. But I'm hoping to get

937
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 1: there this year because it is it is a fascinating concept, amazing.

938
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 1: I actually looked at a piece of ground in British

939
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: Columbia to redo it existing golf course that had this

940
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: similar potential. Unfortunately, the project did go ahead, but I

941
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: pitched it to the the owner there, and you know,

942
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: he was quite confused by the by the idea, you know,

943
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: And I remember hearing Tom Doaks say that that he'd

944
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: been considering that. He may he may have said this

945
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: to you, and you talked to him recently. But you know,

946
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people wouldn't get that concept. You have

947
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: to find the right owner who's willing to take on that,

948
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: you know that. I guess it's just an oddity that

949
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 1: a lot of people wouldn't wouldn't quite get. So it's cool.

950
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: That's cool that they gave Calm an opportunity to do that.

951
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: I can't think about a better guy to give it

952
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: a shot, to be honest with you, I'm sure it's great.

953
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: Frank Pont actually a friend of mine who's based in

954
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 1: Amsterdam over in Europe. He's working on two projects where

955
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: he's he's going to be doing reversible courses over there

956
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: in the Netherlands. So I don't know, maybe it's going

957
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: to become a bit of a trend, and I don't

958
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: think it'd be a bad thing in spots that we

959
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: can figure it out.

960
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, you know, like

961
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 3: especially for a resort, you know, like it gives somebody

962
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 3: as to stay an extra day, you know, if you're

963
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 3: trying to build destination golf. I think it would make

964
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 3: a lot of sense for a members course too, because

965
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 3: you get a lot you know variety.

966
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, but again, well again we're fighting the North

967
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: American mentality of I mean, you know, I see things

968
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 1: like they don't want you know, members of golf clubs

969
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: complain if you move the team markers back and or forth.

970
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: You know, they always want to play that hole at

971
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty seven yards. If you set up

972
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: at one hundred and thirty seven, they walk up and

973
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: say why they watch move the teas up. So we're constantly,

974
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: you know, fighting to create that type of stuff when

975
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: people don't at variety. You know, again going back to

976
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 1: the start of our conversation, they don't want to challenge,

977
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,720
Speaker 1: they don't want it to be different. It's it's it really,

978
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: it's really mind boggling to be the way some golfers think.

979
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 3: Something I've started to do in non like stipulated rounds.

980
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 3: Is I just play whatever tea box I want to play,

981
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 3: you know, And I've just decided that, like, why do

982
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 3: I have to play.

983
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: A specific te box on a specific day, Like, you know,

984
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 2: if I.

985
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 3: Want to play a par five up and make it

986
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 3: a completely different hole than what it is I play

987
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 3: the majority of the time, why not if I don't

988
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: want to hit it, you know, like if it's into

989
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 3: the wind and I don't want to have to hit

990
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 3: like a punch three wood on a par three, I'll

991
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 3: move up and hit a different shot, you know. It's

992
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 3: like or if I want to move back, like I

993
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 3: just I think that's one of the problems with the

994
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 3: game is that we've become so it's become so focused

995
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 3: on score and tease and handicap, and that's what needs

996
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 3: to be let go because at the end of the day,

997
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 3: it's just about having fun. It's like, like the most

998
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 3: fun times I've had on a golf course is like

999
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 3: when you just peg it, you know, and there are

1000
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 3: no te markers out there.

1001
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that's It just reminds me of another

1002
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: amazing content that hasn't been attempted again, and that's George

1003
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: Thomas's La South, you know Los Angeles Country cub South Course.

1004
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: When Thomas designed it in the in the mid twenties,

1005
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: his concept was to create a course within a course,

1006
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: so that golf course and I know that Gil Hanson

1007
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: and Jeff shakov are recently stored a lot of those concepts, thankfully,

1008
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: but Thomas wanted you to go out there and basically

1009
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: create enough tea options and enough options to set the

1010
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: pins that you're basically every day you're out there, you're

1011
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: playing a different golf course. The holes aren't even close

1012
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: to the same because of the options you have in

1013
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: terms of the way you set it up. And really

1014
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: that just derived from the old course, right, you know,

1015
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: the old course gives you a lot of room to flex.

1016
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: The distances of the holes and the greens are so

1017
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 1: big that you know, you can take the pins far right,

1018
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: far left, up front in the back then the wind

1019
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: starts blowing. I mean, of course, is the epitome of

1020
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: course within a course, and it's it's a really neat

1021
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: concept that I think that needs to be resurrected when

1022
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: we have those opportunities.

1023
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1024
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, if there's all kinds of little things you can

1025
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 3: do so I'm curious. You know, we've talked a ton

1026
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 3: about kind of Golden Age architects. What if you were gonna,

1027
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: uh kind of create like your ideal architects using like,

1028
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 3: you know, the different different skills, like you know, routing

1029
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 3: bunkers of of you know, it could be current, it

1030
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 3: could be uh, Golden Age architects. How would you construct

1031
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 3: the architect whether it be like routing, bunkering greens. You know,

1032
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 3: if we put it into like, you know, three or

1033
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 3: four categories, you.

1034
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: Mean, who would be in charge of each category?

1035
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1036
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: Oh, holy cow, that's uh, that might be one of

1037
00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: the best questions I've ever been asked. Well, you know,

1038
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: I mean I go back to my childhood and it

1039
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: didn't take me very long to realize how great Donald

1040
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: Ross was at routing golf courses. You know, absolutely fantastic.

1041
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: Rarely do you see a Ross course where the routing

1042
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 1: has been changed because you can't really improve upon it.

1043
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: So maybe I'd give Ross the routing. Well, I probably

1044
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 1: I probably sound like a lot of my a lot

1045
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: of my contemporaries here, but I might put Perry Maxwell

1046
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: in charge of the greens. You know, he's I mean,

1047
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,479
Speaker 1: Perry Maxwell Green's. The best ones are just stuff the chart,

1048
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 1: good prairie dunes and whatnot. Cheef bunkers. I'm trying to say,

1049
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: you know, you know what I like about bunkering is

1050
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: I like variety. I mean, I think on all my projects,

1051
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: I try to bring a different bunker style to each

1052
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: one because I think that, you know, obviously, the bunkers

1053
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: are one of the biggest visual aspects of any golf course.

1054
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: And Bill Koor and Ben Crenshaw in there, guys Jeff Bradley,

1055
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: Dave Axcellen, they've done such a good job resurrecting, you know,

1056
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: a great naturalistic Tom Simpson style of bunkering that I

1057
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: think there's been too many copycats. I was going to say,

1058
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 1: I put Tom Simpson in charge of the bunkering, but

1059
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, right now, I think we need to we

1060
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: need a kind of a renaissance and bunker style. We

1061
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: got to get away from that kind of blowout look

1062
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: and start looking at some different things. But that being said,

1063
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: I might put Coorn in charge of the bunkers, either

1064
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: him or Tom Simpson. So there you go, running greens bunkers.

1065
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's uh, that's a formidable three That's the

1066
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 3: thing I like.

1067
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: About the core Crenshaw.

1068
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 3: What they do is that the VERI and the and

1069
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 3: the bunkers, like we've talked about, it's like so many

1070
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 3: different shapes and sizes and different placements. Like they aren't

1071
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,439
Speaker 3: afraid to just throw a bunker right in the middle

1072
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 3: of a fairway, Like I love that, and I hate

1073
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 3: when people like are afraid to do that right because

1074
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 3: that's right where you want to hit the ball.

1075
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: That's what makes it interesting. I've often got that comment

1076
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: at the clubs I work out. We just restored a

1077
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: center fairway bunker off the tee at over Lake in Seattle,

1078
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: and we brought the committee out to to show them

1079
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: what we were up to. And one of the first

1080
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: comments I got and is why would you put a

1081
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: bunker there? That's right where I want to hit it?

1082
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: And my response was immediately to say, that's the point,

1083
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: as you just suggested. You know now that now that

1084
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: there's a bunker right where you wanted to hit it, Okay,

1085
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: well now things are gonna get get get fun right.

1086
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: Can I carry it? Should I play short? Should I

1087
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,479
Speaker 1: play left? Should I play right? You know now you've

1088
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: now you've Golf's an inherently physical game, as we know,

1089
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: and if you could bring a mental element into into

1090
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: the equation, you know, it's going to become more interesting

1091
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: if you take the right attitude to it.

1092
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 3: It's uh, I think it was Mackenzie said, like the bunker,

1093
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 3: a hazard should always be on the intended line of play, right,

1094
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 3: and you know.

1095
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: The most way to describe what I just said, You're right.

1096
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 3: It's amazing how these those those old school architects had

1097
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 3: like a I think Riley was talking about it, and

1098
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 3: it they're how concisely they could describe things.

1099
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 2: You know.

1100
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point.

1101
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 2: It's uh.

1102
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 3: I think they were just a little bit more blunt

1103
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 3: and not afraid of what, you know, what they were saying.

1104
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: You know, that could be part of it, no doubt.

1105
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 3: So we got a ton of really great Twitter questions

1106
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 3: I wanted to get to and you're you're a big

1107
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 3: music fan, so uh KVOY wanted to know, you know,

1108
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 3: has how has music influenced your work on the golf course?

1109
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 1: That's a that's a great question. I would say firstly

1110
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: that you know, most parts of my life are inspired

1111
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: by music. I tend to have headphones on all the time,

1112
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: I again take just take inspiration from all kinds of genres.

1113
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: You know, my tastes and music vary from you know,

1114
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 1: I'll be listening to the Doobie Brothers and I'll be

1115
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 1: listening to Public Enemy that i might be listening to

1116
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: a metal band you know that I'm interested in. So

1117
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: when I'm out on a golf course shaping, usually I

1118
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: usually have my music going. And again, I just kind

1119
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: of feel, I feel good about things when I'm listening

1120
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 1: to what I want to listen to and I think artistically,

1121
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: it just becomes inspiring and puts me in the right

1122
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 1: frame of mind to be creative and and being being

1123
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: the right mood to do to do good work.

1124
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, you got to have the right mindset for anything, you.

1125
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: Know, absolutely every aspect of life.

1126
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 3: I feel like, So, uh, let's see, uh, you know,

1127
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 3: we're going to transition to a musical artist who had

1128
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 3: a question for you, Micah Iration wants to know template

1129
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 3: holes limiting or.

1130
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 2: Are they a great starting point?

1131
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: Geez, that's a good question too. I would never call

1132
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: them limiting because you know, the great template holes really

1133
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 1: really give us, you know, you know, they easy easily

1134
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: explain architectural concepts and philosophies that have stood the test

1135
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,479
Speaker 1: of time and have worked and you know, make make

1136
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: golf holes and golf courses, you know, be what they be,

1137
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: what they should be. But on the other hand, I

1138
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: think we got to be careful that we're not just

1139
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: going around copying. You know. Another thing that I've been

1140
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: kind of critical of is you know there's been a

1141
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: lot of talk of like the Lacy bunker edges. I mean,

1142
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of DAN talk, you know, in

1143
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: architecture in recent years, you know, where everybody's always talking

1144
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 1: about using side slopes to help people kick balls onto greens,

1145
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: and hey, that's cool there. DAN is one of the

1146
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: most exciting Part three concepts there there is, and time

1147
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: has proven that. But you know, we don't want to

1148
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: overkill anything, right, we go back to the word variety.

1149
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: So when when the when when the template concept presents

1150
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: itself in a certain piece of ground or a certain situation.

1151
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: I mean it's hard to ignore it because again, you

1152
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 1: know that those concepts work really well, But I think

1153
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 1: we got to be careful not to not to overdo

1154
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: it too. I think that makes sense.

1155
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 3: No, No, I think that's I think I'm a huge

1156
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 3: Rainer McDonald fan. And you know, I've had the lucky

1157
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 3: opportunity to have played Short Acres, one of Rainer's best courses,

1158
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 3: you know, probably closer.

1159
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 2: One hundred times.

1160
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 3: And you know, you think about the golf course, and

1161
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 3: he uses a lot of great templates, but the best

1162
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 3: holes on the golf course are the non template holes

1163
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 3: because he was given this beautiful land and this unbelievably

1164
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 3: unique land and he and he created unique golf holes that.

1165
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 2: Fit the land.

1166
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 3: And I think that's where you can't allow the templates

1167
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 3: to you know, be in a box like you know,

1168
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 3: and but like if you were given a dead flat

1169
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 3: piece of land and you did all template holes, it

1170
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 3: probably turned out really good.

1171
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, Chicago is a good example of that, right,

1172
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: really good example of that. And I think, you know,

1173
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: maybe a Chicago aside. I think one of the reasons

1174
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: that McDonald Rainer templates worked so good is that they

1175
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: were so good at fitting those concepts to the existing terrain. Yeah,

1176
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: you know, they would find the table top ridge that

1177
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: tilted right to left like at the National you know

1178
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 1: Dan Green on it, or find a find a hill

1179
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: to tuck the alp screen behind an existing hill. I'm

1180
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: not a constructed hill, so you know, I think when

1181
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: it comes across as being natural rather than forced as

1182
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: a preconceived idea or concept, I think it works a

1183
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: lot better. Although I do love Chicago Golf Club too.

1184
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's uh, I'm getting out there in in

1185
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks, so I'm I'm excited about that.

1186
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: You should be.

1187
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've locked it, but it's uh, it's a big

1188
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 3: bucket list one I'm getting.

1189
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 2: Off the list. So so, you know, I know.

1190
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 3: You've been spending a lot of time in Minneapolis, talk

1191
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 3: about a little bit about the GoF city Minneapolis.

1192
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: I feel like it's a little bit under the.

1193
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: Radar, I I would say so. I Yeah, I've been

1194
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 1: hanging around and working at Town and Country Club for

1195
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 1: the last year and a half working on a master plan,

1196
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: and Bill Larson, the superintendent the country Club, has been

1197
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 1: really He's given me an incredible tour of all most

1198
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 1: of the courses around Minneapolis Saint Paul, and I would

1199
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: go so far as to say that, you know, as

1200
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: far as the depth of great golf courses on the

1201
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 1: list of courses there, it's it's one of the deepest

1202
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: lists I've ever seen. I mean, there are extraordinary courses

1203
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: in that city that no one's ever heard of. One

1204
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: of my favorite places there that many people probably haven't

1205
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: heard of his Somerset Country Club, which is in Saint Paul.

1206
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: And it's one of SETH. Rayner's first golf courses. I

1207
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 1: think it dates back to I think it's pre nineteen twenty,

1208
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen or so. Wonderful setting, wonderful clubhouse, great course,

1209
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: all the template holes in there. One of the craziest

1210
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: dans I've ever seen is at Somerset Country Club. Yeah,

1211
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 1: and then you got I mean White Bear Yacht Club,

1212
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: which is up in White Bear, Minnesota, which is not

1213
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: today twenty thirty minute drives from Saint Paul. I would

1214
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: put White There Yacht Club maybe in my top five

1215
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: of course as I've ever played. Wow, that's how good.

1216
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: That's how good. It is just a wonderful piece of

1217
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: land in a wonderful setting, real lay a layout of land,

1218
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 1: golf course. And then you've got you know, you've got Minnicotta,

1219
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: which has hosted a lot of championships. Interlocking there's a

1220
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: great old Donald Ross course near Lake Minatonka. I think

1221
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 1: it's called Woodhill. You know a lot of places like

1222
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: that that are kind of, as you said, under the radar,

1223
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: but just off the chart. Good Midland Hills, another Rainer course.

1224
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I could keep going and going. It's what's

1225
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: a deep list of a really great golf.

1226
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 2: Have you played Northwoods up in Duluth.

1227
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: No, I haven't been there yet, but you know what

1228
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: every golfer I run into in Minneapolis St. Paul says

1229
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: to me, have you been up to Northland yet? It's

1230
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:01,919
Speaker 1: a really excited uh tone in their voice. So I'm

1231
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: excited to get up there. Yeah.

1232
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 2: They I've had so many people say tell.

1233
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 3: Me I got to go play Northland, and it's so

1234
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 3: I gotta get up to Minneapolis one of these days.

1235
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to make sure you go to Duluth

1236
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: in the summer though, Yeah, the middle of summer. I'm

1237
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 1: I'm there.

1238
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 3: I'm Chicagoan, so you know it's not I don't have

1239
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 3: quite as cold, but I know what the constricted season.

1240
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 2: And and what golf in May and June can be

1241
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 2: like even June can be just bad.

1242
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:37,959
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think when I was up there last

1243
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: week and snow and of course of Northland, that's one

1244
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 1: of the reasons we didn't go.

1245
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 2: Up that's uh this way up there, so uh, I apologize.

1246
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 2: I didn't get the name of who asked this.

1247
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:54,360
Speaker 3: But what's one piece of knowledge that you take away

1248
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 3: from working with Whitman on on the great projects that

1249
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 3: he's that you've been working with.

1250
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 6: Him on.

1251
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: That that's an easy question. I'll never forget. When I

1252
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: first started working with Rod and hanging around with and

1253
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, I was kind of like the kid who

1254
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:16,640
Speaker 1: had who had read all the architecture books, you know,

1255
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 1: and all I wanted to do was talk about theory

1256
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 1: and concepts and that sort of thing. And Rod said

1257
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 1: to me one time, you know, he said, hey, let

1258
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: me tell you something. You know about ten percent of

1259
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 1: golf architecture is philosophizing and talking about concepts, and then

1260
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 1: the rest of the ninety percent is just hard work.

1261
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: And I've watched Rod work hard. You know, he's he's

1262
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:43,600
Speaker 1: I won't reveal his age, but he's been in the

1263
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: business for a long time now. And you still see

1264
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: Rod on the bungozer, you still see him doing finished work.

1265
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: You still see him out, you know, out there in

1266
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: the field working hard. And I'll never forget him saying

1267
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 1: that to me ten ten percent conceptual hard work, And

1268
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: I wrote down a quote he said one time that

1269
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,680
Speaker 1: I still think is great. He said to me, you

1270
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 1: know the guys with dirt under their fingernails who have

1271
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:13,400
Speaker 1: the best chance at building the best And you know,

1272
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: I think about that all the time in terms of

1273
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 1: being out there and getting my hands dirty and working hard. Yeah,

1274
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: it's I take away from this.

1275
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 3: I imagine you don't lose perspective that way too. It's

1276
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 3: like a lot of things. You move up in professional

1277
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 3: life and and you forget what you know the job's

1278
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 3: really about, you know, and sometimes some of the cores

1279
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 3: of of of.

1280
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 1: Your work exactly. And I've made myself a promise that

1281
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 1: the day that I don't want to get on a

1282
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 1: buldos or an excavator or go finish a green, I

1283
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 1: think I've lost lost the passion that I have. And

1284
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: you know, I doubt I will, But in the day

1285
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 1: if that ever happens, I think I'll stop working. You know,

1286
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure. I'm sure Rod feels the same way.

1287
01:09:57,880 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1288
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 3: So so we're and to the end, we got to

1289
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:03,879
Speaker 3: do our Frida egg tradition here.

1290
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 2: Of overrated underrated, So yeah, just easy, rapid fire questions

1291
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 2: they've you know, morphed into, you know, then they end

1292
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 2: up in debates. But but first up a Canadian tradition poutine.

1293
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: Uh, well, it's underrated, of course, there's nothing better than poutine.

1294
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 3: You know, it's not as popular in the States, but

1295
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 3: good poutine is good, good food.

1296
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,560
Speaker 1: You know. Well it's because you guys got to go

1297
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: to Montreal to eat it. Then you'll realize how good

1298
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 1: it is.

1299
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 3: Okay, So if you're in Montreal, you got to get

1300
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:45,640
Speaker 3: the poutine. I know my fiance is going there for

1301
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 3: a bachelorette party of one of our friends, so I'll

1302
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 3: tell her if she has to get poutine. Look at me,

1303
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 3: I've got a third eye.

1304
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 2: Though, Cross bunkers.

1305
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 1: Under rated, I think.

1306
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 3: Okay, I agree, I think they're awesome. You know, I've

1307
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 3: been getting a lot of flak from my love of

1308
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 3: the Great Hazard. What would you say about the Great

1309
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 3: Hazard or Hell's.

1310
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 1: I love it hells Acre seven at Fine Valley.

1311
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's that's the.

1312
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 1: Coolest ones I've ever seen, and I absolutely loved it

1313
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 1: is When I visited Ben Crenshaw's Austin golf club. That yeah,

1314
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 1: the ninth hole is a cool uphill long part five,

1315
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 1: and they have a great hazard in the middle of

1316
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:41,799
Speaker 1: the fairway, you know, big mounds and big sandy areas.

1317
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: I was, I had my jaw at the ground that

1318
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:46,200
Speaker 1: I saw it. I thought it was so cool. And

1319
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 1: what's neat about it is, you know, we philosophize about

1320
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 1: lateral strategies on golf holes. You know, you know, if

1321
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: a pin's talk right behind a bunker, you want to

1322
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 1: drive left and vice versa. You know, we always talk

1323
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 1: about that. What I love about the great hazard is

1324
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,280
Speaker 1: it actually it's a it's a it's a you know,

1325
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: a challenge of simply hitting a golf ball, you know,

1326
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: where you've got to drive it far enough that you

1327
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:14,639
Speaker 1: can get over that hazard. And if somehow or another

1328
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: you don't hit the proper drive, then the next shot,

1329
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, again, you just need power and length to

1330
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 1: get to get over that hazard. It's it's just quirky

1331
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: in a good way. And I think also part of

1332
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 1: the challenge of golf, you know, I think I think

1333
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 1: they're you know, we complained about the golf ball going

1334
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 1: too far and whatnot. But I still think that part

1335
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 1: of the challenge should occasionally be long hitting, and I

1336
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: think that Hazard does a good job. Was that.

1337
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 3: I think that one of the things I love about

1338
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 3: it is it's like a really good way. Like you

1339
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 3: know most part five that you hit a bad drive

1340
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 3: and it's just oh, I just lay it up, you know,

1341
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 3: and like it's fine. You know, I'm just gonna lay

1342
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 3: it up to one hundred and twenty and I'll I'll

1343
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 3: have still have a good birdie chance, like the great hazard,

1344
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 3: Like if you don'thit a good drive, like you all

1345
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 3: of a sudden have like a mid to long iron

1346
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 3: into the green and.

1347
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 2: You're like, oh shit, I need to make pars.

1348
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 1: Right. And then that's the thing. That's the thing about

1349
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:12,759
Speaker 1: designing par fives too, right, there's too many par fives

1350
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 1: I think, where it's the second shot that's completely boring,

1351
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: you know. So so whenever you whenever you get a

1352
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,800
Speaker 1: par five where you actually have something to do on

1353
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 1: the second shot if you're not going for the green,

1354
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 1: I mean, those are the great three shot holes.

1355
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I might, I might start a campaign more great hazards.

1356
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 1: I'll try to find one for you, all right.

1357
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:38,440
Speaker 2: The doors, Oh well.

1358
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,679
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say either underrated or overrated. I think they're

1359
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: properly appreciated.

1360
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 2: Now you got to pick one, I'll.

1361
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: Go overrated then, all right, story guys.

1362
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay. Music on the golf course.

1363
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,880
Speaker 1: Overrated. As much as I'm a music fan, I don't

1364
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 1: particularly enjoy people around me playing.

1365
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 2: Music, all right, that's uh. I was expecting the opposite. No,

1366
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 2: So all right, well, well, we really appreciate the time.

1367
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 3: And you know it's a it's gonna this will probably

1368
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 3: be going up on Friday afternoon and over the weekend.

1369
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 2: So you know, what's being a big music fan.

1370
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 3: What's one band that we may never have heard of

1371
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 3: and the listeners have never heard of that.

1372
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:32,799
Speaker 2: We used to listen to this weekend.

1373
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 1: Oh, what a great question. Lately I have been listening

1374
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 1: to a lot of Gojira, go Zerra, Yes, g O

1375
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:46,640
Speaker 1: j I R A.

1376
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 2: Hold on, I write it down. I'm gonna listen to

1377
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:50,160
Speaker 2: it this afternoon.

1378
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: They've got it. They've put on a new album a

1379
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:57,799
Speaker 1: few months ago called Magma, and I've been pretty pretty

1380
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: obsessed with with that album. It's very very well done.

1381
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: O heavy heavy music, but it's very well done.

1382
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:06,680
Speaker 3: G O.

1383
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 1: G O j I R A R Era goes zero.

1384
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 1: All Right, and I'll let you know a little secret

1385
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 1: goes Zira is what the Japanese called Godzillah and the

1386
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 1: bands in the bands from France, so there's a small

1387
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: world scenario for it.

1388
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 3: This is actually there's like almost too much there for

1389
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 3: my head. Bay and can see American movie, Japanese word,

1390
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 3: French band.

1391
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 1: Yes, and the album is one of those great ones

1392
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 1: that you can hit play on the first track and

1393
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 1: it is pretty entertaining right through the end. So sounds

1394
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: like I like. I like the album concept where it's

1395
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: where it's most fun to listen to it front to

1396
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 1: back rather than just picking individual tracks. So I think

1397
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:01,640
Speaker 1: that this album kind of fits that fits that ideal.

1398
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:03,320
Speaker 2: For me, just like a great golf course.

1399
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:05,799
Speaker 1: Right, Hey, there you go, perfect?

1400
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 3: All right, Well, Jeff, thanks so much, and I'll throw

1401
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:15,120
Speaker 3: your Jeff's on Twitter. He I'll throw his profile link

1402
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 3: into the pod and give him a follow, and you know,

1403
01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 3: any questions we didn't get to, I'm sure he'd be

1404
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 3: happy to interact and answer on on Twitter.

1405
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:24,640
Speaker 2: So thanks so much for coming on.

1406
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:28,720
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks Andy, I appreciate the interest. Enjoyed it all right,

1407
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 1: Bye bye,