WEBVTT - Rick Rubin in Conversation with Malcolm Gladwell 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.916 Pushkin. Today, the interviewer becomes the interviewee and it's nearly 0:00:23.956 --> 0:00:27.396 forty years. As a producer, Rick Rubins helped unlock creativity 0:00:27.476 --> 0:00:31.876 and inspire musical genius time and again. The artist he's 0:00:31.916 --> 0:00:34.716 worked with often say one of Rick's superpowers is his 0:00:34.876 --> 0:00:39.156 expert ability to listen deeply. This month, Rick released his 0:00:39.276 --> 0:00:42.316 first book, called The Creative Act, A Way of Being. 0:00:43.196 --> 0:00:46.236 In it, he shares practical principles on how anyone can 0:00:46.276 --> 0:00:51.636 generate creative authenticity and ultimately find their voice. The book 0:00:51.676 --> 0:00:54.476 also explores how a state of openness and belief can 0:00:54.516 --> 0:00:58.276 help inspire creative ideas and break down obstacles that limit 0:00:58.396 --> 0:01:02.516 artistic momentum. Malcolm Gladwell talks to Rick on today's episode 0:01:02.516 --> 0:01:05.756 about The Creative Act. Together, they break down principles in 0:01:05.796 --> 0:01:08.956 the book that are applicable to feelings of stagnation even 0:01:09.156 --> 0:01:13.196 beyond artistic life. Rick talks about why he believes creativity 0:01:13.276 --> 0:01:16.796 comes from external forces rather than internal ones, and he 0:01:16.836 --> 0:01:20.156 explains why he believes self expression is not about you. 0:01:23.236 --> 0:01:26.396 This is broken record line of notes for the digital Age. 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:31.716 I'm justin Richmond. Here's Malcolm Gladwell with Rick Rubin. Rick 0:01:32.556 --> 0:01:35.636 Hey so I have a million questions, and I thought 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:39.956 the fun thing to do would be to go through 0:01:39.996 --> 0:01:43.756 and I would just read you things I underlined, because 0:01:43.756 --> 0:01:45.076 there are things that I would love for you to 0:01:45.116 --> 0:01:46.956 talk or that we could talk about, but to you 0:01:47.036 --> 0:01:49.236 in particular. But one of the fantastic things about this 0:01:49.276 --> 0:01:52.276 book is that I've almost rarely read a book where 0:01:52.996 --> 0:01:54.996 if I felt like I was being I was being 0:01:55.076 --> 0:01:58.636 invited to contribute. Do you know what I mean? Like 0:01:59.036 --> 0:02:01.076 every time you made a point, I was like, Oh, 0:02:01.116 --> 0:02:04.156 I have something to be add about that or this. 0:02:04.476 --> 0:02:06.076 I mean, I've never read a book like that where 0:02:06.116 --> 0:02:08.596 I'm like, half the time I'm talking to myself as 0:02:08.636 --> 0:02:11.076 I'm reading it. So that's what I thought. We would 0:02:11.076 --> 0:02:13.796 get into that as well a little bit. But that's great, 0:02:13.916 --> 0:02:16.556 that's great. I'm so happy. First of all, I'm happy 0:02:16.716 --> 0:02:19.676 like it, happy you read it, happy you like it, 0:02:19.716 --> 0:02:21.836 and I'm happy that it had that effect on you. 0:02:22.116 --> 0:02:23.596 And there was I will tell you there was a 0:02:23.676 --> 0:02:27.156 version of the book, an unsuccessful version of the book 0:02:27.636 --> 0:02:32.236 maybe four years ago, that talked about a lot of 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:34.556 the same stuff that the book talks about. The content 0:02:34.676 --> 0:02:40.516 was similar and the writing was beautiful, but it wouldn't 0:02:40.596 --> 0:02:44.356 have elicited the reaction that you had, and that's why 0:02:44.556 --> 0:02:47.796 it didn't come out then. And from the beginning, the 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:50.996 purpose of the book was always I want people to 0:02:51.036 --> 0:02:53.676 make great things. I want people, I want as much 0:02:53.716 --> 0:02:56.196 beautiful art in the world as possible. I'm a fan 0:02:56.236 --> 0:03:00.036 of beautiful things and exciting things and new things happening 0:03:00.076 --> 0:03:04.276 all the time, and the book was like a call 0:03:04.356 --> 0:03:08.716 to arms to go out and make something beautiful, change 0:03:08.756 --> 0:03:13.236 the world, you know. So I've many questions, but I 0:03:13.276 --> 0:03:15.116 wanted to start with a very general and which is 0:03:16.436 --> 0:03:20.116 because you're in a world of music, we're reading a 0:03:20.116 --> 0:03:22.996 lot of this through the lens of music. We're assuming 0:03:22.996 --> 0:03:25.516 you're talking about musicians, and you give examples of musicians 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:27.916 from time from time and time. You will also talk 0:03:27.956 --> 0:03:32.276 about visual artists. You add that into the mix. But 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:35.956 I was curious about, are we really talking about all 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:39.756 art here or is there a difference in the way 0:03:39.756 --> 0:03:43.356 that music and visual art are done that that you're 0:03:43.396 --> 0:03:49.476 specifically speaking to. I think it's how all creative choices 0:03:49.516 --> 0:03:53.476 are made. So not only does it include the visual arts, 0:03:53.876 --> 0:03:58.996 it includes starting a new business, a new recipe you're 0:03:58.996 --> 0:04:04.116 making as a chef, architectural choices you might make solving 0:04:04.116 --> 0:04:08.636 a problem in life where you're not getting along with 0:04:08.716 --> 0:04:12.716 a fan Emily member and you want to get closer 0:04:12.756 --> 0:04:16.276 to them and have better communication. Yeah. Originally I thought 0:04:16.276 --> 0:04:19.676 of it as more of a how to book about creativity, 0:04:20.276 --> 0:04:24.516 and it became a book about how to be, how 0:04:24.556 --> 0:04:26.916 to be in the world to allow creativity to happen, 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:28.716 And as it turns out, how to be in the 0:04:28.716 --> 0:04:33.836 world that allows creativity to happen solves a lot of issues. Yeah. 0:04:33.956 --> 0:04:36.756 I did feel like about halfway through I began to 0:04:37.356 --> 0:04:40.236 forget you were in music, and I felt like he 0:04:40.316 --> 0:04:43.756 was starting to talk more broadly about everyone. It's hard 0:04:43.756 --> 0:04:46.316 to escape the assumption that this is going to be 0:04:46.316 --> 0:04:49.076 a book about music at the very beginning, but there 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:50.756 so there's a couple I want to start reading to 0:04:50.796 --> 0:04:54.876 you some things and getting you to talk about them 0:04:54.916 --> 0:04:58.876 a little bit. One is without the spiritual components from 0:04:58.876 --> 0:05:02.756 page from the chapter called the Unseen. Without the spiritual component, 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:06.956 the artist works with a crucial disadvantage. It's a really 0:05:06.956 --> 0:05:11.636 really interesting idea, and one really that I had heard 0:05:11.716 --> 0:05:15.836 that phrase that way before. What is a disadvantage here? 0:05:16.436 --> 0:05:21.316 And what do you meaning by the term spiritual component. 0:05:22.356 --> 0:05:27.356 The spiritual component is belief in something bigger, something different, 0:05:27.396 --> 0:05:32.956 whatever it is. It could be believing in some universal power, 0:05:33.716 --> 0:05:36.236 believing that if you walk under a ladder you'll have 0:05:36.356 --> 0:05:39.236 bad luck, you know, could It could be anything that 0:05:39.396 --> 0:05:45.476 takes you out of the ordinary to allow you to 0:05:45.556 --> 0:05:52.116 see a wilder potential is good when you're making art. Yeah, 0:05:52.156 --> 0:05:54.636 the goal of making art is not to show you 0:05:55.356 --> 0:06:00.756 just what everybody else sees. It's to see what's possible. 0:06:01.036 --> 0:06:06.196 And what's possible is radical. It really is radical. It's 0:06:06.196 --> 0:06:10.396 like we've built very a very small world for ourselves 0:06:10.436 --> 0:06:13.876 with our reason. Yeah. Have you ever had a mystical 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:18.356 experience in your life? Yeah? Okay, do you want to 0:06:18.476 --> 0:06:21.396 describe it at all? Oh, well, I mean maybe my 0:06:21.476 --> 0:06:25.156 definition of mystical I have had. I'm open, I'm wide 0:06:25.156 --> 0:06:29.556 open however you describe it. I mean, I've had moments 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:33.756 probably around the death of my father would be an 0:06:33.756 --> 0:06:36.516 example of the death of my father was a lot 0:06:36.556 --> 0:06:38.276 more than just about the death of my father. I 0:06:38.316 --> 0:06:40.396 guess that's the best way. You become aware in that 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:45.476 moment that oh he's part of joining going somewhere whatever, 0:06:46.596 --> 0:06:49.516 much much, much, much much larger and older than we 0:06:49.556 --> 0:06:52.636 would have imagined. That's that was probably the closest I 0:06:52.636 --> 0:06:55.556 came to that that I saw that in the gift 0:06:55.596 --> 0:06:59.596 of my grief was that, Yes, was being becoming aware 0:06:59.636 --> 0:07:03.076 of that. Would you say that based on that you 0:07:03.396 --> 0:07:07.636 have been able to live at times in a deeper way, 0:07:07.756 --> 0:07:10.956 based on that experience open something in you to allow 0:07:10.996 --> 0:07:14.356 you to see more than you saw before. Yes, I 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:18.356 absolutely I would. I would count that experience is one 0:07:18.356 --> 0:07:21.596 of the most crucial of my life. And in a 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:24.356 million years, I would never have thought that the death 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:27.116 of someone I love more than anyone else would open 0:07:27.196 --> 0:07:30.116 me up in that way. That would be an example 0:07:30.676 --> 0:07:35.756 of touching something I would say spiritual, something, something unseen, 0:07:36.076 --> 0:07:39.996 something from beyond, something that wouldn't have made sense to 0:07:40.036 --> 0:07:44.116 you before it happened. Yeah, if someone would have described 0:07:44.156 --> 0:07:45.676 it to you, you might have thought, that doesn't really 0:07:45.716 --> 0:07:48.276 make sense to me, But then you got to feel it, 0:07:48.756 --> 0:07:52.676 and then you understood. And belief is that way. There's 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:55.436 a part in the book that talks about what you 0:07:55.516 --> 0:07:59.396 believe in doesn't have to be true, that doesn't really matter, 0:08:00.076 --> 0:08:04.836 but belief has a power, and belief allows you to 0:08:04.916 --> 0:08:08.476 go further than you thought you can go. Yeah, and 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:13.796 there are a lot of tools in the book that 0:08:14.516 --> 0:08:18.796 talk about overcoming voices that tell us we can't do 0:08:18.876 --> 0:08:22.236 things because we've learned we can't do things. You know, 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:26.516 we've learned what's possible and what's impossible, and if we 0:08:26.596 --> 0:08:29.916 accept what's possible and what's impossible, we can't go beyond. 0:08:30.036 --> 0:08:33.676 If the right brothers accepted it was impossible for man 0:08:33.676 --> 0:08:38.716 to fly, we still wouldn't be flying. All of the 0:08:38.916 --> 0:08:45.076 great revolutions that have happened have happened because someone believed 0:08:45.116 --> 0:08:49.196 in something that everyone thought wasn't possible. Yeah. This taps 0:08:49.236 --> 0:08:52.316 into a larger theme in your book, which I thought 0:08:52.396 --> 0:08:56.076 was really powerful, which is time and again you come 0:08:56.116 --> 0:08:58.796 back to the idea that the artists, one of the 0:08:58.876 --> 0:09:03.796 artists jobs is our obligations is to look outside of 0:09:04.236 --> 0:09:06.676 him or herself. I mean, you do talk about how 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:08.836 you need there's a chapter where you talk about the 0:09:09.996 --> 0:09:13.556 paying very close attention to what's going on inside your 0:09:13.556 --> 0:09:17.316 own head and heart, Like here's an example not long 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:19.476 after that first quote, when looking for a solution to 0:09:19.516 --> 0:09:23.036 a creative problem, pay close attention to what's happening around you. 0:09:23.756 --> 0:09:25.876 And what I love about that is like, it's not 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:31.236 that you think back over your history, remember some important 0:09:31.236 --> 0:09:33.836 thing you read five years ago written by some genius. No, No, 0:09:33.916 --> 0:09:37.276 you're talking about in the moment here and that. Look 0:09:37.276 --> 0:09:42.436 around and you can find kind of solutions, clues, what 0:09:42.676 --> 0:09:46.316 have you just in the kind of most prosaic details 0:09:46.516 --> 0:09:49.596 of your existence at that moment, like in the room 0:09:49.636 --> 0:09:53.836 where you are. Yes, now, I can't say it works 0:09:53.836 --> 0:09:56.396 one hundred percent of the time. It's not saying that. 0:09:56.876 --> 0:09:59.436 It's saying that if you live in a way where 0:09:59.436 --> 0:10:02.556 you're really open and paying attention to everything around you, 0:10:03.196 --> 0:10:06.916 the answers you're looking for are knocking on the door 0:10:07.236 --> 0:10:12.196 all the time. They don't come when you're searching for them. 0:10:13.036 --> 0:10:15.556 They come when you're open and allow them to come. 0:10:16.396 --> 0:10:17.756 One of the things that I talk about in the 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:21.156 book is um if you have a problem to solve, 0:10:22.236 --> 0:10:25.516 instead of thinking about it, hold the question in your 0:10:25.556 --> 0:10:29.396 awareness and go for a walk or swim or do 0:10:29.556 --> 0:10:33.436 something that takes your mind off of what you're trying 0:10:33.476 --> 0:10:37.476 to solve and engages you in something else. Yea. And 0:10:37.956 --> 0:10:41.836 most often when you're engaged in something else, the part 0:10:41.836 --> 0:10:44.396 of you that's in the way of solving the problem 0:10:45.116 --> 0:10:50.796 loses its control over you, and you through whatever it is. 0:10:50.836 --> 0:10:53.716 You can find a way to go for a drive 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:56.556 something where you have to you have to pay attention enough. 0:10:56.756 --> 0:11:01.116 If you're driving, you can sort of drive on autopilot 0:11:00.876 --> 0:11:03.796 in you know, without really paying attention. But if you're 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:06.756 really not paying attention, you'll crash. You can you can 0:11:06.796 --> 0:11:10.436 tune out that much. So there is some part of 0:11:10.476 --> 0:11:15.236 you that's occupied when you're driving with the work at hand. 0:11:15.716 --> 0:11:18.556 The reason I thought that was interesting was I wondered 0:11:19.156 --> 0:11:21.476 one thing that struck me. And I could be totally wrong, 0:11:21.556 --> 0:11:25.036 but my sense is that increasingly, and a lot of 0:11:25.076 --> 0:11:28.676 creative fields, creativity is to find as something that is 0:11:28.836 --> 0:11:33.156 internal and deliberate. You look within yourself and your own 0:11:33.196 --> 0:11:35.916 experience and you mind them for and you're talking about 0:11:35.956 --> 0:11:40.956 something that is in part external and unconscious. And I 0:11:41.036 --> 0:11:43.876 have a good friend who's a screenwriter, and I think 0:11:43.876 --> 0:11:48.316 by virtue of being my friend and watching, I'm a reporter, 0:11:48.396 --> 0:11:50.836 a journalist, you know. I call people up and interview 0:11:50.876 --> 0:11:54.156 them and record what they say. He's changed the way 0:11:54.196 --> 0:11:58.356 he writes screenplays. Now he does as much reporting as 0:11:58.476 --> 0:12:01.036 he does as much as someone who's writing a nonfiction book. 0:12:01.516 --> 0:12:03.956 And he's doing it not because he's just cutting and 0:12:03.956 --> 0:12:05.556 pasting what he hears in the world and do is 0:12:05.716 --> 0:12:07.676 but he's doing a version of what you're talking about, 0:12:07.716 --> 0:12:10.996 which is he's old himself up to the if he 0:12:11.036 --> 0:12:14.076 wants to talk about, you know, scientists, he goes and 0:12:14.116 --> 0:12:16.156 talks to lots and lots of scientists and it opens 0:12:16.236 --> 0:12:18.796 him up to the way they think and feel. And 0:12:19.636 --> 0:12:23.636 that kind of approach to creativity strikes me as being 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:25.476 one that seems out of vogue in a certain way. 0:12:25.596 --> 0:12:28.036 I mean, it's not what they're teaching in running schools. No, 0:12:28.196 --> 0:12:30.196 it's not what they're teaching. And there was a line, 0:12:30.356 --> 0:12:31.836 there's a line in the book and I only know 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:34.076 it because I was working on the audiobook yesterday and 0:12:34.436 --> 0:12:38.716 I read it yesterday, and it's against funny countintuitive line 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:46.076 that self expression is not about you, and it's just 0:12:46.156 --> 0:12:48.676 such a and when I read it, you know, it's 0:12:48.756 --> 0:12:51.756 it's stopped me in my tracks, even though it's an 0:12:51.796 --> 0:12:54.876 idea from several years ago, but it hit me hard again, 0:12:55.316 --> 0:13:00.356 you know, recognizing it. So everything we are comes from 0:13:00.396 --> 0:13:03.756 outside of us, the data that we take in from 0:13:03.756 --> 0:13:05.996 which we make whatever it is that we make comes 0:13:05.996 --> 0:13:08.236 from outside of us, all of it. None of it 0:13:08.316 --> 0:13:12.716 starts with us. Everything starts outside of us. So we 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:14.876 have a storehouse of all of the stuff that we've 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:18.556 experienced over the course of our lives, and then we 0:13:18.636 --> 0:13:23.836 can find connections between those things, and we can find 0:13:23.876 --> 0:13:27.676 connections between those things from the past and these things 0:13:27.676 --> 0:13:31.476 happening now, whatever it may be. And when you're looking 0:13:31.516 --> 0:13:36.516 for it, it's surprising how often the answers are right there. Yeah, 0:13:36.876 --> 0:13:40.516 this is reading another with my favorite lines. Distraction is 0:13:40.556 --> 0:13:45.516 not procrastination. Procrastination consistently undermines our ability to make things. 0:13:45.796 --> 0:13:49.316 Distraction is a strategy in service of the work, which 0:13:49.396 --> 0:13:51.796 is to your point. So a lot of what this 0:13:51.996 --> 0:13:55.716 exposure to the world outside of us is about is 0:13:55.716 --> 0:13:59.116 a kind of productive distraction, right, That's what you're saying 0:13:59.116 --> 0:14:02.756 with that, it's a combination. There's a productive distraction and 0:14:02.876 --> 0:14:06.356 an inspiration. The connection with the outside world also can 0:14:06.396 --> 0:14:08.796 be really inspiring. It can be inspiring if you pick 0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:11.556 play that are inspiring. I try to pick places to 0:14:11.636 --> 0:14:14.716 be where I find inspiration on a daily basis. You 0:14:14.796 --> 0:14:17.556 have a little moment where you're talking about how different 0:14:17.996 --> 0:14:22.396 all of us have different strategies for that kind of 0:14:22.556 --> 0:14:25.556 inspirational place. And you said Andy Warhol was said to 0:14:25.556 --> 0:14:28.876 create with a television, radio, and record player all on simultaneously. 0:14:29.236 --> 0:14:31.316 For eminem the noise of a single TV set is 0:14:31.356 --> 0:14:34.316 his preferred backdrop myself. Proust lined, as well as with 0:14:34.396 --> 0:14:38.156 sound of absorbing cork, close the drapes and warrior plugs. 0:14:38.636 --> 0:14:40.956 And I was curious, what's yours? Do you have a 0:14:41.036 --> 0:14:43.916 kind of mode like that? I would say I like 0:14:44.036 --> 0:14:51.076 to be in a quiet place, big beautiful nature, less people. Yeah, 0:14:51.156 --> 0:14:54.596 i'd say natural beauty and less people. It's funny. I'm 0:14:54.636 --> 0:14:57.396 exactly the opposite. I was right at a very productive 0:14:57.436 --> 0:15:00.876 warning in a coffee shop. It was crowded, and I 0:15:00.916 --> 0:15:05.036 was seating it like literally right up against the six 0:15:05.076 --> 0:15:08.756 foot four kid. I think it's like twenty two years old, 0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:12.916 sitting next to his parents. And the kid was super interesting, 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:15.996 and he was talking about the PLO in the nineteen 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:20.876 seventies and yes, or Arafat, and there was something about 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:23.476 like I don't know, I can't put my finger on what. 0:15:23.516 --> 0:15:25.756 That kind of triggered After a while, I kind of 0:15:26.076 --> 0:15:28.796 he became my background noise. But it was such a 0:15:28.836 --> 0:15:32.596 different voice that I was fixing a chapter of something 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:35.476 I was working on, and I just thought suddenly saw 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:37.556 a solution, and I think it was what we were 0:15:37.556 --> 0:15:40.876 talking about. It was some combination of there's something about 0:15:40.956 --> 0:15:45.756 that being surrounded by unusual voices that really wakes me 0:15:45.876 --> 0:15:48.956 up to the range of solutions. Right, I'm reminded, Oh, 0:15:49.116 --> 0:15:51.556 there's like, there's this kid who's thinking about something I 0:15:51.596 --> 0:15:55.356 don't think about in a context I'm not in. Who's 0:15:55.356 --> 0:15:58.396 super interesting, Like, wow, so you know there's a solution 0:15:58.436 --> 0:15:59.916 out there. It was that. It was funny because I 0:16:00.276 --> 0:16:02.276 had just read your chapter which talks about that, and 0:16:02.356 --> 0:16:05.156 I was in that situation. Is that a place that 0:16:05.196 --> 0:16:09.276 you go to every day many days? I like, I 0:16:09.876 --> 0:16:14.076 need I need so, I need voices. I need noise 0:16:14.156 --> 0:16:17.516 and voices and activity in order to be able to create. 0:16:18.436 --> 0:16:22.876 During the pandemic, I had one Sturgele Simpson album that 0:16:22.956 --> 0:16:25.356 I played over and over and over again. He was 0:16:25.396 --> 0:16:28.396 my voice? Was it meta? Modern? Met? What is that? Albums? 0:16:28.436 --> 0:16:32.516 Fantastic album? Whatever? Was so good? It's great. He was great. 0:16:32.716 --> 0:16:35.076 I don't know if he's out there. He helped me 0:16:35.156 --> 0:16:40.556 through many, many lean times during the pandemic. But that 0:16:40.756 --> 0:16:45.276 idea I almost feel like you're describing the things you 0:16:45.316 --> 0:16:48.916 have learned by working with elite practitioners of the art 0:16:48.956 --> 0:16:52.116 of creativity. But I was struck by the gap between 0:16:52.676 --> 0:16:55.996 what you've learned from the top performers and what we're 0:16:56.036 --> 0:17:00.596 teaching to people at the outset, and that it concerned me. 0:17:00.596 --> 0:17:03.476 I almost feel like there's a gap between what we're 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:08.676 telling people and what the truly creative are doing. Yes, yes, 0:17:08.796 --> 0:17:12.916 that's on the same point on this gap. There's a 0:17:12.916 --> 0:17:15.076 moment when you're talking about secually my favorite part of 0:17:15.076 --> 0:17:19.356 the book, when you're talking about strategies for unblocking yourself 0:17:19.716 --> 0:17:22.876 in all the different ways that you think about that 0:17:22.956 --> 0:17:26.196 or approach that when you're working with people and one 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:29.356 of them was right right in the voice of someone else, 0:17:30.076 --> 0:17:33.956 that's what we said, and Rick, once again, in the 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:38.956 world we live in, that is an incendiary thought. That's 0:17:39.036 --> 0:17:42.396 called appropriation. And you have this beautiful I want to 0:17:42.476 --> 0:17:47.276 quote in a similar vein you say there are countless 0:17:47.276 --> 0:17:51.836 examples of imitation turning into legitimate innovation. Having a romanticized 0:17:51.916 --> 0:17:54.436 vision of an artist, genre, or tradition may allow you 0:17:54.476 --> 0:17:57.156 to create something new because you see it from a 0:17:57.156 --> 0:18:00.796 different perspective than those closer to it. So not only 0:18:00.876 --> 0:18:03.156 you saying that it can be really useful to inhabit 0:18:03.196 --> 0:18:07.596 someone else's voice or tradition, you're also saying that that 0:18:07.636 --> 0:18:13.316 can spark whole new, more beautiful, greater kind of innovation 0:18:13.356 --> 0:18:16.116 because you're approaching it from your own perspective. You talking 0:18:16.116 --> 0:18:19.156 about Sergio Leone's Spaghetti Westerns being a good example of that, 0:18:19.156 --> 0:18:22.876 that they transform understanding of what a western is. I 0:18:22.956 --> 0:18:25.516 thought a lot about the audiobook we did with Paul 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:30.356 Simon when he's talking about Graceland, which is that right, yes? 0:18:31.956 --> 0:18:35.716 Or talking heads you know, remain in light or fear 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:40.596 of music. Those were inspired by African rhythms. Yeah, there's 0:18:40.636 --> 0:18:44.036 a great tradition in doing this. I mean if pretty 0:18:44.116 --> 0:18:48.956 much the best of everything was based on something else, always, 0:18:49.476 --> 0:18:52.516 and then it's the it's through the new interpretations. Like 0:18:52.556 --> 0:18:56.836 the Beatles were doing American motown music, but because they 0:18:56.836 --> 0:19:00.596 were English and because of the distance, they weren't trying 0:19:00.676 --> 0:19:03.316 to do it different. They did it different because they 0:19:03.316 --> 0:19:05.596 were different. Yeah, and that was the beauty of it. 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:09.116 And that's how the Beatles became the Beatles, you know. Yeah, 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:11.796 they became the Beatles because they are the Beatles, but 0:19:11.916 --> 0:19:14.516 the music they were doing was they were trying to 0:19:14.516 --> 0:19:17.076 do motown or as you point out, the Ramones were 0:19:17.076 --> 0:19:20.196 trying to be the Base City Rollers. Yes, which is 0:19:20.196 --> 0:19:23.516 a true. Yeah, Johnny Ramone told me that himself, so 0:19:23.596 --> 0:19:25.996 I know that to be true. That is so hilary 0:19:26.116 --> 0:19:28.036 for those of you who don't know the Basity Rollers. 0:19:28.476 --> 0:19:32.156 They were just about the dumbest bubble bubble gum band 0:19:32.196 --> 0:19:35.236 of the They were like the boy band of the 0:19:35.236 --> 0:19:39.356 early seventies. And the Ramones think that they had that 0:19:39.396 --> 0:19:42.236 song s A t U R d a y n 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:44.796 s A t u R. And then if you listen 0:19:44.796 --> 0:19:48.716 to the Ramones, they have those type of gabba gabby 0:19:49.116 --> 0:19:53.156 you we accept you know, similar types of chance. Yes, 0:19:53.276 --> 0:19:55.276 that's right. Yeah, they take it and they twist it 0:19:55.276 --> 0:20:00.436 in this brilliant, beautiful revolutionary way. But so we look 0:20:00.476 --> 0:20:02.556 about I sort of harp on this, but how do 0:20:02.636 --> 0:20:05.996 we get away from that notion? So it is legitimately 0:20:05.996 --> 0:20:08.036 the case, and I know this because I are examples 0:20:08.036 --> 0:20:12.196 of people who I know who are legitimately terrified of 0:20:12.436 --> 0:20:17.156 even so much as dipping their toe in another traditionary voice, 0:20:17.196 --> 0:20:21.636 for fear of being criticized it's almost like we're terrified 0:20:21.676 --> 0:20:25.956 of the sources of creativity. We're terrified to admit to 0:20:25.956 --> 0:20:28.916 ourselves what we're doing in the name of creativity. The 0:20:29.076 --> 0:20:34.916 reason someone imitates someone else is because they love someone else. 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:39.196 That's why it's only flattery when someone is inspired by 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:42.276 someone else. If you if you decided to write because 0:20:42.316 --> 0:20:44.916 someone else wrote and you like their writing, and you 0:20:44.956 --> 0:20:48.756 decide to become a writer, that's not against them, That 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:53.676 doesn't take anything away from them. That's a tribute to them. Yeah, 0:20:53.756 --> 0:20:57.276 And all of the music that gets made based on 0:20:57.596 --> 0:21:00.596 loving someone else's music is attribute to them. Whether it 0:21:00.716 --> 0:21:03.556 be people of the same color or different color, doesn't 0:21:03.556 --> 0:21:05.796 matter that it has nothing to do with that. That's 0:21:05.836 --> 0:21:09.916 not what it's about. Yeah, it's a current misread of 0:21:09.956 --> 0:21:12.996 the situation. Yes, you know what it is, and it 0:21:12.996 --> 0:21:14.476 goes to something else. You talk a little bit, You 0:21:14.476 --> 0:21:17.716 talk about the abundance mindset in getting to that part 0:21:17.716 --> 0:21:20.476 of the book. You talk about the importance of understanding 0:21:20.516 --> 0:21:23.796 that number of ideas, essentially, the number of ideas out 0:21:23.836 --> 0:21:27.156 there is infinite, not finite. Yes, when you understand it's 0:21:27.196 --> 0:21:31.676 infinite there, then you're not scared of imitating someone because 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:33.716 You're like, there's a million things out there we don't 0:21:33.796 --> 0:21:35.916 we don't have to hold tightly to what we've done 0:21:36.276 --> 0:21:40.916 and be react in a hostile manner if someone tries 0:21:40.956 --> 0:21:43.996 to imitate us, because there's a million fishing to see. 0:21:44.076 --> 0:21:46.916 You know, it's fine. I think the idea that the 0:21:47.036 --> 0:21:50.396 number of new ideas is infinite has kind of fallen 0:21:50.436 --> 0:21:53.676 out of favor somehow. Yeah, it's it's just odd. It's 0:21:54.076 --> 0:21:57.716 I mean, people can be wrong and it's okay, you know, 0:21:57.876 --> 0:22:00.436 like that's fine. In some ways, the fact that's fallen 0:22:00.436 --> 0:22:05.396 out of favor means the people who embrace the tried 0:22:05.476 --> 0:22:09.116 and true methods that have worked will find greater success 0:22:09.156 --> 0:22:13.036 and they'll be less stuff in between. Yeah, is your 0:22:13.876 --> 0:22:18.396 understanding of this notion of abundance? Is it a product 0:22:18.476 --> 0:22:21.476 of having worked for I don't know how many years 0:22:21.516 --> 0:22:24.036 you've been in the industry, many decades. Did you feel 0:22:24.076 --> 0:22:25.716 the same way when you were twenty one and there 0:22:25.796 --> 0:22:28.316 was Is it natural for the very for the very 0:22:28.356 --> 0:22:31.636 young to be much more jealous, to touch more jealously 0:22:31.676 --> 0:22:35.156 guard their ideas because they haven't had years and years 0:22:35.156 --> 0:22:38.316 of experience in seeing the kind of waterfall of ideas 0:22:38.316 --> 0:22:41.316 that's out there. Is that fair? No, it's fair. I've 0:22:41.356 --> 0:22:44.676 always felt this way because I see it, you know, 0:22:44.716 --> 0:22:47.236 I see all of the ideas I see I want 0:22:47.236 --> 0:22:49.596 to learn everything. There's no time. There's no time to 0:22:49.676 --> 0:22:53.396 learn all the things I want to learn. I'm endlessly curious, 0:22:53.756 --> 0:22:58.116 and I'm always looking. I'm thinking back to It's really 0:22:58.156 --> 0:23:00.236 more about what we were just talking about. But the 0:23:00.356 --> 0:23:04.076 reason I learned about reggae music was because of the Clash. 0:23:04.116 --> 0:23:06.156 If it weren't for the Clash, I don't know if 0:23:06.196 --> 0:23:08.636 I would have ever come in contact with reggae music. 0:23:09.356 --> 0:23:12.316 So is it bad that the Clash did reggae music 0:23:12.836 --> 0:23:16.836 because they turned on a whole generation of people who 0:23:16.876 --> 0:23:21.036 otherwise may not have ever heard about it. Do you know? 0:23:21.076 --> 0:23:25.156 It's like, it's it's a crazy idea to think that, 0:23:26.556 --> 0:23:28.796 not to be inspired by the things that are inspiring 0:23:28.916 --> 0:23:32.396 us and to show it and to own it and 0:23:32.436 --> 0:23:36.956 to fly the flag of these great trends or genres 0:23:37.836 --> 0:23:41.036 is nothing more beautiful. Yeah, we're gonna pause for a 0:23:41.076 --> 0:23:43.116 quick break and then we'll be back with more from 0:23:43.196 --> 0:23:47.916 Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell. We're back with more from 0:23:47.956 --> 0:23:52.436 Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell. I remember pretty early in 0:23:52.436 --> 0:23:55.756 my writing career when I was unhappy. I thought I 0:23:55.316 --> 0:23:57.676 was I was limited as a writer. And I remember 0:23:57.716 --> 0:24:00.516 sitting down with I've forgotten which book it was, one 0:24:00.556 --> 0:24:04.436 of Michael Lewis's books and one of Janet Malcolm's books, 0:24:04.556 --> 0:24:09.796 two narrative nonfiction writers who are extra really good at 0:24:10.396 --> 0:24:12.396 the one thing I thought I was weak at, which 0:24:12.436 --> 0:24:16.356 is character, literally sitting down and studying them like they 0:24:16.356 --> 0:24:19.916