WEBVTT - #046 Jason Flom with David McCallum 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.800 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:09.959 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.039 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.560 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.160 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:18.200 I hadn't done anything wrong. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.080 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.680 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.600 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.159 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.520 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.280 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.320 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.320 Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.400 on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.280 that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:15.679 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Ronful Conviction with 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.800 Jason Flamm. Today, we have an amazing cast of characters 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:22.759 and I'm going to introduce the star of our show first, 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:23.680 David McCollum. 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.840 It is freedom after twenty eight years lost in prison 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.559 for a New York man wrongly convicted of murder. 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:32.920 David McCallum. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.360 In nineteen eighty six, McCallum and another teen, Willie Stucky, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.080 were sentenced to twenty five years to life for the 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.080 kidnapping and murder of a twenty year old man. The 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.160 only evidence linking them to the crime was their videotape confessions, 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.880 which the boys claimed were fed to them by police 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.120 for nearly thirty years. McCallum insisted he was innocent. A 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:57.240 judge agreed. Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson supported the release. 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.880 We concluded that there was no physical evidence, no DNA evidence, 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:03.520 no testimonial evidence. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.560 That conclusion came from Thompson's Conviction Review Unit, which was 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.560 created this year to look at past cases. Out of 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.280 the thirty they've examined, ten convictions have been overturned. 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.400 Welcome to wrongful conviction. Thank you for having me, and 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.000 with David, we have someone who I consider to be 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.120 a rock star. We have the sitting Brooklyn DA Eric 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.840 Gonzalez is here to talk about this case. Eric. Welcome, 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.520 Thank you, Jason, thank you for having me. And we 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.480 have a very dapper gentleman. You can't see him on 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.920 the radio, but trust me, he's got a very good tailor. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:41.880 And he's a wonderful lawyer responsible for six exonerations of 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:46.200 wrongfully convicted people, including you, David. So, I want to 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:48.520 welcome Oscar Michelin to the show. 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:50.280 Thank you, Jason, thanks for having me. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:55.680 So, David, this case is so extraordinary, not only because 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.120 of the length of time you served twenty nine years 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.119 wrongfully convicted, but because of the way that you got 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.560 convicted in the first place, way back in well the 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:06.960 mid eighties, right, that's how long. 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:08.440 That's correct, Yes, nineteen eighty five. 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.240 So take us back to that time. You were just 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.000 a child, really, I mean you were an adolescent boy 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:15.760 at the time. 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:17.480 Right, that's correct. I'm sixteen years old. 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:22.079 Sixteen years old. You were convicted of murder. Right, that's 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:24.760 not just murder, but other charges as well. 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:25.280 That's right. 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.080 Yes, it was a guy named Nathan Blenner who was 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:29.160 abducted and murdered. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:30.799 That's correct. Yes, did you. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:31.280 Know this guy? 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:31.520 No? 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.240 I never never seen him in my entire life. 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.560 No, what were the circumstances of the crime. What happened 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:37.839 with this Nathan Blenner guy? 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.520 Okay, So on October twenty of nineteen eighty five, I 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.880 will say sometime around three twenty in the afternoon. According 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.000 to postryposts, of course, mister Blenner, Nathan Blenner, was sitting 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.800 in his car in front of his home. He was 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.400 attempting to start the engine for whatever reason, and so 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.480 as a result of that, two young African American boys 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.880 approached Nathan Bunna and engaged in the conversation with him. 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.600 At some point there after, these individuals got into the 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.120 Carbineatan Blenna and they drove off with mister Blenner. About 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.960 the next day, on October twenty first, so Benna body 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.520 was found in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn, in a 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.240 park called Aberdeen Park. His body was found in the 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.640 back of this park with a gunshot going to the 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:16.320 back of the head. 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:18.800 How did it come to pass that they picked you 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:20.680 up in Stucky Well? 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.040 The week later, on October twenty seventh, nineteen eighty five, 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.599 Missus Stukey was arrested sometime around seven point thirty. According 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.640 to the information that of course I have, Missus Stukey 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:31.320 was approached. It was he was getting on the train 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.480 to go out to a basketball game and two detectives 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.160 walked up to him, approached him and acts but he 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.800 mind coming to the police station. Stucky agreed to go 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:40.880 to the police station with these individuals. They went down 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.800 to the police station. They questioned Missus Stukey about this 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.039 particular crime. Missus Stukey said that he was with me 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.600 when his crime was committed, which in fact he was 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.240 because on that day that this crime was said to 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.440 have been committed, we know Willie was in a park 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.520 playing hamble for my sister and their friends. So Willie 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.560 Stucky said that he was with me. Missus Stucky eventually 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.040 confessed to witnessing a crime and that crime was that 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.640 a shot miss of Blenna while Sustuki stood by and watched. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.560 And Oscar, you spent ten years working on this case, right, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.800 I mean, let's just reflect on that for a second. 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.600 Ten years to unravel this wrongful conviction. First of all, 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.400 kudos to you, because that's a hell of a commitment. 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.479 And David's here is living proof of your work. What 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.120 kind of a game were they playing here? And why 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.320 did they do this? And how did even Stuck you get? 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:28.799 Was he just chosen at random? 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:29.200 No? 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.039 No, we actually think that it was far more nefarious 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:37.200 than that. So it all started with some excellent police 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.560 work at the beginning of the case where there were 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.239 two young men who witnessed these two African American males 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:49.760 kidnapped and carjack Nathan Blenner in Queens and gave a 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.760 general description. One was taller than the other. They looked 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.600 to be about in their twenties. And then the police 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.240 did a canvas and they found a woman who lived 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.560 around the corner who said, hey, you know that same day, 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.000 just about an hour earlier, two young African American males, 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.200 one taller than the other, about in their twenties, one 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.960 with corn rows in his hair, approached me where I 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.960 was washing my car and said, hey, that's a nice car, 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.159 and it was a Buick Regal, the same car as 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.800 Nathan Blenner. So they use that description. They put that 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.040 description out to try to look for people. Two African 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.799 American males with carjack history, one of them in corn rows, 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:32.039 one taller than the other, and sure enough a Queen's 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.280 pricinct called the Brooklyn Detectives and said, hey, I think 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.320 we got your guys. They go to find these two 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.599 guys who match the description perfectly, have a history of 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:45.120 violent crime, and one of them works in a hardware 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:47.479 store where a kerosene can which was used to burn 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.720 the car was purchased from. So that looks that sounds great, right, Yeah, 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.599 cases should be over. So what ended up happening is 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.400 they let one of those two guys give them a 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.280 lead about a gun being sold down the street allegedly 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.880 by somebody named Supreme, and that this guy named James 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.960 Johnson knows that this gun allegedly was used to commit 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.000 that crime. And they turn away from these two guys 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.080 and they go to James Johnson. James Johnson gives him 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.160 the name Supreme. The cameras in the neighborhood they find 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.760 that Willy Stuckey goes by the name Supreme, and that's 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.320 how Willy is arrested. It's from two people who were 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.760 prime suspects to a rat because he got a great deal. 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.480 He was a suspect in shooting up of bodega James Johnson, 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.720 and in exchange for giving them information about the gun, 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.680 they didn't even arrest him for this robbery and shooting 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.800 in a bodega. And they had that He said, this kid, Willy, 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.200 who's known as Supreme in the neighborhood, is accused of 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.400 doing this. He had a gun, he was trying to 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.040 unload that he got from my aunt. 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.280 Now I want to turn too, Eric here for a second. 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.560 One of the reasons I'm so happy that Eric is 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:56.840 here not only because of the respect I have f 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:58.840 him and the work that he's doing, but also because 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.600 it's a Brooklyn case. You're the guy in Brooklyn now, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.560 and you know what I want to ask you is 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:09.400 this seems almost like it's not funny but almost comical. Right, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.080 you have these two guys who are obvious suspects, and 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.520 it wasn't that easy for them to throw the cops off, 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:16.480 because it's pretty clever what they did, right, Otherwise they 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.120 would have been in prison for the rest of their lives. 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.600 They just went, hey, there's a gun, and all of 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:22.600 a sudden, the cops go, let's go chase down the hallway. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:23.920 Here it sounds like it's Beector Cluso. 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.880 Quite frankly, David had applied to have this case looked 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.840 at before under a different district attorney at the time, 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.160 and they denied to you know, reopen the case and 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.400 re investigate the case in a serious way. And because 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.400 what David said, because they had a confession, and once 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.680 the police came upon Willie Stucky and he was a 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:51.760 young boy fifth sixteen as well, and he was confessing. 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.080 Then all the other evidence that would have led to 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.360 the rightful killers of Nathan Blenner. And you know, I 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.000 need to say that you feel very sad for his 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:05.640 family because they suffered along with David in a different 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.760 type of way. But the criminal justice system failed, not 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.480 just David, but also the blend of family and all 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.880 of us. But once they had this confession, all the 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.440 other pieces of evidence that made sense, the descriptions that 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.760 fit the other people, the kerosene car, anything that was 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:26.440 inconsistent with that confession was then cast aside and not 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.160 used and not presented, and really led to what we had, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.840 which was this travesty of justice, This evidence that should 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.319 have been before jury, and had it been before jury, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.920 would have cast all doubts on his confession. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.640 We talk on the show about false confessions a lot, 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:45.760 because I think it's one of the most important things 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.480 that we can educate the public too, is the idea 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.080 that just because somebody confessed to a crime, everybody thinks 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.320 the same way, why the hell would that guy confess? 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.120 So David, So people say, well, I don't know what 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.479 he confessed, why did you confess to the crimes? 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.040 Okay, So first let me just say that sometimes I 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.120 think when people hear confession, they automatically assume that the 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.480 person or the persons in this particular case actually committed 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.000 the crime or else why would they confess to the crime. 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.840 But I think what sometimes go unnoticed in the public 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.359 is that things happened in the police precinct that basically 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.239 forces suspects to, you know, confess the crime they didn't commit. 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.760 Such as was the case with being really stucky. 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.280 Well, I'll confessed to the crime for a number of reasons, 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:29.760 and I think, well, one of the first ones that 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.200 was physically beaten while the officers in the case, well, 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.120 to be more specific, I was beat by the investigative officer, 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.480 Joseph Budda at the time, also confessed because I was 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.480 promised that if fact actually confessed to the crime, that 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:42.000 I would. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:42.800 Be allowed to go home. 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.000 And I think sometimes in hindsight, when I think about 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.240 it now, for example, that I really think I was 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.679 going home at that time, as a sixteen year old 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.720 kid confessed to this heinage crime but murder, I actually 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:54.600 thought I was going home. 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.040 They didn't make him confess to the crime. Remember, you know, 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.199 people say, like, why would someone confess to the crime. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.000 Either he nor Wally ever said I took a gun, 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:04.640 put it to the back of Nathan's head and shot him. 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.120 I think if they had asked either of these two 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.360 boys at that time to say that, they would just say, hey, yo, 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.800 slow down a second now, because they knew that they 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.599 would know they weren't going home. But they were specifically 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:18.280 told you were just a witness. We know the other 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.400 guy shot him. So if you say you saw him 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.839 shoot him, you're out here. What are you so worried about? 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:24.800 Plus he already ratted you out, So who are you 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.240 trying to protect your friend who already sold you down 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.560 the river? You're going to be a fool. And so 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.880 I think you know, first obviously the physical abuse, the deception, 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.240 the pressure, not having a parent there, not having a 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.120 lawyer there, not knowing what the heck is going on, 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.920 wondering why your friend would kill somebody number one and 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.679 number two, why would your friend then rat you out 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:46.360 of old people when you know you didn't do it. 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:47.880 It shouldn't be lost. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.080 These are still children, the children sixteen years old children, 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.760 and the confession, and I'm sure you're going to get 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.400 into it, but the confessions don't make any sense, even 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.080 when they stand up to the evidence that was known 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.520 and even what was said between each other, the confessions 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:03.800 just don't make any sense. 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.360 I mean, I would ask the audience to put themselves 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.960 in your shoes. David, you were sixteen years old, you 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:11.880 must have been scared shitless. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.560 Absolutely, I was definitely afraid, and the fact that I 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.319 was afraid was so obvious though. But before you than that, though, 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:19.800 so when they take it down to the precinct, they 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.559 played the psychological game with you. 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:22.440 So they played this sort. 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.520 Of good cop backup thing whereas one cop would come 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.600 in and his tone of voice would be sort of 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.240 subtle and very calm, and he would ask me questions like, 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.520 you know, what's your name? Of course we live, and 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:33.160 you know, do you play any sports? Who is your 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.200 favorite team? That sort of thing, And then the officer, 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.000 the other officer came into so Buddha and I noticed 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.840 this tone was completely different from the other officers, and 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.160 you know, he was very very nasty in my opinion, 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.760 and very aggressive. And I knew then that this guy 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.679 was not the same guy that I spoke to obviously earlier, 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.120 so the tones of the two individuals were vastly different 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:50.600 from another. 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:55.760 St You're in a small windowless room, metal table, metal chair, 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.160 large officer hulking over you. At one point, Detective Buddha, 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.959 was now deceased, picked up a chair and held it 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:05.320 over his head. He goes, is this how we're going 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.840 to have to do this? After he'd slapped David around. 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.800 But one of the things that DNA did is teach 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.959 people that innocent people confess. Because the Innocent Project has 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.800 exonerated somewhere around four hundred people with the use of DNA, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.240 twenty five percent of those exonerations had a confession, and 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.920 so those are people who are demonstrably proven innocent. There's 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.280 no doubt the DNA shows they didn't do it, And 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.800 in one out of every four DNA exonerations there's a 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.520 false confession. So the police are trained to interrogate in 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.439 a certain way. They all use this technique called the 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.240 read technique, which allows the deception, allows pressure, lets them 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.400 make up facts, lets them pit one against the other, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.840 lots of different things. And in hindsight, I guess you 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.600 would say, why would I do that? But again, until 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:54.600 you've gone through it, it's hard to understand. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.320 Let's look at it this way, right, you're sixteen years old. 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.200 You're totally disoriented because everything is upside down. You have 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.160 the police, who all of us grew up respecting and 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.959 thinking they were out for our best interest. And that's 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:08.679 the guy you go to if you're in trouble, right, 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.040 That's how I grew up for sure, and I think 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.800 most police that is the case. Were you a violent 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:14.719 guy prior to this? 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:16.360 Oh no, no, no, not at all. 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.920 So this is all a totally crazy experience in every 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.120 possible way. You had nothing to prepare you for it. 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.200 You're all alone and you see no way out, and 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.160 then all of a sudden, if that wasn't crazy enough, 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.760 the violence, the threat of further violence. They bring your friend, 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:32.280 or they show your friend, they say, hey told you, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:33.760 she said you did, and all you got to do 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:34.560 is say he did it. 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:36.520 One of the interesting things in my particular case, so 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.120 when I was first approached by these detectives on the 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.760 streets in Brooklyn, I was with friends. We were sort 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:42.920 of in the game where we were sort of hung 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.800 outland and so one of the officers approached me you 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:47.200 have my picture in his hand. They said, would you 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.040 mind coming out to the police station for question? 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:49.680 That said sure. 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.680 You know, I didn't do anything, So I felt like 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.600 maybe they want to come down. Maybe something happened in 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:55.560 the neighborhood that they wanted to speak to me about. 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.480 Maybe I have some information or whatever the case may 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.760 have been. So I had no reason to sort of 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:01.040 be afraid of anything. 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:01.600 You know. 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.080 It wasn't until I got into the police station where 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.760 they placed a squad car, where they placed Hanckers on 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:09.040 me to an extent where they were very tight. At 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:10.920 that point, that's where the sort of the red flag 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:12.520 went up and I knew something was something was wrong 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:13.480 at that particular time. 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.040 So I came down to the precpt. 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:16.920 Like I said, I had no reason to think that 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:18.840 I was gonna be in trouble for anything. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:20.560 Did they read your Miranda rights? 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.200 No, not in a squad car on the street. 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:24.800 And know that I got down to the police station 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.920 and at some point after some of the questions occurred, 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:29.680 that's when they read me my rights. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.520 But you probably, like most people who were innocent, you 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.200 probably thought I don't need a lawyer because I'm just 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.400 gonna answer some questions and go home because they everyone's 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:38.400 gonna know I didn't do this because I was. I 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:38.880 wasn't there. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.080 Yeah, I think sometimes I'm know my particular situation, I 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.600 was so afraid and intimidated really that I wasn't even 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:44.280 thinking rationally. 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:45.240 I wasn't even thinking at all. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.200 I was just kind of numb to the point of 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:50.640 being accused of killing somebody when I know I didn't 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:52.840 and I know that police suck. He didn't do anything either, 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:54.840 So I think it was sort of maybe I don't 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:56.280 know if it was shock or anything like that, but 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.280 I know I was. I was sort of numb to 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.880 the entire situations. So even for example, when when the 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.200 Miranda warners were being read to, now, I heard what 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.160 the officer was saying, but it didn't generate one way 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:07.600 or the other. 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:13.760 Just back then, these interrogations were not video, and so 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:18.120 what the jury's got to see is after the confession 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:22.200 had been extracted and written down and sometimes talked through 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:27.200 from the defense perspective practiced, then a video machine would 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.480 be brought into the room to take a confession that 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:35.840 seemingly the person is confessing they're not handcuffed. The circumstances 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.920 at that moment look fairly friendly, considering it's a wider, open, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.880 bigger room, there's more light, but everything that happened before 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.360 that is not captured. And then you're left with the 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.240 juror who's saying, I would never have confessed I was 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.720 in a cent of a homicide. So all they see 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.080 is then the video confession that had been caught in 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.400 Sometimes it's twelve hours later. I mean, it's a long 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.640 time later, so that they've been with the police for 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:00.520 a very long time. 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.480 These quote unquote confessions which had very little facts. David's 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.679 confession statement on the videotape is about three minutes long. 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:09.520 That's it. 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:11.520 There's no details. 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:16.040 He's not asked what caliber weapon, he's not asked what handy. 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:16.399 Held the gun in. 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.159 It literally is about a series of about eight to 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.280 ten questions he's asked by the prosecutor who comes down 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:24.240 to take the confession. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.719 Willie's was a little bit longer, about six or seven minutes. 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.280 It should have been obvious at that point that obviously 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.240 someone who had committed the crime would have known a 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.239 little bit more about what had happened, and it was 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.720 clear that the police officer and maybe even the DA 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.400 who was involved are a little bit afraid to get 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.359 into much detail because it was going to show that 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.720 they didn't have the knowledge of it. But the confessions 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.720 left a lot more questions unanswered than they resolved. 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.920 Yeah, I've been a prosecutor for twenty two years and 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:57.439 I've taken these videotape confessions when I was writing assistant DA. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.120 I've viewed hundreds and hundreds of these confessions. And in 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.760 this case, when David's file landed on my desk, it 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:09.760 had entered the conviction review Unit, and the district attorney 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.480 at the time, Ken Thompson, said, Eric, I want you 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.760 to pay attention to this case. I want you to 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.200 look at the confessions and tell me what you think. 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.199 Got myself readied with all the evidence around me to 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.480 take a look, and I watched the confessions. I walked 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.879 in to Ken's office and I said, we have a 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:31.400 problem here. That was a confession that did not mean anything. 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:33.440 It was the most. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.639 Perfunctory confession ever. I mean, this was a case that 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.399 was supposed to be a carjacking, a robbery. There was 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.160 not a single question about the robbery aspect of the case. 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.879 What was taken, where did the property go? There was 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.400 not a single question about the gun, the type of gun, 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:49.639 the caliber of the gun. 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:51.240 These are not the type. 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.320 Of confessions that you would imagine that a jury would 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.800 convict on. And you have to wonder whether the racial 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:02.600 aspects of this part case mattered because you had two, 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:07.120 you know, young black men accused of kidnapping someone from 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.760 Queens and bringing them into Brokelyn and killing them. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:11.920 You know, was the victim white? Yes, you know, that's 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.359 the problem. And then the other thing that Oscar pointed 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.080 out before is the idea that the jury was led 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:21.120 to believe that you guys had driven this car throughout 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.479 New York City, but neither one of you had ever 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.199 driven a car or had a driver's license. You were 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.640 sixteen years old, so somehow or other you magically taught 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.520 yourself how to drive during the course of this carjacking 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:32.800 and robbery and everything else. I mean, you really have 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:34.720 to suspend a lot of layers of disbelief. 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.800 With a kidnap victim, alive kidnap victim in the back 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.679 holding him down supposedly with a gun, and the other 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:45.720 one is driving from Queens to Brooklyn, and then the 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.800 police had evidence that this car had been gassed up 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.240 at one in the morning with the victim's credit card 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.399 at an Amico gas station. And those days you had 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:55.959 to go give the credit card to the person. There 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.639 was no pay at the pump, you know. And wouldn't 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.960 they mention that I got gassed? They didn't ask them, well, 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:03.600 what about did you ever get guessed? I mean, there 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.320 were so many details they could have asked these two 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.280 boys to fill in. And it was just perfunctory is 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:10.440 exactly the right word. 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.920 Eric. It was just bare boned. David. 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:15.200 I want to get back to you, but I also 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.000 want to say that Ken Thompson, who was I guess 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.520 your mentor right. Ken was the DA until this year 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.240 when he died way too young, and he took such 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:30.159 great pride in the Conviction Review Unit, and he was 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.600 so proud of the work that he had done to 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.800 get justice for you and other people. So may he 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.080 rest in peace, David. So back to you. You end 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.640 up going to trial, I'm assuming you couldn't make bail, right. 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:45.800 No, you know, to have a bell. Actually he was 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:47.160 rematted that day. 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.199 Was he didn't see his mother out the street for 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:50.119 twenty nine years after that. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:50.400 Day. 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.880 So you were held in Rikers Yes, I was as 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.320 a sixteen year old boy. What an experience that had 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.560 to have been. And then you go to trial. Did 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.560 you still have any hope? Did you think that the 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.399 system was actually going to correct itself and that people 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.560 would understand that you could not have done this? 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:07.920 Well? Absolutely I did. 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.680 For example, when I was on record, Islan, I never 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.080 like saw my lawyer at all when I was on records, Allen, 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:14.919 the very first time I saw my lawyer was like 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.280 the first day of trial. So he came to the bullpen. 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.080 And when he came to the bullpen, he just simply 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.520 came to the bullpen to sort of sort of get 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:24.360 me prepared for what would happen when I walk into 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.920 the court room. So that was the very first time 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.120 I've seen this attorney in almost almost almost twelve months. 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.959 Actually, Okay, hold on, let's just let's just reflect on this. 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:38.000 So you're facing the murder charge. Your life is at stake. 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.080 You've been in Rikers Island for a year and no 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.720 one has come to visit you, no lawyer, nothing, No, 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:47.440 no they have so he has basically you, he's never 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.160 interviewed you. 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:51.520 No, So what happens when I was on Records Island. 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:53.200 For example, I forget my court The would be a 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.480 journal on a monthly basis. So I would walk into 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:57.600 court and they every time I would actually I should 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:00.360 say Willie and I will walk into court, and every 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:01.840 time we walk into court, it would be one of 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:04.280 those situations where they just sort of make the schedule 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.679 for another court day for the you know. So it 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.720 was never a conversation with my attorneys about anything about 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.200 in terms of the case. And you know, I mean 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.840 he knew I had alibi witnesses that needed to be interviewed. 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:17.840 I mean of the interviewed them himself. 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:18.239 You know. 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.199 So it was a series of things that this lay 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.440 failed to do for me during the course of the case. 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.640 So, if I'm correct, you didn't even make an opening statement, 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:29.320 you have a legal option of waiving and opening statement. 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.800 His attorney decided that it wasn't even worth talking to 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.080 the jury about what his theory of the case would 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.200 be and what the evidence he intended to show where 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:41.800 there was in fact a defense to be had. I mean, 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:45.280 they were fingerprints and DNA evidence that came back to 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.199 other folks when they found the vehicle. I mean the 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:49.960 gun had not been recovered. 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:52.760 They had those two guys who were arrested on the APB, 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.920 the old points bulletin that matched the description one of 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:57.440 them worked at the hardware store. 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.320 This was not a mystery to his lawyer. David didn't 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.399 know it. David didn't know any of that evidence. He 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:03.040 was ever told. 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:04.920 But the lawyer had the police reports, and he could 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.400 have offered evidence of someone else's involvement. 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:12.199 And start shaping the jury for what you expect to 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.840 the jury to hear, because I mean here, obviously they 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.000 have to contest the confession. They have to start laying 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.000 the groundwork for that, and then the jury understand that 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.880 there's so much other evidence that goes to David's actual innocence. 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:28.919 And he does not even bother to make those arguments 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.240 in the opening statement. He just chooses not to make 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:31.760 it one. 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.240 And we ended up getting as part of our investigation 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:36.520 this guy's billing records because he was what was called 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:39.639 AT and B so where you get paid by the 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.640 government on an hourly basis to do the case even 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:45.560 though you're not legal AID legally cannot handle homicide cases 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.320 in New York. So ATMB panel gets the homicide cases. 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:52.200 So we know what he did because I have his hours, 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:54.879 and I'll tell you people put more hours in on 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:56.840 a shop lift, Jason. This guy never went to the 0:23:56.880 --> 0:24:00.639 crime scene, he never interviewed witnesses. He met once with 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:03.400 his investigator, who we ended up finding out was very diligent. 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:06.159 He never visited Rikers, So we have the proof that 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:09.040 he never visited David's. That's as David's word, because he 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.640 built for it. And as Eric knows from experience, when 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:13.760 you get on ateen B and you're a private lawyer, 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:16.400 a lot of times your bill is limited. The judge 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:18.600 won't let you spend ten thousand dollars shoplifting case. But 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:20.439 when you have a homicide case, that's where eighteen B 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:23.240 lawyers make their money. A judge will never say you 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:25.320 shouldn't have gone to the scene three times. A judge 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:28.160 will never restrain you on a murder case from spending 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:30.840 time on the case. So normally you see an a 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:33.280 eighteen B bill on a homicide case, it's pages, and 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:36.720 I'm talking pages and pages and pages long. This was 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:42.040 one page about a third field of entries on the 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.600 case and just have never seen anything like it. It 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:49.840 was the most disgusting, disgusting, terrible representation. Wait listen, just 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.080 to put the nail in his coffin, because fortunately he's gone. 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:56.359 I found the investigator. The guy was still alive, and 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.280 older guy's seventy six years old, Anthony Cordero. He had 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:01.760 developed the same theory that we did, we didn't know it, 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:05.359 which was that the police those two guys had a relationship, 0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:08.320 not above board relationship, and that's why they had to 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:10.680 turn away from those two guys that they found in 0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:12.520 that Queen's priests because he was going to point back 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:16.719 to the police officer involved. So he was working on that, 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:18.920 and then he said to me, you know, I remember now, 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.280 I used to pick up Murto that's his name, because 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:24.520 he lived in Brooklyn. I lived in a Long Island. When 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:25.960 I would drive to court, he'd say, can you do 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:27.480 me a favorite? Pick me up on your way in. 0:25:28.080 --> 0:25:30.439 And every morning when I picked him up, he was 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.840 in his kitchen with a bottle of cheap vodka and 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:36.399 a toll glass of ice, and he would offer me 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:38.760 a drink and I would say, mister Murdle, it's eight 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:40.400 thirty in the morning. I don't drink at eight thirty 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:43.200 in the morning, and he'd have a drink and sometimes 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:46.320 two glasses of vodka before getting in the car and 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:48.320 going to try David's case. 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:50.080 It starts to sound like a lynching. 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:52.720 It was a travesty, is what it was. It was 0:25:52.760 --> 0:25:55.119 a total travesty. And you know, it's not easy to 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:56.919 say when I speak at bar groups a lot of 0:25:56.960 --> 0:26:00.840 times about rome for convictions, but bad lawyering and not 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:05.199 having qualified attorneys represent those people who are accused of 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:07.520 these crimes is a big cause. It's easy to blame 0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:11.120 over zealous prosecutors and all of that, but the defense 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:15.440 bar has a lot of guilt on these wrawful convictions. 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:18.080 And David, you don't have any knowledge of all this 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:21.520 stuff that's going on, that your lawyers are drunk, that 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:24.359 he hasn't done any work, that none of this stuff 0:26:24.400 --> 0:26:26.960 that is supposed to be there to protect you is 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:30.240 operating for you. It's all actually working against you. But 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:33.560 yet you remained optimistic. The jury goes out and they 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:36.800 come back and they find you guilty. I mean that moment, 0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:39.600 can you walk us through that? 0:26:40.119 --> 0:26:40.399 Sure? 0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:43.239 So for me leaving in the system, still believing that 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:45.720 I had truth on my side, still believing that the 0:26:45.760 --> 0:26:47.960 jury is going to find both Willy and I not guilty. 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:50.440 So when the verdict came in, I was sitting, of course, 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:52.000 back into the book, and they are ready call us 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:55.440 out to the courtroom and they read the verdicant and 0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:58.560 they said guilty. I was initially stunned, but I had 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:00.480 to make sure that a Hilma can POI and not 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:02.920 only for myself, but I had my mother sitting in 0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:04.600 the back of the court room. I didn't want her 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:06.760 to see my reaction, and I also didn't want to 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:09.680 turn around to see hers because that would have probably 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:12.119 got me very, very upset. So what I tried to 0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:14.160 do is I tried to sort of have a sort 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:17.119 of even killed straight face. But I was really, really 0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:19.520 I was in disbelief because I really had my heart 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:22.480 set on not guilty verdict. So when they actually came 0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:24.399 back into that Willie and I were actually guilty of 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:27.520 killing this person, I was also in a state of disbelief. 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:29.240 But it more importantly for me, I think I was 0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:31.240 more concerned about my family at that time, who was 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:33.679 in court on a daily basis, you know, supported me 0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:35.840 and that sort of thing. Because, for example, one thing 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.600 my mother said to me the very first time she 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:40.600 even mentioned a case for me, like when I was 0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:42.200 in a precinct. The very next day I went to 0:27:42.240 --> 0:27:44.199 court and she asked me, she said, David, you know, 0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:46.480 did you commit this crime? And I said, no, mind 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:48.960 did not. So that that conversation or questions never came 0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:53.080 up again throughout this whole entire experience. So that and 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:56.439 of itself allowed me some confidence that, you know, my 0:27:56.480 --> 0:27:58.520 mom believed in me, she believed what I said to her. 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:01.280 So when this verdict was rare, I just couldn't find 0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:03.040 myself to turn around and look at it because I 0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:05.679 just know that, you know, she was hurting obviously, and 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:07.840 just for me to see that that it would have 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:09.600 got some kind of reaction out of me, not sort 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:11.680 of in a volatile way, but in a I mean 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.200 I probably would have got over emotional, and that's something 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:15.640 they want to do at that particular time. 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:16.880 So I just sort of help my. 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:19.600 Compolsion just just you know, just walked out of the 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:21.600 courtroom after the verdicts were read, and I was able, 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:23.879 of course, to you know, call her on the telephone 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:25.720 that protected that night and talk to her and sold 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:27.679 try to calm it down and try to let her 0:28:27.720 --> 0:28:29.280 know everything was going to be fine. This thing is 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:31.199 going to work itself out. You know, the truth is 0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:33.359 eventually going to come to light. And just to have patience, 0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:36.040 something she always told me to do. Just have patience. 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:38.160 So that was the best way I tried to deal 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:41.160 with such a it what can best be described as 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:43.400 a really tragic event. 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:48.880 And Willly Stucky was convicted as well, and as we know, 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:52.040 he never got out of jail. He passed away in 0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:52.960 two thousand and one. 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:55.920 Yeah, and let's talk about that for a second. So Willie, 0:28:55.960 --> 0:28:58.600 you're code defendant who was equally let down by the 0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:01.560 system and a lot of the same things that you did, 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:04.960 and unbelievably had a heart attack at thirty one years 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:07.959 old in prison and died, never got to have his 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:11.479 day in court and his freedom again. So it's just 0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:14.160 another tragic aspect of this horrible case. 0:29:14.480 --> 0:29:16.600 And when we were going back to his family, his family, 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:18.160 even when we were starting to look at the case, 0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:20.640 they were almost afraid. They were like, you know, I 0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:22.680 don't know that we want to look into this. I 0:29:22.720 --> 0:29:24.520 don't know that they were prepared to try to think 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:28.200 about They would rather just you know, I don't want 0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:28.800 to talk about it. 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:29.920 I don't want to think about it. 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:32.720 And at first that was kind of shocked by that, 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:35.280 but almost in some way that would almost be worse 0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:38.400 for them to then find out that obviously they believed 0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:40.320 in him, but now that there was proof there, there 0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:42.800 was all this stuff that could have been done. It's 0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:45.680 like a second death when you think about how wasteful 0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:48.480 it is. And you know, the correctional facility never even 0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:51.200 really told them. If they say heart attack, but everyone 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:54.280 dies of a heart attack, Okay, it's just cardiac arrest. 0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:55.720 They'll tell how. 0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:58.960 Did he die, what caused it? And they heard different stories. 0:29:59.360 --> 0:30:02.160 A bad time to let the sepsis, you know, had 0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:05.280 a heart attack in the yard. They had so many questions, 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:09.120 and I think they were just afraid to look under 0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:11.800 the rock and see that it was such a waste 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:22.800 of a life. 0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:28.400 I'm going to ask you Eric a very difficult question, 0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:32.320 which is that in this particular case, so many things 0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:35.720 didn't make any sense right because of the nature of 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:39.760 this crime, very violent, with the kidnapping and the driving 0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:41.920 all over and the holding the guy down at gunpoint 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:43.640 in the backseat, and everything else that went on in 0:30:43.680 --> 0:30:47.200 the murder, you would have to know that a couple 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:49.720 of kids who didn't have a history of trouble, this 0:30:49.760 --> 0:30:51.440 would not be the first crist It wouldn't be your 0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:55.880 starter crime, right, so I would think, But I want 0:30:55.880 --> 0:30:59.680 your opinion that the prosecutor probably knew they were innocent too. 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:02.040 Do you think the prosecutor ever had a thought, well, 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:04.040 this doesn't really make any sense when I'm just going 0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:05.760 to go ahead and do my job anyway, and just 0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:07.360 well not even do my job. I'm just going to 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.200 go ahead and get this conviction and keep it moving. 0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:14.920 Yeah, I have to believe that the prosecutor did not. 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:18.480 I have to believe, as the district attorney that a 0:31:18.600 --> 0:31:22.800 person who's sworn to uphold the law. You know, one 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:27.000 of the things that I've said publicly about prosecutors is 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:32.120 that prosecutors have a way of trying to synthesize evidence 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:36.240 to make things holes in their cases close and to 0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:40.720 close reasonable doubt before juries, and they become trained to 0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:44.880 think that way and sometimes the humanity of being a 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:49.000 prosecutor and thinking about this because you know, listen, for me, 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:53.000 I grew up in East New York and Brooklyn, roughly 0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.440 maybe a year or two younger than David. But the 0:31:56.520 --> 0:32:00.520 thought of me traveling at that age into Ozelon Park 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:02.880 under the time that we lived in New York City 0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:06.800 in the eighties is not something that a black kids 0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:09.160 would do at that time who had never been in 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:12.560 that neighborhood before the middle They stand out and it's 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:16.120 very important because we mentioned this, but the two gentlemen 0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:19.320 that were there in Queens did not fit the physical 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:23.600 descriptions of either David or Willie. So you ask, how 0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:26.960 can a prosecutor go forward on this case? And I 0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:30.280 think that you start to believe in your own theory 0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:34.200 of the case. And prosecutors and detectives, I think too 0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:38.600 often they get a suspect, they have some evidence right here, 0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:41.200 they had the confession, and so you have a prosecutor 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:46.080 who's not thinking anything differently than an ordinary person. He's confessed, 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:50.440 they have some evidence. You have these conversations with the detective, 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:54.600 and the grand jury has now indicted the case. And 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:58.080 what I'm really critical about and what I tell my prosecutors, 0:32:58.080 --> 0:33:00.800 and this is one of the important way work of 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:04.040 the Conviction Review Unit is that in the eighties and 0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:07.640 the nineties, I became a prosecutor in the nineties there 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:10.320 was so much crime, and so much violent crime that 0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:13.640 often it was let the juries decide and let the 0:33:13.720 --> 0:33:16.880 jury decide whether someone is innocent or guilty. And I 0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:21.440 think that was a complete abdication of our responsibility to 0:33:21.520 --> 0:33:22.240 do justice. 0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:24.680 If a prosecutor. 0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:27.880 Cannot believe in their case, they have no business bringing it. 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:30.760 And one of the things that I instruct the Brooklyn 0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.880 das now is if you have doubt about your case, 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:37.240 you should not be trying that case, and let's look 0:33:37.240 --> 0:33:40.520 at the case. But when I came up as a prosecutor, 0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:43.000 I will tell you that often it says, well, there's 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:46.400 twelve people in the box, let them decide guilty or innocence. 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:49.400 And so I think in some cases, and I'm not 0:33:49.440 --> 0:33:52.160 saying in David's case or Willie's case, but in some 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:54.480 cases prosecutors just said, well, we're going to let the 0:33:54.520 --> 0:33:57.080 jury's decide it. And that's wrong, and that's not going 0:33:57.120 --> 0:33:59.040 to happen again. It can happen again, not. 0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:00.800 Going to happen again in Brooklyn for the next four years. 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:02.520 I know that much because we got you in there, 0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:08.440 which is great. So, David, you seem like a very composed, thoughtful, 0:34:08.719 --> 0:34:11.640 decent man, who has a From what I can tell 0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:13.880 knowing you a short time that I have a positive 0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:18.640 outlook on life. How the fuck does somebody survive twenty 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:22.280 nine years in a maximum security prison and come out? 0:34:22.520 --> 0:34:24.400 And because when you came out you'd never been on 0:34:24.440 --> 0:34:27.640 an airplane, you didn't know I mean a phone. The 0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:29.200 phone used to be a thing with a cord that 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:30.160 was stuck to the wall. 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:31.600 Right, that's absolutely correct. 0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:35.000 Yeah, So how the hell did you first of all, 0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:38.360 survive as an innocent man in prison for almost three decades? 0:34:39.400 --> 0:34:42.800 And then how has it been coming out? And how 0:34:42.840 --> 0:34:45.760 have you managed to become the man that you are now? 0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:48.719 Oh wow, Well, thanks for the very kind words. And 0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:50.600 I think for me on that a lot of things 0:34:50.920 --> 0:34:54.120 fortunately working in my favor. So, for one, I always 0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:56.200 always knew that Willie and I were innocent, so the 0:34:56.239 --> 0:35:00.319 truth always believed it couldn't be compromisive for that respect. Also, 0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:02.560 I have an older sister who's disabled. You know, she 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:05.279 has cerebal palsy. She was born without a spine. Her 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:08.640 name was Ella. She's been bedridden her entire life. So 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:11.680 anytime something would happen in prison, anytime I would feel 0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:13.479 a particular way in prison, I would always think about 0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:16.840 my sister because she was she was really inspiration for 0:35:16.920 --> 0:35:19.840 someone like myself who was also going through some difficult times, 0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:22.759 but in my mind, not as difficult as she had been, 0:35:22.840 --> 0:35:25.319 so she was I drew inspiration from her, and of 0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:28.200 course my mom, who never wavered in believing in me 0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:30.719 from the very beginning to the very end, you know. 0:35:30.760 --> 0:35:32.640 So I had those things in my favor. But then 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:35.000 as time grew on, of course, I was able to 0:35:35.040 --> 0:35:37.520 develop a really good support system. And so what I 0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:39.480 mean by that is a really good attorney and Oscar 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:42.640 michelind because Ruber and Hurricane Carter came into my life 0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:44.960 at a time where I really needed him the most, 0:35:45.360 --> 0:35:47.520 so when I had all the whole bulk of other 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:50.520 friends who factored into my life as well. So I would, 0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:52.520 you know, get visits in prison this sort of thing, 0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:54.480 and I mean some of the visits that were that 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:55.960 I would get. We would just talk about things that 0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:59.160 would happen on the outside. Because one thing Ruben instilled 0:35:59.200 --> 0:36:00.680 in me, and he said it was very important that 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:03.000 I think this way is sort of think outside of 0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:05.800 prison and put myself outside of prison, at least spiritually. 0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:07.759 And that's what I tried to do, and I found 0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:10.319 that once I started doing that, I started sort of 0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:13.160 like just feeling much better about a lot of different things. 0:36:13.200 --> 0:36:15.279 And so when things of course got tough, as they 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.400 often did in prison, at least in my experience, I 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:20.360 thought about all the people that I came into my 0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:21.960 life of course by the time, and I needed them 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:24.560 the most. And that was really beneficial for someone like me, 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:27.640 because in prison it made so not afford the sort 0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:30.360 of a latitude and blessing that I were given. So 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:33.280 I never took it for granted from that regard. But again, 0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:36.360 the fact that I can see me here and be humble, 0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:39.600 I hope is really the testament of other people coming 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:42.440 into my life, not just David McCallum himself. 0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:47.279 David, it's an exceptional man. I was immediately touched when 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:50.000 I met him. I know Ken Thompson was as well. 0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:53.840 We had David come to the office and talk to 0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:58.319 our young interns and make sure that our people who 0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:02.400 want to be prosecutors understood what happened to him. David 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:06.080 is just an exceptional man, and I know that we've 0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.480 done it before, but as the District Attorney of Brooklyn, 0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:11.600 I apologize to you, brother for what happened to you, 0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:13.120 for how the system lets you down. 0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:14.480 Thank you much about. 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:16.919 That that As a New Yorker and a human being, 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:20.560 I'm gonna add my apologies because we let you down, 0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:23.720 I mean, everybody let you down. But you're here, yes, 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.160 and that's a great thing. I mean, I'm thrilled to 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:26.600 have you here. 0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:27.320 Thank you. 0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:31.920 You mentioned Ruben Hurricane Carter right, Yes, a legend not 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:36.880 only for his boxing abilities, the former number one middleweight contender, 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:40.440 immortalized in the Bob Dylan song. But how did he 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:44.080 come to find out about your case and get involved 0:37:44.120 --> 0:37:46.239 and then write a letter that really helped tip the 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:47.120 scales for you? Right? 0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:50.080 Well, yeah, thank you for asking that question. That was 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:52.560 actually the foundation of how really all this really began. 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:55.359 I mean, look, I started a letter writing campaign long 0:37:55.440 --> 0:37:58.600 after my state and federal appeals were exhausted, because at 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:00.880 that particular time of that have any able legal recourts 0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:03.040 other than the post conviction motion. Then with that, you 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.320 normally have to present Newt's govern evidence, which I didn't 0:38:06.320 --> 0:38:09.160 have that at that time obviously. So when I started 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:10.919 my letter writing campaign, I was sitting in a place 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.440 called Eastern correctional facility, and I was a law clerk 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:15.319 in the low library and a friend of mine named 0:38:15.360 --> 0:38:17.640 Eric Coleman was reading this magazine called The Sun. 0:38:18.160 --> 0:38:20.520 Some magazine is like a literal magazine where it has a. 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:22.400 Lot of like short stories and that that it may 0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:25.239 soften read in poems and stuff like that, where it 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:27.560 may so often, you know, recite it not necesly to 0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:30.400 themselves but to other inmates for example. So what I 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:32.560 had no real really had no real intention of reading 0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:34.120 the magazine. All I simply they wanted to do is 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:35.680 to sort of peruse it. So because I want to 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:37.120 go back to my house in units to get ready, 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.160 you know, for the next day. So I got this 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:41.319 magazine and I thumbed through the pages and I came 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:43.880 across the injin of view with Ken Klosky in Ruben 0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:46.600 Hurricane Carter. So I knew who Ruben Hurricane Carter was. 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:48.960 I know he was a former prize fighter. I know 0:38:49.040 --> 0:38:50.920 he had spent nineteen years in prison for a triple 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:53.759 homicide in Pattison, New Jersey, and that sort of thing. 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:56.759 So I wrote Ken Klosky letter hoping that he can 0:38:56.800 --> 0:38:59.280 get me in touch with Ruben so and That's pretty 0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:02.560 much how this whole story sort of evolved into basically 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:05.759 where I'm actually sitting there now because once I was able, 0:39:05.960 --> 0:39:07.839 kin Klowski was able to get me in cont touch 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:09.640 with Ruben. I had an opportunity to meet Ruben on 0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:12.560 several occasions. He became sort of a mentor for me. 0:39:12.640 --> 0:39:16.279 We had very intense conversations on the telephone. Ruben was 0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:19.200 a very intense individual and that sort of thing. So 0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:21.719 once Kim was able to put me in touch with him, 0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.760 that really set the stage for me meeting other people 0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:27.279 that came into my life too and basically sort of 0:39:27.280 --> 0:39:30.720 prepared me. So when Ruben's were was when I actually 0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:33.279 eventually got out, not there for the movement was sort 0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:36.279 of a positive individual that way, So meeting all these 0:39:36.320 --> 0:39:38.920 people sort of set the stage for preparation for me 0:39:38.960 --> 0:39:40.399 to get out. So when I got out, of course, 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:43.080 I was shocked at some of the things that I 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:46.719 saw initially, but I wasn't overly shocked about a lot 0:39:46.760 --> 0:39:49.439 of things because again, meeting all these individuals who shared 0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:52.080 their stories with me about travels and stuff like that, 0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:55.120 that allowed me to get a sense of what society 0:39:55.160 --> 0:39:58.279 would be like if got out of prison and that 0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:00.520 sort of thing. So I was kind of prepared, it's 0:40:00.680 --> 0:40:02.919 but in a lot of ways, I was not prepared. 0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:04.840 To be honest with youself. This was also the ad 0:40:04.880 --> 0:40:06.880 points of having a really really good support system. 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:09.400 You're not a person that gives up easy, are you? 0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:09.640 No? 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:12.800 I mean, you know, what's my state filler appills were exhausted. 0:40:13.400 --> 0:40:15.640 But I just kept thinking about my family, for example, 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:18.440 and at that time, Uli Suckyn. Of course he was 0:40:18.800 --> 0:40:21.279 he was still among us, but we had lost communication 0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:23.439 for a while. So I just wanted to just someone 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:25.239 to fight, not necessarily for myself, but for the both 0:40:25.239 --> 0:40:25.560 of us. 0:40:26.280 --> 0:40:29.799 Ruben was forced to be reckoned with. I had just 0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:33.440 done my first exoneration, a guy named Angelo Martinez, and 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:35.799 back in the in those days, it was a very 0:40:35.920 --> 0:40:37.719 rare event, so there was a lot of press, a lot. 0:40:37.640 --> 0:40:38.560 Of media about it. 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:42.359 And about a week two weeks later, my secretary says, 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:45.959 there's a phone call for you. It's Rubin Hurricane Carter 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.319 on the phone. So I said, it's one of my 0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:51.080 idiot friends from the Bronx, just trying to bust my chops, 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:51.399 you know. 0:40:52.360 --> 0:40:54.560 I said, I said, all right, put it through. I said, 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:55.439 so what do you want? 0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:59.319 And he said, hello, this is doctor Carter, and I 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:01.359 wanted to actually in the case. I want to talk 0:41:01.400 --> 0:41:05.000 to you about your next case. And I said, what 0:41:05.400 --> 0:41:06.719 are you talking about. I could have believe it was 0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:10.040 actually the hurricane like you, Jason, I mean that song, 0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:11.399 that story is. 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:12.719 Legend right, I mean, you know. 0:41:13.680 --> 0:41:15.840 And he said, I'm going to send you this file. 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:19.399 We need a lawyer in New York, and I want 0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:20.879 you to look at the file and call me when 0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:22.520 you're done and what you think about the case. So 0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:24.320 I called him back after I looked at the file. 0:41:24.800 --> 0:41:26.440 I said, this guy got the worst trial I've ever 0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:29.520 seen in my life. This guy's trial was horrific. He 0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:33.080 should never have been convicted. So Rubin said, yeah, but 0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:36.440 do you think he's innocent? And I said, I don't know. 0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:39.480 I didn't really look at it, you know, from that aspect. 0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:41.920 He said, well, call me back when you've looked at 0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:43.680 me from an aspect, because I'm not interested in a 0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:46.800 procedural error. I want to establish this guy is innocent. 0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:50.040 So then I went back and looked over everything, and 0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:52.960 then I found some inconsistencies almost immediately in the confession, 0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:55.520 one of which was the thing that the lynchpin really 0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:58.680 to the whole wrongful conviction. And I called him and said, 0:41:58.880 --> 0:42:00.879 neither of these guys did it. And he said, okay, 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:03.399 I'm coming down to New York. Let's go visit him. 0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:07.200 And I said, okay. And as you could tell anybody 0:42:07.239 --> 0:42:09.719 who meets David, you know, you're five minutes into it, 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:11.840 You're like, this guy's not a murderer. 0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:12.960 This guy was never a murderer. 0:42:13.239 --> 0:42:16.560 And we spent a lot of time that day with David, 0:42:16.719 --> 0:42:20.080 and then we brainstormed after it. But Rubin was the 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:23.440 one who got his name, helped us get the leading 0:42:23.440 --> 0:42:26.520 false confession expert on the case, a guy named Steve Drizzen. 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:30.319 He helped us get Laura Cohen from Rucers University and 0:42:30.360 --> 0:42:33.440 her students to help Dave with the parole piece, and 0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:38.319 then they became involved in the reinvestigation as well. And 0:42:38.920 --> 0:42:42.799 his letter to the Daily News moved the case to 0:42:42.880 --> 0:42:46.240 the top of the pile. And I don't think David 0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:48.680 would have been here if Ruben hadn't gotten into his life, 0:42:48.960 --> 0:42:51.680 or frankly, David hadn't just decided to pick up the 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:52.719 Sun magazine that day. 0:42:53.080 --> 0:42:54.279 How many times do you think about that. 0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:56.360 I think about that a lot, because I had plenty 0:42:56.360 --> 0:42:58.040 of opportunities to say, you know what, I'm just going 0:42:58.080 --> 0:42:59.840 to go back early tonight. You know, I'm not going 0:42:59.920 --> 0:43:01.600 to stay around. I'm not going to stick around. I 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:03.520 didn't have any any more work to do that particular 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:05.920 nights he worked in a law lit Yeah, so it 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:07.600 would have been very easy for me to just sort 0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:09.360 of shut it down early, which I did at times, 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:11.040 you know, we feeling tired, that sort of thing. 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:12.600 You want to kind of and then you know, in 0:43:12.600 --> 0:43:16.720 two thousand and thirteen Brooklyn elected Ken Thompson. 0:43:16.960 --> 0:43:18.319 Well, I have a story about that. 0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:22.680 And you have to have a prosecutor who's willing to 0:43:22.719 --> 0:43:27.040 take a case that's, you know, thirty years old and say, yeah, 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:30.040 we're going to actually take a look at it, reinvestigate it, 0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:33.560 reopen it. Because we know that prosecutors are loath to 0:43:33.600 --> 0:43:36.839 do that across the United States, and in fact, even 0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:39.840 in the Brooklyn DA's office, the answer had been previously know. 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:42.120 And I'm glad he mentioned that because I remember in 0:43:42.160 --> 0:43:45.600 twenty thirteen when during the campaign, when Ken Thompson was 0:43:45.760 --> 0:43:48.239 he was campaigning, and so that time I was at 0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:50.879 a place called Otisville. So that's a medium correction for city. 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:53.880 It's like a place like basically made up of dormitory. 0:43:53.920 --> 0:43:55.799 So I remember staying up late at night just trying 0:43:55.800 --> 0:43:58.080 to hear any sort of campaign news that I could, because, 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:00.319 you know, I want I wanted this guy to when 0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:03.200 not because it would guarantee an any freedom or anything 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:06.360 like that. Well, at least we will guarantee change, and 0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:09.240 people like myself in that situation, all I really wanted 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:11.480 was an opportunity, and all as a legal team, all 0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:14.080 we really wanted was an opportunity, a fair chance, you know, 0:44:14.120 --> 0:44:16.840 to have our case heard, because under the previous regime, 0:44:16.880 --> 0:44:19.200 we really believed that we wasn't, you know, given a 0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:21.400 fair opportunity to present our case in a way that 0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:24.480 we that we needed to. So when Sir Thompson eventually 0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:26.960 got itighted, I know that he made some campaign promises 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:29.759 that he would investigate wrong for convictions thoroughly and that 0:44:29.840 --> 0:44:32.359 sort of thing. And once I heard that, I really 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:35.440 was really I was emotionally I cried a lot, because 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.600 that's what you want to hear, especially someone in my position. 0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:39.920 You just want someone to say, you know what, we're 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:41.960 going to do this thing fairly, and however it would 0:44:42.000 --> 0:44:43.600 have turned out after that, of course I would have 0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:46.399 been disappointed, but at least I would have known that 0:44:46.440 --> 0:44:50.160 this individual delivered on a promise on the campaign promise 0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:54.279 that some individuals don't normally do under those circumstances. So 0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:58.120 when he became the attorney, I think the people of 0:44:58.160 --> 0:45:01.480 Brooklyn can attest to this. That really change the dynamics 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:03.719 of the I think the criminals as a system in 0:45:04.120 --> 0:45:05.400 general an impression. 0:45:05.440 --> 0:45:09.799 We've vacated well under his tenure, twenty one cases in 0:45:10.080 --> 0:45:12.120 destroyed period of time that I've been serving as the 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:16.120 acting DA. I've vacated two additional cases who are up 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:18.880 to twenty three cases, and the work of our conviction 0:45:18.960 --> 0:45:21.680 review unit is ongoing and there's much more work to 0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:22.040 be done. 0:45:22.160 --> 0:45:24.759 Well, you have a real dedicated team, right, I mean 0:45:24.760 --> 0:45:27.040 in some of these convicted review units around the country, 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:29.960 they have one part time guy or whatever, and you 0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:32.600 have a ten detectives assigned to this. 0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:37.439 We have full time prosecutors who only handle these reinvestigations. 0:45:37.880 --> 0:45:41.440 Currently we have nine full time prosecutors and we have 0:45:41.520 --> 0:45:45.160 full time detectives. We have full time paralegals. It's a 0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:50.320 many law firm that's working on reviewing cases of wrongful conviction. 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:51.600 It's simply a model. 0:45:51.760 --> 0:45:54.120 There really is no other word for it, and no 0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:56.799 other place has replicated it. No place has tried to 0:45:56.840 --> 0:46:00.319 replicate it. And you know, I knew Ken from Gating. 0:46:00.320 --> 0:46:02.480 We were adversaries on a couple of big cases against 0:46:02.480 --> 0:46:05.399 each other. When he got elected DA, I called him 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:06.960 and said, I got talked about this case because we 0:46:07.000 --> 0:46:11.080 had been rebuffed countless times by Joe Hines's office. We 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:12.759 were told, come back to us when you get the 0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:15.319 real killers. And I said, I thought, that's your job. 0:46:15.760 --> 0:46:17.239 You know I'm not here to catch the real killers. 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:18.680 I'm here to show you that this guy and his 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:21.680 co defender of innocent. And he said, wait till you 0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:25.320 see what we're gonna do. Okay, call me in January, 0:46:25.360 --> 0:46:27.239 call me in February. And I said, I'll give you 0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:28.960 some time, but you really got to look at this case. 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.720 He said, done, just call me. And I never expected 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:35.399 him to do the breath that he did, and him 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.439 and Eric developed this unit that was second to none. 0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:41.200 The standard that Ken said was is it a conviction 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:43.520 I could live up to? I don't care whether he 0:46:43.600 --> 0:46:46.080 already made this argument. I don't care whether anybody else 0:46:46.080 --> 0:46:48.279 has already looked at it. I want to be able 0:46:48.320 --> 0:46:51.040 to stand by this conviction. That's the tone that Eric said. 0:46:51.160 --> 0:46:53.799 Also because he helped develop the unit with Ken, and 0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:56.600 he put him directly on David's case. And I remember 0:46:56.680 --> 0:46:59.640 telling him, I said, you were the only elected official, Ken, 0:46:59.719 --> 0:47:02.480 that I can think of in modern history who got 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:07.560 elected promising more rights to the criminally accused. Every other 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:11.560 prosecutor before Ken was tough on crime. I'm going to 0:47:11.640 --> 0:47:15.320 lock them up, I'm going to stafe streets, war on drugs. 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:18.080 And this was the first guy who said I'm going 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:20.719 to try to reform the system, and he put his 0:47:20.719 --> 0:47:22.560 money where his mouth is. Like you said, I couldn't 0:47:22.560 --> 0:47:24.120 believe it when I went up and saw the unit. 0:47:24.440 --> 0:47:26.959 By the way, there's nothing that helps public safety about 0:47:27.000 --> 0:47:29.800 convicting the wrong guys. In fact, that's the opposite effect. 0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:46.240 So let me ask were the real perpetrators ever caught 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:49.720 in this case? Because if not, then that's another crime 0:47:49.880 --> 0:47:52.040 against society, right right. 0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:53.359 I mean, one of the things that no one thinks 0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.040 about a wonful conviction is if the conviction was wrongful, 0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:57.920 it means that the people who actually committed this. 0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:00.719 Crime are still out there, and the people who come. 0:48:00.600 --> 0:48:03.200 Into this crime, unless they're in prison for other things 0:48:03.200 --> 0:48:05.080 they've done since, or who're still. 0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:08.360 Out there, they've never been held accountable. But we believe 0:48:08.960 --> 0:48:11.759 that we know who did this crime, and there is 0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:15.040 no statute of limitations, and if the evidence can never 0:48:15.480 --> 0:48:18.680 be brought and I'm in office, I will bring that case. 0:48:19.719 --> 0:48:22.439 Yeah, I think all of us would like to see 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:26.080 these guys brought to justice because these are dangerous, scary 0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:29.839 individuals who committed a really terrible crime and got away 0:48:29.840 --> 0:48:33.160 with it. What was the moment when you found out 0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:34.399 that you were going home? 0:48:34.600 --> 0:48:37.040 Sure, guiny motion was substance, So please excuse me on 0:48:37.080 --> 0:48:38.480 that one. My correction. 0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:41.360 Counselor will see the telephone call from Oscar Michelin and 0:48:41.440 --> 0:48:44.680 Laura Colin, and I was summoned to her office to 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:47.240 speak to them. And so when I got on the phone, 0:48:47.600 --> 0:48:51.799 Oscar pretty much said to me that you're going to 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:54.120 be coming to court the next day. I believe it 0:48:54.160 --> 0:48:58.319 was Wednesday, as a matter of fact. And when he 0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:00.759 and Laura said that to me, it is not that 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:04.920 I didn't believe them, it's that for me, for some 0:49:05.120 --> 0:49:07.520 I just wanted to get to court and hear the 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:12.040 judge actually say the words that their convention is going 0:49:12.120 --> 0:49:16.360 to be vacated. And I remember leaving my Correctional Counselor's 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:19.319 office that afternoon, walking back up the hill to my 0:49:19.320 --> 0:49:23.400 housing unit, really crying, and in some ways really didn't 0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:25.640 know you know what I was crying about. It's because 0:49:25.640 --> 0:49:28.560 I was. I mean, I had a lot of mixed emotions. 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.400 Not that I necessarily didn't think that I was going 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:34.400 to go home, but the fact that I was going 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:36.680 to be going to court and something big was going 0:49:36.760 --> 0:49:40.840 to happen. So from that standpoint, I was like on 0:49:41.040 --> 0:49:43.560 pins and needles for the rest of the night. And 0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:46.080 on that particular night, for example, I didn't go to 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:48.640 sleep because I just simply couldn't. I just kept thinking 0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:51.520 about the very next day when I was asked to 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:53.120 pack up my stuff and I was. 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:53.840 Going to court. 0:49:54.520 --> 0:49:56.560 And so for me, what I did was when I 0:49:56.600 --> 0:49:58.960 packed up my stuff and getting ready to go to court, 0:49:59.040 --> 0:50:01.160 I gave a lot of my stuf up away, not 0:50:01.200 --> 0:50:04.840 necessarily knowing specifically that I was gonna be coming back, 0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:07.239 but I just I just felt like, you know what, 0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:10.799 I'm gonna I'm gonna give people stuff that I think 0:50:10.840 --> 0:50:13.120 they deserve and they need, and that's what I did. 0:50:13.160 --> 0:50:16.120 So when two investigators from the Brooklyn Districttorney's office came 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:18.719 to pick me up and they put me in a 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:20.879 car and he drove off. They were playing the song 0:50:21.000 --> 0:50:23.799 The Hurricane, and so one of the investigators asked me, 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:25.399 do you know who this guy is? Said, of course, 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:26.680 I know who that guy is. He said, do you 0:50:26.680 --> 0:50:27.960 know what he's singing, and said, of course I know 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:30.680 what he's singing. That's Bob Dylan and he's singing the Hurricane. 0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:32.360 And I thought that was really cool. We had a 0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:34.800 really cool woman with these guys coming down to Brooklyn 0:50:34.840 --> 0:50:37.920 because these guys actually grew up in Brooklyn themselves, these investigators, 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:39.600 and they were just talking to me about how things 0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:43.000 changed in Brooklyn, and so we got downtown. They was 0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:45.600 pointing out certain things to me and it even offered 0:50:45.600 --> 0:50:48.759 me some real food that I've had and had ever 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:51.200 since I've been in concentrated and that sort of thing. 0:50:51.280 --> 0:50:52.960 So it was sort of that kind of moment. And 0:50:53.000 --> 0:50:54.040 when I actually got into. 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:56.560 The courtroom, and well, actually before I got to the 0:50:56.560 --> 0:50:58.839 court room, I was taking them to the Brooklyn Districttorney's 0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:01.600 office and take upstairs and I'm not sure what floor 0:51:01.600 --> 0:51:04.759 I was on, and Ken Thompson came in and he 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:07.520 introduced himself and he told me on certain terms that 0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:09.920 when I walked out of this building to the courthouse, 0:51:10.480 --> 0:51:11.920 that he wanted me to hold my. 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:12.760 Head up high. 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:15.840 And I really appreciated those comments because I think he 0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:17.560 was saying that I'm probably gonna do. I'm going to 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:19.400 be a hack of but because I got hack it 0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:22.440 was on me. Don't look at yourself as as a criminal. 0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:25.640 I think that it was his message. So I did 0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:26.960 what he what he asked me to do, and I 0:51:27.000 --> 0:51:29.040 walked down to the courthouse and we went upstairs and 0:51:29.640 --> 0:51:30.640 eventually went into. 0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:32.480 The courtroom, and I seen all. 0:51:32.320 --> 0:51:34.239 These individuals in there, whether it was the media or 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:35.840 a lot of a lot of people in the courtroom, 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:38.000 of course, and as they would say, you know, the 0:51:38.040 --> 0:51:38.760 rest is history. 0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:41.960 So yeah, and Oscar, your take on this? So when 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:44.480 you called him the night before, did you knew what 0:51:44.600 --> 0:51:46.279 was going to happen the next time? You didn't tell him? 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:49.359 Well, Ken had called me and said, once you come 0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:52.320 down in Columbus day, bring one other member of your team. 0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:55.839 The office was closed except for the interview, and Laura 0:51:55.960 --> 0:51:58.200 Cohen and I met with him and we talked for 0:51:58.200 --> 0:52:00.880 a while, and he said, we're going to do it Wednesday. 0:52:01.440 --> 0:52:03.080 We're going to vacate the conviction, and we're going to 0:52:03.160 --> 0:52:07.440 vacate Willie's conviction also. And you know, it was a 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:11.359 very very emotional obviously, and No, I called and told him. 0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:13.239 I didn't hide anything from him. He just didn't want 0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:14.760 to believe it until he heard the judge. 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:18.680 That's like for years of being beaten down by the system, 0:52:18.760 --> 0:52:20.719 being told no all the time, even during my letter 0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:23.239 writing campaign, for example, so before I actually wrote Cad 0:52:23.320 --> 0:52:27.120 that letter, I wrote hundreds of letters to law firms, newspapers, 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:30.040 New York Times, Daily News, the New York Post, I mean, 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:32.120 all different sort of kind of publication that I wrote, 0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:34.399 some magazine that I wrote. I'm just trying to get 0:52:34.440 --> 0:52:36.359 some help, you know, because at that time it didn't 0:52:36.360 --> 0:52:39.520 really have any So again, it was not a matter 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:43.520 of not necessarily believe in them, because I really had 0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:45.360 no reason not to believe them. It's just that I 0:52:45.480 --> 0:52:48.480 just I just wanted to hear this judge say that man, 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:52.200 and this everything in my life had come to up 0:52:52.320 --> 0:52:54.880 to that point where I just sort of culminated to 0:52:54.960 --> 0:52:58.040 that one moment and the fact that when I got 0:52:58.080 --> 0:53:01.279 into the courtroom, and actually prior to me getting in 0:53:01.280 --> 0:53:03.879 the courtroom, I had a conversation with Willie Stucky's mom 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:07.640 and I recall her very specifically saying to me, you know, 0:53:07.680 --> 0:53:11.919 you're my son now, and those words resonated me with 0:53:11.960 --> 0:53:15.680 me in a way that I'll never forget. And so 0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:20.600 when the judge, of course, the da and Oscar was 0:53:20.640 --> 0:53:22.719 in the courtroom and the judge finally you know, of 0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:26.359 course made this decision, I just hugged her and I 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:28.680 just looked at her. It was a very very bittersweet 0:53:28.680 --> 0:53:31.320 moment for me because at that time, I'm thinking to myself, 0:53:31.320 --> 0:53:32.600 you know, here I am going to be walking out 0:53:32.640 --> 0:53:35.040 of the courtroom very happy, but very sad at the 0:53:35.040 --> 0:53:37.319 same time, because Willie Stucky, you should have been walking 0:53:37.320 --> 0:53:39.200 out out of this very courtroom. 0:53:38.760 --> 0:53:42.040 With me, and having sat in the first row in 0:53:42.080 --> 0:53:43.080 that courtroom. 0:53:43.480 --> 0:53:45.600 There were a lot of wet eyes all throughout. 0:53:45.719 --> 0:53:50.600 But it was a very emotional moment, the sense that 0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:54.040 justice was delayed for so many years, but there was 0:53:54.080 --> 0:53:57.080 at least at this moment a reckoning and the reckoning 0:53:57.239 --> 0:54:00.560 that the system had failed, and we've discussed did here. 0:54:01.200 --> 0:54:05.200 It wasn't just a prosecutor or a bad detective. It 0:54:05.239 --> 0:54:09.520 was a systemic failure of the criminal justice system. While 0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:12.879 it was bittersweet for everyone, it was finally that we've 0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:13.920 writed this wrong. 0:54:14.280 --> 0:54:17.880 We have a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is 0:54:17.920 --> 0:54:21.560 that I like to turn the microphone over to you, David, 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:24.359 for closing thoughts, But in this case, because we have 0:54:24.800 --> 0:54:27.360 other special guests here, I'd like to actually do a 0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:31.680 round robin and finish with you. So let's start with Oscar. 0:54:31.920 --> 0:54:34.640 Is there anything else you want to share with our audience. 0:54:35.360 --> 0:54:38.359 No, I just think that for folks out there who 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:42.480 are listening that say what can I do? And I 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:45.319 think the most important thing is to just keep an 0:54:45.320 --> 0:54:48.000 open mind when you read stories about people being arrested, 0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:53.080 serve on a jury, if you're called, demand that your 0:54:53.360 --> 0:54:57.520 criminal justice system, that your prosecutors and police live up 0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:01.200 to these standards that we've talked about today, and for 0:55:01.320 --> 0:55:05.640 those who are prosecutors to follow the model, frankly that 0:55:05.800 --> 0:55:09.040 Brooklyn has set. You know, Ken and then Eric have 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:13.160 followed that. I have not seen replicated throughout the country, 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:17.839 and I just thank everybody, yourself included, because shedding light 0:55:17.880 --> 0:55:19.759 on these things is the only way that we're going 0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:24.040 to avoid these wrongful convictions in the first place. That's 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:27.200 the goal is to develop a criminal justice system that's 0:55:27.480 --> 0:55:31.640 fair to the people, that's fair to the accused, and 0:55:32.000 --> 0:55:35.000 that gets it right more often than it currently does. 0:55:35.040 --> 0:55:38.399 So I appreciate this opportunity to give this information out 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:41.040 to folks, and hopefully they'll take it with them and 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:45.120 remember that when they have the opportunity to somehow affect 0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:47.000 the criminal justice system. 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:50.799 We have an obligation to do justice and not just 0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:55.200 to try to secure convictions. But I also believe that 0:55:55.520 --> 0:55:58.680 part of my job is to protect the innocent, and 0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:03.279 that needs being proact and not just waiting for things 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:05.960 to play out in the courtroom. And so much of 0:56:06.000 --> 0:56:08.080 what I've tried to do in the short period of 0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:11.840 time is I've done things like hired immigration attorneys to 0:56:11.920 --> 0:56:14.839 protect people who are accused of crimes who may have 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:18.239 immigration issues, something that people think is not in the 0:56:18.320 --> 0:56:21.280 role of a prosecutor. But making sure that we protect 0:56:21.280 --> 0:56:24.880 the innocent is important, and we can't lose track of that. 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:29.320 And for David, you should know that every assistant district 0:56:29.400 --> 0:56:34.920 attorney that we've hired now gets taught on false fed facts, 0:56:34.960 --> 0:56:38.279 which were a key lachpin of on your false confession. 0:56:38.640 --> 0:56:43.600 The science of wrongful identifications and false fed facts, and 0:56:44.080 --> 0:56:47.800 these things were things that prosecutors never trained on. And 0:56:48.040 --> 0:56:51.359 when we make these exonerations, the first thing that we 0:56:51.440 --> 0:56:54.719 go back is we do what could we have done differently, 0:56:55.080 --> 0:56:56.839 and we train on it. So I want you to 0:56:56.880 --> 0:57:00.279 know that the generation of prosecutors in my office for 0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:03.400 being trained and they learned about your case when they 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:05.320 learned about you know, a lot of the other people 0:57:05.360 --> 0:57:08.000 we've exonerated. To make sure that this never happens again. 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:09.280 This can't happen again. 0:57:09.840 --> 0:57:12.440 And I'm going to say before turn over to you, David, 0:57:12.480 --> 0:57:15.600 that for everybody listening, vote, go out and vote in 0:57:15.640 --> 0:57:20.560 your district attorney's racist because you can make a difference. So, David, 0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:23.680 now the highlight of the show is just to turn 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:25.840 it over to you for any closing thoughts. 0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:27.920 Okay, yeah, thank you, thank you for that. You know, 0:57:28.080 --> 0:57:30.800 during my twenty nineties in prison, in prison in general, 0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:33.600 the notion is that you know, you should never trust anybody, 0:57:33.960 --> 0:57:36.200 and I guess in a lot of cases that's actually true. 0:57:36.600 --> 0:57:40.960 But for me, I didn't necessarily subscribe to that theory 0:57:41.000 --> 0:57:43.200 because I didn't feel it was appropriate for me, because 0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:44.960 I felt like I was in a position to have 0:57:45.000 --> 0:57:47.840 to trust somebody in order to get where I needed 0:57:47.840 --> 0:57:50.800 to go, and that was home, you know. So I 0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:53.440 really put my faith in a lot of people to 0:57:53.520 --> 0:57:55.760 help me because I really needed to help. I really 0:57:55.800 --> 0:57:58.919 trust me, I really desperately needed to help. And one 0:57:58.920 --> 0:58:01.360 of the things so I do, like public speaking, every 0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:03.320 every once in a while, I'll tell people so with 0:58:03.400 --> 0:58:05.480 the word the politics come up, with all the stuff 0:58:05.480 --> 0:58:08.440 that's happening in our you know, in our country these days. 0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:11.320 I always tell people just believing, believing people. If you 0:58:11.360 --> 0:58:13.600 don't believe in your left and officials to the extent 0:58:13.640 --> 0:58:16.320 that you don't trust him, believe in people, because it's 0:58:16.360 --> 0:58:18.800 the people that surround you who's going to make the difference. 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:21.160 It is going to create the change that's necessary. And 0:58:21.400 --> 0:58:23.760 I know for me, in meeting Ken Thompson, and I 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:27.160 had the privilege of being invited to his funeral by 0:58:27.160 --> 0:58:30.760 his wife, and I can say that when I had 0:58:30.760 --> 0:58:33.280 the opportunity to speak for the time that I did, 0:58:33.720 --> 0:58:35.840 and I shared with the audience that I at that 0:58:35.880 --> 0:58:37.800 time I had to find my fuld daughter at the Quinn, 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:42.160 and I specifically said that Ken Thompson is the reason 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:45.880 why I have my daughter, and that was totally sincere 0:58:45.880 --> 0:58:49.400 about that, because if this individual didn't show the courage 0:58:49.480 --> 0:58:52.720 that he showed in taking on this particular endeavor of 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:56.280 wrongful conviction cases, a lot of people, not necessarily myself, 0:58:56.360 --> 0:58:58.000 but a lot of other people would be in the 0:58:58.080 --> 0:59:01.120 world of trouble right now. Uite, frankly would probably still 0:59:01.160 --> 0:59:04.000 be incarcerated. And I just saw dis close with this 0:59:04.320 --> 0:59:07.560 when the acres I was, you know, introduced me to 0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:10.120 his children and his wife. That was a very touching 0:59:10.160 --> 0:59:12.360 moment for someone like me because I'm sitting there and 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:14.200 I'm looking at his sous and I got the opportunity 0:59:14.240 --> 0:59:16.560 to meet these guys, and you know, that was doubt 0:59:16.680 --> 0:59:18.360 for me, was the privilege. And I would like to 0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:21.320 say that that that said more about the Gonzales than 0:59:21.520 --> 0:59:22.720 than it did about me. 0:59:23.160 --> 0:59:24.480 And so I just want to thank. 0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:27.680 You because that really struck a chord with me even 0:59:27.720 --> 0:59:29.480 after I met with you going my way. 0:59:29.320 --> 0:59:31.920 Home, and so I felt really good good about that. 0:59:31.960 --> 0:59:34.160 I looked at that as a as a privilege and 0:59:34.200 --> 0:59:36.480 I just wanted to, you know, for some of us, 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:39.360 when I see the ex outs getting going, to really 0:59:39.680 --> 0:59:41.960 let him know and thank him for that, because that 0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:44.160 that touched some That touched the emotional chord for me, 0:59:44.200 --> 0:59:46.480 and it just showed me and it just really confirmed 0:59:46.480 --> 0:59:49.120 and reinforced for me what I just mentioned earlier about people, 0:59:49.360 --> 0:59:51.960 and that's important for people just to have faith in 0:59:52.000 --> 0:59:54.400 each other. And that's simply when I what I did 0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:56.640 during my time in prison and it paid off. 0:59:56.920 --> 0:59:57.840 Well. Thank you, David. 0:59:57.920 --> 1:00:00.560 It's been a privilege to have met you you and 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:03.400 to know you and to see you doing the great 1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:07.040 work that you're doing, the awareness that you bring, and 1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:09.720 to see you happy with your own family makes me 1:00:10.120 --> 1:00:10.760 very grateful. 1:00:17.640 --> 1:00:20.240 Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you 1:00:20.280 --> 1:00:23.920 get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud 1:00:24.000 --> 1:00:26.560 donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll 1:00:26.680 --> 1:00:30.040 join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 1:00:30.160 --> 1:00:33.760 to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot 1:00:33.800 --> 1:00:36.840 org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd 1:00:36.920 --> 1:00:40.000 like to thank our production team Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:42.640 The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 1:00:42.640 --> 1:00:45.720 nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:50.560 Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. 1:00:50.920 --> 1:00:53.960 Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava 1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:57.960 for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One 1:01:00.000 --> 1:01:00.840 And What Will