1
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,920
Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's

3
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:21,880
Speaker 2: chalk and it's just us streaming along merrily on our way, right, yeah,

4
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 2: how it goes. This is off to a terrible, terrible start.

5
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 2: Life is but a dream? Right, Yeah, but aren't they

6
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:30,480
Speaker 2: talking about a stream.

7
00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 3: Merrily, merrily and merrily ringer on the rosies pocket little No.

8
00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,960
Speaker 2: No, that's not it. That's about like the Black Death

9
00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:39,479
Speaker 2: or something.

10
00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's just move on.

11
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,639
Speaker 2: Okay. So we're talking today about streaming music. That's why

12
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 2: I made that joke. I should make scare quotes for joke.

13
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 2: We're talking about streaming music, the history of it, and

14
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 2: I love this, Chuck, this is a great idea of yours.

15
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,640
Speaker 2: Was this your idea? Listeners suggested idea.

16
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,560
Speaker 3: No, this is just me. I was maybe waxing philosophic

17
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,200
Speaker 3: about I'm wearing with somebody, and then I was like,

18
00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:03,840
Speaker 3: that would be kind of a fun episode.

19
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,480
Speaker 2: Well, you were right. And one of the things I

20
00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 2: love about this is this is history, like world changing

21
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: history that we lived through and not like as kids,

22
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,760
Speaker 2: like this happened very much in like our adult lives.

23
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,119
Speaker 3: You know, Oh, yeah, for sure, just a seismic shift

24
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,560
Speaker 3: in how music was released and consumed and the finances

25
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 3: around it. And yeah, I thought it was super fascinating

26
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 3: that there was a point in history not so long

27
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,480
Speaker 3: ago where people were spending a lot of money comparatively

28
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,240
Speaker 3: on buying CDs and physical media until they just said,

29
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,120
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm going to buy music anymore. I

30
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,280
Speaker 3: want it. I want it for free, like screw all

31
00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,280
Speaker 3: those musicians and trying to make a living.

32
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. And it's not so the musicians were

33
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 2: caught in the middle. It was the labels that were

34
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,920
Speaker 2: the greedy fat cats that pushed it too far because

35
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,920
Speaker 2: it didn't matter whether it was the clunkiest album or

36
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 2: the best that Richard Marx had to offer, both ends

37
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 2: of the spectrum. You were paying nineteen ninety nine for

38
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,040
Speaker 2: that thing, whether you liked it or not.

39
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:13,240
Speaker 3: Was that how much they were?

40
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,480
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, I don't remember being that much. Yeah, they

41
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,000
Speaker 2: definitely were. I think they got down toward the end

42
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 2: in maybe the twelve ninety nine fifteen dollars range, that's

43
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 2: what I remember. They were very much nineteen ninety nine.

44
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 2: For a while, you paid it was like twenty bucks

45
00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,359
Speaker 2: of CD like that was a birthday present, right there?

46
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,440
Speaker 3: One CD YAO who initially fought the big fight and

47
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 3: refused to release a record unless it was I can't

48
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,079
Speaker 3: remember how much it was, but it was quite a

49
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 3: bit less.

50
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,920
Speaker 2: Who Tom Petty baby Man, what a cool dude.

51
00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:46,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, RP.

52
00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 2: So, like you said, people just kind of got tired

53
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 2: of overpaying. But at the same time, this was a

54
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 2: time where frequently albums were released where no one, even

55
00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,839
Speaker 2: the band probably thought that more than one or two

56
00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 2: songs were worth The rest were just crud. What you

57
00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,359
Speaker 2: didn't get burned time and time again buying an album

58
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,400
Speaker 2: and being like, I only like the two songs I

59
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 2: heard on the radio. Everything else on this album is terrible.

60
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,839
Speaker 3: No, I was a little different. I wasn't a singles guy.

61
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,880
Speaker 3: I never bought a singles that was always an album guy, right,

62
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,200
Speaker 3: And so I would buy albums that were good and

63
00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:24,880
Speaker 3: not albums that had one good song.

64
00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 2: But if that's that's what I'm saying, you didn't know

65
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 2: how good or bad the other songs were until you

66
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,120
Speaker 2: got the album because you only had heard the one

67
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,520
Speaker 2: good song on the radio. So you would hope, hope,

68
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,480
Speaker 2: hope that the rest of the album was as good

69
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 2: as the song on the radio, and it never was.

70
00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 2: There was like an avalanche of difference between the quality

71
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 2: of how good the radio song was and how bad

72
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,560
Speaker 2: all the other songs on the album would be. That

73
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 2: was my experience, at least.

74
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't follow as prey to it, I think

75
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 3: because and I'm not like some snob or anything, but

76
00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 3: most of the albums that I would actually invest in

77
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 3: buying because you know, I had a limited amount of money,

78
00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 3: we're like good, really great bands.

79
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,760
Speaker 2: Okay, whatever, let's move on. I think we've missed one

80
00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,200
Speaker 2: of our famous stumbling blocks. I'll stick with my guns,

81
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:12,920
Speaker 2: you stick with yours.

82
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 3: Well, I just didn't have the kind of dough to

83
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 3: be like, Ooh, I like that song, I'll get that album.

84
00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,880
Speaker 3: I like had to really know it was awesome.

85
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,839
Speaker 2: I didn't either, and that's why I hated it so

86
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 2: much that I'm still upset about it today. Maybe I

87
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 2: was better at it, Yes you were. I think that's

88
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 2: ultimately the point you're driving. I'm glad you just came

89
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:30,360
Speaker 2: out and say it.

90
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 3: So everything changed from the big Heyday leading up to

91
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 3: the nineteen nineties into the two thousand's when a teenager

92
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:47,599
Speaker 3: from Massachusetts, a hacker named Sean Fanning, got together with

93
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,440
Speaker 3: a finance partner named Sean Parker, who would later go

94
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 3: on to be the very famously the first president of Facebook,

95
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 3: got together and said, Hey, we got this new thing.

96
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 3: It's a file software. It's a peer to peer thing,

97
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 3: so you can get music for free, basically by trading

98
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 3: it with your friends. And initially it was just I

99
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 3: believe Sean Fanning was like, I just want to trade

100
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,440
Speaker 3: music with my friends who live on the other side

101
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,160
Speaker 3: of the country. Then they realized they could get investors

102
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,400
Speaker 3: make it into a real business, and that was Napster.

103
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. And one of the other things that was required

104
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,120
Speaker 2: for this to work were CD ripping program software that

105
00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,719
Speaker 2: came out around the same time, where you could put

106
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,800
Speaker 2: in a factory made, label produced CD and rip all

107
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 2: the music from it and turn it into MP three's.

108
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,440
Speaker 2: As you did that time and time again, your MP

109
00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,960
Speaker 2: three collection would build up, and when you installed Napster,

110
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,359
Speaker 2: it would find all those MP three's and then you

111
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,679
Speaker 2: could trade them with other people like you were saying,

112
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,960
Speaker 2: And it was such a hit, Chuck, that within two years.

113
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 2: We'll talk about Napster shutting down. It only lived for

114
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,839
Speaker 2: two years. Originally, by the end of two years it

115
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 2: had something like fifty seven million users in.

116
00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 3: Two years, Yeah, I saw eighty million.

117
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 2: That's I believe it. That it was sensational and the

118
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,520
Speaker 2: idea that it was a teenager that not only introduced

119
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 2: this to the world but completely changed the way that

120
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 2: music is made is just satisfying but also just mind

121
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,880
Speaker 2: boggling because things have been done a certain way for

122
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 2: so long and the labels were so in control. The

123
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 2: idea of this guy coming along, it's like the original disruption.

124
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, at the peak of Napster there were twenty seven

125
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:39,480
Speaker 3: billion transfers per month song transfers, So it's just incredible.

126
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 3: And this is another great stat that LVIA found at

127
00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,960
Speaker 3: one point supposedly sixty one percent of all traffic on

128
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 3: college servers were people sharing MP three's.

129
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,919
Speaker 2: Totally by that too, man. So, like we said, musicians

130
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,600
Speaker 2: mostly got caught in the middle of this. It was

131
00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,800
Speaker 2: the labels that were really taking the hit, and some

132
00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,800
Speaker 2: musicians are like, this is great, this is a great

133
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 2: way to spread music and awareness. Chuck d was very

134
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,360
Speaker 2: famous a proponent of it early on, but there were

135
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,960
Speaker 2: also the exact opposite. Some artists were like, to heck

136
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 2: with that. I think it was a famous quote from

137
00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:20,000
Speaker 2: Doctor dre And he ended up joining Metallica, A and

138
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,040
Speaker 2: M Records, the RIAA and started filing suits against Napster,

139
00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,320
Speaker 2: and some of them, including the RIAA and Doctor Drake,

140
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 2: started suing Napster users, that is, their fans for pirting

141
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,800
Speaker 2: their music, like suing them directly personally individually.

142
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, they went after them under the Rico Act, the

143
00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:47,520
Speaker 3: Racketeering Act. Metallica was specifically seeking ten million bucks. And

144
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,720
Speaker 3: what they didn't realize was this was, you know, this

145
00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,080
Speaker 3: was an online thing, so you could get another software

146
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,280
Speaker 3: program like if you know. What they ended up doing

147
00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 3: was they ended up getting a list of more than

148
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,520
Speaker 3: three hundred thousand in it's like three hundred and thirty

149
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:07,680
Speaker 3: something thousand who had shared Metallica's music and got Napster

150
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,680
Speaker 3: to ban them. And what they didn't realize was that

151
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,520
Speaker 3: all they had to do those users was get another

152
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,640
Speaker 3: piece of software to allow them to get into Napster

153
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,640
Speaker 3: under another name. And so it was a pretty quick workaround.

154
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so Metallica got such a bad name for this.

155
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,480
Speaker 2: This is such bad pr for them. And I can't

156
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 2: remember the name of their basis, their original basis or

157
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,680
Speaker 2: there maybe their second basis. He left in protest saying

158
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 2: like this is wrong Newstead, but it was it new

159
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 2: said okay, they they were there's still today people are

160
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 2: like Metallica's who they're fans. They did not. They found

161
00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,880
Speaker 2: the names of their fans and had Napster banned them,

162
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,400
Speaker 2: and there was a screen you would get that said,

163
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,880
Speaker 2: at the request of Metallica, you are not allowed to

164
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 2: access Napster any longer. But they didn't sue any individual fans.

165
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,719
Speaker 2: The ria ir AA did, and so did doctor Dre

166
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,479
Speaker 2: And I read about one twelve year old girl, Brianna Gahara,

167
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:11,040
Speaker 2: who had to pay two thousand dollars because the RIAA

168
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,080
Speaker 2: sued her and she had to pay two grand a

169
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,559
Speaker 2: twelve year old girl. That's what it was like. That's

170
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 2: how upset the labels were at this point.

171
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 3: Well, she probably didn't think about that when she was

172
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,720
Speaker 3: getting two thousand dollars worth of free music.

173
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,560
Speaker 2: Well essentially it's what they were doing. But she still

174
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 2: ended up paying like two dollars a song, which is

175
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,800
Speaker 2: really that's outrageous. Today in twenty twenty four.

176
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's double yeah. At least so one thing this

177
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 3: did was just you know, brought it to the news

178
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,840
Speaker 3: and a lot of people that weren't sort of on

179
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,200
Speaker 3: the on the front edge of that technology, we're like, oh,

180
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 3: wait a minute, there's a site where you can just

181
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 3: go get music traded. So it actually it was sort

182
00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,040
Speaker 3: of like the barbar streisand effect it ended up creating

183
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 3: more users. Napster tried to hang in there. There was

184
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,760
Speaker 3: an attempted acquisition at one point for ninety something million

185
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:04,560
Speaker 3: bucks that a judge shut down for some reason that's

186
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,400
Speaker 3: not worth getting into. But they tried to become like

187
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,400
Speaker 3: a legitimate player. They paid royalties, eventually about twenty six

188
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 3: million dollars of royalties. They tried different models, they tried subscriptions.

189
00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 3: Nothing really worked, I think because that time. By that time,

190
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,360
Speaker 3: there were other like I mentioned LimeWire that was the

191
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 3: one I used. I never used Napster, Kazah, frost Wire,

192
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,400
Speaker 3: these other ones. Competitors came along, and so Napster, while

193
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,240
Speaker 3: like completely changing the game because they were the first ones,

194
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 3: didn't end up being some big huge They couldn't get

195
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,199
Speaker 3: some big acquisition for it.

196
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 2: No, they just like you said changed the game. But

197
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 2: one of the things that also was changed from Napster

198
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,199
Speaker 2: in its brief two years and then its follow up

199
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 2: successors like kaza is the idea that, like, people aren't

200
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 2: going to pay yeah, fifteen or twenty dollars or even

201
00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,680
Speaker 2: twelve dollars for a CD anymore. It's not how we

202
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,719
Speaker 2: want to do it. That's ridiculous for not doing it.

203
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 2: I would rather take my chances at getting sued by

204
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 2: the RIAA and get music for free than pay for

205
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 2: an album that I'm only going to like one song on.

206
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 2: That's what I said. And it was just the everything

207
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,720
Speaker 2: was completely upended. And Apple came along in two thousand

208
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 2: and three and brought massive stability to this huge c change,

209
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,160
Speaker 2: but it didn't go back to the way it was.

210
00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,520
Speaker 2: They said, we're gonna we have a model here that

211
00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,080
Speaker 2: can actually accommodate both in this new kind of environment

212
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,400
Speaker 2: of how music is created and delivered.

213
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,080
Speaker 3: Now, Yeah, I want to jump back a second. I

214
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,719
Speaker 3: wonder if because I think it's a real shame that

215
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,400
Speaker 3: you know, you know, maybe at fifteen dollars is too

216
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,120
Speaker 3: much for a CD considering how cheap they were to produce.

217
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,520
Speaker 3: But I think it's a real shame. People were like,

218
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,320
Speaker 3: I want to pay zero dollars for music now, like

219
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 3: I think it should be free and screw everybody that

220
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,520
Speaker 3: makes a living doing this under if initially, if the

221
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 3: record labels had immediately just gone down to like six '

222
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 3: ninety nine for a CD, if that would have changed

223
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 3: the game.

224
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,880
Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe. I think one of the things

225
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,920
Speaker 2: that did change attitudes like that was a general public

226
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 2: awareness that was spread that the artists were being harmed

227
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 2: by this.

228
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you're taking.

229
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 2: Music did deserve you did deserve to be compensated for

230
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,640
Speaker 2: the music you made, like it shouldn't be free. Year

231
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,160
Speaker 2: So it was kind of like the It was like

232
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,080
Speaker 2: the pendulum of development, you know, but with music instead.

233
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 3: All right, so I agree you mentioned Apple and specifically

234
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,480
Speaker 3: iTunes is what came out in two thousand and three

235
00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,120
Speaker 3: and the iPod and they started selling songs for ninety

236
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 3: nine cents. One thing we didn't mention was that if

237
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,040
Speaker 3: you had a PC and you were on LimeWire or napster, like,

238
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,319
Speaker 3: there was a decent chance you might get a virus.

239
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 3: They were pretty rife with viruses, so you could you

240
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,320
Speaker 3: could avoid you could avoid that danger and you could

241
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 3: pay ninety nine cents. You can get that single song.

242
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,040
Speaker 3: If you're if you're You, if you're Josh, and you

243
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 3: don't want to take a chance on buying a full album,

244
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,320
Speaker 3: you could just get that single Richard Mark song it

245
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,240
Speaker 3: don't it don't mean nothing, and you would be super excited.

246
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,120
Speaker 2: Well that was the thing. Richard Marx is a bad

247
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,720
Speaker 2: example because I think his two major albums both had

248
00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 2: multiple hits on them. So all right, I'm just gonna

249
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,080
Speaker 2: say it. Well, let's go with UTAs Saints. They're a

250
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:32,840
Speaker 2: perfect example from roughly this era. They were I don't

251
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,280
Speaker 2: even know where they were from, maybe British electronic.

252
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,079
Speaker 3: I think I remember that that song, yes, because that

253
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:38,959
Speaker 3: was a.

254
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,280
Speaker 2: Song, right, it's samp something good. It sampled Kate Bush

255
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,720
Speaker 2: and they would say like you toss Saints. Yeah, yes,

256
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 2: that song. So you bought that album. To the album,

257
00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 2: you would just be like.

258
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 3: God, well that's your problem, you know, buy LP.

259
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,960
Speaker 2: I was big time into electronic music at the time,

260
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 2: and people weren't coming out with albums like every week

261
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,600
Speaker 2: that were you know, electronic. It was still very guitar heavy,

262
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 2: so I know you had to work with what you

263
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 2: got and frequently get burned. Sorry Utah Saints if you're

264
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:11,800
Speaker 2: out there listening.

265
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 3: So, overall, statistically, from and this is a pretty staggering

266
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 3: stat from two thousand and one to twenty ten, when

267
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 3: this first started. Over that next decade, physical music sales

268
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,520
Speaker 3: dropped sixty percent all over the world, about fourteen billion

269
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 3: dollars in revenue loss. Digital sales rose about four billion,

270
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,480
Speaker 3: But that left a ten billion dollar annual discrepancy and

271
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:41,880
Speaker 3: what the music business was bringing in.

272
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. If that doesn't get it across, I don't know

273
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 2: what does.

274
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:46,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

275
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 2: So yeah, because at that point it's basically just Richard

276
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,480
Speaker 2: Marx keeping the music labels afloat. The fact that they

277
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 2: had any money was essentially one hundred percent tributable to him.

278
00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 3: Well, you know what they say, It don't mean nothing

279
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 3: until you sign it on the outed line.

280
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 2: That's right, that's what he's talking about. My man.

281
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:06,080
Speaker 3: Should we take a break?

282
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 2: Yes? Okay. So while Napster was like, hey, we're into

283
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 2: file sharing, some other ones were as well. At the

284
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 2: same time, roughly an alternative model was developing, and that

285
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 2: was just streaming, right, So rather than like downloading an

286
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,320
Speaker 2: actual MP three that you would keep on your hard drive,

287
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 2: you could burn onto CD do whatever. This was like,

288
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,160
Speaker 2: there were like music servers. This is this is crazy.

289
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,360
Speaker 2: To bear with me for a second. That would actually

290
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,680
Speaker 2: you would stream the music over the internet through like

291
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 2: a player on your on your computer. Usually had to

292
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,680
Speaker 2: download the player itself. This is before they called them apps,

293
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,840
Speaker 2: and you could sometimes select songs and then other times

294
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 2: it was more just like an f radio station where

295
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 2: they would almost play it plates whatever, random songs that

296
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 2: you had no control over.

297
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 3: Right, well, you did have control in that you could

298
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,320
Speaker 3: skip songs and stuff. You just couldn't pick the songs.

299
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 2: Sometimes though, you could only skip a finite number of

300
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 2: songs before it's like nope, you have to listen to

301
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 2: this CARDI one.

302
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that was the big problem with Launch Media

303
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:21,560
Speaker 3: that they probably could have gotten away with it if

304
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 3: they didn't give you the ability to skip songs, right

305
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 3: because it was a little more like radio. But because

306
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 3: they had that fast forward button, the RIAA got involved

307
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 3: again and was like, we don't like that because one

308
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 3: thing I don't think we mentioned is radio. It was

309
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,320
Speaker 3: a way for people to listen to songs and music

310
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 3: and get turned onto new stuff.

311
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 2: It was a live transmission.

312
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, but what radio also was was a free advertisement

313
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 3: for those bands. So you know, every time a song

314
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 3: gets played on the radio, that's an ad to little

315
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 3: Josh Clark, like, hey, mis Sucker, go out this album

316
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 3: if you like this.

317
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Utah Saints are great.

318
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 3: This is this disrupted everything. The fact that you could

319
00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,199
Speaker 3: skip songs. That's why the IAA got upset because you know,

320
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 3: they're like, well, this is a lot like radio, but

321
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 3: you can't skip songs of the radio. We want people

322
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 3: to hear these songs because they're little ads.

323
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,600
Speaker 2: Right exactly. So that was a big problem. The streaming

324
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,440
Speaker 2: services were as big a problem, maybe not as big,

325
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 2: but pretty close to the same amount of problem as

326
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 2: file sharing services were, too. They weren't like any kind

327
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,879
Speaker 2: of solution as far as the music industry was concerned.

328
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, and those were you know, like Launch Media, who

329
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:42,240
Speaker 3: eventually became Yahoo Music. Those again, though, were just playing.

330
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,119
Speaker 3: There was like a I don't know if it was

331
00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,159
Speaker 3: a real person programming, but it was as if a

332
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,159
Speaker 3: DJ was playing music. The first legit on demand streaming

333
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 3: surface was Rhapsody in two thousand and one, which started

334
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,879
Speaker 3: out as part of listen dot Com, was bought by

335
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,160
Speaker 3: a company called Real Networks, and then eventually, in sort

336
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 3: of an odd twist, it bought Napster and in twenty sixteen,

337
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 3: rhapsoly was rebranded as Napster.

338
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you remember Real Player That was one of

339
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,919
Speaker 2: those that software you had to download to stream music?

340
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,159
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, I remember that.

341
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,479
Speaker 2: I went and looked at old real Player skins and

342
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 2: it's just like, oh my god, those things were so ugly.

343
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,880
Speaker 2: But they I mean, they're super. They look super two

344
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:26,920
Speaker 2: thousand and five.

345
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,920
Speaker 3: Just seeing that little LimeWire lime actually gave me some

346
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 3: feels because I was doing by the way, I was

347
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 3: doing the same thing. I'm not saying, like when I said,

348
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 3: it's a real shame that people just said I want

349
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 3: my music free, like I was doing it too at

350
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:42,640
Speaker 3: the time.

351
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well, I'm glad you said that.

352
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 3: I was part of that, that real shame.

353
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 2: You know.

354
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, great, LimeWire, I can trade music.

355
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 3: But pretty quickly I was I mean, I kept buying

356
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,560
Speaker 3: CDs for a while of the bands I loved, and

357
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,280
Speaker 3: pretty quickly I was like, wait a minute, there's something

358
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 3: about this. It doesn't feel right.

359
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,679
Speaker 2: Hey. One other thing that's occurred to me Chuck Is.

360
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,719
Speaker 2: I'm sure somebody's like, well, yeah, CDs might be like

361
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 2: fifteen dollars a piece, but don't forget Columbia House, where

362
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 2: you get like ten of them for a penny.

363
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 3: I never did that.

364
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 2: You didn't. Did I ever tell you my Columbia House story?

365
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 3: You did, But I think people need to hear it

366
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,120
Speaker 3: if they haven't heard it. Okay, so told me last

367
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 3: week at a Cubs game. Was it just that recent?

368
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,919
Speaker 2: Huh? And I got to work on my memory. I

369
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 2: need some prevag in. So like you would send off

370
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 2: for those of you who don't know, you would send

371
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 2: like literally you tape a penny to a postcard and

372
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 2: send it into Columbia House and you could you could

373
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,679
Speaker 2: check like what albums you wanted them to send you,

374
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,160
Speaker 2: and like magic, they would send you those ten albums

375
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 2: for a penny, But then you were automatically signed up

376
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 2: for their subscription service and they would send you albums

377
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,199
Speaker 2: that you didn't want it like two times the price.

378
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 2: So it really wasn't a good deal unless you could

379
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 2: get out of it with just those first ten albums.

380
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 2: And I did exact factly that because when they sent

381
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 2: me the first first handful of records that I didn't want.

382
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 2: I sent them back with a letter explaining that I

383
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 2: was twelve years old when I entered into this contract.

384
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 2: There's nowhere in the United States that it's legal for

385
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 2: a twelve year old to enter into a contract, So

386
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 2: please stop sending me albums. And they did.

387
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 3: I love it. Very precocious kid.

388
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 2: Thanks. I like that story. So I was a little bastard.

389
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, you mean like the rapper.

390
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 2: No, that's old Dirty Bastard, right.

391
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,359
Speaker 3: I was thinking Low Wayne and Old Dirty Bastard got together.

392
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: Right, little Bastard. That's my new rap name.

393
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:44,120
Speaker 3: Not tepid t all right. So Panta Pandora, not pantorra

394
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 3: Pandora came along in two thousand and five. It began

395
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 3: as Savage Beast Technologies, and they were founded on this

396
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 3: idea of the algorithm to recommend songs to where it

397
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 3: would curate like this is Chuck's station. And the way

398
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 3: they did this was through something called the Music Genome Project,

399
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 3: which I remember just thinking it was the coolest idea

400
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 3: and thing ever back then, and it was a cool thing.

401
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 2: It was.

402
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 3: It was basically that they would analyze four hundred and

403
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 3: fifty unique attributes of every song that exists from you know,

404
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,639
Speaker 3: as simple as like what genre is it to like

405
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 3: how nasally somebody's voice was.

406
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

407
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 3: Then they would evaluate it on a scale of one

408
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 3: to five with half increments, and the end result would

409
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 3: be the songs you know, quote unquote DNA. Initially, they

410
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 3: had a musicologist that did this by ear in the

411
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 3: hand and it took like fifteen to thirty minutes a song.

412
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 3: Eventually AI took over, but it was that was the

413
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 3: big attraction for Pandora was like this super cool project

414
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 3: where they're categorizing music so specifically that it will start

415
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 3: to learn what you like and you can curate your

416
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 3: own radio station.

417
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 2: That's nuts. I never heard of that music genome project before.

418
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 3: Oh really, it was sort of all the rage at

419
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: the time.

420
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 2: Pretty groundbreaking. I mean, I'm taking it this is in

421
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 2: the early two thousands.

422
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 3: I mean it was when Pandora started. That was sort

423
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 3: of the basis of how they worked.

424
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 2: Wow.

425
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, two thousand and five.

426
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So Pandora also started to try a subscription model.

427
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 2: Were they the first They may.

428
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 3: Have been, Well, I think Naster tried it but it

429
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 3: didn't work.

430
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: Okay, So Pandora was the first I guess that was

431
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: successful at it. It was I think three dollars a

432
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 2: month for streaming music with no advertising, which sounds like

433
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,439
Speaker 2: a deal, But there are only like ten songs on

434
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: the internet at the time it's it did, and they

435
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 2: tried like ten hour free trials kind of like those

436
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 2: AOL sample discs. Yeah, but only one. They only had

437
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 2: like a one percent conversion rate.

438
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

439
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why I think that doesn't

440
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 2: get mentioned very often is that we're talking this is

441
00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: like the mid oughts two thousand and five. People were

442
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: not at all comfortable with giving their credit card information

443
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 2: out over the internet. Yeah, and that's the only way

444
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: you could buy.

445
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 3: Back then, Yeah, when it just seemed like the most

446
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 3: like top secret thing you could even have as a

447
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 3: part of your life, right.

448
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I really truly think that that was one

449
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 2: of the reasons why this got a slow start. People

450
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 2: were just so comfortable with paying for things using their

451
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 2: credit card over the internet. And that's I mean, how

452
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 2: else you're gonna build some but you're gonna send them

453
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 2: a physical bill for your online streaming service.

454
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 3: You get a letter from a twelve year old after that.

455
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly imagine Pandora getting checks mailed to them every month.

456
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: That'd be hilarious. But I mean, I guess that's what

457
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: you'd have to do to get business going.

458
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're totally right. Those early days of

459
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 3: e commerce, I think a lot of us had some

460
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 3: trepidation about entering those digits online, you.

461
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, and it might become it might be is

462
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: a confirmation bias where I, like, I was like that,

463
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: so I just assume other people were as well. But

464
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 2: most of the people I knew were not comfortable giving

465
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: out their credit card info at that time.

466
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 3: No, I think you're right on the money, no bias whatsoever.

467
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 3: You're just right cool.

468
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: So Congress got involved, actually in the United States at least,

469
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 2: and they came up with the Copyright Royalty and Distribution

470
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 2: Reform Act of two thousand and four. That's how disruptive

471
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 2: napster was. Yeah, in four years, Congress had passed an

472
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: act essentially trying to help smooth this over. I'm sure

473
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 2: it was largely in the favor of the labels, but

474
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: it set up the US Copyright Royalty Board where these

475
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 2: these software companies and streamers would come and take claims

476
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: or be taken to this board by music labels to

477
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 2: figure out who owed who what.

478
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, which was a big, you know, through a

479
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:46,959
Speaker 3: big wrench in the plans of a lot of these

480
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: companies that were just emerging. I think the ones that

481
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: were sort of smaller gave up pretty quickly because it

482
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: was such a legal quagmire. Like Yahue Music wasn't even

483
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 3: you know, a smallish one. They shut themselves down.

484
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. So again Apple kind of rides to

485
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 2: the rescue. And in two thousand and seven they introduced

486
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 2: the iPhone. Because I don't know if we said it

487
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: or not. Before the iPhone came along, if you wanted

488
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 2: to listen to downloaded music anywhere away from your PC,

489
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: you had to buy an iPod or one of it's

490
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: also ran competitors like Zoom or something like that, but

491
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 2: you had to have like a physical device to listen to.

492
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,959
Speaker 2: When the iPhone came out, it was like throw all

493
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 2: that crowd away. Now you can not only listen to

494
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: your MP three's that you're buying off the iTunes store,

495
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: you can listen to streaming music. You can do everything

496
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: you can on the internet, you can do on your iPhone.

497
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: So it provided a super stable, safe platform, not at

498
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: all skanky. You weren't going to get viruses or anything

499
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: like that from downloading apps from the App store. And

500
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: Pandora actually saw the writing on the wall very early,

501
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 2: and they had an app like I think the next

502
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: year that was available for the iPhone that was a

503
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: Pandora streaming app. And I think the first year, within

504
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: nine months that the app that the App store came out,

505
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: the Pandora app was on almost a quarter of all

506
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: iPhones in the world.

507
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, this also brought back funny memories of this is

508
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: kind of like when we were getting going with the

509
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 3: TV show.

510
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 2: Ish really at those twenty thirteen.

511
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: Well, I'm just talking about no, no, no, I'm not saying

512
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: the launch of the iPhone. I'm saying the apps being

513
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 3: like the end all be all. Like I remember very

514
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: specifically in some of those TV meetings some of the

515
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: guys on staff, like all they could talk about was

516
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: apps and look at this new app and it does this,

517
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: and it does this cool thing, and it does this

518
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 3: cool weird thing, and it was just app, apps, apps,

519
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 3: And it's just funny to look back how that is

520
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 3: at least changed for me. I mean, maybe people still

521
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 3: use all kinds of funky apps, but almost every app

522
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 3: I have is utilitarian and serve some kind of like

523
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 3: function for doing something right.

524
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: But if you wanted to razzle dazzle a C suite

525
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,719
Speaker 2: executive who is like ten years older than you at

526
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: the time, all you had to do is even let

527
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: them know you were thinking in terms of apps, and

528
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: they would just automatically promote you. I totally remember that time.

529
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: We've survived a lot of weird times, haven't we.

530
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: Hey we have, including the great stuff you should know.

531
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 3: Fire of eight.

532
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, death of Richard Marx.

533
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 3: Oh he didn't die, did he.

534
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: No? Okay, that was a terrible joke. I'm sorry, Richard Mark, Sorry,

535
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: Utah Saints, Sorry Richard Mars Right.

536
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: Uh so we have to talk about Spotify. Should we

537
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 3: do that or take a break?

538
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: First, let's talk about Spotify, all right?

539
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 3: Spotify comes along. They changed the game. Pandora was still

540
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 3: trying to be you know, kind of like radio in

541
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 3: a way. Spotify was like, know, we're really going to

542
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: be on demand and this is kind of what everyone's

543
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 3: been waiting for. It was a company out of Stockholm, Sweden,

544
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 3: very famous for swedeness, for encouraging and supporting their tech industries.

545
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 3: That's why there's somebody coming out of there. But they

546
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 3: launched in two thousand and six, and then I think

547
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: Weighted had to wait until twenty eleven to launch in

548
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 3: the US because they had to you know, they were

549
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: I guess smart enough early on to pre negotiate with

550
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: record labels and kind of get all that settled, so

551
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 3: they weren't just dragged into court right away.

552
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: Right so early in their early years, even when they

553
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: were just available in Europe, in Western Europe, they had

554
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,239
Speaker 2: ten million users and at one point six of them

555
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: were already paying users. Right So before this thing even

556
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: hit the US, it was valued at a billion dollar

557
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: Spotify was, and when it hit the US, it it

558
00:28:54,480 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: just reached this incredibly massive level. One of the things

559
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: that Spotify did, I think today there they're at like

560
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: six hundred and fifteen million active users something crazy like that.

561
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: But one of the ways that they managed to kind

562
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: of come in and be like, hey, peace everybody, was

563
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: that they really paid royalties to the artists and the

564
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: labels or whoever owned the copyright of that song. They

565
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: paid like seventy percent of their revenues went to pay royalties,

566
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: and so they have been losing money every year since

567
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: at least twenty eleven, probably back when they debuted in

568
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: two thousand and six and I think twenty twenty three. No,

569
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: the first two couriers of twenty twenty four, yes, they

570
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: they made record profits, and because they lost money every

571
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: year up until then, a record profit for them could

572
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: have been one dollar. But they finally turned profitable essentially,

573
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: and they're saying, like, now we're going to be profitable,

574
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: profitable from here on out. One of the criticisms they

575
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 2: took is that they became profitable by going through massive

576
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: rounds of layoffs and jacking up the price of their subscriptions.

577
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: But the point about to know about Spotify is they

578
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: created a new standard by saying we're going to actually

579
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: pay real royalties to the people who own this music.

580
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 3: Oh for sure. So I think we take that break.

581
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, we'll be right back, all right.

582
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 3: So twenty fifteen, a little several new players came on

583
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: the scene. Title you might have heard a lot about

584
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: at the time, all capitals TIDL. This was an artist

585
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 3: owned alternative kind of like you know, United artists and

586
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 3: movies back in the day. Like musicians actually got together

587
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 3: under the guidance of jay Z to buy a company.

588
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: Initially it was an Norway based company called a SPIRO

589
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: that we're developing. It stood for wireless music player but

590
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 3: the WIMP and it was higher bit rates, supposedly better

591
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 3: quality and also like real human editors making music recommendations.

592
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: So jay Z gets on board. He's like, man, we

593
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: can't call it whimp in the United States. It's not

594
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: tough at all. So they changed it to title, right.

595
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: I read an interesting article. Also, big ups to Olivia

596
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: for helping us with this one. But she found an

597
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: article from Loud and Quiet dot com written by Stuart

598
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: Stubbs called five years on a very silly launch of

599
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: Title and if you like, just kind of laughing a

600
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: little bit at the misfortune of super egotistical, wealthy people

601
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: like that article a lot. Yeah, he just slams like

602
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: this launch and I haven't seen it because I can't

603
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: bear to watch it based on his description of how

604
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: awkward it is. But apparently it was one of the

605
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: most awkward star studded events ever held.

606
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen it. It was awkward. It was just

607
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, man, Sometimes companies just screw it all up,

608
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 3: you know, right.

609
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: I think one of the big screw ups was to

610
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: basically tell the audience not to clap for anything, which

611
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure was a decision because you don't want it

612
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: to seem like these stars showed up so that they

613
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: could be applauded for everything they said. Yeah, but instead

614
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: it made it super awkward and quiet. From what Stuart

615
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: Stubb says, it is.

616
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: Very weird for Madonna to walk out on stage and

617
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: be met with silence. It was slightly surreal.

618
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

619
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: So Titles Deal was another company obviously because they were

620
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 3: artists that wanted to pay through pretty well and musicians

621
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: got a seventy five royalty on each song. It wasn't

622
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: too long after that they were being sued for underpayment

623
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 3: and it ended up not being a financial success as

624
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 3: a company, right. A bit of a mess, it seemed like.

625
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: But it got bailed out by Jack Dorsey, the co

626
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: founder of Twitter. He was leading a company called Block Inc.

627
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: And in twenty twenty one he used Block Inc funds

628
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: to buy an eighty six percent share in Title for

629
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: three hundred million dollars. Yeah, and essentially the shareholders in

630
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: Block sued. They sued Jack Dorsey for this because they're like,

631
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: you did this as a favorite to jay Z. You

632
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: can't do that to us. This is a terrible deal.

633
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: And they actually had the lawsuit dismissed.

634
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think. I mean, if you want to compare,

635
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: I believe that jay Z, what did they pay like

636
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 3: fifty something million?

637
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: Everybody chipped in fifty six million?

638
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so then flipped it for three hundred to

639
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 3: his friend.

640
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: But really it was probably worth half of the original

641
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: price by this time because it was not a success

642
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: at all, and even still today, I saw it has

643
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: about five million users, it says, but that that's even

644
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: disputed by people outside the company. And like I said that,

645
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: judge dismissed the case against Jack Dorsey and he said

646
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: that that there's nothing legally wrong in approving it, even

647
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 2: though it was quote a terrible business decision.

648
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, that's pretty funny.

649
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 2: I was so mad.

650
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I wonder if you've snuck up behind jay

651
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 3: Z and looked at his phone what he's playing.

652
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: With the real player he's ogreat I.

653
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: Did look up that logo, by the way, and it

654
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: was a wave of nostalgia. Might another one that came

655
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: out in twenty fifteen. You might have seen Neil Young

656
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 3: screaming at people on your television set right around then.

657
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 3: It was Pono that was his this is actual device.

658
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 3: It was a player, the Pono player, and it was

659
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: a crowdfunded campaign that raised about ten million bucks. And

660
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 3: the whole pitch here was from Neil Young, especially was

661
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 3: MP three's are garbage and that compression stinks and this

662
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: is all the night. Like Neil Young was much more

663
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: critical and probably cussed a lot more, but he's like,

664
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 3: the quality here is better, and this is the way

665
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 3: music should be listening. It's a travesty how we're listening

666
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: to music these days. And that company, I mean, I

667
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 3: guess Neil Young failed to realize it. By and large,

668
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: most people don't care about the quality to that level.

669
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people just can't detect it. It's

670
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: not even that they don't care, it's that once you

671
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 2: get to a certain bit rate measured in kilobytes per second,

672
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: that's how much how many bits are being transferred per second.

673
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: So obviously the more bits transferred, the more of the

674
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: song that's captured, the better the sound quality. Somewhere outside

675
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: of two hundred and fifty six kilobytes a second. When

676
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 2: you start going over that, people generally can't tell the difference,

677
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: especially if you're just using like earbuds or something like that.

678
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: You know, we're just playing it through the speaker of

679
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: your iPhone.

680
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 3: Especially, Yeah, oh god, do people do that?

681
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: Very obnoxious people do.

682
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: Yes, A CD, just for comparison, is a little over

683
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 3: fourteen high hundred kilobits per second. And you said two

684
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 3: fifty six is where people can't tell much of a difference.

685
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 3: That's like, that's like people with a good ear they say,

686
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: if you're around ninety to one hundred and you're not

687
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: the most discerning listener and you're not playing, you know,

688
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: through something great, then you probably won't be able to

689
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 3: tell the difference.

690
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 2: Right. But again, if you're Neil Young, yes you're really

691
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: upset about this, but it's a course. He really missed

692
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: the mark by assuming that everybody felt this way about it.

693
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean you can you can get just

694
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: great quality of music from a fairly compressed rate. Yeah,

695
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: I agree.

696
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: Twenty fifteen also, and this kind of surprised me. It

697
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 3: felt like it had been around longer. But that's when

698
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 3: Apple Music, not iTunes, but the Apple Music streaming finally

699
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 3: was launched surprisingly late to the game, supposedly because Steve

700
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 3: Jobs didn't like the idea. So Apple and Amazon, who

701
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: had been selling MP three's just like Apple had, they

702
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: launched about a year later. So they're both giants that

703
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: were kind of late to the streaming game.

704
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Apparently Steve Jobs thought that it was basically piracy

705
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: to make people rent music rather than own it, and

706
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: that people didn't want to rent music, they wanted to

707
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: own it, so therefore subscription streaming services were basically just

708
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: taking advantage of their users. And he kind of said,

709
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 2: if you pay one hundred dollars a year to listen

710
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 2: to your favorite song over ten years, you paid one

711
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 2: thousand dollars to listen to that song and you don't

712
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: even own it, rather than just buying it once for

713
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: a dollar or something like that. And he makes a

714
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 2: good point, but he's also leaving out all the other

715
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: music that you've listened to over that ten year period.

716
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: It's a weird way to put it. Yeah, it's a

717
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: little disingenuous, but he was very much opposed to it,

718
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: and Apple was not about to get into the streaming

719
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: game while he was alive.

720
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: He's like, if you're wealthy like me, you'll pay for

721
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 3: a different streaming subscription for every song you want to

722
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: hear exactly, just to make it fair.

723
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: And that's madness.

724
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 3: Pandora, we should Mention was bought by Sirius XM and

725
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, and we should, you know, talk a little

726
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 3: bit about how the finances worked today, because it was,

727
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: you know, there was a bit of a things have

728
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: regulated just a bit. You know, things really went in

729
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 3: the tank. I think that the twenty fourteen was that

730
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 3: the lowest point in dollars for the music industry. They've

731
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 3: come back now. In twenty twenty two, revenues hit twenty

732
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,479
Speaker 3: six point two billion, which is about a twenty five

733
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 3: percent drop compared to when CDs died. But that's a

734
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: seventy percent increase from where they were in twenty fourteen.

735
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a that is a low point

736
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 2: for sure.

737
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. So they've sort of course corrected enough to where

738
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 3: I think they're like, hey, it'll never be the heyday

739
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 3: of CDs again, right, but not every Like people are

740
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 3: actually paying for music now with these subscriptions.

741
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it does turn out that Steve Jobs will

742
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: absolutely wrong. People are generally totally cool with renting their

743
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: music through subscription services. I think eighty four percent of

744
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: music revenue comes from paid subscriptions. Yeah that's a I mean,

745
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: that's significant. And one two thousand and ninth study found

746
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: that piracy had dropped because of the affordability of legal

747
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: ways of consuming media, not because of enforcement, not the

748
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: threat of being sued by Metallica, but just the fact

749
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: that it was easier and by this time people got

750
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: used to putting their credit card info on the internet.

751
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 3: The threat of Lars Ulrich's coming into your room and

752
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 3: speaking to you for twenty minutes. Yeah, that's enough right

753
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 3: there for sure. As far as what they pay, I mean,

754
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 3: Spotify's the biggest dog in the market. They have about

755
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 3: thirty percent of the streaming market and like you said,

756
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 3: more than six hundred million active users. But these royalties,

757
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 3: Title pays the most at one point three cents, Apple's

758
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 3: point seven, YouTube music point seven. Spotify pays point four

759
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 3: cents per stream, same as Amazon and then Pandora's down

760
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 3: to point one. You're obviously making a lot more money

761
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 3: off of Spotify because they're the biggest player, so it's

762
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: less per stream. But as an artist, if you're a

763
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: hit on Spotify, then there's a lot of money to

764
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: be made.

765
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: Right Yeah. I think Spotify paid over nine billion dollars

766
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: in royalties in twenty twenty three, three times more than

767
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 2: they paid six years earlier. And there've been studies about

768
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 2: how much money is actually made by the artists. There's

769
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: sixty six thousand artists that make ten grand or more

770
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 2: a year on the platform through music sharing, eleven thousand

771
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: of them make more than one hundred thousand dollars a year,

772
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 2: and then twelve hundred of them make a million plus.

773
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: And of course most of the twelve hundred are names

774
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: that you've heard of that are already making tons of

775
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: money anyway. But you know, toward the lower end of

776
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 2: that scale, there are indie artists that never in their

777
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: life would have made a million dollars in a record

778
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: label deal that are now like making producing, sharing their

779
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: own music, running their own social media, and they're making

780
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: a million dollars a year more from their music, which

781
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: is That's one of the ways that this completely changed

782
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: the game, not just in taking money away from the

783
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: music labels, but also in making it easier for independent

784
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: artists to just exist without the music labels.

785
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure, I got a couple of things

786
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 3: for you here on that line, our beloved Pavement that

787
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 3: we both love. Sure Harness Your Hopes was a B side,

788
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 3: kind of throwaway song, not throw away, but a B

789
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 3: side from nineteen ninety six. It never made it onto

790
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 3: their album. It went viral on TikTok last year. You

791
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 3: know about all this, right, No, so the song goes

792
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 3: viral on TikTok for some reason. And like huge Pavement

793
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 3: for eight song from nineteen ninety six got one hundred

794
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: and forty eight million streams on Spotify. Wow, which, if

795
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 3: the math is right, close to six hundred thousand dollars

796
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 3: just from Spotify from a you know, B side from

797
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six.

798
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: That's awesome.

799
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,439
Speaker 3: That's amazing. So that kind of stuff can happen, which

800
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: is great. And then I looked up I was curious

801
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 3: who the most stream like, the most streamed song ever

802
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: on Spotify is. My guess would have been a Taylor

803
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: Swift song. Believe it or not. Taylor Swift has the

804
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 3: her highest charting Spotify as far as number of streams

805
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 3: go is the forty second highest. What is it?

806
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: Just so she has so many songs that that it

807
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 2: counts for her streams, I guess because she has tens

808
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: of billions of streams.

809
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 3: No, that's for a song like one specific song.

810
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: Oh oh, I see you're saying in dollar amounts and royalties.

811
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 3: No, no, no, in streams like her. Her Her most streamed

812
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: song is Cruel Cruel Summer, and that is number forty

813
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 3: two on the list.

814
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: First of all, that's Banana rama. And secondly, I think

815
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 2: my point still stands. She just has so many songs

816
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: and variations of her songs that when you put it

817
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: all together, she has like thirty eight billion streams a

818
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 2: year of Spotify. Yeah.

819
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's for her whole catalog, which is incredible.

820
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: So who's number one? That she's way down at forty two.

821
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 3: The weekend, which one his song Blinding Lights Wow, is

822
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 3: the most downloaded song on Spotify And I did I

823
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: think it was. I can't remember. I think it was

824
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 3: like four or five billion streams. And I did some math,

825
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 3: and I may not be right, but if I did

826
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 3: my math right, it looks like that that dude has

827
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 3: made more than one hundred million dollars on that song

828
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 3: off of Spotify.

829
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: That's just off of Spotify, right, Yeah, that's not including

830
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,919
Speaker 2: like YouTube music, Amazon music sales of the actual MP

831
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 2: three year album.

832
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: How many ways can I say? Only Spotify.

833
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 2: In hindsight, even that doesn't quite make sense. I'm not like, ah,

834
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: that makes sense. It's funny how the internet can do that.

835
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: I would have guessed Gongam style, but that's a little

836
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: little dated, I guess.

837
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 3: I just like, if that math is right, that's that's incredible.

838
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. But that's the kind of money you

839
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: can make off that. I saw Drake made like three

840
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars off of Spotify in a year recently.

841
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: So yeah, and if you're again, indie bands are now

842
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: at the table. They can do this all themselves. They

843
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: can just split it among themselves as bandmates. And you know,

844
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: if you just hit it just right, you can go

845
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: viral like that Pavement song did and really make it

846
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: not just money wise, but your career. You can expose

847
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 2: yourself to so many people virtually on social media or

848
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: streaming music, is what I mean. But also there's an

849
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: other side to it as well, because record executives haven't

850
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: gone anywhere. There's still plenty of them, and so when

851
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: you do have a contract with the label. They'll very

852
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: frequently be like, hey, this song has to have an

853
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: amazing hook that's no more than ten seconds long because

854
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: we want to get it viral on TikTok. Go make

855
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: a viral video on TikTok. Essentially is what they're saying,

856
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: and so that's shaping how artists are making music, and

857
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 2: a lot of them are not happy about that.

858
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also reshaped, you know, the sort of the

859
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 3: album era is kind of dead. I mean, there's still

860
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: plenty of albums and still plenty of artists doing that,

861
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 3: but it's almost, like Livia points out, it almost is

862
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 3: like going back to the days of the forty fives

863
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties where it was you know, these

864
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: singles are being released and that's interesting. I know that.

865
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 3: You know, one thing we should mention is that there

866
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: is they're trying to get it pushed through now the

867
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: Living Wage for Musicians Act through the house, where they're

868
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: basically saying, hey, minimum royalty should be a penny per stream. Like,

869
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: I know, you make a lot more on Spotify because

870
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 3: it's the biggest player, but they're paying four cents and

871
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 3: like if everyone paid a cent, that would be a

872
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 3: huge difference.

873
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you're like I totally agree with that,

874
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: you can go to Actionnetwork dot org and look for

875
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 2: Living Wage for Musicians ACT. This morning, they only needed

876
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: four hundred and thirty two more signatures to reach their goal,

877
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: so apparently it automatically becomes law at twelve thousand signatures.

878
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, nice work.

879
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 3: I'm glad you put that out there.

880
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 2: I am mistaken by the way. But yeah, there was

881
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 2: one other thing I wanted to point out to the

882
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 2: way that it's evolved. Because there's not a huge gamble

883
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 2: in making music like there was when you have a

884
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 2: whole production going on in a label and you're actually

885
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: physically producing the albums. There's way more availability and potential

886
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: for artists to explore genre bending, genre fusing all sorts

887
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 2: of gambly risky new types of music that they would

888
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: never be able to try if they had like a

889
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: major album or a major major label contract and that

890
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 2: label was not willing to take those risks. So that's

891
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: another way that shaped it positively.

892
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you and me could get together and

893
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 3: put out a song and get it out there and streaming,

894
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: like we could do that.

895
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: Okay, what should we do? Should we call ourselves pendulum

896
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: of development? And we're gonna play Both of us are

897
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: going to play the mandolin, but neither of us know

898
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: how to play the mandolin? Is the hook?

899
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 3: Well, who's our slide whistle player? Jerry? Okay, sure, we're

900
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 3: gonna cut her in on this.

901
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: Well, no, I mean, but she can still be the

902
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 2: slide whistle player. Oh okay, great, you got anything else?

903
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: I got nothing else. This is a fun little trip

904
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 3: down memory lane.

905
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was agreed. Good choice, And that's it. Everybody

906
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 2: for streaming music, which means, of course it's time for

907
00:47:58,760 --> 00:47:59,439
Speaker 2: listener mail.

908
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna say this is we're sort of correcting

909
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 3: our omission of our Minecraft episode when we couldn't think

910
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:10,439
Speaker 3: of the kid's name.

911
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 2: Oh, Kober.

912
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 3: It was a kid in the audience, and we could

913
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 3: remember his name. So we got a letter from Boden's mom.

914
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 3: Oh hey, guys, my son. Boden was the kid who

915
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 3: asked about Minecraft at the Medford show. He was the

916
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 3: one with the glasses who also made the joke about

917
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: being a retired factory worker.

918
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: Was so great.

919
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 3: That'll make sense if you've seen this show. He didn't

920
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: ask about mobs, and in fairness, there were probably ten

921
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 3: other kids after him who also asked about Minecraft. I

922
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 3: don't think that's true, so I'm not sure if he's

923
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 3: the one you're thinking of. Well, he was, Sarah, but

924
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 3: she says regardless, I'm pretty sure he considers this to

925
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 3: be his greatest contribution to humanity to date.

926
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: Man, that kid is so cool.

927
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: Sincerely thanks from a very grateful parent. And that is

928
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 3: from Sarah, so big. Thanks Boden. Yeah, and I'm glad

929
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 3: we could get your name out there.

930
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks a lot. Boden, was a great idea and

931
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: we appreciate your mom writing in. That was Sarah.

932
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 3: Yes, awesome.

933
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to be like Boden and Sarah,

934
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: come to one of our shows and suggest an episode.

935
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 2: You can also just make it easier on yourself and

936
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 2: send it via email, Wrap it up, spank it on

937
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: the Minecraft, and send it off to Stuff podcast at

938
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com.

939
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

940
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

941
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.