1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Hey there, everyone has promised. It's me again, Josh. And 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: for Part two of this week's s Y s K Select, 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: we talked about Johnson and Johnson's response to one of 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: the biggest PR crises ever to grip an American company, 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: and we meet the suspects and talk about the effects 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: of the senseless Thailand All Poisonings. I hope you enjoy 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: Part two of two of this week's special two parts 8 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Select Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: Josh Clark. There's Charles W Chuck Bryant, there's guest producer 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: Josh over there. Because enough with the pleasant trees, let's 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: get back to it. Chuck Thailand All Murders Part two. 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: If you did not listen to the first part, seven 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: people were murdered by ingesting Thailand, all tainted with cyanide 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: on the same day, All on the same day. America 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: and much of the world is super freaked out. Johnson 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: and Johnson is the manufacturer. And part one of part 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: two has a deal with Johnson and Johnson and how 19 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: they handled this in a public relations sort of way, 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: because there were and are a huge company, Like you 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: said in the episode one, they held thirty seven percent 22 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: of the market share, which was many hundreds of millions 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: of dollars of Thailand all that they're selling every year, 24 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: and that's right, which is like gazillions now. So it 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: was a very big deal for that company. And the 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: way they handled it is taught in colleges and PR 27 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: classes all over the world as exactly how to handle 28 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: a big public relations crisis like this. It's literally called 29 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: a textbook example of how how it's done. Yeah, they 30 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: did a good job because, as you remember from the 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: last episode, they found out pretty sure early on that 32 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: this had nothing to do with Johnson and Johnson, right, like, 33 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: it wasn't in their factory, wasn't in their supply chain. 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: That happened almost certainly, and that it probably happened by 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: some crazed person taking him out of the store, tainting 36 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: them maybe in the store in the parking lot, then 37 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: putting them back on the shelf. But Johnson Johnson can't 38 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: come out on the news and say, hey, wasn't us 39 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: right well at first though, and this this gets overlooked 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: and left out of the college business courses, in the 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: PR courses at first Johnson and Johnson was not in 42 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: favor of a massive recall. Look well, it looks good 43 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: in one way but bad in another. And they actually 44 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: didn't recall anything until Mayor Jane Byrne hells her press 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: conference on Friday calling for a recall of the Thailand 46 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: all in Chicago, and Johnson and Johnson did a little 47 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: face palm and yes, we're recalling all of the Thailand 48 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: all in Chicago. Yes, what she said. Right. So by Friday, uh, 49 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: the thirty one of September is their thirty one in September? 50 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: Was this October one? I have no idea. I think 51 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: it was October one. Anyway, By the Friday, two days 52 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: after the death the death um, Johnson and Johnson recalled 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: all of the Thailand all in Chicago. And that should 54 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: have been enough to them, that was enough. But this 55 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: PR crisis was so massive and spread so fast, and 56 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: like we said earlier in Part one, became global almost overnight. 57 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: It was not enough. And so Johnson and Johnson, within 58 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: a week of the deaths, recalled every bottle of extra 59 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: strength Thailand all in the United States, which is worth 60 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: about a hundred million dollars at the time. Took it 61 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: back to their factories and destroyed it. So they say, right, uh, yeah, 62 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: both Johnson and Johnson, right. I wonder if one of 63 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: them was like, I don't know about this. They're one 64 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 1: of them said Okay, I'll take all the states west 65 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi North Dakota, South Dakota in some Wyoming, 66 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: and you take all the other states. That's a that's 67 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: a part one joke. Uh. They even got an award 68 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: the Public Relations Society of America, which is a real thing, 69 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: I believe it or not. They awarded them their Silver 70 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: and Bull Award for how they handle the crisis the 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: Thailand all poisoning, that's right, and um high grade foods. 72 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: Remember we talked about the bad Wieners in the first 73 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: episode the ballpark Frank sip Um supposedly had razor blades 74 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: but did not. That still created a public relations crisis 75 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: for them, even though they were just these little jerks 76 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: in Detroit. And Uh. They won the Golden Anvil, which 77 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: is one higher than silver, because of how they handled 78 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: the pr crisis brought about by the copycats of the 79 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: actual Thailand all crisis, which was in fact really brought 80 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: about by two jerk kids in Detroit really not even copycats, 81 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: not the tile in all crisis. I wonder where those 82 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: kids are today, probably in the Senate. I bet one 83 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: of them was the guy who did our our lighting 84 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: at our Detroit show. There was a smoke Yeah, guys, 85 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: we we did a show in Detroit a few years 86 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: ago and um, very famously we still use that as 87 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: the standard bearer for a bad crew bad. We had 88 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: a guy that looked like a former roadie for your 89 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: Riyah Heap that was running like a light show basically 90 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: during the middle of our podcast, and like smoke came out. 91 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: We were like, we had to stop the show, almost 92 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: like dude, what are you doing? Yeah, well the lighting 93 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: was so bad that your highlighter had turned like brown 94 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: and you could and you asked him, we had to 95 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: stop the show and you had to ask him to 96 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: use a different color light. And his response, because Umi 97 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: was hanging out and our friend Chris Bowman was hanging 98 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: out in the sound booth with the guy, his response, 99 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: according to them, was they wants smoke, will give them 100 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: some more smoke, And we got some more smoke like 101 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: a smoke machine man. And people ask us why we 102 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: haven't been back to Detroit. It's a big reason. It's 103 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: a big reason, not the only reason. Uh. Okay, So 104 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: they won the Golden Anvil for the Wiener pr moves 105 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: um McNeil Consumer Products, which is a subsidiary of Johnson 106 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: and Johnson. They actually make Thailand on. Yeah, they make 107 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: the pills again. The way this all the supply chain 108 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: works is really convoluted. Um. And uh, like you said, 109 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: they didn't want to recall Johnson Johnson everything at first. 110 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: They want to kind of take it a little slower, 111 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: I guess, um, because they found out the drugs are 112 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: actually fine, right thanks to Pinky McFarland. This is a 113 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars worth of stock that they were kind 114 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: of feeling the pressure to recall. It's right, So they 115 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: were kind of reluctant at first, especially if they were 116 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: convinced that there was nothing wrong with the rest of them. 117 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: They had no choice, No, that was the only way 118 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: to do it was to lose a lot of money 119 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: and in favor of future gains. Yeah. But even at 120 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: the time, a lot of people were like, this is 121 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: it for thaile and all the public has lost faith 122 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: in Thailand all. So when Thailand all recalled thirty one million, 123 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: fifty count bottles of extra strength Taile and All and 124 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: destroyed at all. There was a chance that not only 125 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: were they losing a hundred million dollars, but that they 126 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: were losing a hundred billion dollars of a brand that 127 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: had already lost the public trust and would never regain it. 128 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: So which wasn't true. But no, but they didn't necessarily 129 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: know that at the time. It was still up in 130 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: the air. Um so they it was basically thirty one 131 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: million sacrificial lambs that were killed to show the public 132 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: this tainted tail and All has gone forever. Your chances 133 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: of dying from taking Extra Strength Thaile and All are 134 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: now gone. You can go back to taking Thaile and All. Now, 135 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: that was one thing, and that was a big gesture, 136 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: but which is what it amounted to. It was a 137 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: gesture on behalf of Johnson and Johnson. But they did 138 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: other stuff too. They started to do things right out 139 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: of their reluctance. Once they finally said there, we have 140 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: to just go with this to save face and to 141 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: win back public trust, they started to do things right, 142 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: like including like setting up a hotline, putting out a 143 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollar reward for information change how much they 144 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: had lost already still jump change it's it is yeah, 145 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: and that remains unclaimed. It does. Um, but they But 146 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: because of all this, Johnson and Johnson managed to regain 147 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: the public trust and actually managed to position itself as 148 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: a victim in all of this. Like, yes, there were 149 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: they were seven murder victims, and Johnson and Johnson I 150 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: don't think ever tried to push them out of the spotlight. 151 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: But they also managed to portray themselves as the victim 152 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: of a of a mad poisoner who may or may 153 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: not have something out for them. But either way, their 154 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: brand was take a huge hit because of this, and 155 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: they were a victim and we're able to generate public sympathy, 156 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: which is part of the road to regaining the public 157 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: trust right, which is why it's taught NPR classes. So, um, 158 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: we'll take you back to two. If you're if you 159 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: weren't around then or old enough to be taking uh 160 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: O t C pills and pain relievers is over the counter, 161 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: by the way. That's right, Okay, you're done with OTC. 162 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: Yeah you know me so dumb. Uh. I love that 163 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: you played along that I appreciate that you could have 164 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: made me feel stupid. We've been partners for eleven years 165 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:42,599 Speaker 1: almost now, Yeah, that'd be when next month or this month? Right, Yeah, unbelievable. 166 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: So uh, I'm believing that, not in that way. Okay. 167 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: So here's how it used to happen. If you wanted 168 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: to take a pill like a tail and all, you would, 169 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: um get your bottle. You would pop it open with 170 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: your thumb. Well first, first it came in a little box, sure, 171 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: but the box wasn't even glued shut. Um. You would 172 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: pop it open with your finger. You would take out 173 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: the cotton in there, and you would take your pill. 174 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: It was that easy. There was no tamper proofing, There 175 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: was no The cotton was completely superfluous at this time. Yeah. 176 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: Cotton originally was introduced to keep baar aspirin like the 177 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: hard tablets from getting crushed in transport. And since they 178 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: started using capsules and other stuff and figured out how 179 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: to strengthen tablets, there was no reason for the cotton 180 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: any longer, but because consumers expected it. Still today you'll 181 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: find cotton in your and your pills. There's no reason 182 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: for it to be there except because the companies know 183 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: that you wanted to be there. You might be weirded 184 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: out if there wasn't cotton in your pills. Imagine the 185 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: cotton lobby had something to do with that too. Well, 186 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: I'll bet they're not. They're not complaining, you know, so 187 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: um big cotton. They should uh new fancy OTC pills 188 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 1: should have micromodl in there. Right. It just comes with 189 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: a pair of me undy him bottle. You're like, these 190 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: have been worn so uh. This was a time. It 191 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: was a very innocent time previous to this, where you 192 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: could like and you pointed this out. I remember seeing 193 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: this in grocery stores, like I remember seeing mothers and 194 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: grocery stores opening food products and smelling them. That's what 195 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: you could do, and then closing it back and putting 196 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: it back on the shelf. There's a little mold in 197 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: this one. Yeah, and I'll just leave it for the 198 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: next person. Forget poisoning like that. These they could be 199 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: spitting in this stuff. It was allowed. That's just the 200 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: way it was like there was. America was innocent enough 201 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: that that was fine. That's how we lived. And that 202 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: sets up this tile and all poisoning. It really shows 203 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: how much of a jarring experience it was from America 204 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: because all of a sudden, like it's finally sunk in 205 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: in a couple of days, there's something wrong with the 206 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: tile and all. Somebody has gone out of their way 207 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: to poisoned the Thailand all in order to randomly kill people. 208 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: And the reason they were able to do this because 209 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: there it's easy to to get into the tail and 210 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: all tamper with it. Put it back and no one 211 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: will be any any any more. The wiser and wait, 212 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: it's not just taile and all. Milk doesn't have anything 213 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: that that keeps the tamper resistant. New there's orange juice, 214 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: there's cereal, new there does um cottage cheese. Nothing does. 215 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: And America for wreaked out. And this is the reason 216 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: why this tile and all poisoning is considered widely the 217 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: first incident of domestic terrorism in the United States, because 218 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: it was terrorism, pure and simple. America was terrified. They 219 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: were petrified not only to take tail in all or 220 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: any over the counter medicine, now they were petrified to 221 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: drink milk or give milk to their kids. Paula Prince, 222 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: the flight attendant who was the last one to die 223 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: in Chicago, she had a coworker who said like everything 224 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: look tainted. Now. I was afraid to give my kids milk. 225 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: I was afraid to get my kids cereal. If they 226 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: could get to the tile tile and all, they could 227 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: poison anything. And that was really emblematic of the the attitude, 228 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: the shock that everybody went through. And as a result, 229 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: within six weeks, Thailand all said we got this coverage. Yeah. 230 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: And I have a feeling they did this so fast. 231 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: There had to have been this idea in place already. 232 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: It was I saw I saw a reference that it was, 233 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: and I imagine it was not done because they're like, well, 234 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: that's a lot of money, and why why would we bother. 235 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: It's like, it's not like someone's gonna poison the medicine. 236 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: And then that happened. So within six weeks they had 237 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: a box that was actually glued shut, so if your 238 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: little box had been opened, you would be able to 239 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: tell yeah, that was That was part one of three 240 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: of this tamper resistant packaging. That little plastic seal over 241 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: the top of the bottle after you open it. Uh 242 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: oh no, no, the the plastic is over the cap 243 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: on the outside of the bottle. Yeah, like the plastic foil, 244 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: and then the the actual foil was over the mouth 245 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: of the bottle that we all have to poke through 246 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: now to pull out the and whatever still uses cotton. 247 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: None of that existed until the beginning of ninet. So 248 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: all three of these are put in place within six weeks. Uh. 249 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: Not only that, they said, you know what, we're going 250 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: to introduce the caplet, which everyone knows now it was 251 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: we didn't have them back then. Everything was a little 252 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: capsule that you could literally pull apart and you could 253 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: snort the Thailand all if you wanted to. Quite sure 254 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: some people did. I'm sure someone did. But the caplet 255 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: is you know, a tablet coated with an easy to 256 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: swallow a gelatine. It's solid, it's um I imagine you 257 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: could tamper with it. And even I even saw with 258 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: all these things in place, they said, nothing is tamper proof. 259 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: But these measures really went a long way to restore 260 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: the public, uh you know, well, like the good feelings 261 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: about what was going on. Yeah, within about a year 262 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: Thailand all Or Johnson and Johnson managed to win the 263 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: public's trust back in Thailand. All that's hard to believe. Yeah, 264 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: that was really fast. But it also goes to show 265 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: like just how perfectly. They did everything from that from 266 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: the time they committed to it on. Yeah, and I 267 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: feel like I remember like commercials with CEOs and stuff 268 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: addressing the public. He became I can't remember his name. 269 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: I want to say Geoffrey Beam and it's like a 270 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: shoe brand. Getty Johnson, No, um, Bill Johnson Johnson, Yes, this, 271 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: I can't remember his name, but he Jimmy Johnson is 272 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: way far away from that. UM. But he became a 273 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: public face. He would, you know, go on to sixty 274 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: minutes and and he talked to Dan Rather and take 275 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: Copple and all those cats. Like he he was out 276 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: there like showing how much the company cared. Yeah, And 277 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: it had had a huge effect. And then in Congress 278 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: got involved. They passed what they dubbed the Thailand All Bill, 279 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: which basically says, if you do something like this is 280 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: now a federal offense. A few years later, in nine UM, 281 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: the f d A actually established guidelines for manufacturers of 282 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: any product really to make it tamper proof. Yeah, because 283 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't just the O. T C manufacturers that that 284 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: started doing this, they followed suit very quickly once Thailand 285 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: All came out with it, because they kind of had 286 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,479 Speaker 1: to if they wanted to keep up with tile and all. Um. 287 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: But also the uh, the manufacturers of everything, like every product, 288 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: every consumer products started putting their products in like tamper 289 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: proof packaging. Dial soap started coming wrapped in cellophane inside 290 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: the box trap the chemicals in, I guess. But also 291 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: to show like nobody's injected this with lie or something 292 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: like that, although lie is used in the making a soap, 293 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: isn't it. I remember my Fight Club. It's pretty funny 294 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: someone injected soap into the soap. All right, let's take 295 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: another break and we'll come back and talk a little 296 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: bit more about the profile of the supposed mad poisoner 297 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: right after this stop. All right, So, uh, this was 298 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: a very big case at the time, obviously, like we've 299 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: been saying, it was a landmark case. Um, so of 300 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: course you're going to get um psychological profiles, which you 301 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: know we should do one in profiling. Actually have we 302 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: done that? I don't think so it'd be a good 303 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: one because it always like seems like the trope in 304 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: movies and TV. But it is kind of like that. 305 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: It is a thing, for sure. It's not like they 306 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: just make this stuff up. But in the end they said, 307 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, this is probably a man in his twenties 308 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: or thirties who was sort of a Jekyl and Hide 309 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: type during the day. He's very ordinary. You could be 310 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: in the desk cubicle next to you and you wouldn't 311 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: even know it. Every once in a while you just 312 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: hear and go, yeah exactly. But deep in his in 313 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: the recesses of his brain, everyone, he's plagued with self 314 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: doubt and has an illusion that a random killing can 315 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: boost his sense of self worth self worth. Um, which 316 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: is just sounds like a straight out of a movie. 317 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: It sounds like a psychiatrist thing. I want to be 318 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: on TV. Yeah, listen to me. Uh. They also speculated, 319 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: and this is just completely like conjecture was that he 320 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: had probably already taken his own life after the killings. 321 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: That was one specific person that Yeah, it was I 322 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: think like the medical examiner for Cook County. Yeah, Um, 323 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: he probably already jumped off the bridge, So don't worry 324 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: about it. Don't worry everybody. Uh. Yeah, he just threw 325 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: that out there. I don't know if it was the 326 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: calm people or not, but or maybe he's just throwing 327 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: his two cents in. But um, I think you kind 328 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: of said it earlier. I don't remember if it was 329 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: part owner, parts two. The whole things is blurred and 330 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: become a haze by now. But um, no one has 331 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: ever been charged with the Thailand All murders. Yeah, but 332 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: there has been a lot. There were a lot of suspects. 333 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: Remember Thailand. I'll set up a hotline and this Thailand 334 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: All task Force, a hundred and forty person strong task 335 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: force investigating this, chasing down leads, taking calls on the hotline. 336 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: Thousands and thousands of calls that were coming in. Um, 337 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: they were trying to whittle those down into actual tips 338 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: that were worth pursuing, and out of all of them, 339 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: they they deemed twelve hundred tips und leads worth checking out. 340 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: There's a lot of leads for a case, um, even 341 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: even considering yet a hundred and forty people working them. 342 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: And I read somewhere that they started out with like 343 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: twenty thousand suspects or something like that and whittled it 344 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: down to four hundred. Yeah, And the sort of the 345 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: sad part as as quickly as they sort of figured 346 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: a lot of this out and had that hundred and 347 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: forty person task force. They almost just as quickly, within 348 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: a few months, realized that, like, we don't have a 349 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: very good chance at finding this person. Yeah, it became 350 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: clear very quickly. Yeah, they whittled that down. By the 351 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: last week of October, the task force was down to 352 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: forty people. By the end of the year it was 353 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: down to twenty. And it was a situation again where 354 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: you didn't have security cameras everywhere, you didn't have credit 355 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: cards and debit cards um creating paper trails. It was 356 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: a lot easier back then to get away with something 357 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: like this too, um to be completely unknown, to walk 358 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: into a store, maybe slip some Thailand all into your pocket, 359 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: go out to the parking lot and come back in 360 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: and slipping back on the shelf. If you're really easy, 361 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: you won't even go to the trouble of buying it. Yeah, 362 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: I guess that's a good point. Steal it and then 363 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: put it. But you know, people were using cash. If 364 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: there were UH cameras in a place, they were probably 365 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: trained on employee is. I worked at a golden pantry 366 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: in college and the only camera we had was directly 367 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: above us, pointing down at the catch register. It was 368 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: the one of alps in in Atlanta Highway. Alps No, 369 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: the one on the east side College Station Road. I think, yeah, 370 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: very interesting job. That's the one where I got a job. 371 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: I needed a job. I got a job at McDonald's 372 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: and I showed up. I took the one hour training 373 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: video and they got my uniform number. I went home 374 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: and I was supposed to show up the next day 375 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: and I was just like, I can't do it. I 376 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: can't go work at McDonald's. And I got the Golden 377 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: Pantry job later that day, which, hey man, sure, it's 378 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: like sign me up from Golden Arches to Golden Pantry. 379 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: That's like a rags richest story. I was selling beer 380 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: and cigarettes. Nice. It was pretty great. You're like one 381 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: for you, one for me. Oh I would never do that. Um, 382 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: all right, where was I? Oh? Yeah, I was at 383 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: Golden Pantry. So the cameras trained on the register, they're 384 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: not they're not. You know, you could come and go 385 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: in a store and no one even knows it was 386 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: cops have nothing to go on. Most importantly, no motive. 387 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: That was a big one because remember this is just 388 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: a jekylin Hyde type who you'd never suspect, who's probably 389 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the Chicago River, right, who also 390 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: is engaged in some senseless random killings of people, anonymous 391 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: poisoning killing, not even shooting. It just made zero sense whatsoever. So, 392 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: like we said earlier, the cops figured out within about 393 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: a month, within the first month of the investigation, that 394 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: this was they were not going to have a break 395 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: in this case. But it's not to say that they 396 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: didn't have some suspects. Some people definitely did kind of 397 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: come to come to the four, but not many of them. Yeah, 398 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: but these two are really interesting sub stories in and 399 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: of themselves. The first guy's name was last name Arnold, 400 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: first name Roger, Roger, that's right, I call him Richard. 401 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: That's all right, But for good reason, Oh sure, because 402 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: you said he was like the Richard Jewel of his day, 403 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: the Olympic bomber, who was not the bomber, right, but 404 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: whose life was ruined because he basically was implicated as 405 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: the Olympic bomber. The same thing happened to this guy. Yeah, 406 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: he was one of the first named suspects, forty nine 407 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 1: year old guy. So so put yourself in the position. Okay, 408 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: the media is going berserk on this story. Everybody hears 409 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: about it. It's a mad anonymous poisoner, and now all 410 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: of a sudden there's a name and a face associated 411 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: with it. Who's a suspect, but he's the first person name. 412 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: It's like people going crazy, like trying to get to 413 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: this guy to interview him. Yeah. I have my doubts 414 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: about this guy. Not that he did that, but there 415 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: are a lot of hinky things that they found out 416 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: about him and then how it all ended up as 417 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: you're about to see. So he was a d i 418 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: y chemist. It's a big one. There's a big thing 419 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: right there, because into chemistry. He said, he's a Jacqueline 420 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: Hyde type. He's probably into chemistry. That's right. He was 421 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: a dock hand at jewel Foods at a warehouse west 422 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: of Chicago. Jewel Foods, a couple of different jewel foods 423 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: are where the was bought, like a grocery store, food market. 424 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: It's all checking out so far. Um, So the cops 425 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: look into him and go to his house. He has 426 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: a book, a handbook rather on methods of killing people? 427 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: How did kill people? A dizzy? I don't know if 428 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: that's the title, but okay, that's a good one. He 429 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: had five unregistered guns. It's a big one. He admitted 430 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: to having cyanide once. Yeah, but he said I threw 431 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: it out like at least six months before these murders. 432 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: He's like, the murders again, Oh, yes, six months before that. 433 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: That's and then his wife said, you know they're investigating 434 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: her and interviewing her. She was like, you know what, 435 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: Actually I did take some tile in all and felt 436 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: really sick and throw up one time. But again I 437 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: was it was probably due to over eating, and it 438 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: was just that once. That's the fact of the podcast. 439 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: So like he can't blame cops for saying, this guy 440 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: is a pretty good lead, yeah, because you can kind 441 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: of start to see, like if you add all the 442 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: other stuff together, and then hear about the wife throwing 443 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: up from Thailand, all we like, could you see this 444 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: guy like toying with his wife, like testing it out 445 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: on her just enough to make her sick, but not 446 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: to kill her, to see what happened, you know, see 447 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: if she would notice? Who knows. But the cops thoroughly 448 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: investigated this guy and cleared him. There there's not a 449 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: there's not a person associated with the story that I 450 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: came across who said I actually think this guy did it. 451 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: I didn't find one person who thought Ronald Roger Arnold 452 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: actually did it. But in very short order he proved 453 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: that he was more than capable of murder because six 454 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: months after he was cleared as a suspect, he was 455 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: brought in for the murder of somebody else. A guy 456 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: named John Stenishaw Stanisha would say, yeah, I'm going with 457 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: that too, sons Slovak or something. Yeah, he was forty six, 458 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: he was a Chicago UM computer consultant, and that's saying 459 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: some yeah, probably so um. So here's what happened Arnold. 460 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: There was his bar gender name or bar owner named 461 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 1: Marty Sinclair, who Arnold had thought had initially turned him 462 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: into the cops and ruined his life essentially. So he 463 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: goes to kill who he thinks is Marty Sinclair, and 464 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: it's actually this just completely innocent random guy who gets 465 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: shot point blank. And so he in fact did kill somebody. 466 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: He did because of what had happened to his life. 467 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: It was premeditated murder, even though it was the wrong person. 468 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: He was definitely he created an intentional homicide. He killed 469 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: somebody on purpose, mistaken identity killing though right, and because 470 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: of this, because it was directly related to the taile 471 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: and all poisonings, John stanisha is Um frequently considered an 472 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: eighth victim of the tie in all killings, kind of 473 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: like an honorary um victim in this case. But it 474 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: is kind of appropriate that he just happened to be 475 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: in the wrong place at the wrong time, a victim 476 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: of mistaken identity. You know, it would have like a 477 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: slightly different ring to it if it had been the 478 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: right guy. The fact that it was the wrong guy 479 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: and the poor dude just happened to be in the 480 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: wrong bar and happened to look like the owner, that's 481 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: just it just it's perfect for this for this saga. Yeah, 482 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: I wonder what Marty Sinclair thought about all that. I'll 483 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: bet he was not very happy, probably not, but probably 484 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: also very relieved and probably also guilt. Yeah, I would 485 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: guess there's a touch of that, a range of emotions 486 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: I would imagine, yeah, all over the place. So Arnold 487 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 1: ended up serving fifteen years of a thirty year sentence, 488 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: was released in ninety nine, and died nine years later. Yep, 489 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: so chuck. Before we go on to the main attraction, 490 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: as far as the suspects go, I propose that we 491 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: take break. Okay, we'll be right back. Stop alright, Chuck. 492 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: So this dude, there was basically two suspects in this 493 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: whole case. Over all these years, there are basically two people. 494 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: And again no one was ever actually charged with the murders. 495 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: But this guy came awfully close and his name was 496 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: James Lewis, it turns out it was. But James Lewis 497 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: came under the attention of the Chicago p D and 498 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: the Thailand All Task Force when a letter showed up 499 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: at Johnson and Johnson headquarters and it was from allegedly 500 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: the Thailand All Poisoner, the Mad Poisoner. And in the 501 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: letter it said basically like I've spent fifty dollars so far, 502 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: and the whole thing is taking me about ten minutes 503 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: per bottle, and I've already killed seven people. I basically 504 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: see no reason to stop. Pay me one million dollars 505 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: and then I will stop the killings. And he gave 506 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: a bank account number. He said, wire me this money 507 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: very very presidently. No that's not the right word. Uh, 508 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: stupidly maybe, but is it. No, it's not. So this 509 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: letter has a New York postmark, but the bank account 510 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: is associated with the travel agency in Chicago, and so 511 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: the cops go, Okay, this seems like it was dropped 512 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: in our lap, but let's go check it out. And 513 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: they find the owner of this travel agency that had 514 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: closed up and gone under um. And this guy is like, 515 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: oh my god, you're kidding me. It's like, no, I 516 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: didn't write this letter, but I can guarantee I can 517 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: tell you who did, as a guy named Robert Richardson. 518 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: Robert Richardson, it turned out, was the husband of a 519 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: woman named Nancy Richardson who had worked at the travel agency, 520 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: and when the travel agency went belly up, Nancy lost 521 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: her job and never got her last paycheck. Well, Robert 522 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: Richardson was the type of guy who would fixate on this, 523 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: and was even more so the type of guy who 524 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: would write a letter to frame the owner of the 525 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: travel agency for the thaile and all murderers in retaliation 526 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: for that last paycheck. He was that kind of dude. 527 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: And so the cops started sniffing into this Robert Richardson 528 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: cat and they figured out pretty quickly that Robert Richardson 529 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: didn't actually exist, that he was actually somebody else, a 530 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: man named James Lewis. So when we joked earlier about 531 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: is that his real name, and you said it was, 532 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: it was, it was. His name was not Robert Richardson though, 533 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: that was an alias. So what they found out was 534 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: that Robert Richardson was a tax consultant. UM. He had 535 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: and this is just a strange, ironic twist. When he 536 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: was twenty years old, he tried to take his own 537 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: life by swallowing aspirin thirty six of them. Yeah, so 538 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: that's just neither here nor there. But an interesting little 539 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: side note, Yeah, the fact that that, like most people 540 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: don't have that as part of their past. Yeah, it 541 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: is interesting that it came up. So he had a 542 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: pretty long rap sheet. He was wanted by postal inspectors 543 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: for credit card fraud in Kansas City, UM. He was 544 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: indicted in ninety eight for and this one is just 545 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: mind blowing. He's indicted for murder after police found remains 546 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: of one of his former clients in bags in his 547 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: attic and he got let loose because it was an 548 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: illegal search. But he he was caught with the body 549 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: of one of his clients was dismembered in his attic 550 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: with no good explanation as far as I've ever heard. Yeah, 551 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: so Joe, well what explanation would be good? Well, we 552 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: were playing poker and one thing I do another started 553 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: juggling swords and yeah, uh so his wife real name 554 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: was Leanne, the one who worked at the travel agency 555 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: and went unpaid. They fled Kansas City in December of 556 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: eighty one. Um, and this was as US Postal inspectors 557 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: were converging on them about this credit card scheme. So 558 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: they're like, just bad people, not the postal inspectors. No. Great, 559 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: So they moved to Chicago. They changed their names to 560 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: Robert Nancy Nancy Richardson. He got that job as a 561 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: text preparer, but then he was fired after a violent 562 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: outburst in his office against his co workers. Um. And 563 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: then she lost her job, went unpaid. They left Chicago, 564 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: and this turns out this is what got them exonerated 565 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: from the time. All thing is they left Chicago and 566 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: moved to New York before this happened before same month. Right, 567 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: But if the theory held up that this person went 568 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: around most likely in one day and did all this stuff, 569 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: then it couldn't have been them. No, And here's why 570 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: because the cops had decided that it was done locally. 571 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: And one of the other things that supported that local 572 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: mad poisoner theory was because the cyanide eight through the 573 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: gelatine capsules eventually, so I had a very very short 574 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: shelf life before the whole bottle just turned into a 575 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: mush of cyani powder and melted gelatine. So, like you said, 576 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: it had to have been done basically the day before. 577 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: They n they could not, no matter how hard they tried, 578 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: They could not put James Lewis or his wife in 579 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: Chicago that day. They just couldn't. And for his part, 580 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: James Lewis said, yeah, I wrote this letter. I wrote 581 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: the letter of Johnson and Johnson framing that travel agency guy. 582 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: But I did not. I did not poison the title 583 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: at all. He's always been adamant about that. He's never 584 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: toyed around with it. He's never messed around, he's never 585 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: been coy He's always been adamant that he did not 586 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: poison that title at all. Although the title in all 587 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: task force tried to trip him up once. I guess 588 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: to just get this on the record that he'd done this, 589 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: but they asked him like in an in an interview. Okay, 590 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: let's say you had done it, how would you have 591 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: done it? And he actually pulled an o J. He 592 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: showed them how he would have done it. Yeah. He 593 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: just didn't write a book about it. He just showed 594 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: him in an interview. Yeah. And he defends this later 595 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: on by saying it was just a speculative scenario. I 596 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: could tell you how Julius Caesar was killed, but that 597 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: doesn't mean I was the killer. I think the answer 598 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: for me would have been I don't know, man, Yeah, 599 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm innocent. I don't I can't figure this out. But 600 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: he's like, here's how I do I've been waiting for 601 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: you to ask me though. Uh. He's eventually found in 602 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: New York City. He's at the Public Library UM with 603 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: a reference book, copying names and addresses of newspapers. Uh. 604 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: I would imagine to send them letters like zodiac style. Yeah, 605 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: because so look, we gotta say this. So the cups 606 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: figured out who James Lewis was before they found James Lewis, 607 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: and it became part of the national media um circus. 608 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: While they were looking for James Lewis, this guy was 609 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: writing letters to newspapers. He called in a radio talk show. 610 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: He was really relishing the fact that there was a 611 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: national man hunt out for him. Who like, that's that's 612 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. On the one hand, you gotta kind 613 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: of feel a little bit bad that this guy was 614 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: kind of being railroaded into, you know, the rap for 615 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: these murders. After his extortion attempt, that's where the feeling 616 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 1: bad firms. You're like, oh, yeah, that's right. He totally 617 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: brought this on himself. Yeah. So they hauled him out 618 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: of the New York Public Library. He was sentenced to 619 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: ten years for extortion attempt, in ten years for credit 620 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: that original credit card fraud, and served thirteen years and 621 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: lives in the Greater Boston area today. So still today there, 622 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: I think there are a few people who are like, 623 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: I could see this guy he maybe maybe he could, 624 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: he could be at some Some detectives maintain that the 625 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: Thailand All murder could have flown into O'Hare running a car, 626 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: done that circuit, flown or driven back to a hair 627 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: and flown out all on the same day the day before, 628 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: But they could never put James Lewis in Chicago at 629 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: all that day. Um, So he was cleared finally, although 630 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: he did serve two consecutive ten years sentences, reserved thirteen 631 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: of the twenty years for that credit card fraud that 632 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: the Postal Inspectors wanted him for and for the extortion letter. Um. 633 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: And like you said, he lives in Cambridge, mass now. 634 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: But then in two thousand nine, the case, after basically 635 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: having gone dormant in the early eighties, was reignited by 636 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 1: the FBI because they worked up they thought a DNA 637 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: profile from the capsules, and they rated James Lewis's house. 638 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 1: UM demanded a fingerprint and DNA sample. James and Leanne 639 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: Lewis fought it in court. The judges like, no, you 640 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: have to do this. Before leaving the courthouse, they gave 641 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: him the samples and nothing has come of it. So 642 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: I guess that means tacitly that the Lewises were cleared 643 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: once and for all of the Thailand all murders. Yeah, 644 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: and you know, the d n A thing is an 645 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: interesting piece because, Um, they still have some samples of 646 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: the cyanide. I guess that the capsules have have worn 647 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: away by now if it had the cyanide in there, 648 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: But there was and still his hope, UM that DNA 649 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: could could crack this case. Um, just like eight or 650 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: nine years ago, the unibomber ted Kazinski. Is that a 651 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: two parter? No, no, it's just one parter. Good podcast, 652 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: So I don't think so that was a good episode. Uh. 653 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: He grew up in Chicago and his parents were living 654 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: in the Greater Chicago area in eight two, and he 655 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: is the UNI bomber. So they said we might as 656 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: well get a DNA sample and talk to him, and um, 657 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: he was cleared. I don't think he was ever a 658 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: super strong suspect and he probably would have admitted it. 659 00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: So he was like, no, this is not me right. So, um, 660 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: the UNI bomber has been cleared. That's right from the 661 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 1: talent on Merbers. But that remains the case remains unsolved 662 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: to this day. I think they also have a fingerprint 663 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: work up that they found on one of the bottles 664 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: and that in some DNA. It's is they're just sitting 665 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: around with that. There's there are no suspects there. Every 666 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: suspect has been cleared, um, and there's nobody on the horizon. 667 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: It's just an unsolved random series of killings that happened. Yeah, 668 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: they're still working on it though. Um, there's a police 669 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: sergeant named Scott Winkleman who has been on this task 670 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: force for a long time, and he says he thinks 671 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: it's solvable. UM and his department did just sawve a 672 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: forty five year old murder case cold case. Man, if 673 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,479 Speaker 1: they solved this one, that would be the biggest cold 674 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: case ever solved. I think so. I think. I mean, 675 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: who knows, But I could see maybe finding like a 676 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: deathbed letter or something one day, like I don't know 677 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: if they're going to catch someone and at the bottom 678 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: of the Chicago River in all wo to jail. But UM, 679 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 1: I could see the truth coming out one day. I 680 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: hope so for the families because Um Monica Janie, she's 681 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: the niece of Adam Stanley and Teresa. She said, her 682 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: family to this day, this was from an article like 683 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 1: last year. I think, UM said that they have still 684 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 1: not gotten over it. She said. Her grandparents have passed now, 685 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: but she said, literally every day for the rest of 686 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: their lives, they just cried about, uh, the fact that 687 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: they didn't know who did it. Um. She grew up. 688 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: It has been a therapy therapy her whole life because Um, 689 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: there were all victims you know that this post traumatic 690 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: stress disorder kicks in where she grew up fearing that 691 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: any of her family members could die at any time. UM. 692 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: Joseph Manus, her her dad, says that he still has 693 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: dreams like you know on the rag about these murders. Um. 694 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: He said he had one recently where everyone involved was 695 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: in a room in the case. Uh, and then two 696 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: black men in suits and glasses, we're laughing about how 697 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: they got away with murder. UM. Michelle Rosen, she's the 698 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,439 Speaker 1: daughter of Mary Reiner. Um. She has dedicated her life 699 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: to investigating this on her own, and she doesn't agree 700 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: with the loan the mad poisoner theory at all. No, 701 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: this is this is interesting. Yeah. She thinks it had 702 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: something to do with the supply chain and that Johnson 703 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: and Johnson knew this and covered it up. UM. One 704 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: of the things, one of the things that people who 705 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 1: believe this point to is that Johnson and Johnson recalled 706 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: all of that Thailand, all thirty one million bottles, and 707 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: then destroyed them allegedly without testing any of it. So 708 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: we will never know whether it was Pinky had the 709 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: day off right, whether whether it was beyond Chicago or 710 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: just local in Chicago. Seems like it took long enough 711 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: that other people would have died in that week before 712 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: the national recall was undertaken. But um, there was something 713 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: very very interesting that was a post script to all 714 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: this that does under mind that mad poisoner theory. Yeah, 715 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: it was just a few years later a woman in 716 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: New York named Diane h ells Roth took two extra 717 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: strength tile in all capsules and died from cyanide poisoning. Um, 718 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: but they found I mean, it's just completely unrelated. Was 719 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: it another copycat case well, or or the original poisoner? Maybe? 720 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: So this different cyanide, right, the cyanide was definitely not 721 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: the same size some from the same batch. It was 722 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: chemically different. But there was another bottle found around the 723 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: block from where Mary ELL's Roth bought hers and Yonkers 724 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: that did match that cyanide. So there were two bottles 725 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: of extra strength tileent all two years later in another 726 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: state that had been UM tampered with. The problem is 727 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: this was after the three pronged tamper resistant packaging had 728 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: been UM introduced, which means it was an inside job, right, 729 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: I guess because the tamper the thing had not beenbviously 730 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: tampered with. Then Thailand all was never able to explain 731 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 1: what happened. Yeah, and then within five days of her death, 732 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: eight states outright band the capsules, Thailand all capsules, right, 733 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: and Thailand All for its part, was like, we've been 734 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: trying to get everybody to take capulets anyway, but they 735 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: keep taking capsules, so we're making it. And then a 736 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: guy wrote a book, right, Um Scott Bart's Yeah, a 737 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,760 Speaker 1: former Johnson and Johnson employee, UM wrote in two thousand 738 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: eleven a self published book UM on the Time of 739 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: All Poisonings, and he said what we were talking about earlier. 740 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: He's like, the supply chain is so convoluted, Um, basically 741 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: like it could definitely could have happened at any point 742 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: along the way. And his his idea is that that 743 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson knew that it was in their distribution 744 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: network and they covered it up self published book. You 745 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: gotta you gotta note that for sure. I'm not knocking it, no, 746 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: but it's noteworthy. It does if there's like any hint 747 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: of journalistic integrity and us that feels like we have 748 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: to note that. Sure. So that's the Taile and all 749 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,760 Speaker 1: poisonings of nineteen eighty two in Chicago, changed America, changed 750 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: the world, but definitely changed America. It was the end 751 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: of some form of innocence that we still had. Absolutely, 752 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the tile and 753 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: all poisonings, go online. There's stuff all over the place 754 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,919 Speaker 1: and you can go down that rabbit hole and it's 755 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: deep and wide. Since I said that, it's time for listener, 756 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: ma'am uh. This is from Gin from Brunswick, Maine. Hey, guys, 757 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 1: been listening for several years and never thought I'd have 758 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: a never thought a perfect time right to write in 759 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,919 Speaker 1: would be related to synthetic farts. Remember the discussed episode 760 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: talked about synthe synthetic parts. It's a real thing. When 761 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: I was in high school, my dad came across the 762 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: stuff online called liquid a s s as horrible. Not 763 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,359 Speaker 1: allowed to curse right, no occur would spell it out though, 764 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: um or, I guess maybe you should have said like 765 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: a asterisk asterisk. Yeah, there you go, good name for 766 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: a product, though. She said he found it on a 767 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,800 Speaker 1: joke web website in ordered something and I have to 768 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: tell you it is the worst thing you've ever smelled. 769 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 1: I can't even describe it. It makes you want to 770 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: not breathe anymore. The tiniest little drop is deadly, So 771 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: of course I took it to college with me to 772 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 1: play pranks, and boy did it backfire. I thought it 773 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: was pretty funny putting a couple of drops in the 774 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: radiator by my across the friend across the hall friends room, 775 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: not eating, thinking and not even thinking about what would 776 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: happen when the heat turned on. Well, the heat turned 777 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: on and the whole floor of the dorm was amazingly 778 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: disgusting and made us just about gag. Smell took almost 779 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: a week to finally go away, and I have not 780 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,240 Speaker 1: used it again in the ten year since. It's probably 781 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: it's called learning your lesson, But she still has the 782 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,479 Speaker 1: bottle she's like, but I kept it just in case. 783 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for your interesting and entertaining podcast. This is 784 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: the first podcast I ever listened to, and it's still 785 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: always on the top of my download list. Thanks for 786 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: giving this twenty eight year old woman a platform on 787 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: which to tell a story of synthetic farts that is 788 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: not completely out of place. Signed anonymous that is Jen Green. 789 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 1: Thanks Jen Green, very brave you to put your name 790 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: on that one. Especially I wonder if you stepped up 791 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: and said, uh, that horrible smell. That was my bad. Right. 792 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: If you have a great story about college pranks, we 793 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: want to hear about it. Um. You can get in 794 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: touch with this via our social links by going to 795 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: stuff you Should Know dot com, or you can send 796 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: us an email to stuff podcast at i heeart radio 797 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of 798 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit 799 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 800 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.