Speaker 1: When you're somebody who has it in you, this burning
Speaker 1: secret desire to do some kind of creative work. If
Speaker 1: you don't, you turn toxic. Welcome to the one you feed.
Speaker 1: Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think ring true. And yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this
Speaker 1: episode is Brian Koppelman. He's a Hollywood writer, director, and
Speaker 1: occasional producer. Some of his movies are Rounders, Solitary Man,
Speaker 1: Knock Around Guys, Oceans Thirteen, and The Illusionist. He creates
Speaker 1: the six second screenwriting lessons on Vine, which are a
Speaker 1: great inspiration for artists of any kind. He's also the
Speaker 1: host of an excellent new grant Land podcast called The
Speaker 1: Moment with Brian Koppelman. Welcome to the show, Brian. It's
Speaker 1: my pleasure to be here, guys, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I thought we'd start off with maybe you're telling us
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you became a screenwriter, because
Speaker 1: I think you came to it a little bit later
Speaker 1: than than some people to do, and I'm curious to
Speaker 1: the journey that got you there. H happy to talk
Speaker 1: about it. I'm so glad you didn't hit me with
Speaker 1: the what the expression the one you feed means, because
Speaker 1: I've been really stressing about having to answer it. I'll
Speaker 1: come back to it, doory. But I became a screenwriter,
Speaker 1: and I uh, right around when I turned thirty. Um,
Speaker 1: I got to a point in my life where, um,
Speaker 1: it became it became clear to me that what I
Speaker 1: was doing wasn't I wasn't really living my dream and
Speaker 1: I wasn't really living to what I felt was, you know,
Speaker 1: like the fullest my capacity. And I had just had
Speaker 1: um when I was twenty nine. My son was born,
Speaker 1: our son, or first child, and I realized I wanted
Speaker 1: to be the kind of dad who would come home
Speaker 1: at night and and tell his kids to chase their
Speaker 1: dream and to you know that that it's true that
Speaker 1: you can if you work hard enough, UH and are
Speaker 1: clear enough, you could be anything you want to be.
Speaker 1: And I realized I wasn't living that, and so I
Speaker 1: would be able to really say it, and I didn't
Speaker 1: want to turn bitter. And I knew that I had
Speaker 1: to be creating. I didn't know if it meant I
Speaker 1: had to be a screenwriter or a novelist or stand
Speaker 1: up comedian, but I knew I had I had to
Speaker 1: start really creating from my life and UH and made
Speaker 1: the decision to do it. And shortly thereafter UM, I
Speaker 1: went and spoke to my lifelong best friend David Levine
Speaker 1: and and he was working as a bartender and was writing,
Speaker 1: and we made a commitment that we're going to figure
Speaker 1: out how to write something together. And soon within a
Speaker 1: few months of that, I walked into a poker club
Speaker 1: late at night and I left that clag I cleaned
Speaker 1: out and I left that club. In the middle of
Speaker 1: the night. I called Dave and I said, I think
Speaker 1: I know the setting for this for this first movie
Speaker 1: that we're going to write and that was that was
Speaker 1: ers right, it was, and we we made this commitment
Speaker 1: to one another. We researched it. We spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time in the clubs. We really read every book
Speaker 1: on poker that existed, and watched every videotape of every
Speaker 1: world series of poker. This is before there was a
Speaker 1: whole card camp. And then once we were ready to write,
Speaker 1: we committed to meeting every morning before I would go
Speaker 1: to work and after he tends to bar. And we
Speaker 1: worked for two hours a day, five days a week,
Speaker 1: and never missed a day until we finished the screenplay.
Speaker 1: And they did you have it? You guys were not
Speaker 1: in the Hollywood infrastructure. How challenging was it for you
Speaker 1: to sell the script? You know? Ours is a weird
Speaker 1: story because Um David had met a young manager. When
Speaker 1: Dave got out of college, he went out to Hollywood.
Speaker 1: He worked for a couple of years as an assistant
Speaker 1: and Um had met some people, met a young manager
Speaker 1: who had never sold anything. Maybe it's sold one TV movie.
Speaker 1: And he sent our script to that guy whose name
Speaker 1: is Seth Jared, and Seth said, I know this is
Speaker 1: a movie. I can sell this, And Um it got
Speaker 1: rejected by every single agency in Hollywood. SETH got it
Speaker 1: to big people at every agency. They all rejected it.
Speaker 1: But then very shortly thereafter, um, he got it in
Speaker 1: the hands of a producer, a woman named Tracy Falco,
Speaker 1: who worked for this director Ted Demi, who's who was
Speaker 1: a great guy who died ten years ago. And uh,
Speaker 1: and they got it into Harvey Weinstein's hands. And so
Speaker 1: although for us it felt like nothing but rejection because
Speaker 1: we just had a ton of rejection quickly, the truth
Speaker 1: is we finished the script on like January one or second, um,
Speaker 1: and then uh, we were in production. It was purchased
Speaker 1: by Mirramax on March three, and we were in production
Speaker 1: December fift of the same year. So ours was not
Speaker 1: a typical story nor a typical ride. Yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: pretty quick. Yeah was it was really you know, it
Speaker 1: was amazing in a way. Dave and I were you know,
Speaker 1: I was thirty and he was, I guess twenty eight
Speaker 1: and turns twenty nine. When when we were doing it,
Speaker 1: we weren't like people who were just out of college
Speaker 1: and had this you know idea they were going to write.
Speaker 1: I mean it, we really approached it with an incredible
Speaker 1: amount of focus and determination, and I think we were
Speaker 1: at it for really the right reasons, which was we
Speaker 1: found a story we were dying to tell. We knew
Speaker 1: this was our chance to really be storytellers, and we
Speaker 1: really gave it everything that we had. And you've got
Speaker 1: the the six second screenwriting lessons that you do and
Speaker 1: and a lot of those seemed to revolve around sort
Speaker 1: of exactly what you just said, which is about just
Speaker 1: doing the work, about committing yourself, being disciplined, and doing
Speaker 1: it no matter what. That seems to be one theme
Speaker 1: that that crops up pretty regularly. Well, it's so it's
Speaker 1: one of the only things that you have control over, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, if if you want to be in the arts,
Speaker 1: so much of it um the way your work is received,
Speaker 1: who chooses to read it, the mood that they're in
Speaker 1: when when they read it. You can't control any of that.
Speaker 1: You can try to improve your odds various ways, but
Speaker 1: the but one thing you can control is showing up
Speaker 1: every day and working with focus and passion and discipline.
Speaker 1: And you can choose your subject matter and you can
Speaker 1: choose the art form. So it's like if you make
Speaker 1: those choices and you put everything you have into you know,
Speaker 1: doing those you're just giving yourself the best chance to
Speaker 1: a few different things happen. One you stop being so
Speaker 1: results oriented. You become really focused on doing the work.
Speaker 1: If you're there every day. That doesn't mean late at night,
Speaker 1: you know, in the afternoon walking around you don't daydream.
Speaker 1: We all daydream, We all sort of. I think it's
Speaker 1: a healthy thing to visualize and think about, you know what,
Speaker 1: what can what can happen positively, But you take so
Speaker 1: much of the fear and insecurity away by by doing
Speaker 1: it and every day and and so I just found
Speaker 1: that because I was I mean one thing I didn't say.
Speaker 1: But why it took me song, why I was thirty
Speaker 1: and reached this crisis point is I was a blocked writer.
Speaker 1: I was a blocked creative. I was what Julia Cameron,
Speaker 1: who wrote The Artist Way, calls a shadow artist. I
Speaker 1: worked in the music business. I was an A and
Speaker 1: R guy. I was a producer in the studio with artists,
Speaker 1: and I always felt though I should be doing it,
Speaker 1: but I was terrified to do it. I was terrified
Speaker 1: of not being able to, you know, terrified of not
Speaker 1: being able to uh, you know, capture what was in
Speaker 1: my head and somehow get it out onto the page.
Speaker 1: And so it's never been an easy thing for me.
Speaker 1: Still it's not easy to sit down and do the
Speaker 1: work all the time. But I find if you do
Speaker 1: it on Monday, it's easier, you know, when you get
Speaker 1: there on Tuesday. And so if I can, you know,
Speaker 1: if I can help people understand and make that initial
Speaker 1: will breakthrough of hey, I'm gonna do it, uh every day,
Speaker 1: I think I think it's a very useful thing to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that's a theme that we we seem to keep
Speaker 1: hearing the same sorts of themes on the show as
Speaker 1: we as we talk about this idea of feeding your
Speaker 1: good wolf, and that is one of them that comes
Speaker 1: up a lot, which is just doing the work, whether
Speaker 1: you think about it, whether you feel like it, whether
Speaker 1: that work being your creative work, whether that work be
Speaker 1: the things that you know you need to do to
Speaker 1: take care of yourself, doing that work. And then the
Speaker 1: other one that you mentioned there that I think is
Speaker 1: so important is the idea of momentum. If you get moving,
Speaker 1: it's it's so much easier to keep moving and getting
Speaker 1: started from a dead stop is really challenging. It's true.
Speaker 1: I mean that's something that I took from uh. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you've if you've watched my videos or um you
Speaker 1: know the six second screen running things are read in
Speaker 1: my blog, you'll you'll know that I UM, I'm really
Speaker 1: not somebody who believes in in the idea of gurus
Speaker 1: or who believes that are some authority that can you
Speaker 1: need to give you permission. But I will say from
Speaker 1: me UM, when I was around that age, I read
Speaker 1: um Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins, and I found,
Speaker 1: uh that a lot of stuff Tony talked about about,
Speaker 1: you know, making a decision and then taking action, and
Speaker 1: then taking action every day. It was exactly what I
Speaker 1: needed to hear. And it's all about creating that kind
Speaker 1: of positive momentum for yourself. You know, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that you're going to succeed, right, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: you're going to have the particular gift at the thing.
Speaker 1: But when you get in the habit of being able
Speaker 1: to focus and commit um, then when you find that
Speaker 1: thing that marries your passion to your ability, you'll be
Speaker 1: able to manifest it in a way that otherwise you
Speaker 1: might not be able to yeah, exactly, and that I
Speaker 1: like what you said there because that that discipline does
Speaker 1: translate from one thing to the other as you as
Speaker 1: you learn to be more disciplined in one area of
Speaker 1: your life, you can apply it to others. Not to uh,
Speaker 1: not to induce too much stress. But I gotta go
Speaker 1: back to the wolf parable, because that's that's what the
Speaker 1: show is, and I've I've abdicated my duties as host
Speaker 1: at this point. What my what my partner has given
Speaker 1: me the look for so um. The podcast is called
Speaker 1: The One You Feed, and it is based on the
Speaker 1: parable of the two Wolves, where one of them is uh,
Speaker 1: where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and
Speaker 1: he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf and it represents things like
Speaker 1: kindness and love and bravery, and the other is a
Speaker 1: bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and sorrow.
Speaker 1: And the grandson stops and he thinks that he says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed?
Speaker 1: So I am interested in what that means to you
Speaker 1: in your life and in your work that you do well.
Speaker 1: I do think it's it's uh, it's actually a very
Speaker 1: clear parable. I mean that's why when I was kind
Speaker 1: of joking when I said I was stressing about answering it.
Speaker 1: But what I mean is that I think that the
Speaker 1: answers I've heard on on your show are fairly consistent
Speaker 1: in a way. And um, because you're you've chosen to
Speaker 1: mostly interview people who have found a way to thrive
Speaker 1: at something and have found a way to um, you know,
Speaker 1: to feed, to feed the good wolf to the best
Speaker 1: of their ability. You know, in Hollywood where I sometimes work, um,
Speaker 1: the town is trying to feed the other wolf all
Speaker 1: the time. So UM, I mean, I'll tell you the
Speaker 1: practical things I do, right, I think what everyone says
Speaker 1: on your show is true about focusing you know, on
Speaker 1: the work, focusing outer uh you know, keeping me like
Speaker 1: as a creator, not being self indulgent. But I do
Speaker 1: like certain great practical things. I meditate twice a day,
Speaker 1: I practice transidental meditation. UM, I take long walks, I
Speaker 1: journal every day. I spent a lot of time with
Speaker 1: my family. Um. I you know, I do all sorts
Speaker 1: of stuff to keep me, like listening to the good
Speaker 1: voice and to nurture and feed it to the best
Speaker 1: of my ability. Um. And so that's you know what
Speaker 1: what that means to me. I mean, I think becoming
Speaker 1: a parent, if you are a person who has a
Speaker 1: heart at all, I mean my my my wife and
Speaker 1: my two kids are truly the focus of my existence.
Speaker 1: And you know that immediately makes you sort of like
Speaker 1: outer directed and makes you feed the good wolf because
Speaker 1: you have these examples in front of you, these uh,
Speaker 1: these you know, blank slates who are going to learn
Speaker 1: everything from what and you do and how you do it.
Speaker 1: And so you know, to me, it's simple that I
Speaker 1: would just say to me, it's a it's been a
Speaker 1: simple thing, um, you know, to try to to try
Speaker 1: my best to be to be good. You know, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is simple. But as someone once said, it's there's
Speaker 1: a big difference between knowing something and doing something. I
Speaker 1: do think it's true. By the way, I think the
Speaker 1: parable is true, and you can see examples of it everywhere. Um.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I think all of us do
Speaker 1: feed the other wall from time to time, right, I
Speaker 1: mean we all. I think it'd be a lie to
Speaker 1: say that you never do anything out of a less
Speaker 1: than noble intention. Um, you know, and when you know
Speaker 1: you do what I do for a living. Um, and
Speaker 1: from you know, uh you I think it's important to
Speaker 1: stay just aware of why you do it, what you're
Speaker 1: trying to connect to uh. And I think if you
Speaker 1: do that, it enables you to to tune down those
Speaker 1: other instincts or ideas. I agree, and that's a large
Speaker 1: part of the reason for doing the show was these ideas.
Speaker 1: There's nothing ground by breaking a revolutionary in them. It's
Speaker 1: remembering to do it consistently and remembering to go back
Speaker 1: to those things that I struggle with. It's easy to
Speaker 1: get carried away with with things that don't serve us
Speaker 1: very well, and I need the reminder. It's it's amazing
Speaker 1: to me that I do as many times as I've
Speaker 1: learned it, but that seems to be my default pattern. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: we all what do you do? Do you what kind
Speaker 1: of practice do you like? Do you meditate? Do you walk?
Speaker 1: Do you run? How do you how do you handle it? Yeah? Um,
Speaker 1: actually I am. I am in the midst of the
Speaker 1: best best I've ever been at meditating. I've been an
Speaker 1: on and off meditator for for years, and I seem
Speaker 1: to be in the middle of a really good everyday streak,
Speaker 1: which I've never been able to do consistently. So that's
Speaker 1: a that's a big one. I think that UM exercises
Speaker 1: another big one for me. It makes it makes a
Speaker 1: dramatic difference in my in my mental state. I used
Speaker 1: to do it, I think because I cared about how
Speaker 1: I looked, and now it's far more about I care
Speaker 1: about how I feel, and exercises one are the best
Speaker 1: ways to do that. I mean. The intention behind that
Speaker 1: is a great sort of illustration of the idea. Right,
Speaker 1: It's that you're doing the same thing, but the reason
Speaker 1: for doing it completely changes in a way, which wolf
Speaker 1: you're feeding. Now there's anything wrong about trying to look good,
Speaker 1: But I mean, that's I think a really great answer.
Speaker 1: Oh the other things that I do, you know, I
Speaker 1: I try to surround myself with like um art broadly
Speaker 1: defined art that moves me. So I try to listen
Speaker 1: to and I listen to great music. I listen to
Speaker 1: podcast that really uh in some way I have the
Speaker 1: capacity to move or engage me. I'm always reading. This year,
Speaker 1: I made a big promise to myself to read more fiction.
Speaker 1: I grew up fiction was like a central part of
Speaker 1: my life. And then as you get a little bit
Speaker 1: older and you right for living, sometimes it's easier to
Speaker 1: read nonfiction. It engages you in a different way. And
Speaker 1: I really committed my one year's resolution. I don't believe
Speaker 1: in them, but the one that I sort of promise
Speaker 1: I made was to try to read at least one
Speaker 1: really good book of fiction every month, So to read
Speaker 1: twelve books this year, um not nonfiction. And I can
Speaker 1: tell you already that's having a huge ramifications for me
Speaker 1: in a positive way. Yeah, that's a great idea. I've
Speaker 1: been reflecting on that that I used to read fiction
Speaker 1: so much and got a lot out of it, and
Speaker 1: over the last several years that's everything I read is
Speaker 1: is nonfiction of some sort for various different reasons. And
Speaker 1: I've realized that I missed that just reading a book
Speaker 1: of fiction, that that is good and that illuminates, um
Speaker 1: the human condition in a little bit different way than
Speaker 1: than I would normally think about it or see it.
Speaker 1: Have either of you guys ever read this book called
Speaker 1: City of Thieves by David Benioff. I haven't. He's uh.
Speaker 1: He and his partner Dan Wisse are the guys who
Speaker 1: created right Um Game of Throne, but Benny Off's novel
Speaker 1: Um is incredible books set in Russia during the war,
Speaker 1: and um, it's really I gotta say it's it's uh.
Speaker 1: It speaks to your themes in an incredibly beautiful way,
Speaker 1: and uh uh. I've never recommended the book to anyone
Speaker 1: who didn't make it a point to thank me and
Speaker 1: then send it to ten people. So that's my recommendation
Speaker 1: of a book for you guys and for the people
Speaker 1: listening City at Thieves. David benning Off excellent, thank me,
Speaker 1: We'll we'll put it on the list. I wanted to
Speaker 1: circle back to something that you talked about there when
Speaker 1: when we were describing when we were discussing the Wolf
Speaker 1: Parable and you talked about that it's very easy when
Speaker 1: you have a family to sort of give you that
Speaker 1: outer direction and do all that. But I've also read
Speaker 1: a blog post that you have and I think this
Speaker 1: is a paradox. It's difficult to balance, which is why
Speaker 1: I want to talk more about it. You talk about
Speaker 1: how finding time to do your art is really important,
Speaker 1: and how sometimes that's initially when you jump onto a
Speaker 1: creative project seen as being selfish, and you had a
Speaker 1: slightly different view of it than it being selfish, and
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could walk us through that. Sure. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm so lucky. My wife is a novelist and um
Speaker 1: a great novelist named Amy Compleman, and her books you
Speaker 1: should get to on Amazon. They're dark, but really powerful
Speaker 1: and worth your time. But when I Amy was constantly
Speaker 1: encouraging me to do this, and I mean we've been married,
Speaker 1: uh like twenty two years, and so we were newly pretty,
Speaker 1: you know, not so newly married a couple of years
Speaker 1: when I said, hey, I'm really thinking I'm gonna do this,
Speaker 1: and she kind of said finally, you know, and she
Speaker 1: cleared out this storage space underneath our apartment, really just
Speaker 1: a storage space like a slop sync in it, and
Speaker 1: uh said, this is where your This is your office
Speaker 1: to write this in before you go to work. And
Speaker 1: Dave came over every day and we worked and this
Speaker 1: I can't even I mean as a picture somewhere. It
Speaker 1: is really just the last place you would think would
Speaker 1: be your salvation, but it really he became this incredible
Speaker 1: oasis for us to do this work. And so what
Speaker 1: I what I say in that blog post which is
Speaker 1: up at Brian Hopperman dot com. Is that is that
Speaker 1: when you're somebody who has it in you, this burning
Speaker 1: secret desire to do some kind of creative work, if
Speaker 1: you don't, you turn toxic. And that in fact, that
Speaker 1: toxicity UM is not just damaging to you, but it's
Speaker 1: damaging to everybody around you. And so that even if
Speaker 1: your kids, your family don't, they don't know what the
Speaker 1: reason is, you start to turn. And so by doing
Speaker 1: the by doing the creative work, the good thing, whether
Speaker 1: that's um, you know, running a marathon, whatever your thing is, UM,
Speaker 1: if it it gets rid of it's the one thing
Speaker 1: that kind of cleanses that toxicity. So then the time
Speaker 1: that you have to be around everybody, you're not secretly
Speaker 1: wishing that you were doing your creative thing. But you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't face that resistance from the people closest to me.
Speaker 1: I only was rewarded for it. But that's because I,
Speaker 1: you know, made this incredibly lucky decision when you're when
Speaker 1: you get married young, I was, I think it's so
Speaker 1: much luck to just happen to choose the right person UM,
Speaker 1: and I made an incredibly good choice. And so I've
Speaker 1: only had ever support for that but I have seen
Speaker 1: how people around creative people react and the way it's
Speaker 1: not just skepticism. What it is is it's triggering something
Speaker 1: in them very often too, which is you know when
Speaker 1: you finally start to do it, you see that that
Speaker 1: people will it will scare them because they're afraid and
Speaker 1: you're kind of calling them out, even if you don't
Speaker 1: mean to call them out. That's why it can be
Speaker 1: challenging to do, but it's it's worth it, you know.
Speaker 1: Being an example, I can't tell you how many people,
Speaker 1: once Dave I wrote our first screenplay and sold it,
Speaker 1: how many people I know suddenly decided they could go
Speaker 1: do it and tried to do it. Um. So I
Speaker 1: guess that's why that's what I'm talking about in that
Speaker 1: in that blog post. Does that make sense? So it
Speaker 1: makes it makes total sense that that toxicity and resentment.
Speaker 1: Really it is very easy to creep into into life
Speaker 1: if you're not, at least for me, if I'm not
Speaker 1: doing some of the things that that are important to me.
Speaker 1: Speaking of creative outlets, you recently launched a new podcast
Speaker 1: called The Moment with Brian Koppelman, which is is excellent.
Speaker 1: You've had great guests so far and I wanted to
Speaker 1: turn it on you. I wanted to ask you. The
Speaker 1: podcast is about seminal moments in people's lives where sort
Speaker 1: of everything hung in the balance and the direction they
Speaker 1: chose to go was really really critical. And so I'd
Speaker 1: like to ask you what the moment was or a
Speaker 1: moment for you that you wanted to discuss that would
Speaker 1: be on your podcast. Well, it's a great question. Um,
Speaker 1: it's harder for me to say. You know, one of
Speaker 1: the things I do on the moment is I kind
Speaker 1: of guess at it what I think, because I think
Speaker 1: it's it's difficult. You know, there are there are various
Speaker 1: inflection points in your life as you look back and
Speaker 1: where things could go one or another. I mean clearly
Speaker 1: you know, deciding to write Rounders was one. I mean
Speaker 1: there's no bigger one than the moment i'm I met
Speaker 1: my wife, you know, or when our our son was born. Um.
Speaker 1: I do try to look at like so I guess
Speaker 1: moments in people's careers. So if we're just talking about
Speaker 1: sort of a professional you know, a moment in in
Speaker 1: in my career. One I'll tell you one, um, is
Speaker 1: when I was writing Solitary Man who is a movie
Speaker 1: that Dave and I directed and that I wrote. UM.
Speaker 1: It took me like four years to write it, and
Speaker 1: UM it was the only movie that I wrote by myself,
Speaker 1: and it was very important and personal idea that I had.
Speaker 1: And I was really stuck. I was stuck. I was
Speaker 1: like sixty pages in and all of the old fears
Speaker 1: resurfaced and I was really blocked. We were working on
Speaker 1: Ocean's thirteen at the time, and UM, so everything was
Speaker 1: going really well, but I had this story. I couldn't
Speaker 1: find a way to to to break through. And I
Speaker 1: realized I had stopped doing Morning Pages around then, which
Speaker 1: is journaling every day and UM, and then in through
Speaker 1: journaling and and through UH therapy too, like, I realized
Speaker 1: that I still part of me felt like I didn't
Speaker 1: I didn't deserve to be doing this. I wasn't somebody
Speaker 1: who um was an art you know, truly an artist
Speaker 1: enough to try to write something like this. And had
Speaker 1: I had I allowed it to wither, UM, something really
Speaker 1: crucial would have been damaged. And so what I finally did,
Speaker 1: the thing that finally broke through it is I started
Speaker 1: doing stand up comedy. I was forty years old. I
Speaker 1: had always wanted to do stand up and as through
Speaker 1: the journaling and realizing that I was blocked, I realized
Speaker 1: that I had never chased the thing that was the
Speaker 1: scariest to me, which was doing stand up and uh
Speaker 1: and I just said screw it, and I started going
Speaker 1: to open mics and uh, you know, I was somebody
Speaker 1: who had already made five movies or something. I had
Speaker 1: an entire show business career. And it was humiliating in
Speaker 1: the beginning, because you know, your bomb in the beginning,
Speaker 1: and uh. And I went out there and I just
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I was sweating through my shirt
Speaker 1: like Albert Brooks and broadcast news and uh. And then
Speaker 1: slowly it's stopped being you know, the fear turned to
Speaker 1: this really fun fear, this fun, exciting, like bungee cord
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Well, he knows what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: this fun bungee cord thing. And uh. And through doing it,
Speaker 1: I did it for a year and a half, like
Speaker 1: four nights a week. I went out in the clubs
Speaker 1: and I ended up passing at a club and getting
Speaker 1: ten good minutes together. And through doing that, somehow, through
Speaker 1: breaking through that fear, um through like literally connecting with
Speaker 1: an audience and making them laugh, and then you know,
Speaker 1: bombing the next night, and then the next night making
Speaker 1: people laugh. Uh. I got to a place where I
Speaker 1: created a new kind of safety net for myself and
Speaker 1: I was somehow able to figure out how to finish
Speaker 1: writing that that script, you know, we wrote. I wrote
Speaker 1: that script Dave and I. Within within a very short time,
Speaker 1: we were able to cast Michael Douglas in it. We
Speaker 1: have found producers who were able to get the money
Speaker 1: together to make it, and that movie ended up on
Speaker 1: Roger Ebert's here Best List on the New York Times
Speaker 1: Year and Best List. It's a small little art movie,
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you it, it really was for for
Speaker 1: me and for us like an artistic breakthrough. And and
Speaker 1: and I can't tell you how easy it would have
Speaker 1: been for it to for me not to write it.
Speaker 1: All I was doing was not writing it. And I
Speaker 1: took like this drastic action in a way, and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of changed everything. Do you think that the you
Speaker 1: would have been writing everything you've written up to that
Speaker 1: point had been with your partner. Do you think that
Speaker 1: you felt like by yourself that there was something different
Speaker 1: and that was what stand up partially was was you
Speaker 1: there was nobody out there to catch you. Sure, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's really smart. Um. Yeah, Dave's an incredible partner,
Speaker 1: a great writer, an incredible steady presence. Um. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew that the two of us were writing these
Speaker 1: things together. But but sure it was yes writing it
Speaker 1: alone and saying like, I can really do this thing
Speaker 1: by myself. I can really be a creative force. I
Speaker 1: knew we would direct the movie together, which is what
Speaker 1: I wanted. We're really partners for life and this creative endeavor. Um.
Speaker 1: But sure, and and I'm sure that the idea of
Speaker 1: just being there and like these people staring at me
Speaker 1: and having to having to deal with the rejection in
Speaker 1: that way, it was really the gift of it, wasn't
Speaker 1: you know? Making him laugh was super fun. But the
Speaker 1: gift of it was learning that I could bomb and
Speaker 1: get up the next morning and be fine. That is
Speaker 1: a it's a pretty profound lesson. Uh. Speaking of stand
Speaker 1: up comics, you have a UM, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I would call it, uh an obsession, but you you
Speaker 1: you're very interested in Mark Marin, and you recently interviewed
Speaker 1: him on your podcast, and you you did a great job.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what it is about him that you are
Speaker 1: you are drawn so strongly to and even to turn
Speaker 1: it more on you, what it is that's in you
Speaker 1: that responds to him so strongly Because we kind of
Speaker 1: know what he's about, what is it in you that's
Speaker 1: reacting to him? I don't. I'm really obsessed with the
Speaker 1: UTF more than I am with Mark. I think that
Speaker 1: WTF is an incredible creation. Um and especially because I
Speaker 1: think Mark is so, it can be challenging to people.
Speaker 1: You know, we talked about on the episode of the
Speaker 1: Moment the fact that for a long time in his
Speaker 1: career he didn't care about he would get up on
Speaker 1: a comedy stage and not care about making them laugh.
Speaker 1: In fact, he wanted to push them away. And um,
Speaker 1: but somehow on WTF he was And I wrote about
Speaker 1: this on grant Land, you know, I wrote this thing
Speaker 1: about when he had Jim Brewer on the show, and that,
Speaker 1: to me is the best articulation of my thoughts. I mean,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time writing that article on
Speaker 1: grant Land because I was trying to figure it out
Speaker 1: for myself. I was trying to understand what is it
Speaker 1: about w t F and I think I knew I
Speaker 1: was gonna try to this podcast, and I was trying
Speaker 1: to see, you know. And I think it's marked bravery really,
Speaker 1: the fact that he's he's willing to to not look good,
Speaker 1: He's willing to accept and in fact, to display his
Speaker 1: own ugliness in order to connect with the person sitting
Speaker 1: across from him. And and I think he got there
Speaker 1: in a really difficult way. Um, I don't think it
Speaker 1: was an easy ride for him. But I'm not I
Speaker 1: gotta say, I'm um, I'm no more. I lead always
Speaker 1: with my curiosity. That's been like the cornerstone of everything
Speaker 1: good I've ever done creatively, you know, whether it was
Speaker 1: when I was young and I had this incredible good
Speaker 1: fortune to discover the singer songwriter Tracy Chapman and make
Speaker 1: her first album, you know, or whether it was walking
Speaker 1: into that poker club and wanted to know what made
Speaker 1: those people think. So the way that Mark is able
Speaker 1: to engage with people and really dive down deep into
Speaker 1: sort of what it means to be two different individuals
Speaker 1: trying to form some relationship and grab it with that
Speaker 1: is just really compelling. But I mean, I'm as interested
Speaker 1: in the you know, public radio show Snap Judgment, as
Speaker 1: I am in w T f UM and uh, there
Speaker 1: were you know, I listened to a lot of different podcasts,
Speaker 1: and but yes, I I'm fascinated by Mark but but honestly,
Speaker 1: no more than I'm fascinated by Mario Batali, who was
Speaker 1: my second guest, or Chuck Closterman, who's uh I interviewed
Speaker 1: and who's at the episode is up today. My rule
Speaker 1: for my podcast is I'm only interviewing people about whom
Speaker 1: I'm truly curious. I won't just book people for the
Speaker 1: for the sake of it ever. Yep, And and I'm
Speaker 1: looking forward to here in the interview with Chuck, I
Speaker 1: think that'll be that'll be a great one. And I
Speaker 1: think you're you're doing um. The thing I like about
Speaker 1: your podcast is you are digging with people, uh, really
Speaker 1: trying to to sort of get to the next level
Speaker 1: with them, and I think you've you've been doing a
Speaker 1: great job. I really enjoy the show. Oh thank you, well,
Speaker 1: that thanks That's I mean the idea of the moment
Speaker 1: of really trying to get in to what makes them
Speaker 1: who they are. I mean, in a similar way to
Speaker 1: what you guys are after you know, I'm after when
Speaker 1: I talk to these people, you know, people who do
Speaker 1: great things, they process differently. They are able to take
Speaker 1: the information in that maybe would make the rest of
Speaker 1: us feel defeated, and there's somehow able to put it
Speaker 1: through a filter that makes them empowered. And I'm I'm
Speaker 1: interested in figuring that out with people. Whether it's in
Speaker 1: great moments where a lot of us would go like,
Speaker 1: you know, Wiley Coyote, Oh no, there's no ground under me,
Speaker 1: uh and then fall, or whether it's in a bad
Speaker 1: you know, a bad moment where we would say, well,
Speaker 1: I better just throw in the towel. Somehow, people who
Speaker 1: accomplish great things, UM, are able to you know, they're
Speaker 1: able to process differently. Yep. So one other question I
Speaker 1: wanted to and maybe we can we can wrap up
Speaker 1: with this, is I want to talk with you. We've
Speaker 1: exchanged some some things on Twitter and different things. I
Speaker 1: think we have a very very similar musical taste. I
Speaker 1: think we probably grew up at the same time listening
Speaker 1: to the same bands. UM, I'm really curious what you are,
Speaker 1: what sort of newer music that's getting made today? Are
Speaker 1: you really interested in? UM? Well, great, I love talking
Speaker 1: about this this could be its own podcast. Well you
Speaker 1: know that, I'm I mean, I just think Jason Ismael
Speaker 1: made the album of the last whatever it is five years. Um,
Speaker 1: I think that it's insane. I think the Southeastern is
Speaker 1: every single song it's just a knock. There's not a
Speaker 1: you know, and not just incredible melodies and just be
Speaker 1: you know, stunningly beautiful lyrics. Uh. So I mean to me,
Speaker 1: his album just stands above pretty much everything else. I
Speaker 1: love The Hold Steady, probably my favorite current rock band. Um.
Speaker 1: I think the combination of Tad Cubler and uh Craig
Speaker 1: Fan is really amazing. I really dig the Sun Kill
Speaker 1: Moon album. I think it's really strong record and if
Speaker 1: you guys have heard it, I've heard it come songs
Speaker 1: off of it. I like that. Um, all right now
Speaker 1: you're making me look right now what I've been listening
Speaker 1: to today. But uh, you know, as I said on Twitter,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you saw the fact that r M doesn't
Speaker 1: exist anymore as a constant horrible disappointment to me. Um,
Speaker 1: they're you know, my favorite band of all time. Uh
Speaker 1: probably Dylan Louid, r E. M. Springsteen are the things
Speaker 1: that I just go back to over and over again.
Speaker 1: Those are pretty solid, solid choices. Uh, somebody I've really
Speaker 1: been into a lot the last few years, and we
Speaker 1: just interviewed him last week. I'm not sure when the
Speaker 1: episode will come out, and I'm not sure if you're
Speaker 1: familiar with his work. Is Frank Turner. He's no, I
Speaker 1: don't know his I don't know. He's an English folk
Speaker 1: rock singer who I'm absolutely uh in love with. I
Speaker 1: think it's I think he's making some of the best
Speaker 1: music around today. So it's based on our shared musical taste.
Speaker 1: I think that might be one you like. I'll check
Speaker 1: that out for sure. I made a playlist the other
Speaker 1: day of artists that I want to get to know
Speaker 1: better because I heard something and but I don't know
Speaker 1: the stuff well enough. So I had Kurt Kurt Vile
Speaker 1: is on there. And Uh, there's that guy Robert. I
Speaker 1: don't know his last name right now. I'm gonna just
Speaker 1: look really quickly and tell you guys who's writes beautiful songs.
Speaker 1: And someone said to me, oh, you love Jason Isbell.
Speaker 1: You you got to hear this guy, and uh, and
Speaker 1: I got the album and I thought, yeah, that guy's
Speaker 1: to rip it to. I also love this songwriter. Do
Speaker 1: you ever hear this? If you like is Bell, do
Speaker 1: you know the songwriter named Slade Cleaves from Austin, Texas.
Speaker 1: I have heard, I know the name, but I don't
Speaker 1: know that I've heard the music. Yeah, he's great. He
Speaker 1: has an album called Wishbone that's really special, worth your time.
Speaker 1: He's he's a great singer songwriter too. Um So, Yeah,
Speaker 1: those are some of the things that I'm that I'm
Speaker 1: digging now. Yeah, music is a definite way to feed
Speaker 1: the good wolf. For me. It's one of the big
Speaker 1: ones that keeps me moving. Me too, man, me too.
Speaker 1: And I gotta say I see it in the house.
Speaker 1: My daughter loves Taylor Swift, and I completely understand it.
Speaker 1: I think because Taylor is so popular, it's easy to
Speaker 1: write her off. But talk about someone who encourages her
Speaker 1: audience to feed the good wolf and who's willing to
Speaker 1: be honest and true in her work. I really think
Speaker 1: she is. And I think it's a really empowering thing
Speaker 1: for particularly young you know, young women and girls. And
Speaker 1: I gotta say her music plays in my house so
Speaker 1: much that I probably know her music better than uh,
Speaker 1: you know, almost anybody else's music. Somehow that's great. I mean,
Speaker 1: my I've got I've got teenage boys, and and I'm
Speaker 1: always interested in in music that is, to some degree,
Speaker 1: you know, decent role model for them. I know that
Speaker 1: that might be asking a lot in certain cases, but
Speaker 1: that's some of the music today. I guess at any
Speaker 1: point is so uh negative that that I hope that
Speaker 1: you know, I always how today? How old are they?
Speaker 1: I have a son of the steps and they're both
Speaker 1: fift freshman in high school. Have they heard have you
Speaker 1: heard Kasey Musgraves, that woman who sings She's got that song,
Speaker 1: follow Your Love? That song? Yeah, that's a great one,
Speaker 1: I think. And my daughter turned me onto that one,
Speaker 1: and it's great. Oh. The guy whose name I was
Speaker 1: trying to think of before is Robert Ellis. I don't
Speaker 1: even think I've ever heard of him. Yeah. So this
Speaker 1: friend of mine who really knows music, this guy, Scott Rosenberger,
Speaker 1: actually wrote the movie Beautiful Girls and a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of other movies. He's a music freak. And he was like,
Speaker 1: if you love his bell, check out Robert Ellis. I'm
Speaker 1: only listened to the album a few times, but he's right,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a beautiful, beautiful record. Excellent. Well, I
Speaker 1: will will certainly check that out. Well. I could probably
Speaker 1: have this conversation all night, but we are going to
Speaker 1: be disciplined and stick to our roughly half hour podcast.
Speaker 1: It's fun talking to Yeah, thanks Brian, I really enjoyed
Speaker 1: a good luck with the with the show and whatever
Speaker 1: movie you've got coming out next. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Nice talk all right, thanks bite. You can find out
Speaker 1: more about this podcast and Brian Koppelman at one you
Speaker 1: feed dot net slash Brian Koppelman