Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: The questions ask if movies have women and them, are
Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they
Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeffi Beast start changing it
Speaker 2: with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: Hi, Bechdel Cast listeners, it's us with an exciting live
Speaker 3: show announcement in Los Angeles on December tenth.
Speaker 1: We are covering It's a Wonderful life.
Speaker 3: But is it?
Speaker 1: But is it?
Speaker 3: We'll be examining this.
Speaker 1: And the show is Sunday, December tenth at four pm.
Speaker 1: It's live in LA at Dynasty Typewriter and we're also
Speaker 1: live streaming it, so if you live anywhere else you
Speaker 1: can still see the show.
Speaker 3: We're going to be donating half of the proceeds from
Speaker 3: this show to ANARA and PCRF, which are both organizations
Speaker 3: that are providing aid in Gaza right now. Because Free Palestine, bitch,
Speaker 3: And if you don't feel that way, then you can
Speaker 3: escort your self off our feed exactly. Anyways, live show.
Speaker 1: Once again, it's Sunday, December tenth at four pm live
Speaker 1: in La a Dynasty Typewriter. Also live streams are available,
Speaker 1: so go to link tree slash Bechdel Cast or Dynasty
Speaker 1: typewriter dot com to grab your tickets.
Speaker 3: See you at Dynasty Typewriter December tenth, four pm.
Speaker 1: See you there, the Bechdelcast. Hello and welcome to the
Speaker 1: Bechdel Cast. Uh huh Okay, my name is Caitlin Deronte.
Speaker 3: Why are we being so shy about it? I don't know? Hello,
Speaker 3: excuse me. I guess we're coming off of our horror
Speaker 3: movie air Weekly or our annual horror movie things, so
Speaker 3: we're kind of final girling into the show being like, Hello,
Speaker 3: my name is Jamie Laftus, and this is the Bechdel Cast,
Speaker 3: our intersectional feminist movie podcast where we take a look
Speaker 3: at your face movies using an intersectional feminist lens. Although
Speaker 3: this week I'm excited that we were making history on
Speaker 3: the Bexel Cast by covering our first documentary. We've never
Speaker 3: done this before. I'm super super pumped about it. So,
Speaker 3: but before we start talking about it, let's tell everyone
Speaker 3: what the show is.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 3: Everyone, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Yes, welcome, And our show is called the Bechdel Cast
Speaker 1: because it's loosely based off of the Bechdel Test, which
Speaker 1: we use simply as a jumping off point if you're
Speaker 1: not in the know, it is a media metric created Bible.
Speaker 3: Well, I can I do that this week almost where
Speaker 3: my fun fact is okay, yeah, do it fun fact listeners.
Speaker 3: I do read the iTunes reviews. And some people would
Speaker 3: say that that's emotional self harm, and if so, I
Speaker 3: do it. And I noticed when recently, first of all,
Speaker 3: some of y'all are hurting my feelings, some of y'all
Speaker 3: are making me feel great. And one of y'all made
Speaker 3: me think about this of how we don't often give
Speaker 3: credit to we say you know that it is a
Speaker 3: media metric created by Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel
Speaker 3: Wallace test, that is not quite accurate to history. So
Speaker 3: while we go back to the factory and retool our
Speaker 3: way of saying that sentence, I just wanted to do
Speaker 3: a quick shout out for the benefit of that iTunes reviewer.
Speaker 3: So we usually say is it is a media metric
Speaker 3: created by Alison Bechdel in the eighties in her comic
Speaker 3: strip Dikes to Watch Out for Great Comic Classic Comic
Speaker 3: that was originally intended to point out how infrequently women,
Speaker 3: specifically queer women, speak to each other in any piece
Speaker 3: of media about anything that is not about man explicitly.
Speaker 3: But there I went back and just verified that. So
Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel credits While she was the first person to
Speaker 3: publish the Bechdel Test, it makes sense that it's called
Speaker 3: the Bechdel Test, but it's the idea to her friend
Speaker 3: Liz Wallace, which is why we sometimes call it the
Speaker 3: Bechdel Wallace Test. But she also credits it to Virginia
Speaker 3: Wolf and a quote from A Room of One's Own
Speaker 3: which I have never read, but I just wanted to
Speaker 3: share this quick quote from Virginia Wolf weirdly at the
Speaker 3: beginning of this episode, because Virginia Wolf does pretty clearly
Speaker 3: lay out the Bechdel Test in nineteen twenty nine. She says, quote,
Speaker 3: and I tried to remember any case in the course
Speaker 3: of my reading where two women are represented as friends.
Speaker 3: They are now and then mothers and daughters, but almost
Speaker 3: without exception, they are shown in their relation to men.
Speaker 3: It was strained to think that all the great women
Speaker 3: of fiction were, until Jane Austen's day, not seen by
Speaker 3: the other sex, but seen only in relation to the
Speaker 3: other sex. And how small a part of a women's
Speaker 3: life is that unquote? So obviously, you know, very nineteen
Speaker 3: twenty nine language, But I thought it was interesting we've
Speaker 3: never shouted that out on the show before, that the
Speaker 3: Bechdel Test, while understandably attributed to Alison Bechdel, was a
Speaker 3: group effort over a course of sixty years. And I
Speaker 3: think that's fun.
Speaker 1: As many many things are a collaborative effort.
Speaker 3: It's true and intergenerational collaborative effort. But Caitlyn, all that said,
Speaker 3: what is the Bechdel test?
Speaker 1: Oh? Short, for sure.
Speaker 3: So our version of it is because we've added some
Speaker 3: flair we've contributed, Well, yeah, it continues to be a
Speaker 3: collaborative effort. Our version is do two people of a
Speaker 3: marginalized gender who have names speak to each other about
Speaker 3: something other than a man? And we especially like it
Speaker 3: when it is a kind of narratively impactful conversation and
Speaker 3: not just like throw away dialogue. All that to say,
Speaker 3: it won't really even apply on this episode because we
Speaker 3: are covering a documentary, but it's a good thing. We
Speaker 3: gave a full history of the test we will not
Speaker 3: be using today to get the episode. You're welcome for that,
Speaker 3: And with that, let's make history on the Bechdel Cast
Speaker 3: and discuss not just a documentary, but a really terrific documentary.
Speaker 3: And let's bring in our guest.
Speaker 1: Yes, let's do it. Our guest is a mitchif and
Speaker 1: Nihio advocate, organizer, speaker, activist, artist and writer focusing on
Speaker 1: the lasting damage of residential school system, Indian boarding schools,
Speaker 1: and the sixties scoop on First Nations people. She's the
Speaker 1: founder of tradish Ish. They are the co host of
Speaker 1: Creepy Teepee. It's Essay. Lawrence Welch, Welcome, Hello, and.
Speaker 4: Welcome Ben Shay. Thank you for having me. This is
Speaker 4: so exciting.
Speaker 1: I thank you so much, so excited to talk about
Speaker 1: the documentary from two thousand and nine, Real Engine Again.
Speaker 1: This is our We're making history here because normally we
Speaker 1: do narrative film. But I think this is a great
Speaker 1: way for us to break into documentary.
Speaker 3: I think that this is like us working our way
Speaker 3: out because we on the show always say that we
Speaker 3: will never read a book, but I think that documentary
Speaker 3: we got to be careful. It's a gateway to books.
Speaker 3: It's a gateway drugs to books.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's the lazy person's read, you know,
Speaker 4: like I don't do well with books either, So team,
Speaker 4: no reading right here. I just it needs to be
Speaker 4: super engaging, and I just I have a really hard
Speaker 4: time staying focused saying with pages. So tell me stuff,
Speaker 4: show be things. I'll retain it better. And that's why
Speaker 4: I like documentaries. And I wanted to add too, I
Speaker 4: think that the test does apply to this in some way,
Speaker 4: shape or form. There's a lot of narratives within this
Speaker 4: documentary that kind of showcase how fems were erase secondary. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 4: secondary to basically erased in a lot of cinematic history,
Speaker 4: especially talking about the first people's of this land. So
Speaker 4: go team for sure.
Speaker 3: This documentary. I want to talk about everyone's history with
Speaker 3: it in just a second. It's made. Yeah, came out
Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine, directed by Neil Diamond, Catherine Bainbridge,
Speaker 3: and Jeremiah Hayes. It's wild, how I mean. I've I
Speaker 3: watched the doc twice and it's for a ninety minute
Speaker 3: documentary covers so much.
Speaker 4: So much jam packed.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I say, what is your history with this doc?
Speaker 3: When did you first see it and how did you what?
Speaker 3: We were your feelings on it?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I saw it when it first came out. I
Speaker 4: was it's been along road, which the film will highlight,
Speaker 4: you know, of natives and cinema, But it was so
Speaker 4: amazing to see a Cree person, not unlike myself. Neheoh
Speaker 4: is the actual word for the people, not Cree was
Speaker 4: the name that was given to us by settler colonizers whatever.
Speaker 4: But yeah, we still identify with that name because it's
Speaker 4: how we get recognized. I guess that's a different conversation though,
Speaker 4: But yeah, I saw it, and it's honestly, this movie
Speaker 4: means a lot to me, more than most things. And
Speaker 4: even like you know, thirteen some odd years later, it's
Speaker 4: the movie I recommend for people to have even a
Speaker 4: glimpse into understanding how racism and prejudice started against Native
Speaker 4: people and how narratives, really Hollywood can create a narrative
Speaker 4: that transform, transforms the way people think about an entire
Speaker 4: demographic of people who is, unto itself, completely diverse. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I just from the first moment seeing this, I was
Speaker 4: absolutely enamored by it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so good. It's so good, and it's like
Speaker 3: and it's a road story on top of like it's
Speaker 3: just like, yeah, so wonderful. I hadn't seen this one before.
Speaker 3: I had heard about it for years. I think when
Speaker 3: I first tried to watch it, it wasn't streaming anywhere
Speaker 3: now if you're watching in the US at least, I
Speaker 3: don't know how it will cross over, but it's streaming
Speaker 3: for free on two B right now. And I would
Speaker 3: really recommend if you haven't watched it yet, pause the
Speaker 3: episode and watch the doc. It's so wonderful and yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot,
Speaker 3: and I think that there was other elements of Native
Speaker 3: cinema and like the history of Native cinema that I
Speaker 3: had heard about and knew but didn't have like it
Speaker 3: put fully into context. And this movie is incredibly I mean,
Speaker 3: I know it can't be completely comprehensive in the space
Speaker 3: of ninety minutes, but I really, really really liked it.
Speaker 3: And I also feel like I left with a list
Speaker 3: of movies that I'm really excited to watch. Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: so it was my first time seeing it and I
Speaker 3: really loved it. Caitlyn, what about You?
Speaker 1: Same for me. I hadn't seen it before. It was
Speaker 1: on my list of things to watch, and this episode
Speaker 1: gave me a great excuse to finally see it, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it makes a lot of sense for us,
Speaker 1: even though it is a doc and we normally don't
Speaker 1: cover them on the show because we you know, examine
Speaker 1: narrative film and then discuss the representation therein. This documentary
Speaker 1: also examines media from a representation standpoint, and then it's
Speaker 1: specific to how Native people and cultures are portrayed in Hollywood.
Speaker 1: So it's doing something similar to what we do on
Speaker 1: the show. So I'm really excited to talk about it
Speaker 1: and get into it in more detail.
Speaker 3: It's like this, I mean truly this documentary maybe want
Speaker 3: to maybe want to watch a bunch of movies, which
Speaker 3: is not unusual, but it also is like, oh, I
Speaker 3: also want to read several books, which is scary, scary feeling,
Speaker 3: but so so cool. I mean, I I can't wait
Speaker 3: to sort of keep watching. What is that? I wait,
Speaker 3: I'm I just lost my place in my notes. I
Speaker 3: was thinking of a specific movie that I had not
Speaker 3: heard of before that I was really that I'm really
Speaker 3: excited to watch.
Speaker 1: For me, it was The Fast Runner.
Speaker 3: Yes, that was what I was thinking of, which I
Speaker 3: just had I mean, most or many of the movies
Speaker 3: that they recommend throughout the documentary. I'd heard of it,
Speaker 3: just not seen yet. But the Fast Runner I had
Speaker 3: no idea existed, and it seems unfucking believably good. Like
Speaker 3: I just am really excited to see it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's you know, it's interesting to me because this,
Speaker 4: again is you're witnessing this narrative that Neil Diamond puts
Speaker 4: down of you know, watching movies through an indigenous lens, right,
Speaker 4: and how like I don't know if you guys want
Speaker 4: to just jump into it, but like the thing that
Speaker 4: gets me is like within the opening scenes, there's just
Speaker 4: these kids sitting in a basement watching shoot them Up
Speaker 4: cowboy movies and h and Neil said something along the
Speaker 4: lines of we didn't realize we were the Indians, like
Speaker 4: we were the bad guys. And that's like definitely a
Speaker 4: thing I find for myself as somebody who grew up
Speaker 4: relatively isolated in the mountains of Treaty six Territory in
Speaker 4: so called Ilberta, Canada, that that was the outlet, you know,
Speaker 4: So seeing yourself philified on screen but not even realizing
Speaker 4: that it's the same thing but different, you know, Like
Speaker 4: it was such an interesting experience to grow into myself
Speaker 4: and then just be like, oh, that's absolutely not right,
Speaker 4: and that speaks to a larger narrative, which I'm sure
Speaker 4: we'll talk about today.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, uh, let's take a quick break and then
Speaker 1: we will be right back. So, yeah, let's get into it.
Speaker 1: I will go through a recap as I as I
Speaker 1: always do, just kind of like going through the different beats,
Speaker 1: the points, the eras that this documentary covers. So we
Speaker 1: meet the narrator who is also one of the directors.
Speaker 1: His name is Neil Diamond. And it's not Neil Diamond,
Speaker 1: the musician. It's Neil Diamond, the Cree Canadian filmmaker.
Speaker 3: I was such a dufist and completely forgot there was
Speaker 3: a different Neil Diamond that existed because I was telling
Speaker 3: my boyfriend that. I was like, I watched this incredible documentary.
Speaker 3: It's so good, you have to watch it. It's made
Speaker 3: by this guy named Neil Diamond. He's like, am I
Speaker 3: missing something? As like, what do you mean.
Speaker 1: The musician Neil Diamond.
Speaker 3: The superior Neil Diamond. As far as I'm concerned, because
Speaker 3: I forgot the other one. Fuck it existed.
Speaker 4: You're gonna make You're going to make all like the
Speaker 4: middle aged women really upset rape, saying that.
Speaker 3: Then Neil Hive is gonna come us.
Speaker 1: Okay. So Neil talks about how he was raised on
Speaker 1: a reservation near the Arctic Circle, which was one of
Speaker 1: the most isolated places on Earth. He grew up watching
Speaker 1: movies like you were just talking about essay. He grew
Speaker 1: up watching movies that depicted Native people in often very
Speaker 1: negative ways, and this inspires him to embark on a
Speaker 1: journey from his reservation to Hollywood to examine Hollywood's representation
Speaker 1: of Indians and how it shaped the cultural perception of them,
Speaker 1: and of course Indians in this context referring to Indigits
Speaker 1: and First Nations people who were here pre colonization of
Speaker 1: what became known as North America, specifically the US and Canada.
Speaker 1: Oh okay. So Neil's first stop is at the Black Hills,
Speaker 1: once the domain of Chief Sitting Bowl and Tshunka wheat
Speaker 1: Coo aka Crazy Horse. He goes to the place where
Speaker 1: Crazy Horse outmaneuvered General Custer at the Battle of Little Bighorn,
Speaker 1: which is something that has been depicted in several Hollywood
Speaker 1: movies and which turned Crazy Horse into a legend as
Speaker 1: far as like white America having a better sense of
Speaker 1: who he was.
Speaker 2: That was.
Speaker 3: Yeah. As I was watching the doc, I was trying
Speaker 3: to square with like what I had been taught in
Speaker 3: Massachusetts public schools, like how much history had I actually
Speaker 3: learned and how far away from the truth. And it's
Speaker 3: about as far as you could imagine, which but I
Speaker 3: think Crazy Horse is one of the few indigenous figures
Speaker 3: that I do specifically remember learning about incorrectly. But I
Speaker 3: was like, oh, okay, bad job school, but also.
Speaker 4: Like really good job school, because you know, the erasure
Speaker 4: is part of the narrative that keeps this like American exceptionalism.
Speaker 4: You know, we deserve this land, we came here, we
Speaker 4: fought for it. Yet yea such and so forth, And
Speaker 4: that's clearly displayed in some of the movies that the
Speaker 4: doc outlines that you know, definitely.
Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah, well we'll get to in the in the
Speaker 3: like john Ford section in particular, but it's there's like
Speaker 3: such a great quote that perfectly well we'll get.
Speaker 1: There, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's also a mention of the
Speaker 1: descendants of Crazy Horse and of the warriors who fought
Speaker 1: alongside him present day live in pretty extreme poverty on
Speaker 1: Pine Ridge Reservation. So just kind of like an examination
Speaker 1: of this icon, this legend, and because of systemic racism
Speaker 1: and oppression, the descendants living in poverty.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a system set up by designed dismantle entire nations
Speaker 4: of people is also working and the thing behind that
Speaker 4: that kind of speaks to you know, even with Neil
Speaker 4: going to the Black Hills is interesting for me as
Speaker 4: a Cree person and seeing him as a Cree person.
Speaker 4: You know, we're told certain stories we're not even like
Speaker 4: in school, we weren't even told stories about our own people,
Speaker 4: you know, like we were. This is why this movie
Speaker 4: is so amazing to me, is because it really caters
Speaker 4: to this like like romanticization of like the Great West, right,
Speaker 4: and you know, all of these noble natives, but we
Speaker 4: had so many within our own nations. Like there's so
Speaker 4: many different nations and so of Native people across these lands.
Speaker 4: And the fact that he went to go talk about
Speaker 4: this particular story because that is what the narrative is
Speaker 4: in every single Hollywood movie up and to that point.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm excited to talk with you about that
Speaker 3: because I think that like Neil Diamond being so forward
Speaker 3: about that and being so forward about like being connected
Speaker 3: with his history to an extent, but also have to
Speaker 3: having to like unlearn and relearn in that whole process,
Speaker 3: and also having like this attachment to the media you
Speaker 3: grow up with and like, how do you you know,
Speaker 3: unwire that and rewires? It sounds just like Herculean.
Speaker 1: It's yeah for sure, Oh okay. So the documentary then
Speaker 1: starts to go through era by era how Hollywood represented
Speaker 1: Native people, starting with the silent film era, and while
Speaker 1: that was happy in the late eighteen hundreds, where you know,
Speaker 1: some of the first moving images ever to exist were
Speaker 1: of Native people. While this was happening, the US Army
Speaker 1: open fires on the last free community of Natives in
Speaker 1: revenge for Little Bighorn, and three hundred Lakota people were
Speaker 1: massacred at Wounded NY in eighteen ninety, and this tragedy
Speaker 1: becomes fodder almost for the type of like drama and
Speaker 1: myth and mythology that Hollywood loves to romanticize and make
Speaker 1: movies about. So Neil discusses how Indians, for example, in movies,
Speaker 1: are always shown as expert horseback riders, even though many
Speaker 1: tribes and nations never rode horses, though there are some
Speaker 1: who were expert and are expert horse riders, such as
Speaker 1: as the Crow. And so Neil goes to the Crow
Speaker 1: Agency in Montana and meets a crow stuntman named Rod Ronde,
Speaker 1: who is an expert horseman and one of Hollywood's top
Speaker 1: stunt people.
Speaker 3: And just like the most charismatic person on the face
Speaker 3: of the earth. That's so fucking cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he talks just about how important horses are to
Speaker 1: Crow people. We go back to examining the silent film era.
Speaker 1: Native characters were prominently featured in a lot of Silent
Speaker 1: era movies, often as the hero, and many of those
Speaker 1: films were written and directed by Native filmmakers.
Speaker 3: I genuinely did not know that. I wish I had
Speaker 3: been taught that in fucking film school.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's such a uh, that's a point of like
Speaker 4: contempt for me for sure. You know, you see these
Speaker 4: beautiful silent films that are depicting life and honesty, and
Speaker 4: you see these people within the film, within these silent
Speaker 4: films being authentic, and then all of a sudden, another
Speaker 4: narrative needs to be written to back again the American exceptionalism,
Speaker 4: like some already used that term, but like to be
Speaker 4: like no, no, this is ours, you know, we need yeah,
Speaker 4: this so we can't humanize the people that we need
Speaker 4: to dehumanize to maintain our lie for the lack of a.
Speaker 1: Better term, No, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And it just like felt like such a
Speaker 3: clear I don't know, like it's just such a clear
Speaker 3: example of like media representation being very nonlinear and like,
Speaker 3: I mean, you, fifty years after these early silent films,
Speaker 3: native representation is far worse, and like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: it was fascinating because I want to watch the watch
Speaker 3: the silent films, but also discouraging to you know, just
Speaker 3: see such a clear example of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The movie also mentions a prominent actor of this era.
Speaker 1: His name was Chief Buffalo Child Longlands. He was the
Speaker 1: star of a film called The Silent Enemy, among others,
Speaker 1: and his life ended very tragically. He had disguised his
Speaker 1: racial background. He was Native black and white, and when
Speaker 1: people found out he was part black, he was shunned
Speaker 1: by Hollywood and he died by suicide.
Speaker 3: I had not heard of him before, and that's just
Speaker 3: the intersectional racism in.
Speaker 1: The US is astonishing. Then the documentary examines Hollywood creating
Speaker 1: this magical, mystical idea of what it is to be native,
Speaker 1: and how a lot of people, especially white people, romanticize
Speaker 1: the idea of being native. And Neil tells us about
Speaker 1: this certain type of like summer camp in North America.
Speaker 1: I did not know that these existed, Oh I did,
Speaker 1: It's I yeah, I don't. I just did not know
Speaker 1: about this where it's mostly white kids go and adopt
Speaker 1: this like perceived persona of what a native person is.
Speaker 1: While they're at these camps, they play these like quote
Speaker 1: unquote tribal games. It's all extremely appropriative, and it keeps
Speaker 1: the idea of an Indian as a you know, quote
Speaker 1: unquote noble savage alive and well. And Neil goes to
Speaker 1: one such camp and he wonders if any of these
Speaker 1: kids have ever even met a Native person, or if
Speaker 1: their image and idea of natives only comes from what
Speaker 1: they've seen in movies. And I would guess it's probably
Speaker 1: the latter for most of them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know that lovely Austrian guy, I thank
Speaker 4: you was Austrian. He was like, I basically learned everything
Speaker 4: I needed to know from watching two to three films
Speaker 4: about natives. I was like, oh that he got the
Speaker 4: mentality of the natives through watching those movies, that they're
Speaker 4: just like I understand them. Yeah, they're like these people
Speaker 4: who love their community, but they can be savage when
Speaker 4: they need to or whatever. And it's just like super cool.
Speaker 4: I love this.
Speaker 3: I love this for us And you can really tell
Speaker 3: that that guy thinks he's doing something. Yeah, like thinks
Speaker 3: he's being respectful. So I unfortunately, I never you know,
Speaker 3: I think that because I grew up in Massachusetts. Your trip,
Speaker 3: your like field trip is going to Plymouth Plantation. I
Speaker 3: don't know how or if it has been updated whatsoever
Speaker 3: in the you know, like twenty plus years it's been
Speaker 3: since I took this field trip. But one of the
Speaker 3: places that you're taken is to Camp Squanto, which is
Speaker 3: very much in step. I don't because we were only
Speaker 3: there for a day. I don't. The extremeness that you
Speaker 3: see in the dock was not something that I experienced.
Speaker 3: But I'm sure that that is the model that that's
Speaker 3: built on.
Speaker 4: There's so many too, and like I attribute that fully
Speaker 4: to like the boy Scouts. You know, there's actually so
Speaker 4: like the Kansas City Chiefs. The chiefs are actually named
Speaker 4: after a man who Now I can't remember the name
Speaker 4: of the tribe because I've like blocked this out of
Speaker 4: my brain, but it's like a camp and it's a
Speaker 4: tribe of Indians. I'll probably think of it later on
Speaker 4: as we're talking about something completely different, but basically, it's
Speaker 4: people who dress up and like non natives who dress
Speaker 4: up and wear headdresses and go through all of these
Speaker 4: protocols because they just revere our natives so much, right,
Speaker 4: And it's so is there. I don't know if there's
Speaker 4: a word for it, but like barfinduce is the term
Speaker 4: that I'm going to go for. Yeah, fucking gross, it's gross.
Speaker 4: But it's just like it's like it just turns my
Speaker 4: stomach to see people dressing up and creating this narrative
Speaker 4: of again, like this concept of what they want natives
Speaker 4: to be and they want to play that, you know,
Speaker 4: and it's just so vile, like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, refusing to learn anything about actual Native people and
Speaker 1: culture and just like assuming some stuff and being like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm probably right about that.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean again, you know, like every native is
Speaker 4: a plain's native wearing a headdress in the great Southwest
Speaker 4: of this noble country.
Speaker 3: I know, and to see that like still pretty uncritically
Speaker 3: presented to children who, to your point essay very well
Speaker 3: may have never met a Native child before, and being
Speaker 3: taught that this is what Native culture was, and not
Speaker 3: just that, but the fact that like it felt like
Speaker 3: especially in at the camp where Neil went to and
Speaker 3: I'm sure where I went to on that field trip,
Speaker 3: like you're taught that this is a very respectful thing
Speaker 3: that is being done. And meanwhile they're like this camp
Speaker 3: Squanto exists in the middle of the miles standish you know,
Speaker 3: state forest, and you're like, you know, I'm it's just
Speaker 3: so clear what is happening. But like growing up, you know,
Speaker 3: indoctrinated in that it the amount of unlearning is it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4: But and it's just attaching a name. And that's the
Speaker 4: thing that really gets me. It's like even the history
Speaker 4: of Squanto, you know, the people don't take the time
Speaker 4: to actually understand anything. They just want the culture without
Speaker 4: the struggle, right, absolutely, whatever it's worth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, Let's take a quick break and then we'll
Speaker 1: come back and go through the rest of the film. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we left off talking about out these type of
Speaker 1: summer camp then The doc examines films of like the thirties, forties, fifties,
Speaker 1: where representation of Natives shifts from what it was in
Speaker 1: the Silent era, where the movies where the Natives were
Speaker 1: heroes were not box office successes. Generally, white audiences were
Speaker 1: not interested in those stories. The stories they were interested
Speaker 1: in were westerns where white men playing cowboys were the
Speaker 1: heroes and Natives were portrayed as quote unquote savages, marauders,
Speaker 1: you know, the enemy. So movies like Stagecoach starring John Wayne,
Speaker 1: directed by John Ford.
Speaker 3: Food to both these John's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a movie that was incredibly damaging for Native people,
Speaker 1: but like Hollywood used it as a blueprint more or
Speaker 1: less for what a Western movie should be for years
Speaker 1: and years to come. And so there's a discussion of
Speaker 1: these movies representing Native people as uncivilized, you know, bloodthirsty killers.
Speaker 1: It had people not speaking real languages. Often it was
Speaker 1: English ran backwards. Clothing that the Native characters were wearing
Speaker 1: was extremely inaccurate, not regionally or culturally specific.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I'm interested to talk about the side quest
Speaker 3: that Neil Diamond takes to talk to I think his
Speaker 3: name is Richard LaMotte. The costume designer who is sort
Speaker 3: of tasked with, yeah, with presenting presenting Native people over
Speaker 3: the years and being like, yeah, this is like a
Speaker 3: load of shit. The way that we that sequence was fascinating.
Speaker 4: Again, it comes down to like this fetter cessation of
Speaker 4: the plains India and the Indian and like the last
Speaker 4: real conquest for like America, right, so like this is
Speaker 4: the last true effort towards genocide. Like I mean, we
Speaker 4: still are dealing with an ongoing genocide as Native people.
Speaker 4: You know, racure is still very much a real thing.
Speaker 4: And but I think about, like with some of the
Speaker 4: filming by one of them, John's, both of them, John's
Speaker 4: in the Southwest, I'm like, that's the home of like
Speaker 4: the din people, the Navajos or like you know, Hope people,
Speaker 4: and like they're all wearing headdresses and you know, to
Speaker 4: your point, Caitlin, like it makes me l L because
Speaker 4: there's these elder Navajo people talking about how they didn't
Speaker 4: they would go off script and say things in the movie.
Speaker 4: I like, I like live for this. I'm like, because
Speaker 4: again I don't speak every language, I like barely speak
Speaker 4: three four, but like I barely speak four. I'm really
Speaker 4: trying you guys, but yeah, it's uh, it's one of
Speaker 4: my favorite like delicious nuggets to just think, like in
Speaker 4: some of those movies, how they were responding to these
Speaker 4: white actors that were so serious about their craft.
Speaker 3: That was such a wonderful sequence when yeah, when Neil
Speaker 3: Diamond goes to visit two actors who had been in
Speaker 3: John Wayne movies but had never seen the movies, and
Speaker 3: we're telling him, you know, the behind the scenes details
Speaker 3: of like how poorly they were treated, how dismissively their
Speaker 3: culture was treated, but then translating what the native actors
Speaker 3: were saying, You're a snake crawling in your own shit.
Speaker 4: I love it so much like a sixern.
Speaker 3: And then cut back to the white actor being like, no,
Speaker 3: we will not Yeah.
Speaker 4: You are wrong, We are not great. Can I tell
Speaker 4: you guys a story, like just to kind of a
Speaker 4: side off of that, just so people think I'm a
Speaker 4: really nice person or a main person either way.
Speaker 3: Perfect.
Speaker 4: People ask me all the time, how do you say
Speaker 4: this in your language? Or like how do you how
Speaker 4: do you say that in your language? Like so, how
Speaker 4: do you say hello? Or how do you say the
Speaker 4: color blue? Right? So people will ask me and I'd
Speaker 4: be like I always say like namulia and patakoa, and
Speaker 4: they're like, okay, cool, cool, right, that's how you say hello.
Speaker 4: And then somebody would be like, hey, how do you
Speaker 4: say frog Namulia and pataka wa? Or like how do
Speaker 4: you say thank you? Oh na mulia and patacoa? And
Speaker 4: this is an on running bit I just have for
Speaker 4: myself to bring me joy because I just have a
Speaker 4: feeling that one day one of these like well meaning
Speaker 4: white people will go to like a neheio cree elder
Speaker 4: or like a machif may tea elder and say namulia
Speaker 4: and pataka wa and that translates to that is not
Speaker 4: a potato. And I just really like, I know that
Speaker 4: that elder is gonna laugh, like I know that the
Speaker 4: person they're saying it to you is just gonna laugh.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, this is me too, my part to
Speaker 4: help with language resurgents that that's technically in machif, but
Speaker 4: like machiff is a makeup of like nehioiwin on a
Speaker 4: Shanabic Scottish slang in French, because it's like our people
Speaker 4: were an amalgamation of these fur traders and the indigenous
Speaker 4: people coming together and creating our own language and protocols,
Speaker 4: and it's a beautiful thing to me. But I also
Speaker 4: like the idea of just somebody walking around saying that
Speaker 4: is not a potato.
Speaker 1: It's a great bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's just also like the perfect like a perfect amount
Speaker 3: of disarming as it's.
Speaker 4: Like, I'm not it's not mean, like.
Speaker 3: It's so stupid.
Speaker 4: Language is important, you guys. Yeah, that's a.
Speaker 3: Top shelf bit. That's great.
Speaker 1: Okay. So the documentary is also exploring how in a
Speaker 1: lot of these Westerns from this era of like thirties, forties, fifties,
Speaker 1: you had white actors playing native characters. Often their skin
Speaker 1: was painted.
Speaker 4: Full brown face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: I like when the whites of the eyes are so white.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, my favorite.
Speaker 3: It's it's disgusting. And I also appreciated when someone's like
Speaker 3: it's just like you have to laugh.
Speaker 4: Yeah, You're like, you're like, this is what they did.
Speaker 4: This is the best they could do, and good for them.
Speaker 4: They tried so hard.
Speaker 1: Embarrassing.
Speaker 3: I was on the fact that Clint Eastwood shows up
Speaker 3: in this documentary and like sort of like sir, I.
Speaker 1: Found that surprising, wo, because his politics are.
Speaker 4: I think this is like this, Well, given this is
Speaker 4: thirteen years ago, this is pre Hymn thinking. I think
Speaker 4: there's a certain era in the last decade that we
Speaker 4: can all kind of lean to that allowed all of
Speaker 4: these really cool people to have their really cool opinions
Speaker 4: out loud.
Speaker 3: True, it's true. A lot of people have been really
Speaker 3: laid bare, not gonna lie it was. It is a
Speaker 3: jump scare to see Clint Eastwood in a documentary where
Speaker 3: you're not prepared. I mean, I'm just never prepared to
Speaker 3: see him.
Speaker 1: But right, you also have you know, white characters, cowboys
Speaker 1: killing Native characters being glorified and celebrated in these movies.
Speaker 1: Native women are more or less absent in westerns and
Speaker 1: Hollywood cinema in general, with the exception of the you know,
Speaker 1: young Indigenous princess epitomized by Pocahontas. Then the documentary talks
Speaker 1: about one of Hollywood's most famous Native actors, Ironized Cody,
Speaker 1: who turns out was not Native. His parents were immigrants
Speaker 1: from Sicily, but he adopted a Native persona both on
Speaker 1: and off screen, and lived his entire life like that,
Speaker 1: and adopted Native children as well.
Speaker 4: He was married to a Native woman and had adopted
Speaker 4: her children. I believe I don't know a lot about
Speaker 4: him other than you know, our protocols are really different
Speaker 4: in each community, and so like you know, if he
Speaker 4: was adopted into whatever tribe whatever by those people, those
Speaker 4: are their protocols. That's their sovereignty, sovereigntry, it's their sovereign right. Sorry,
Speaker 4: it's hard for me say that, to break him in
Speaker 4: and adopt him as one of their own. For me,
Speaker 4: I have a really hard time wrapping my head around
Speaker 4: these things, just because a lot of Native people aren't
Speaker 4: given that same proximity. And he was an actor, and
Speaker 4: he was acting Indian. But you know, to be that
Speaker 4: obtuse to believe that you are that. You know, he
Speaker 4: sought out the he sought out the trauma as much
Speaker 4: as he sought out the victories that he received in
Speaker 4: his career. I was actually just in la and I
Speaker 4: went to the Hollywood Forever Cemetery and I saw that
Speaker 4: he was buried there, and I was just not, Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's a point of anger for me personally, because while
Speaker 4: I want to respect the protocols of the people that
Speaker 4: may have adopted him in or believe him to be
Speaker 4: one of them, his son included who's featured in the documentary.
Speaker 4: It's something that you know, is a very nuanced topic
Speaker 4: when it comes to cultural protocols and who is an
Speaker 4: indigenous based on our individual communities and our sovereignty. So
Speaker 4: but I still don't like him. So I just you know,
Speaker 4: that's my prerogative. And I might get hate for that
Speaker 4: from some people, but I don't really care about that
Speaker 4: because I'm just like super frustrated the fact that it
Speaker 4: does still take away opportunities from people. And he also
Speaker 4: catered to the fetishization and the romance cessation of this
Speaker 4: specific type of Indian And I mean, I understand it
Speaker 4: certain eras in history of this nation that Italian Americans
Speaker 4: were treated very poorly, but they got Columbus Day.
Speaker 5: So it's like you, I think it's like you can
Speaker 5: hold the discrimination that he experienced as a Sicilian and
Speaker 5: be like it doesn't make anything he did afterwards.
Speaker 3: Like especially because to your to your point essay, like
Speaker 3: I think one of the at least for like my parents' generation,
Speaker 3: one of the most you know, iconically false images of
Speaker 3: indigenous people they have is Ironized Cody, the single tier.
Speaker 4: Commercial And I mean I cry every time I see
Speaker 4: someone litter, so.
Speaker 3: Like, oh my fucking like getting into twenty thousand stereotypes
Speaker 3: all at once, and then on top of that, for
Speaker 3: the actor to have not been native at all, Like.
Speaker 4: It's a bit of a gut punch. But again, like
Speaker 4: that's the thing with like being native and being from
Speaker 4: particular nations. You know, we have our own protocols when
Speaker 4: it comes to adoption or recognition. And I mean, my
Speaker 4: people didn't adopt him, so I don't really like I
Speaker 4: still get to have my my free space to be like, well,
Speaker 4: I believe in their sovereignty, but I respect native protocol
Speaker 4: and native law. I don't respect people who take advantage
Speaker 4: of it. Put it that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's very.
Speaker 4: Fair, especially for monetary purposes. And yeah, the fact that
Speaker 4: in the documentary they even say that, you know, in
Speaker 4: his home it was all just pictures of him dressed
Speaker 4: up as an Indian and watching his own films, and
Speaker 4: like that's a certain type of narcissist and like yeah,
Speaker 4: and like that's to the level of like that's that
Speaker 4: I think there might be like I'm not diagnosing, but
Speaker 4: there might be some like mental health needs that aren't
Speaker 4: being met there either. When you want to believe that's
Speaker 4: so bad that you surround yourself by it, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and we it started to feel I
Speaker 3: don't know. I was reading his he passed in ninety nine, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I just wanted to read how he was represented
Speaker 3: in you know, big public. What's the article they write
Speaker 3: when you die?
Speaker 4: Obituary?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. Anyways, fuck the New York Times. But
Speaker 3: the New York Times wrote what felt like kind of
Speaker 3: a shady headline ironized code ninety four an actor and
Speaker 3: tearful anti littering icon So no mention of indigenous lineage,
Speaker 3: because that was not true. I don't know that was Yeah,
Speaker 3: I did not know.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 3: I knew his again. I think like speaks to why
Speaker 3: this documentary is so valuable, Like I knew his image
Speaker 3: and I didn't know that story.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, speaking of non native people, appropriate iconography and culture,
Speaker 1: perfect transition, Thank you so much. The documentary then moves
Speaker 1: into the nineteen sixties and seventies, where the idea of
Speaker 1: Native people became a symbol in the hippie movement, where
Speaker 1: there was lots of appropriation by mostly white people dressing
Speaker 1: like Native people, adopting the kind of like perceived free
Speaker 1: spirit quote unquote mentality, but of course doing all of
Speaker 1: that very inaccurately. And then also around this time, some
Speaker 1: movies that were coming out seemed to be more sympathetic
Speaker 1: to the plight of the Native people. In some movies
Speaker 1: we see Indians fight back against injustice, which was also
Speaker 1: happening in the real world. Where at Wounded KNY in
Speaker 1: nineteen seven three, the American Indian Movement faced off against
Speaker 1: the FBI and help came from an unexpected source, Hollywood.
Speaker 1: And then Neil meets Sashine Little Feather. We hear the
Speaker 1: story of how Marlon Brando arranged to have her accept
Speaker 1: his Academy Award for The Godfather as a statement to say,
Speaker 1: look at all the harm Hollywood has done against Native people.
Speaker 1: And so Sashine received this award on stage, she was
Speaker 1: planning to give a longer speech. The producer of the
Speaker 1: Academy Awards prohibited it and said, like, if you go,
Speaker 1: if you talk for longer than a minute, you will
Speaker 1: be arrested and taken away in handcuffs.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: So fun fact about that is it took years, years
Speaker 4: and years, decades for Sashin to be apologized to for
Speaker 4: being put in that situation. The amount of hate that
Speaker 4: that woman received in her years of life is astronomically high,
Speaker 4: and I couldn't imagine having to carry that for so long.
Speaker 4: But the rumor is that John Wayne was so pissed
Speaker 4: off when she was up there that he went to
Speaker 4: rush the stage and people had to hold him back.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I also read that, which is just like,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's jarring, you know. And the thing is, she did
Speaker 4: refuse the award on behalf of Marlon Brando. That's the
Speaker 4: other side of things, right, So it's such an insult
Speaker 4: to this very prestigious community of Hollywood, you know, actors
Speaker 4: and elitists.
Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's it's fucking disgusting. Though I don't
Speaker 3: know everything I've heard about John I had no attachment
Speaker 3: to John Wayne whatsoever, because I think that was one
Speaker 3: of the rare points my parents were like, no, these
Speaker 3: movies don't just fucking suck. They're also really boring and
Speaker 3: we're not watching them. But I mean, just everything attached
Speaker 3: to his image feels entrenched in hatred and violence, like
Speaker 3: just a really vile icon.
Speaker 4: Even the clip that they showed of one of the
Speaker 4: movies and he refers to a man and like, I
Speaker 4: don't even repeat it because it's so vulgar, but like
Speaker 4: he he refers to another brown man as a blanket head,
Speaker 4: like it just made it makes me sick, like you know,
Speaker 4: and I'm just like, and this was this was normal?
Speaker 4: Like when did this? When was this normal? Like why
Speaker 4: is this normal? And again it was vilifying into humanizing
Speaker 4: entire demographics of people to ensure that white Americans were
Speaker 4: deserving of this.
Speaker 3: Land absolutely vile, fucking gross, and then seeing the I
Speaker 3: thought it was really smart in that it just makes
Speaker 3: this community look so foolish. When Neil Diamond stops off
Speaker 3: at like whatever the John Wayne fan club, oh group,
Speaker 3: because there's like all the userstic old men being like
Speaker 3: there's no such thing as a bad John Wait, You're like,
Speaker 3: oh my god.
Speaker 4: And they're all doing their impression and the walk, and
Speaker 4: I'm just like like, if that's your hero, like I'm losers.
Speaker 3: It really is, like it was a really spectacular display
Speaker 3: of fucking losers with no critical thinking skills.
Speaker 4: So though I did really enjoy when Neil like just
Speaker 4: real hard cut for this documentary, When Neil Diamond was like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll take the draw with the fastest shooter and he's
Speaker 4: like count to four and Neil just had four. I'm like,
Speaker 4: that's my guy right there.
Speaker 3: He's not going rocks. I really. I just love when like,
Speaker 3: communities that are so removed for reality are I'm just like,
Speaker 3: I'm not even going to provoke them. Let's just let
Speaker 3: them talk and they will incriminate themselves just by being themselves.
Speaker 3: Gross gross, gross loser shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, So also around this time in history, the
Speaker 1: documentary examined that some movies portray Native characters as being
Speaker 1: more multi dimensional than they had been previously represented. Some
Speaker 1: of them even start to dismantle some of the stereotypes.
Speaker 1: Some of them show the humor of Native people. Some
Speaker 1: examples include Will Sampson as the character of Chief in
Speaker 1: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Chief Dan George in
Speaker 1: The Outlaw Josie Wales. There's discussion of how humor kept
Speaker 1: Indians alive, and you know, just levity and being able
Speaker 1: to laugh and experience joy that help them keep going.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's honestly one thing that I think is synonymous
Speaker 4: with Again, you know, I don't know everything about every
Speaker 4: Native nation on these lands. But one thing I know
Speaker 4: that brings us all together is laughing. And there's no
Speaker 4: better sound than making an auntie or an uncle just
Speaker 4: gut laugh.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: And that's what we strive to do. It's just tease
Speaker 4: and make fun and all of that and finding humor
Speaker 4: and things is like honestly paramount to our thrival as people.
Speaker 4: It's the one thing that's pulled us out of the
Speaker 4: darkest times, you know, and seeing that conveyed on screen
Speaker 4: is such an incredible thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really loved I'd seen his the set that
Speaker 3: they show of Charlie Hills from the seventies at the beginning.
Speaker 3: I'd seen it before, and like, I just I really,
Speaker 3: he's so cool. And it also it like is feels
Speaker 3: like demonstrative of all of this prejudice against Native people
Speaker 3: that he didn't have a fucking gigantic career and like
Speaker 3: it wasn't you know, like Eddie Murphy, like Steve Martin
Speaker 3: Lovel's of famous because he's so talented, but just like
Speaker 3: the you of his work and then also in like
Speaker 3: clips of him at the time throughout or just like
Speaker 3: he's just so funny. He's such a good comic.
Speaker 4: And it's it feels gentle too. Like that's the other
Speaker 4: thing too, it's like gentle humor where it's like silly
Speaker 4: but also like a little like pokey. But still you
Speaker 4: know it's in jest. It's good, like it's not you know,
Speaker 4: I think that's special. Wasn't it on the Richard Pryor
Speaker 4: Show or something?
Speaker 3: I believe?
Speaker 4: So, yeah, yeah, he gave him that space to be
Speaker 4: able to come and do that. I love that so much.
Speaker 3: I thought, yeah, God, I want to learn more about Charliehill.
Speaker 3: But yeah he did. He Richard Pryor sort of put
Speaker 3: him on for the first time, and then he went
Speaker 3: on to do SATs on Carson and then Letterman and like,
Speaker 3: but Richard Pryor got and started, which I was like,
Speaker 3: fuck yeah, Richard.
Speaker 1: Love it. Thanks. Then the documentary is like, now it's
Speaker 1: time to talk about Dances with Wolves.
Speaker 3: Come to to the table. Children. I still have not
Speaker 3: seen Dances with Wolves.
Speaker 4: You only need to see it for the incredible force
Speaker 4: that is Graham Green, absolute childhood hero. He's touched every
Speaker 4: level of entertainment that I enjoy. He's hosted like Cold
Speaker 4: Case File shows like he's done all sorts of stuff,
Speaker 4: and I'm just like, I could just listen to that
Speaker 4: man talk forever and also look at him because he's
Speaker 4: a cutie.
Speaker 3: He's so damn handsome, relious. He's real, he's real handsome. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Dove Charger. I think I first saw Graham Green and
Speaker 3: die Hard with a vengeance question Mark.
Speaker 1: Oh so pride that you have seen that movie, Jamie.
Speaker 3: I think it was on TNT and I was sick
Speaker 3: or something. I don't know how else Diehard this is happening,
Speaker 3: but that was that was my intro to Green.
Speaker 4: Oh so good? Yeah, no, that is it's for Dances
Speaker 4: as Wolves, like definitely worth the Graham greenism so there
Speaker 4: at his facial acting and just how talented he is.
Speaker 1: The doc talks about how this was a movie told
Speaker 1: from a white lens about a white man, where Native
Speaker 1: characters are still you know, mostly like periphery backdrop characters,
Speaker 1: but those characters being more nuanced and fleshed out than
Speaker 1: had previously been seen in Hollywood, and again calling particular
Speaker 1: attention to Graham Green's performance, and because Dances with Wolves
Speaker 1: was a box office success, from that came similar movies
Speaker 1: that kind of ushered in more positive representation of Indigenous
Speaker 1: people on screen, followed by a renaissance where the voices
Speaker 1: of Native filmmakers and artists were finally allowed to be
Speaker 1: seen and heard in Hollywood. So this is where you
Speaker 1: have movies like Smoke Signals, directed by Chris Ayre. We
Speaker 1: covered it on the podcast Not Long Ago. And then
Speaker 1: Neil Diamond arrives in Hollywood. He meets with actor Adam Beach,
Speaker 1: who was one of the stars of Smoke Signals.
Speaker 3: What a fun final destination too, right, And then I
Speaker 3: went to Adam Beach's house, right, Hell, yeah, that sounds.
Speaker 4: Great, Like just like, and I can tell you the future,
Speaker 4: you will be slipknot in the really really bad Suicide
Speaker 4: Squad movie for five seconds.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that was him.
Speaker 4: No. I was so bummed because like he hit a
Speaker 4: woman in that and I was like, ah, we can't
Speaker 4: have anything. Like. I was just so upset.
Speaker 3: I didn't know that was him. Oh no, it was
Speaker 3: my god. I still haven't seen the Power of the Dog,
Speaker 3: but I know that was that the last big thing
Speaker 3: he was in. I still haven't seen it. I'm bad
Speaker 3: at watching movies, So you guys.
Speaker 1: It's okay. And then Neil Diamond returns to Igluluk in
Speaker 1: Northern Canada, talks about a revolutionary Inuit movie called The
Speaker 1: Fast Runner from two thousand and one, which was very
Speaker 1: much a Native movie told from a Native perspective. Neil
Speaker 1: meets with the director, Zacharias Kunik, and there's a discussion
Speaker 1: about how that movie ushered in a new wave of
Speaker 1: film where the gaze and perspective was fully indigenous. And
Speaker 1: that's pretty much where the movie ends, where it's just
Speaker 1: basically ending on a positive note of like things are
Speaker 1: looking up and representation continues to be more and more
Speaker 1: meaningful and prevalent and positive and.
Speaker 3: The last I mean. According to scholarly journal Wikipedia, Neil
Speaker 3: Diamond and Zacharias Kunuk hit it off to the extent
Speaker 3: that I'm like, I don't know if it's going to happen,
Speaker 3: because it says as of April twenty eleven, Diamond is
Speaker 3: developing a project with Inuit filmmaker Zacharias Kanok about the
Speaker 3: eighteenth century conflict between create an Inuit which lasted almost
Speaker 3: a century, which I hope comes out someday. I would
Speaker 3: really like to see that. Yeah, But I like that
Speaker 3: they connected and are collaborating.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that also like speaks to something that you know,
Speaker 4: as Native people, like we probably hear more often than not,
Speaker 4: like with when it comes to war or like taking
Speaker 4: the land. Right when people were coming here that weren't
Speaker 4: from these lands, It's like, well, the Native people fought
Speaker 4: with each other. I'm like, yeah, we did, Like we
Speaker 4: weren't these like peaceful beings just wandering around, you know,
Speaker 4: doing whatever. But I really appreciate that, you know, even
Speaker 4: the stories of our nations are being shared to where
Speaker 4: we are now. Like you know, I have a cousin
Speaker 4: who's Blackfoot and Korean Blackfoot. We had a few battles
Speaker 4: kick their one time, real good. But like, you know,
Speaker 4: other than that, I'm like, it's like these these are
Speaker 4: formative to our relationships now. And that also draws a
Speaker 4: point for me that I kind of wanted to bring
Speaker 4: up today, is I love history. I love history of
Speaker 4: Native people. I love people understand I love non natives
Speaker 4: and natives of course, learning the history of these lands
Speaker 4: and how the people interact with them. But I crave
Speaker 4: and pine for contemporary cinema. I'm so tired of the
Speaker 4: rhetoric of like natives as a thing of the past,
Speaker 4: like I have not yet seen Killers of the Flower Moon.
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm going to see it. I'm
Speaker 4: so glad that the Osage had to say in that movie,
Speaker 4: and from what I've read, you know, like the actors
Speaker 4: did such a phenomenal job in it, and it is
Speaker 4: what it was supposed to be for a movie directed
Speaker 4: by Scorsese. That that being said, it's a history lesson.
Speaker 4: Where's the modern day lesson of why Native people or
Speaker 4: in the situations therein? Why are they still living on
Speaker 4: reservations or reserves? Why are they still experiencing poverty? Why
Speaker 4: is there a reservation in Canada that's decades in of
Speaker 4: not having clean water? You know, like there needs to
Speaker 4: be something modern to tell our story, not.
Speaker 3: Just the history, which seems like is being done more
Speaker 3: in the TV space absolutely then in film. Right now,
Speaker 3: it would be like that should be represented across mediums.
Speaker 3: I think that there is. I don't remember if it
Speaker 3: was like Chris Ayir talking about his own movie, but
Speaker 3: like Smoke Signals being successful felt like such a huge
Speaker 3: deal because there were so few movies about contemporary Native
Speaker 3: life that actually became national successes.
Speaker 1: There's a chunk in the documentary where because again it's
Speaker 1: going through sort of like decade by decade of like
Speaker 1: here were the trends of Native representation in Hollywood in
Speaker 1: each decade there's voiceover where it's like in the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: Westerns went out of style, and so it wasn't until
Speaker 1: the nineties again when with Dances of Wolves the Western
Speaker 1: came back, and it's just like, oh, Hollywood just couldn't
Speaker 1: think of any other genres that Native people could be
Speaker 1: in because Westerns went out of style for a decade
Speaker 1: or so that they just Native people were not included
Speaker 1: in like Hollywood movies, and it's like.
Speaker 3: The eighties, you're just like what I was.
Speaker 4: Born in the I was born in the eighties, and
Speaker 4: Natives were still there in the eighties.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is actually something I had to unlearn
Speaker 1: because every Native person I saw depicted in a movie,
Speaker 1: like when I was watching them as a kid, even
Speaker 1: into my teen years and stuff like that were movies
Speaker 1: either about first contact, the settlers coming in making first contact,
Speaker 1: or like westward expansion times. Either way, it was like
Speaker 1: centuries ago, nothing in the modern era, which like does
Speaker 1: so much to erase Native people from the modern world
Speaker 1: to the point where I was like, Native people exist
Speaker 1: alongside me right now, and like for a long time,
Speaker 1: like growing up in a very like homogeneous white, like
Speaker 1: conservative small town area not being around or seeing any
Speaker 1: Native people, I was like, Oh, they must be a
Speaker 1: thing of the past.
Speaker 3: Which, weirdly, Jim Jarmush made that point, Okay, I was like,
Speaker 3: why is Jim Jarmush here? It wasn't clear on it,
Speaker 3: but I was like, I like what he's saying. But
Speaker 3: who invited him?
Speaker 4: He just shows up? He's just like he's.
Speaker 3: Ready, did he just wander in? Like what? But he
Speaker 3: had like a kind of a good quote that when
Speaker 3: he was but he was talking about the coming out
Speaker 3: of the Silent era of how particularly once native directors, writers,
Speaker 3: actors who were portraying their own stories, once that was
Speaker 3: phased out pretty effectively during the Great Depression, that there
Speaker 3: was this distinct sort of cultural shift moving into the
Speaker 3: John Wayne years of portraying Native people as if they
Speaker 3: no longer existed, and that that was like a distinct moment.
Speaker 4: Or if they were in the way, they were in
Speaker 4: the way of progression. And that's really like what I
Speaker 4: think most of the John Wayne era movies just did
Speaker 4: or they had to fulfill a trope. That's the other thing,
Speaker 4: you know that really gets me is like we can
Speaker 4: kind of dissect some of these two, but like everything
Speaker 4: from Pocahontas to like billy Jack. Still have such a
Speaker 4: week I have, like I have such a soft spot
Speaker 4: for that movie, and I need.
Speaker 3: Someone to explain billy Jack to me.
Speaker 4: It's a cool kung fu Indian. Okay, where's some really
Speaker 4: big hat with a great cat band and that's all
Speaker 4: you need to know.
Speaker 3: I don't understand billy Jack conceptually.
Speaker 4: But it's I don't know why I love that movie
Speaker 4: so much. I'm just like, it's because it's so terrible
Speaker 4: that I'm like, Okay, this can pass, Like this passes
Speaker 4: my checklist of like just ridiculousness. But the thing is
Speaker 4: natives always have to fulfill a trope, right because if
Speaker 4: we aren't performing the way that people want us to perform, act,
Speaker 4: look speak And that even goes back to like they
Speaker 4: talked about the Tanto speech like talk them speech that
Speaker 4: stuff like I still can't remember. It's like on the
Speaker 4: tip of my Miko s tribe. If y'all want to
Speaker 4: do a Google search at some point, yeah, it's run
Speaker 4: by like it's an offshoot of the Boy Scouts and
Speaker 4: they actually have a podcast called like Talcum or something
Speaker 4: like that where it's like we make them talk like
Speaker 4: they do that type of garbage, Like that type of
Speaker 4: speech is like if we're not fulfilling these compartments of
Speaker 4: what people think natives should be, and it's like so
Speaker 4: difficult to differentiate tribes or it's so difficult to whatever.
Speaker 4: We don't exist to you, right, And that's the part
Speaker 4: that makes me really sad, is like it's too much work,
Speaker 4: I think part of it. And not to get super
Speaker 4: deep on y'all today, but like the acknowledgment by Hollywood,
Speaker 4: that's why all of the movies made by white directors
Speaker 4: are still things of the past, is because the moment
Speaker 4: that that acknowledgment happens, that we were genocided, continued to
Speaker 4: be victims of genocide, modern day genocide, with erasure and
Speaker 4: disclusion in so many things. The moment that any powerful entity,
Speaker 4: even Hollywood, acknowledges who we are as people outside of
Speaker 4: their lens is that we exist today, acknowledges all the
Speaker 4: atrocities they committed against us, and then completely severs their
Speaker 4: their self appointed right to land. What do they call it? Resources?
Speaker 4: Like people? Like again people, and that goes back to
Speaker 4: even like Pocahontas, Like you know, her name wasn't even Pocahontas.
Speaker 4: It was like as starts with the ms like Matoka, Makota,
Speaker 4: like I can't say again, I don't speak all the
Speaker 4: other languages, but you know, it's it's expected that she
Speaker 4: was between nine and eleven years old. She died twenty one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like after being essentially kidnapped like yes.
Speaker 4: And human trafficked, you know, Like but again this concept
Speaker 4: I'll never forget actually talking about cinema with my Like
Speaker 4: my dad he had picked me up after your's personal
Speaker 4: stuf after a visitation right with my mom when I
Speaker 4: was a kid. She lived in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and
Speaker 4: we lived in Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada. And my
Speaker 4: dad had picked me up and he took me to
Speaker 4: what task go in? Also crea name there you go.
Speaker 4: He took me to Task go in after he picked
Speaker 4: me up to go take me to the movies because
Speaker 4: like I always had a hard time leaving my mom's
Speaker 4: and it was always very interesting dynamic growing up. But
Speaker 4: we went to go see Poconnas. And I will tell
Speaker 4: you my dad was like a BFI, which I actually
Speaker 4: call a big fucking Indian. Like he was just big
Speaker 4: and brown and he was when you got a BFI angry.
Speaker 4: It was hilarious. But he he was so mad. He
Speaker 4: was mad. He's like, she they made it seem like
Speaker 4: she was a trader to the people, and they made
Speaker 4: her sexy and all of these things, and he was
Speaker 4: all upset about it. And I'm just like, go home
Speaker 4: and mad. Did I get a lecture on the way home?
Speaker 4: Like not to be like that? Wow, it was pretty surreal.
Speaker 3: That's fine. I'm twelve, Like, but I mean, I I
Speaker 3: that movie. God, that movie came out when I think
Speaker 3: I was like two or three years old, with the
Speaker 3: first movie I remember seeing, and I was fucking obsessed
Speaker 3: with it, and it like in a formative way that
Speaker 3: like certainly was not challenged in the way that I
Speaker 3: was schooled or grew up. I didn't grow up knowing
Speaker 3: Native kids or Native families. And that movie. I think
Speaker 3: that that movie, I think it's interesting. It seems like
Speaker 3: every generation there is a hugely successful movie that wildly
Speaker 3: misrepresents and insults Native history that has a huge, huge
Speaker 3: impact on just media in general, and Pocahontas was certainly
Speaker 3: that movie for me. And so then when I think
Speaker 3: I was in high school, when I had a great
Speaker 3: history teacher who sort of spoke to all of the
Speaker 3: wild historical inaccuracies that are presented in at that point
Speaker 3: extremely famous movie, that was sort of my first indication
Speaker 3: that you know, this story that I literally was like
Speaker 3: one of my first conscious memories was completely false and
Speaker 3: not just and falls in a dangerous way.
Speaker 4: There's like a I think there's a level of discomfort
Speaker 4: too with again, like these these movies being portrayed the
Speaker 4: way that people want us to be or want to
Speaker 4: see us as natives. And I have a lot of
Speaker 4: empathy considering the things I've experienced in my life, but
Speaker 4: one of them is like I can't imagine what it
Speaker 4: feels like to know that everything you believed is bullshit.
Speaker 4: And that must be really difficult because you're like, wow,
Speaker 4: like starting from ground zero to learn things. And while
Speaker 4: it's a super beautiful process, there's a lot of people
Speaker 4: that get stunted in that and decide that they don't
Speaker 4: want to actually put in work or listen or change
Speaker 4: that narrative shifted even a little bit in their brains
Speaker 4: because there's discomfort associated with that and the discomfort that
Speaker 4: people feel from realizing that. And again I'll just talk about.
Speaker 4: What we're talking about is movies that the way that
Speaker 4: natives have been betrayed is not true or not necessarily true.
Speaker 4: Like it's just a fragment of the discomfort we have
Speaker 4: felt as people since the onset of colonization. So like,
Speaker 4: I mean not that you know, tit for tad. I
Speaker 4: would never wish real negative things on anybody because I
Speaker 4: don't want to put that out into the universe. But
Speaker 4: what I would say is with discomfort comes growth, right,
Speaker 4: and so like reevaluating our lens, no pun intended, as
Speaker 4: we see people through this like talking box, like there's
Speaker 4: my Indians speak for the day talking box Like so
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be I'm gonna be blacklisted for that one.
Speaker 4: But like, but no, like through any talking box, whether
Speaker 4: it be your phone, whether it be your TV, whether
Speaker 4: it be your computer, how we see things portrayed is
Speaker 4: somebody's narrative. If they haven't experienced it, how genuine can
Speaker 4: it be? You know? And so that's why I'm so
Speaker 4: glad with this, like again regaissance that they're talking about
Speaker 4: thirteen years ago. At the end of this documentary, we're
Speaker 4: seeing it happen slowly but surely, Like a great film
Speaker 4: came out recently called Slashback, and I'm obsessed with it.
Speaker 4: I will watch that movie like so often because it
Speaker 4: touches on everything that I would want it to touch on.
Speaker 4: And I'm not like a knook. I'm not from there.
Speaker 4: I don't experience those things. But to see like syllabics
Speaker 4: and to see language and to see face markings, it
Speaker 4: all like just makes sense to me, Like they went
Speaker 4: to that village and they taught kids how to act.
Speaker 4: Like that's so great, you know. I'm so glad that
Speaker 4: things like this are happening now that we get to
Speaker 4: tell authentic versions of ourselves. And it might make people uncomfortable,
Speaker 4: they might not understand it, but that's okay too, because
Speaker 4: again it doesn't have to be for everyone. But it's
Speaker 4: also going back to what I said, like there's going
Speaker 4: to be discomfort and knowing the things that you believe
Speaker 4: to be true.
Speaker 1: Aren't and I mean speaking more to that. This episode
Speaker 1: is coming out the week of Thanksgiving, if not on
Speaker 1: the day, and the narrative that I learned in history
Speaker 1: class in elementary school about what Thanksgiving was just being
Speaker 1: so bogus and so rewritten to favor the colonizer's side
Speaker 1: of the story and to say, oh, no, there wasn't
Speaker 1: a genocide. It was us all getting along and that's
Speaker 1: there was a feast and it was nice.
Speaker 4: But then the Indians turned on us.
Speaker 3: Right, literally what I learned and right that myth includes
Speaker 3: like five different popular stereotypes around Native people, Like in
Speaker 3: one story that a lot of kids learn when they're
Speaker 3: two three years old, it's fucking ridiculous, And I like,
Speaker 3: just like conditions you into a colonizer mindset when you're
Speaker 3: too young to even realize what that is or what
Speaker 3: that means. And I feel it is like especially because
Speaker 3: the I mean, the Internet is fucking evil, has great
Speaker 3: potential for you know, it like has surely ruined our
Speaker 3: mental health forever. However, it is like I feel like
Speaker 3: speaking to your point essay about like it's like your
Speaker 3: responsive I don't know, like if if you were brought
Speaker 3: up with a colonizer mindset, you have the tools to
Speaker 3: unlearn it in a way that like no other generation
Speaker 3: or point in history that has it been more true
Speaker 3: that you have the tools to be able to unlearn it.
Speaker 3: And it's I feel like it's like your responsibility to
Speaker 3: do it, even even if it's uncomfortable. Who gives a shit?
Speaker 4: Like it's and I think too. And one of the
Speaker 4: things that I've come up against in a lot of
Speaker 4: my like whether I'm doing like community work or supporting
Speaker 4: people or I don't know, like get it. Like I
Speaker 4: hate to say what I do is work because like
Speaker 4: I don't consider it work. But in education, like I
Speaker 4: feel really bad sometimes when people are like, you know,
Speaker 4: I want to talk to Native people, I want to
Speaker 4: find things out, and they're very apprehensive to talk to me.
Speaker 4: I'm like, well, rightfully, so, you know. But at the
Speaker 4: same time, I'm like, there's got to be a level
Speaker 4: of like, I don't mind talking to people about my experiences.
Speaker 4: I can only speak to my own experiences. And that's why,
Speaker 4: you know, I specialize in very specific areas of Native
Speaker 4: history and then how that affects us in modern times
Speaker 4: with you know, residential schools and the scoop and all
Speaker 4: of that. Actually that reminds me just to go back.
Speaker 4: There was one of those Thomas Edison Films was Indian
Speaker 4: Day School and it was like in right before nineteen hundred,
Speaker 4: and it was about Natives being taken away from their
Speaker 4: families and like you know and being forced assimilated. You know.
Speaker 4: So I can only speak to those experiences. But what
Speaker 4: I like to do is still makes space that I'm
Speaker 4: capable of to tell people about the hurt that we've
Speaker 4: experienced and still experienced by methods of TV and movies.
Speaker 4: But it's going to take time. We can't undo what's
Speaker 4: been done, but we can learn new ways of being.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, I like to make space for people
Speaker 4: to educate, just again from my experiences and in hopes
Speaker 4: that they're not just seeking out like I guess, like
Speaker 4: would it be a trauma bonding or like trying to
Speaker 4: live vicariously through the trauma, right, so they could feel
Speaker 4: some proximity to it without experiencing it. But yeah, like
Speaker 4: I think that the more we can share and the
Speaker 4: more that people realize that they have access to information,
Speaker 4: you know, like there's going to be stuff online that's
Speaker 4: going to support either opinion, right, and that's that's part
Speaker 4: of the problem with people not having a direction to
Speaker 4: go in So like a little bit of compassion. If
Speaker 4: somebody doesn't want to talk to you, don't force it
Speaker 4: out of them because you know you'll get you'll get
Speaker 4: an earful I'm sure. But there's got to be space
Speaker 4: for education, and there's got to be space for Native
Speaker 4: people to be able to tell their own stories, for
Speaker 4: people to participate in that by even just watching m Absolutely,
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think there's so much that we could
Speaker 4: talk this This documentary is so like wonderfully dense.
Speaker 3: Say, are there specific movies or points covered in the
Speaker 3: doc that you wanted to cover? I mean, I feel
Speaker 3: like I wrote down a million quotes of speaking to
Speaker 3: There was one I wanted to share about Pocahontas. I
Speaker 3: didn't write down who said it. I believe it was
Speaker 3: Jesse Windy, who's in Ojibway film critic, who said about
Speaker 3: Pocahontas in a way that again, just at many points,
Speaker 3: this documentary just like really clearly distills what the issue
Speaker 3: is with a tremendously famous movie that misrepresents Native people,
Speaker 3: and this one was we imbue in her all of
Speaker 3: the wrong notions about what we want to see in
Speaker 3: a mythical princess, and she becomes the embodiment of what
Speaker 3: we want to see, not in Native society, she becomes
Speaker 3: an embodiment of what we see in American society and
Speaker 3: of American desire. And that's I mean, that's the white
Speaker 3: millennial's journey With the movie Pocahontas. I think that one
Speaker 3: of the first things that I recognize outside of the
Speaker 3: wild historical inaccuracy then you know, going into film school
Speaker 3: and media, you know where there's all these issues of
Speaker 3: erasure in academia as well, but just finding how much
Speaker 3: more significantly sexualized Pocahonta was. Not only is she aged
Speaker 3: up to seem to be an appropriate romantic interest, not
Speaker 3: only is there all of this implied consent, not only
Speaker 3: is there this implied betrayal of her own people, all
Speaker 3: of which is untrue, but the way that she's physically
Speaker 3: presented is as far more sexual than any of the
Speaker 3: white Disney princesses that you would see. And the historical
Speaker 3: context that comes with that of overtly sexualizing and you know,
Speaker 3: alternatively sexualizing and erasing Native women from media entirely.
Speaker 4: That that makes me think about some of those old
Speaker 4: westerns and like when the women would be in brown face,
Speaker 4: you know, it was always like the white man would
Speaker 4: be seeking out you know this I cat like it's
Speaker 4: such a it's a slur, so I can't even say it.
Speaker 4: But like the sq word, right, and like if anyone
Speaker 4: wants a piece of homework, go look at what the
Speaker 4: actual origin of that meaning is. It's incredibly vulgar. But
Speaker 4: I think about it's always about like and going in
Speaker 4: theme with the podcast here, it's all about like being
Speaker 4: available to men, right, It's the use use of buying men, right,
Speaker 4: even you know, not to like go off too far
Speaker 4: off course here, but like even with like the school marm, right,
Speaker 4: like the white women in it are just there to
Speaker 4: be of use for the men and to take care
Speaker 4: of the children and that sort of thing. Like there's
Speaker 4: no dimension, right, So when you see these native women
Speaker 4: in whether it be Westerns or even like the contemporary
Speaker 4: Western like Dances with Wolves, her purpose was to serve
Speaker 4: the man, right and be this like caricature of indigenity,
Speaker 4: when like ol stands with a fist was actually just
Speaker 4: a white woman, you know, who was stolen by these
Speaker 4: savages but then raised by them, you know, and it's
Speaker 4: this whole story and I really like that it was
Speaker 4: brought up that she looked like she was disheveled, and
Speaker 4: she looked all these ways, and like if she was
Speaker 4: actually living with them, she would have commune. Like so
Speaker 4: they had to make her look savage, right and like,
Speaker 4: and it was the white man that saved her from
Speaker 4: you know whatever. It's just because like, also, heaven forbid
Speaker 4: this white man end up with a It's like she
Speaker 4: had like two she was a two dimensional character. Like
Speaker 4: she wasn't one dimension, she had two dimensions because she
Speaker 4: lived with natives but was still white. You know that
Speaker 4: heaven forbid he would have ended up with a Native
Speaker 4: woman at all, you know, Like and so there's still
Speaker 4: a level of like, what's the word for it. It's
Speaker 4: like just if it's like misogyny, racism, and again back
Speaker 4: to the fetish station of like what women are worth, right,
Speaker 4: and then you add, you know, add in that she's
Speaker 4: native or brown or anything, you know, and that's adds
Speaker 4: another level of like just utter dismissal of any any worth.
Speaker 1: For sure. Actually, if I had one criticism of this
Speaker 1: documentary is that I would have loved to hear more
Speaker 1: Native women, Yeah, talk about what they've experienced, what they've seen,
Speaker 1: as far as the representation of Native women and fems
Speaker 1: in Hollywood and just their thoughts on it, because we
Speaker 1: have a there's a few women who were interviewed, but
Speaker 1: definitely more men.
Speaker 4: I mean. And that's that's the other thing too, Like
Speaker 4: I look at timeframe, and I look at like, you know,
Speaker 4: we always have to take an account of when things
Speaker 4: are made, right, because like A, I don't believe in
Speaker 4: the thing that people didn't know any better. They just
Speaker 4: choose not to expand, right, you know, or have like
Speaker 4: like the time frame can explain it, it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 4: excuse it, right, Does that make sense?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: But I look at the timeframe move when this was made,
Speaker 4: and there weren't a lot of major motion pictures being wow,
Speaker 4: just said the words major motion pictures, the brave, I
Speaker 4: thank you, it's nice to be here. But there weren't
Speaker 4: a vast amount of major motion pictures being made with
Speaker 4: Native actresses, right, like in roles that weren't like, you know,
Speaker 4: freaking like Legends of the Fall, like one woman for
Speaker 4: a few minutes, and of course, oh what she was
Speaker 4: serving Brad Pitt's character, you know. Like, so, I mean
Speaker 4: I think that this documentary like kind of subtly without
Speaker 4: maybe knowing, really helped shed light on that because yeah,
Speaker 4: there wasn't any even in something that was so progressive
Speaker 4: at its time. You know, we're at the point where
Speaker 4: we could have Real Engine part two and like, look
Speaker 4: at where we are now, you know, and what we've learned.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a there are five Twilight movies that
Speaker 1: came out since okay, progress is not linear all the
Speaker 1: time and moving forward, and because like you know, the
Speaker 1: movie ends on this like really you know, positive note
Speaker 1: of like representations seems to be getting better. But then
Speaker 1: all these Twilight movies came out.
Speaker 4: But also like just another fun you probably already know this,
Speaker 4: but like fun movie fact is that Taylor Latner improvised
Speaker 4: Loca and they just kept it in there. So that
Speaker 4: wasn't even no.
Speaker 3: I did not know that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that that is. That is one of the only
Speaker 4: parts of those movies I've ever watched, And I just
Speaker 4: enjoy it because I'm just like him in his big
Speaker 4: white teeth just saying Loka just does it for me.
Speaker 3: Those Loatner veneers, nothing like them, spark sparkle just yeah,
Speaker 3: I would be that was I would love to see
Speaker 3: a sort of an update. I guess I don't know,
Speaker 3: I as someone that is always frustrated by like the
Speaker 3: idea of being like, oh that thing you did a
Speaker 3: long time ago, do it again for me? But I
Speaker 3: but I would love to see sort of an update
Speaker 3: in this format. Maybe it exists and I just don't
Speaker 3: know about.
Speaker 4: It, but maybe if it does, I hope I didn't
Speaker 4: miss it, you know. Like again, not to dismiss Neil
Speaker 4: Diamond like I and this is going to sound really
Speaker 4: silly to say it out loud, but like people like
Speaker 4: him make me proud to be free because it is
Speaker 4: something that is so authentically indigenous to who he was
Speaker 4: and the environment he grew up in what he saw right.
Speaker 4: He wasn't pretending to be a type of native that
Speaker 4: he wasn't. Right, So I appreciate everything he's done with
Speaker 4: that film and how he narrated it and how he
Speaker 4: story told through it. And again, like I said at
Speaker 4: the beginning, you know, when I was kind of talking
Speaker 4: about my experience with the film, it's it's literally the
Speaker 4: movie that I give for people as a stepping stone
Speaker 4: to understanding why their perceptions are the way they are
Speaker 4: of us. Bite size breakdown, you know. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 4: positive catalyst movie. That's what I think of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, ooh ooh, that's a great description for like a
Speaker 3: genre of movie.
Speaker 4: That's cool, Like I love things that are thought provoking,
Speaker 4: but it's a positive catalyst to Like again, both of
Speaker 4: you said, like, oh, we have to watch these movies
Speaker 4: from it or whatever. This is like thirteen years ago.
Speaker 4: There's so much since then, but like those movies are
Speaker 4: your little snack of Maronis on your way to understanding
Speaker 4: Native people through cinema.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so absolutely, Yeah, is there anything else that you
Speaker 3: both wanted to touch on?
Speaker 4: I mean, we're at the point now where we realize
Speaker 4: that we're all a Native land, right, and the best
Speaker 4: way to understand where people are now is by understanding history,
Speaker 4: and so knowing where you are is a really good
Speaker 4: step forward. You don't know any like I encourage people
Speaker 4: to not feel overwhelmed when it comes to understanding where
Speaker 4: they are. So, like, you know, you live somewhere they're
Speaker 4: like native land. You can find out who's laned you're on.
Speaker 4: Start doing some research, you know, just find out where
Speaker 4: you are and find out who's laned you're on. Find
Speaker 4: out if that tribe is doing anything, find out how
Speaker 4: you and support is such a broad word, but encourage
Speaker 4: other people to learn, understand the initiatives being taken, support
Speaker 4: them when they're trying to change legislation, get land back,
Speaker 4: et cetera. You know, it can be very overwhelming. Again,
Speaker 4: like I said, to find out that most of your
Speaker 4: existence in knowledge is built on lies about people and
Speaker 4: this false sense of security in what the United States
Speaker 4: and Canada stand on. But I mean, I promise it's
Speaker 4: worth it's worth learning about, definitely. So that's that's all
Speaker 4: I got. Oh and not every Indians and planes Indian
Speaker 4: we don't all where headdresses and war bonnets, I mean
Speaker 4: like by people do.
Speaker 3: But you know that was that was the last thing
Speaker 3: I wanted to actually because we started talking about the
Speaker 3: costume design. But just how there was a great quote
Speaker 3: I think also from Oh my gosh, I have so
Speaker 3: many does Jesse WENTI? Yeah, for you know how the
Speaker 3: use of the what am I thinking of? Around the neck?
Speaker 4: Are you talking about breastplates or the finger necklace or
Speaker 4: the finger It was like the headband.
Speaker 3: Sorry, my brain no longer works. No, the use of
Speaker 3: the choker being strictly practical to hide like wires and
Speaker 3: different things where they're like, yeah, we completely manufactured the
Speaker 3: image of native people to the point where it was
Speaker 3: to hide ship. That was just movie shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the headband to hold on, the wigs and stuff
Speaker 4: like that. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's one of
Speaker 4: the biggest like takeaways for this movie. The first time
Speaker 4: I saw it as as somebody who is a Plane's Indian?
Speaker 4: You know, I I was like, yeah, I was like this,
Speaker 4: they need the identifiers. So like suddenly everyone's wearing a headdress,
Speaker 4: everyone has a breastplate on, everyone has these long braids
Speaker 4: or whatever, and it's just it was so it's so lazy,
Speaker 4: Like it's just feels so lazy. But the thing is
Speaker 4: they just needed this like identifier, and like, while I
Speaker 4: get it, like I think planes natives are beautiful, and
Speaker 4: there's so many tribes, Like there's so many tribes that
Speaker 4: live in the Great Plains, I mean, like why them,
Speaker 4: you know, like again like they're like but I again,
Speaker 4: I wouldn't wish that fetishization on any other group, you know.
Speaker 4: So it's just it's it's very interesting to see that
Speaker 4: that was it was it's a caricature of indigenoity. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what that does is just lumps all Native
Speaker 1: people into one monolith culturally, and they're in Hollywood. For
Speaker 1: most of these films made no attempt to include any
Speaker 1: like specific cultural signifiers for different tribes and nations, and
Speaker 1: it also just strips natives of specific cultural identity. And
Speaker 1: Hollywood was just doing that for decades, and white audiences
Speaker 1: were none the wiser. They were just like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is on screen, this just must be it, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: And then that just brings us back to the point
Speaker 1: of like taking the initiative to learn and actually do
Speaker 1: the work, put in the effort.
Speaker 3: To You may have to read a book.
Speaker 4: Or you can do you can do the other thing
Speaker 4: that I do, because again, reading is not my friend.
Speaker 4: I just can't focus in, so I just like use
Speaker 4: my delicious little apps on my phone or even highlight
Speaker 4: text on my contutor. Yes, they said contutor and I
Speaker 4: and I haven't read it to me, you know, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: Everyone learns different ways and there's so many applications to
Speaker 4: be able to facilitate that now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is yeah, just like another of all the
Speaker 3: elements of being alive right now that are fucking awful.
Speaker 3: That is a good thing, take advantage of the few
Speaker 3: good things we have. Yeah, Yeah, I just wanted to
Speaker 3: share those quotes from Richard Lamont because I feel like,
Speaker 3: I mean, it's very much what our show is about,
Speaker 3: or has become increasingly more about over the years, which
Speaker 3: is that, like I think it's very easy to you know,
Speaker 3: like I don't know argue that, Like, I mean, I
Speaker 3: just think we still I still see this among people
Speaker 3: that I like, know and like and respect and all
Speaker 3: this stuff. But they're like, it's just a movie. It's
Speaker 3: not that serious. It's just a movie. Which it's it's
Speaker 3: very rarely just a movie, especially when you're talking about
Speaker 3: or erasing entirely communities who are rarely have ever given
Speaker 3: the opportunity to represent themselves with the same budgets, with
Speaker 3: the same sort of institutional support, and all of this shit.
Speaker 1: It's it.
Speaker 3: It is as goofy as so much of it is.
Speaker 3: It is like extraordinarily important, and.
Speaker 1: Whether we notice it or not, it is altering our perceptions.
Speaker 3: And that Jesse went to quote that I really really
Speaker 3: kind of stuck with me during the costuming segment, was
Speaker 3: that the way that you know, all of indigenous culture
Speaker 3: was just sort of turned into this also false representation
Speaker 3: of a plane's native. He says, it's an ingenious act
Speaker 3: of colonialism, robbing nations of their identity and grouping them.
Speaker 3: And that just feels like this story, even when it's
Speaker 3: you know, seemingly well intentioned, you have this like brief
Speaker 3: moment in the seventies, but even so it's majority by
Speaker 3: white directors who are showing Native characters in a more
Speaker 3: empathetic light than film has in many years, but through
Speaker 3: the white character's lens.
Speaker 4: Always well, it's the outward racism. For me, that is
Speaker 4: just like portraying John Wayne as the real American, right,
Speaker 4: and you know, natives not being right, and that's just
Speaker 4: so yeah, yeah, that's something that still like it's I
Speaker 4: think it was like John Trudell actually who said the
Speaker 4: words in that even he's an incredible poet, but he
Speaker 4: in the documentary he talked about how like when they
Speaker 4: got off the boat, they didn't recognize us, you know,
Speaker 4: and I think that that is still the rhetoric that
Speaker 4: you know, came through in cinema over the last hundred years.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Something also that he said that really stuck with
Speaker 1: me was the word Indian had never been.
Speaker 4: Uttered a sound had never been made yet.
Speaker 1: In this hemisphere pre Subtler colonialism, and like the idea
Speaker 1: of name of American in the sense that like America
Speaker 1: was a concept that was also brought over. And he's like,
Speaker 1: my people are older than both concepts. Yeah, but we're
Speaker 1: still fighting so hard to defend that identity.
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, Like even the word Indian, there's
Speaker 4: a lot of like I'm indifferent to it, and everyone
Speaker 4: is entitled to their own standard with it, Like I
Speaker 4: don't really like I identify as Indian slang now as letters
Speaker 4: and d end, you know. And it's just like a
Speaker 4: cute way of kind of like like you know, vernacular
Speaker 4: changes in certain demographics and groups of people. You know,
Speaker 4: there's something that's like he said, like we're the people
Speaker 4: and this is really cool, just as like a kind
Speaker 4: of a nugget is I have a lot of friends
Speaker 4: of a lot of different tribes, and like most of
Speaker 4: the time their names just translate to the people right
Speaker 4: or something about the people of right, like so it's
Speaker 4: always just people, and so like same thing with Nichio.
Speaker 4: It's we're people, right. And it's interesting because I don't like,
Speaker 4: unless I'm hanging out with like my Nie Cheese, which
Speaker 4: are like my friends and stuff like that. Like, you know,
Speaker 4: using the word Indian isn't really a thing that I do,
Speaker 4: because it's a point of like both, Like I just
Speaker 4: I'm appalled by it. By the same time, I'm like,
Speaker 4: it's how I identify. It's a really weird too true
Speaker 4: truths can exist at the same time, for like how
Speaker 4: I feel about being an Indian because I don't want
Speaker 4: to be a Native American again, Like America is not
Speaker 4: what I want to be a part of.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: I prefer to be referred to as First Nations because
Speaker 4: my people were of the first nations here. But I
Speaker 4: am like when I introduce myself, you know, I'm not
Speaker 4: an Indian. I'm Mitchif and I'm Nechio and I'm German.
Speaker 4: Thanks Dad for having a thing for skinny white women.
Speaker 4: But you know, like just what it is. That's the
Speaker 4: other thing too, is like because I'm like I acknowledge
Speaker 4: all parts of myself and like I got to grow
Speaker 4: up with some pretty rich German heritage too, and that
Speaker 4: was pretty neat. And that's the other thing that was
Speaker 4: touched on the movie, which actually is really important, is
Speaker 4: that John Tredell said, He's like, you know, they're just
Speaker 4: trying to find themselves, these hippies, right, because you know,
Speaker 4: they were part of tribes, they were part of nations
Speaker 4: at one point, and they're just searching for that piece
Speaker 4: of them that's lost. That's why they latch on. And
Speaker 4: I felt that because colonization has done a number on everybody,
Speaker 4: and just because we're the most recent, you know, we're
Speaker 4: feeling it in such a drastic way. I feel bad
Speaker 4: for people who appropriate Native people here because I know
Speaker 4: that they're just searching for something in themselves that they
Speaker 4: don't have an answer to and probably never will. So
Speaker 4: not excusing what they're doing, but again explains the behavior,
Speaker 4: doesn't excuse it exactly.
Speaker 5: So much.
Speaker 4: There's so many nuggets in that.
Speaker 3: I feel like we keep being like, okay, the episode
Speaker 3: ever time.
Speaker 4: But yeah, people watch the movie if you haven't, and
Speaker 4: ask questions, and ask questions about where you are, and
Speaker 4: ask questions if those people have made films or have
Speaker 4: been in TV shows, or have participated in anything to
Speaker 4: do storytelling. That's what Native people are known for. We're storytellers,
Speaker 4: you know, like every Native nation has their stories of
Speaker 4: how we got to be here why we shouldn't do
Speaker 4: certain things, and there's protocols around that too, which I
Speaker 4: guess also varied by nation, because again, not an infallible
Speaker 4: fount of all things indigenous. But yeah, take time, learn
Speaker 4: and explore, and it's gonna make us better as people
Speaker 4: understand where folks are coming from, because we can undo
Speaker 4: what's happened, but we can always learn new ways of
Speaker 4: being absolute.
Speaker 1: You mentioned slash Back. Are there any other movies you
Speaker 1: would recommend people check out by indigenous filmmakers.
Speaker 4: I mean there's just there's so there's so many, Like
Speaker 4: just as a side note, there's so many incredible like
Speaker 4: short films like the Gosh what it was It? Like
Speaker 4: the Native American there's one that I gotta look it
Speaker 4: up right now. It's gonna it's gonna kill me. But
Speaker 4: there's these like short films that I've been seeing recently
Speaker 4: and they're pretty amazing. Did I delete it? I deleted
Speaker 4: that of course. But like the Native American like Film Festival,
Speaker 4: they have so many up and coming Native artists doing
Speaker 4: like five minute films, you know, like just to see
Speaker 4: things again through an indigenous lens is so important. There's
Speaker 4: so many talented native musicians and I know, like the
Speaker 4: dirty word like TV shows, but there's so many TV
Speaker 4: shows now that authorated bite sized pieces for lack of
Speaker 4: a better term, you know, like where you can just
Speaker 4: step away for thirty minutes and just experience proximity to
Speaker 4: somebody else, you know, through their language and their their
Speaker 4: their lens.
Speaker 1: Yeah beautiful. Well, I say thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us, for discussing this movie with us, and for
Speaker 1: helping us make history on this show. Yeah, covering a
Speaker 1: documentary for the first time, Who's history? But it was
Speaker 1: such an enlightening conversation, And yeah, I loved this discussion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so glad that you encourage us to cover
Speaker 3: this one specifically because I just I feel like I
Speaker 3: have like a list of wonderful movies to watch. I'm
Speaker 3: so excited, and.
Speaker 4: Honestly, I appreciate it because for me, again, I don't
Speaker 4: want to speak as anyone other than like a mature
Speaker 4: for Nahio person to not really talk about like a
Speaker 4: film that you know wasn't created or through the lens
Speaker 4: of like these people. It's hard for me to speak
Speaker 4: to that because I haven't had their lived experience and
Speaker 4: I don't speak their language, and I don't know their stories,
Speaker 4: so I can't speak to like the beauty that's behind
Speaker 4: some of these films and TV shows and even music
Speaker 4: that's coming out. So to talk about something that I
Speaker 4: feel comfortable speaking on, which is how natives have been portrayed,
Speaker 4: I really appreciate and value the space to be able
Speaker 4: to do that, and for you guys to bend your
Speaker 4: rules a little bit and make space for somebody that's
Speaker 4: so important. And not a lot of places do that,
Speaker 4: even though we'd like to think we're progressive. So thank
Speaker 4: you for making space for me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Gosh happy to do it.
Speaker 3: Come back and cover any movie like drop Dead fread
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, truly like whatever that's it. I can't imagine
Speaker 3: the rich feminist discussion around Drop Dead Friend.
Speaker 4: I turned out fine shod all the time.
Speaker 1: You know what's mild. I always get the title of
Speaker 1: that movie confused with Freddy got fingered because they both
Speaker 1: have fred in it.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm realizing that I was doing the
Speaker 3: same thing.
Speaker 4: No, No, that that is a different one. That's the
Speaker 4: Tom Green one that the dropped Dead fred is the
Speaker 4: like special Friend. I don't what are they called imaginary
Speaker 4: fan that's way too creepy.
Speaker 3: God, is there any movie with starring a character named
Speaker 3: Fred who is not scared? Five Nights Five Nights of.
Speaker 1: Freddy's Wish Finger. I had a reservation to go see
Speaker 1: it on my amc A list stubs and uh then
Speaker 1: I looked up it's rotten Tomato score and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's low.
Speaker 3: I don't think that anyone should ever trust a Rotten
Speaker 3: Tomatoes score, especially a movie of a horror movie, especially
Speaker 3: I have a horror movie directed by a woman. I
Speaker 3: was really I was really stoked to see. This is
Speaker 3: the biggest goofiest thing to start talking about the at
Speaker 3: the end of this episode. But it's yeah, directed by
Speaker 3: a woman named Emma Tammy who I haven't seen her
Speaker 3: work before, but she negotiated in a percentage of profits.
Speaker 3: Then the movie has made over two hundred million dollars.
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, I just like, well, so,
Speaker 3: even though it very well may fucking suck, everyone's seeing
Speaker 3: five Nights at Fred Dropped Dead Fred.
Speaker 4: Five Nights at Freddy Krueger's Justice for Fred's No John's
Speaker 4: and Fred's are out. I'm sorry, true, It's twenty twenty
Speaker 4: three almost twenty twenty four, I'm like, are.
Speaker 3: We if and ultimately this is this very well may
Speaker 3: revive Josh Hodgerson's career, And how do we feel about that?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 4: Fine with me?
Speaker 3: Are we? Do we in two twenty twenty three need
Speaker 3: to revive Josh Hunterson's career? A fair question.
Speaker 4: Let's ponder that one and then get back to each
Speaker 4: other through yes.
Speaker 3: Email as I thank you so so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Does the Bechdel test and the nipple scale even apply here?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 3: I think, I like, like you were saying earlier, essay,
Speaker 3: it does app I mean, I don't think we can
Speaker 3: really do a nipple scale for this because it's like you,
Speaker 3: but all three of us have kind of alluded to
Speaker 3: the fact that this documentary is incredibly valuable. I'd never
Speaker 3: seen anything like it. I learned a ton, and I
Speaker 3: think we all sort of seem to feel that women
Speaker 3: were not the way that Native women are portrayed, and
Speaker 3: the number of women included in the documentary left something
Speaker 3: to be desired.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, I mean, there's always room for provement. We
Speaker 4: can never think that the thing we do is finite
Speaker 4: and perfect. You know, so again catalyst. Right, Let's take
Speaker 4: it as a catalyst and think about if any of
Speaker 4: the young Native female directors out there saw this at
Speaker 4: some point and said, hey, I want to I want
Speaker 4: to change things up. You know, That's that's all we
Speaker 4: can hope for for a film like this to educate
Speaker 4: and inspire.
Speaker 3: Definitely.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so no nippies, but not yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is this is a this is a this
Speaker 3: is an n slash a as far as I con
Speaker 3: certainly not applicable.
Speaker 4: Although there are I will say that it's uh, there
Speaker 4: are some graphic scenes, especially with the photos and stuff
Speaker 4: like that, that are quite triggering or agitating. With some
Speaker 4: of the imagery of natives being harmed or like from
Speaker 4: both film and then the photos that were shown that
Speaker 4: those always can be jarring.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, indeed, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Jenna Side is daring y'all.
Speaker 1: Where can people check you out on social media? Check
Speaker 1: out your work, et cetera.
Speaker 4: On the interwebs. You can find me on Instagram at
Speaker 4: at Lawrence Welch and w And then I have one
Speaker 4: of those invaluable link trees with all of the other
Speaker 4: things on them that you can find stuff about creepy
Speaker 4: teepee which is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us more about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, creepy Tepe is kind of amazing. Talk about native storytelling.
Speaker 4: So my friend I Vana yellow Back, and I get
Speaker 4: together through the Internet and do live streams where we
Speaker 4: tell spooky stories from our nation. We're both Cree, so
Speaker 4: we'll still tell stories of our people and the spooky
Speaker 4: stuff that goes bump in the night, and then our
Speaker 4: own personal experiences. And we're looking to do a series
Speaker 4: next where we have guests on that we'll be telling
Speaker 4: spooky stories from their nations, keeping it creepy, putting the
Speaker 4: Kree and creepy, I guess.
Speaker 1: Perfect.
Speaker 4: And then yeah, and that's a lot of fun, and
Speaker 4: we're building that up slowly but surely. And then yeah,
Speaker 4: with traditions. Again, I've said a few times that I'm
Speaker 4: not an infallible fountable things indigenous. I don't really like
Speaker 4: pen indigenity. As we've seen from the way I've spoke today,
Speaker 4: not all natives are the same. We're not a modelith
Speaker 4: and so I created this art project to really showcase
Speaker 4: the differences in tribal nations through art as the outlet.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, be doing shows and different events with
Speaker 4: that to just kind of celebrate the diversity of indigenity
Speaker 4: on this land mass. So that's pretty cool. But yeah,
Speaker 4: you find me on Instagram, I'm at Lawrence Welsh Northwest
Speaker 4: NW and then online at tradish Hyphenish dot com and yeah,
Speaker 4: that's that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Thank you again so much.
Speaker 3: This has been We'll see you on the drop Dead Fred.
Speaker 4: It's like we just did just do like snippets of
Speaker 4: like every Fred movie ever, like just include Fred.
Speaker 1: Fred Molina.
Speaker 3: Okay, oh that's true. Who goes by Freddy? Sometimes it's complicated.
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram, still on Twitter sometimes
Speaker 3: when we remember to post there. At Bechtel Cast, you
Speaker 3: can join our Patreon aka Matreon, where for five bucks
Speaker 3: a month you can get two bonus episodes as well
Speaker 3: as access to our back catalog of about one hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty episodes. And so yeah you can. You can
Speaker 3: find us there.
Speaker 1: And you can also grab our merch at teapublic dot com,
Speaker 1: slash v Bechdel Cast, grab some you know, T shirts, pillows,
Speaker 1: et cetera. Everything's designed by a one Jamie Loftis.
Speaker 3: It's true. It's getting to be the holiday season, so
Speaker 3: get your sexy baby Grinch s merch. There's really powerful plug.
Speaker 3: We've exited wet scab dry scab season and now we're
Speaker 3: heading into baby Grinch wearing heels. Yes, our merch store
Speaker 3: is fairly cursed, but we do have it.
Speaker 1: It is there, and you can buy the stuff if
Speaker 1: you so choose, and we'll be back next week. So
Speaker 1: sure well, then bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftus,
Speaker 1: produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme
Speaker 1: song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski.
Speaker 1: Our logo in Merch is designed by Jamie Loftus and
Speaker 1: a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about
Speaker 1: the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechdelcast