Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, we are coming to a town ostensibly near you,
Speaker 1: so putatively see us.
Speaker 2: That's right, May twenty ninth. We'll be in Boston, really Medford, Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: The next night we're gonna go down to Washington, DC,
Speaker 2: and then scooch back up to New York City at
Speaker 2: Town Hall on May thirty first.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you're one of those people who likes
Speaker 1: to plan way far in advance, then you can go
Speaker 1: ahead and get tickets for our shows in August. We're
Speaker 1: gonna start out where Chuck.
Speaker 2: We're gonna be in Chicago August seventh, Minneapolis August eighth,
Speaker 2: then Indianapolis for the very first time on August ninth,
Speaker 2: and then we're gonna wrap it up in Durham, North Carolina,
Speaker 2: and right here in Atlanta on September fifth and September seventh.
Speaker 1: Yep. So you can get all the info you need
Speaker 1: and all the ticket links you need by going to
Speaker 1: stuff youshould Know dot com and hitting that tour button,
Speaker 1: or you can also go to linktree slash SYSK Live.
Speaker 1: We'll see you guys this year.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast I'm Josh, and there's
Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry's here too. It's the trio, the Tom
Speaker 1: and Jerry and Jerry of podcasting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I like that.
Speaker 1: Well, no, how about Tom and Jerry and Jerry's little
Speaker 1: like nephew who's always getting in trouble but he's super cute.
Speaker 2: Is that a character? Yeah? I'm not sure if I
Speaker 2: remember that.
Speaker 1: He was a little great kid in diapers, very very cute.
Speaker 1: Even Tom wanted to take care of him.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it feels like so many shows and cartoons felt
Speaker 2: the need to bring on like a little cute edition
Speaker 2: every now and then. Whether it was cousin Oliver, I
Speaker 2: was gonna say him on The Brady Bunch or god Zuki?
Speaker 2: Who Godzilla and god Zuki? Mm hmm, Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: a little cute baby Godzilla.
Speaker 1: Oh that's great, we'll good. Way to go, Godzilla. You
Speaker 1: really slip went past Goalie or whoever?
Speaker 2: This one? Who's this one? What's his name?
Speaker 1: I don't know, Jerry. That's why I said Tom and
Speaker 1: Jerry and Jerry, I gotcha. There's also don't forget Captain
Speaker 1: Caveman and Son. Yeah, pretty straightforward stuff. Uh, but that's
Speaker 1: not at all what we're talking about, Chuck, Let's just
Speaker 1: get serious here. Let's get down to brass tacks. Let's
Speaker 1: get down to the facts. In other words, as our
Speaker 1: Cockney friends say, we're talking about misophonia. And there was
Speaker 1: an O in there somewhere, but my voice hitched mesophonia.
Speaker 1: And it's possible I just accidentally set some people off
Speaker 1: because when I said it that second time, I articulated
Speaker 1: it clearly the oh. And vocal articulation or speech articulation
Speaker 1: where you're really pronouncing a phoneme can can trigger mesophonia,
Speaker 1: which we should say means hatred of sound and is
Speaker 1: essentially a outrage just nervous reaction to sounds that make
Speaker 1: the average that the other the average person doesn't even notice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll get into like all of the stuff
Speaker 2: here with me sophonia, But it's it seems to be
Speaker 2: more like, uh, generally, more like sounds people make, like
Speaker 2: you often hear about like chewing food or lip smacking
Speaker 2: or chewing gum, just sort of like body sounds that
Speaker 2: people make yawning sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly oro facial like this yeah, or nose yeah.
Speaker 2: So that's typically it. I mean, you know, there's a
Speaker 2: range of stuff, but I thought maybe we could chat
Speaker 2: very briefly just about sounds that you hate, Like if
Speaker 2: you have any triggering sounds at all, it.
Speaker 1: Triggers probably a strong word, because I don't like fly
Speaker 1: into rage. I don't necessarily feel disgusted. Like the closest
Speaker 1: would be someone using a leaf blower. I just think
Speaker 1: those are the worst people on the planet.
Speaker 2: I forgot about that. You're you're long running feud with
Speaker 2: the I can't stand them chucked the blowers. I know
Speaker 2: I'm with you, So I have a couple of things,
Speaker 2: but uh, similarly to you. Similarly uh oh, here we go.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: It's like a noise thing, like an ambulance crossing close by,
Speaker 2: Like I plugged my ears like a five year old.
Speaker 2: I can't take it.
Speaker 1: How about his new ambulance sirens are like who? I've
Speaker 1: heard those.
Speaker 2: I've heard those save bonkers. But if I'm on a
Speaker 2: on a on a street and there's like a rush
Speaker 2: of emergency services, I have to plug my ears. When
Speaker 2: I'm using an airplane toilet, I have to plug my
Speaker 2: ears for that that sucubus flush sound. Cannot hear it.
Speaker 2: But those, I think are just like loud noises, which
Speaker 2: is we'll see, isn't the same as mesa phone. The
Speaker 2: closest I can come with mesophony as far as like
Speaker 2: an emotional thing that really feels like it's connected to
Speaker 2: my brain is hearing two kinds of music at the
Speaker 2: same time. And it's when Ruby was growing up. It's
Speaker 2: a big thing when like we'd be playing music and
Speaker 2: she would come into the room with some dumb kid
Speaker 2: toy that plays music, and it just it makes me
Speaker 2: crazy and angry very fast. And it's clear it's not
Speaker 2: just like, oh that annoys me. It's like a real thing.
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm trying to listen to pavement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it triggers me in such a way that
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I think I understand that neuro connective annoyance,
Speaker 2: which is not the same as just like I don't
Speaker 2: like that sound.
Speaker 1: So you has mesophonia. She's never been clinically diagnosed, but
Speaker 1: she very much has it. Yeah, Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: It's like the orofacial stuff like chewing, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: You're just now telling me that she's I know.
Speaker 1: It's just fun to sit back and observe when you
Speaker 1: guys are all in the same room together. Right, So
Speaker 1: she has like I would say, maybe middling middling mesophonia.
Speaker 2: Okay, she can control it, but I think.
Speaker 1: If there's like she's having a bad enough day, yeah,
Speaker 1: or she's stressed or something like that and it's triggered,
Speaker 1: she'd be more likely to be like can you chew
Speaker 1: any louder or something like that. Right, But normally she
Speaker 1: can like just kind of just chill and like deal
Speaker 1: with it. But now that I've done the research, I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: I like I feel for her more than I ever
Speaker 1: had before as far as that stuff is concerned. And
Speaker 1: it's not like this is news to me. Like I
Speaker 1: knew she had mesophonia. I understand it, but just the
Speaker 1: degree that it affects people. She just plays it really cool.
Speaker 1: And knowing now that what's going on inside of her
Speaker 1: while she's playing it cool makes me never want to
Speaker 1: eat around her again, just out of out of support.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a that's whet be playing it cool
Speaker 2: is the UMI way, So that doesn't surprise me. And see,
Speaker 2: you know you mentioned her if she's already anxious or
Speaker 2: something about something else, like as we'll see, there are
Speaker 2: comorbidities that can definitely make it worse. And I imagine
Speaker 2: just being in an anxious state, like with anything else,
Speaker 2: something annoying will could you know, push you over the edge?
Speaker 1: Exactly, You're already right there. And yes, it's a it's
Speaker 1: an emotional reaction, a profound emotional reaction. And you said
Speaker 1: something else too that I think is worth worth really
Speaker 1: kind of digging into for a second, Like you don't
Speaker 1: like ambulances. Nobody likes the sound of ambulance. That ambulance
Speaker 1: siren is designed to annoy you, to basically get you
Speaker 1: out of the way, to catch your attention, right, but
Speaker 1: not in a good way. They don't want you standing
Speaker 1: around like jamming out to the siren something. Right, So
Speaker 1: that makes sense someone chewing. The sound of someone chewing
Speaker 1: doesn't send the average person into a state of like
Speaker 1: anger or in severe cases like rage. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: where you're yelling at the other person because they're chewing
Speaker 1: like a normal person. That's really where mesophonia begins, where
Speaker 1: just a sound that wouldn't really upset anybody else really
Speaker 1: affects you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And we heard from the reason. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're getting to it kind of late. But when we
Speaker 2: did our ASMR episode, we heard from a lot of
Speaker 2: people with mesophonia that were like, hey, a lot of
Speaker 2: this episode triggered me, and like, it's a real thing,
Speaker 2: and I think we might have even poked fun at
Speaker 2: it a little bit. And we're like even doings like
Speaker 2: smacking sounds and things because we were oblivious at the
Speaker 2: time to what a real thing it is. So we're
Speaker 2: doing this to make up for that in a way.
Speaker 2: And we're not gonna give examples of sounds because we
Speaker 2: do know that it's a serious thing. It's not something
Speaker 2: to be made fun of. Our laughed at is to
Speaker 2: be taken now rely. And that is part of the
Speaker 2: history of mesophonia, and continuing history is clinicians basically being like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what this is, but you learned to
Speaker 2: deal with it. If you don't like the way your
Speaker 2: husband choose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about history. One of the reasons why
Speaker 1: people who finally go in to get diagnosed and treated
Speaker 1: for mesophonia, one of the reasons they run into that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Their doctor might tell them just where
Speaker 1: earplugs or get a hold of yourself or something like that, yeah,
Speaker 1: or their psychologists might be like, you clearly have other issues.
Speaker 1: This is just some symptom of it. Mesa phonia is
Speaker 1: like a very new thing. It has no clinical definition anywhere.
Speaker 1: Apparently there was a committee that got together as recently
Speaker 1: as like, I think two thousand, fourteen, fifteen sixteen, very recently,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: No, twenty twenty two was when the expert committee got okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: So during COVID that's how recent this was. Time now exactly,
Speaker 1: They're like, I guess we'll get around to it. But
Speaker 1: they finally said, Okay, this is a thing. This is
Speaker 1: what this thing is, it consists of, and this is
Speaker 1: how we think maybe you could conceivably treat it. It's
Speaker 1: that new. It was only back in two thousand and
Speaker 1: one that it was first described. Two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: the twenty first century, it's like a brand new disorder.
Speaker 2: Yeah. In two thousand and one, that was when a
Speaker 2: couple that is going to figure pretty heavily in this one,
Speaker 2: because they were sort of the ogs, Powell and Margaret Jastreboff.
Speaker 2: They were from Poland, the married couple. They were professors
Speaker 2: of otto, laryn larryonology, laryngology. Yeah, jeez, I had it right.
Speaker 2: It sounds funny, that's a E and T study. Basically,
Speaker 2: they were here at Emory, I guess in Atlanta, and
Speaker 2: Powell was studying tenadus TRT, specifically tendus retraining therapy, and
Speaker 2: Margaret she was studying cancer research. But I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm also involved in this tenantus thing, and we're both
Speaker 2: going all in. It's two thousand and one on what
Speaker 2: did they call the grouping over sensitive hearing well Decreased
Speaker 2: sound tolerance conditions DST conditions, which at the time included hyperacusis,
Speaker 2: phonophobia with a B and then misophonia with an N.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot of info.
Speaker 2: It is a lot of info.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I can just hear you saying
Speaker 1: like I had a bout of tenidus while I was
Speaker 1: getting it to two. I'm going with tonitis, all right.
Speaker 1: I'm also going with Pavel because differ from poland, so
Speaker 1: I think his name's Pavel.
Speaker 2: It was a w A I think, so, yeah, you're
Speaker 2: probably right.
Speaker 1: I think they actually spell vodka with the W over there.
Speaker 1: It's just off to be alive, right, So at first
Speaker 1: they were saying like, Okay, there's all these things that
Speaker 1: are kind of lumped together. Like you said, the DSTs
Speaker 1: to decrease sound tolerance, and they can kind of present
Speaker 1: in different ways. Hyperacusis is definitely its own thing. They
Speaker 1: think that maybe something happened to your ear, you damaged it.
Speaker 1: There's a facial muscle that controls it, that controls like
Speaker 1: how much your ear intensifies or amplifies a sound, and
Speaker 1: if that muscle is damaged, this sound is going to
Speaker 1: just come raging through your brain. So if you hear
Speaker 1: somebody typing on a keyboard, you might have to crawl
Speaker 1: under your desk and want to die.
Speaker 2: It seems like really loud, though not annoying exactly. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's annoying, but it's it's the decibel level
Speaker 2: is the issue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to have more of a produce, more
Speaker 1: of a physical reaction than just an emotional reaction. And
Speaker 1: if it is an emotional reaction, that seems to be
Speaker 1: more like suffering than rage. Yeah, phone of phobia. They
Speaker 1: were like, okay, that's a separate thing too for now.
Speaker 1: And that is a fear of loud sounds. And the
Speaker 1: reason that it's a phobia is because you're afraid of
Speaker 1: loud sounds. That can't actually hurt you, like the sound
Speaker 1: of traffic or the sound of emergency services.
Speaker 2: Yeah, an ambulance or something like toilet and a plane.
Speaker 1: So if you felt fear while you were plugging your
Speaker 1: ears and maybe even ran away, you would probably have phonophobia.
Speaker 2: No, it doesn't reach those levels. It's just it bothers me.
Speaker 2: And I'm not afraid to look like a five year
Speaker 2: old in public.
Speaker 1: Okay, Man, I want to see that so bad. I'm surprised.
Speaker 2: I surely I've done that in front of you.
Speaker 1: Maybe not, I've not seen it. I would definitely remember.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know one thing, we've never been in
Speaker 2: an airplane bathroom together.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm going to That's true. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm going to do is next time we're
Speaker 1: on tour and we're hanging out backstage, I'm going to
Speaker 1: start a fire right and sit around and wait for
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 2: That's a great idea, Okay.
Speaker 1: And then there's mesophonia too, which is the topic of
Speaker 1: this episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think they went on, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of studying that stuff for about a dozen years, and
Speaker 2: then in twenty fourteen is when they said, and this
Speaker 2: is the couple the Jasper boffs, Yeah, yst Or, it's
Speaker 2: probably yastrobof.
Speaker 1: Uh pavel yastra bof is what I'm going with.
Speaker 2: That sounds so much better than Powell yasterbof, Jester bof
Speaker 2: Jasper Bof. Anyway, they got together in twenty fourteen and said, dear,
Speaker 2: I think we should reorganize this stuff. And Margaret said,
Speaker 2: don't call me dear. We're in a professional environment.
Speaker 1: Also, could you choose any louder?
Speaker 2: Could you to any louder? And they said, let's just
Speaker 2: reorganize our taxonomy here. And I believe what they did
Speaker 2: was they tucked the phobia under phonophobia under mesophonia and
Speaker 2: basically said there's pretty much two things, hyperacusis or mesophonia,
Speaker 2: with phonophobia underneath phonia.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you kind of touched on the distinction between them two.
Speaker 1: Hyperacusis is some sort of mechanical issue. They think it's
Speaker 1: not in the brain. It's just like the sound itself
Speaker 1: is being delivered to your brain way louder than it
Speaker 1: is to other people for some reason. But with mesophone
Speaker 1: and phonophobia, the research seems to strongly suggest that not
Speaker 1: only does it have a neurobiological a brain basis. It
Speaker 1: also may even have a genetic basis as well. They're
Speaker 1: starting to figure out. So it is definitely something going
Speaker 1: on with your neurology. And again, just in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: they finally created a diagnostic definition of mesophonia. So it's
Speaker 1: we have no idea what actually causes mesophonia, but the
Speaker 1: studies that are out are pretty interesting and they seem
Speaker 1: to point to something that I'll point it out when
Speaker 1: we get to it, but I think it's it's the
Speaker 1: smoking gun. It's the reason for mesophonia.
Speaker 2: If you ask me, ooh, well, that sounds like a
Speaker 2: fun cliffhanger.
Speaker 1: Oh, I agree.
Speaker 2: All right. Well, you know they say, if you introduce
Speaker 2: this smoking gun and Act one, you have to fire
Speaker 2: it and Act three.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: So we'll be back right after this commercial break.
Speaker 3: Earning stuff from Josh stuff you shout, all.
Speaker 2: Right, so we're back talking to me siphonia. One thing
Speaker 2: we should mention is, as the yastrobros there are in there,
Speaker 2: what is going on with me? The yastroboffs, we're doing
Speaker 2: their work. It started to become a just a more
Speaker 2: known thing on the internet in twenty eleven. That was
Speaker 2: a New York Times article by Joyce Cohen that sort
Speaker 2: of got it out there in a more public way.
Speaker 2: The growth of Internet forums and Reddit and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, people are getting online and saying
Speaker 2: in the twenty and saying like, hey, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: like I've been living this my whole life, no one's
Speaker 2: ever taken me seriously. And that's kind of one It
Speaker 2: can be one of the great things about the Internet
Speaker 2: is bringing people together for a common ailment that had
Speaker 2: not previously been taken seriously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. That Joyce Cohen New York Times article
Speaker 1: from twenty eleven, by the way, is called when a
Speaker 1: chomp or a slurp is a trigger for outrage, and it,
Speaker 1: like you said, it really helped a lot of people. Right,
Speaker 1: So flash forward to twenty twenty two, we've got the
Speaker 1: diagnostic kind of definition of it. And what they figured
Speaker 1: out is that when you have a about of mesophonia,
Speaker 1: when you're triggered to sound triggers you not only do
Speaker 1: you have like an emotional reaction. Typically it's anger, anxiety, disgust,
Speaker 1: and again, like this is a pronounced emotional reaction. It's
Speaker 1: not like you're just kind of a little annoyed, like
Speaker 1: you're disgusted.
Speaker 2: There was.
Speaker 1: Olivia helped us with this and she turned up I
Speaker 1: think on a Reddit board that somebody who if you
Speaker 1: heard the sound of somebody clipping their toenails, Oh god,
Speaker 1: I'm so disgusted that you would not be able to
Speaker 1: like drink coffee even twenty minutes later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, stuff like that. I like that one.
Speaker 1: So that's discussed. But I think the kind of the
Speaker 1: classic emotion is rage or anger usually associated with it. Like,
Speaker 1: so in addition to the emotional component, there's also a
Speaker 1: physical component too, And like it's been documented, these things
Speaker 1: happen to your body when you're suffering about a misophonia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they sort of smack of sorry, I don't
Speaker 2: even know if these words trigger like the trump smack.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably so I.
Speaker 2: Didn't mean to say that, but you know, like anxiety,
Speaker 2: it sort of mirrors anxiety. Your blood pressure might go up,
Speaker 2: you might start sweating, you might get tightness in the chest, goosebumps.
Speaker 2: I think I said heart rate, and it's it's not
Speaker 2: necessarily you know, it kind of depends on the person
Speaker 2: as to whether or not there's a single trigger that
Speaker 2: affects you or whether you have a lot of them.
Speaker 2: It's not always the same in everybody, and it's there's
Speaker 2: also behavioral responses like like you said, like if maybe
Speaker 2: you mean was having a particularly bad day, she might
Speaker 2: be glaring at you from across the dinner table and
Speaker 2: you're like, you know, stop with the fork in your mouth,
Speaker 2: and you're like, what what of.
Speaker 1: Course chunk of spaghetti hanging out of the side.
Speaker 2: Of my mouth, now you know what?
Speaker 1: Yes, And I knew what before, but again, like I
Speaker 1: just did not. I hadn't done the research, I hadn't
Speaker 1: been around it long enough. I've never met anybody with
Speaker 1: it before. So yes, I was gosh, man, I guess
Speaker 1: I wasn't a very good husband for a little while there.
Speaker 2: No, you were fine. You just didn't know. We're all
Speaker 2: we're all better people now than we were when we
Speaker 2: got together.
Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. I like to think that too, Chuck.
Speaker 2: But it can lead to, like you said, ragy episodes,
Speaker 2: and it's pretty rare, but it can lead to actual
Speaker 2: like violence, feelings, self harm. I think they've documented that
Speaker 2: that's almost always isolated to cases where people have, you know,
Speaker 2: some other mental condition that is comorbid with like it
Speaker 2: maybe a last draw kind of thing, but it can
Speaker 2: you know, it's again just more than an annoyance, and
Speaker 2: I think that's probably the name of this episode.
Speaker 1: I think you're right, you hit upon it. There's also
Speaker 1: some other things that studies have turned up. They found
Speaker 1: that people with mesophonia don't respond to loud noises any
Speaker 1: different typically than other people. So somebody with mesophonia probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't respond with a a mesophonia response to those ambulance sirens, right,
Speaker 1: it's more usually kind of softer, probably wet or something
Speaker 1: like that sounds. I'm sorry, I'm really trying not to,
Speaker 1: but that would make sense why the ASMR episode set
Speaker 1: so many people off, because it's exactly those kind of
Speaker 1: like soft sounds. Like that's why if somebody's like, can
Speaker 1: you tune me louder, You're like, I'm not doing anything unusual,
Speaker 1: but you're making a soft sound, and that is what
Speaker 1: they hone in on. So there's no difference between someone
Speaker 1: with mesophonia and someone without it as far as loud
Speaker 1: sounds go. It's where the softer sounds are, and then
Speaker 1: other sounds that upset most people. Again, this ambulance siren
Speaker 1: siren Well is still very deep. I'm going to go
Speaker 1: back to it again, okay, But also like a baby
Speaker 1: crying or something like that, who wants to hear that? Nobody,
Speaker 1: and that includes people with mesophonia, but that doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: trigger rage in them or mesophonia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, in cases of baby's crying, even
Speaker 2: if you don't have mesophonia, a lot of times that
Speaker 2: is coupled with lack of sleep from new parents, and
Speaker 2: it can get pretty severe. I mean, we were lucky
Speaker 2: with the sleep situation, but I've heard horror stories of
Speaker 2: new parents who are getting you know, three hours of
Speaker 2: sleep a night and a colicky. It's just it's terrible.
Speaker 2: You know, I feel so much, have so much empathy
Speaker 2: for those situations. But back to mesophonia, I guess I
Speaker 2: was just sympathizing for a minute. If we're going to
Speaker 2: talk about how many people have this, the Yastrabofs did
Speaker 2: a I guess, just sort of a a round guess
Speaker 2: of three point two percent in twenty fourteen, but they
Speaker 2: based that on people who came in seeking treatment that
Speaker 2: also usually had tenatus. And obviously, you know we've said
Speaker 2: this before about lots of things you can't really base
Speaker 2: a number like that on people who seek help because
Speaker 2: so many people don't, especially when it's something like this
Speaker 2: that's underdiagnosed and treated right.
Speaker 1: So otherre's other like people who've studied it are saying, no,
Speaker 1: it's more like twenty percent of the entire population, which
Speaker 1: is that's a lot of people's a lot of mesophonia.
Speaker 1: They also think that women are overrepresented among people with mesophonia,
Speaker 1: as much as eighty three percent of people with mesophonia
Speaker 1: might be women. And then there's one other very important
Speaker 1: thing that we need to point out. People with mesophonia
Speaker 1: do not have better or more acute hearing than anybody else.
Speaker 1: That's not the problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not it.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's a difference in the way their brain
Speaker 1: is connected, is what it seems like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we should. I mean, that's a good setup
Speaker 2: for getting into the brain.
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for years now.
Speaker 2: If if you're wondering if they ever stuck somebody into
Speaker 2: a wonder machine and smack some oatmeal in their ear,
Speaker 2: then the answer is yes, of course they have. They
Speaker 2: have done experiments, but as we'll see that, there haven't
Speaker 2: been a ton of them because it is so new
Speaker 2: and probably underfunded. But they did put people in an
Speaker 2: fMRI machine, the Wonder machine, and they found that the
Speaker 2: interior insular cortex the AIC, which in this makes total sense.
Speaker 2: It helps integrate sensory data from like organs and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, but it's also associated with the parts of
Speaker 2: the brain that are responsible for emotion, fear, long term memory,
Speaker 2: and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Yes, here's this is where I think the smoking gun is.
Speaker 2: The aoc act too. We're a little early.
Speaker 1: Because well I haven't fired it yet. Okay, I'm about
Speaker 1: too though. The anterior insular cortex is also a major
Speaker 1: component of what's called the salience network, which is the
Speaker 1: region or the network of your brain that takes stimuli
Speaker 1: from the environment, like you said, from even down to
Speaker 1: your internal organs, and sorts through all of it and
Speaker 1: says not important, not important, not important, Oh, that's important,
Speaker 1: and amplifies it up the chain, and it keeps getting
Speaker 1: amplified and passing through more and more filters until it
Speaker 1: becomes the brains awareness or attention becomes focused on it. Right,
Speaker 1: So that salience network is like, that's important. We need
Speaker 1: we need to let the brain's consciousness like in on
Speaker 1: this thing, and now all of a sudden, you're paying
Speaker 1: attention to that stimulus. What they think, what I think
Speaker 1: in particular, is that there's a hyper activity and or
Speaker 1: hyper connectivity within the ai C that takes things that
Speaker 1: other people are able to filter out and turns them
Speaker 1: into a sound that can trigger you emotionally. And it's
Speaker 1: because your salience network is basically supercharged.
Speaker 2: So that would actually back up what they did with
Speaker 2: the studies with the MRI scans, not the fMRI correct.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where they turned up the medial frontal cortex.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they what they found was the what you
Speaker 2: just said, the medial frontal cortices. If you have mesiphonia,
Speaker 2: they have more or myelin, which we've talked about before.
Speaker 2: It's a batty substance that insulates the nerve cells. But
Speaker 2: they're saying that the excess of myelin kind of backs
Speaker 2: up the idea of that hyperconnectivity with the anterior insular cortex.
Speaker 1: Boom, the gun has just been fired, is now smoking
Speaker 1: bright red, white and blue smoke.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a nerve gun. Of course, people were you know, you're.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for sure. There's one other thing that seems
Speaker 1: to be a bit of a boondoggle in misophoni or research,
Speaker 1: and that is that there's a theory or I guess
Speaker 1: a school of thought that it's actually triggered by overactive
Speaker 1: mirror neurons in somebody.
Speaker 2: H or old friends, and in particular the.
Speaker 1: Motor cortex that has to do again with orofacial movements,
Speaker 1: that those mirror neurons are hyperactive, and that when you
Speaker 1: see somebody or here's somebody chewing, it triggers those mirror
Speaker 1: neurons and it creates a reaction or response in you
Speaker 1: that you can't control because your mirror neurons have have
Speaker 1: taken over. That seems to be untrue.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, even so, we did an episode about mirror
Speaker 2: neurons many many many years ago that it's still super
Speaker 2: interesting to me. And just the quickest sort of summation
Speaker 2: is the idea of mirror neurons are like when you
Speaker 2: see someone in a football game on TV, like break
Speaker 2: their leg in a painful way and you literally feel
Speaker 2: that in your own leg. Yeah, I mean, that's the
Speaker 2: dumbed down version, but that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, that's that's a great example. When I
Speaker 1: when I watch sports like I find myself like leaning,
Speaker 1: like if the guy's trying to avoid a tackle, all
Speaker 1: like turn as well. It doesn't help the guy at all,
Speaker 1: But I can't. I can't stop myself because I'll be
Speaker 1: on the treadmill watching like basketball or something, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm like off off balance a little
Speaker 1: bit because I'm moving along with the guy who's like
Speaker 1: doing the layup.
Speaker 2: I see people do that when they're gaming, like first
Speaker 2: person games. That's the exact same thing, I think, moving
Speaker 2: their body around in weird ways. It's pretty interesting, like
Speaker 2: if you train a camera on somebody gaming. You did
Speaker 2: mention genetics. It may have a genetic component. I think
Speaker 2: they did just an analysis on what's called a gwas
Speaker 2: a gen M wide association study about just rage related mesophonia,
Speaker 2: and they found that it does cluster with PTSD anxiety
Speaker 2: and depression, which indicates it could, you know, have a
Speaker 2: genetic component, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, which makes sense for sure. I didn't see the
Speaker 1: gene that they targeted it to, but I didn't either.
Speaker 1: It does seem to be related genetically. There's also there's
Speaker 1: a researcher from Oxford named Jene Gregory who also suffers
Speaker 1: from mesophonia, and she posits that that mesophonia could be
Speaker 1: like a relic, like an evolutionary relic from back when
Speaker 1: it was advantageous for a group to have a few
Speaker 1: people who responded to sound like way more than other
Speaker 1: people because they essentially served as like alarms for the
Speaker 1: rest of the group.
Speaker 2: All right, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: It's I mean, this is the place that we're at
Speaker 1: in mesophonia research. You can just toss stuff out like
Speaker 1: that and be like yeah, probably.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's also can be comorbid with miso kinesia, and
Speaker 2: that is when you have a mesophonia like response to
Speaker 2: someone's fidgety motions. So I think someone clicking a pin
Speaker 2: can be a mesophonia trigger, but that's also sort of
Speaker 2: a fidgety thing, So that kind of makes sense.
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, if you want to empathize with people
Speaker 1: who have mesophonia and miso kinesia, go on to reddit. Actually,
Speaker 1: any any condition that could be debilitating, go on to
Speaker 1: Reddit and look at the reddit board for that condition,
Speaker 1: and your heart will just go out to people. And
Speaker 1: I looked the miso kinesia reddit board and just the
Speaker 1: first few posts are like the language they use, like
Speaker 1: like want to die. It can't live like this. They're
Speaker 1: not they're not they're not talking about self harm. They're
Speaker 1: saying like it's so like like this is just bonkers
Speaker 1: out of control, and they're talking about being in class
Speaker 1: and everyone's just kind of bouncing their knee and they
Speaker 1: like they they're just so overwhelmed by that and unable
Speaker 1: to not pay attention to it that they just feel
Speaker 1: like they're losing their minds and in just the worst way.
Speaker 1: It's really awful, And I'm not overstating the way that
Speaker 1: they describe it at all.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: One thing I did notice though, on the Misokenesia board
Speaker 1: is one poster said sorry, one op said that they
Speaker 1: counteracted the experience by I guess kind of like mirroring
Speaker 1: what the person was doing. So somebody's bouncing their knee,
Speaker 1: they use their hand to kind of keep time with
Speaker 1: the person's knee, and it's so somehow counteracted or short
Speaker 1: circuited the miso kinesia in them.
Speaker 2: Right then, Well, I mean they've said the same thing
Speaker 2: with mesophonia is that sometimes people will make that sound
Speaker 2: themselves to counteract it, and that can help.
Speaker 1: Yes, So if you're ever clicking a pen and your
Speaker 1: coworker stands up and just shouts.
Speaker 2: Click click click click click.
Speaker 1: They probably are having a mesophonic episode, right then, Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure, and you stop clicking your pen.
Speaker 2: It can you know, it can affect obviously the workplace
Speaker 2: in negative ways, but it can also affect your relationships
Speaker 2: and your your family. It can. It has been described
Speaker 2: as contagious in a way because if you're let's say,
Speaker 2: in a close relationship, maybe like married to somebody or
Speaker 2: coupled up with someone or living with someone with mesophonia,
Speaker 2: you might become very attuned to their trigger sounds. And
Speaker 2: it's not the same as having mesophonia, but it's it
Speaker 2: is contagious in a way in that all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: like if you then were really on the lookout for
Speaker 2: the sound of people, you know, chewing their food because
Speaker 2: of being married to you me that obviously it's not
Speaker 2: as bad for you, but it can get into your
Speaker 2: brain and sort of take over in a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think it's like it could trigger
Speaker 1: mesophony in somebody else. I don't buy that. Well, you've
Speaker 1: just become hyper vigilant on behalf of your spouse because
Speaker 1: you care about them so you could conceivably get angry
Speaker 1: at somebody daring to chew around them because you know
Speaker 1: what it's doing to them. That's what I take that as.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, absolutely, but I think that they say it.
Speaker 2: It can be worse with people that are close to you,
Speaker 2: right than like out in a restaurant with a random stranger.
Speaker 2: You might get more bothered by your your family members,
Speaker 2: your coupled person.
Speaker 1: Yes, if you have mesophonia, usually it's the people who
Speaker 1: are closest to you that can set you off the easiest.
Speaker 2: Right I with your spaghetti and your mouth.
Speaker 1: I've not figured out exactly why. My guess would be
Speaker 1: that they know that you know what they're going through
Speaker 1: and you're still doing it. Maybe you see very thoughtless
Speaker 1: or careless. Yeah, right then that would be That would
Speaker 1: be mine my guess. But there's a huge component of
Speaker 1: this that I think really kind of supports that salience
Speaker 1: network hypothesis of mine, let's hear it, and that is
Speaker 1: that the sounds seem to have also like a personal
Speaker 1: emotional component to them, like the yastrobofs their Their theory
Speaker 1: is that, like the Olympic system, is very much involved,
Speaker 1: which it would explain why emotions there. So if you
Speaker 1: combine the Olympic system with the salience network, the emotions
Speaker 1: you're feeling are like personal. It feels personal to you.
Speaker 1: Hence why you would feel something like outrage or profound
Speaker 1: disgust or something like that. You feel like you're being
Speaker 1: personally attacked.
Speaker 2: Right then, Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like your brain has told you this is a
Speaker 1: very very important stimulus and you need to respond to
Speaker 1: it in kind. That's that's the salience hypothesis.
Speaker 2: I like it. Can we call it the Josh Clark
Speaker 2: salient hypothesis?
Speaker 1: I've been hoping you would say that all episode.
Speaker 2: The j C s h it almost spells Josh, it does?
Speaker 2: Can we rework that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Can you turn that scene into it?
Speaker 2: Well? Sure?
Speaker 1: Can you tell?
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if you knew what you were saying,
Speaker 2: So I was just giving you a backdoor.
Speaker 1: But no, no, I knew it, Josh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just did it for you. Hey, you may
Speaker 2: have been at one point. You never know, all right,
Speaker 2: So well, let's take a break now and we'll come
Speaker 2: back and talk about what you probably think is coming
Speaker 2: with your myriad forms of CBT behavioral therapies. Right after this.
Speaker 3: Stuff, Josh stuff you shut.
Speaker 1: So one of the saddest things about misophonia and misokinesia,
Speaker 1: aside from the fact that people suffer from it, is
Speaker 1: that they're like the treatment landscape is so hit or miss,
Speaker 1: that there's so little widespread information out there among clinicians
Speaker 1: that you very well might go to see a E
Speaker 1: and T or a psychologist or a psychiatrist or even
Speaker 1: like a neurologist that's particularly uninformed. You might basically say,
Speaker 1: this is your problem where your plugs, like just relax,
Speaker 1: go do mindfulness or something like that, and some of
Speaker 1: that stuff can help. But if that's all you're being
Speaker 1: met with, like that's not that's no treatment whatsoever. So
Speaker 1: fortunately there are people who have really started to study
Speaker 1: how to treat it, and one of the things that
Speaker 1: they've discovered is that good old cognitive behavioral therapy CBT
Speaker 1: seems to work for it, at least as far as
Speaker 1: any decent study has shown. It definitely has some effect
Speaker 1: compared to control groups.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a trial in twenty twenty randomized clinical
Speaker 2: trial that found that there was significant improvement in thirty
Speaker 2: seven percent of the group that completed CBT versus zero
Speaker 2: percent for the control group and that a year later,
Speaker 2: those thirty seven percent seem to be holding, which is great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what they call statistically significant.
Speaker 2: I would say. So we also should mention as we're
Speaker 2: going through these various treatments, there are good people doing
Speaker 2: a lot of great work, but there are also you know,
Speaker 2: just be wary. There are also people online that are
Speaker 2: just lining up to take your money to help you
Speaker 2: with this that may be quacky.
Speaker 1: Yes, So like if somebody has earplugs that the description
Speaker 1: almost makes seem magical, you should steer clear of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Or if somebody says this supplement or this chrystal or
Speaker 1: this tarot deck is going to help you, it's not.
Speaker 1: So just don't go seek out a neurologist, a neuropsychologist
Speaker 1: or neuropsychiatrist, I should say, and they should be able
Speaker 1: to help you do research yourself and say, hey, I
Speaker 1: want CBT or I want to try something called unified protocol,
Speaker 1: which is called transdiagnostic therapy, meaning that you can use
Speaker 1: it for all sorts of different things that stir up
Speaker 1: strong emotions. It basically likes CBT. It gives you tools
Speaker 1: to identify what triggers your emotional reactions, what you feel
Speaker 1: like when you're having that emotional reaction, to how to
Speaker 1: deal when you're having that emotional reaction, and then also
Speaker 1: if you're lucky, how to distance yourself from the emotional
Speaker 1: reaction and the trigger that causes it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are lots of I feel like
Speaker 2: all of these are sort of just a reskinned version
Speaker 2: of the same kind of thing, which is which are
Speaker 2: those therapies identifying mindfulness, recognizing behaviors, learning, you know, one
Speaker 2: thing called cognitive flexibility, like kind of retraining your brain.
Speaker 2: The one that's a little different, I think is the
Speaker 2: Tenatus Retraining Therapy, the TRT they've been using for misponia,
Speaker 2: it seems like with some pretty good results. It's basically
Speaker 2: sound therapy where you have a wearable device that plays
Speaker 2: like a very low level like white noise or pink noise,
Speaker 2: whatever your noise of whatever color noise you prefer, I guess,
Speaker 2: but just below the volume threshold of that trigger sound.
Speaker 2: And the Jastroboffs say that eighty percent of the patients
Speaker 2: that have tried that have had pretty good success.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The key is you want to gradually increase, like
Speaker 1: the volume of that trigger sound against the background of
Speaker 1: that pink noise so that you can you're basically it's
Speaker 1: a type of exposure therapy, which is very controversial with mesophonia. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure, a lot of people say, do not try
Speaker 1: exposure therapy. That does not work, and actually it makes
Speaker 1: it worse because what you're doing is enraging yourself and
Speaker 1: all you're doing is strengthening that neural pathway that triggers
Speaker 1: that rage in the first place. So it's not only
Speaker 1: not helpful, it's actually counterproductive. Other people say, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: You can do certain types of exposure therapy like the
Speaker 1: yastrobots TRT with the pink noise, but if you do
Speaker 1: start to have an emotional response, stop, Like anybody who
Speaker 1: has any understanding there as a healthcare provider of mesophonia
Speaker 1: will tell you that if you have an emotional response
Speaker 1: to mesophonia while you're trying to while you're under undergoing treatment,
Speaker 1: stop the treatment, get away from the sound. That's like
Speaker 1: best practices. If somebody is trying to force you to
Speaker 1: just hang in there through it during disclosure therapy, you're
Speaker 1: being treated by a quack and you need to find
Speaker 1: somebody else to help you because they don't understand musophonia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this one I don't fully understand. This is
Speaker 2: Jane Gregory again from Oxford. She has worked on a
Speaker 2: situation where or I guess, a therapy where she tries
Speaker 2: to create a different association with that sound. And she
Speaker 2: did this in one case at least by riding one
Speaker 2: of those like an amusement park like Disney World. I guess,
Speaker 2: like a dizzy ride, like a spinning teacup ride while listening.
Speaker 1: To what was it in this case, her husband's slurping tea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Josh eating spaghetti, right, which makes sense in a way,
Speaker 2: But then like, wouldn't that just make you dizzy? Wouldn't
Speaker 2: you want to choose something that's not also awful? I
Speaker 2: think that what she loved those rides.
Speaker 1: She must love those rides, And also I think she
Speaker 1: was after making the whole thing silly, So like when
Speaker 1: she her husband slurp tea, she would think about spinning
Speaker 1: around in a teacup and and that might kind of
Speaker 1: disarm her rage or something.
Speaker 2: Okay, I guess I hear that, and I'm like, those
Speaker 2: are the worst rides because it just makes me sick
Speaker 2: to my stomach.
Speaker 1: So I'm totally with you.
Speaker 2: Maybe the yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so that is a weird, weird example. But
Speaker 1: what the basis of that therapy is is that you're
Speaker 1: you're you're listening to the trigger sound while also doing
Speaker 1: something else or learning to associate it with something else
Speaker 1: that's not that horrible emotional reaction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well that makes sense.
Speaker 1: And then also, Chuck, there's there's self treatment for me
Speaker 1: sophonia that people have discovered along the way, like listen,
Speaker 1: like wearing noise canceling headphones. Yeah, wearing headphones where you're
Speaker 1: listening to pink noise or some kind of noise or music,
Speaker 1: like just putting a barrier between you and any any
Speaker 1: sound that you know might trigger you. And then there's
Speaker 1: there's other techniques too, but they're very sad, like not
Speaker 1: eating with your family because you are probably going to
Speaker 1: get triggered and it's sad, but that's a really effective
Speaker 1: intervention for mesophonia.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a woman named Shalin Hayes Raymond who is
Speaker 2: a co founder of Mesophonia International, and her whole gam
Speaker 2: is like self advocacy, So you know, don't just you know,
Speaker 2: it's okay to tell your family that, hey, can you
Speaker 2: try and avoid these triggering sounds? Can you be aware
Speaker 2: of what I'm going through? Can you understand if I
Speaker 2: have to leave the room during like a big family meal.
Speaker 1: Can you go stand the subreddit on mesophonia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of, but to advocate for yourself also, and
Speaker 2: things like noise canceling headphones like you mentioned, or just
Speaker 2: like getting out of there like you said, like leaving
Speaker 2: the room, because from what I've seen, it calms down
Speaker 2: pretty quickly if you can remove yourself from the sound,
Speaker 2: you don't stay in that state for you know, hours,
Speaker 2: generally from what I've seen, right, Yes, yeah, it can
Speaker 2: pass fairly quickly, So that's the good news.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then also the good news is that there
Speaker 1: are smart people who have begun to study this in
Speaker 1: addition to the yastroboths who are making some headway. So
Speaker 1: hopefully there will be some sort of like verifiable cure
Speaker 1: treatment for it in the not too distant future.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, we're talking about a thing that's just
Speaker 2: been seriously looked at in the last twenty years. You'd
Speaker 2: imagine there'll be a lot of headway made, and I
Speaker 2: think just getting like an episode out here for people
Speaker 2: that maybe have been like poking fun at someone in
Speaker 2: their life, not taking it as seriously, like hopefully this
Speaker 2: will help that, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're the Joyce Cohen's of podcasting. Did you get that?
Speaker 2: I did? I mean that was I don't know. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I thought you were talking about the self advocate who's
Speaker 2: Joyce going.
Speaker 1: She's the woman who wrote the twenty eleven New York
Speaker 1: Times article that told everybody who.
Speaker 2: Was that was the other person? I got it. I
Speaker 2: thought you were saying Joyce Brothers who won on.
Speaker 1: What was that show, quiz Quiz Show? It was like
Speaker 1: quizz show. Remember she won like big time on a
Speaker 1: game show, and like you had to pick what topic
Speaker 1: you wanted to be deeply quizzed on, and she chose
Speaker 1: boxing and just wiped the floor with her opponent.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yep, that was on our game show episode. Really,
Speaker 2: I don't remember that that.
Speaker 1: For some reason, that always stuck out to me. Joyce
Speaker 1: Brothers in boxing. It's like kind of cognitive dissonance. That
Speaker 1: just stuck with me. Yeah, totally, you got anything else
Speaker 1: on mesophonia?
Speaker 2: Nope?
Speaker 1: Well, our heart goes out to all of you out
Speaker 1: there listening to us who have misophonia. We hope we
Speaker 1: didn't trigger you. We hope we've never triggered you. And
Speaker 1: sorry again about that time with the asmr uh. And
Speaker 1: since I said that it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 2: I'm going to call this is very interesting Irish famine connection.
Speaker 2: Hey guys, listen every day on my drive to work
Speaker 2: in rural Ireland. Luckily an episode is just rt link
Speaker 2: for my forty mile trip on the Selects episode. This
Speaker 2: is about an old one from famines in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: You did a nice job describing the nature of the
Speaker 2: Irish famine, But rather than bemoan the terrible response of
Speaker 2: the British rulers, I wanted to celebrate the amazing gesture
Speaker 2: of the Choctaw Nation of Americans of sorry Native Americans, who,
Speaker 2: upon hearing of the plight of the Irish people during
Speaker 2: the famine, gathered up one hundred and seventy dollars at
Speaker 2: the time, which was fairly significant money to send over
Speaker 2: for help. This incredible active generosity came from people who
Speaker 2: had only recently themselves suffered terribly during the infamous Trail
Speaker 2: of Tears, showing the true nature of them as a people.
Speaker 2: This kindness had never been forgotten, has never been forgotten,
Speaker 2: and thankfully, now that Ireland is a country of significant wealth,
Speaker 2: we have been able to give back. There has been
Speaker 2: a spectacular monument erected in honor of the Choctaw Irish connection,
Speaker 2: and also a university scholarship program in and that's program
Speaker 2: with two ms and a kN E in Cork where
Speaker 2: members of the Chalcdaw nation can avail of a fully
Speaker 2: paid bed or a master's degree. I guess b ed
Speaker 2: is an undergrad. Yeah, and living expenses paid. Also. Wow,
Speaker 2: this is something I teach my students in geography classes
Speaker 2: on migration at a high school level, as I think
Speaker 2: it is so important to recognize the and that's recognized
Speaker 2: within the incredible human acts that take place in these
Speaker 2: terrible moments. Really enjoy the variety of things you cover.
Speaker 2: And thanks for looking beyond the potato in Irish history.
Speaker 2: And that is from Bob Grace in County Carlos.
Speaker 1: That's awesome.
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Bob, super cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wonderful. I had no idea about the scholarship,
Speaker 1: did you. I feel like we I feel like we
Speaker 1: mentioned that in another episode. I don't remember which one.
Speaker 1: Maybe Trail of Tears. Oh really, I don't remember, because yeah,
Speaker 1: it does sound familiar, but I definitely don't remember the
Speaker 1: college scholarship thing. So way to go, Bob.
Speaker 2: Well, you know me, I've forgotten anyway, so I'm happy
Speaker 2: to relearn it.
Speaker 1: It's awesome. I wish I were you. You could just
Speaker 1: watch movies over and over again.
Speaker 2: I'm like that Guy Memento.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Guy Pierce.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with this, like
Speaker 1: Bob Grace did with a great story, we want to
Speaker 1: hear it. You can send it off via email to
Speaker 1: stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.