1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Today, the interviewer becomes the interviewee and it's nearly 2 00:00:23,956 --> 00:00:27,396 Speaker 1: forty years. As a producer, Rick Rubins helped unlock creativity 3 00:00:27,476 --> 00:00:31,876 Speaker 1: and inspire musical genius time and again. The artist he's 4 00:00:31,916 --> 00:00:34,716 Speaker 1: worked with often say one of Rick's superpowers is his 5 00:00:34,876 --> 00:00:39,156 Speaker 1: expert ability to listen deeply. This month, Rick released his 6 00:00:39,276 --> 00:00:42,316 Speaker 1: first book, called The Creative Act, A Way of Being. 7 00:00:43,196 --> 00:00:46,236 Speaker 1: In it, he shares practical principles on how anyone can 8 00:00:46,276 --> 00:00:51,636 Speaker 1: generate creative authenticity and ultimately find their voice. The book 9 00:00:51,676 --> 00:00:54,476 Speaker 1: also explores how a state of openness and belief can 10 00:00:54,516 --> 00:00:58,276 Speaker 1: help inspire creative ideas and break down obstacles that limit 11 00:00:58,396 --> 00:01:02,516 Speaker 1: artistic momentum. Malcolm Gladwell talks to Rick on today's episode 12 00:01:02,516 --> 00:01:05,756 Speaker 1: about The Creative Act. Together, they break down principles in 13 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:08,956 Speaker 1: the book that are applicable to feelings of stagnation even 14 00:01:09,156 --> 00:01:13,196 Speaker 1: beyond artistic life. Rick talks about why he believes creativity 15 00:01:13,276 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 1: comes from external forces rather than internal ones, and he 16 00:01:16,836 --> 00:01:20,156 Speaker 1: explains why he believes self expression is not about you. 17 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:26,396 Speaker 1: This is broken record line of notes for the digital Age. 18 00:01:26,676 --> 00:01:31,716 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Malcolm Gladwell with Rick Rubin. Rick 19 00:01:32,556 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 1: Hey so I have a million questions, and I thought 20 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:39,956 Speaker 1: the fun thing to do would be to go through 21 00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:43,756 Speaker 1: and I would just read you things I underlined, because 22 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:45,076 Speaker 1: there are things that I would love for you to 23 00:01:45,116 --> 00:01:46,956 Speaker 1: talk or that we could talk about, but to you 24 00:01:47,036 --> 00:01:49,236 Speaker 1: in particular. But one of the fantastic things about this 25 00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:52,276 Speaker 1: book is that I've almost rarely read a book where 26 00:01:52,996 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 1: if I felt like I was being I was being 27 00:01:55,076 --> 00:01:58,636 Speaker 1: invited to contribute. Do you know what I mean? Like 28 00:01:59,036 --> 00:02:01,076 Speaker 1: every time you made a point, I was like, Oh, 29 00:02:01,116 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 1: I have something to be add about that or this. 30 00:02:04,476 --> 00:02:06,076 Speaker 1: I mean, I've never read a book like that where 31 00:02:06,116 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 1: I'm like, half the time I'm talking to myself as 32 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:11,076 Speaker 1: I'm reading it. So that's what I thought. We would 33 00:02:11,076 --> 00:02:13,796 Speaker 1: get into that as well a little bit. But that's great, 34 00:02:13,916 --> 00:02:16,556 Speaker 1: that's great. I'm so happy. First of all, I'm happy 35 00:02:16,716 --> 00:02:19,676 Speaker 1: like it, happy you read it, happy you like it, 36 00:02:19,716 --> 00:02:21,836 Speaker 1: and I'm happy that it had that effect on you. 37 00:02:22,116 --> 00:02:23,596 Speaker 1: And there was I will tell you there was a 38 00:02:23,676 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 1: version of the book, an unsuccessful version of the book 39 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 1: maybe four years ago, that talked about a lot of 40 00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:34,556 Speaker 1: the same stuff that the book talks about. The content 41 00:02:34,676 --> 00:02:40,516 Speaker 1: was similar and the writing was beautiful, but it wouldn't 42 00:02:40,596 --> 00:02:44,356 Speaker 1: have elicited the reaction that you had, and that's why 43 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:47,796 Speaker 1: it didn't come out then. And from the beginning, the 44 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:50,996 Speaker 1: purpose of the book was always I want people to 45 00:02:51,036 --> 00:02:53,676 Speaker 1: make great things. I want people, I want as much 46 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:56,196 Speaker 1: beautiful art in the world as possible. I'm a fan 47 00:02:56,236 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 1: of beautiful things and exciting things and new things happening 48 00:03:00,076 --> 00:03:04,276 Speaker 1: all the time, and the book was like a call 49 00:03:04,356 --> 00:03:08,716 Speaker 1: to arms to go out and make something beautiful, change 50 00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 1: the world, you know. So I've many questions, but I 51 00:03:13,276 --> 00:03:15,116 Speaker 1: wanted to start with a very general and which is 52 00:03:16,436 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 1: because you're in a world of music, we're reading a 53 00:03:20,116 --> 00:03:22,996 Speaker 1: lot of this through the lens of music. We're assuming 54 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:25,516 Speaker 1: you're talking about musicians, and you give examples of musicians 55 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:27,916 Speaker 1: from time from time and time. You will also talk 56 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:32,276 Speaker 1: about visual artists. You add that into the mix. But 57 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:35,956 Speaker 1: I was curious about, are we really talking about all 58 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 1: art here or is there a difference in the way 59 00:03:39,756 --> 00:03:43,356 Speaker 1: that music and visual art are done that that you're 60 00:03:43,396 --> 00:03:49,476 Speaker 1: specifically speaking to. I think it's how all creative choices 61 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:53,476 Speaker 1: are made. So not only does it include the visual arts, 62 00:03:53,876 --> 00:03:58,996 Speaker 1: it includes starting a new business, a new recipe you're 63 00:03:58,996 --> 00:04:04,116 Speaker 1: making as a chef, architectural choices you might make solving 64 00:04:04,116 --> 00:04:08,636 Speaker 1: a problem in life where you're not getting along with 65 00:04:08,716 --> 00:04:12,716 Speaker 1: a fan Emily member and you want to get closer 66 00:04:12,756 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 1: to them and have better communication. Yeah. Originally I thought 67 00:04:16,276 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 1: of it as more of a how to book about creativity, 68 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:24,516 Speaker 1: and it became a book about how to be, how 69 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:26,916 Speaker 1: to be in the world to allow creativity to happen, 70 00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:28,716 Speaker 1: And as it turns out, how to be in the 71 00:04:28,716 --> 00:04:33,836 Speaker 1: world that allows creativity to happen solves a lot of issues. Yeah. 72 00:04:33,956 --> 00:04:36,756 Speaker 1: I did feel like about halfway through I began to 73 00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:40,236 Speaker 1: forget you were in music, and I felt like he 74 00:04:40,316 --> 00:04:43,756 Speaker 1: was starting to talk more broadly about everyone. It's hard 75 00:04:43,756 --> 00:04:46,316 Speaker 1: to escape the assumption that this is going to be 76 00:04:46,316 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 1: a book about music at the very beginning, but there 77 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:50,756 Speaker 1: so there's a couple I want to start reading to 78 00:04:50,796 --> 00:04:54,876 Speaker 1: you some things and getting you to talk about them 79 00:04:54,916 --> 00:04:58,876 Speaker 1: a little bit. One is without the spiritual components from 80 00:04:58,876 --> 00:05:02,756 Speaker 1: page from the chapter called the Unseen. Without the spiritual component, 81 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:06,956 Speaker 1: the artist works with a crucial disadvantage. It's a really 82 00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:11,636 Speaker 1: really interesting idea, and one really that I had heard 83 00:05:11,716 --> 00:05:15,836 Speaker 1: that phrase that way before. What is a disadvantage here? 84 00:05:16,436 --> 00:05:21,316 Speaker 1: And what do you meaning by the term spiritual component. 85 00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:27,356 Speaker 1: The spiritual component is belief in something bigger, something different, 86 00:05:27,396 --> 00:05:32,956 Speaker 1: whatever it is. It could be believing in some universal power, 87 00:05:33,716 --> 00:05:36,236 Speaker 1: believing that if you walk under a ladder you'll have 88 00:05:36,356 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 1: bad luck, you know, could It could be anything that 89 00:05:39,396 --> 00:05:45,476 Speaker 1: takes you out of the ordinary to allow you to 90 00:05:45,556 --> 00:05:52,116 Speaker 1: see a wilder potential is good when you're making art. Yeah, 91 00:05:52,156 --> 00:05:54,636 Speaker 1: the goal of making art is not to show you 92 00:05:55,356 --> 00:06:00,756 Speaker 1: just what everybody else sees. It's to see what's possible. 93 00:06:01,036 --> 00:06:06,196 Speaker 1: And what's possible is radical. It really is radical. It's 94 00:06:06,196 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: like we've built very a very small world for ourselves 95 00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:13,876 Speaker 1: with our reason. Yeah. Have you ever had a mystical 96 00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:18,356 Speaker 1: experience in your life? Yeah? Okay, do you want to 97 00:06:18,476 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: describe it at all? Oh, well, I mean maybe my 98 00:06:21,476 --> 00:06:25,156 Speaker 1: definition of mystical I have had. I'm open, I'm wide 99 00:06:25,156 --> 00:06:29,556 Speaker 1: open however you describe it. I mean, I've had moments 100 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 1: probably around the death of my father would be an 101 00:06:33,756 --> 00:06:36,516 Speaker 1: example of the death of my father was a lot 102 00:06:36,556 --> 00:06:38,276 Speaker 1: more than just about the death of my father. I 103 00:06:38,316 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 1: guess that's the best way. You become aware in that 104 00:06:40,476 --> 00:06:45,476 Speaker 1: moment that oh he's part of joining going somewhere whatever, 105 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 1: much much, much, much much larger and older than we 106 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:52,636 Speaker 1: would have imagined. That's that was probably the closest I 107 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:55,556 Speaker 1: came to that that I saw that in the gift 108 00:06:55,596 --> 00:06:59,596 Speaker 1: of my grief was that, Yes, was being becoming aware 109 00:06:59,636 --> 00:07:03,076 Speaker 1: of that. Would you say that based on that you 110 00:07:03,396 --> 00:07:07,636 Speaker 1: have been able to live at times in a deeper way, 111 00:07:07,756 --> 00:07:10,956 Speaker 1: based on that experience open something in you to allow 112 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 1: you to see more than you saw before. Yes, I 113 00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:18,356 Speaker 1: absolutely I would. I would count that experience is one 114 00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:21,596 Speaker 1: of the most crucial of my life. And in a 115 00:07:21,596 --> 00:07:24,356 Speaker 1: million years, I would never have thought that the death 116 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:27,116 Speaker 1: of someone I love more than anyone else would open 117 00:07:27,196 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: me up in that way. That would be an example 118 00:07:30,676 --> 00:07:35,756 Speaker 1: of touching something I would say spiritual, something, something unseen, 119 00:07:36,076 --> 00:07:39,996 Speaker 1: something from beyond, something that wouldn't have made sense to 120 00:07:40,036 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 1: you before it happened. Yeah, if someone would have described 121 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:45,676 Speaker 1: it to you, you might have thought, that doesn't really 122 00:07:45,716 --> 00:07:48,276 Speaker 1: make sense to me, But then you got to feel it, 123 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:52,676 Speaker 1: and then you understood. And belief is that way. There's 124 00:07:52,716 --> 00:07:55,436 Speaker 1: a part in the book that talks about what you 125 00:07:55,516 --> 00:07:59,396 Speaker 1: believe in doesn't have to be true, that doesn't really matter, 126 00:08:00,076 --> 00:08:04,836 Speaker 1: but belief has a power, and belief allows you to 127 00:08:04,916 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 1: go further than you thought you can go. Yeah, and 128 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:13,796 Speaker 1: there are a lot of tools in the book that 129 00:08:14,516 --> 00:08:18,796 Speaker 1: talk about overcoming voices that tell us we can't do 130 00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:22,236 Speaker 1: things because we've learned we can't do things. You know, 131 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:26,516 Speaker 1: we've learned what's possible and what's impossible, and if we 132 00:08:26,596 --> 00:08:29,916 Speaker 1: accept what's possible and what's impossible, we can't go beyond. 133 00:08:30,036 --> 00:08:33,676 Speaker 1: If the right brothers accepted it was impossible for man 134 00:08:33,676 --> 00:08:38,716 Speaker 1: to fly, we still wouldn't be flying. All of the 135 00:08:38,916 --> 00:08:45,076 Speaker 1: great revolutions that have happened have happened because someone believed 136 00:08:45,116 --> 00:08:49,196 Speaker 1: in something that everyone thought wasn't possible. Yeah. This taps 137 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:52,316 Speaker 1: into a larger theme in your book, which I thought 138 00:08:52,396 --> 00:08:56,076 Speaker 1: was really powerful, which is time and again you come 139 00:08:56,116 --> 00:08:58,796 Speaker 1: back to the idea that the artists, one of the 140 00:08:58,876 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 1: artists jobs is our obligations is to look outside of 141 00:09:04,236 --> 00:09:06,676 Speaker 1: him or herself. I mean, you do talk about how 142 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:08,836 Speaker 1: you need there's a chapter where you talk about the 143 00:09:09,996 --> 00:09:13,556 Speaker 1: paying very close attention to what's going on inside your 144 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:17,316 Speaker 1: own head and heart, Like here's an example not long 145 00:09:17,316 --> 00:09:19,476 Speaker 1: after that first quote, when looking for a solution to 146 00:09:19,516 --> 00:09:23,036 Speaker 1: a creative problem, pay close attention to what's happening around you. 147 00:09:23,756 --> 00:09:25,876 Speaker 1: And what I love about that is like, it's not 148 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:31,236 Speaker 1: that you think back over your history, remember some important 149 00:09:31,236 --> 00:09:33,836 Speaker 1: thing you read five years ago written by some genius. No, No, 150 00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:37,276 Speaker 1: you're talking about in the moment here and that. Look 151 00:09:37,276 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: around and you can find kind of solutions, clues, what 152 00:09:42,676 --> 00:09:46,316 Speaker 1: have you just in the kind of most prosaic details 153 00:09:46,516 --> 00:09:49,596 Speaker 1: of your existence at that moment, like in the room 154 00:09:49,636 --> 00:09:53,836 Speaker 1: where you are. Yes, now, I can't say it works 155 00:09:53,836 --> 00:09:56,396 Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the time. It's not saying that. 156 00:09:56,876 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 1: It's saying that if you live in a way where 157 00:09:59,436 --> 00:10:02,556 Speaker 1: you're really open and paying attention to everything around you, 158 00:10:03,196 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 1: the answers you're looking for are knocking on the door 159 00:10:07,236 --> 00:10:12,196 Speaker 1: all the time. They don't come when you're searching for them. 160 00:10:13,036 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 1: They come when you're open and allow them to come. 161 00:10:16,396 --> 00:10:17,756 Speaker 1: One of the things that I talk about in the 162 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 1: book is um if you have a problem to solve, 163 00:10:22,236 --> 00:10:25,516 Speaker 1: instead of thinking about it, hold the question in your 164 00:10:25,556 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: awareness and go for a walk or swim or do 165 00:10:29,556 --> 00:10:33,436 Speaker 1: something that takes your mind off of what you're trying 166 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:37,476 Speaker 1: to solve and engages you in something else. Yea. And 167 00:10:37,956 --> 00:10:41,836 Speaker 1: most often when you're engaged in something else, the part 168 00:10:41,836 --> 00:10:44,396 Speaker 1: of you that's in the way of solving the problem 169 00:10:45,116 --> 00:10:50,796 Speaker 1: loses its control over you, and you through whatever it is. 170 00:10:50,836 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: You can find a way to go for a drive 171 00:10:53,916 --> 00:10:56,556 Speaker 1: something where you have to you have to pay attention enough. 172 00:10:56,756 --> 00:11:01,116 Speaker 1: If you're driving, you can sort of drive on autopilot 173 00:11:00,876 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 1: in you know, without really paying attention. But if you're 174 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: really not paying attention, you'll crash. You can you can 175 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 1: tune out that much. So there is some part of 176 00:11:10,476 --> 00:11:15,236 Speaker 1: you that's occupied when you're driving with the work at hand. 177 00:11:15,716 --> 00:11:18,556 Speaker 1: The reason I thought that was interesting was I wondered 178 00:11:19,156 --> 00:11:21,476 Speaker 1: one thing that struck me. And I could be totally wrong, 179 00:11:21,556 --> 00:11:25,036 Speaker 1: but my sense is that increasingly, and a lot of 180 00:11:25,076 --> 00:11:28,676 Speaker 1: creative fields, creativity is to find as something that is 181 00:11:28,836 --> 00:11:33,156 Speaker 1: internal and deliberate. You look within yourself and your own 182 00:11:33,196 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 1: experience and you mind them for and you're talking about 183 00:11:35,956 --> 00:11:40,956 Speaker 1: something that is in part external and unconscious. And I 184 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 1: have a good friend who's a screenwriter, and I think 185 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:48,316 Speaker 1: by virtue of being my friend and watching, I'm a reporter, 186 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:50,836 Speaker 1: a journalist, you know. I call people up and interview 187 00:11:50,876 --> 00:11:54,156 Speaker 1: them and record what they say. He's changed the way 188 00:11:54,196 --> 00:11:58,356 Speaker 1: he writes screenplays. Now he does as much reporting as 189 00:11:58,476 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 1: he does as much as someone who's writing a nonfiction book. 190 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:03,956 Speaker 1: And he's doing it not because he's just cutting and 191 00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:05,556 Speaker 1: pasting what he hears in the world and do is 192 00:12:05,716 --> 00:12:07,676 Speaker 1: but he's doing a version of what you're talking about, 193 00:12:07,716 --> 00:12:10,996 Speaker 1: which is he's old himself up to the if he 194 00:12:11,036 --> 00:12:14,076 Speaker 1: wants to talk about, you know, scientists, he goes and 195 00:12:14,116 --> 00:12:16,156 Speaker 1: talks to lots and lots of scientists and it opens 196 00:12:16,236 --> 00:12:18,796 Speaker 1: him up to the way they think and feel. And 197 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:23,636 Speaker 1: that kind of approach to creativity strikes me as being 198 00:12:23,636 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 1: one that seems out of vogue in a certain way. 199 00:12:25,596 --> 00:12:28,036 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not what they're teaching in running schools. No, 200 00:12:28,196 --> 00:12:30,196 Speaker 1: it's not what they're teaching. And there was a line, 201 00:12:30,356 --> 00:12:31,836 Speaker 1: there's a line in the book and I only know 202 00:12:31,916 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: it because I was working on the audiobook yesterday and 203 00:12:34,436 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 1: I read it yesterday, and it's against funny countintuitive line 204 00:12:39,156 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 1: that self expression is not about you, and it's just 205 00:12:46,156 --> 00:12:48,676 Speaker 1: such a and when I read it, you know, it's 206 00:12:48,756 --> 00:12:51,756 Speaker 1: it's stopped me in my tracks, even though it's an 207 00:12:51,796 --> 00:12:54,876 Speaker 1: idea from several years ago, but it hit me hard again, 208 00:12:55,316 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 1: you know, recognizing it. So everything we are comes from 209 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:03,756 Speaker 1: outside of us, the data that we take in from 210 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:05,996 Speaker 1: which we make whatever it is that we make comes 211 00:13:05,996 --> 00:13:08,236 Speaker 1: from outside of us, all of it. None of it 212 00:13:08,316 --> 00:13:12,716 Speaker 1: starts with us. Everything starts outside of us. So we 213 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:14,876 Speaker 1: have a storehouse of all of the stuff that we've 214 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:18,556 Speaker 1: experienced over the course of our lives, and then we 215 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:23,836 Speaker 1: can find connections between those things, and we can find 216 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:27,676 Speaker 1: connections between those things from the past and these things 217 00:13:27,676 --> 00:13:31,476 Speaker 1: happening now, whatever it may be. And when you're looking 218 00:13:31,516 --> 00:13:36,516 Speaker 1: for it, it's surprising how often the answers are right there. Yeah, 219 00:13:36,876 --> 00:13:40,516 Speaker 1: this is reading another with my favorite lines. Distraction is 220 00:13:40,556 --> 00:13:45,516 Speaker 1: not procrastination. Procrastination consistently undermines our ability to make things. 221 00:13:45,796 --> 00:13:49,316 Speaker 1: Distraction is a strategy in service of the work, which 222 00:13:49,396 --> 00:13:51,796 Speaker 1: is to your point. So a lot of what this 223 00:13:51,996 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 1: exposure to the world outside of us is about is 224 00:13:55,716 --> 00:13:59,116 Speaker 1: a kind of productive distraction, right, That's what you're saying 225 00:13:59,116 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 1: with that, it's a combination. There's a productive distraction and 226 00:14:02,876 --> 00:14:06,356 Speaker 1: an inspiration. The connection with the outside world also can 227 00:14:06,396 --> 00:14:08,796 Speaker 1: be really inspiring. It can be inspiring if you pick 228 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:11,556 Speaker 1: play that are inspiring. I try to pick places to 229 00:14:11,636 --> 00:14:14,716 Speaker 1: be where I find inspiration on a daily basis. You 230 00:14:14,796 --> 00:14:17,556 Speaker 1: have a little moment where you're talking about how different 231 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 1: all of us have different strategies for that kind of 232 00:14:22,556 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 1: inspirational place. And you said Andy Warhol was said to 233 00:14:25,556 --> 00:14:28,876 Speaker 1: create with a television, radio, and record player all on simultaneously. 234 00:14:29,236 --> 00:14:31,316 Speaker 1: For eminem the noise of a single TV set is 235 00:14:31,356 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 1: his preferred backdrop myself. Proust lined, as well as with 236 00:14:34,396 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 1: sound of absorbing cork, close the drapes and warrior plugs. 237 00:14:38,636 --> 00:14:40,956 Speaker 1: And I was curious, what's yours? Do you have a 238 00:14:41,036 --> 00:14:43,916 Speaker 1: kind of mode like that? I would say I like 239 00:14:44,036 --> 00:14:51,076 Speaker 1: to be in a quiet place, big beautiful nature, less people. Yeah, 240 00:14:51,156 --> 00:14:54,596 Speaker 1: i'd say natural beauty and less people. It's funny. I'm 241 00:14:54,636 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 1: exactly the opposite. I was right at a very productive 242 00:14:57,436 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 1: warning in a coffee shop. It was crowded, and I 243 00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 1: was seating it like literally right up against the six 244 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 1: foot four kid. I think it's like twenty two years old, 245 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 1: sitting next to his parents. And the kid was super interesting, 246 00:15:12,916 --> 00:15:15,996 Speaker 1: and he was talking about the PLO in the nineteen 247 00:15:16,076 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 1: seventies and yes, or Arafat, and there was something about 248 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:23,476 Speaker 1: like I don't know, I can't put my finger on what. 249 00:15:23,516 --> 00:15:25,756 Speaker 1: That kind of triggered After a while, I kind of 250 00:15:26,076 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: he became my background noise. But it was such a 251 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:32,596 Speaker 1: different voice that I was fixing a chapter of something 252 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:35,476 Speaker 1: I was working on, and I just thought suddenly saw 253 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:37,556 Speaker 1: a solution, and I think it was what we were 254 00:15:37,556 --> 00:15:40,876 Speaker 1: talking about. It was some combination of there's something about 255 00:15:40,956 --> 00:15:45,756 Speaker 1: that being surrounded by unusual voices that really wakes me 256 00:15:45,876 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 1: up to the range of solutions. Right, I'm reminded, Oh, 257 00:15:49,116 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 1: there's like, there's this kid who's thinking about something I 258 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:55,356 Speaker 1: don't think about in a context I'm not in. Who's 259 00:15:55,356 --> 00:15:58,396 Speaker 1: super interesting, Like, wow, so you know there's a solution 260 00:15:58,436 --> 00:15:59,916 Speaker 1: out there. It was that. It was funny because I 261 00:16:00,276 --> 00:16:02,276 Speaker 1: had just read your chapter which talks about that, and 262 00:16:02,356 --> 00:16:05,156 Speaker 1: I was in that situation. Is that a place that 263 00:16:05,196 --> 00:16:09,276 Speaker 1: you go to every day many days? I like, I 264 00:16:09,876 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: need I need so, I need voices. I need noise 265 00:16:14,156 --> 00:16:17,516 Speaker 1: and voices and activity in order to be able to create. 266 00:16:18,436 --> 00:16:22,876 Speaker 1: During the pandemic, I had one Sturgele Simpson album that 267 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:25,356 Speaker 1: I played over and over and over again. He was 268 00:16:25,396 --> 00:16:28,396 Speaker 1: my voice? Was it meta? Modern? Met? What is that? Albums? 269 00:16:28,436 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 1: Fantastic album? Whatever? Was so good? It's great. He was great. 270 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:35,076 Speaker 1: I don't know if he's out there. He helped me 271 00:16:35,156 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 1: through many, many lean times during the pandemic. But that 272 00:16:40,756 --> 00:16:45,276 Speaker 1: idea I almost feel like you're describing the things you 273 00:16:45,316 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 1: have learned by working with elite practitioners of the art 274 00:16:48,956 --> 00:16:52,116 Speaker 1: of creativity. But I was struck by the gap between 275 00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:55,996 Speaker 1: what you've learned from the top performers and what we're 276 00:16:56,036 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 1: teaching to people at the outset, and that it concerned me. 277 00:17:00,596 --> 00:17:03,476 Speaker 1: I almost feel like there's a gap between what we're 278 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 1: telling people and what the truly creative are doing. Yes, yes, 279 00:17:08,796 --> 00:17:12,916 Speaker 1: that's on the same point on this gap. There's a 280 00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:15,076 Speaker 1: moment when you're talking about secually my favorite part of 281 00:17:15,076 --> 00:17:19,356 Speaker 1: the book, when you're talking about strategies for unblocking yourself 282 00:17:19,716 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 1: in all the different ways that you think about that 283 00:17:22,956 --> 00:17:26,196 Speaker 1: or approach that when you're working with people and one 284 00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:29,356 Speaker 1: of them was right right in the voice of someone else, 285 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:33,956 Speaker 1: that's what we said, and Rick, once again, in the 286 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 1: world we live in, that is an incendiary thought. That's 287 00:17:39,036 --> 00:17:42,396 Speaker 1: called appropriation. And you have this beautiful I want to 288 00:17:42,476 --> 00:17:47,276 Speaker 1: quote in a similar vein you say there are countless 289 00:17:47,276 --> 00:17:51,836 Speaker 1: examples of imitation turning into legitimate innovation. Having a romanticized 290 00:17:51,916 --> 00:17:54,436 Speaker 1: vision of an artist, genre, or tradition may allow you 291 00:17:54,476 --> 00:17:57,156 Speaker 1: to create something new because you see it from a 292 00:17:57,156 --> 00:18:00,796 Speaker 1: different perspective than those closer to it. So not only 293 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 1: you saying that it can be really useful to inhabit 294 00:18:03,196 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 1: someone else's voice or tradition, you're also saying that that 295 00:18:07,636 --> 00:18:13,316 Speaker 1: can spark whole new, more beautiful, greater kind of innovation 296 00:18:13,356 --> 00:18:16,116 Speaker 1: because you're approaching it from your own perspective. You talking 297 00:18:16,116 --> 00:18:19,156 Speaker 1: about Sergio Leone's Spaghetti Westerns being a good example of that, 298 00:18:19,156 --> 00:18:22,876 Speaker 1: that they transform understanding of what a western is. I 299 00:18:22,956 --> 00:18:25,516 Speaker 1: thought a lot about the audiobook we did with Paul 300 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:30,356 Speaker 1: Simon when he's talking about Graceland, which is that right, yes? 301 00:18:31,956 --> 00:18:35,716 Speaker 1: Or talking heads you know, remain in light or fear 302 00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:40,596 Speaker 1: of music. Those were inspired by African rhythms. Yeah, there's 303 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:44,036 Speaker 1: a great tradition in doing this. I mean if pretty 304 00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:48,956 Speaker 1: much the best of everything was based on something else, always, 305 00:18:49,476 --> 00:18:52,516 Speaker 1: and then it's the it's through the new interpretations. Like 306 00:18:52,556 --> 00:18:56,836 Speaker 1: the Beatles were doing American motown music, but because they 307 00:18:56,836 --> 00:19:00,596 Speaker 1: were English and because of the distance, they weren't trying 308 00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:03,316 Speaker 1: to do it different. They did it different because they 309 00:19:03,316 --> 00:19:05,596 Speaker 1: were different. Yeah, and that was the beauty of it. 310 00:19:05,636 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 1: And that's how the Beatles became the Beatles, you know. Yeah, 311 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 1: they became the Beatles because they are the Beatles, but 312 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: the music they were doing was they were trying to 313 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:17,076 Speaker 1: do motown or as you point out, the Ramones were 314 00:19:17,076 --> 00:19:20,196 Speaker 1: trying to be the Base City Rollers. Yes, which is 315 00:19:20,196 --> 00:19:23,516 Speaker 1: a true. Yeah, Johnny Ramone told me that himself, so 316 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:25,996 Speaker 1: I know that to be true. That is so hilary 317 00:19:26,116 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 1: for those of you who don't know the Basity Rollers. 318 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:32,156 Speaker 1: They were just about the dumbest bubble bubble gum band 319 00:19:32,196 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 1: of the They were like the boy band of the 320 00:19:35,236 --> 00:19:39,356 Speaker 1: early seventies. And the Ramones think that they had that 321 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 1: song s A t U R d a y n 322 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:44,796 Speaker 1: s A t u R. And then if you listen 323 00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:48,716 Speaker 1: to the Ramones, they have those type of gabba gabby 324 00:19:49,116 --> 00:19:53,156 Speaker 1: you we accept you know, similar types of chance. Yes, 325 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:55,276 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, they take it and they twist it 326 00:19:55,276 --> 00:20:00,436 Speaker 1: in this brilliant, beautiful revolutionary way. But so we look 327 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:02,556 Speaker 1: about I sort of harp on this, but how do 328 00:20:02,636 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 1: we get away from that notion? So it is legitimately 329 00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:08,036 Speaker 1: the case, and I know this because I are examples 330 00:20:08,036 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 1: of people who I know who are legitimately terrified of 331 00:20:12,436 --> 00:20:17,156 Speaker 1: even so much as dipping their toe in another traditionary voice, 332 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:21,636 Speaker 1: for fear of being criticized it's almost like we're terrified 333 00:20:21,676 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 1: of the sources of creativity. We're terrified to admit to 334 00:20:25,956 --> 00:20:28,916 Speaker 1: ourselves what we're doing in the name of creativity. The 335 00:20:29,076 --> 00:20:34,916 Speaker 1: reason someone imitates someone else is because they love someone else. 336 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:39,196 Speaker 1: That's why it's only flattery when someone is inspired by 337 00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 1: someone else. If you if you decided to write because 338 00:20:42,316 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 1: someone else wrote and you like their writing, and you 339 00:20:44,956 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: decide to become a writer, that's not against them, That 340 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: doesn't take anything away from them. That's a tribute to them. Yeah, 341 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:57,276 Speaker 1: And all of the music that gets made based on 342 00:20:57,596 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 1: loving someone else's music is attribute to them. Whether it 343 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:03,556 Speaker 1: be people of the same color or different color, doesn't 344 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 1: matter that it has nothing to do with that. That's 345 00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:09,916 Speaker 1: not what it's about. Yeah, it's a current misread of 346 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:12,996 Speaker 1: the situation. Yes, you know what it is, and it 347 00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:14,476 Speaker 1: goes to something else. You talk a little bit, You 348 00:21:14,476 --> 00:21:17,716 Speaker 1: talk about the abundance mindset in getting to that part 349 00:21:17,716 --> 00:21:20,476 Speaker 1: of the book. You talk about the importance of understanding 350 00:21:20,516 --> 00:21:23,796 Speaker 1: that number of ideas, essentially, the number of ideas out 351 00:21:23,836 --> 00:21:27,156 Speaker 1: there is infinite, not finite. Yes, when you understand it's 352 00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:31,676 Speaker 1: infinite there, then you're not scared of imitating someone because 353 00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:33,716 Speaker 1: You're like, there's a million things out there we don't 354 00:21:33,796 --> 00:21:35,916 Speaker 1: we don't have to hold tightly to what we've done 355 00:21:36,276 --> 00:21:40,916 Speaker 1: and be react in a hostile manner if someone tries 356 00:21:40,956 --> 00:21:43,996 Speaker 1: to imitate us, because there's a million fishing to see. 357 00:21:44,076 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 1: You know, it's fine. I think the idea that the 358 00:21:47,036 --> 00:21:50,396 Speaker 1: number of new ideas is infinite has kind of fallen 359 00:21:50,436 --> 00:21:53,676 Speaker 1: out of favor somehow. Yeah, it's it's just odd. It's 360 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:57,716 Speaker 1: I mean, people can be wrong and it's okay, you know, 361 00:21:57,876 --> 00:22:00,436 Speaker 1: like that's fine. In some ways, the fact that's fallen 362 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:05,396 Speaker 1: out of favor means the people who embrace the tried 363 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 1: and true methods that have worked will find greater success 364 00:22:09,156 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: and they'll be less stuff in between. Yeah, is your 365 00:22:13,876 --> 00:22:18,396 Speaker 1: understanding of this notion of abundance? Is it a product 366 00:22:18,476 --> 00:22:21,476 Speaker 1: of having worked for I don't know how many years 367 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 1: you've been in the industry, many decades. Did you feel 368 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:25,716 Speaker 1: the same way when you were twenty one and there 369 00:22:25,796 --> 00:22:28,316 Speaker 1: was Is it natural for the very for the very 370 00:22:28,356 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 1: young to be much more jealous, to touch more jealously 371 00:22:31,676 --> 00:22:35,156 Speaker 1: guard their ideas because they haven't had years and years 372 00:22:35,156 --> 00:22:38,316 Speaker 1: of experience in seeing the kind of waterfall of ideas 373 00:22:38,316 --> 00:22:41,316 Speaker 1: that's out there. Is that fair? No, it's fair. I've 374 00:22:41,356 --> 00:22:44,676 Speaker 1: always felt this way because I see it, you know, 375 00:22:44,716 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 1: I see all of the ideas I see I want 376 00:22:47,236 --> 00:22:49,596 Speaker 1: to learn everything. There's no time. There's no time to 377 00:22:49,676 --> 00:22:53,396 Speaker 1: learn all the things I want to learn. I'm endlessly curious, 378 00:22:53,756 --> 00:22:58,116 Speaker 1: and I'm always looking. I'm thinking back to It's really 379 00:22:58,156 --> 00:23:00,236 Speaker 1: more about what we were just talking about. But the 380 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 1: reason I learned about reggae music was because of the Clash. 381 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:06,156 Speaker 1: If it weren't for the Clash, I don't know if 382 00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 1: I would have ever come in contact with reggae music. 383 00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:12,316 Speaker 1: So is it bad that the Clash did reggae music 384 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:16,836 Speaker 1: because they turned on a whole generation of people who 385 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 1: otherwise may not have ever heard about it. Do you know? 386 00:23:21,076 --> 00:23:25,156 Speaker 1: It's like, it's it's a crazy idea to think that, 387 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:28,796 Speaker 1: not to be inspired by the things that are inspiring 388 00:23:28,916 --> 00:23:32,396 Speaker 1: us and to show it and to own it and 389 00:23:32,436 --> 00:23:36,956 Speaker 1: to fly the flag of these great trends or genres 390 00:23:37,836 --> 00:23:41,036 Speaker 1: is nothing more beautiful. Yeah, we're gonna pause for a 391 00:23:41,076 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 1: quick break and then we'll be back with more from 392 00:23:43,196 --> 00:23:47,916 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell. We're back with more from 393 00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:52,436 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell. I remember pretty early in 394 00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 1: my writing career when I was unhappy. I thought I 395 00:23:55,316 --> 00:23:57,676 Speaker 1: was I was limited as a writer. And I remember 396 00:23:57,716 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 1: sitting down with I've forgotten which book it was, one 397 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:04,436 Speaker 1: of Michael Lewis's books and one of Janet Malcolm's books, 398 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:09,796 Speaker 1: two narrative nonfiction writers who are extra really good at 399 00:24:10,396 --> 00:24:12,396 Speaker 1: the one thing I thought I was weak at, which 400 00:24:12,436 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 1: is character, literally sitting down and studying them like they 401 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:19,916 Speaker 1: were a talmud, Like, what's he doing here? How much 402 00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:22,596 Speaker 1: time does he spend literally measuring how much time does 403 00:24:22,636 --> 00:24:27,036 Speaker 1: he spend describing someone? I was getting itchy feet. I 404 00:24:27,036 --> 00:24:29,236 Speaker 1: would I didn't induce a character, and I think, oh, 405 00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: you must be bored of the character list, And then 406 00:24:30,796 --> 00:24:33,556 Speaker 1: I would Michael Lewison was like, he is the same 407 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 1: character of the whole book and we're not bored of him. 408 00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 1: How does he do that right? Or Jeta Malcolm would 409 00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:40,876 Speaker 1: like peel one layer after another off the onion. You'd 410 00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:42,956 Speaker 1: be like, there can't be any onion left. There was 411 00:24:42,996 --> 00:24:45,636 Speaker 1: always onion left. I was like, how does she do that? 412 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:48,996 Speaker 1: To your point? About you got that lovely thing about 413 00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 1: the back and forth between the Beatles and the Beach Boys, 414 00:24:52,916 --> 00:24:56,916 Speaker 1: Brian Wilson sees White album and says it white album 415 00:24:56,996 --> 00:25:00,436 Speaker 1: that inspired it starts with it starts with rubber Soul. 416 00:25:00,636 --> 00:25:03,716 Speaker 1: It starts with rubber Soul. Yeah, and then based on 417 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:08,356 Speaker 1: Brian Wilson hearing Rubber Soul, he makes pet Sounds based 418 00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: on the song Only Knows, Paul has the idea for 419 00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:16,916 Speaker 1: Sergeant Pepper. Yeah. And the point that I make there 420 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:20,636 Speaker 1: is not they weren't doing that at a competition. It 421 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:26,276 Speaker 1: was out of love and inspiration, and it was an 422 00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:32,476 Speaker 1: upward spiral between them of inspire reaction, inspirer reaction, lifting 423 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:35,716 Speaker 1: the level, lifting the level. It was they made each 424 00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 1: other better. They weren't trying to beat each other. It 425 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:42,436 Speaker 1: was different than that they loved each other. Yeah, explain 426 00:25:42,516 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 1: to me. It's suit of obvious, but I'd love for 427 00:25:44,196 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 1: you to talk about it. Why is it important that 428 00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 1: it comes out of love and not competition. What is 429 00:25:49,356 --> 00:25:53,796 Speaker 1: it about a competitive drive that is more limiting than 430 00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:56,876 Speaker 1: a drive of love. Well, first of all, we're talking 431 00:25:56,916 --> 00:26:00,076 Speaker 1: about majority of what we're talking about is art, and 432 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:03,396 Speaker 1: the way that I see art is it really is 433 00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:07,676 Speaker 1: about our own self expression. So I'll give you an example. 434 00:26:07,836 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: I just wrote a book you write a lot of books. 435 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:14,796 Speaker 1: The idea of Rick's book competing with Malcolm's book is 436 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:19,476 Speaker 1: an insane idea. You write a Malcolm book, I write 437 00:26:19,476 --> 00:26:22,556 Speaker 1: a Rick book. No one but Malcolm can write a 438 00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:25,436 Speaker 1: Malcolm book. No one but Rick can write a Ric book. 439 00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 1: They're mutually exclusive things. Everything is like that. So if 440 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 1: you're focused on beating someone else, it makes me think 441 00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:39,076 Speaker 1: you're not actually playing the same game that I'm playing. 442 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:41,436 Speaker 1: The game that I'm playing is I want to make 443 00:26:41,476 --> 00:26:44,996 Speaker 1: the best thing that I can make for me, that's all, 444 00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:48,396 Speaker 1: and if someone else likes it, it's great. There's a 445 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:51,476 Speaker 1: chapter in the book about success, which is success is 446 00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:54,156 Speaker 1: when you feel good enough about it, a piece of 447 00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:57,076 Speaker 1: work you've made to share it in the world. That's 448 00:26:57,116 --> 00:26:59,956 Speaker 1: the moment of success. Whatever happens after that's completely out 449 00:26:59,956 --> 00:27:02,516 Speaker 1: of our control. But the moment that you sign off, 450 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:05,196 Speaker 1: it's like here, okay, here we go, and then move 451 00:27:05,236 --> 00:27:09,476 Speaker 1: on to your next project. That's where success lies. So 452 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:14,316 Speaker 1: to work on a vibration of competition. It's one thing. 453 00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:17,476 Speaker 1: If it's about running a race, this is not running 454 00:27:17,476 --> 00:27:22,116 Speaker 1: a race. This really is always apples and oranges. Yeah, 455 00:27:22,156 --> 00:27:25,476 Speaker 1: although you know it's funny, I think you're selling your 456 00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:28,316 Speaker 1: idea a little short. I was thinking about this when 457 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:30,996 Speaker 1: I read that part. I'm a big fan of cars, 458 00:27:31,756 --> 00:27:36,556 Speaker 1: and there's a very particular moment in the early aughts 459 00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:42,676 Speaker 1: when car design goes through a stage that I think 460 00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:45,156 Speaker 1: everyone in the who loves cars thinks was one of 461 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:49,116 Speaker 1: a kind of extraordinary moment of It was a kind 462 00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:51,676 Speaker 1: of when cars started to look very kind of bowhousing. 463 00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:53,596 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know cars, but there was a 464 00:27:53,676 --> 00:27:56,076 Speaker 1: very beautiful E class that Mercedes put out in the 465 00:27:56,076 --> 00:28:00,236 Speaker 1: early arts, which is very clean lines, round headlights. At 466 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:04,076 Speaker 1: the same time, Audie put out the first iteration of 467 00:28:04,076 --> 00:28:05,796 Speaker 1: the style they're still in, but it was very clean 468 00:28:05,876 --> 00:28:09,116 Speaker 1: and very They all were doing this a very similar esthetic, 469 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:11,316 Speaker 1: which was a rejection of a lot of the kind 470 00:28:11,316 --> 00:28:14,156 Speaker 1: of clutter and complication that had gone on in the 471 00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:16,836 Speaker 1: in the previous generation of car design. And you could 472 00:28:16,876 --> 00:28:20,676 Speaker 1: see it across all the kind of elite carmakers. And 473 00:28:21,476 --> 00:28:23,196 Speaker 1: you know, normally you would say, these are guys who 474 00:28:23,196 --> 00:28:25,836 Speaker 1: really are in competition with each other. They're battling over 475 00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:29,036 Speaker 1: a finite marketplace. They're making the same thing cars of 476 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:35,196 Speaker 1: people drive. But they weren't all pursuing this Ballhouse design strategy. 477 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:38,316 Speaker 1: It was out of love. Absolutely. The guy at Audie 478 00:28:39,236 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 1: saw that E class and it's like, oh my god, 479 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:44,516 Speaker 1: that's a gorgeous car. I want to do my version 480 00:28:44,516 --> 00:28:46,436 Speaker 1: of it. I mean it was no, it wasn't like 481 00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:50,356 Speaker 1: let's take market share from you know, at that level. 482 00:28:50,396 --> 00:28:52,276 Speaker 1: I mean maybe it was in the marketing group, but 483 00:28:52,316 --> 00:28:56,036 Speaker 1: at the level of the designer, it was clearly they 484 00:28:56,116 --> 00:29:00,916 Speaker 1: all fell in love with this particular So I think 485 00:29:00,956 --> 00:29:04,676 Speaker 1: it goes beyond what we think of as the as 486 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:07,236 Speaker 1: the art narrowly as the arts. I think you see 487 00:29:07,276 --> 00:29:11,396 Speaker 1: it everywhere that fun mentally in a million different ways. 488 00:29:11,636 --> 00:29:15,036 Speaker 1: Even people who are locked in competition with each other 489 00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:18,156 Speaker 1: sometimes push that aside and do things out of a 490 00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:20,956 Speaker 1: genuine affection for what they were just they're just blown 491 00:29:20,956 --> 00:29:22,476 Speaker 1: away by something they see, you know, they're like, oh 492 00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:27,196 Speaker 1: my god, here's an even more metaphysical version of that, 493 00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:32,636 Speaker 1: where the same thing happens, but it's not a reaction. 494 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:37,276 Speaker 1: So in the example you gave, Mercedes came out with 495 00:29:37,316 --> 00:29:41,516 Speaker 1: a beautiful new design, an Autie inspired by that design 496 00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:49,036 Speaker 1: made something new. They're also throughout history examples of two 497 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:57,956 Speaker 1: or three similar novel approaches entering at the same time. Yeah, 498 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 1: not based on seeing each other. Yeah, just based on 499 00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:07,036 Speaker 1: it's time for this. Yeah. And maybe it's possible that 500 00:30:07,076 --> 00:30:10,636 Speaker 1: the thing that inspired Mercedes to want to do it 501 00:30:10,716 --> 00:30:13,516 Speaker 1: is the thing that inspired Audie to want to do it. 502 00:30:13,556 --> 00:30:17,916 Speaker 1: But that's different than Audie wanting to copy what Mercedes did. Yeah. 503 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:21,716 Speaker 1: And that's a fascinating thing when there are these movements 504 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:24,796 Speaker 1: of art where it just springs up all over the 505 00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 1: planet at the same time, not because they saw it 506 00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:29,436 Speaker 1: and want to do it, but because now is the 507 00:30:29,436 --> 00:30:32,516 Speaker 1: time for this new thing, whatever it is. Yeah, But 508 00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:36,116 Speaker 1: at its root, it's the same thing because they're falling 509 00:30:36,116 --> 00:30:39,756 Speaker 1: in love with the same idea in the world simultaneously. 510 00:30:40,236 --> 00:30:42,116 Speaker 1: You can o have fall in love with what Joe 511 00:30:42,156 --> 00:30:45,356 Speaker 1: across the pond is doing, or me and Joe can 512 00:30:45,396 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 1: fall in love with something you know in the world 513 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:51,716 Speaker 1: of ideas that's really beautiful and novel. But I think 514 00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:54,916 Speaker 1: that the engine is the same, which is it's love. Yes, 515 00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:59,076 Speaker 1: it seems more magical when there isn't when you don't 516 00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:02,156 Speaker 1: see one like it first. Yeah, there's something about it. 517 00:31:02,236 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 1: When I don't know if it's ever happened to you, 518 00:31:04,916 --> 00:31:06,916 Speaker 1: it has happened to me. Where I'll have an idea 519 00:31:06,956 --> 00:31:09,876 Speaker 1: for something and I don't act on that right away, 520 00:31:10,276 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 1: and then within six months or a year someone else 521 00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:16,276 Speaker 1: does it. They didn't steal my idea. Yeah, it was 522 00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:19,076 Speaker 1: time for that to happen. Let's keep going to so 523 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:20,996 Speaker 1: much wonderful stuff here I want to give I want 524 00:31:21,036 --> 00:31:24,116 Speaker 1: to give listeners more of a taste of several moments 525 00:31:24,156 --> 00:31:27,636 Speaker 1: when I was either surprised and in one case really 526 00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:33,516 Speaker 1: genuinely wanted more of a explanation. And that was when 527 00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:36,916 Speaker 1: the work has five mistakes, it's not yet completed. When 528 00:31:36,916 --> 00:31:39,796 Speaker 1: it has eight mistakes, it might be Yes, Rick, what 529 00:31:39,836 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 1: does that mean? We get hung up on the idea 530 00:31:42,916 --> 00:31:47,676 Speaker 1: of perfection and we think perfection is what we're looking for, 531 00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:52,876 Speaker 1: when really what we're looking for is something with emotion 532 00:31:52,916 --> 00:31:56,556 Speaker 1: in it, something with humanity in it, and humanity has flaws. 533 00:31:57,756 --> 00:32:02,476 Speaker 1: So we can use the example of the leaning power 534 00:32:02,476 --> 00:32:04,156 Speaker 1: of pizza. At the time that it was made, it 535 00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 1: was a mistake, and now it's one of the most 536 00:32:06,916 --> 00:32:10,756 Speaker 1: visited buildings in the world, and it's visited purely because 537 00:32:10,756 --> 00:32:15,796 Speaker 1: of the mistake. You know. We collect old Persian rugs 538 00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:18,956 Speaker 1: that were handmade and that have been lived in whereas 539 00:32:18,996 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 1: you can buy a new machine made rug now that's 540 00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 1: more perfect than that, but it doesn't have the same 541 00:32:26,276 --> 00:32:30,156 Speaker 1: humanity in it. And the reason I use the example 542 00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:33,796 Speaker 1: of five and eight art their random choices, those are 543 00:32:33,836 --> 00:32:38,436 Speaker 1: not specific, does not if you have five, you got 544 00:32:38,436 --> 00:32:40,756 Speaker 1: to get to eight for it to work. But it's 545 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:43,556 Speaker 1: a way of thinking where we're not looking to make 546 00:32:43,596 --> 00:32:49,236 Speaker 1: it perfect. We're looking for the soulful version that could 547 00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:53,876 Speaker 1: either be going further towards perfection or backwards away from it. 548 00:32:54,436 --> 00:32:56,796 Speaker 1: And it might just as well be backwards away from 549 00:32:56,836 --> 00:32:58,876 Speaker 1: it for it to feel good when we're making art. 550 00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:02,596 Speaker 1: Can you think about a project you've worked on that 551 00:33:02,756 --> 00:33:07,276 Speaker 1: you think is beautiful and authentic in precisely this imperfect 552 00:33:07,316 --> 00:33:11,596 Speaker 1: way that has mistakes? Do you think it benefited from 553 00:33:11,636 --> 00:33:14,756 Speaker 1: I can give you an example close to both of 554 00:33:14,756 --> 00:33:18,716 Speaker 1: our hearts, which is interesting. When we had the Broken 555 00:33:18,836 --> 00:33:24,636 Speaker 1: Record logo design, it was originally done, it was designed 556 00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:27,996 Speaker 1: on a computer, and it was of a very formal design, 557 00:33:28,076 --> 00:33:32,236 Speaker 1: graphic design, and a friend of mine suggested you would 558 00:33:32,276 --> 00:33:34,996 Speaker 1: have tried to doing that by hand? Yeah, And then 559 00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:37,516 Speaker 1: we suggested to the design and try it by hand, 560 00:33:37,636 --> 00:33:39,196 Speaker 1: and the one that we ended up picking was the 561 00:33:39,236 --> 00:33:43,276 Speaker 1: one done by hand. It was less perfect than the 562 00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:48,116 Speaker 1: original version, but it had more personality. Yeah, it's very 563 00:33:48,116 --> 00:33:51,036 Speaker 1: clarifying because I think it's very easy to lose sight 564 00:33:51,076 --> 00:33:55,276 Speaker 1: of what the audience for a work of art wants. 565 00:33:56,036 --> 00:33:58,436 Speaker 1: They want the creator, they want to it's a way 566 00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:01,556 Speaker 1: of looking into the mind or heart of the creator. 567 00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:05,396 Speaker 1: They want. Don't want some abstract thing that fits every 568 00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:09,476 Speaker 1: criteria of perfection, right, we're looking for, you know. To 569 00:34:09,516 --> 00:34:13,036 Speaker 1: give the example back of when I went through my 570 00:34:13,036 --> 00:34:16,436 Speaker 1: period where I was obsessively reading Michael Lewis and Janet Malcolm, 571 00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:19,716 Speaker 1: Jenna Malcolm's a good example of this or both. When 572 00:34:19,756 --> 00:34:23,636 Speaker 1: you read them, you feel like you you know the 573 00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:25,716 Speaker 1: two of those writers. When you read their writing. At 574 00:34:25,756 --> 00:34:28,156 Speaker 1: the end of a Michael Lewis book, you feel like 575 00:34:28,196 --> 00:34:30,796 Speaker 1: you've been hanging out with him and have a window 576 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:34,636 Speaker 1: into his world. Jenna Malcolm's books are weird and quirky 577 00:34:34,676 --> 00:34:38,436 Speaker 1: and sometimes disturbing, but you love that because you're like, oh, 578 00:34:38,556 --> 00:34:41,756 Speaker 1: she's such a kind of fascinating character. And my worry 579 00:34:41,956 --> 00:34:46,156 Speaker 1: when I was reading them was that people weren't having that. 580 00:34:46,156 --> 00:34:48,916 Speaker 1: That was not the experience my readers were having. That 581 00:34:48,996 --> 00:34:52,316 Speaker 1: they were getting they were getting something that was too abstract. 582 00:34:52,876 --> 00:34:56,836 Speaker 1: They were getting information, but not that kind of They 583 00:34:56,836 --> 00:35:00,156 Speaker 1: weren't really getting me. You know, it took a long time. 584 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:03,596 Speaker 1: We're talking about. That thing I'm describing was twenty years 585 00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:07,356 Speaker 1: into my writing career, and what you're talking about is 586 00:35:07,876 --> 00:35:13,836 Speaker 1: really mo moving away from classical journalism, because my understanding 587 00:35:13,876 --> 00:35:17,796 Speaker 1: of journalism is the writer is invisible. It's only the 588 00:35:17,916 --> 00:35:20,676 Speaker 1: story and it's just, you know, just the facts. That's 589 00:35:20,676 --> 00:35:24,596 Speaker 1: all it is. So in a way, this would be 590 00:35:24,756 --> 00:35:30,116 Speaker 1: a bastardization of journalism. But that's why it's engaging, and 591 00:35:30,196 --> 00:35:33,036 Speaker 1: that's why it's interesting, and that's why it's popular. It's 592 00:35:33,116 --> 00:35:38,356 Speaker 1: not regular journalism. It's it's journalism through your filter, the 593 00:35:38,516 --> 00:35:42,676 Speaker 1: personal filter. There's a there's a documentarian named Nick Broomfield 594 00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:46,796 Speaker 1: who I love, who makes these crazy movies. He tends 595 00:35:46,836 --> 00:35:51,196 Speaker 1: to pick outrageous characters to focus on, but he always 596 00:35:51,276 --> 00:35:56,196 Speaker 1: ends up part of the movie. And usually when documentarians 597 00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:58,756 Speaker 1: make a movie, you just see the subject, but he 598 00:35:58,996 --> 00:36:02,476 Speaker 1: ensconces himself into the finds a way to insinuate himself 599 00:36:02,516 --> 00:36:07,276 Speaker 1: into the story, and it's wild and bizarre, and it's 600 00:36:07,356 --> 00:36:09,756 Speaker 1: unusual for the director of a documentary to become a 601 00:36:09,756 --> 00:36:12,916 Speaker 1: main character in every one of the documentaries he makes 602 00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:17,876 Speaker 1: about different people. Fascinating. Yeah, so I love it. Yeah, Wait, 603 00:36:17,916 --> 00:36:19,716 Speaker 1: a couple of other things. I want to I want 604 00:36:19,716 --> 00:36:22,556 Speaker 1: to make sure we um. You had this little section 605 00:36:22,796 --> 00:36:27,716 Speaker 1: that I loved when you're talking about AlphaGo, the AI 606 00:36:27,956 --> 00:36:31,716 Speaker 1: software system that was designed to master the game of 607 00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 1: the Japanese game of Go, and how there's this famous 608 00:36:36,156 --> 00:36:39,796 Speaker 1: showdown between the computer and a Go grand master, and 609 00:36:39,876 --> 00:36:43,436 Speaker 1: the computer wins by making a move that had never 610 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:46,036 Speaker 1: occurred to any Go player. You know, they had you say, 611 00:36:46,036 --> 00:36:48,636 Speaker 1: you say there was most Go players would have considered 612 00:36:48,676 --> 00:36:51,316 Speaker 1: A or B choice, and the computer went to see 613 00:36:51,436 --> 00:36:54,836 Speaker 1: and it blew ever Yuin's mind. And you said when 614 00:36:54,876 --> 00:36:58,316 Speaker 1: you read about that that you cried. I did, and 615 00:36:58,356 --> 00:37:00,596 Speaker 1: it was it wasn't I didn't read about it. I 616 00:37:00,596 --> 00:37:03,196 Speaker 1: watched the documentary. You watched the documentary. Yeah, I was 617 00:37:03,236 --> 00:37:06,076 Speaker 1: watching a documentary about it and it made me cry. 618 00:37:06,156 --> 00:37:10,596 Speaker 1: And when I cried, I didn't unders stand it at first. 619 00:37:11,316 --> 00:37:15,196 Speaker 1: It took a while I thought about it more. My 620 00:37:15,276 --> 00:37:18,476 Speaker 1: reaction forced me to think about it more. It's like, 621 00:37:18,556 --> 00:37:21,356 Speaker 1: why am I crying? I'm not invested. I don't play go, 622 00:37:21,996 --> 00:37:26,116 Speaker 1: I'm not invested in this story at all. Yet I'm crying. 623 00:37:27,196 --> 00:37:32,636 Speaker 1: And originally my first thought was, am I crying because 624 00:37:32,716 --> 00:37:36,956 Speaker 1: machines are beating humans? No, that's not what it is. 625 00:37:37,956 --> 00:37:43,756 Speaker 1: I'm crying because the way that the computer one wasn't 626 00:37:43,876 --> 00:37:48,476 Speaker 1: by knowing more than the grand Master. The computer one 627 00:37:48,956 --> 00:37:52,116 Speaker 1: because it knew less than the grand Master. And that's 628 00:37:52,116 --> 00:37:55,996 Speaker 1: what made me cry. It's that the computer didn't have 629 00:37:56,156 --> 00:38:02,596 Speaker 1: all of the baggage and cultural dogma of how you're 630 00:38:02,636 --> 00:38:06,476 Speaker 1: supposed to play Go. It only knew these are the 631 00:38:06,556 --> 00:38:08,276 Speaker 1: rules of the game. I'm playing the rules of the game. 632 00:38:09,156 --> 00:38:11,596 Speaker 1: And it was fascinating to me because it made me 633 00:38:11,796 --> 00:38:17,156 Speaker 1: realize if we can let go of the beliefs of 634 00:38:17,156 --> 00:38:22,036 Speaker 1: what how we're supposed to do things, anything maybe possible. 635 00:38:23,116 --> 00:38:24,916 Speaker 1: It's the tip of the iceberg for the game Go, 636 00:38:25,116 --> 00:38:29,236 Speaker 1: for sure, but maybe it's the tip of the iceberg 637 00:38:29,316 --> 00:38:32,356 Speaker 1: for everything. And if we can get back to that 638 00:38:32,956 --> 00:38:37,876 Speaker 1: beginner's mind of not knowing, of accepting that we don't know, 639 00:38:38,596 --> 00:38:42,556 Speaker 1: we can break through in ways never understood before. Yeah, 640 00:38:42,836 --> 00:38:46,756 Speaker 1: never thought possible before. It's funny because I didn't see 641 00:38:46,756 --> 00:38:50,316 Speaker 1: this documentary and when I read about your description of 642 00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:53,796 Speaker 1: how much you were moved by that moment. I was 643 00:38:53,836 --> 00:38:57,676 Speaker 1: also moved, but not for the reasons you were. I 644 00:38:57,716 --> 00:39:01,956 Speaker 1: was moved because what that told me was that when 645 00:39:02,036 --> 00:39:06,956 Speaker 1: human beings play Go, they're not playing Go. In other words, 646 00:39:07,476 --> 00:39:11,756 Speaker 1: the computer saw Go in it's entirety in a technical sense, 647 00:39:12,636 --> 00:39:15,436 Speaker 1: so every conceivable movie you could make made one that 648 00:39:15,476 --> 00:39:18,276 Speaker 1: would never have occurred to us. When human beings play Go, 649 00:39:18,356 --> 00:39:24,676 Speaker 1: we're playing this very small, parochial version, governed not just 650 00:39:24,716 --> 00:39:29,956 Speaker 1: by the rules and potentials of the board, but by 651 00:39:29,996 --> 00:39:36,436 Speaker 1: our own assumptions, habits, practices, culturals. And I actually kind 652 00:39:36,436 --> 00:39:39,716 Speaker 1: of love that about us, In other words, that we've 653 00:39:39,836 --> 00:39:44,676 Speaker 1: colonized and humanized and brought all of our kind of 654 00:39:44,916 --> 00:39:51,876 Speaker 1: heartrending limitations even to something like a board game. That's 655 00:39:51,956 --> 00:39:55,556 Speaker 1: very moving to me. Like the computer has the chili 656 00:39:55,636 --> 00:39:58,916 Speaker 1: impersonal version of Go, and this reminds us we're not 657 00:39:59,036 --> 00:40:03,116 Speaker 1: playing the chili impersonal version. Our Go bears the imprint 658 00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:07,996 Speaker 1: of our own limitations and cultural specificities. And I find 659 00:40:08,036 --> 00:40:13,036 Speaker 1: that really endearing, you know, like great, but it's funny 660 00:40:13,356 --> 00:40:16,556 Speaker 1: we both see the same thing and are moved by it. 661 00:40:16,636 --> 00:40:18,756 Speaker 1: I don't think what I'm saying what you're saying are incompatible. 662 00:40:18,756 --> 00:40:21,996 Speaker 1: I think they're actually compatible. No, I think they're almost opposites. 663 00:40:22,236 --> 00:40:25,756 Speaker 1: And the fact that they are both something to fall 664 00:40:25,796 --> 00:40:29,276 Speaker 1: in love with about the story is amazing. I love that. Yeah, 665 00:40:29,316 --> 00:40:32,676 Speaker 1: but this is actually something that you, Well, what I've 666 00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:35,076 Speaker 1: just described is something you do a lot in this book, 667 00:40:35,076 --> 00:40:38,956 Speaker 1: which is there are a lot of moments where it 668 00:40:39,036 --> 00:40:42,996 Speaker 1: appears that you're making points that contradict each other, but 669 00:40:43,076 --> 00:40:46,516 Speaker 1: you're not. This is the furthest from Black and White. 670 00:40:46,836 --> 00:40:48,356 Speaker 1: This book. There is a lot of this kind of 671 00:40:48,436 --> 00:40:51,436 Speaker 1: yinging and yanging in it. I thought was really very 672 00:40:51,556 --> 00:40:56,276 Speaker 1: very you. It's very like it's not like you do 673 00:40:56,316 --> 00:40:59,276 Speaker 1: it this way, not this way. Like the necessity of 674 00:40:59,316 --> 00:41:04,796 Speaker 1: being both inwardly sensitive and outwardly sensitive. It's not one 675 00:41:04,876 --> 00:41:06,996 Speaker 1: or the other. It's like just it's there's a balance 676 00:41:06,996 --> 00:41:09,636 Speaker 1: that you have to kind of observe. We'll be right 677 00:41:09,636 --> 00:41:12,596 Speaker 1: back with the rest of Malcolm Gladwell and Rick Rubin's conversation. 678 00:41:13,196 --> 00:41:17,516 Speaker 1: After a quick break, we're back with more from Rick 679 00:41:17,596 --> 00:41:21,716 Speaker 1: Ruben and Malcolm Gladwell. There's a passage there that I 680 00:41:21,756 --> 00:41:24,596 Speaker 1: really love what you're talking about. Sometimes there is a 681 00:41:24,676 --> 00:41:28,756 Speaker 1: musician who you'll listen to when they're trying something radically new, 682 00:41:29,716 --> 00:41:32,596 Speaker 1: remember this, and you're baffled by it the first time 683 00:41:32,636 --> 00:41:34,476 Speaker 1: you listen, and baffled the second time, and you keep 684 00:41:34,516 --> 00:41:37,796 Speaker 1: listening and keep listening, and then finally become something you 685 00:41:37,796 --> 00:41:40,916 Speaker 1: can't live without. And I was wondering, was there someone 686 00:41:40,956 --> 00:41:45,636 Speaker 1: in mind when you several the first My first experience 687 00:41:45,636 --> 00:41:48,196 Speaker 1: of that was a group called Trouble Funk. In the 688 00:41:48,236 --> 00:41:51,636 Speaker 1: early days of hip hop, when I was in high school, 689 00:41:52,036 --> 00:41:54,756 Speaker 1: the only place you could hear hip hop was once 690 00:41:54,836 --> 00:42:00,316 Speaker 1: a week, one hour show on WHBI called Mister Magic's 691 00:42:00,356 --> 00:42:03,356 Speaker 1: Rap Attack, and that was the only and I recorded it. 692 00:42:03,396 --> 00:42:06,076 Speaker 1: I cassette recorded it every week, as did all the 693 00:42:06,076 --> 00:42:09,356 Speaker 1: other hip hop heads in my high school, and you know, 694 00:42:09,436 --> 00:42:12,836 Speaker 1: maybe the six of us, and we would record that 695 00:42:12,916 --> 00:42:14,756 Speaker 1: every week and then that would be all we would 696 00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:16,796 Speaker 1: listen to all week because there were at this point 697 00:42:16,796 --> 00:42:20,396 Speaker 1: in time, there really were no hip hop records available 698 00:42:20,556 --> 00:42:22,876 Speaker 1: to buy. There may have been the sugar Hill Gangs 699 00:42:23,516 --> 00:42:27,316 Speaker 1: Rappers Delight, but that was the only one. Yet on 700 00:42:27,356 --> 00:42:29,516 Speaker 1: this radio show he played all these songs. It's like, 701 00:42:29,556 --> 00:42:30,996 Speaker 1: I don't even know where they came from, and they 702 00:42:30,996 --> 00:42:34,516 Speaker 1: were all like twelve inch you know, DJ Living where 703 00:42:34,516 --> 00:42:37,476 Speaker 1: I lived, it didn't exist. So I'd listen to that 704 00:42:37,556 --> 00:42:40,396 Speaker 1: every week and hear whatever was going on in rap music. 705 00:42:40,396 --> 00:42:44,476 Speaker 1: And again it was a very tight time because all 706 00:42:44,516 --> 00:42:46,956 Speaker 1: there was was an hour and with you know, plus 707 00:42:46,956 --> 00:42:50,596 Speaker 1: it had commercials in it for places like Brad's Record 708 00:42:50,676 --> 00:42:52,476 Speaker 1: den in the Bronx, which is I guess where you 709 00:42:52,476 --> 00:42:54,716 Speaker 1: could have bought some of those other songs that I 710 00:42:55,236 --> 00:42:59,636 Speaker 1: had never gone at that time I've gone since. And 711 00:43:00,436 --> 00:43:03,516 Speaker 1: one week, in the middle of these all rap songs, 712 00:43:04,156 --> 00:43:06,756 Speaker 1: he played a trouble funk song, which is not rap music. 713 00:43:06,836 --> 00:43:10,116 Speaker 1: It's go go music, and it's long, and the song 714 00:43:10,196 --> 00:43:14,476 Speaker 1: was maybe seven or nine minutes long, So a seven 715 00:43:14,596 --> 00:43:18,796 Speaker 1: or nine non rap song took up seven to nine 716 00:43:18,836 --> 00:43:24,276 Speaker 1: minutes of my sixty minutes. Plus commercials removed my little 717 00:43:24,276 --> 00:43:26,796 Speaker 1: bit of rap music for the week, and I was 718 00:43:26,956 --> 00:43:30,876 Speaker 1: so angry, and I would every time I would listen 719 00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:32,636 Speaker 1: to the cassette, I would forward through the trouble Funk 720 00:43:32,676 --> 00:43:35,316 Speaker 1: song to get to the rap music. And I did this, 721 00:43:35,356 --> 00:43:37,876 Speaker 1: and then one time I listened to the trouble Funk song. 722 00:43:38,796 --> 00:43:43,396 Speaker 1: And then it took time, but eventually, within a couple 723 00:43:43,436 --> 00:43:45,636 Speaker 1: of weeks, the only thing I was listening to on 724 00:43:45,676 --> 00:43:48,956 Speaker 1: that tape was the Trouble Funk song. Yeah. So that's 725 00:43:49,516 --> 00:43:52,116 Speaker 1: one example, but I'm sure there are many more. When 726 00:43:52,156 --> 00:43:53,836 Speaker 1: the first first I remember the first time I heard 727 00:43:53,916 --> 00:43:58,316 Speaker 1: Nine Inch Nails. I didn't like any of the industrial 728 00:43:58,396 --> 00:44:00,676 Speaker 1: music I had heard up until the point of nine 729 00:44:00,676 --> 00:44:03,796 Speaker 1: Inch Nails, And when I heard Nine inch Nails, my 730 00:44:03,916 --> 00:44:07,316 Speaker 1: initial reaction to it was, this is that kind of 731 00:44:07,396 --> 00:44:10,036 Speaker 1: music I don't like. I don't like production, I don't 732 00:44:10,116 --> 00:44:14,796 Speaker 1: like those sounds. And then eventually took probably a year, 733 00:44:16,596 --> 00:44:19,916 Speaker 1: nine inch Nails became my favorite group. But the things 734 00:44:19,956 --> 00:44:23,076 Speaker 1: that I didn't like about it weren't the things that 735 00:44:23,116 --> 00:44:25,196 Speaker 1: were good about it in the case of nine Inch Nails. 736 00:44:25,556 --> 00:44:31,556 Speaker 1: In nine Nail's case, Trent's songwriting was so far superior 737 00:44:31,676 --> 00:44:35,316 Speaker 1: to anyone else making that kind of music that once 738 00:44:35,356 --> 00:44:38,996 Speaker 1: I could hear his songs, it didn't matter whether or 739 00:44:39,036 --> 00:44:41,876 Speaker 1: not I like the style. Yeah, And then when I 740 00:44:41,916 --> 00:44:45,396 Speaker 1: liked the songs, eventually I grew to even like the 741 00:44:45,476 --> 00:44:49,076 Speaker 1: style because his songs made me like the style. Oh. 742 00:44:49,156 --> 00:44:53,276 Speaker 1: I see. It's this interesting thing about for different kinds 743 00:44:53,276 --> 00:44:57,036 Speaker 1: of experience and creative experiences, there are different thresholds. The 744 00:44:57,116 --> 00:45:00,076 Speaker 1: familiar has a very low threshold. The unfamiliar has a 745 00:45:00,196 --> 00:45:03,796 Speaker 1: much longer threshold. But what's interesting with that story, and 746 00:45:03,796 --> 00:45:06,316 Speaker 1: it's very particular to you, is that you had the 747 00:45:06,396 --> 00:45:10,436 Speaker 1: patience to wait long enough so you could reach the 748 00:45:10,476 --> 00:45:13,876 Speaker 1: threshold of understanding what was what trouble Funk was doing 749 00:45:13,956 --> 00:45:17,516 Speaker 1: or what Trent Resident was doing. That's unusual. So a 750 00:45:17,556 --> 00:45:20,036 Speaker 1: lot of what you're talking about in this book really 751 00:45:20,076 --> 00:45:22,996 Speaker 1: does seem to be things that can be taught and 752 00:45:23,756 --> 00:45:27,236 Speaker 1: understood and shift your This what you're describing now is 753 00:45:27,236 --> 00:45:30,916 Speaker 1: something very not impossible to teach, but very hard to teach. 754 00:45:31,756 --> 00:45:36,076 Speaker 1: To persist with something you didn't like, the trouble Funk, 755 00:45:36,676 --> 00:45:39,676 Speaker 1: and yet somehow you kept coming back. In one way, 756 00:45:39,796 --> 00:45:42,716 Speaker 1: you didn't dismiss it. You disliked it without dismissing it. 757 00:45:42,756 --> 00:45:46,476 Speaker 1: That's I guess what I'm trying to say that people 758 00:45:46,516 --> 00:45:50,716 Speaker 1: when they disliked they dismiss but you didn't. I want 759 00:45:50,756 --> 00:45:54,996 Speaker 1: to understand why didn't you. I may have back then, 760 00:45:55,036 --> 00:45:58,196 Speaker 1: I may have dismissed it, but for whatever reason, because 761 00:45:58,236 --> 00:46:00,276 Speaker 1: it was on a cassette, and because I had to 762 00:46:00,356 --> 00:46:02,316 Speaker 1: keep coming back and forward when it would come on 763 00:46:02,596 --> 00:46:05,156 Speaker 1: and I might be doing something else in my room, 764 00:46:05,236 --> 00:46:07,316 Speaker 1: it was able to get through to me. And this 765 00:46:07,476 --> 00:46:10,436 Speaker 1: again we get to the metaphysical aspect of it. The 766 00:46:10,596 --> 00:46:13,036 Speaker 1: universe wanted me to hear trouble funk. That's why I 767 00:46:13,076 --> 00:46:16,156 Speaker 1: was able to hear it. If it wouldn't have presented 768 00:46:16,196 --> 00:46:20,916 Speaker 1: itself over and over to me, I wouldn't have So yes, 769 00:46:22,076 --> 00:46:27,676 Speaker 1: I allowed it in, but it wasn't all me. I'll 770 00:46:27,716 --> 00:46:31,396 Speaker 1: give you another example. It's not uncommon when I'm out 771 00:46:31,396 --> 00:46:33,836 Speaker 1: and about to have someone recommend something that they think 772 00:46:33,836 --> 00:46:36,116 Speaker 1: I'll like, and when they recommend it to me, I 773 00:46:36,156 --> 00:46:38,396 Speaker 1: listen and it sounds like a terrible something that I 774 00:46:38,436 --> 00:46:40,676 Speaker 1: don't like, the kind of thing I don't like. Whatever 775 00:46:40,676 --> 00:46:43,956 Speaker 1: it is. An example would be it's not a real example, 776 00:46:43,956 --> 00:46:47,196 Speaker 1: I'm hypothetical. Example is, Oh, you love this new horror movie. 777 00:46:47,316 --> 00:46:49,196 Speaker 1: I don't like horror movies. There's no chance I'm going 778 00:46:49,276 --> 00:46:53,276 Speaker 1: to watch a horror movie. That wouldn't work. If three 779 00:46:53,516 --> 00:46:57,676 Speaker 1: different people who don't know each other all suggest to 780 00:46:57,756 --> 00:47:01,436 Speaker 1: me to watch that horror movie, I will watch that 781 00:47:01,516 --> 00:47:04,476 Speaker 1: horror movie, even though I know it's something I don't like. 782 00:47:04,796 --> 00:47:08,236 Speaker 1: And the reason is the universe really wants me to 783 00:47:08,236 --> 00:47:10,796 Speaker 1: be aware of this. People are telling me. Why are 784 00:47:10,796 --> 00:47:14,716 Speaker 1: people telling me this is not for me. So that's 785 00:47:14,716 --> 00:47:17,916 Speaker 1: an example of again paying attention to the signs around you. 786 00:47:18,356 --> 00:47:21,996 Speaker 1: If several of your friends tell you the same thing 787 00:47:22,356 --> 00:47:26,316 Speaker 1: that you initially discounted, it might be worth a look. 788 00:47:26,636 --> 00:47:29,316 Speaker 1: This is funny because this goes into one of my 789 00:47:30,036 --> 00:47:32,636 Speaker 1: similar to one of my little I have a rule. 790 00:47:32,676 --> 00:47:35,276 Speaker 1: I have these implicit rules I carry around in my head, 791 00:47:35,556 --> 00:47:40,476 Speaker 1: and one of my rules is never say somethings that 792 00:47:40,556 --> 00:47:44,796 Speaker 1: you consume or see or whatever is bad. Only say 793 00:47:45,596 --> 00:47:50,436 Speaker 1: I think it's bad right now. Yes? Great? And if, 794 00:47:50,636 --> 00:47:55,796 Speaker 1: by the way, the whole world, social media particularly would 795 00:47:55,796 --> 00:47:59,956 Speaker 1: be so greatly improved by that rule, right I don't 796 00:47:59,996 --> 00:48:04,156 Speaker 1: like what you I don't like what you said right now. Yes, 797 00:48:04,956 --> 00:48:07,796 Speaker 1: it's very different from saying what you said is wrong 798 00:48:08,276 --> 00:48:12,676 Speaker 1: right about polar opposite, And but adopting that with art. 799 00:48:13,036 --> 00:48:16,716 Speaker 1: I wonder about how many I'm talking about some of 800 00:48:16,756 --> 00:48:21,236 Speaker 1: the critical community, how much criticism, how much it would 801 00:48:21,276 --> 00:48:25,156 Speaker 1: change our understanding of art if critics universally followed that rule, 802 00:48:25,516 --> 00:48:28,156 Speaker 1: and it was if they always acknowledged that they may 803 00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:30,476 Speaker 1: be in a situation that you were in with trouble funk, 804 00:48:31,196 --> 00:48:34,956 Speaker 1: that the universe wasn't there yet you weren't there yet. 805 00:48:35,476 --> 00:48:38,556 Speaker 1: And also that story about trouble Funk is that you 806 00:48:38,636 --> 00:48:41,876 Speaker 1: weren't looking for trouble Funk, you were looking for hip hop. 807 00:48:42,316 --> 00:48:45,156 Speaker 1: So like it was an intrusion in the beginning. It 808 00:48:45,236 --> 00:48:49,316 Speaker 1: wasn't a treasure. It was something that didn't belong, and 809 00:48:49,396 --> 00:48:51,316 Speaker 1: it was something that didn't belong and was taking up 810 00:48:51,436 --> 00:48:56,716 Speaker 1: valuable time, valuable cassette techste space. Yes, because it was 811 00:48:56,756 --> 00:48:59,596 Speaker 1: only sixty minutes. Did you have the nineties back then 812 00:48:59,636 --> 00:49:01,956 Speaker 1: or just the sixties? We had sixties and nineties and 813 00:49:01,996 --> 00:49:05,556 Speaker 1: eventually one twenties. I remember that when twenties were huge. 814 00:49:06,036 --> 00:49:11,396 Speaker 1: But that idea of building into critical assessments, some notion 815 00:49:11,476 --> 00:49:16,716 Speaker 1: about probability, that my judgment is conditioned on two things. 816 00:49:17,196 --> 00:49:19,676 Speaker 1: It do seem credit to me, and it is at 817 00:49:19,716 --> 00:49:22,396 Speaker 1: this moment, and both of those things may not be 818 00:49:22,436 --> 00:49:25,676 Speaker 1: true in some future date. I just that is so 819 00:49:25,796 --> 00:49:29,956 Speaker 1: insanely liberating to me, Like, and I don't understand. Can 820 00:49:30,036 --> 00:49:33,596 Speaker 1: we pass this law It says you're only allowed you 821 00:49:33,716 --> 00:49:36,276 Speaker 1: must always use I think and right now in any 822 00:49:36,316 --> 00:49:41,156 Speaker 1: creative judgment. Yeah. It's also related to another thing mentioned 823 00:49:41,156 --> 00:49:43,756 Speaker 1: in the book, the idea of I can't do that. Yes, 824 00:49:44,476 --> 00:49:46,996 Speaker 1: We never say I can't do that. You can say 825 00:49:47,116 --> 00:49:50,476 Speaker 1: I haven't done that yet. Yes, yes, that is the 826 00:49:50,516 --> 00:49:53,676 Speaker 1: same that functions the same way. The reason I think 827 00:49:53,676 --> 00:49:55,916 Speaker 1: a book like this is so important is this is 828 00:49:56,036 --> 00:49:57,916 Speaker 1: a little bit of a tangent. But I went to 829 00:49:58,436 --> 00:50:00,596 Speaker 1: give a talk at a university two weeks ago, and 830 00:50:00,676 --> 00:50:02,796 Speaker 1: I was to the psychology department, and I was talking 831 00:50:02,836 --> 00:50:06,236 Speaker 1: to these psychologists and they were talking about mental health, 832 00:50:06,836 --> 00:50:09,396 Speaker 1: and they were talking about a lot of really lovely 833 00:50:09,436 --> 00:50:12,756 Speaker 1: research right now about how the language that you use 834 00:50:12,876 --> 00:50:17,156 Speaker 1: to describe your feelings and emotions and traumas and things 835 00:50:17,676 --> 00:50:21,156 Speaker 1: is enormously important. You know, to describe something this way 836 00:50:21,316 --> 00:50:24,076 Speaker 1: or that way is not a difference in style. It 837 00:50:24,156 --> 00:50:27,716 Speaker 1: is actually a difference in the way that you are processing, understanding, 838 00:50:27,796 --> 00:50:30,956 Speaker 1: recovering all those kinds of things. And one of the 839 00:50:30,996 --> 00:50:34,116 Speaker 1: things this book did to me was, I think this 840 00:50:34,276 --> 00:50:37,516 Speaker 1: one way of understanding your book is it is in 841 00:50:37,556 --> 00:50:41,556 Speaker 1: that spirit the categories that we use and the language 842 00:50:41,556 --> 00:50:46,196 Speaker 1: that we bring to our understanding of creativity really really matters. 843 00:50:46,676 --> 00:50:48,836 Speaker 1: Like in that section I love this that I love 844 00:50:48,836 --> 00:50:50,596 Speaker 1: so much about when you're talking about all the ways 845 00:50:50,636 --> 00:50:54,556 Speaker 1: you can jog someone out of being stuck when you're stuck. 846 00:50:54,596 --> 00:50:57,156 Speaker 1: You don't think you don't think you can be jogged 847 00:50:57,196 --> 00:51:00,076 Speaker 1: out by some change in your setting or but in 848 00:51:00,156 --> 00:51:04,516 Speaker 1: truth you can. You remain acutely sensitive to the influences 849 00:51:04,516 --> 00:51:07,996 Speaker 1: of your environment. And it's so hard for us to 850 00:51:08,076 --> 00:51:12,036 Speaker 1: understand that the influence and impact of those kinds of 851 00:51:12,756 --> 00:51:17,196 Speaker 1: framing devices and settings in language are framing devices, right, 852 00:51:18,036 --> 00:51:24,956 Speaker 1: that is often what causes us to suffer unnecessarily. Absolutely. 853 00:51:24,996 --> 00:51:29,196 Speaker 1: There's a teacher named Marshall Rosenberg who wrote a book 854 00:51:29,196 --> 00:51:32,796 Speaker 1: which is not a great book, called Non Violent Communication, 855 00:51:33,476 --> 00:51:35,716 Speaker 1: and he's a great teacher, but he's not a great writer, 856 00:51:35,836 --> 00:51:39,716 Speaker 1: and he passed recently unfortunately. But I would suggest people 857 00:51:40,276 --> 00:51:43,516 Speaker 1: if they're interested in Marshall Rosenberg, there is an audio 858 00:51:43,996 --> 00:51:48,836 Speaker 1: called speaking Piece that is better than the book, and 859 00:51:48,876 --> 00:51:53,996 Speaker 1: then watch videos of him on YouTube, just because the book. 860 00:51:54,196 --> 00:51:57,756 Speaker 1: I found the book hard to understand, but it's basically 861 00:51:57,796 --> 00:52:01,236 Speaker 1: all about this. The language of our culture is violent, 862 00:52:01,876 --> 00:52:04,796 Speaker 1: and it's not just violent towards each other, it's violent 863 00:52:04,836 --> 00:52:09,276 Speaker 1: towards ourselves. Every time we say I should have done that, 864 00:52:09,596 --> 00:52:12,756 Speaker 1: When you say I should, it's called a make wrong. 865 00:52:13,196 --> 00:52:16,196 Speaker 1: So by saying I should have done it means I 866 00:52:16,316 --> 00:52:18,796 Speaker 1: was wrong. This is the right way to do it 867 00:52:18,996 --> 00:52:20,956 Speaker 1: when at the time you were doing the best you could. 868 00:52:21,116 --> 00:52:24,196 Speaker 1: So so when when at the time you're doing the 869 00:52:24,236 --> 00:52:28,716 Speaker 1: best you can, to make yourself wrong isn't helpful. Yeah, 870 00:52:28,756 --> 00:52:32,996 Speaker 1: And there's a whole list of trigger words and ways 871 00:52:33,156 --> 00:52:39,636 Speaker 1: of sharing a vocabulary of feeling that helps us better communicate. 872 00:52:39,756 --> 00:52:42,956 Speaker 1: And when we communicate better, we tend to get along better. 873 00:52:43,316 --> 00:52:48,036 Speaker 1: It's beautiful, beautiful teaching. Yeah. A couple other smaller things. 874 00:52:48,356 --> 00:52:50,356 Speaker 1: There's a couple of moments in this book where I 875 00:52:50,476 --> 00:52:54,356 Speaker 1: scribbled in the in the margins who is Rick talking about? 876 00:52:54,636 --> 00:52:57,516 Speaker 1: But there was one that I wanted you to if you, 877 00:52:57,676 --> 00:53:00,356 Speaker 1: if you, if you don't mind. You talked about how 878 00:53:00,876 --> 00:53:03,116 Speaker 1: you were working with an artist on a song which 879 00:53:03,156 --> 00:53:06,076 Speaker 1: was a love song, and you were trying to solve 880 00:53:06,076 --> 00:53:08,996 Speaker 1: the problem, and you finally solve the problem by telling 881 00:53:09,156 --> 00:53:12,596 Speaker 1: the artist, don't think of a romantic partner, think of 882 00:53:12,636 --> 00:53:15,436 Speaker 1: it as a devotional to God. Who is the song 883 00:53:15,476 --> 00:53:17,116 Speaker 1: and who was the artist? Can you tell me? That 884 00:53:17,156 --> 00:53:20,316 Speaker 1: was Johnny Cash And the song was the first time 885 00:53:20,356 --> 00:53:24,636 Speaker 1: ever I saw your face. Oh my goodness, Oh that's 886 00:53:24,636 --> 00:53:29,916 Speaker 1: so interesting. I know that version so well. That's totally 887 00:53:29,916 --> 00:53:33,876 Speaker 1: blowing my mind because that's what it listens, like, Yeah, 888 00:53:33,916 --> 00:53:36,276 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's genius. Rick, that is genius. And 889 00:53:36,636 --> 00:53:39,836 Speaker 1: it was also Oh and I interviewed Roger mcgwimney other 890 00:53:39,916 --> 00:53:44,556 Speaker 1: day and he talked about the first Bird single was 891 00:53:44,796 --> 00:53:49,116 Speaker 1: mister Camberine Man and out of the Blue. He said, Yeah, 892 00:53:49,116 --> 00:53:51,196 Speaker 1: when I sang it in the studio, no one knows this, 893 00:53:51,876 --> 00:53:55,916 Speaker 1: but I sang it as a devotional to God. I said, 894 00:53:55,916 --> 00:53:57,476 Speaker 1: but the lyrics aren't about that. I was like, yeah, 895 00:53:57,516 --> 00:54:00,676 Speaker 1: I know, but that's how I was able to sing 896 00:54:00,716 --> 00:54:04,276 Speaker 1: it and feel it, and it blew my mind. Oh, 897 00:54:04,316 --> 00:54:07,236 Speaker 1: that's really interesting. This is why I miss liner notes 898 00:54:07,276 --> 00:54:09,876 Speaker 1: so much. I feel like this is the function of 899 00:54:10,356 --> 00:54:13,836 Speaker 1: but rat those two facts about first time I saw 900 00:54:13,876 --> 00:54:17,756 Speaker 1: your face and mister Tamory Man, those both changed the 901 00:54:18,076 --> 00:54:22,236 Speaker 1: radically change the way you hear those songs. Yes, the 902 00:54:22,276 --> 00:54:26,636 Speaker 1: Cash song makes way more sense. I've always not understood 903 00:54:26,716 --> 00:54:29,836 Speaker 1: why I found that song so powerful. Yes, it really 904 00:54:30,476 --> 00:54:32,756 Speaker 1: in the context of all those ones, it's one of 905 00:54:32,796 --> 00:54:36,156 Speaker 1: the ones that it pops in this kind of strange 906 00:54:36,196 --> 00:54:39,076 Speaker 1: way and it's haunting in the way you don't And 907 00:54:39,116 --> 00:54:41,636 Speaker 1: now I understand why he's singing it. With a completely 908 00:54:41,676 --> 00:54:45,356 Speaker 1: different intention than I imagined. Yeah, it's and if you 909 00:54:45,396 --> 00:54:48,236 Speaker 1: listen to the original song, it's unbelievable. Or when I 910 00:54:48,276 --> 00:54:51,676 Speaker 1: say the original, the popular version, because the popular version 911 00:54:51,796 --> 00:54:54,196 Speaker 1: is not the original either. You know, it was written 912 00:54:54,436 --> 00:54:58,876 Speaker 1: by Ewan McCall and it's an Irish folk song. And 913 00:54:58,956 --> 00:55:01,076 Speaker 1: if you've ever heard the Irish folk song version of it, 914 00:55:01,076 --> 00:55:04,676 Speaker 1: it's almost like a yodel, you know, it's very unlike. Yeah, 915 00:55:05,676 --> 00:55:08,556 Speaker 1: all the all the versions that we're familiar with. I 916 00:55:08,596 --> 00:55:10,236 Speaker 1: realized when I read that as well, that I have 917 00:55:10,276 --> 00:55:13,036 Speaker 1: a version of that, which is years and years ago. 918 00:55:13,116 --> 00:55:15,996 Speaker 1: I sat down on an airplane next to a guy 919 00:55:15,996 --> 00:55:17,836 Speaker 1: who happened to be reading one of my books, and 920 00:55:17,876 --> 00:55:21,076 Speaker 1: I had this very very long conversation with him, and 921 00:55:21,636 --> 00:55:24,036 Speaker 1: he was I still remember what he did. He opened. 922 00:55:25,116 --> 00:55:27,796 Speaker 1: His job was to go around the country opening Trader Joe's. 923 00:55:28,516 --> 00:55:30,116 Speaker 1: He was coming from New York. They were opening a 924 00:55:30,156 --> 00:55:32,236 Speaker 1: store like in Brooklyn or something, and he'd just been 925 00:55:32,236 --> 00:55:36,556 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn for a month, lived in Atlanta, had two kids. 926 00:55:37,636 --> 00:55:41,156 Speaker 1: It was by thirty eight years old, business school degree, 927 00:55:41,196 --> 00:55:44,276 Speaker 1: I think maybe not. Anyway, I had a lovely chat 928 00:55:44,316 --> 00:55:47,116 Speaker 1: with him and I realized, oh, that's my reader, and 929 00:55:47,196 --> 00:55:50,516 Speaker 1: every time I'm stuck, I think about him. Beautiful. It's 930 00:55:50,556 --> 00:55:53,196 Speaker 1: for him. He was beautiful, and he said because he 931 00:55:53,236 --> 00:55:55,436 Speaker 1: only read. He told me, he said, I'm very very busy. 932 00:55:55,516 --> 00:55:58,316 Speaker 1: I teach Sunday school, I'm a coach in my kids 933 00:55:58,396 --> 00:56:00,356 Speaker 1: little league. Going to have this job which is very demanding. 934 00:56:00,396 --> 00:56:03,316 Speaker 1: I have time to read three books a year. And 935 00:56:03,396 --> 00:56:07,396 Speaker 1: I realized, oh, and he's chosen one of mine. I'm 936 00:56:07,436 --> 00:56:11,316 Speaker 1: one of his three, which is like phenomenally flattering thing. 937 00:56:11,916 --> 00:56:14,476 Speaker 1: And I realize, Oh, if I can keep being one 938 00:56:14,516 --> 00:56:17,876 Speaker 1: of his three books every year, then I I will succeed. 939 00:56:18,676 --> 00:56:21,356 Speaker 1: Beautiful and the beautiful about him all the time, He 940 00:56:21,436 --> 00:56:24,436 Speaker 1: was like, A yeah, really really, but it is it's 941 00:56:24,476 --> 00:56:29,676 Speaker 1: insanely liberating to know that's what it's for, right, Yes, 942 00:56:30,516 --> 00:56:36,276 Speaker 1: the fact that you randomly got a sign that seat 943 00:56:36,756 --> 00:56:41,276 Speaker 1: he happened to be reading your book on that particular flight. Yeah, 944 00:56:41,316 --> 00:56:44,756 Speaker 1: it could be it's all a coincidence. Yet it's what 945 00:56:44,796 --> 00:56:46,916 Speaker 1: you needed to hear to be able to keep doing 946 00:56:46,916 --> 00:56:49,356 Speaker 1: what you've been doing for all these years. Since then 947 00:56:50,196 --> 00:56:54,516 Speaker 1: maybe it's accidental, who knows. That's that's that's the points, 948 00:56:54,516 --> 00:56:59,716 Speaker 1: Like these things happen all the time. Yeah, maybe they're 949 00:56:59,716 --> 00:57:02,076 Speaker 1: all accidents. It's fine, It doesn't matter if they are 950 00:57:02,196 --> 00:57:05,996 Speaker 1: or not. But if they happen, and if you can 951 00:57:06,156 --> 00:57:11,236 Speaker 1: use that information like you do, we all win. Yeah, 952 00:57:11,316 --> 00:57:15,756 Speaker 1: all to the better or one last thing, the last 953 00:57:15,796 --> 00:57:18,996 Speaker 1: thing I underlined in your book, page three sixty five, 954 00:57:20,156 --> 00:57:23,596 Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, I didn't expect this. Rich 955 00:57:23,916 --> 00:57:26,876 Speaker 1: was hold on, let's let me just go there. And also, 956 00:57:26,956 --> 00:57:30,116 Speaker 1: I don't know why in retrospect I found it so surprising, 957 00:57:30,716 --> 00:57:33,356 Speaker 1: but you say, when I work with artists, we make 958 00:57:33,356 --> 00:57:36,676 Speaker 1: an agreement, we continue the process until reaching the point 959 00:57:36,756 --> 00:57:41,436 Speaker 1: where we are all happy with the work. All in 960 00:57:42,236 --> 00:57:46,276 Speaker 1: is talisized in that. And I was like, I realized, 961 00:57:46,396 --> 00:57:48,916 Speaker 1: and maybe this is because how badly I needed your book. 962 00:57:49,556 --> 00:57:52,716 Speaker 1: It never occurred to me that there would be art 963 00:57:52,756 --> 00:57:54,796 Speaker 1: on the level that you have been a part of 964 00:57:54,836 --> 00:57:59,796 Speaker 1: creating without dissent. I just I was just shocked. I 965 00:57:59,836 --> 00:58:03,636 Speaker 1: was like, wait, You've done all this for so many years, 966 00:58:03,636 --> 00:58:08,516 Speaker 1: with so many different people under an explicit promise of unanimity. 967 00:58:09,556 --> 00:58:13,956 Speaker 1: Blew my mind. They'll be descent along the way, But 968 00:58:14,116 --> 00:58:16,636 Speaker 1: that just means we haven't gone far enough. It just 969 00:58:16,756 --> 00:58:20,076 Speaker 1: means if you like it, and I don't it's not 970 00:58:20,116 --> 00:58:22,276 Speaker 1: good enough. And if I like it and you don't, 971 00:58:22,476 --> 00:58:25,836 Speaker 1: it's not good enough. And if we can get to 972 00:58:25,876 --> 00:58:28,636 Speaker 1: the point where we both love it, it's probably better 973 00:58:28,796 --> 00:58:30,756 Speaker 1: than the one that one of us loved and the 974 00:58:30,796 --> 00:58:33,996 Speaker 1: other didn't. And if there are five people in a band, 975 00:58:34,636 --> 00:58:37,236 Speaker 1: and if three of them like it and two of 976 00:58:37,236 --> 00:58:39,836 Speaker 1: them don't, and you get to the point where all 977 00:58:39,876 --> 00:58:43,556 Speaker 1: five of them like it, chances are it's better. And 978 00:58:43,636 --> 00:58:47,476 Speaker 1: that's just that you're done. Yes, yeah, no, it was 979 00:58:47,516 --> 00:58:50,796 Speaker 1: just like such a kind of I just thought of that. 980 00:58:50,796 --> 00:58:53,476 Speaker 1: That idea that what you're building in the end is 981 00:58:53,516 --> 00:58:56,516 Speaker 1: a kind of harmony among all the all of the voices, 982 00:58:56,636 --> 00:59:00,436 Speaker 1: is a beautiful way to end a very very beautiful book. 983 00:59:01,076 --> 00:59:03,756 Speaker 1: There's a part in the book where we talk about cooperation, 984 00:59:03,836 --> 00:59:08,116 Speaker 1: which is exactly this working with other people. Historically, I'll 985 00:59:08,156 --> 00:59:12,876 Speaker 1: say most times that people work together, there's a rivalry 986 00:59:12,916 --> 00:59:18,036 Speaker 1: of ideas. Each person is arguing to win the debate 987 00:59:18,156 --> 00:59:21,956 Speaker 1: to have their idea be the one that's chosen. And 988 00:59:22,476 --> 00:59:26,156 Speaker 1: I'm saying that's not productive, and the best way to 989 00:59:26,236 --> 00:59:29,516 Speaker 1: do it is for everyone to demonstrate their ideas. It's 990 00:59:29,556 --> 00:59:32,236 Speaker 1: even better if they're demonstrated in a blind way where 991 00:59:32,276 --> 00:59:36,196 Speaker 1: we don't even know whose ideas what. We just hear 992 00:59:36,236 --> 00:59:42,516 Speaker 1: the ideas and then everybody picks and usually it's pretty obvious, 993 00:59:42,676 --> 00:59:45,916 Speaker 1: and it really does happen naturally. And it's only through 994 00:59:46,476 --> 00:59:50,396 Speaker 1: the ego of wanting it to be my way that 995 00:59:50,436 --> 00:59:55,436 Speaker 1: they're these conflicts. But if everyone is working together for 996 00:59:55,476 --> 00:59:58,116 Speaker 1: it to be the best that it can be, and 997 00:59:58,156 --> 01:00:00,356 Speaker 1: if we respect each other enough to know if I 998 01:00:00,396 --> 01:00:01,996 Speaker 1: think it's the best it can be and you think 999 01:00:01,996 --> 01:00:05,276 Speaker 1: it can be better, I'll go on that ride and 1000 01:00:05,476 --> 01:00:10,556 Speaker 1: same the other way. Ultimately we get to beautiful place. Rick. 1001 01:00:10,636 --> 01:00:13,596 Speaker 1: That is lovely, And thank you for writing such a 1002 01:00:14,276 --> 01:00:17,236 Speaker 1: beautiful book. May many, many many people enjoy it as 1003 01:00:17,316 --> 01:00:19,516 Speaker 1: much as I have. Thank you so much. I really 1004 01:00:19,556 --> 01:00:25,356 Speaker 1: appreciate your eating it. It's fantastic. It makes me happy. 1005 01:00:25,716 --> 01:00:27,756 Speaker 1: I want to thank Rick on the Record for taking 1006 01:00:27,756 --> 01:00:31,636 Speaker 1: the time to put his philosophies around creativity in a book. 1007 01:00:32,116 --> 01:00:34,876 Speaker 1: The Creative Act, A Way of Being is out now. 1008 01:00:35,276 --> 01:00:37,196 Speaker 1: Be sure to check it out. You can subscribe to 1009 01:00:37,196 --> 01:00:40,516 Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. 1010 01:00:40,876 --> 01:00:43,396 Speaker 1: We can find all of our new episodes. You can 1011 01:00:43,436 --> 01:00:46,636 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is 1012 01:00:46,676 --> 01:00:51,596 Speaker 1: produced with Helpful, Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ben Holiday, Eric Sandler, 1013 01:00:51,956 --> 01:00:56,556 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sanchez. Our editor Sophie Crane. Our executive producer is 1014 01:00:56,596 --> 01:01:00,876 Speaker 1: Mio LaBelle Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 1015 01:01:01,236 --> 01:01:03,676 Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 1016 01:01:03,716 --> 01:01:08,156 Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 1017 01:01:08,276 --> 01:01:11,836 Speaker 1: that offers bonus content and uninterrupted ad free listening for 1018 01:01:11,956 --> 01:01:14,876 Speaker 1: four ninety nine a month. Look for push Complus on 1019 01:01:14,996 --> 01:01:18,796 Speaker 1: Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like our show, please 1020 01:01:18,836 --> 01:01:21,516 Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast 1021 01:01:21,516 --> 01:01:25,516 Speaker 1: at our theme musics by Kenny beats On Justin Richmond