1
00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,240
Speaker 1: Body dynas, but Joseph's gotten more. It's an interesting thing,

2
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: the human skeleton. Did you know that every stage of

3
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,439
Speaker 1: life that we go through is kind of marked by

4
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,160
Speaker 1: our physical support system, if you will, our anatomical support system,

5
00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 1: our framework, that framework that our organs rest within and

6
00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:37,680
Speaker 1: that our skin stretches over. It marks time for us.

7
00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:44,240
Speaker 1: It is a It gives off developmental signals. It talks

8
00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,479
Speaker 1: about disease, and I say talk as if you can

9
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,240
Speaker 1: have a conversation with it. But if you read it right,

10
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: you can learn a lot about people through their skeletons.

11
00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,440
Speaker 1: And in my world, in the world of metal legal

12
00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 1: death investigation, sometimes skeletal remains are all that we have

13
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: to tell the tale. I'm Josephcotten Morgan and this is

14
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 1: body Bags, Brother Dave. I've been excited about doing this

15
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,960
Speaker 1: episode with you because I got to make a confession

16
00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,759
Speaker 1: right here, right now and tell you this dirty, dark

17
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:37,000
Speaker 1: little secret about myself. I am, at my heart, a

18
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:46,280
Speaker 1: amateur frustrated forensic anthropologists. I've always worked with forensic anthropologists.

19
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,400
Speaker 1: I've been in their worlds, I've been in their labs,

20
00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 1: I've been in the field with them, slapping mosquitoes and

21
00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:00,600
Speaker 1: fending off snakes. Yes, been in swampy walk, I've been

22
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 1: in a rugged terrain. But I have always been enamored

23
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,760
Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologists, and every opportunity that I have, I've

24
00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,840
Speaker 1: always welcomed that moment when I can kind of sit

25
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 1: at their feet and learn because they're fascinating individuals. They're

26
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:25,760
Speaker 1: fascinating because they have to take very very little and

27
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 1: tell a story with it. It's not like a forensic

28
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,080
Speaker 1: pathologist where you still have soft tissue, you've got evidence

29
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 1: of trauma in the immediate with focal areas of hemorrhage

30
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 1: and all that stuff that we talked about on bodybags. No, no, no,

31
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 1: that's not what forensic anthropologists do. They have to frame

32
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 1: everything out in very broad sense, and sometimes they can

33
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,800
Speaker 1: come up with detailed information, but it's just it's the

34
00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 1: way they go about it. The tools that they have

35
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,360
Speaker 1: to utilize. And I'm not talking about stuff that they

36
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,080
Speaker 1: can necessarily holding their hands as far as tools, but

37
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,840
Speaker 1: their intellect that those things that they bring to the

38
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 1: table to try to literally and just envision this for

39
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,520
Speaker 1: a second day, to try to fill in the blanks

40
00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 1: where soft tissue used to be. It no longer exists.

41
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,520
Speaker 1: You got the framework, but you know, the shingles are

42
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,560
Speaker 1: off the roof. There's no more siding on the house.

43
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,280
Speaker 1: All you've got is that framework that's left behind.

44
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,680
Speaker 2: And so as we dig into this today, dig.

45
00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 1: Hey, I see what you did there.

46
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:36,760
Speaker 2: I follow that all right.

47
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 3: But I noticed when you were looking and sharing some

48
00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 3: of this information with me that you had the basic

49
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 3: five things or ten things whatever, the very specific parts

50
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 3: of forensic anthropology. Yeah, so like from physical anthropology to linguistics. Yes,

51
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,880
Speaker 3: so if we carve these out one at a time

52
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 3: and they're all tied together, I'm already ready to flunk

53
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 3: the first final because having done stuff on radio and

54
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 3: television dealing with crime stuff forever, it seems, and I've

55
00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,640
Speaker 3: never dug this deep. I've heard things talked about, I've

56
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 3: heard you talk about them, but like, when you get

57
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,000
Speaker 3: right down to it, physical anthropology, start right there, Joe,

58
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 3: and tell me what is that and what does it

59
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:28,680
Speaker 3: mean to you?

60
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's back up a little bit, because you have

61
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,320
Speaker 1: you have this kind of you. If you think about

62
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 1: what's contained beneath the roof of the house of anthropology,

63
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, you go back to people like Margaret and

64
00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,920
Speaker 1: Meade that were studying tribal behaviors and all that sort

65
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 1: of stuff.

66
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,120
Speaker 2: And she was real quick. I apologize for jumping in. Yeah,

67
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:52,479
Speaker 2: all right.

68
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,680
Speaker 3: Back in the day, I think I was in sixth grade,

69
00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,480
Speaker 3: we lived two houses down from a woman named Margaret Meade.

70
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,560
Speaker 3: Really yeah, and she was really kind of secretive. You know,

71
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,600
Speaker 3: she was probably in her fifties at the time. I

72
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,200
Speaker 3: couldn't really tell she was old, you know, and everybody

73
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,480
Speaker 3: over for sanction.

74
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. But anyway, I thought, for the longest time, is

75
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:18,480
Speaker 2: that her?

76
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:19,440
Speaker 3: You know, when her.

77
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 2: Name came up in like junior high something anyway.

78
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you first hear junior high.

79
00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't. But I would walk by her house.

80
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:27,280
Speaker 1: Thinking what are the odds?

81
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean it's the thought. It's just you know, she's.

82
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,240
Speaker 1: Part of the study of cultural anthropology and you know,

83
00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 1: anthro it has to do with the study of mankind. Uh.

84
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,520
Speaker 1: And some people will say, well, it's the study of

85
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:51,720
Speaker 1: individual personages or it's a study of groups, and she,

86
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,720
Speaker 1: you know, she's an example of kind of how that blended,

87
00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:00,920
Speaker 1: I think. But that's you have these multiple sections within anthropology,

88
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,440
Speaker 1: and you know, one of my favorite things under the

89
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:10,240
Speaker 1: umbrella of anthropology is actually linguistics. I'm fascinated by linguistics.

90
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:15,640
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by linguists that you know, can talk about

91
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 1: the origins of languages and you know, and all of

92
00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 1: these all of these different little subtleties relative to how

93
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,880
Speaker 1: we communicate with one another in the origin of you know,

94
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,600
Speaker 1: of various types of languages and how we're kind of

95
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,000
Speaker 1: all interconnected that people don't think about. But then you

96
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:41,280
Speaker 1: come to physical anthropology, and beneath that umbrella you can

97
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,719
Speaker 1: go down a couple of different roads. You have physical anthropology,

98
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 1: which some would say a subset of that is archaeology

99
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 1: and paleo which goes back, you know, into the time

100
00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 1: of dinosaurs and all those sorts of things. But for

101
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:07,839
Speaker 1: our purposes, we you know, we have forensic anthropology. And

102
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,480
Speaker 1: anybody that starts off wanting to be a forensic anthropologist,

103
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: which mind you, is a very long road, you're going

104
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 1: to be rooted in all of those classical studies that

105
00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 1: individuals do in anthropology. You got to really want that.

106
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,560
Speaker 1: Because here's the thing. I have a lot of students

107
00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 1: that come to me and they'll say, Professor Morgan, I

108
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 1: want to go to the body farm and work up there,

109
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: and I want to become a forensic anthropologist. I'm like,

110
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,239
Speaker 1: are you sure be careful what you're what you're asking

111
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,680
Speaker 1: for here, because it's going to be a very long road,

112
00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, to attain the level of skill that you need.

113
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,000
Speaker 1: Most forensic anthropologists they don't hang a shingle out. It's

114
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,520
Speaker 1: not like they've got a business. Okay, where you go

115
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,800
Speaker 1: to and you walk into the forensic anthropologist's office and

116
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,600
Speaker 1: you know, you're sitting in the outer room you're reading

117
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, you're reading Red Book and you're waiting

118
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,679
Speaker 1: for an appointment or something. It's not like that. That's

119
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 1: a different kind of doctor. You're in there consulted. And

120
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 1: guess what, most of them work in academia, so there's

121
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,520
Speaker 1: not enough work out there to support yourself. Most people

122
00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:30,200
Speaker 1: that are forensic anthropologists work work in work in institutions

123
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,720
Speaker 1: somewhere where they teach in addition to it, and then

124
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,719
Speaker 1: assault as a forensic anthropologists.

125
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,720
Speaker 3: That's that's an amazing thing when you because I really

126
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,000
Speaker 3: did think that you have a case and you you

127
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 3: know what you need in terms of looking into this,

128
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 3: and you know, I need a forensic anthropologist. I really

129
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 3: did think that you had ten of them, you know,

130
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,439
Speaker 3: and you just start top of the list and you start.

131
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:55,720
Speaker 2: Calling who's available. You know.

132
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,440
Speaker 3: It was only after doing this show for some time

133
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,680
Speaker 3: that I realized that most of the people who do

134
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,720
Speaker 3: this very specialized work and requiring a lot of education

135
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,160
Speaker 3: in the classroom tremendous amount, and even more education out

136
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 3: in the field working with somebody who really knows what

137
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 3: they're doing, that they are lashed to a desk and

138
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,319
Speaker 3: have to create the time to even go back out

139
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 3: in the field.

140
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 2: It's a very difficult thing to compromse. I just thought

141
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,480
Speaker 2: they were I don't know why.

142
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:31,280
Speaker 1: Most of these people that are academic anthropologists, many of

143
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,440
Speaker 1: them work in large institutions. And there's a term that

144
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,120
Speaker 1: she used in academia, and you've probably heard it before,

145
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 1: but it bears repeating. It's called publisher parish. So they

146
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 1: study publisher parish. That means that you have to have

147
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,560
Speaker 1: ongoing research where you're essentially what it comes down to,

148
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 1: a lot of people will hold it up and say, well,

149
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: we're we're studying for the betterment of academia, and you know, no,

150
00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 1: you're not. You're you're studying and so that you can

151
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,280
Speaker 1: get a federal grant and bring it back into the institution.

152
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 1: And the institution needs those moneies in order to continue

153
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,800
Speaker 1: to function. And that's demonstrative of what's going on at

154
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 1: the institution. We're just putting all cards on the table here.

155
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 1: That's the reality of it. So if you're a forensic anthropologist,

156
00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,000
Speaker 1: not only are you teaching classes, but you're also having

157
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,600
Speaker 1: to do individual research and oh, by the bye, you're

158
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,960
Speaker 1: in addition to that, you're working with a variety of

159
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,360
Speaker 1: different law enforcement agencies. I think probably the template for that,

160
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,199
Speaker 1: and the best example is doctor Bill Bass, who founded

161
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 1: the Body Farm up in ut Up at the University

162
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,840
Speaker 1: of Tennessee and Knoxville and solely for the purpose of

163
00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 1: trying to understand how human beings decay, which is something

164
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 1: that most people in their wildest dreams would not think

165
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 1: about that occurring. And he created this decay lab, if

166
00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,120
Speaker 1: you will. And now there's several of them that are

167
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,440
Speaker 1: out there institutions. One of the ones that comes to

168
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,240
Speaker 1: mind is the Maple Center, which is down at the

169
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,320
Speaker 1: University of Florida. You say, well, Morgan, why would you

170
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,440
Speaker 1: need why would you need two of these in the South. Well,

171
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,199
Speaker 1: first off, there's not just two. I think Western Carolina

172
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,440
Speaker 1: has one as well now or they did. Did you

173
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:25,679
Speaker 1: know that when we talk about decomposition and how remains

174
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:32,320
Speaker 1: are naturally rendered down, the impact of the environment in Knoxville,

175
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,240
Speaker 1: Tennessee is completely different than if we were in gains

176
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,600
Speaker 1: with Florida. Those two environments are so desperately apart from

177
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,240
Speaker 1: one another. You're not going to have same insects, You're

178
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 1: not going to have same environmental conditions. All of those

179
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,560
Speaker 1: considerations have to go in and it's just like, and

180
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 1: I submit that a lot of the data that you

181
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 1: might collect in long term research at a place like

182
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 1: UT is not necessarily going to apply if you're working

183
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,640
Speaker 1: a case, let's say in Bismarck, North Dakota, Okay, because

184
00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,760
Speaker 1: the environment is going to dictate a lot of this.

185
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: You know, just what's your insect life up there, because

186
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: it ain't going to be the same as it is,

187
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,559
Speaker 1: you know, in smoky mountains, and it's not going to

188
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 1: be the same as you're going to get down in

189
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,400
Speaker 1: that marshy territory down in Gainesville where it's super hot

190
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 1: and humid and all those sorts of things. And you

191
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 1: could extend it out even further. You know what about

192
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,959
Speaker 1: you know because there's a very famous entomologist world were

193
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,840
Speaker 1: renowned entomologists that worked at the University of Hawaii or

194
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,520
Speaker 1: was it the University of Hawaii or the Shamanat I

195
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,080
Speaker 1: think anyway, it doesn't matter, but he was in Hawaii. Well,

196
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,280
Speaker 1: his world, if he's studying human remains, desiccation, human remains,

197
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,280
Speaker 1: that world is going to be completely different than some

198
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,920
Speaker 1: other locations. So you have to have a skill set

199
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,520
Speaker 1: where I think as a forensic anthropologist, where you study

200
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 1: or an understanding variety of things first off and at

201
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,680
Speaker 1: the most basic human anatomy, and you have to know

202
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,080
Speaker 1: it like the back of your hand. Nobody intended you

203
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 1: have to know human anatomy. You have to be able

204
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,400
Speaker 1: to here's an interesting thing and I heard this little

205
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 1: I got to tell you the story because it always

206
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,280
Speaker 1: fascinated me. There was a story that was related to

207
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 1: me by a friend of mine that was a forendsic

208
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,439
Speaker 1: anthropologist and had gone through the program at UT and

209
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 1: he did. He had to go through what was heard

210
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,840
Speaker 1: too as the box test, and the box test was

211
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,839
Speaker 1: where doctor Bass would sit on one side of the

212
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,480
Speaker 1: table and the student would be on the other side

213
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,600
Speaker 1: of the table and there'd be a cardboard box in

214
00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,079
Speaker 1: between you, and it had holes cut in either end.

215
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: You couldn't see inside the box. And doctor Bass would

216
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 1: insert his hand into one end of the box. Students

217
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,120
Speaker 1: and sert their hand into the other side of the box,

218
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 1: and the box is filled with comingled skeletal remains, and

219
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,160
Speaker 1: just by touch, just by feel, doctor Bass would pick

220
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 1: up that element that's contained in there. It could be

221
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:24,160
Speaker 1: a raccoon bone, it could be a human finger, an

222
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 1: element of the hand, and just by touch you had

223
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:36,480
Speaker 1: to tell him what it was blindly. That's how rigorous

224
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 1: this is. And just let that sink in just for

225
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 1: a second, because that's you know, when you hit that

226
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,240
Speaker 1: level of where you're using kind of your tactile senses

227
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 1: to be able to and you know, it's amazing the

228
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,560
Speaker 1: training that these people receive. People think about it, well,

229
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the I'm going to go

230
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,240
Speaker 1: to the Body Farm, or I'm going to go to

231
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,120
Speaker 1: the Maple Center. Take one of these courses. Yeah, you

232
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,400
Speaker 1: can do that, and you have a foundation, you know,

233
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 1: for what moves forward. Because there are specialized courses that

234
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 1: civilians and law enforcement you can go to, but it's

235
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 1: not like going through a master's or a doctoral program,

236
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,920
Speaker 1: certainly a doctoral program. When you get there, I puts.

237
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,720
Speaker 2: In the box just to mess with them.

238
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, kidd. It's the prospect of that on

239
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,040
Speaker 1: one level is very terrifying to me. But you have

240
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 1: to put on your science hat when you do that.

241
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking of the training and education it would

242
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,080
Speaker 3: take to determine this is a raccoon bone and not.

243
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,400
Speaker 2: A foot a small bone from the foot.

244
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, because we've got a billion bones in there and

245
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,400
Speaker 3: some are really small, and that I mean, that just

246
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 3: boggles my mind that you could do that by touch.

247
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 1: Well. I got to tell you one of a little

248
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: interesting story. The same friend of mine who was from

249
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 1: Louisiana but went to ut for his masters and its

250
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,680
Speaker 1: PhD uh. He used to like to take back roads home.

251
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,400
Speaker 1: He stayed off of interstates. It was just this thing.

252
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,040
Speaker 1: He just liked to travel, you know, through the un

253
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, through the less populated areas of the South.

254
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 1: And he had made it all the way from Knoxville

255
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,920
Speaker 1: and he was driving through like middle Middle Mississippi, you know,

256
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 1: heading home to South Louisiana, and he pulled into a

257
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 1: filling station there and there was a guy.

258
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 2: That was.

259
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,840
Speaker 1: That was the attendant, if you will, and it's a

260
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,680
Speaker 1: typical kind of Southern image. You can imagine he fell

261
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: and overall sitting outside in an old broken chair, and

262
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,760
Speaker 1: he greeted my friend, you know, as he drove up,

263
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 1: and my friend said that he noticed guy had a

264
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 1: necklace run around him, a leather necklace, and he looked

265
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,840
Speaker 1: at it and he said he saw a pennant on it.

266
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 1: And then further closer examination, he realized that it was

267
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 1: not a pennant, but it was a toothpick and it

268
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,600
Speaker 1: was hanging and it was a toothpick made out of bone.

269
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 1: And instantaneously, because of his training at UT, he knew

270
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 1: what that bone was. It was a vaculum. Do you

271
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:12,879
Speaker 1: know what a vaculum is?

272
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:13,640
Speaker 2: Daved?

273
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 1: A baculum is actually a bone that is are you

274
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,639
Speaker 1: ready for this? That it's contained as part of the

275
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 1: antomical structure of certain animals, particularly raccoons, that allows them

276
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 1: to achieve an erection, and so it can be taken

277
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:42,160
Speaker 1: and filed to a sharp point. And I'd never heard

278
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,119
Speaker 1: of this before. And you can drill a hole in

279
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,640
Speaker 1: one end of it, hanging around your neck and use

280
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 1: it as a toothpick. And this fella had one of those.

281
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,960
Speaker 1: It's that kind of attention to detail. I was with

282
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 1: the same friend of mine one day and we were

283
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 1: walking across the construction area to go get a cup

284
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 1: of coffee, not too far away from the Medical Examiner's

285
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,359
Speaker 1: office and construction areas. If you're ever walking through I

286
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,679
Speaker 1: think most people can identify with this. You see clods

287
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 1: of dirt built up, laying about and that sort of thing,

288
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 1: and you look down at the earth and to us,

289
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 1: we see clods of dirt. To him, it wasn't like that.

290
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 1: My friend always walked around with his head downward looking

291
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 1: and I heard him say hmm. And I learned a

292
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,200
Speaker 1: long time ago that if this individual ever said hmm

293
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 1: or wow, look at that, it's something I need to

294
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,639
Speaker 1: take notice of. He reaches down, picks up a clod

295
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 1: of dirt, cracks it in half, and he caught the

296
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 1: edge of something that was abnormal in his clod, and

297
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 1: he pulled out what he estimated to be an eighteen

298
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 1: ninety friction match holder with the carving of a or

299
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,160
Speaker 1: the impression of a dog and a hunter on it

300
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: where a fellow had dropped the scene where he kept

301
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,120
Speaker 1: his matches in and he could strike them, and therese

302
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 1: called friction matches, the old kind where you can see

303
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 1: somebody like flicking it with their thumb, you know, like

304
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 1: they're doing the movies, and I never would have seen that.

305
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,880
Speaker 1: But it's that kind of training and attention to detail

306
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,120
Speaker 1: that you want in any kind of forensic anthropologists you're

307
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 1: going to invite onto your death scene. I think probably

308
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,120
Speaker 1: out of I don't know if you guys share this opinion,

309
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 1: but for me, out of all of the Terminator movies

310
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 1: with Schwarzenegger, my favorite one is the second one, you know,

311
00:19:54,200 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 1: with the Liquid guy. I love that movie. I'd watch it.

312
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 1: It's almost like a remote drop moment for me. I

313
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 1: watch it pretty much every time that it comes on.

314
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,959
Speaker 1: First one's okay, I never really watched the other ones,

315
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,360
Speaker 1: but there's a line in that movie involving Sarah Connor

316
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: where she is holding someone against their will and she

317
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 1: says to them there are two hundred I think it

318
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,200
Speaker 1: was two hundred and six bones in the human body,

319
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: and she implies at least that she's going to break

320
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 1: every one of them if this individual doesn't comply to

321
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: her and that you know, that ain't gonna happen. But

322
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: at any rate, she brings that up. And one of

323
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: the things that you think about with skeletal anatomy is

324
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 1: that it's so vast and just you know, just indulge

325
00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: me here and think about this with with the with

326
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 1: the skeletal anatomy, most adults do have approximately and it

327
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: can vary, do have two hundred and six bones in

328
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 1: the body. Okay, babies are born with two hundred and seventy's.

329
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 1: It's one of those weird things where the older you get,

330
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 1: the fewer bones you have developmentally, and that kind of

331
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: interesting and that's that goes through the process of the

332
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: bones fusing and these sorts of things where you're you know,

333
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 1: you're developing along the way. And again those numbers, many

334
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: people think that those numbers are absolutely static. Sometimes they're not.

335
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes people will have more or fewer. But on the whole,

336
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: it's approximately two hundred and two hundred and six. And

337
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: you've got two separate if you want to break it

338
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: down atomically so that we can understand it, you've got uh,

339
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 1: two axes that you work on really with the human skeleton.

340
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: You have the what's referred to as the axillary, which

341
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: is going to be kind of the mid line, that

342
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 1: the center part of your body. And then you have

343
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 1: the appendicular and those are like your attachments, like your

344
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 1: arms and your legs. So you've got your center core,

345
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: your trunk, which is going to be the axilla, and

346
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: then you're going to have the appendicular that extends out

347
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: from the bodies. So you're working in those two, those

348
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 1: two broad groups when you're trying to determine, you know,

349
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: what remains there are. I was thinking, David, I was

350
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 1: telling you before we went on air to days start

351
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: taping taping boy dating myself there when Brian Laundry's remained

352
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: were found down there in that swamp. I'm actually looking

353
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 1: at his report right now that the forensic anthropologists generated.

354
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: By the way, it's very well written report.

355
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: Back up very quickly.

356
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 3: Brian Laundry the person who killed his fiance Gabby Gabby

357
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: sorry Gabby Patito and then drove her band that she

358
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 3: made for back to his parents' house in Florida, where

359
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 3: they had been living before they were on their trip,

360
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 3: and then after dodging police with help from his parents,

361
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: he then goes out into the woods camping and commits suicide.

362
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 3: But after committing suicide, the area where he did it

363
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 3: in that park got flooded. Yeah, okay, So the reason

364
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 3: I'm setting that scene is a lot of people don't

365
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 3: realize what the forensic anthropologist was required to do when

366
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 3: they got on scene. So what was different about that

367
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: Joe that required a very very special investigator to come

368
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 3: in and figure out what happened?

369
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 2: I mean, he's got a gun.

370
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: Shut in the head, right, Yeah, he does. And by

371
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: the way, it's a very atypical gunshot wound as far

372
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: as self inflicted. I've always you know, kind of raised

373
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 1: an eyebrow to that.

374
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 2: But that's okay.

375
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: Well, it wasn't necessarily positioned in classic classic location as

376
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 1: far as an entrance wind goes. It was more up

377
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: and back, which you know, always intrigued me intellectually.

378
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: You know, where would it normally be? Where would you expect?

379
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: Well, you're you're thinking there are Let's just break it

380
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: down this way. There are four major bone groups that

381
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: compose the human skull. You got. You'll tap your forehead,

382
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 1: that's your frontal bone, and up above it bilaterally on

383
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: either side, you have what's referred to as the paradal

384
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: or some people will say parati heel, and it's kind

385
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: of a curved bone. It's on both sides and it's

386
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: high up and then below the proetal on either side. Again, bilaterally,

387
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: you have the temporal bone, okay, which is a very

388
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: thin bone. It's on either side forward of the ear.

389
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: As the prital bone sweeps back and down, it marries

390
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: up with the excipital bone, which is that bony protuberance

391
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: that you have on the backside. And those are like

392
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: the four major bone groups in forensics that we look at,

393
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, Like if we'll I'll give you an example

394
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: why it's important. Like when we go to the scene

395
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 1: most of the time, if we're talking about an injury

396
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: to the skull, we're going to say things like he's

397
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: sustained a gunshot woman or a parent gunshot wound to

398
00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 1: the right right temple or in the right pril bone.

399
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: And it is i don't know, five centimeters four of

400
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: the top of the right ear. It's superior to the

401
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: right right miatus, which is your actually to your ear hole.

402
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: It's it's superior to that by ten ten centimeters and

403
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: so it's all about orientation, you know, where these are

404
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: with laundry in particular, if you have this baseline of

405
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: number of bones and again this approximation of two hundred

406
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: and six when they went out there day to this

407
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you pointed this out, you know, I

408
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: completely Isn't that amazing? We talked about this case for years, right,

409
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: certainly months with gap Tito, and it's you know, for

410
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: me going you know, moving forward, and probably with you.

411
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: I hate to speak for you, but you know, it

412
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: begins to fade, you know, after a while, because you're

413
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: layering all these other cases on top of it. When

414
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: they went to examine or try to recover his remains,

415
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: they've they found roughly one hundred and three bones. Okay,

416
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: So that that gives you an idea, you know, you're

417
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: you're literally that is literally if you're thinking about two

418
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: hundred and six bones that we're supposed to have had

419
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: half of that? Okay, Now what do we mean by that? Well,

420
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: you know you've got and bones can range in size,

421
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: you know, I guess the smallest bone is probably the

422
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: state ease, which is one of those tiny little bones

423
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: that's inside of your ear all right, you remember that

424
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: we learned all that in school. You know, we've got

425
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: the hammer and the anvil and all that stuff.

426
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: Just to give you an idea, Like many people listening

427
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 3: right now, I actually probably napped for most of that,

428
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 3: and then the night before I broke out the book

429
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: and memorized as best I could. Took the test the

430
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: next day, and if I got a C minus, I

431
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: was the abbeys.

432
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: My big bugaboo was always the hands and the feet.

433
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: Those the hands and feet are absolutely miracle creation of God.

434
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: They're they're so complex and so a typical cap to

435
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: any any doctor that's out there that works on hands

436
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: and feet, because it's the The anatomy is so complex,

437
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: the biomechanics are so complex. But you know, you have

438
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: the state ease, which is arguably the tiniest bone, and

439
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: then the longest bone and the human bodies the femur,

440
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: which is you know where it fits into uh, into

441
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: your your hip socket if you will, extends all the

442
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: way from your hip down. So with with laundry. For example,

443
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: he you know, he roughly had one hundred, one hundred

444
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: and eight bones that they were covered out there. And

445
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: what made is so very difficult is that this Dave,

446
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: this was not This was not a burial, okay, And

447
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: forensic anthropologists have to work in a variety of different conditions.

448
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: This is a water environment, which they by the way,

449
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, I probably am. I think that

450
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: the forensic anthropologists either came from University of Southern Florida

451
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: or the University of Central Florida. My money's on Southern

452
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: Florida though, And she kind of led the team out there,

453
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, because FBI crime Scene Response team

454
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: was already out there. And this is very complex because

455
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: once bodies begin to decay and you're in a very

456
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: austere environment like this, the kind of rising and falling

457
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: of tide are not tied. But the water levels in

458
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: the swampy area are going to be dictated by rainfall.

459
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: And you know, for those of us that have you know,

460
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: spent any time in Florida, you know that they'll get

461
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: gully washers down there, that will everything will be you'll

462
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: have water standing in the streets well. Just and that's

463
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: in a controlled environment where you have gutter systems and

464
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: all that. Just imagine you're in the swampy area back

465
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: in this park day and there's nowhere for the water

466
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: to really drain to. In the immediate it just kind

467
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: of kind of floats there, okay, and then it'll drop

468
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: back down, then it'll go back up, then it'll drop

469
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: back down. So you know, in the early piece to this,

470
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: when he died, he now becomes subject to that same environment.

471
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: And there's even you know, and even in the report

472
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: for laundry, you know, the forensic anthropologist goes to some

473
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: length and describe that there had been you know, carnivore

474
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: activity that had been you know, feasting on his remains.

475
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: So there's no telling how many bones were essentially drug

476
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: off to some burrow somewhere, taken up in a tree,

477
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: which will happen the tinier bones. And it creates a

478
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: very complex environment. And some of the stuff that forensic

479
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: anthropologists do a lot of it is based on not

480
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: just what they're seeing, but what they do what they

481
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: don't see. Just let that sink in for a second.

482
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: You know, you think about other sciences that are out there,

483
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: and there are some that work on this idea that

484
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not just looking for positive findings. I'm

485
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: looking for negative findings, and I don't mean positive and

486
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: negative relative to how you happen to feel about something

487
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: in a moment time. I'm talking about a presence or

488
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: an absence of something, and so that's one of the

489
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: things you know with laundry in particularly, and there have

490
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: been a lot of other cases like this too over

491
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: the years. So just because you go out to a

492
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: scene where their skeletal remains doesn't mean that the remains

493
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: are going to be completely hacked, that it will all

494
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: be there. And that's where the difficulty really arises as

495
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: it's applied to the skill of the forensic anthropologists. How

496
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: are they going to be able to interpret what they're finding,

497
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: how does it fit into the narrative of the death,

498
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: and what can their assessment reveal out there. I found

499
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: that it's better for me, in particular, that when I

500
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: am at the scene with the forensic anthropologist, no matter

501
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: how much study I've done in the past, no matter

502
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: how many cases I've worked, it's better that for that

503
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: moment in time, when I'm in that individual's presence, I'm

504
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: no longer an investigator. I'm a student that should keep

505
00:32:52,680 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: their mouths shut and their eyes and their ears. People

506
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: talk a lot about doctor bass as well as should

507
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: because he is a giant in the field of forensic anthropology.

508
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: Uh and in forensic science, it's not just a lot

509
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: of stuff that doctor Bass has done has you know,

510
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: kind of seeped over into other practice. He's greatly influenced

511
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: forensic pathology. I think he's he's influenced the study of

512
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: ballistics relative to how bones interact with projectiles. Tool marks

513
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: is one of the big areas that they that they investigate.

514
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: He had one fellow on his staff for a long

515
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: time that was one of the leading experts in the

516
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: world on saw marks. And all this guy did was

517
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: study the different types of saw blades and what kind

518
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: of impressions they would generate on bone, whether it's you know,

519
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: aular saw or a hack saw. But one of the

520
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: more interesting characters in forensic anthropology is a guy that

521
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: is no longer with us, and I think he was

522
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: at the University of Oklahoma for a long time. It's

523
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: doctor Clyde Snow and doctor Snow who I never had

524
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: an opportunity to meet. I wish that I could have.

525
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: Doctor Snow was kind of a rotund individual that was

526
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: always dressed. He always looked like he was going on

527
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: safari and smoked a lot and he but he came

528
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: up with a really interesting term and I still use

529
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: this to this day. When I teach a section at

530
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: jack State on on forensic anthropology, he coined the phrase.

531
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: He coined the phrase, let me get this straight straight osteobiography.

532
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: And what he understood that many people don't understand is

533
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: that by the study of human skeletal remains, we can

534
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: learn so much about bodies, and not just the remains

535
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: that are in front of you, but a life that

536
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: had been lived prior to that. And let me give

537
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: you a kind of a one of the the big

538
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: for instances here. Let's just say that you've got human

539
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: remains and you're trying to determine you're trying to do

540
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: sex determination on a skeletal remain. Well, you're not just

541
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: looking at the size of the bone, because males male's

542
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: bones tend to be robust. Female bones tend to be

543
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: was referred to as grassisle, which means kind of delicate. Fine,

544
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: you're looking for any kind of disease related changes. Well,

545
00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: if you've got a bone that shows shows an indicatation

546
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: of osteoporosis, well, odds are that's not going to be

547
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: a male skeletal element. That's going to be a female element.

548
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: Because there's a huge industry out there that's built up

549
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: on treating osteoporosis. I mean, how many times do you

550
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: hear that in the news. I knew one friend of

551
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: my wife who she ate ate tombs every single day

552
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: because her doctor told her that it's a great source

553
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: of calcium to you know, knock down, use something, use

554
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: something to knock down the advancement of osteoporosis. There's other

555
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: diseases too, you know. You have like if you're digging

556
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: through older remains and they'll have somebody died of tuberculosis,

557
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: there will be these changes that take place to bone

558
00:36:54,600 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: as a result of tuberculosis. You have cases where I

559
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: know there's a current dig that's going on over in

560
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: uh and I'd mentioned this I think in a previous

561
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: episode going on over in Bristol, England, and you have

562
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: the bodies of children, and the children are malnourished well developmentally,

563
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: that skeleton is going to demonstrate malnutrition. Okay, trauma. I

564
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: don't know about you, Dave. I think I have played football,

565
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: I think I I think I have broken every one

566
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: of my fingers at one point in time, most of

567
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: them I would just pop, and now I'm paying the

568
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: price for it. I've broken my hand, broken my nose

569
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: three times. You know I've had Yeah, no kidding, it

570
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: seems like it. But you know, if you were to

571
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: strip down all that remains a Joe Scott Morgan and

572
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: you were looking at my skeleton, well, I have an osteobiography.

573
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: As a result, you're going to be able to tell

574
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: certain little things about me and the life that I

575
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: had led. Not only are you going to be able

576
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 1: to see, for instance, when my nose that has been

577
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: broken multiple times, not only going to see evidence that

578
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: it has been broken, but as time has gone on,

579
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: you're going to be able to appreciate the You're going

580
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 1: to be able to appreciate how long ago this happened

581
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: because the bone will begin to smooth. You look at.

582
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm always fascinated by is

583
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: if I ever had a skull, I would look at

584
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: the sutures on the top of the skull, which are

585
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: if you, I urge anybody right now, go and look

586
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: up picture an actual picture of a human skull, and

587
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: you'll see these kind of curvilinear lines that run through

588
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: the middle line of the skull and they run on

589
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: the backside of the frontal bone and back in the

590
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: acceptial area. Well, those are called suture lines. And when

591
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: we're babies and we're forming, you know that kind of

592
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: and they have interlocking teeth. Well, we'll look at a

593
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: human skull, Dave, and if those suture lines are smooth,

594
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: like when you run your hand over it, you can't

595
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: feel them. Sometimes they're obliterated. You know that that person

596
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: was like really advanced in age because you think about

597
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: just doing this, just imagine this every time you raise

598
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: your eyebrows frowned. Okay, smile, The overlying skin is moving

599
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,959
Speaker 1: and it wears on bone. Over a period of time,

600
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: it eradicates it, and you'll have like we call it

601
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: sure suture obliteration. You'll also have it if you take

602
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: the tip of your tongue and stick it a roof

603
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: of your mouth. That's actually your hard palette. You've heard

604
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: that term before. Well, if you stripped away the skin,

605
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 1: the tissue off of your hard palate and you could

606
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: get down to the bone, which actually is kind of

607
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: like the floor of the skull, there's suture lines in

608
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: there and those sutures well, I actually did a paper

609
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: on this years ago. You have suture line obliteration in

610
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: the roof of the mouth as well, and then you

611
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: have joint where you can see arthritic changes. And if

612
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: anybody has had like a gunshot wound of broken arm,

613
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: even if it's been surgically repaired, you can still see

614
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: evidence that the bone is what's called modeled. It's trying

615
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: to fuse, you know, back together, and you'll get you know,

616
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: bones will do that. You can have somebody that has

617
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: a severe break and they never got it treated. You'll

618
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: see some old person that's limping around, for instance, and

619
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: if you look at their like if you're talking about

620
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: a fractured femur that was never repaired by you know,

621
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: by surgery or whatever, you'll see these kind of I

622
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: don't really know how to describe them. You'll see these

623
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: kind of protuberances on the bone and it's it's kind

624
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: of ghastly looking where the bone is has fused back

625
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: together and the person permanently walks with a limp. Probably

626
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 1: in life they had a hard time, but that bone

627
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: wants to get back together and heal, and you can

628
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: see surgical interventions as well. There's any number of bones

629
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: that I've been on site with forensic anthropology we've recovered

630
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: that had screws in them, you know, where you'll have

631
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: somebody that had some kind of surgical repair and this

632
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: is these are stainless steel screws back in the day.

633
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: They're probably using other types of components now to do that.

634
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 3: The original Planet of the Apes when Tarlton Heston is

635
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: in the cave and he's going through the different things

636
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: that it be found in there. One was dental the

637
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: other was the heart valve, you know, and he was

638
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 3: describing the things that he knew of that.

639
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 2: Person who has long gone. All those left. Isn't that amazing?

640
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: I forgot all about that scene And you're absolutely right,

641
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: and that stuff does remain behind. I think at the

642
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: Morphy case in particular, Oh wow, where the port was

643
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: found with her remains, her skeletal remains, and that stuff.

644
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: Eventually it would it's going to go away, but it'll

645
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: hang back. And there's certain things that you're looking for

646
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: at the scene that will give you an indication of

647
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: this individual's osteobiography. But you know, there's so many cases

648
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: over the years have have required the use of forensic

649
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: anthropologists probably. And let me give you an example, going

650
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: back to doctor Snow. Doctor Snow was had quite the

651
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: reputation of being you know, he was kind of a

652
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if you use the term swashbuckler. I

653
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: don't think he was swimming off of chandeliers, but he

654
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: was a man of his time. He actually went and

655
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: can you imagine doing this, he imagine going down to

656
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: Central America in the height of all the civil wars

657
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: that were happening back in the eighties, and Dave he'd

658
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: go down there and exhum mass graves and be shot

659
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: at while he's down there, and he's standing on the

660
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: edge in some jungle location, you know, in Honduras or Nicaragua,

661
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: where El Salvador, wherever it is that he was, and

662
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: to try to make sense out of what was still

663
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: in those graves. And I think a lot of people

664
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: would say, and this goes to kind of being an anthropologist,

665
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: A lot of people will say, well, they're dead. What

666
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: difference does it make. We know that they were all

667
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: lined up and shot and pushed down a grave. But

668
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: you can learn a lot from first off, what has

669
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 1: been deposited in the grave. For instance, if in war

670
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: crimes cases and you see this in You've seen this

671
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: in Europe over the years as well, and I would

672
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: submit to you in Southeast Asia, when people are killed

673
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: and dumped into a grave, well you need to have

674
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: forensic anthropologists to tell you are they only killing males?

675
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: Are they killing males, are they killing only females? Are

676
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: they killing the elderly? Are they trying to eradicate all

677
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: of the children in a particular village. From that, you

678
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: can begin to kind of piece together what sorts of

679
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 1: people you're dealing with. And when this goes, say, for instance,

680
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: you're working a case of you know, genocide like this,

681
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: that information would go to like a World court or

682
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 1: wherever it is that they try to prosecute these things

683
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: to give them an idea as to who is being

684
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: targeted in any particular case. You know, there are a

685
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: lot of cases where, particularly if you have tribal issues,

686
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: where they'll kill all the males and then kidnap all

687
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 1: the women and children and try to you know, bring

688
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: them into their own community. And so that's the type

689
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: of thing that you know that doctor Snow would do,

690
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: and then he would look, you know, he'd also try

691
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: to give them an idea. How were they killed? Is

692
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: there an indication that they had endured torture over a

693
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: protracted period of time where they're being beaten, they've got

694
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: multiple broken bones that occurred in life, or was this

695
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: simply they dragged them out of their homes in the

696
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: middle of the night and began to pop them in

697
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: the back of the head into a preduct grave. So

698
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: you can learn a lot. You can learn a lot

699
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: by what you're seeing physically manifesting itself out of a

700
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: scene with going back to, you know, to other cases

701
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: that are out there. I had friends that worked Waco,

702
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: for instance, that were out there. Dave, You're talking just

703
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: tens of not just skeletal remains, but you're talking skeletal

704
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 1: remains that are skeletonized as a result of intense flame.

705
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: These these remains are incredibly fragile. I wrote about in

706
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: my book Blood Beneath My Feet from all those years

707
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: ago where I'd had an episode of I was going

708
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: through a real tough time in my life and really

709
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: dealing with certain issues with PTSD. And we had a

710
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: guy on Georgia four hundred that had run his car

711
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: into the side of a pillar of a support uh

712
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: support pillar of a overpass on George of four hundred.

713
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: And I'll never forget. It was a little Uh, I

714
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: was gonna say Texas. It was a little Ford Ranger

715
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: pickup truck. He was on his way into work and

716
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: when he hit this bridge pillar support pillar, his truck

717
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: burst into flames, and he was trying to get out

718
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: of the car and he, you know, he succumbed and

719
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: his body continued to burn. And to give you an

720
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: idea of the fragile nature of it and what you encounter.

721
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: When I was at the scene, I went to and

722
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: as was my practice, i'd look inside the cap of

723
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: a vehicle, even if it had been on fire. And

724
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: I'm looking around, and this guy's hands were in let's

725
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 1: refer to as the pugilistic condition or posture, where the

726
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: hands are drawn up at the Everything contracts at that

727
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: point in time depend upon heat. And as I stuck

728
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: my head into the cab, the guy's left hand brushed

729
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 1: against my right cheek, and in kind of a stamp move,

730
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: I grabbed like this with my left gloved hand, and

731
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: his entire arm broke off in my hand. And when

732
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: you think about the intensity of fire, for instance, like

733
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: in Waco, or you think about the Twin Towers, this

734
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: intense flame that's in there, these remains become very very fragile,

735
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: so you're already dealing with something where you're trying to

736
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: assess a few things. Well, first off, you want to

737
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: know who they are. We've talked about this on body

738
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: bags before. It's to me, knowing who somebody is is

739
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: probably more important than knowing what caused their death, because

740
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: if I can find out who they are, I can

741
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: fill in the blanks relative to the life that they led,

742
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: and maybe in some way the police can take that

743
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: information and go find out who killed them. So you're

744
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: trying to determine who they are, and then you're trying

745
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: to determine what happened to them. And it's only a

746
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist that really has that skill set to deal

747
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: with these very fragile, delicate remains, and they're always fighting

748
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: against the elements. That's one of the fascinating things about

749
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: the practice of forensic anthropology. You know all those things

750
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: that they do when they go back to their lab

751
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: and try to ascertain whose remains they're dealing with, Who

752
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: is this person it's rather a daunting task, Dave.

753
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 3: So the forensic anthropologist is brought in, going back to

754
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 3: brian laundry for a minute, because we find his skeletonized

755
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 3: remains as bones and I guess there was minimal amount

756
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 3: of flesh.

757
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

758
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 2: They take the bones and they send them to the friends.

759
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 3: They anthropologist, and the entire point is to figure out

760
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 3: how this person died. They already know who it is.

761
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure that's part of the process. You

762
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 3: have to positively identify the individual, even though you know

763
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 3: it is all right. But you mentioned that there was

764
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 3: something wrong about or not wrong, something different about the gunshot.

765
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

766
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 3: So the forensic anthropologists coming into this, are they tasked

767
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 3: with determining what happened? Or are they tasked with tell

768
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: us the facts of this situation of what you see

769
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 3: right here, not your years of experience, but just what

770
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: does the bone tell you?

771
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 2: Is that what they're doing. I'm kind of curious.

772
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: Because you said that is what they're doing. And listen,

773
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 1: police are sitting there and they're scratching their head, okay,

774
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: because they're trying to determine, uh, what happened to this individual.

775
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: They might suspect that there's a gunshot woman. But when

776
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: you're listening, if you're if you're talking about a remain

777
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: that has been exposed to harsh elements, you can have

778
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 1: events where the skeleton will just kind of come to pieces, okay,

779
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: and you don't know, for instance, would laundry as an example,

780
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: you don't know if this defect and we'll call it

781
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: a defect instead of a gunshot woman, because that's really

782
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: all that you know at that point, you've got a whole.

783
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: Is that was that whole something that occurred in life

784
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,280
Speaker 1: leading up to death or is it something that occurred afterwards,

785
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: because you begin to think about, well, you've got animal activity,

786
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: you know that that's occurring out there? Was there an

787
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: animal that was gnawing on this on this remain? I

788
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: give you if you think that that's far fetched. I've

789
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: had in my career. I've had two cases involving involving

790
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: dogs that drug skulls up into backyards and their masters

791
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: went into the backyard and they were in the backyard

792
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: at both homes at the same time, at not the

793
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: same time, but two different cases. And the dog you know,

794
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 1: if you've ever I loved dogs, by the way, but

795
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: if you if you ever see a dog with a ball,

796
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: they'll put it between their their paws and they'll they'll

797
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: play with it and that sort of thing. Well, you

798
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: take something shaped like a ball, like a human skull,

799
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 1: and they're going to have it between their their their

800
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: forepaws like this. And in both cases, the dog had

801
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: set to gnawing on the top of the skull and

802
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: over period of time, if you know, if they kept

803
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,959
Speaker 1: that skull and just kind of they'd break the whole

804
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: thing down eventually.

805
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:56,919
Speaker 3: Uh.

806
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: You know, I've got a I've got a rescue lib

807
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: door retriever and she's got incredible jaw strength. I mean,

808
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: she can eradicate an entire bone in no period of

809
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: time whatsoever. It's amazing what they can do. So you

810
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: have to factor all that in. You're trying to give

811
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: this information back to the police, and the forensic anthropologies

812
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: is given enough time, will arrive at their own conclusion

813
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:26,439
Speaker 1: about not just anti mortem versus post mortem, but they

814
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: will also give you an idea as to things like

815
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: with gunshot wounds. They'll give you an idea about directionality.

816
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 1: You know, is this front to back, is it left

817
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: to right, is it from above to below? You know

818
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: trajectory of bullets. Then you get into these areas that

819
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: Lord knows, Dave you and I have covered so many

820
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 1: of them. With dismemberments, you have to be really no

821
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: pun intended as forensic anthropologies. You have to be very

822
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: sharp relat to dismemberment because you have to understand what

823
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: kind of tool could have facilitated this bone coming apart.

824
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 1: You know that it didn't just spontaneously come apart in

825
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: midshaft of a femur with a spiral saw marks on

826
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: the on the leading edges of it. This is something

827
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: that somebody took a you know, maybe they took a

828
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 1: bandsaw or they took a circular saw and just ran

829
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: it through the center of the thing. Well, what type

830
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: of instrument is this? So you have to be up

831
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: on tool marks to be able to assess this. And

832
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: also was this done in life? Was this part of torture?

833
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: Could it? You know, was some limb hacked off while

834
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 1: the person was still alive or was this something that

835
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: was done after the fact. So you have to be

836
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: really up your You have to really up your game

837
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:55,240
Speaker 1: as a forensic anthropologist to not just understand the bone

838
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: itself or trying to classify it anatomically. But these individuals

839
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: have to be able to be able to understand what

840
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: happened to the person in death, because for the most part,

841
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: when we die and you call in a forensic anthropologist,

842
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: our bony structures are all that remain. I'm Joseph Scott

843
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Bodybacks.