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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, we are coming to a town ostensibly near you,

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Speaker 1: so putatively see us.

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Speaker 2: That's right, May twenty ninth. We'll be in Boston, really Medford, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: The next night we're gonna go down to Washington, DC,

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Speaker 2: and then scooch back up to New York City at

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Speaker 2: Town Hall on May thirty first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you're one of those people who likes

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Speaker 1: to plan way far in advance, then you can go

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Speaker 1: ahead and get tickets for our shows in August. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna start out where Chuck.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna be in Chicago August seventh, Minneapolis August eighth,

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Speaker 2: then Indianapolis for the very first time on August ninth,

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Speaker 2: and then we're gonna wrap it up in Durham, North Carolina,

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Speaker 2: and right here in Atlanta on September fifth and September seventh.

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Speaker 1: Yep. So you can get all the info you need

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Speaker 1: and all the ticket links you need by going to

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Speaker 1: stuff youshould Know dot com and hitting that tour button,

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Speaker 1: or you can also go to linktree slash SYSK Live.

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Speaker 1: We'll see you guys this year.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry's here too. It's the trio, the Tom

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Speaker 1: and Jerry and Jerry of podcasting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, how about Tom and Jerry and Jerry's little

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Speaker 1: like nephew who's always getting in trouble but he's super cute.

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Speaker 2: Is that a character? Yeah? I'm not sure if I

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Speaker 2: remember that.

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Speaker 1: He was a little great kid in diapers, very very cute.

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Speaker 1: Even Tom wanted to take care of him.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it feels like so many shows and cartoons felt

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Speaker 2: the need to bring on like a little cute edition

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Speaker 2: every now and then. Whether it was cousin Oliver, I

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Speaker 2: was gonna say him on The Brady Bunch or god Zuki?

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Speaker 2: Who Godzilla and god Zuki? Mm hmm, Yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: a little cute baby Godzilla.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's great, we'll good. Way to go, Godzilla. You

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Speaker 1: really slip went past Goalie or whoever?

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Speaker 2: This one? Who's this one? What's his name?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Jerry. That's why I said Tom and

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Speaker 1: Jerry and Jerry, I gotcha. There's also don't forget Captain

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Speaker 1: Caveman and Son. Yeah, pretty straightforward stuff. Uh, but that's

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Speaker 1: not at all what we're talking about, Chuck, Let's just

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Speaker 1: get serious here. Let's get down to brass tacks. Let's

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Speaker 1: get down to the facts. In other words, as our

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Speaker 1: Cockney friends say, we're talking about misophonia. And there was

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Speaker 1: an O in there somewhere, but my voice hitched mesophonia.

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Speaker 1: And it's possible I just accidentally set some people off

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Speaker 1: because when I said it that second time, I articulated

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Speaker 1: it clearly the oh. And vocal articulation or speech articulation

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Speaker 1: where you're really pronouncing a phoneme can can trigger mesophonia,

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Speaker 1: which we should say means hatred of sound and is

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Speaker 1: essentially a outrage just nervous reaction to sounds that make

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Speaker 1: the average that the other the average person doesn't even notice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll get into like all of the stuff

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Speaker 2: here with me sophonia, But it's it seems to be

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Speaker 2: more like, uh, generally, more like sounds people make, like

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Speaker 2: you often hear about like chewing food or lip smacking

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Speaker 2: or chewing gum, just sort of like body sounds that

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Speaker 2: people make yawning sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly oro facial like this yeah, or nose yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that's typically it. I mean, you know, there's a

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Speaker 2: range of stuff, but I thought maybe we could chat

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Speaker 2: very briefly just about sounds that you hate, Like if

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Speaker 2: you have any triggering sounds at all, it.

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Speaker 1: Triggers probably a strong word, because I don't like fly

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Speaker 1: into rage. I don't necessarily feel disgusted. Like the closest

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Speaker 1: would be someone using a leaf blower. I just think

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Speaker 1: those are the worst people on the planet.

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Speaker 2: I forgot about that. You're you're long running feud with

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Speaker 2: the I can't stand them chucked the blowers. I know

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Speaker 2: I'm with you, So I have a couple of things,

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Speaker 2: but uh, similarly to you. Similarly uh oh, here we go.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: It's like a noise thing, like an ambulance crossing close by,

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Speaker 2: Like I plugged my ears like a five year old.

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Speaker 2: I can't take it.

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Speaker 1: How about his new ambulance sirens are like who? I've

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Speaker 1: heard those.

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Speaker 2: I've heard those save bonkers. But if I'm on a

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Speaker 2: on a on a street and there's like a rush

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Speaker 2: of emergency services, I have to plug my ears. When

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Speaker 2: I'm using an airplane toilet, I have to plug my

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Speaker 2: ears for that that sucubus flush sound. Cannot hear it.

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Speaker 2: But those, I think are just like loud noises, which

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Speaker 2: is we'll see, isn't the same as mesa phone. The

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Speaker 2: closest I can come with mesophony as far as like

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Speaker 2: an emotional thing that really feels like it's connected to

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Speaker 2: my brain is hearing two kinds of music at the

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Speaker 2: same time. And it's when Ruby was growing up. It's

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Speaker 2: a big thing when like we'd be playing music and

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Speaker 2: she would come into the room with some dumb kid

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Speaker 2: toy that plays music, and it just it makes me

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Speaker 2: crazy and angry very fast. And it's clear it's not

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Speaker 2: just like, oh that annoys me. It's like a real thing.

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm trying to listen to pavement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it triggers me in such a way that

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I think I understand that neuro connective annoyance,

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Speaker 2: which is not the same as just like I don't

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Speaker 2: like that sound.

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Speaker 1: So you has mesophonia. She's never been clinically diagnosed, but

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Speaker 1: she very much has it. Yeah, Oh yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: It's like the orofacial stuff like chewing, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're just now telling me that she's I know.

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Speaker 1: It's just fun to sit back and observe when you

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Speaker 1: guys are all in the same room together. Right, So

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Speaker 1: she has like I would say, maybe middling middling mesophonia.

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Speaker 2: Okay, she can control it, but I think.

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Speaker 1: If there's like she's having a bad enough day, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or she's stressed or something like that and it's triggered,

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Speaker 1: she'd be more likely to be like can you chew

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Speaker 1: any louder or something like that. Right, But normally she

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Speaker 1: can like just kind of just chill and like deal

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Speaker 1: with it. But now that I've done the research, I'm like, man,

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Speaker 1: I like I feel for her more than I ever

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Speaker 1: had before as far as that stuff is concerned. And

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Speaker 1: it's not like this is news to me. Like I

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Speaker 1: knew she had mesophonia. I understand it, but just the

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Speaker 1: degree that it affects people. She just plays it really cool.

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Speaker 1: And knowing now that what's going on inside of her

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Speaker 1: while she's playing it cool makes me never want to

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Speaker 1: eat around her again, just out of out of support.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a that's whet be playing it cool

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Speaker 2: is the UMI way, So that doesn't surprise me. And see,

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Speaker 2: you know you mentioned her if she's already anxious or

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Speaker 2: something about something else, like as we'll see, there are

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Speaker 2: comorbidities that can definitely make it worse. And I imagine

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Speaker 2: just being in an anxious state, like with anything else,

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Speaker 2: something annoying will could you know, push you over the edge?

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Speaker 1: Exactly, You're already right there. And yes, it's a it's

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Speaker 1: an emotional reaction, a profound emotional reaction. And you said

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Speaker 1: something else too that I think is worth worth really

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Speaker 1: kind of digging into for a second, Like you don't

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Speaker 1: like ambulances. Nobody likes the sound of ambulance. That ambulance

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Speaker 1: siren is designed to annoy you, to basically get you

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Speaker 1: out of the way, to catch your attention, right, but

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Speaker 1: not in a good way. They don't want you standing

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Speaker 1: around like jamming out to the siren something. Right, So

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Speaker 1: that makes sense someone chewing. The sound of someone chewing

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Speaker 1: doesn't send the average person into a state of like

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Speaker 1: anger or in severe cases like rage. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: where you're yelling at the other person because they're chewing

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Speaker 1: like a normal person. That's really where mesophonia begins, where

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Speaker 1: just a sound that wouldn't really upset anybody else really

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Speaker 1: affects you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And we heard from the reason. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're getting to it kind of late. But when we

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Speaker 2: did our ASMR episode, we heard from a lot of

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Speaker 2: people with mesophonia that were like, hey, a lot of

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Speaker 2: this episode triggered me, and like, it's a real thing,

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Speaker 2: and I think we might have even poked fun at

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Speaker 2: it a little bit. And we're like even doings like

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Speaker 2: smacking sounds and things because we were oblivious at the

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Speaker 2: time to what a real thing it is. So we're

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Speaker 2: doing this to make up for that in a way.

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Speaker 2: And we're not gonna give examples of sounds because we

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Speaker 2: do know that it's a serious thing. It's not something

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Speaker 2: to be made fun of. Our laughed at is to

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Speaker 2: be taken now rely. And that is part of the

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Speaker 2: history of mesophonia, and continuing history is clinicians basically being like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what this is, but you learned to

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Speaker 2: deal with it. If you don't like the way your

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Speaker 2: husband choose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about history. One of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: people who finally go in to get diagnosed and treated

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Speaker 1: for mesophonia, one of the reasons they run into that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. Their doctor might tell them just where

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Speaker 1: earplugs or get a hold of yourself or something like that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or their psychologists might be like, you clearly have other issues.

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Speaker 1: This is just some symptom of it. Mesa phonia is

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Speaker 1: like a very new thing. It has no clinical definition anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Apparently there was a committee that got together as recently

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Speaker 1: as like, I think two thousand, fourteen, fifteen sixteen, very recently,

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: No, twenty twenty two was when the expert committee got okay, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So during COVID that's how recent this was. Time now exactly,

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Speaker 1: They're like, I guess we'll get around to it. But

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Speaker 1: they finally said, Okay, this is a thing. This is

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Speaker 1: what this thing is, it consists of, and this is

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Speaker 1: how we think maybe you could conceivably treat it. It's

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Speaker 1: that new. It was only back in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: one that it was first described. Two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: the twenty first century, it's like a brand new disorder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. In two thousand and one, that was when a

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Speaker 2: couple that is going to figure pretty heavily in this one,

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Speaker 2: because they were sort of the ogs, Powell and Margaret Jastreboff.

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Speaker 2: They were from Poland, the married couple. They were professors

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Speaker 2: of otto, laryn larryonology, laryngology. Yeah, jeez, I had it right.

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Speaker 2: It sounds funny, that's a E and T study. Basically,

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Speaker 2: they were here at Emory, I guess in Atlanta, and

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Speaker 2: Powell was studying tenadus TRT, specifically tendus retraining therapy, and

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Speaker 2: Margaret she was studying cancer research. But I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm also involved in this tenantus thing, and we're both

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Speaker 2: going all in. It's two thousand and one on what

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Speaker 2: did they call the grouping over sensitive hearing well Decreased

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Speaker 2: sound tolerance conditions DST conditions, which at the time included hyperacusis,

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Speaker 2: phonophobia with a B and then misophonia with an N.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot of info.

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Speaker 2: It is a lot of info.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I can just hear you saying

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Speaker 1: like I had a bout of tenidus while I was

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Speaker 1: getting it to two. I'm going with tonitis, all right.

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Speaker 1: I'm also going with Pavel because differ from poland, so

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Speaker 1: I think his name's Pavel.

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Speaker 2: It was a w A I think, so, yeah, you're

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Speaker 2: probably right.

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Speaker 1: I think they actually spell vodka with the W over there.

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Speaker 1: It's just off to be alive, right, So at first

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Speaker 1: they were saying like, Okay, there's all these things that

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Speaker 1: are kind of lumped together. Like you said, the DSTs

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Speaker 1: to decrease sound tolerance, and they can kind of present

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Speaker 1: in different ways. Hyperacusis is definitely its own thing. They

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Speaker 1: think that maybe something happened to your ear, you damaged it.

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Speaker 1: There's a facial muscle that controls it, that controls like

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Speaker 1: how much your ear intensifies or amplifies a sound, and

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Speaker 1: if that muscle is damaged, this sound is going to

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Speaker 1: just come raging through your brain. So if you hear

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Speaker 1: somebody typing on a keyboard, you might have to crawl

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Speaker 1: under your desk and want to die.

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Speaker 2: It seems like really loud, though not annoying exactly. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it's annoying, but it's it's the decibel level

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Speaker 2: is the issue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to have more of a produce, more

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Speaker 1: of a physical reaction than just an emotional reaction. And

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Speaker 1: if it is an emotional reaction, that seems to be

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Speaker 1: more like suffering than rage. Yeah, phone of phobia. They

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Speaker 1: were like, okay, that's a separate thing too for now.

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Speaker 1: And that is a fear of loud sounds. And the

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Speaker 1: reason that it's a phobia is because you're afraid of

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Speaker 1: loud sounds. That can't actually hurt you, like the sound

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Speaker 1: of traffic or the sound of emergency services.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, an ambulance or something like toilet and a plane.

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Speaker 1: So if you felt fear while you were plugging your

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Speaker 1: ears and maybe even ran away, you would probably have phonophobia.

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Speaker 2: No, it doesn't reach those levels. It's just it bothers me.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not afraid to look like a five year

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Speaker 2: old in public.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Man, I want to see that so bad. I'm surprised.

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Speaker 2: I surely I've done that in front of you.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not, I've not seen it. I would definitely remember.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know one thing, we've never been in

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Speaker 2: an airplane bathroom together.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm going to That's true. You

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Speaker 1: know what I'm going to do is next time we're

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Speaker 1: on tour and we're hanging out backstage, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: start a fire right and sit around and wait for

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: That's a great idea, Okay.

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Speaker 1: And then there's mesophonia too, which is the topic of

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Speaker 1: this episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think they went on, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of studying that stuff for about a dozen years, and

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Speaker 2: then in twenty fourteen is when they said, and this

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Speaker 2: is the couple the Jasper boffs, Yeah, yst Or, it's

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Speaker 2: probably yastrobof.

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Speaker 1: Uh pavel yastra bof is what I'm going with.

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Speaker 2: That sounds so much better than Powell yasterbof, Jester bof

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Speaker 2: Jasper Bof. Anyway, they got together in twenty fourteen and said, dear,

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Speaker 2: I think we should reorganize this stuff. And Margaret said,

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Speaker 2: don't call me dear. We're in a professional environment.

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Speaker 1: Also, could you choose any louder?

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Speaker 2: Could you to any louder? And they said, let's just

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Speaker 2: reorganize our taxonomy here. And I believe what they did

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Speaker 2: was they tucked the phobia under phonophobia under mesophonia and

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Speaker 2: basically said there's pretty much two things, hyperacusis or mesophonia,

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Speaker 2: with phonophobia underneath phonia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you kind of touched on the distinction between them two.

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Speaker 1: Hyperacusis is some sort of mechanical issue. They think it's

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Speaker 1: not in the brain. It's just like the sound itself

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Speaker 1: is being delivered to your brain way louder than it

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Speaker 1: is to other people for some reason. But with mesophone

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Speaker 1: and phonophobia, the research seems to strongly suggest that not

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Speaker 1: only does it have a neurobiological a brain basis. It

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Speaker 1: also may even have a genetic basis as well. They're

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Speaker 1: starting to figure out. So it is definitely something going

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Speaker 1: on with your neurology. And again, just in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: they finally created a diagnostic definition of mesophonia. So it's

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Speaker 1: we have no idea what actually causes mesophonia, but the

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Speaker 1: studies that are out are pretty interesting and they seem

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Speaker 1: to point to something that I'll point it out when

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Speaker 1: we get to it, but I think it's it's the

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Speaker 1: smoking gun. It's the reason for mesophonia.

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Speaker 2: If you ask me, ooh, well, that sounds like a

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Speaker 2: fun cliffhanger.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I agree.

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Speaker 2: All right. Well, you know they say, if you introduce

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Speaker 2: this smoking gun and Act one, you have to fire

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Speaker 2: it and Act three.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So we'll be back right after this commercial break.

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Speaker 3: Earning stuff from Josh stuff you shout, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, so we're back talking to me siphonia. One thing

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Speaker 2: we should mention is, as the yastrobros there are in there,

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Speaker 2: what is going on with me? The yastroboffs, we're doing

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Speaker 2: their work. It started to become a just a more

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Speaker 2: known thing on the internet in twenty eleven. That was

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Speaker 2: a New York Times article by Joyce Cohen that sort

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Speaker 2: of got it out there in a more public way.

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Speaker 2: The growth of Internet forums and Reddit and stuff like that,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, people are getting online and saying

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Speaker 2: in the twenty and saying like, hey, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: like I've been living this my whole life, no one's

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Speaker 2: ever taken me seriously. And that's kind of one It

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Speaker 2: can be one of the great things about the Internet

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Speaker 2: is bringing people together for a common ailment that had

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Speaker 2: not previously been taken seriously.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. That Joyce Cohen New York Times article

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Speaker 1: from twenty eleven, by the way, is called when a

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Speaker 1: chomp or a slurp is a trigger for outrage, and it,

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Speaker 1: like you said, it really helped a lot of people. Right,

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Speaker 1: So flash forward to twenty twenty two, we've got the

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Speaker 1: diagnostic kind of definition of it. And what they figured

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Speaker 1: out is that when you have a about of mesophonia,

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Speaker 1: when you're triggered to sound triggers you not only do

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Speaker 1: you have like an emotional reaction. Typically it's anger, anxiety, disgust,

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Speaker 1: and again, like this is a pronounced emotional reaction. It's

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Speaker 1: not like you're just kind of a little annoyed, like

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Speaker 1: you're disgusted.

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Speaker 2: There was.

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Speaker 1: Olivia helped us with this and she turned up I

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Speaker 1: think on a Reddit board that somebody who if you

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Speaker 1: heard the sound of somebody clipping their toenails, Oh god,

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Speaker 1: I'm so disgusted that you would not be able to

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Speaker 1: like drink coffee even twenty minutes later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, stuff like that. I like that one.

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Speaker 1: So that's discussed. But I think the kind of the

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Speaker 1: classic emotion is rage or anger usually associated with it. Like,

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Speaker 1: so in addition to the emotional component, there's also a

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Speaker 1: physical component too, And like it's been documented, these things

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Speaker 1: happen to your body when you're suffering about a misophonia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they sort of smack of sorry, I don't

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Speaker 2: even know if these words trigger like the trump smack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably so I.

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Speaker 2: Didn't mean to say that, but you know, like anxiety,

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Speaker 2: it sort of mirrors anxiety. Your blood pressure might go up,

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Speaker 2: you might start sweating, you might get tightness in the chest, goosebumps.

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Speaker 2: I think I said heart rate, and it's it's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily you know, it kind of depends on the person

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Speaker 2: as to whether or not there's a single trigger that

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Speaker 2: affects you or whether you have a lot of them.

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Speaker 2: It's not always the same in everybody, and it's there's

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Speaker 2: also behavioral responses like like you said, like if maybe

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Speaker 2: you mean was having a particularly bad day, she might

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Speaker 2: be glaring at you from across the dinner table and

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Speaker 2: you're like, you know, stop with the fork in your mouth,

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Speaker 2: and you're like, what what of.

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Speaker 1: Course chunk of spaghetti hanging out of the side.

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Speaker 2: Of my mouth, now you know what?

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I knew what before, but again, like I

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Speaker 1: just did not. I hadn't done the research, I hadn't

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Speaker 1: been around it long enough. I've never met anybody with

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Speaker 1: it before. So yes, I was gosh, man, I guess

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Speaker 1: I wasn't a very good husband for a little while there.

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Speaker 2: No, you were fine. You just didn't know. We're all

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Speaker 2: we're all better people now than we were when we

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Speaker 2: got together.

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Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. I like to think that too, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: But it can lead to, like you said, ragy episodes,

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Speaker 2: and it's pretty rare, but it can lead to actual

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Speaker 2: like violence, feelings, self harm. I think they've documented that

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Speaker 2: that's almost always isolated to cases where people have, you know,

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Speaker 2: some other mental condition that is comorbid with like it

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Speaker 2: maybe a last draw kind of thing, but it can

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Speaker 2: you know, it's again just more than an annoyance, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's probably the name of this episode.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, you hit upon it. There's also

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Speaker 1: some other things that studies have turned up. They found

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Speaker 1: that people with mesophonia don't respond to loud noises any

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Speaker 1: different typically than other people. So somebody with mesophonia probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't respond with a a mesophonia response to those ambulance sirens, right,

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Speaker 1: it's more usually kind of softer, probably wet or something

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Speaker 1: like that sounds. I'm sorry, I'm really trying not to,

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Speaker 1: but that would make sense why the ASMR episode set

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Speaker 1: so many people off, because it's exactly those kind of

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Speaker 1: like soft sounds. Like that's why if somebody's like, can

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Speaker 1: you tune me louder, You're like, I'm not doing anything unusual,

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Speaker 1: but you're making a soft sound, and that is what

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Speaker 1: they hone in on. So there's no difference between someone

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Speaker 1: with mesophonia and someone without it as far as loud

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Speaker 1: sounds go. It's where the softer sounds are, and then

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Speaker 1: other sounds that upset most people. Again, this ambulance siren

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Speaker 1: siren Well is still very deep. I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: back to it again, okay, But also like a baby

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Speaker 1: crying or something like that, who wants to hear that? Nobody,

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Speaker 1: and that includes people with mesophonia, but that doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: trigger rage in them or mesophonia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, in cases of baby's crying, even

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Speaker 2: if you don't have mesophonia, a lot of times that

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Speaker 2: is coupled with lack of sleep from new parents, and

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Speaker 2: it can get pretty severe. I mean, we were lucky

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Speaker 2: with the sleep situation, but I've heard horror stories of

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Speaker 2: new parents who are getting you know, three hours of

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Speaker 2: sleep a night and a colicky. It's just it's terrible.

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Speaker 2: You know, I feel so much, have so much empathy

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Speaker 2: for those situations. But back to mesophonia, I guess I

396
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Speaker 2: was just sympathizing for a minute. If we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about how many people have this, the Yastrabofs did

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Speaker 2: a I guess, just sort of a a round guess

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Speaker 2: of three point two percent in twenty fourteen, but they

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Speaker 2: based that on people who came in seeking treatment that

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Speaker 2: also usually had tenatus. And obviously, you know we've said

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Speaker 2: this before about lots of things you can't really base

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Speaker 2: a number like that on people who seek help because

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Speaker 2: so many people don't, especially when it's something like this

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Speaker 2: that's underdiagnosed and treated right.

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Speaker 1: So otherre's other like people who've studied it are saying, no,

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Speaker 1: it's more like twenty percent of the entire population, which

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Speaker 1: is that's a lot of people's a lot of mesophonia.

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Speaker 1: They also think that women are overrepresented among people with mesophonia,

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Speaker 1: as much as eighty three percent of people with mesophonia

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Speaker 1: might be women. And then there's one other very important

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Speaker 1: thing that we need to point out. People with mesophonia

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Speaker 1: do not have better or more acute hearing than anybody else.

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Speaker 1: That's not the problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not it.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's a difference in the way their brain

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Speaker 1: is connected, is what it seems like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well we should. I mean, that's a good setup

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Speaker 2: for getting into the brain.

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this for years now.

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Speaker 2: If if you're wondering if they ever stuck somebody into

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Speaker 2: a wonder machine and smack some oatmeal in their ear,

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Speaker 2: then the answer is yes, of course they have. They

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Speaker 2: have done experiments, but as we'll see that, there haven't

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Speaker 2: been a ton of them because it is so new

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Speaker 2: and probably underfunded. But they did put people in an

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Speaker 2: fMRI machine, the Wonder machine, and they found that the

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Speaker 2: interior insular cortex the AIC, which in this makes total sense.

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Speaker 2: It helps integrate sensory data from like organs and stuff

430
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: like that, but it's also associated with the parts of

431
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: the brain that are responsible for emotion, fear, long term memory,

432
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 2: and stuff like that.

433
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: Yes, here's this is where I think the smoking gun is.

434
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: The aoc act too. We're a little early.

435
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: Because well I haven't fired it yet. Okay, I'm about

436
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: too though. The anterior insular cortex is also a major

437
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: component of what's called the salience network, which is the

438
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: region or the network of your brain that takes stimuli

439
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: from the environment, like you said, from even down to

440
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: your internal organs, and sorts through all of it and

441
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: says not important, not important, not important, Oh, that's important,

442
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: and amplifies it up the chain, and it keeps getting

443
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: amplified and passing through more and more filters until it

444
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: becomes the brains awareness or attention becomes focused on it. Right,

445
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: So that salience network is like, that's important. We need

446
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: we need to let the brain's consciousness like in on

447
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: this thing, and now all of a sudden, you're paying

448
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: attention to that stimulus. What they think, what I think

449
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: in particular, is that there's a hyper activity and or

450
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: hyper connectivity within the ai C that takes things that

451
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: other people are able to filter out and turns them

452
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: into a sound that can trigger you emotionally. And it's

453
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: because your salience network is basically supercharged.

454
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: So that would actually back up what they did with

455
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: the studies with the MRI scans, not the fMRI correct.

456
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, where they turned up the medial frontal cortex.

457
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they what they found was the what you

458
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: just said, the medial frontal cortices. If you have mesiphonia,

459
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 2: they have more or myelin, which we've talked about before.

460
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 2: It's a batty substance that insulates the nerve cells. But

461
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: they're saying that the excess of myelin kind of backs

462
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: up the idea of that hyperconnectivity with the anterior insular cortex.

463
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: Boom, the gun has just been fired, is now smoking

464
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: bright red, white and blue smoke.

465
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a nerve gun. Of course, people were you know, you're.

466
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for sure. There's one other thing that seems

467
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: to be a bit of a boondoggle in misophoni or research,

468
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: and that is that there's a theory or I guess

469
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: a school of thought that it's actually triggered by overactive

470
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: mirror neurons in somebody.

471
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: H or old friends, and in particular the.

472
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: Motor cortex that has to do again with orofacial movements,

473
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: that those mirror neurons are hyperactive, and that when you

474
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: see somebody or here's somebody chewing, it triggers those mirror

475
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: neurons and it creates a reaction or response in you

476
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: that you can't control because your mirror neurons have have

477
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: taken over. That seems to be untrue.

478
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: Okay, well, even so, we did an episode about mirror

479
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: neurons many many many years ago that it's still super

480
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: interesting to me. And just the quickest sort of summation

481
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: is the idea of mirror neurons are like when you

482
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: see someone in a football game on TV, like break

483
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 2: their leg in a painful way and you literally feel

484
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: that in your own leg. Yeah, I mean, that's the

485
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: dumbed down version, but that's what we're talking about.

486
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: No, I mean, that's that's a great example. When I

487
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: when I watch sports like I find myself like leaning,

488
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: like if the guy's trying to avoid a tackle, all

489
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: like turn as well. It doesn't help the guy at all,

490
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: But I can't. I can't stop myself because I'll be

491
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: on the treadmill watching like basketball or something, and all

492
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm like off off balance a little

493
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: bit because I'm moving along with the guy who's like

494
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: doing the layup.

495
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: I see people do that when they're gaming, like first

496
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: person games. That's the exact same thing, I think, moving

497
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: their body around in weird ways. It's pretty interesting, like

498
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 2: if you train a camera on somebody gaming. You did

499
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: mention genetics. It may have a genetic component. I think

500
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: they did just an analysis on what's called a gwas

501
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: a gen M wide association study about just rage related mesophonia,

502
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: and they found that it does cluster with PTSD anxiety

503
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: and depression, which indicates it could, you know, have a

504
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: genetic component, right.

505
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: Yes, which makes sense for sure. I didn't see the

506
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: gene that they targeted it to, but I didn't either.

507
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: It does seem to be related genetically. There's also there's

508
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: a researcher from Oxford named Jene Gregory who also suffers

509
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: from mesophonia, and she posits that that mesophonia could be

510
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: like a relic, like an evolutionary relic from back when

511
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: it was advantageous for a group to have a few

512
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: people who responded to sound like way more than other

513
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: people because they essentially served as like alarms for the

514
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: rest of the group.

515
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: All right, that makes sense.

516
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: It's I mean, this is the place that we're at

517
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: in mesophonia research. You can just toss stuff out like

518
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: that and be like yeah, probably.

519
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's also can be comorbid with miso kinesia, and

520
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: that is when you have a mesophonia like response to

521
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: someone's fidgety motions. So I think someone clicking a pin

522
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: can be a mesophonia trigger, but that's also sort of

523
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: a fidgety thing, So that kind of makes sense.

524
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, if you want to empathize with people

525
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: who have mesophonia and miso kinesia, go on to reddit. Actually,

526
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: any any condition that could be debilitating, go on to

527
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: Reddit and look at the reddit board for that condition,

528
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: and your heart will just go out to people. And

529
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: I looked the miso kinesia reddit board and just the

530
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: first few posts are like the language they use, like

531
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: like want to die. It can't live like this. They're

532
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: not they're not they're not talking about self harm. They're

533
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: saying like it's so like like this is just bonkers

534
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: out of control, and they're talking about being in class

535
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: and everyone's just kind of bouncing their knee and they

536
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: like they they're just so overwhelmed by that and unable

537
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: to not pay attention to it that they just feel

538
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: like they're losing their minds and in just the worst way.

539
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: It's really awful, And I'm not overstating the way that

540
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: they describe it at all.

541
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: Sure.

542
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: One thing I did notice though, on the Misokenesia board

543
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: is one poster said sorry, one op said that they

544
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: counteracted the experience by I guess kind of like mirroring

545
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: what the person was doing. So somebody's bouncing their knee,

546
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: they use their hand to kind of keep time with

547
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: the person's knee, and it's so somehow counteracted or short

548
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: circuited the miso kinesia in them.

549
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: Right then, Well, I mean they've said the same thing

550
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: with mesophonia is that sometimes people will make that sound

551
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: themselves to counteract it, and that can help.

552
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: Yes, So if you're ever clicking a pen and your

553
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: coworker stands up and just shouts.

554
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: Click click click click click.

555
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: They probably are having a mesophonic episode, right then, Yeah,

556
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: for sure, and you stop clicking your pen.

557
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: It can you know, it can affect obviously the workplace

558
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: in negative ways, but it can also affect your relationships

559
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: and your your family. It can. It has been described

560
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: as contagious in a way because if you're let's say,

561
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: in a close relationship, maybe like married to somebody or

562
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: coupled up with someone or living with someone with mesophonia,

563
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: you might become very attuned to their trigger sounds. And

564
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: it's not the same as having mesophonia, but it's it

565
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: is contagious in a way in that all of a sudden,

566
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: like if you then were really on the lookout for

567
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: the sound of people, you know, chewing their food because

568
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: of being married to you me that obviously it's not

569
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: as bad for you, but it can get into your

570
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: brain and sort of take over in a way.

571
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't think it's like it could trigger

572
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: mesophony in somebody else. I don't buy that. Well, you've

573
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: just become hyper vigilant on behalf of your spouse because

574
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: you care about them so you could conceivably get angry

575
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: at somebody daring to chew around them because you know

576
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: what it's doing to them. That's what I take that as.

577
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: No, no, no, absolutely, but I think that they say it.

578
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: It can be worse with people that are close to you,

579
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: right than like out in a restaurant with a random stranger.

580
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: You might get more bothered by your your family members,

581
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: your coupled person.

582
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: Yes, if you have mesophonia, usually it's the people who

583
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: are closest to you that can set you off the easiest.

584
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: Right I with your spaghetti and your mouth.

585
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: I've not figured out exactly why. My guess would be

586
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: that they know that you know what they're going through

587
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: and you're still doing it. Maybe you see very thoughtless

588
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: or careless. Yeah, right then that would be That would

589
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: be mine my guess. But there's a huge component of

590
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: this that I think really kind of supports that salience

591
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: network hypothesis of mine, let's hear it, and that is

592
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: that the sounds seem to have also like a personal

593
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: emotional component to them, like the yastrobofs their Their theory

594
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: is that, like the Olympic system, is very much involved,

595
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: which it would explain why emotions there. So if you

596
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: combine the Olympic system with the salience network, the emotions

597
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: you're feeling are like personal. It feels personal to you.

598
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: Hence why you would feel something like outrage or profound

599
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: disgust or something like that. You feel like you're being

600
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: personally attacked.

601
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 2: Right then, Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

602
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, like your brain has told you this is a

603
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: very very important stimulus and you need to respond to

604
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,959
Speaker 1: it in kind. That's that's the salience hypothesis.

605
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: I like it. Can we call it the Josh Clark

606
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: salient hypothesis?

607
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 1: I've been hoping you would say that all episode.

608
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: The j C s h it almost spells Josh, it does?

609
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: Can we rework that?

610
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: Yeah? Can you turn that scene into it?

611
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: Well? Sure?

612
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: Can you tell?

613
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if you knew what you were saying,

614
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: So I was just giving you a backdoor.

615
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: But no, no, I knew it, Josh.

616
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just did it for you. Hey, you may

617
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: have been at one point. You never know, all right,

618
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: So well, let's take a break now and we'll come

619
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: back and talk about what you probably think is coming

620
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: with your myriad forms of CBT behavioral therapies. Right after this.

621
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 3: Stuff, Josh stuff you shut.

622
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: So one of the saddest things about misophonia and misokinesia,

623
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: aside from the fact that people suffer from it, is

624
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: that they're like the treatment landscape is so hit or miss,

625
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: that there's so little widespread information out there among clinicians

626
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: that you very well might go to see a E

627
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: and T or a psychologist or a psychiatrist or even

628
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: like a neurologist that's particularly uninformed. You might basically say,

629
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: this is your problem where your plugs, like just relax,

630
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: go do mindfulness or something like that, and some of

631
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: that stuff can help. But if that's all you're being

632
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: met with, like that's not that's no treatment whatsoever. So

633
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: fortunately there are people who have really started to study

634
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: how to treat it, and one of the things that

635
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: they've discovered is that good old cognitive behavioral therapy CBT

636
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: seems to work for it, at least as far as

637
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: any decent study has shown. It definitely has some effect

638
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: compared to control groups.

639
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a trial in twenty twenty randomized clinical

640
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: trial that found that there was significant improvement in thirty

641
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,919
Speaker 2: seven percent of the group that completed CBT versus zero

642
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: percent for the control group and that a year later,

643
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 2: those thirty seven percent seem to be holding, which is great.

644
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what they call statistically significant.

645
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: I would say. So we also should mention as we're

646
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 2: going through these various treatments, there are good people doing

647
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 2: a lot of great work, but there are also you know,

648
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: just be wary. There are also people online that are

649
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: just lining up to take your money to help you

650
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: with this that may be quacky.

651
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: Yes, So like if somebody has earplugs that the description

652
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: almost makes seem magical, you should steer clear of that.

653
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

654
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: Or if somebody says this supplement or this chrystal or

655
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: this tarot deck is going to help you, it's not.

656
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: So just don't go seek out a neurologist, a neuropsychologist

657
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: or neuropsychiatrist, I should say, and they should be able

658
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: to help you do research yourself and say, hey, I

659
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: want CBT or I want to try something called unified protocol,

660
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: which is called transdiagnostic therapy, meaning that you can use

661
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: it for all sorts of different things that stir up

662
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: strong emotions. It basically likes CBT. It gives you tools

663
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: to identify what triggers your emotional reactions, what you feel

664
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: like when you're having that emotional reaction, to how to

665
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 1: deal when you're having that emotional reaction, and then also

666
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: if you're lucky, how to distance yourself from the emotional

667
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: reaction and the trigger that causes it.

668
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are lots of I feel like

669
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 2: all of these are sort of just a reskinned version

670
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: of the same kind of thing, which is which are

671
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: those therapies identifying mindfulness, recognizing behaviors, learning, you know, one

672
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: thing called cognitive flexibility, like kind of retraining your brain.

673
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 2: The one that's a little different, I think is the

674
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 2: Tenatus Retraining Therapy, the TRT they've been using for misponia,

675
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: it seems like with some pretty good results. It's basically

676
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: sound therapy where you have a wearable device that plays

677
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 2: like a very low level like white noise or pink noise,

678
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 2: whatever your noise of whatever color noise you prefer, I guess,

679
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 2: but just below the volume threshold of that trigger sound.

680
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 2: And the Jastroboffs say that eighty percent of the patients

681
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: that have tried that have had pretty good success.

682
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. The key is you want to gradually increase, like

683
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: the volume of that trigger sound against the background of

684
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: that pink noise so that you can you're basically it's

685
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 1: a type of exposure therapy, which is very controversial with mesophonia. Yeah,

686
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: for sure, a lot of people say, do not try

687
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 1: exposure therapy. That does not work, and actually it makes

688
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: it worse because what you're doing is enraging yourself and

689
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: all you're doing is strengthening that neural pathway that triggers

690
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 1: that rage in the first place. So it's not only

691
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: not helpful, it's actually counterproductive. Other people say, no, no, no.

692
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: You can do certain types of exposure therapy like the

693
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: yastrobots TRT with the pink noise, but if you do

694
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: start to have an emotional response, stop, Like anybody who

695
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: has any understanding there as a healthcare provider of mesophonia

696
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: will tell you that if you have an emotional response

697
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: to mesophonia while you're trying to while you're under undergoing treatment,

698
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: stop the treatment, get away from the sound. That's like

699
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: best practices. If somebody is trying to force you to

700
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: just hang in there through it during disclosure therapy, you're

701
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 1: being treated by a quack and you need to find

702
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: somebody else to help you because they don't understand musophonia.

703
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this one I don't fully understand. This is

704
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: Jane Gregory again from Oxford. She has worked on a

705
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 2: situation where or I guess, a therapy where she tries

706
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: to create a different association with that sound. And she

707
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: did this in one case at least by riding one

708
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 2: of those like an amusement park like Disney World. I guess,

709
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 2: like a dizzy ride, like a spinning teacup ride while listening.

710
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: To what was it in this case, her husband's slurping tea.

711
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Josh eating spaghetti, right, which makes sense in a way,

712
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 2: But then like, wouldn't that just make you dizzy? Wouldn't

713
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: you want to choose something that's not also awful? I

714
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: think that what she loved those rides.

715
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: She must love those rides, And also I think she

716
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: was after making the whole thing silly, So like when

717
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 1: she her husband slurp tea, she would think about spinning

718
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: around in a teacup and and that might kind of

719
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: disarm her rage or something.

720
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 2: Okay, I guess I hear that, and I'm like, those

721
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: are the worst rides because it just makes me sick

722
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: to my stomach.

723
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: So I'm totally with you.

724
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: Maybe the yeah, I get it.

725
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, so that is a weird, weird example. But

726
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: what the basis of that therapy is is that you're

727
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: you're you're listening to the trigger sound while also doing

728
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: something else or learning to associate it with something else

729
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: that's not that horrible emotional reaction.

730
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well that makes sense.

731
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: And then also, Chuck, there's there's self treatment for me

732
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: sophonia that people have discovered along the way, like listen,

733
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: like wearing noise canceling headphones. Yeah, wearing headphones where you're

734
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: listening to pink noise or some kind of noise or music,

735
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: like just putting a barrier between you and any any

736
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: sound that you know might trigger you. And then there's

737
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: there's other techniques too, but they're very sad, like not

738
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: eating with your family because you are probably going to

739
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: get triggered and it's sad, but that's a really effective

740
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: intervention for mesophonia.

741
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a woman named Shalin Hayes Raymond who is

742
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: a co founder of Mesophonia International, and her whole gam

743
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: is like self advocacy, So you know, don't just you know,

744
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: it's okay to tell your family that, hey, can you

745
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: try and avoid these triggering sounds? Can you be aware

746
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 2: of what I'm going through? Can you understand if I

747
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: have to leave the room during like a big family meal.

748
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: Can you go stand the subreddit on mesophonia.

749
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of, but to advocate for yourself also, and

750
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: things like noise canceling headphones like you mentioned, or just

751
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: like getting out of there like you said, like leaving

752
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: the room, because from what I've seen, it calms down

753
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 2: pretty quickly if you can remove yourself from the sound,

754
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 2: you don't stay in that state for you know, hours,

755
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: generally from what I've seen, right, Yes, yeah, it can

756
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 2: pass fairly quickly, So that's the good news.

757
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then also the good news is that there

758
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: are smart people who have begun to study this in

759
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: addition to the yastroboths who are making some headway. So

760
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: hopefully there will be some sort of like verifiable cure

761
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: treatment for it in the not too distant future.

762
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, we're talking about a thing that's just

763
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: been seriously looked at in the last twenty years. You'd

764
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: imagine there'll be a lot of headway made, and I

765
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: think just getting like an episode out here for people

766
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: that maybe have been like poking fun at someone in

767
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: their life, not taking it as seriously, like hopefully this

768
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: will help that, you know.

769
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're the Joyce Cohen's of podcasting. Did you get that?

770
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: I did? I mean that was I don't know. I'm sorry.

771
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: I thought you were talking about the self advocate who's

772
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: Joyce going.

773
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: She's the woman who wrote the twenty eleven New York

774
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: Times article that told everybody who.

775
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: Was that was the other person? I got it. I

776
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: thought you were saying Joyce Brothers who won on.

777
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: What was that show, quiz Quiz Show? It was like

778
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: quizz show. Remember she won like big time on a

779
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: game show, and like you had to pick what topic

780
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: you wanted to be deeply quizzed on, and she chose

781
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: boxing and just wiped the floor with her opponent.

782
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yep, that was on our game show episode. Really,

783
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: I don't remember that that.

784
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: For some reason, that always stuck out to me. Joyce

785
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: Brothers in boxing. It's like kind of cognitive dissonance. That

786
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: just stuck with me. Yeah, totally, you got anything else

787
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: on mesophonia?

788
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: Nope?

789
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: Well, our heart goes out to all of you out

790
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: there listening to us who have misophonia. We hope we

791
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 1: didn't trigger you. We hope we've never triggered you. And

792
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: sorry again about that time with the asmr uh. And

793
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: since I said that it's time for listener mail.

794
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to call this is very interesting Irish famine connection.

795
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 2: Hey guys, listen every day on my drive to work

796
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: in rural Ireland. Luckily an episode is just rt link

797
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: for my forty mile trip on the Selects episode. This

798
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 2: is about an old one from famines in twenty seventeen.

799
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: You did a nice job describing the nature of the

800
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: Irish famine, But rather than bemoan the terrible response of

801
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: the British rulers, I wanted to celebrate the amazing gesture

802
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 2: of the Choctaw Nation of Americans of sorry Native Americans, who,

803
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: upon hearing of the plight of the Irish people during

804
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 2: the famine, gathered up one hundred and seventy dollars at

805
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 2: the time, which was fairly significant money to send over

806
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: for help. This incredible active generosity came from people who

807
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: had only recently themselves suffered terribly during the infamous Trail

808
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 2: of Tears, showing the true nature of them as a people.

809
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: This kindness had never been forgotten, has never been forgotten,

810
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 2: and thankfully, now that Ireland is a country of significant wealth,

811
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: we have been able to give back. There has been

812
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: a spectacular monument erected in honor of the Choctaw Irish connection,

813
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: and also a university scholarship program in and that's program

814
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 2: with two ms and a kN E in Cork where

815
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: members of the Chalcdaw nation can avail of a fully

816
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: paid bed or a master's degree. I guess b ed

817
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 2: is an undergrad. Yeah, and living expenses paid. Also. Wow,

818
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 2: this is something I teach my students in geography classes

819
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: on migration at a high school level, as I think

820
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: it is so important to recognize the and that's recognized

821
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 2: within the incredible human acts that take place in these

822
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: terrible moments. Really enjoy the variety of things you cover.

823
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 2: And thanks for looking beyond the potato in Irish history.

824
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 2: And that is from Bob Grace in County Carlos.

825
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: That's awesome.

826
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Bob, super cool.

827
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wonderful. I had no idea about the scholarship,

828
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: did you. I feel like we I feel like we

829
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: mentioned that in another episode. I don't remember which one.

830
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: Maybe Trail of Tears. Oh really, I don't remember, because yeah,

831
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: it does sound familiar, but I definitely don't remember the

832
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: college scholarship thing. So way to go, Bob.

833
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 2: Well, you know me, I've forgotten anyway, so I'm happy

834
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 2: to relearn it.

835
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: It's awesome. I wish I were you. You could just

836
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: watch movies over and over again.

837
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 2: I'm like that Guy Memento.

838
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Guy Pierce.

839
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

840
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with this, like

841
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: Bob Grace did with a great story, we want to

842
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: hear it. You can send it off via email to

843
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

844
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

845
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

846
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.