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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holmes, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and.

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Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

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Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones. How's it going, Kate, It's going well.

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Speaker 1: How's it going with you?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing good. You know.

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting here thinking. You have this whole other job

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Speaker 2: at the University of Texas. You're a professor out there.

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Speaker 2: What are you a professor of? I know, but what

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Speaker 2: do you teach exactly?

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Speaker 4: I'm a professor of knowing it all?

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Speaker 1: No, I'm a journalism professor, so I actually do have

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Speaker 1: to know a little tiny bit about it feels like everything.

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Speaker 1: I teach video journalism, so films that are in the

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Speaker 1: journalistic sense in the world of journalism, things that maybe

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Speaker 1: you would see on the New York Times or the

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Speaker 1: New Yorker short films. And so I've taught journalism for

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Speaker 1: the past fifteen years or so, and I was at

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Speaker 1: Pordham University before. And I love teaching. I love podcasts,

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Speaker 1: I love writing books. I love everything that I do.

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Speaker 1: But there is really something special about talking to students

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Speaker 1: in person and helping them one on one with projects.

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Speaker 1: That's primarily what I do is I'll say, let's do

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Speaker 1: a book proposal or a magazine article or video, and

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Speaker 1: then I'll work with him a lot over zoom or

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Speaker 1: in person over getting the project to be where they

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Speaker 1: wanted to be, and oftentimes it leads to jobs. I

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Speaker 1: love working with college students. It's just always been something.

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Speaker 1: My dad was a law professor for thirty seven years. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I got it from that.

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Speaker 3: You.

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Speaker 4: I think would be.

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Speaker 1: An excellent professor with twee jackets. I think I could

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Speaker 1: totally see professor holes. Are you have you ever taught before?

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Speaker 1: Have you done anything in a university setting?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I would teach frequently within law enforcement.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would teach.

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Speaker 2: At advanced officer classes typically sexual assault investigators or homicide

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Speaker 2: investigators and kind of get them up to speed on

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Speaker 2: basics within forensics, understanding a DNA report, crime scene investigations.

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Speaker 2: And then towards the end of my career, I was

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Speaker 2: teaching a course on the introduction and recognition of the

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Speaker 2: serial predator because I was just seeing law enforcement just

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Speaker 2: does not understand that type of offend. But I was

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Speaker 2: a guest lecturer at Saint Mary's College to some undergrads,

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Speaker 2: and the professor there was asking me to see if

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Speaker 2: I could you join the staff to be available ongoing,

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Speaker 2: and I do enjoy it. I just get so you know,

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Speaker 2: my passion.

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Speaker 3: Is the cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So to be more in an academic setting versus

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Speaker 2: being out in the field, I would lean to being

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Speaker 2: out in the field.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the challenges I have is balancing

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Speaker 1: the travel with a show like tenfold more Wicked versus

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Speaker 1: being able to be here with you like with wicked

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Speaker 1: words and with buried Bones and going down to the university.

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Speaker 1: It's all a big balance for me, and it can

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Speaker 1: be a little bit complicated. But to do the math

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Speaker 1: and to say that I had a hand in helping

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Speaker 1: just hundreds and hundreds of students over the years who

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Speaker 1: then go on and help people and have wonderful careers

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Speaker 1: in journalism and many going on to teach.

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Speaker 4: It's been very satisfying to me.

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Speaker 1: But finding I always tell my kids all the time,

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Speaker 1: sometimes people don't have just one passion, there's no one

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Speaker 1: root sometimes to finding things that can make you feel

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Speaker 1: creative and fulfilled, and that's really how I feel about teaching.

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Speaker 1: But I'd also be lost without podcasts and books. So

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Speaker 1: it's all a bit about learning who you are.

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Speaker 4: And it's good for.

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Speaker 1: You to know that being in a classroom setting full

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Speaker 1: time would not be for you. But if you ever

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Speaker 1: come to Austin, Texas, and I think you will someday,

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Speaker 1: you will be guest lecturing in one of my classes.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely I'd look forward to that. Now, I want to know,

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Speaker 2: what do your students call you? Do they call you

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Speaker 2: professor Kate?

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Speaker 4: No, they call me Kate.

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Speaker 3: They just call you Kate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Professor Dustin was my dad.

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Speaker 1: I could be called professor, but they try, and I

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Speaker 1: always just say Kate. Just from my newsroom days. But

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Speaker 1: when I started teaching, I was at Fordham. I was

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Speaker 1: twenty eight. My dad started teaching when he was twenty

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Speaker 1: eight too, and he sent me this wonderful black and

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Speaker 1: white photo of him teaching his first year and he

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Speaker 1: sent it to me to put in my office. And

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Speaker 1: I was just a few years older than the students

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Speaker 1: I had, So it's very strange they stay the same

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Speaker 1: and I just keep getting older and.

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Speaker 2: Older and older, but wiser and wiser.

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Speaker 4: Right, maybe occasionally.

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Speaker 1: But the reason that we're talking about this is because

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Speaker 1: the case that we're getting ready to talk about is

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Speaker 1: in the area where I went to school at Boston

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Speaker 1: University undergrad and this takes place at Harvard Medical School,

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Speaker 1: and this is about a professor who gets himself into

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Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. Money is always a motivator for murder,

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Speaker 1: and this is the case that people have heard of before.

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Speaker 1: But I want to take a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: different look because it's not as cut and dry once

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Speaker 1: I started reading about it as I thought it was.

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Speaker 1: And this will be interesting because there's a lot of forensics,

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Speaker 1: some of which I don't really understand, so we'll talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that. So this is somewhere that

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to enjoy. It's very Halloween e

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Speaker 1: even though we're not in Halloween. But I'm a big

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Speaker 1: believer and always telling Halloween type stories year round, so

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Speaker 1: I'm happy this is happening in November.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, let's hear it.

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Speaker 4: Let's go, let's set the seen.

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Speaker 1: So this is a crime actually on the campus of

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Speaker 1: Harvard Medical School. This is eighteen forty nine, and this

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Speaker 1: is a time period when they were using cadavers to

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Speaker 1: teach medical students about surgery and people who have heard

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Speaker 1: tenfold more wicked. If you've heard season two about Birkenhare

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Speaker 1: in Scotland, you know all about this where the church

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Speaker 1: in Christianity, it was forbidden, both in the United States

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Speaker 1: and in Europe much of the time for doctors to

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Speaker 1: take cadavers who were donated to them. It was illegal

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Speaker 1: to do that. They would use grave robbers and they

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Speaker 1: would buy cadavers from them, and that's how they would

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Speaker 1: teach medical students how to do surgery, was to be

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Speaker 1: able to work on an actual cadaver. And it was

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Speaker 1: becoming problematic in the eighteen hundreds because they were rewriting

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Speaker 1: the laws so that there weren't as many executions, and

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Speaker 1: executed bodies were the only bodies that many medical professors

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Speaker 1: could use. So with fewer executed bodies, you have fewer cadavers.

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Speaker 1: And that's where the rise of the body snatchers slash

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Speaker 1: the ghouls who would dig up graves where that came from.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure that you've heard all about the grave

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Speaker 1: robbers that have happened over the centuries.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting to me is, like with the grave robbers,

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Speaker 2: if they are in business with the medical institutions, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the bodies that they have to be providing have to

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Speaker 2: be fresh. Oh, very They can't be digging up somebody

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Speaker 2: who's been buried, you know, five years ago.

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Speaker 1: Now they're very fresh. And I hate saying fresh bodies.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's the reality of it. They're one or

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Speaker 1: two days in. And what they would do for what

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Speaker 1: I found in my story in Scotland is the families

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Speaker 1: would hire guards to sit there with shotguns and they

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Speaker 1: actually built towers all over big cities, including in New England,

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Speaker 1: where they would have people just sitting watch with the shotgun,

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Speaker 1: making sure there wasn't anybody to dig up a grave.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that I didn't really realize

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Speaker 1: when I was interviewing an expert on Burke and Hair,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, these two guys killed all of

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Speaker 1: these people when they could have just gone and rob

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Speaker 1: graved And she said, honestly, it's easier to kill someone

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Speaker 1: than it is to rob a grave because you have

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Speaker 1: to dig down so far, and then they.

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Speaker 4: Would have to figure out a way.

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Speaker 1: They didn't want to dig up the whole grave, so

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Speaker 1: they would dig up one large hole, figured out where

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Speaker 1: the feet are, and then try to pull the feet

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Speaker 1: through the coffin or wherever they were, and then through

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Speaker 1: the mud and the muck. You can imagine that was

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Speaker 1: very labor intensive.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that would be tremendously hard to do.

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Speaker 2: One of the things with a fresh grave, though, is

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Speaker 2: the soil has already been disturbed, so it's not as

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Speaker 2: hard as like if you're digging a grave in virgin Earth.

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Speaker 2: We see this where people think I'm going to get

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Speaker 2: rid of a body by putting it into a grave,

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Speaker 2: and they abandon the effort to dig a deep grave.

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Speaker 3: It's always a show.

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Speaker 2: I mean, these graves are eighteen inches twenty four inches max.

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Speaker 3: Deep, but lots of work.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is ours at the cemetery, just be

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Speaker 2: able to get down to even if you're just getting

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Speaker 2: to a point to where you're trying to access just

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Speaker 2: part of the body.

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Speaker 3: That's a lot of time that you have to spend there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so doctor white Webster, who was the center

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Speaker 1: of this story, was a medical professor at Harvard. This

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Speaker 1: is the setting where we're in eighteen forty nine and

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Speaker 1: in this time period in Boston, this is where there's

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Speaker 1: a big gap between the very very wealthy and the

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Speaker 1: very very poor. But members of the wealthy class are

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Speaker 1: John White Webster. And then he has a friend named

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Speaker 1: George Parkman, who is also a doctor. And in this

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Speaker 1: time period, you know, you have people loaning money back

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Speaker 1: and forth. There's a lot of money around Boston area,

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Speaker 1: Cambridge area, and you're sort of having to keep up

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Speaker 1: with the Joneses. And John White Webster and I'll just

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Speaker 1: call him doctor Webster probably from now on. Doctor Webster

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Speaker 1: was one of those people who was trying to keep

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Speaker 1: up with the Joneses. They made money, Doctors made money,

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Speaker 1: medical professors made money, and they were living in luxurious

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Speaker 1: lifestyle ellen Brownstone's in Boston, and doctor Webster was well known.

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Speaker 1: He was well bred, brought up in a good family

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Speaker 1: with a lot of connections. And one of the issues

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Speaker 1: though that we're having is that these men were not

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Speaker 1: quite in the Gilded Age yet. In the guilded Age

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Speaker 1: is where people just spent ungodly amounts of money when

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Speaker 1: they didn't have it. But we're getting pretty close, and

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Speaker 1: in this society there were people who had not enough money,

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Speaker 1: but we're spending like they did. And Webster was one

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Speaker 1: of those people. So he had borrowed money from his friend,

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Speaker 1: George Parkman. And this is where we're having a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a problem because it seems like.

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Speaker 4: This is going to be a motive for murder.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's a little bit more complicated. So

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Speaker 1: let me just tell you what happens, and then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about money as a motive for murder. So November

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Speaker 1: twenty third, eighteen forty nine, in the middle of the afternoon, Parkman,

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Speaker 1: who is fifty nine years old, visits Webster and they're friends,

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Speaker 1: and Webster's at his laboratory on the campus of Harvard

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Speaker 1: Medical School. And the problem is is that this isn't

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Speaker 1: a friendly visit, which normally is is something these guys

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Speaker 1: we'd go and have a drink and they socialized.

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Speaker 4: They were in the same circles.

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Speaker 1: Partman wanted money from Webster because Webster owed him money.

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Speaker 1: And Parkman was at one point a practicing physician, but

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Speaker 1: then he essentially retired. He became a landlord and a businessman,

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Speaker 1: and he would loan money to his friends and he

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Speaker 1: wanted to come and collect. So let's just talk about

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Speaker 1: the idea of borrowing money from family members.

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Speaker 4: This is a motive, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Family members and friends when it's personal and maybe you

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Speaker 1: are borrowing this money with the feeling that maybe you

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Speaker 1: can get an extension or even get out of it

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Speaker 1: because of the personal relationship that you have with the lonner,

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Speaker 1: and then it creates acrimony that can get out of control, and.

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Speaker 3: It frequently does.

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Speaker 2: Usually when you're getting into a situation of borrowing something

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Speaker 2: from a family member or a friend, often the borrower

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Speaker 2: is in a predicament that repeats itself, and so now

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Speaker 2: they have to keep.

240
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Speaker 3: Borrowing more and more money, and.

241
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Speaker 2: The debt grows, and so the loaner or loaners this

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Speaker 2: becomes a bigger and bigger deal to them, and when

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Speaker 2: they realize I'm never going to get that money back,

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Speaker 2: that's when you start getting those spats within the family

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Speaker 2: or within the friendships. Breaking out, and sometimes those spats

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Speaker 2: grow into real violence.

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Speaker 1: And I think what also doesn't help here is when

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Speaker 1: you're married to someone who wants to overspend, that puts

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Speaker 1: more pressure on the friendship or the family. Then it

250
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Speaker 1: just gets and you know, I'm leading to a wife

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Speaker 1: who likes to throw lavish parties. When doctor Webster is

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Speaker 1: a chemistry professor, he doesn't make much money, but his

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Speaker 1: wife is spending money, which puts more pressure on his

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Speaker 1: relationship with doctor Parkman.

255
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Speaker 2: He's going to feel that he has to keep his

256
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Speaker 2: wife happy with being able to provide the money. Now,

257
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Speaker 2: is doctor Parkman when he's low money, is this with interests?

258
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Speaker 2: Is he expecting to get more money back? Or is

259
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,280
Speaker 2: this just to you know, a gentleman's handshake. I give you,

260
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Speaker 2: however much, and I expect within a certain period of

261
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Speaker 2: time you will give it back.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't appear to me that this is alone with interest.

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Speaker 1: I think he's just trying to help out a friend. Okay,

264
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Speaker 1: they're in the same social circles. He does loan money

265
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Speaker 1: to other people, But I don't get the impression that

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Speaker 1: this is something that he's really he wants his money back, Yeah,

267
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Speaker 1: he wants it repaid, but I don't department's trying to

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Speaker 1: make money off of this deal.

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Speaker 3: Well, and think about this one way flow of money. Here.

270
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Speaker 2: You have doctor Webster. He's borrowing money from his friend.

271
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Speaker 2: Part of the reason he's borrowing this money is to

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Speaker 2: support his wife's lifestyle, throwing these lavish parties. Now, she's

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Speaker 2: probably not charging an admission fee to come to these parties.

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Speaker 2: It's not like that's a business transaction, right, It's literally

275
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Speaker 2: just a one way flow of money. Webster never recoups

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Speaker 2: any of this money in order to pay back his friend.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's an even bigger insult, isn't it.

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00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 1: That really creates a lot of issues between the two

279
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:09,079
Speaker 1: of them. And doctor Parkman is very philanthropic. He gives

280
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,680
Speaker 1: a lot of money to John Audubn and he donated

281
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,080
Speaker 1: an entire building the Massachusetts General Hospital. But with debt,

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Speaker 1: he's uncompromising. He's come to collect a debt. And this

283
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Speaker 1: is happening November twenty third of eighteen forty nine. And

284
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,920
Speaker 1: again when we come back to the background of doctor Webster,

285
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Speaker 1: he's married, his wife throws these lavish parties. He's making

286
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 1: a salary of one two hundred dollars a year, which

287
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,760
Speaker 1: is about forty five thousand dollars in today's money. And

288
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Speaker 1: he has a family fortune, but he's burned through it,

289
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,760
Speaker 1: so again he is feeling money pressure. Parkman is seen

290
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 1: walking into Webster's laboratory and then he doesn't leave. Oh,

291
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 1: we never see him come out of the laboratory, disappears.

292
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 1: So doctor Parkman is expected back to his home and

293
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,680
Speaker 1: he doesn't return, and this causes a panic.

294
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Speaker 4: This seems pretty quick to me.

295
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: He's supposed to have been back by that night, but

296
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 1: his son in law posts a three thousand dollars reward

297
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:15,560
Speaker 1: immediately looking for information about doctor Parkman's safe return. I think,

298
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,160
Speaker 1: and I was going to ask you, this seems pretty quick.

299
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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if Parkman suspected there would be problems to

300
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,840
Speaker 1: begin with. And that's where this came from, because when

301
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 1: I first read that fact, I thought, WHOA. I mean,

302
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,560
Speaker 1: you're not even going to wait to see if he

303
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,880
Speaker 1: shows up the next morning before posting a reward.

304
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is highly suspect.

305
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 2: And I would suspect that doctor Parkman had said, Hey,

306
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,600
Speaker 2: if I'm not back by this time, something bad has happened.

307
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 2: So that informs me a bit if that transaction with

308
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,360
Speaker 2: it was his son that posted.

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Speaker 4: The reward, right, son in law, son in law.

310
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Speaker 2: So with the son in law, if he's actually telling

311
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 2: the son in law, if I'm not back by a

312
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 2: certain time, something bad has happened. That informs me that

313
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Speaker 2: now he recognizing that there's a contentious relationship between him

314
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 2: and doctor Webster to a point where he's in fear

315
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,240
Speaker 2: for his own safety going over there asking for money.

316
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 2: There must have been some sort of interaction prior to

317
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: that night for him to think that.

318
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

319
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,760
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about it is is that Parkman goes,

320
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 1: he disappears, The son starts to post a reward three

321
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,360
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, which is a lot of money.

322
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Speaker 4: So he then gets a knock on the door.

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Speaker 1: He is at his mother in law's house, Missus Elizabeth.

324
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Speaker 1: Parkman answers the door and it's Professor Webster, and Professor

325
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 1: Webster says, I've heard that you all are alarmed about

326
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Speaker 1: doctor Parkman.

327
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Speaker 4: He did come to my lab.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to collect the four hundred and eighty four

329
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,280
Speaker 1: dollars that he was owed, which I'm thinking is around

330
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Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars. It's a big chunk of money in

331
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Speaker 1: that time period, and he said he came, I gave

332
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Speaker 1: him the money, and then he left and that was it.

333
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 2: Okay, So yeah, the typical if doctor Webster is the responsible,

334
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,439
Speaker 2: since there's no witnesses, he's able to now try to

335
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:11,400
Speaker 2: kind of convince others.

336
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we had this interaction.

337
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 2: Thereby, he's able to soothe people's suspicions about him. You know, yeah,

338
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 2: he came, but he's moved on. I gave him the money.

339
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 2: We were good, and he's moved on. And whatever happened

340
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,360
Speaker 2: to him happened after he left my.

341
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Speaker 1: Lab, right, And people believe him to a certain extent.

342
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Speaker 1: But when days pass, no one sees or hears from

343
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,199
Speaker 1: doctor Parkman, the wife says, you need to go to

344
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Speaker 1: professor Webster. So they show up at Professor Webster's lab

345
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 1: because that's the last known location. Of course, you know,

346
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: policing one oh one, go to the last known location. Nothing,

347
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 1: no blood, nothing nowhere, nothing disturbed.

348
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 2: Okay, And doctor Webster is a medical doctor. Let's I

349
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:51,879
Speaker 2: just want to clear for that.

350
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a chemistry professor who also works in medicine.

351
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Speaker 2: Both okay, is his lab something that would have these

352
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Speaker 2: bodies for the medical students.

353
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't think he would be doing dissecting necessarily in

354
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 1: the lab, but he could be working with bodies.

355
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Speaker 4: It could be many different kinds of experiments.

356
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,080
Speaker 2: So he's he's somebody that has, you know, maybe above

357
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 2: the average lay person's understanding of human anatomy and medical

358
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,480
Speaker 2: and maybe even surgical techniques. But his primary skill set,

359
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 2: his primary expertise is chemistry.

360
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:27,120
Speaker 4: Correct.

361
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So the police say, we don't have any proof

362
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,919
Speaker 1: that anything actually happened, and we don't really know what

363
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,639
Speaker 1: to do. We can't charge him with anything. There's nothing

364
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 1: to be done. So clearly Webster has done so far

365
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 1: a good job if he's responsible. If he's responsible, he

366
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,440
Speaker 1: isn't a good job covering his tracks so far.

367
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 2: At this point, we have a missing person's case yep,

368
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 2: and doctor Webster is admitting he's the last person to

369
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,359
Speaker 2: see doctor Parkman, the missing person.

370
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,119
Speaker 1: Alive yep, and said he left after that with his money,

371
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 1: a big chunk of money. So police leave and there

372
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: is very little to be done until something happens Partman,

373
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 1: his body pops up or he is spotted somewhere else.

374
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,439
Speaker 1: But we've also talked about before how incredibly easy it

375
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,439
Speaker 1: is in the eighteen hundreds to just leave hop on

376
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 1: a train and change your identity, no photographs, no IDs, nothing,

377
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 1: and just say you're somebody completely different. So he could

378
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,120
Speaker 1: have disappeared very easily and for whatever reason.

379
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 3: And he had enough cash on him.

380
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is solely a cash society, right, I.

381
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,040
Speaker 1: Would say, so, yeah, I mean there were certificates of

382
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 1: you know, bond certificates and stuff, but yeah, mostly cash,

383
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: I would say.

384
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 2: Right, it's not like there's a credit card trail that

385
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 2: can be followed now, right, so now, and he's got

386
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 2: a lot of cash on him that night. So if

387
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 2: he's decided I want to change my life, I'm going

388
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 2: to change my life, and he could easily have done that.

389
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 2: But then it comes down to is there any reason

390
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 2: for him to do that. Sounds like he's a highly

391
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 2: respected professor, he's well liked in the community. Nothing to

392
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 2: indicate that he's concerned about his own personal safety. You know,

393
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,919
Speaker 2: he's upset some organized crime outfit and now he has

394
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 2: to leave in order to preserve his life. Nothing about

395
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,439
Speaker 2: his victimology would suggest that. So the reality is is that, well,

396
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,640
Speaker 2: the likelihood that he's just deciding I'm going to change

397
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 2: my life and get out of here on the very

398
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,640
Speaker 2: night that he's going over to doctor Webster's to collect

399
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 2: his debt.

400
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 3: That doesn't wash with me.

401
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So interesting things start to happen within days of

402
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 1: this man's disappearance, and then the police leave Webster's lab

403
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 1: and conclude, well, he's not there. We're just gonna have

404
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,239
Speaker 1: to wait and see what happens. Letters start showing up

405
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 1: to the police, which always are interesting. A good letter

406
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,719
Speaker 1: sent by a supposed killer is a great way to

407
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 1: either help the police or throw them off.

408
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: What do you think about that, Well, it's it is

409
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 2: very very rare for the killer to actually be sending

410
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,679
Speaker 2: in letters to assist with the investigation. Sometimes you see,

411
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 2: you know, killers sending in letters for notoriety's sake, you know,

412
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 2: and I think you know, most notably Zodiac. There's an

413
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: ego aspect to that particular type of offender BTK BTK

414
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 2: again another egomaniac with Dennis Raider.

415
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,719
Speaker 3: But here what did these letters say?

416
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: So? One says, in a very scralled handwriting almost indecipherable,

417
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: you will find doctor Parkman murdered in a Brooklyn hotel

418
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: and Another one says doctor Parkman was took on board

419
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: with on board spould incorrectly the ship Herculean. And this

420
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 1: is all I dare say, or I shall be killed

421
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: with two more misspellings.

422
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 4: What is happening? What is somebody doing? Is this overthinking?

423
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 3: No?

424
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 2: No, Well, I think there's a fair amount to dissect

425
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,679
Speaker 2: within those letters. But first, what I would like to

426
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 2: know is how much public attention was this case receiving

427
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 2: a lot?

428
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 3: Okay, huge case.

429
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 2: Very high profile case, pre dating TV, predating radio. Basically

430
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: people find out about this case through what newspapers and

431
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 2: the town crier.

432
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 4: Town crier.

433
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 1: I don't know about the town crier, not quite. We're

434
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: still in the eighteen hundreds.

435
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 2: Sure, but news is going to back in the day

436
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: is obviously going to travel much slower than than what

437
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 2: it would today. Part of what has to be at

438
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: least considered is the nut jobs out there that have

439
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 2: nothing to do with the case. But what they will

440
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: do is they will send in letters. It's their way

441
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 2: of inserting themselves into the investigation. And these letters will

442
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 2: contain this type of information just because they want to feel,

443
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 2: you know, like they are part of the investigation. I

444
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: think in these letters. First, Brooklyn is mentioned. Brookland is

445
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: quite a distance away from Harvard. The second letter is

446
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: on a ship Hrculean, and where is this ship heading?

447
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: Again, it just says on board the ship Herculan, okay,

448
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: And this is all I dare say or shall be killed,

449
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,479
Speaker 1: So it doesn't even say just on the ocean.

450
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 2: We're assuming, right, So I'm assuming that that ship and

451
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 2: investigators would be able to figure out. I would imagine

452
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: even in eighteen forty nine where that ship was at

453
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 2: port and where it was headed to. But that is

454
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 2: probably headed to a location that is quite a distance away. Also,

455
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 2: you have two letters that are basically saying doctor Parkman

456
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 2: is his body is a long ways away. So there

457
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 2: is a consistency in terms of the geographic information within

458
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: those letters. Now, the misspellings, the grammar within these two

459
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: letters sounds like is pretty consistent somebody who is not

460
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 2: well educated, and both letters are like that.

461
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: The first one you will find doctor Partman murdered in

462
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: a Brooklyn.

463
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 4: Hotel, is written normally okay.

464
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: The second one is where the misspellings and the grammatical

465
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: erarors are.

466
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 4: And then I'm going to throw one more thing at you.

467
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: Sure, there's a third one that says police need to

468
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: search the sellers in East Cambridge no misspellings. So that's

469
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: right there in the epicenter of all of this. So

470
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: then the question is does this come from three different people?

471
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: Is it all the same person? Regardless? None of it's right. Yeah,

472
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: none of it leads to doctor Parkman. None of it's right.

473
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: Well, and I think I.

474
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: Want to address, you know, the one with the grammar

475
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 2: problems that the misspellings is. You know, when you have somebody,

476
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: let's say, a suspect who is well educated, this is

477
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 2: a type of staging. If doctor Webster is trying to

478
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: misdirect the investigation, he's not going to send a letter

479
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 2: in that is going to be on Harvard letterhead and

480
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: written with somebody who is a very well educated person.

481
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: He's going to want law enforcement to be looking at

482
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: somebody that is opposite from him. And that's what stands

483
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: out to me given the circumstances of this case.

484
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: Now it's entirely possible.

485
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: This is just a nut job sending a letter in

486
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: has no knowledge of the case and truly doesn't have

487
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 2: the education in order to set something in properly. But

488
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: under these circumstances, I start to go, I wonder, I,

489
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: at least with that one letter, if that's doctor Webster

490
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: trying to throw the investigation off.

491
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: Well, the investigation's about to be thrown really far off,

492
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: because these three letters printed in the newspapers, you can imagine,

493
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: are sort of supercharging everything.

494
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: All of the rumor mills.

495
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: And to answer your question about the town criers in

496
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, many times there were little boys standing

497
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: on the corner hawking these newspapers, and they scream out

498
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: the headlines of the newspapers to try to get attention.

499
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: So you were partially right there. So this again was

500
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: a big case. It was a mystery to affluent people.

501
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: One might have been responsible, except much of the community

502
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: could not believe that a medical professional, chemistry professor like

503
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: John White Webster would be responsible for whatever happened to

504
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: doctor Parkman. So people start pointing the finger at someone

505
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: really interesting named Ephram Littlefield.

506
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 4: I love Ephraim. It's a great name.

507
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: Ephram has popped up in so many of my books

508
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: and in my stories. It's a very old school name.

509
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: If I ever had a boy, I'd go with Ephram.

510
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: I think Efhram Littlefield was a janitor at Harvard Medical School.

511
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 4: He was someone who.

512
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: Did the grunt work that no one else wanted to do,

513
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: including buying the cadavers from the grave robbers, and would

514
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: give them to his bosses, who would have been the

515
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: anatomy professors. So he already had sort of a sketch

516
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: she shady reputation just for what he did for a living,

517
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: even though it sounded like he was making an honest living.

518
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: Still he was doing some technically illegal things in eighteen

519
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: forty nine Massachusetts.

520
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 3: That is interesting.

521
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: So Littlefield now has a resource. So if foul play

522
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: has fallen on doctor Parkman, which sounds like in all

523
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: likelihood it has, and doctor Parkman has lost his life,

524
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 2: Littlefield is dealing with grave robbers. Could you imagine where

525
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: now you have a reverse transaction. Instead of Littlefield saying okay,

526
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: I need bodies that you have dug up, now, it's

527
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: I have a body that you need to bury.

528
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 3: Now.

529
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: Doctor Parkman's body could be in a grave of somebody

530
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: that they dug up previously. Right, yep, so's he's in

531
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: a misidentified grave.

532
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: I think that is a great train of thought to

533
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: go down because I also then wonder would someone like

534
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: Littlefield a janitor, would he have been responsible for one

535
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: of these letters, particularly maybe the one with grammatical issues,

536
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: or as you said before, statistically, it's unlikely that anybody

537
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: who was connected with any murder is really going to

538
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: write in These are just people trying to insert themselves.

539
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: Well, and with Littlefield, his connections to this underbelly of society,

540
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: if you will, with the grave robbers, is of course

541
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: very interesting, but fundamentally there has to be a reason

542
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: for him to commit the homicide on doctor Parkman to

543
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: begin with. What would his motive be not to go

544
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: down just a rabbit hole that we would never be

545
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: able to prove today. Do you have a janitor who's

546
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: let's say, a predator who prefers male victims, and it

547
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: just so happens doctor Parkman going to doctor Webster's lab

548
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: late at night, has isolated himself, and Littlefield has decided

549
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to take advantage of having this loan man

550
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: to do what I want to do, and I.

551
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: Can get rid of the body.

552
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: There's always that possibility, But the circumstances of this case,

553
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,239
Speaker 2: with doctor Parkman going to collect debt from Webster and

554
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: we know that that is often a common motive for homicide.

555
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: That really, still, I think, is where my focus is

556
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: going to be. I just kind of wonder does doctor

557
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: Webster have a relationship with the janitor Littlefield?

558
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 4: He really doesn't.

559
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: This is a janitor who is of course he buys

560
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: the cadavers from the grave robbers, but he's around during

561
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: the cleanup. I don't even know if they had interacted.

562
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: They didn't seem to have a relationship. But here's what's

563
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: key to the police. Littlefield had access to every part

564
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: of Harvard Medical School that Webster did. So if we're

565
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: looking at access who had once we start talking about

566
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: where Parkman ultimately ends up, who has that access, they

567
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: both have the same access. They both have keys. As

568
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: a janitor, he had a key to every room. He

569
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: had access to the laboratory. You're talking about if we're

570
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: going to go and play Devil's advocate, right, So you've

571
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: got one man who is struggling financially and is now

572
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: having to pay a debt, but we don't know if

573
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: he had the money to pay that debt. And then

574
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: you've got the janitor who might have, as you said,

575
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: looked at four hundred and eighty four dollars, who makes

576
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: no money and is then able.

577
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 4: To rob or kill or do whatever.

578
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be surprised who it is at

579
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: this point because I could see money as being a

580
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: motive for both of them, and they both had equal access.

581
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: So a theory, let's say two theories right now, without

582
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: getting into the really more exotic is doctor Parkman goes

583
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: to collect debt from doctor Webster. Webster kills Parkman and

584
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: gets rid of his body. Second theory, Parkman goes to Webster,

585
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: collects his debt and then leaves We's lab. And now

586
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: Littlefield kills him, takes the money, and disposes of Parkman's body.

587
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 4: In some way.

588
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: Yep, Okay, so those are our two choices. So this

589
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: is where things become a little sticky. Littlefield is alarmed,

590
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: as I would be too, that people are saying that

591
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: he might be involved some way in this, because people

592
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: don't believe that Professor Webster would have done this. He

593
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: starts his own investigation, which never seems like a good

594
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: idea to me, but you know, if you feel like

595
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: you have no choice and he truly is innocent, he

596
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: starts making his own observations. I'm predicting you're gonna say

597
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: this is dangerous or do you think it's a great

598
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: idea if you're truly innocent to conduct your own observation

599
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: surveillance of the person you really suspect of committing the crime.

600
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: If police don't believe you, what else are you gonna do? Paul,

601
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: I mean he can't afford an attorney. People are saying

602
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: he did it?

603
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I of course to anybody listening, as

604
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: I always would say, rely upon law enforcement or pfessional

605
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: private investigators to conduct that type of work. But quite frankly,

606
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: if I were to be found in this situation, I probably.

607
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 3: Would be doing it myself as well. Who do I

608
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 3: trust more than me?

609
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: It will confuse the issues, especially if you observe something

610
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: that helps exonerate your situation and incriminates let's say, doctor Webster.

611
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: Yet, oh of course, people are going, well, of course.

612
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: You know, you could just be making this up to

613
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: try to get out of being suspected of this crime.

614
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: But I don't blame Littlefield for at least taking this on.

615
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: But it most certainly would cause the investigators to go, hmm,

616
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: how much do we trust any information he has found?

617
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 4: Well? He finds a lot of information.

618
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: Littlefield noticed that the doors to the boiler room in

619
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: Webster's laboratory, which had always been unlocked, were suddenly bolted,

620
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: and that the professor turned the boiler on and it

621
00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: was blasting from the furnace so hot that when you

622
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: touched it, the walls were hot. So it sounds like

623
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: he's insinuating that Webster was burning Parkman's body inside there.

624
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 4: But I don't know how boilers work. Is that even feasible?

625
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: Oh well, I think it depends on the size and

626
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: the construction of the boiler, because obviously, just by the

627
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: term boiler, this is a device that is designed to

628
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: heat up water. And so there's going to be a

629
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: heat source, and then there's going to be a container

630
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: for the water. And then the question is does the

631
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: design permit objects to be placed directly into the heat source,

632
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: let's say, into a fire, like a crematorium type of scenario,

633
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: or does the device permit a body to be placed

634
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 2: in the water and then you have a boiling or

635
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: you know, very hot water that is working on the body.

636
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: I have no knowledge of boilers, but it sounds I mean,

637
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: it's obviously suspicious, and it sounds like there is a

638
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 2: possibility that Webster was trying to get rid of some evidence,

639
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: whether it be the body or items off the body.

640
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think the idea was from Littlefield was

641
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: that he suspected that Webster had dismembered the body and

642
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: was slowly trying to rid himself of all the separate pieces.

643
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: And the furnace would have been big enough to fit

644
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: some body parts inside with exposure to the fire to

645
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: have destroyed. It was a big room, big enough for

646
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: somebody to be inside of it.

647
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: Now, burning a body to a point where it's no

648
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: longer there's nothing left is not an easy thing.

649
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 3: You know.

650
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: Crematoriums operate at extraordinarily high temperatures, probably much higher temperatures

651
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: than I would imagine that a boiler would operate at.

652
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: Now.

653
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: Of course soft tissue is going to be burned up,

654
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: but to get rid of the long bones, the teeth,

655
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 2: et cetera. I would be doubtful that this boiler would

656
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: do that. There would still be remnants that doctor Webster

657
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: would have to address after this act.

658
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 4: There's definitely a lot more evidence.

659
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: So the incident with the furnace and the hot walls

660
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: really alarm little Field, he says, and he wants to

661
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: start gathering more evidence. He continues to secretly watch Professor Webster,

662
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: and he sees doctor Webster's leaving campus with a bundle.

663
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: At one point.

664
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: He also heard some water running in the lab the

665
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 1: night that Parkman disappeared, which he thought was unusual because

666
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: it just doesn't happen very often. I suppose I don't

667
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: know what the plumbing was like then, but it's not

668
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: as simple as flushing a toilet. Obviously he had there

669
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: was an effort to get water into the lab.

670
00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 4: This would have been unusual.

671
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: Well, the bundle, I think is really interesting because you're

672
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: going to ask how big of a bundle, I would

673
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: say the bundle is. I think it's a couple of

674
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: handfuls of something. I don't think this is a huge

675
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: sack thrown over his back. I think this is something

676
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: where some items can be put inside of it. But

677
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: he thought he was being that Webster was being sneaky,

678
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: and this was alarming to Littlefield.

679
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 4: He said, now is.

680
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: He making these statements during the initial interview, because some

681
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: of these statements are he's observing the night of yeah,

682
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: doctor Parkman going missing. But then he comes under suspicion,

683
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of curious as to what he's making

684
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: these statements.

685
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: The order of things was, Parkman goes missing, the reward

686
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: comes out. Webster goes to the wife and the sun

687
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: in law and say, I gave him the money and

688
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: he took off.

689
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 4: I don't know where he was.

690
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: He is a few days later under suspicion and the

691
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: police go to him search the lab. Nothing comes up

692
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: from Webster's lab. They then pretty quickly turn their attention

693
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: to the janitor little Field. So I think that Littlefield

694
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: initially said, you know, listen, I have no idea what

695
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: happened to this guy, and then he started his own investigation.

696
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if he reported the bundle that night,

697
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: seeing Professor Webster leaving the medical college that night with

698
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: a bundle. But this is all an ongoing investigation, after

699
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: he's been accused already, and after the police have sort

700
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: of written off Webster as a significant suspect just because

701
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: there's no body, no.

702
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: Proof, Okay, And when does little Field say that the

703
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: further slash boiler room has been bolted and locked. This

704
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: is after he puts Webster under surveillance by himself.

705
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and this is under surveillance, and this is

706
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: within days. I think it is likely after the police

707
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: have exited, And I have no idea if the body

708
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: is there where Webster would have kept the body in

709
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: the meantime. But as you said, there probably cadavers everywhere,

710
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: maybe not specifically in his lab, but as a chemistry professor,

711
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: he absolutely could have worked on cadavers.

712
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 4: But there's no mention of body parts everywhere.

713
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: It just would not have been difficult to conceal a

714
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: body in a medical school at this point.

715
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would question the thoroughness of these investigators

716
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 2: eighteen forty nine in terms of doing a really good,

717
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: exhaustive crime scene search for doctor Parkman, his body, his

718
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 2: body parts, or his personal effects.

719
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: And this is where the investigation gets kind of gross.

720
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: So if any of you are listening and eating anything,

721
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: I would probably pause for a second. One of the

722
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: things that Littlefield suspects happens with the water running. He

723
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: thinks that Webster might have disposed of some of the

724
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 1: body parts by shoving them down the toilet area.

725
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 4: The privy is what they would have called it.

726
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: So he goes in and he he knows investigators have

727
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: not gone in and done this. So Littlefield asks his

728
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: wife to come and stand card and he sits on

729
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: the ground in the small bathroom the privy in Webster's lab,

730
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: after Webster has gone home for the night, and he

731
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: takes a chisel and he starts chiseling into the stone

732
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: wall underneath the bathroom. And he knows the police hasn't

733
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: searched this area. It's a lot of persistence and apparently

734
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: would take a strong stomach assuming. So he's literally sitting

735
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: in human waste as he's chipping away at this wall

736
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: where the bottom of the privy is, and he's taking

737
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: a break, and the nighttime rolls in, and the next

738
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: day he chisels straight through and in the darkness he

739
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: sees human remains a pelvis, a thigh, and part of

740
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: a leg. Oh, somebody has been dismembered and is underneath

741
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: part of Harvard Medical School.

742
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to visualize this plumbing. When you say

743
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 2: the privy, that's basically that's a toilet, right, And then

744
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: is this like you know you have your outhouses where

745
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: the toilet basically is open to a large just repository

746
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: of humid waste, right.

747
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Okay, so he went down and sat in

748
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: that waste to get through a wall where he believed

749
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: some of the body parts where he finds it. To

750
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: answer your question, I don't think that there is an

751
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: entrance to get to where the waste is stored except

752
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: by going through the floor of where the toilet would be. Like,

753
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: there's no cleanup. It just builds up and up and decomposes.

754
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: That's my understanding.

755
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, at least you know of course,

756
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: I really just want to visualize this just to be informed.

757
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: But the bottom line is, as we have partial human

758
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: remains ye found in a location.

759
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 3: That doctor Webster would have access to.

760
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 4: And little Field obviously.

761
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: And Littlefield, but we're also in a medical school environment

762
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 2: in which there's many other human remains.

763
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 3: From the cadavers.

764
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 2: And is it possible that these human remains could be

765
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: just discarded cadaver parts.

766
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: Yep, could be absolutely Okay, that's what makes this crime

767
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: scene so interesting.

768
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: Yes, And now the question that I would have is

769
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: did they make any attempts to identify these human remains

770
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: as being, you know, something that had been deposited recently?

771
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: Could they do anything to indicate this is you know,

772
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 2: from doctor Parkman versus from whether it be a male

773
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: body that is either much larger or much smaller in

774
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: statue or age based on anthropological measurements and assessments different gender,

775
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 2: et cetera. So you know, of course, I've got so

776
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: many questions about these human remains at this point, and.

777
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: I'll get to those, because yes, if we believe Parkman's wife,

778
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: yes there are ways to identify him.

779
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,959
Speaker 4: So Littlefield clearly freaks out.

780
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 3: Well, that was a tease, old.

781
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying to think, like you, questioning people's

782
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: worth certificates and DNA and blood type and everything.

783
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think. I mean, you know, people lie,

784
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 4: you never know it.

785
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: So you're right. All we know is we have some

786
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 1: body parts and a missing man. But we also are

787
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: in a medical school with body parts all over the place,

788
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: so it could have been just a lazy medical student

789
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: disposing incorrectly of some body parts.

790
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 4: So he calls the police.

791
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: Webster is arrested immediately because it's his lab and he's

792
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: charged with the murder of Parkman, even though there's no body. Okay,

793
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: we don't know definitively yet, So upon this discovery, the

794
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: police go, okay, let's go ahead and look at the lab.

795
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: They do a more thorough search. They look in the furnace,

796
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: which was the incredibly hot furnace that Webster was burning

797
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: that night or a couple of nights later. They look

798
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: inside and they find buttons and coins inside. Odd stuff

799
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: to be found in a furnace of a perfectly innocent man.

800
00:42:58,960 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 4: Buttons and coins.

801
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: I don't know if they could identify if they were

802
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: Parkman's buttons and coins, but it's still.

803
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: Weird, especially in a device that is not intended to

804
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: have buttons and coins inside of it. You know, this

805
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: is something that is intended to service the facility. I

806
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 2: actually have a case in which I had two women

807
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: victims six months apart, whose clothing had been removed from them,

808
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: and then the offender had burned their clothing in his

809
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: fireplace at his house. So I collected the ashes out

810
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 2: of the fireplace, and that ended up having to go

811
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: through those ashes. And with modern women's clothing, it's stunning

812
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 2: the amount of metal that is contained within that which

813
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: helps identify. Okay, I've got underwire to brass here, I've

814
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 2: got buttons from jeans, I've got steel shanks from high

815
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: heel shoes, et cetera. I'm wondering back in this era,

816
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: with the type of clothing let's say that doctor Parkman

817
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: would have on besides button, would there have been any

818
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: other recognizable components that would have survived the fire besides

819
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: the coinage.

820
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: Yes, oh, I nailed it.

821
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: Then human bone fragments, including a finger, a shin, a jawbone,

822
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: and fake teeth are also found inside the furnace. Okay,

823
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: so not hot enough, I guess. Huh No, I know,

824
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: teeth teeth, you're not going to burn, but the jawbone

825
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: would have burned. Right.

826
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 2: This is where you know, the experience that I have,

827
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 2: of course, is dealing with cremaines, and even with a crematorium,

828
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: the operator who's disposing of the bodies at a certain

829
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 2: point has to come through and do further crushing, if

830
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: you will, of some of the remnants, the bone remnants,

831
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: the teeth that still have not incinerated at that super

832
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: super high level.

833
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 3: So I would.

834
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: Imagine that in this boiler furnace that it doesn't reach

835
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 2: those temperatures, and there would be significant larger bone masses

836
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 2: and teeth that would survive that level of fire.

837
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about these teeth they find other body

838
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 1: parts in addition to the teeth and the jawbone that

839
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: have a chemical and alkali chemical poured on them that

840
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 1: Webster would have used in his lab. On top of that,

841
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 1: some of these body parts which had not been destroyed yet,

842
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: there were specific markings that Missus Parkman said were probably

843
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: scars that her husband had that she recognized if you

844
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: believe her. But also his dentist said that doctor Parkman

845
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: had teeth problems. He had some false teeth that had

846
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: a distinctive quality to him, had been filed down during

847
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: their fitting, and there were some false teeth found with

848
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: those file marks on them, And the dentist had made

849
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: a mold of Parkman's teeth and it fit.

850
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 4: This all fit all the stuff found in the furnace fit.

851
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

852
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 2: Well, obviously I think the teeth and the false teeth

853
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: in the fire that the strongest evidence that this is

854
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 2: doctor Parkman. It at least gives me confidence that a

855
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 2: reference standard from the dentist's office is mold is matching

856
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: the false teeth that were found in this fire. The

857
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: fact that soft tissue was still present that showed scars

858
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 2: that the wife was able to recognize. I don't put

859
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 2: a lot of weight on her recognition outside of you know,

860
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 2: it's like a witness statement. You evaluate the veracity of it.

861
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: But this furnace boiler did not do what doctor Webster

862
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: intended it or maybe Littlefield. I mean, I don't think

863
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: you can eliminate little Field because he also had access

864
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: to this room, right he did. Okay, but it's not

865
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 2: destroying doctor Parkman's body.

866
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: Now you mentioned alkali.

867
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 1: Yes, so what happened was they found a chort This

868
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: is pretty gross actually, so hold on, let me get

869
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: it right. After searching a small wooden tea chest, police

870
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: find the upper portion of a human's left thigh and

871
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: a gutted single torso of a.

872
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 4: Very hairy man.

873
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: And the remains were dalls with quote strong alkali chemicals.

874
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is becoming very obvious. Kind of what I

875
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 2: was trying to get an understanding of a fender's skill

876
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 2: set with doctor Webster and that he's a professor of chemistry.

877
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 2: He possibly has some medical knowledge, but most certainly his

878
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: expertise is chemical, and here you have a chemical being

879
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: applied to a body that has been dismembered. He's utilizing

880
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: his skill set. This is where now if I'm trying

881
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: to differentiate between Littlefield and Webster as the primary person

882
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: unless there was something in Littlefield's background that would suggest

883
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: that he possibly had the access to the chemicals. But

884
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 2: did he understand how this very strong base, this alkali solution,

885
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: how that would dissolve human tissue. Believe it or not,

886
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: strong bases are much more effective at dissolving tissue than assets.

887
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: And so that is something that tends to suggest to

888
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 2: me that the person who is utilizing a strong alkali

889
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: has some knowledge that it's going to be effective.

890
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 4: But it wasn't effective. That's the thing. It didn't dissolve.

891
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: Whoever used that chemical didn't do it correctly or didn't

892
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: leave it long enough. Whoever killed this man and attempted

893
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: to cover it up did a terrible job. Because there's

894
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 1: body parts everywhere, There's evidence in the furnace, there's stuff

895
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: in the privy. So I lean honestly towards Littlefield at

896
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: this point.

897
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 4: I do. I do, because he had all of the access.

898
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 4: This seems weird and botched to me. But what do

899
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 4: you think you're the expert.

900
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: This is where again it comes down to you can

901
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: have a very intelligent offender, but they have no experience.

902
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, killing or they're panicking.

903
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 3: Well, there of course.

904
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: Is going to be the external dynamics that could cause

905
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: them not to be able to put as much attention

906
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: or as much resources on the disposal process as in

907
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: this case.

908
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 3: But just because let's.

909
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 2: Say doctor Webster is this Harvard professor of chemistry, doesn't

910
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 2: mean he has expertise in human body disposal.

911
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 3: Yep. Let's say he committed.

912
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: Another crime and he saw the failings of disposing a

913
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: Parkman's body. Then I bet the next time around he

914
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 2: would be much better because he has the intellect to learn.

915
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 2: He has a sophistication to apply what he has learned

916
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 2: from prior experience. For me, what I am seeing right

917
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: now is motive. Doctor Webster owes a debt. He doesn't

918
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 2: have the money to pay the debt. Parkman is coming

919
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: to see doctor Webster to collect that debt. Doctor Webster

920
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 2: has the chemical expertise in order to go Okay, I'm

921
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: gonna choose because I imagine as a professor of chemistry,

922
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: he has many chemicals within his lab. So littlefield not

923
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: a chemistry is going to be looking at all of

924
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: this stuff that's probably written with chemical formulas, or formal

925
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: chemical names. He's going to go, well, which one do

926
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: I use? The dismemberment of the body. Now both you

927
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: know little Field dealing with cadavers. You know, maybe he

928
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 2: has some knowledge, and we've talked in previous episodes that

929
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: many people just because of their personal experiences, are able

930
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: to dismember a body. But right now, everything from what

931
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 2: I am seeing, I still lean.

932
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 3: Towards Doctor Webster.

933
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: I want it, at this point eliminate Little Field, and

934
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: I'm not eliminating that they maybe even well, maybe I

935
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 2: can eliminate it. Hold on, because they're pointing fingers at

936
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: each other in essence, I would imagine At this.

937
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: Point Webster says, I have no idea. He says, I

938
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: wasn't there.

939
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 4: That was it. He left, That was it.

940
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with this, and somebody else

941
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: who had access to my stuff did it. Okay, this

942
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: is a circumstantial case because there's not one key.

943
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 4: There were other people who could have done this.

944
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: Sure, but right now, just because of motive of opportunity, yeah,

945
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 2: some of the things I'm seeing with a body disposal,

946
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 2: I do lean to doctor Webster at this point with

947
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 2: the information provided.

948
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: So Webster goes on trial, he says, I didn't do it.

949
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: He has found guilty, even though the judge admitted it

950
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: was a circumstantial case. Essentially, the judge said, I mean

951
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: everything is a circumstantial case. If we let everybody go

952
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: when we don't have a smoking gun, then we won't

953
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: have anybody in our jails whatsoever, which I think is

954
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 1: a fair statement.

955
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 4: But there were other suspects.

956
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: You have this enthusiastic janitor who's doing his own investigation

957
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: because he feels like he's been under fire.

958
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 2: So he is found guilty. Okay, so Webster's found guilty.

959
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: We have at least within the furnace boiler area as

960
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 2: well as in some other locations that doctor Webster had

961
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 2: access to parts of Parkman's body. But Littlefield also found

962
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 2: body parts underneath the privy in.

963
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 4: The tunnel underneath the privy.

964
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 2: Yep, were those body parts determined to be from doctor Parkman.

965
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: We don't know the wife identified. I think the torso

966
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: there were a couple of things in the lab, actually

967
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: in the lab, so those parts might not have had.

968
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 4: Anything to do. Yeah, we don't know. I mean there's

969
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 4: body parts everywhere in that college.

970
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: Because one of the things that I was wanting to

971
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 2: assess is with Littlefield. He took the effort to find

972
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 2: these body parts and offer them up to investigators if

973
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: he were responsible for the crime, and he knew the

974
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 2: investor's no way the investigators would ever search this location.

975
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,240
Speaker 2: Why would he take the effort to offer up something

976
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 2: that could be further used to incriminate himself.

977
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 1: Maybe he's not smart enough to know that other people

978
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: could have deposited body parts.

979
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 4: I mean, who knows.

980
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: Why did he think they were down there? Why did

981
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: he even suspect that. I think it's the water running,

982
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: is what he thought. But I thought that was an

983
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: odd fact that he would just automatically think something would

984
00:52:58,560 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 1: have been down the privy.

985
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: These other body parts, though, that are from Parkman, are

986
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: easier to find they were, Yeah, you know, So for

987
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 2: him to make that effort, I mean that's where I'm

988
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 2: I'm really thinking that as circumstantial of a case it

989
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 2: is against Webster, the actions of little Field tend to

990
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 2: support that he really did get into I have to

991
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 2: protect myself. I had nothing to do with this, and

992
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: he's sitting in a room full of human waste in

993
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: order to go after his suspicions. Because what is his expertise.

994
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: His expertise as a janitor is going to be cleanup,

995
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: the cleanup and everything else. That's what he's focusing in on.

996
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 2: So right now, I think they're right. I think Webster

997
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 2: is the one that's responsible.

998
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 4: So I think probably you're right.

999
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: After he was executed in eighteen fifty, there came out,

1000
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: supposedly a confession that he had given. We don't know

1001
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 1: if this is one hundred percent correct. This was a

1002
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: rumored confession from a letter that was released to a

1003
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: newspaper paper, saying that Webster said that while doctor Parkman

1004
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: was speaking and gesturing in the most violent and menacing manner,

1005
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: I seized whatever was nearest to me, a stick of wood,

1006
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 1: and dealt him a blow with all the force that

1007
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: passion could summon. I do not know, nor think, nor

1008
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 1: care where I should hit him, not how hard, nor

1009
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: what the effect should be.

1010
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,959
Speaker 4: So he was pissed. This was, you know, an act

1011
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 4: of passion.

1012
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like he's saying, not premeditated, is what it

1013
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,399
Speaker 1: sounds like. Sure, but if this is true, we don't

1014
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: even know if this is a real confession.

1015
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but couldn't he just say I hit him Ethan

1016
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 2: hard all right, right versus now what's going on? Back

1017
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 2: in eighteen forty nine, they couldn't just say, yeah, I

1018
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:42,479
Speaker 2: hit the guy.

1019
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 4: You're gonna be so used to it by the end

1020
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 4: of this season. You're gonna be so used to it.

1021
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 4: When do you read the handwriting? I'm gonna send you

1022
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 4: some handwriting.

1023
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: Couldn't you see a hardened Bronxe homicide investigator taking a

1024
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 2: confession like that and going.

1025
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: What, well, that seems like a reasonable explanation. They got

1026
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: into a fight, he had him with a piece of

1027
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: wood and then dismembered him.

1028
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 4: Boy, that's something else, you know.

1029
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 2: I think dismembering a body is an occasional method that

1030
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 2: offenders utilize in order to dispose of the body. You know,

1031
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,280
Speaker 2: it takes a special person to take that step. And

1032
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: doctor Webster, with his academic background, the location at the

1033
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 2: Harvard Medical Facility, I think that he's somebody that would

1034
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: have the intestinal fortitude in order to be able to

1035
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 2: take that on. Obviously, Littlefield could have done it himself.

1036
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: He's dealing with dead bodies, he's buying dead bodies. But

1037
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,399
Speaker 2: I'm pretty much in the Webster camp on this.

1038
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: Okay, So he has hanged. His family is destitute. But

1039
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 1: Webster's family was so respected that people like a Citizen's

1040
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: Coalition gathered money kind of crowdsourced money, and eventually raised

1041
00:55:58,080 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars, which is an.

1042
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 4: Incredible for eighteen fifty.

1043
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: The first person to donate was George Parkman's widow. That's

1044
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: not blaming the family at all, feeling very sorry for

1045
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: everybody in this story.

1046
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 3: Oh so this is actually to help Webster's family. Yep.

1047
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, a fun twenty thousand dollars fund to help

1048
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 1: his wife and his kids because now they don't have him.

1049
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1050
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,879
Speaker 2: Well, and that is something you know, like Sacramento Da

1051
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: n Marie Schubert, who's a good friend of mine and

1052
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 2: was on the Golden State killer case, we've talked about this.

1053
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 3: You know a lot of people.

1054
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 2: It's the collateral damage that happens when you have somebody

1055
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 2: who commits a crime like this. And we saw it

1056
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: firsthand with the Angelo's family, and that many people were

1057
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: I mean, his poor daughters, you know, they were receiving

1058
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 2: death threats and they had nothing to do with his crimes.

1059
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 2: And here Webster kills Parkman, and I think it speaks

1060
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 2: volumes that his widow, you know, recognizes his family had

1061
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 2: nothing to do with this. Yeah, and they had the

1062
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,240
Speaker 2: financial resources to help his family out. That really shows

1063
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 2: a level of compassion on her part.

1064
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 4: I agree.

1065
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: And one mysterious note to end on, because you know

1066
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: I like to end on mysterious notes. What happens to E.

1067
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: Fhraim Littlefield. He receives the reward from the son in

1068
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: law three thousand dollars, which is one hundred and twenty

1069
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty thousand dollars. Now he leaves the school,

1070
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: retires and has made triple the amount of money as

1071
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 1: John Webster would have made, and goes on and lives

1072
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: in comfort based on this very crude investigation. So you

1073
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: either look at this as this man is generously rewarded

1074
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: for a vindication of the murder of a person who

1075
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: just came to collect a debt, or someone who really benefited,

1076
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: maybe in a couple of ways, from the death of

1077
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: this person.

1078
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd hate to see Littlefield be the actual killer

1079
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 2: and actually profit and live a comfortable life afterwards.

1080
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 4: Words, but it happens.

1081
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 3: It happens.

1082
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 2: I think Littlefield, through his efforts, probably to clear his

1083
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 2: own name, help the investigation and rightfully earned that reward.

1084
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: And with that, I will remind you again of what

1085
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: a wonderful place New England is and you should go

1086
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: visit because we have a lot of stories like this.

1087
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: New England is my favorite place to go for creepy,

1088
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 1: weird stories that have a real life lesson.

1089
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 4: Now.

1090
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what was in the water in New England

1091
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: back in the mid eighteen hundreds.

1092
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: Well, that mercury is cholera I think was in the water.

1093
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what was in there. Bad things that

1094
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: made people do really really bad things. The creativity that

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00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: people had to go through sometimes disposing of a body

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00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: then versus now, And what thwarted people then that wouldn't now,

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00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: and what would catch people now that would have never then.

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00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 2: It really stands out where the limitations that the authorities

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00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: had through their investigative processes, the technology, it just wasn't there,

1100
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 2: you know. And so you have a lot of these

1101
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 2: cases that are being solved and people being prosecuted and

1102
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 2: executed based on circumstantial evidence and circumstantial evidence alone, and

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00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: even to this day there's many cases that are made

1104
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 2: just uncircumstantial aspects. I know, I get hinked up about that,

1105
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: just because working big who done it cases that if

1106
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 2: I cast a large enough net, I can find individuals

1107
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 2: that have circumstances that make them suspicious, and you get

1108
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 2: a good attorney arguing in front of twelve jurors, they

1109
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 2: can convince twelve jurors these circumstances prove beyond a reasonable

1110
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 2: doubt that this person's responsible, And I go ooh, I'm

1111
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 2: not comfortable with that. I of course come out of

1112
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: the physical evidence world unless the case is so obvious.

1113
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 2: I really get more comfort having modern technology and physical

1114
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 2: evidence help piece the puzzle together.

1115
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: So to speak, well, I have some news for you, Paul.

1116
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: None of our cases par simple and easy, none of them.

1117
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: Otherwise this will.

1118
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 4: Be a five minute podcast.

1119
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 3: You're always going to keep me in that uncomfortable zone.

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01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:27,959
Speaker 3: Then right, yep.

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01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,439
Speaker 1: So we will actually be taking a week off next week,

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01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: but we will be back the following week with a

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01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: brand new episode, So Paul, I will see you there.

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01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 3: All right? Sounds good looking forward to it.

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01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

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01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

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01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

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01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 4: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

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01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1130
01:00:58,080 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 4: Our mixing engineer is Ryo.

1131
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1132
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 4: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1134
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1135
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1136
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1137
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1138
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1139
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

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01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now