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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions ask if movies have women and them, are

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Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they

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Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeffi Beast start changing it

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Speaker 2: with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Bechdel Cast listeners, it's us with an exciting live

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Speaker 3: show announcement in Los Angeles on December tenth.

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Speaker 1: We are covering It's a Wonderful life.

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Speaker 3: But is it?

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Speaker 1: But is it?

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Speaker 3: We'll be examining this.

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Speaker 1: And the show is Sunday, December tenth at four pm.

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Speaker 1: It's live in LA at Dynasty Typewriter and we're also

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Speaker 1: live streaming it, so if you live anywhere else you

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Speaker 1: can still see the show.

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Speaker 3: We're going to be donating half of the proceeds from

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Speaker 3: this show to ANARA and PCRF, which are both organizations

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Speaker 3: that are providing aid in Gaza right now. Because Free Palestine, bitch,

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Speaker 3: And if you don't feel that way, then you can

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Speaker 3: escort your self off our feed exactly. Anyways, live show.

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Speaker 1: Once again, it's Sunday, December tenth at four pm live

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Speaker 1: in La a Dynasty Typewriter. Also live streams are available,

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Speaker 1: so go to link tree slash Bechdel Cast or Dynasty

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Speaker 1: typewriter dot com to grab your tickets.

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Speaker 3: See you at Dynasty Typewriter December tenth, four pm.

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Speaker 1: See you there, the Bechdelcast. Hello and welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Bechdel Cast. Uh huh Okay, my name is Caitlin Deronte.

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Speaker 3: Why are we being so shy about it? I don't know? Hello,

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Speaker 3: excuse me. I guess we're coming off of our horror

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Speaker 3: movie air Weekly or our annual horror movie things, so

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Speaker 3: we're kind of final girling into the show being like, Hello,

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Speaker 3: my name is Jamie Laftus, and this is the Bechdel Cast,

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Speaker 3: our intersectional feminist movie podcast where we take a look

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Speaker 3: at your face movies using an intersectional feminist lens. Although

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Speaker 3: this week I'm excited that we were making history on

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Speaker 3: the Bexel Cast by covering our first documentary. We've never

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Speaker 3: done this before. I'm super super pumped about it. So,

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Speaker 3: but before we start talking about it, let's tell everyone

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Speaker 3: what the show is.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Everyone, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Yes, welcome, And our show is called the Bechdel Cast

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Speaker 1: because it's loosely based off of the Bechdel Test, which

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Speaker 1: we use simply as a jumping off point if you're

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Speaker 1: not in the know, it is a media metric created Bible.

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Speaker 3: Well, I can I do that this week almost where

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Speaker 3: my fun fact is okay, yeah, do it fun fact listeners.

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Speaker 3: I do read the iTunes reviews. And some people would

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Speaker 3: say that that's emotional self harm, and if so, I

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Speaker 3: do it. And I noticed when recently, first of all,

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Speaker 3: some of y'all are hurting my feelings, some of y'all

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Speaker 3: are making me feel great. And one of y'all made

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Speaker 3: me think about this of how we don't often give

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Speaker 3: credit to we say you know that it is a

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Speaker 3: media metric created by Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel

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Speaker 3: Wallace test, that is not quite accurate to history. So

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Speaker 3: while we go back to the factory and retool our

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Speaker 3: way of saying that sentence, I just wanted to do

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Speaker 3: a quick shout out for the benefit of that iTunes reviewer.

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Speaker 3: So we usually say is it is a media metric

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Speaker 3: created by Alison Bechdel in the eighties in her comic

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Speaker 3: strip Dikes to Watch Out for Great Comic Classic Comic

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Speaker 3: that was originally intended to point out how infrequently women,

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Speaker 3: specifically queer women, speak to each other in any piece

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Speaker 3: of media about anything that is not about man explicitly.

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Speaker 3: But there I went back and just verified that. So

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Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel credits While she was the first person to

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Speaker 3: publish the Bechdel Test, it makes sense that it's called

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel Test, but it's the idea to her friend

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Speaker 3: Liz Wallace, which is why we sometimes call it the

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Speaker 3: Bechdel Wallace Test. But she also credits it to Virginia

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Speaker 3: Wolf and a quote from A Room of One's Own

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Speaker 3: which I have never read, but I just wanted to

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Speaker 3: share this quick quote from Virginia Wolf weirdly at the

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Speaker 3: beginning of this episode, because Virginia Wolf does pretty clearly

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Speaker 3: lay out the Bechdel Test in nineteen twenty nine. She says, quote,

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Speaker 3: and I tried to remember any case in the course

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Speaker 3: of my reading where two women are represented as friends.

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Speaker 3: They are now and then mothers and daughters, but almost

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Speaker 3: without exception, they are shown in their relation to men.

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Speaker 3: It was strained to think that all the great women

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Speaker 3: of fiction were, until Jane Austen's day, not seen by

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Speaker 3: the other sex, but seen only in relation to the

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Speaker 3: other sex. And how small a part of a women's

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Speaker 3: life is that unquote? So obviously, you know, very nineteen

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Speaker 3: twenty nine language, But I thought it was interesting we've

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Speaker 3: never shouted that out on the show before, that the

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Speaker 3: Bechdel Test, while understandably attributed to Alison Bechdel, was a

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Speaker 3: group effort over a course of sixty years. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's fun.

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Speaker 1: As many many things are a collaborative effort.

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Speaker 3: It's true and intergenerational collaborative effort. But Caitlyn, all that said,

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Speaker 3: what is the Bechdel test?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Short, for sure.

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Speaker 3: So our version of it is because we've added some

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Speaker 3: flair we've contributed, Well, yeah, it continues to be a

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Speaker 3: collaborative effort. Our version is do two people of a

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Speaker 3: marginalized gender who have names speak to each other about

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Speaker 3: something other than a man? And we especially like it

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Speaker 3: when it is a kind of narratively impactful conversation and

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Speaker 3: not just like throw away dialogue. All that to say,

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Speaker 3: it won't really even apply on this episode because we

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Speaker 3: are covering a documentary, but it's a good thing. We

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Speaker 3: gave a full history of the test we will not

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Speaker 3: be using today to get the episode. You're welcome for that,

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Speaker 3: And with that, let's make history on the Bechdel Cast

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Speaker 3: and discuss not just a documentary, but a really terrific documentary.

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Speaker 3: And let's bring in our guest.

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Speaker 1: Yes, let's do it. Our guest is a mitchif and

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Speaker 1: Nihio advocate, organizer, speaker, activist, artist and writer focusing on

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Speaker 1: the lasting damage of residential school system, Indian boarding schools,

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Speaker 1: and the sixties scoop on First Nations people. She's the

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Speaker 1: founder of tradish Ish. They are the co host of

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Speaker 1: Creepy Teepee. It's Essay. Lawrence Welch, Welcome, Hello, and.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Ben Shay. Thank you for having me. This is

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Speaker 4: so exciting.

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Speaker 1: I thank you so much, so excited to talk about

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Speaker 1: the documentary from two thousand and nine, Real Engine Again.

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Speaker 1: This is our We're making history here because normally we

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Speaker 1: do narrative film. But I think this is a great

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Speaker 1: way for us to break into documentary.

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Speaker 3: I think that this is like us working our way

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Speaker 3: out because we on the show always say that we

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Speaker 3: will never read a book, but I think that documentary

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Speaker 3: we got to be careful. It's a gateway to books.

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Speaker 3: It's a gateway drugs to books.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's the lazy person's read, you know,

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Speaker 4: like I don't do well with books either, So team,

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Speaker 4: no reading right here. I just it needs to be

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Speaker 4: super engaging, and I just I have a really hard

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Speaker 4: time staying focused saying with pages. So tell me stuff,

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Speaker 4: show be things. I'll retain it better. And that's why

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Speaker 4: I like documentaries. And I wanted to add too, I

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Speaker 4: think that the test does apply to this in some way,

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Speaker 4: shape or form. There's a lot of narratives within this

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Speaker 4: documentary that kind of showcase how fems were erase secondary. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 4: secondary to basically erased in a lot of cinematic history,

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Speaker 4: especially talking about the first people's of this land. So

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Speaker 4: go team for sure.

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Speaker 3: This documentary. I want to talk about everyone's history with

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Speaker 3: it in just a second. It's made. Yeah, came out

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine, directed by Neil Diamond, Catherine Bainbridge,

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Speaker 3: and Jeremiah Hayes. It's wild, how I mean. I've I

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Speaker 3: watched the doc twice and it's for a ninety minute

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Speaker 3: documentary covers so much.

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Speaker 4: So much jam packed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I say, what is your history with this doc?

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Speaker 3: When did you first see it and how did you what?

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Speaker 3: We were your feelings on it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I saw it when it first came out. I

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Speaker 4: was it's been along road, which the film will highlight,

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Speaker 4: you know, of natives and cinema, But it was so

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Speaker 4: amazing to see a Cree person, not unlike myself. Neheoh

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Speaker 4: is the actual word for the people, not Cree was

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Speaker 4: the name that was given to us by settler colonizers whatever.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, we still identify with that name because it's

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Speaker 4: how we get recognized. I guess that's a different conversation though,

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I saw it, and it's honestly, this movie

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Speaker 4: means a lot to me, more than most things. And

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Speaker 4: even like you know, thirteen some odd years later, it's

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Speaker 4: the movie I recommend for people to have even a

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Speaker 4: glimpse into understanding how racism and prejudice started against Native

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Speaker 4: people and how narratives, really Hollywood can create a narrative

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Speaker 4: that transform, transforms the way people think about an entire

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Speaker 4: demographic of people who is, unto itself, completely diverse. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I just from the first moment seeing this, I was

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Speaker 4: absolutely enamored by it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so good. It's so good, and it's like

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Speaker 3: and it's a road story on top of like it's

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Speaker 3: just like, yeah, so wonderful. I hadn't seen this one before.

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Speaker 3: I had heard about it for years. I think when

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Speaker 3: I first tried to watch it, it wasn't streaming anywhere

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Speaker 3: now if you're watching in the US at least, I

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Speaker 3: don't know how it will cross over, but it's streaming

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Speaker 3: for free on two B right now. And I would

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Speaker 3: really recommend if you haven't watched it yet, pause the

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Speaker 3: episode and watch the doc. It's so wonderful and yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot,

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Speaker 3: and I think that there was other elements of Native

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Speaker 3: cinema and like the history of Native cinema that I

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Speaker 3: had heard about and knew but didn't have like it

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Speaker 3: put fully into context. And this movie is incredibly I mean,

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Speaker 3: I know it can't be completely comprehensive in the space

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Speaker 3: of ninety minutes, but I really, really really liked it.

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Speaker 3: And I also feel like I left with a list

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Speaker 3: of movies that I'm really excited to watch. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so it was my first time seeing it and I

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Speaker 3: really loved it. Caitlyn, what about You?

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Speaker 1: Same for me. I hadn't seen it before. It was

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Speaker 1: on my list of things to watch, and this episode

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Speaker 1: gave me a great excuse to finally see it, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it makes a lot of sense for us,

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Speaker 1: even though it is a doc and we normally don't

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Speaker 1: cover them on the show because we you know, examine

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Speaker 1: narrative film and then discuss the representation therein. This documentary

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Speaker 1: also examines media from a representation standpoint, and then it's

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Speaker 1: specific to how Native people and cultures are portrayed in Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: So it's doing something similar to what we do on

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Speaker 1: the show. So I'm really excited to talk about it

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Speaker 1: and get into it in more detail.

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Speaker 3: It's like this, I mean truly this documentary maybe want

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Speaker 3: to maybe want to watch a bunch of movies, which

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Speaker 3: is not unusual, but it also is like, oh, I

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Speaker 3: also want to read several books, which is scary, scary feeling,

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Speaker 3: but so so cool. I mean, I I can't wait

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Speaker 3: to sort of keep watching. What is that? I wait,

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Speaker 3: I'm I just lost my place in my notes. I

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Speaker 3: was thinking of a specific movie that I had not

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Speaker 3: heard of before that I was really that I'm really

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Speaker 3: excited to watch.

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Speaker 1: For me, it was The Fast Runner.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that was what I was thinking of, which I

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Speaker 3: just had I mean, most or many of the movies

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Speaker 3: that they recommend throughout the documentary. I'd heard of it,

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Speaker 3: just not seen yet. But the Fast Runner I had

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Speaker 3: no idea existed, and it seems unfucking believably good. Like

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Speaker 3: I just am really excited to see it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's you know, it's interesting to me because this,

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Speaker 4: again is you're witnessing this narrative that Neil Diamond puts

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Speaker 4: down of you know, watching movies through an indigenous lens, right,

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Speaker 4: and how like I don't know if you guys want

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Speaker 4: to just jump into it, but like the thing that

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Speaker 4: gets me is like within the opening scenes, there's just

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Speaker 4: these kids sitting in a basement watching shoot them Up

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Speaker 4: cowboy movies and h and Neil said something along the

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Speaker 4: lines of we didn't realize we were the Indians, like

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Speaker 4: we were the bad guys. And that's like definitely a

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Speaker 4: thing I find for myself as somebody who grew up

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Speaker 4: relatively isolated in the mountains of Treaty six Territory in

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Speaker 4: so called Ilberta, Canada, that that was the outlet, you know,

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Speaker 4: So seeing yourself philified on screen but not even realizing

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Speaker 4: that it's the same thing but different, you know, Like

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Speaker 4: it was such an interesting experience to grow into myself

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Speaker 4: and then just be like, oh, that's absolutely not right,

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Speaker 4: and that speaks to a larger narrative, which I'm sure

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Speaker 4: we'll talk about today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, uh, let's take a quick break and then

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Speaker 1: we will be right back. So, yeah, let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: I will go through a recap as I as I

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Speaker 1: always do, just kind of like going through the different beats,

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Speaker 1: the points, the eras that this documentary covers. So we

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Speaker 1: meet the narrator who is also one of the directors.

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Speaker 1: His name is Neil Diamond. And it's not Neil Diamond,

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Speaker 1: the musician. It's Neil Diamond, the Cree Canadian filmmaker.

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Speaker 3: I was such a dufist and completely forgot there was

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Speaker 3: a different Neil Diamond that existed because I was telling

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Speaker 3: my boyfriend that. I was like, I watched this incredible documentary.

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Speaker 3: It's so good, you have to watch it. It's made

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Speaker 3: by this guy named Neil Diamond. He's like, am I

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Speaker 3: missing something? As like, what do you mean.

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Speaker 1: The musician Neil Diamond.

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Speaker 3: The superior Neil Diamond. As far as I'm concerned, because

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Speaker 3: I forgot the other one. Fuck it existed.

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Speaker 4: You're gonna make You're going to make all like the

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Speaker 4: middle aged women really upset rape, saying that.

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Speaker 3: Then Neil Hive is gonna come us.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So Neil talks about how he was raised on

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Speaker 1: a reservation near the Arctic Circle, which was one of

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Speaker 1: the most isolated places on Earth. He grew up watching

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Speaker 1: movies like you were just talking about essay. He grew

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Speaker 1: up watching movies that depicted Native people in often very

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Speaker 1: negative ways, and this inspires him to embark on a

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Speaker 1: journey from his reservation to Hollywood to examine Hollywood's representation

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Speaker 1: of Indians and how it shaped the cultural perception of them,

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Speaker 1: and of course Indians in this context referring to Indigits

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Speaker 1: and First Nations people who were here pre colonization of

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Speaker 1: what became known as North America, specifically the US and Canada.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay. So Neil's first stop is at the Black Hills,

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Speaker 1: once the domain of Chief Sitting Bowl and Tshunka wheat

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Speaker 1: Coo aka Crazy Horse. He goes to the place where

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Speaker 1: Crazy Horse outmaneuvered General Custer at the Battle of Little Bighorn,

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Speaker 1: which is something that has been depicted in several Hollywood

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Speaker 1: movies and which turned Crazy Horse into a legend as

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Speaker 1: far as like white America having a better sense of

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Speaker 1: who he was.

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Speaker 2: That was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. As I was watching the doc, I was trying

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Speaker 3: to square with like what I had been taught in

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Speaker 3: Massachusetts public schools, like how much history had I actually

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Speaker 3: learned and how far away from the truth. And it's

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Speaker 3: about as far as you could imagine, which but I

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Speaker 3: think Crazy Horse is one of the few indigenous figures

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Speaker 3: that I do specifically remember learning about incorrectly. But I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, okay, bad job school, but also.

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Speaker 4: Like really good job school, because you know, the erasure

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Speaker 4: is part of the narrative that keeps this like American exceptionalism.

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Speaker 4: You know, we deserve this land, we came here, we

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Speaker 4: fought for it. Yet yea such and so forth, And

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Speaker 4: that's clearly displayed in some of the movies that the

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Speaker 4: doc outlines that you know, definitely.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah, well we'll get to in the in the

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Speaker 3: like john Ford section in particular, but it's there's like

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Speaker 3: such a great quote that perfectly well we'll get.

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Speaker 1: There, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's also a mention of the

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Speaker 1: descendants of Crazy Horse and of the warriors who fought

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Speaker 1: alongside him present day live in pretty extreme poverty on

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Speaker 1: Pine Ridge Reservation. So just kind of like an examination

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Speaker 1: of this icon, this legend, and because of systemic racism

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Speaker 1: and oppression, the descendants living in poverty.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a system set up by designed dismantle entire nations

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Speaker 4: of people is also working and the thing behind that

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Speaker 4: that kind of speaks to you know, even with Neil

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Speaker 4: going to the Black Hills is interesting for me as

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Speaker 4: a Cree person and seeing him as a Cree person.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're told certain stories we're not even like

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Speaker 4: in school, we weren't even told stories about our own people,

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Speaker 4: you know, like we were. This is why this movie

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Speaker 4: is so amazing to me, is because it really caters

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Speaker 4: to this like like romanticization of like the Great West, right,

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Speaker 4: and you know, all of these noble natives, but we

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Speaker 4: had so many within our own nations. Like there's so

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Speaker 4: many different nations and so of Native people across these lands.

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Speaker 4: And the fact that he went to go talk about

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Speaker 4: this particular story because that is what the narrative is

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Speaker 4: in every single Hollywood movie up and to that point.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm excited to talk with you about that

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Speaker 3: because I think that like Neil Diamond being so forward

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Speaker 3: about that and being so forward about like being connected

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Speaker 3: with his history to an extent, but also have to

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Speaker 3: having to like unlearn and relearn in that whole process,

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Speaker 3: and also having like this attachment to the media you

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Speaker 3: grow up with and like, how do you you know,

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Speaker 3: unwire that and rewires? It sounds just like Herculean.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah for sure, Oh okay. So the documentary then

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Speaker 1: starts to go through era by era how Hollywood represented

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Speaker 1: Native people, starting with the silent film era, and while

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Speaker 1: that was happy in the late eighteen hundreds, where you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the first moving images ever to exist were

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Speaker 1: of Native people. While this was happening, the US Army

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Speaker 1: open fires on the last free community of Natives in

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Speaker 1: revenge for Little Bighorn, and three hundred Lakota people were

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Speaker 1: massacred at Wounded NY in eighteen ninety, and this tragedy

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Speaker 1: becomes fodder almost for the type of like drama and

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Speaker 1: myth and mythology that Hollywood loves to romanticize and make

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Speaker 1: movies about. So Neil discusses how Indians, for example, in movies,

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Speaker 1: are always shown as expert horseback riders, even though many

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Speaker 1: tribes and nations never rode horses, though there are some

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Speaker 1: who were expert and are expert horse riders, such as

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Speaker 1: as the Crow. And so Neil goes to the Crow

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Speaker 1: Agency in Montana and meets a crow stuntman named Rod Ronde,

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Speaker 1: who is an expert horseman and one of Hollywood's top

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Speaker 1: stunt people.

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Speaker 3: And just like the most charismatic person on the face

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Speaker 3: of the earth. That's so fucking cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he talks just about how important horses are to

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Speaker 1: Crow people. We go back to examining the silent film era.

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Speaker 1: Native characters were prominently featured in a lot of Silent

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Speaker 1: era movies, often as the hero, and many of those

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Speaker 1: films were written and directed by Native filmmakers.

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Speaker 3: I genuinely did not know that. I wish I had

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Speaker 3: been taught that in fucking film school.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's such a uh, that's a point of like

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Speaker 4: contempt for me for sure. You know, you see these

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Speaker 4: beautiful silent films that are depicting life and honesty, and

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Speaker 4: you see these people within the film, within these silent

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Speaker 4: films being authentic, and then all of a sudden, another

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Speaker 4: narrative needs to be written to back again the American exceptionalism,

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Speaker 4: like some already used that term, but like to be

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Speaker 4: like no, no, this is ours, you know, we need yeah,

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Speaker 4: this so we can't humanize the people that we need

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Speaker 4: to dehumanize to maintain our lie for the lack of a.

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Speaker 1: Better term, No, that's exactly what it is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And it just like felt like such a

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Speaker 3: clear I don't know, like it's just such a clear

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Speaker 3: example of like media representation being very nonlinear and like,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you, fifty years after these early silent films,

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Speaker 3: native representation is far worse, and like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: it was fascinating because I want to watch the watch

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Speaker 3: the silent films, but also discouraging to you know, just

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Speaker 3: see such a clear example of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The movie also mentions a prominent actor of this era.

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Speaker 1: His name was Chief Buffalo Child Longlands. He was the

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Speaker 1: star of a film called The Silent Enemy, among others,

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Speaker 1: and his life ended very tragically. He had disguised his

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Speaker 1: racial background. He was Native black and white, and when

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Speaker 1: people found out he was part black, he was shunned

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Speaker 1: by Hollywood and he died by suicide.

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Speaker 3: I had not heard of him before, and that's just

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Speaker 3: the intersectional racism in.

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Speaker 1: The US is astonishing. Then the documentary examines Hollywood creating

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Speaker 1: this magical, mystical idea of what it is to be native,

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Speaker 1: and how a lot of people, especially white people, romanticize

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Speaker 1: the idea of being native. And Neil tells us about

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Speaker 1: this certain type of like summer camp in North America.

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Speaker 1: I did not know that these existed, Oh I did,

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Speaker 1: It's I yeah, I don't. I just did not know

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Speaker 1: about this where it's mostly white kids go and adopt

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Speaker 1: this like perceived persona of what a native person is.

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Speaker 1: While they're at these camps, they play these like quote

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Speaker 1: unquote tribal games. It's all extremely appropriative, and it keeps

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Speaker 1: the idea of an Indian as a you know, quote

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Speaker 1: unquote noble savage alive and well. And Neil goes to

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Speaker 1: one such camp and he wonders if any of these

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Speaker 1: kids have ever even met a Native person, or if

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Speaker 1: their image and idea of natives only comes from what

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Speaker 1: they've seen in movies. And I would guess it's probably

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Speaker 1: the latter for most of them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know that lovely Austrian guy, I thank

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Speaker 4: you was Austrian. He was like, I basically learned everything

401
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Speaker 4: I needed to know from watching two to three films

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Speaker 4: about natives. I was like, oh that he got the

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Speaker 4: mentality of the natives through watching those movies, that they're

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Speaker 4: just like I understand them. Yeah, they're like these people

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Speaker 4: who love their community, but they can be savage when

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Speaker 4: they need to or whatever. And it's just like super cool.

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Speaker 4: I love this.

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Speaker 3: I love this for us And you can really tell

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Speaker 3: that that guy thinks he's doing something. Yeah, like thinks

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Speaker 3: he's being respectful. So I unfortunately, I never you know,

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Speaker 3: I think that because I grew up in Massachusetts. Your trip,

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Speaker 3: your like field trip is going to Plymouth Plantation. I

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Speaker 3: don't know how or if it has been updated whatsoever

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Speaker 3: in the you know, like twenty plus years it's been

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Speaker 3: since I took this field trip. But one of the

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Speaker 3: places that you're taken is to Camp Squanto, which is

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Speaker 3: very much in step. I don't because we were only

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Speaker 3: there for a day. I don't. The extremeness that you

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Speaker 3: see in the dock was not something that I experienced.

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Speaker 3: But I'm sure that that is the model that that's

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Speaker 3: built on.

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Speaker 4: There's so many too, and like I attribute that fully

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Speaker 4: to like the boy Scouts. You know, there's actually so

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Speaker 4: like the Kansas City Chiefs. The chiefs are actually named

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Speaker 4: after a man who Now I can't remember the name

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Speaker 4: of the tribe because I've like blocked this out of

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Speaker 4: my brain, but it's like a camp and it's a

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Speaker 4: tribe of Indians. I'll probably think of it later on

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Speaker 4: as we're talking about something completely different, but basically, it's

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Speaker 4: people who dress up and like non natives who dress

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Speaker 4: up and wear headdresses and go through all of these

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Speaker 4: protocols because they just revere our natives so much, right,

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Speaker 4: And it's so is there. I don't know if there's

434
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 4: a word for it, but like barfinduce is the term

435
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 4: that I'm going to go for. Yeah, fucking gross, it's gross.

436
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 4: But it's just like it's like it just turns my

437
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 4: stomach to see people dressing up and creating this narrative

438
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 4: of again, like this concept of what they want natives

439
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 4: to be and they want to play that, you know,

440
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 4: and it's just so vile, like.

441
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, refusing to learn anything about actual Native people and

442
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: culture and just like assuming some stuff and being like, well,

443
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,239
Speaker 1: I'm probably right about that.

444
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 4: Well, I mean again, you know, like every native is

445
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 4: a plain's native wearing a headdress in the great Southwest

446
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 4: of this noble country.

447
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: I know, and to see that like still pretty uncritically

448
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 3: presented to children who, to your point essay very well

449
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: may have never met a Native child before, and being

450
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,719
Speaker 3: taught that this is what Native culture was, and not

451
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: just that, but the fact that like it felt like

452
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: especially in at the camp where Neil went to and

453
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: I'm sure where I went to on that field trip,

454
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: like you're taught that this is a very respectful thing

455
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 3: that is being done. And meanwhile they're like this camp

456
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 3: Squanto exists in the middle of the miles standish you know,

457
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 3: state forest, and you're like, you know, I'm it's just

458
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: so clear what is happening. But like growing up, you know,

459
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 3: indoctrinated in that it the amount of unlearning is it's ridiculous.

460
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 4: But and it's just attaching a name. And that's the

461
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 4: thing that really gets me. It's like even the history

462
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 4: of Squanto, you know, the people don't take the time

463
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 4: to actually understand anything. They just want the culture without

464
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 4: the struggle, right, absolutely, whatever it's worth.

465
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, Let's take a quick break and then we'll

466
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: come back and go through the rest of the film. Okay,

467
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: so we left off talking about out these type of

468
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: summer camp then The doc examines films of like the thirties, forties, fifties,

469
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: where representation of Natives shifts from what it was in

470
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: the Silent era, where the movies where the Natives were

471
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: heroes were not box office successes. Generally, white audiences were

472
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: not interested in those stories. The stories they were interested

473
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: in were westerns where white men playing cowboys were the

474
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: heroes and Natives were portrayed as quote unquote savages, marauders,

475
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: you know, the enemy. So movies like Stagecoach starring John Wayne,

476
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: directed by John Ford.

477
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: Food to both these John's.

478
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, a movie that was incredibly damaging for Native people,

479
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: but like Hollywood used it as a blueprint more or

480
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: less for what a Western movie should be for years

481
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: and years to come. And so there's a discussion of

482
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: these movies representing Native people as uncivilized, you know, bloodthirsty killers.

483
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: It had people not speaking real languages. Often it was

484
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: English ran backwards. Clothing that the Native characters were wearing

485
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: was extremely inaccurate, not regionally or culturally specific.

486
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I'm interested to talk about the side quest

487
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 3: that Neil Diamond takes to talk to I think his

488
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: name is Richard LaMotte. The costume designer who is sort

489
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 3: of tasked with, yeah, with presenting presenting Native people over

490
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: the years and being like, yeah, this is like a

491
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: load of shit. The way that we that sequence was fascinating.

492
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 4: Again, it comes down to like this fetter cessation of

493
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 4: the plains India and the Indian and like the last

494
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 4: real conquest for like America, right, so like this is

495
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 4: the last true effort towards genocide. Like I mean, we

496
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 4: still are dealing with an ongoing genocide as Native people.

497
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 4: You know, racure is still very much a real thing.

498
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 4: And but I think about, like with some of the

499
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 4: filming by one of them, John's, both of them, John's

500
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 4: in the Southwest, I'm like, that's the home of like

501
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 4: the din people, the Navajos or like you know, Hope people,

502
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 4: and like they're all wearing headdresses and you know, to

503
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 4: your point, Caitlin, like it makes me l L because

504
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 4: there's these elder Navajo people talking about how they didn't

505
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 4: they would go off script and say things in the movie.

506
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 4: I like, I like live for this. I'm like, because

507
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 4: again I don't speak every language, I like barely speak

508
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 4: three four, but like I barely speak four. I'm really

509
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 4: trying you guys, but yeah, it's uh, it's one of

510
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 4: my favorite like delicious nuggets to just think, like in

511
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 4: some of those movies, how they were responding to these

512
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 4: white actors that were so serious about their craft.

513
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 3: That was such a wonderful sequence when yeah, when Neil

514
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: Diamond goes to visit two actors who had been in

515
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: John Wayne movies but had never seen the movies, and

516
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: we're telling him, you know, the behind the scenes details

517
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 3: of like how poorly they were treated, how dismissively their

518
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: culture was treated, but then translating what the native actors

519
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: were saying, You're a snake crawling in your own shit.

520
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 4: I love it so much like a sixern.

521
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: And then cut back to the white actor being like, no,

522
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: we will not Yeah.

523
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 4: You are wrong, We are not great. Can I tell

524
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 4: you guys a story, like just to kind of a

525
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: side off of that, just so people think I'm a

526
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 4: really nice person or a main person either way.

527
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: Perfect.

528
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 4: People ask me all the time, how do you say

529
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 4: this in your language? Or like how do you how

530
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 4: do you say that in your language? Like so, how

531
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 4: do you say hello? Or how do you say the

532
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 4: color blue? Right? So people will ask me and I'd

533
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 4: be like I always say like namulia and patakoa, and

534
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 4: they're like, okay, cool, cool, right, that's how you say hello.

535
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 4: And then somebody would be like, hey, how do you

536
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 4: say frog Namulia and pataka wa? Or like how do

537
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: you say thank you? Oh na mulia and patacoa? And

538
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 4: this is an on running bit I just have for

539
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 4: myself to bring me joy because I just have a

540
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 4: feeling that one day one of these like well meaning

541
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 4: white people will go to like a neheio cree elder

542
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 4: or like a machif may tea elder and say namulia

543
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 4: and pataka wa and that translates to that is not

544
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 4: a potato. And I just really like, I know that

545
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 4: that elder is gonna laugh, like I know that the

546
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 4: person they're saying it to you is just gonna laugh.

547
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 4: And I'm like, this is me too, my part to

548
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 4: help with language resurgents that that's technically in machif, but

549
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 4: like machiff is a makeup of like nehioiwin on a

550
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 4: Shanabic Scottish slang in French, because it's like our people

551
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 4: were an amalgamation of these fur traders and the indigenous

552
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 4: people coming together and creating our own language and protocols,

553
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 4: and it's a beautiful thing to me. But I also

554
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 4: like the idea of just somebody walking around saying that

555
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 4: is not a potato.

556
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: It's a great bit.

557
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

558
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: It's just also like the perfect like a perfect amount

559
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 3: of disarming as it's.

560
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 4: Like, I'm not it's not mean, like.

561
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 3: It's so stupid.

562
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 4: Language is important, you guys. Yeah, that's a.

563
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 3: Top shelf bit. That's great.

564
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: Okay. So the documentary is also exploring how in a

565
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: lot of these Westerns from this era of like thirties, forties, fifties,

566
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: you had white actors playing native characters. Often their skin

567
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: was painted.

568
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 4: Full brown face.

569
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

570
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 4: I like when the whites of the eyes are so white.

571
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 4: Oh my god, my favorite.

572
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 3: It's it's disgusting. And I also appreciated when someone's like

573
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 3: it's just like you have to laugh.

574
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, You're like, you're like, this is what they did.

575
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 4: This is the best they could do, and good for them.

576
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 4: They tried so hard.

577
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: Embarrassing.

578
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: I was on the fact that Clint Eastwood shows up

579
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 3: in this documentary and like sort of like sir, I.

580
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: Found that surprising, wo, because his politics are.

581
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 4: I think this is like this, Well, given this is

582
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 4: thirteen years ago, this is pre Hymn thinking. I think

583
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 4: there's a certain era in the last decade that we

584
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 4: can all kind of lean to that allowed all of

585
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 4: these really cool people to have their really cool opinions

586
00:35:58,920 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 4: out loud.

587
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 3: True, it's true. A lot of people have been really

588
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 3: laid bare, not gonna lie it was. It is a

589
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: jump scare to see Clint Eastwood in a documentary where

590
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 3: you're not prepared. I mean, I'm just never prepared to

591
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: see him.

592
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: But right, you also have you know, white characters, cowboys

593
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: killing Native characters being glorified and celebrated in these movies.

594
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: Native women are more or less absent in westerns and

595
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: Hollywood cinema in general, with the exception of the you know,

596
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: young Indigenous princess epitomized by Pocahontas. Then the documentary talks

597
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: about one of Hollywood's most famous Native actors, Ironized Cody,

598
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: who turns out was not Native. His parents were immigrants

599
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: from Sicily, but he adopted a Native persona both on

600
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: and off screen, and lived his entire life like that,

601
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: and adopted Native children as well.

602
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 4: He was married to a Native woman and had adopted

603
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 4: her children. I believe I don't know a lot about

604
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 4: him other than you know, our protocols are really different

605
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 4: in each community, and so like you know, if he

606
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 4: was adopted into whatever tribe whatever by those people, those

607
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 4: are their protocols. That's their sovereignty, sovereigntry, it's their sovereign right. Sorry,

608
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 4: it's hard for me say that, to break him in

609
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 4: and adopt him as one of their own. For me,

610
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 4: I have a really hard time wrapping my head around

611
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 4: these things, just because a lot of Native people aren't

612
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 4: given that same proximity. And he was an actor, and

613
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 4: he was acting Indian. But you know, to be that

614
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 4: obtuse to believe that you are that. You know, he

615
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 4: sought out the he sought out the trauma as much

616
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 4: as he sought out the victories that he received in

617
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 4: his career. I was actually just in la and I

618
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 4: went to the Hollywood Forever Cemetery and I saw that

619
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 4: he was buried there, and I was just not, Yeah,

620
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 4: it's a point of anger for me personally, because while

621
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 4: I want to respect the protocols of the people that

622
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 4: may have adopted him in or believe him to be

623
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 4: one of them, his son included who's featured in the documentary.

624
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 4: It's something that you know, is a very nuanced topic

625
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: when it comes to cultural protocols and who is an

626
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 4: indigenous based on our individual communities and our sovereignty. So

627
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: but I still don't like him. So I just you know,

628
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 4: that's my prerogative. And I might get hate for that

629
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 4: from some people, but I don't really care about that

630
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 4: because I'm just like super frustrated the fact that it

631
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 4: does still take away opportunities from people. And he also

632
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 4: catered to the fetishization and the romance cessation of this

633
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 4: specific type of Indian And I mean, I understand it

634
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 4: certain eras in history of this nation that Italian Americans

635
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 4: were treated very poorly, but they got Columbus Day.

636
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 5: So it's like you, I think it's like you can

637
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 5: hold the discrimination that he experienced as a Sicilian and

638
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 5: be like it doesn't make anything he did afterwards.

639
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: Like especially because to your to your point essay, like

640
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: I think one of the at least for like my parents' generation,

641
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 3: one of the most you know, iconically false images of

642
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 3: indigenous people they have is Ironized Cody, the single tier.

643
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 4: Commercial And I mean I cry every time I see

644
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 4: someone litter, so.

645
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 3: Like, oh my fucking like getting into twenty thousand stereotypes

646
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: all at once, and then on top of that, for

647
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 3: the actor to have not been native at all, Like.

648
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 4: It's a bit of a gut punch. But again, like

649
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 4: that's the thing with like being native and being from

650
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 4: particular nations. You know, we have our own protocols when

651
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 4: it comes to adoption or recognition. And I mean, my

652
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 4: people didn't adopt him, so I don't really like I

653
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 4: still get to have my my free space to be like, well,

654
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 4: I believe in their sovereignty, but I respect native protocol

655
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 4: and native law. I don't respect people who take advantage

656
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 4: of it. Put it that way.

657
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's very.

658
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 4: Fair, especially for monetary purposes. And yeah, the fact that

659
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 4: in the documentary they even say that, you know, in

660
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 4: his home it was all just pictures of him dressed

661
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 4: up as an Indian and watching his own films, and

662
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 4: like that's a certain type of narcissist and like yeah,

663
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 4: and like that's to the level of like that's that

664
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 4: I think there might be like I'm not diagnosing, but

665
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 4: there might be some like mental health needs that aren't

666
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 4: being met there either. When you want to believe that's

667
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 4: so bad that you surround yourself by it, right.

668
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and we it started to feel I

669
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: don't know. I was reading his he passed in ninety nine, Yeah,

670
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 3: and I just wanted to read how he was represented

671
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 3: in you know, big public. What's the article they write

672
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: when you die?

673
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 4: Obituary?

674
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. Anyways, fuck the New York Times. But

675
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 3: the New York Times wrote what felt like kind of

676
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 3: a shady headline ironized code ninety four an actor and

677
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 3: tearful anti littering icon So no mention of indigenous lineage,

678
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 3: because that was not true. I don't know that was Yeah,

679
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,479
Speaker 3: I did not know.

680
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 4: I was.

681
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 3: I knew his again. I think like speaks to why

682
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: this documentary is so valuable, Like I knew his image

683
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 3: and I didn't know that story.

684
00:41:54,440 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, speaking of non native people, appropriate iconography and culture,

685
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: perfect transition, Thank you so much. The documentary then moves

686
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: into the nineteen sixties and seventies, where the idea of

687
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: Native people became a symbol in the hippie movement, where

688
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: there was lots of appropriation by mostly white people dressing

689
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: like Native people, adopting the kind of like perceived free

690
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: spirit quote unquote mentality, but of course doing all of

691
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: that very inaccurately. And then also around this time, some

692
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: movies that were coming out seemed to be more sympathetic

693
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: to the plight of the Native people. In some movies

694
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: we see Indians fight back against injustice, which was also

695
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: happening in the real world. Where at Wounded KNY in

696
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: nineteen seven three, the American Indian Movement faced off against

697
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: the FBI and help came from an unexpected source, Hollywood.

698
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 1: And then Neil meets Sashine Little Feather. We hear the

699
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: story of how Marlon Brando arranged to have her accept

700
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: his Academy Award for The Godfather as a statement to say,

701
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: look at all the harm Hollywood has done against Native people.

702
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: And so Sashine received this award on stage, she was

703
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: planning to give a longer speech. The producer of the

704
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: Academy Awards prohibited it and said, like, if you go,

705
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: if you talk for longer than a minute, you will

706
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: be arrested and taken away in handcuffs.

707
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

708
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 4: So fun fact about that is it took years, years

709
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 4: and years, decades for Sashin to be apologized to for

710
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 4: being put in that situation. The amount of hate that

711
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 4: that woman received in her years of life is astronomically high,

712
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 4: and I couldn't imagine having to carry that for so long.

713
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 4: But the rumor is that John Wayne was so pissed

714
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 4: off when she was up there that he went to

715
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 4: rush the stage and people had to hold him back.

716
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I also read that, which is just like,

717
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: I don't know.

718
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 4: It's jarring, you know. And the thing is, she did

719
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 4: refuse the award on behalf of Marlon Brando. That's the

720
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 4: other side of things, right, So it's such an insult

721
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 4: to this very prestigious community of Hollywood, you know, actors

722
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 4: and elitists.

723
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's it's fucking disgusting. Though I don't

724
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: know everything I've heard about John I had no attachment

725
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 3: to John Wayne whatsoever, because I think that was one

726
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: of the rare points my parents were like, no, these

727
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 3: movies don't just fucking suck. They're also really boring and

728
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 3: we're not watching them. But I mean, just everything attached

729
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 3: to his image feels entrenched in hatred and violence, like

730
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: just a really vile icon.

731
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 4: Even the clip that they showed of one of the

732
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 4: movies and he refers to a man and like, I

733
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 4: don't even repeat it because it's so vulgar, but like

734
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 4: he he refers to another brown man as a blanket head,

735
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 4: like it just made it makes me sick, like you know,

736
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 4: and I'm just like, and this was this was normal?

737
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 4: Like when did this? When was this normal? Like why

738
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: is this normal? And again it was vilifying into humanizing

739
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 4: entire demographics of people to ensure that white Americans were

740
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 4: deserving of this.

741
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: Land absolutely vile, fucking gross, and then seeing the I

742
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 3: thought it was really smart in that it just makes

743
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: this community look so foolish. When Neil Diamond stops off

744
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 3: at like whatever the John Wayne fan club, oh group,

745
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 3: because there's like all the userstic old men being like

746
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: there's no such thing as a bad John Wait, You're like,

747
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 3: oh my god.

748
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 4: And they're all doing their impression and the walk, and

749
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 4: I'm just like like, if that's your hero, like I'm losers.

750
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 3: It really is, like it was a really spectacular display

751
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 3: of fucking losers with no critical thinking skills.

752
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 4: So though I did really enjoy when Neil like just

753
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 4: real hard cut for this documentary, When Neil Diamond was like, yeah,

754
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 4: I'll take the draw with the fastest shooter and he's

755
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 4: like count to four and Neil just had four. I'm like,

756
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 4: that's my guy right there.

757
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 3: He's not going rocks. I really. I just love when like,

758
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 3: communities that are so removed for reality are I'm just like,

759
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 3: I'm not even going to provoke them. Let's just let

760
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: them talk and they will incriminate themselves just by being themselves.

761
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 3: Gross gross, gross loser shit.

762
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, So also around this time in history, the

763
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: documentary examined that some movies portray Native characters as being

764
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: more multi dimensional than they had been previously represented. Some

765
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: of them even start to dismantle some of the stereotypes.

766
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: Some of them show the humor of Native people. Some

767
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: examples include Will Sampson as the character of Chief in

768
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Chief Dan George in

769
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: The Outlaw Josie Wales. There's discussion of how humor kept

770
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: Indians alive, and you know, just levity and being able

771
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 1: to laugh and experience joy that help them keep going.

772
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's honestly one thing that I think is synonymous

773
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 4: with Again, you know, I don't know everything about every

774
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 4: Native nation on these lands. But one thing I know

775
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 4: that brings us all together is laughing. And there's no

776
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 4: better sound than making an auntie or an uncle just

777
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 4: gut laugh.

778
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: You know.

779
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 4: And that's what we strive to do. It's just tease

780
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 4: and make fun and all of that and finding humor

781
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 4: and things is like honestly paramount to our thrival as people.

782
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 4: It's the one thing that's pulled us out of the

783
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 4: darkest times, you know, and seeing that conveyed on screen

784
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 4: is such an incredible thing.

785
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really loved I'd seen his the set that

786
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 3: they show of Charlie Hills from the seventies at the beginning.

787
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: I'd seen it before, and like, I just I really,

788
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 3: he's so cool. And it also it like is feels

789
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: like demonstrative of all of this prejudice against Native people

790
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 3: that he didn't have a fucking gigantic career and like

791
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 3: it wasn't you know, like Eddie Murphy, like Steve Martin

792
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 3: Lovel's of famous because he's so talented, but just like

793
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 3: the you of his work and then also in like

794
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 3: clips of him at the time throughout or just like

795
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: he's just so funny. He's such a good comic.

796
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 4: And it's it feels gentle too. Like that's the other

797
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 4: thing too, it's like gentle humor where it's like silly

798
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 4: but also like a little like pokey. But still you

799
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 4: know it's in jest. It's good, like it's not you know,

800
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 4: I think that's special. Wasn't it on the Richard Pryor

801
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 4: Show or something?

802
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 3: I believe?

803
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 4: So, yeah, yeah, he gave him that space to be

804
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 4: able to come and do that. I love that so much.

805
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 3: I thought, yeah, God, I want to learn more about Charliehill.

806
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 3: But yeah he did. He Richard Pryor sort of put

807
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 3: him on for the first time, and then he went

808
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 3: on to do SATs on Carson and then Letterman and like,

809
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: but Richard Pryor got and started, which I was like,

810
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 3: fuck yeah, Richard.

811
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: Love it. Thanks. Then the documentary is like, now it's

812
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: time to talk about Dances with Wolves.

813
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 3: Come to to the table. Children. I still have not

814
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 3: seen Dances with Wolves.

815
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 4: You only need to see it for the incredible force

816
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 4: that is Graham Green, absolute childhood hero. He's touched every

817
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 4: level of entertainment that I enjoy. He's hosted like Cold

818
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 4: Case File shows like he's done all sorts of stuff,

819
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 4: and I'm just like, I could just listen to that

820
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 4: man talk forever and also look at him because he's

821
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 4: a cutie.

822
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 3: He's so damn handsome, relious. He's real, he's real handsome. Yeah,

823
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 3: Dove Charger. I think I first saw Graham Green and

824
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 3: die Hard with a vengeance question Mark.

825
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: Oh so pride that you have seen that movie, Jamie.

826
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 3: I think it was on TNT and I was sick

827
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 3: or something. I don't know how else Diehard this is happening,

828
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 3: but that was that was my intro to Green.

829
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 4: Oh so good? Yeah, no, that is it's for Dances

830
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 4: as Wolves, like definitely worth the Graham greenism so there

831
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 4: at his facial acting and just how talented he is.

832
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: The doc talks about how this was a movie told

833
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: from a white lens about a white man, where Native

834
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: characters are still you know, mostly like periphery backdrop characters,

835
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: but those characters being more nuanced and fleshed out than

836
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: had previously been seen in Hollywood, and again calling particular

837
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 1: attention to Graham Green's performance, and because Dances with Wolves

838
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 1: was a box office success, from that came similar movies

839
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: that kind of ushered in more positive representation of Indigenous

840
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: people on screen, followed by a renaissance where the voices

841
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: of Native filmmakers and artists were finally allowed to be

842
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: seen and heard in Hollywood. So this is where you

843
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: have movies like Smoke Signals, directed by Chris Ayre. We

844
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 1: covered it on the podcast Not Long Ago. And then

845
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: Neil Diamond arrives in Hollywood. He meets with actor Adam Beach,

846
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: who was one of the stars of Smoke Signals.

847
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 3: What a fun final destination too, right, And then I

848
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 3: went to Adam Beach's house, right, Hell, yeah, that sounds.

849
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 4: Great, Like just like, and I can tell you the future,

850
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 4: you will be slipknot in the really really bad Suicide

851
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 4: Squad movie for five seconds.

852
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that was him.

853
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 4: No. I was so bummed because like he hit a

854
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 4: woman in that and I was like, ah, we can't

855
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 4: have anything. Like. I was just so upset.

856
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 3: I didn't know that was him. Oh no, it was

857
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,959
Speaker 3: my god. I still haven't seen the Power of the Dog,

858
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 3: but I know that was that the last big thing

859
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 3: he was in. I still haven't seen it. I'm bad

860
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 3: at watching movies, So you guys.

861
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: It's okay. And then Neil Diamond returns to Igluluk in

862
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: Northern Canada, talks about a revolutionary Inuit movie called The

863
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: Fast Runner from two thousand and one, which was very

864
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 1: much a Native movie told from a Native perspective. Neil

865
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: meets with the director, Zacharias Kunik, and there's a discussion

866
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: about how that movie ushered in a new wave of

867
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: film where the gaze and perspective was fully indigenous. And

868
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 1: that's pretty much where the movie ends, where it's just

869
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: basically ending on a positive note of like things are

870
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: looking up and representation continues to be more and more

871
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: meaningful and prevalent and positive and.

872
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 3: The last I mean. According to scholarly journal Wikipedia, Neil

873
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: Diamond and Zacharias Kunuk hit it off to the extent

874
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 3: that I'm like, I don't know if it's going to happen,

875
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 3: because it says as of April twenty eleven, Diamond is

876
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 3: developing a project with Inuit filmmaker Zacharias Kanok about the

877
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 3: eighteenth century conflict between create an Inuit which lasted almost

878
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 3: a century, which I hope comes out someday. I would

879
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 3: really like to see that. Yeah, But I like that

880
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 3: they connected and are collaborating.

881
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, that also like speaks to something that you know,

882
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 4: as Native people, like we probably hear more often than not,

883
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 4: like with when it comes to war or like taking

884
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 4: the land. Right when people were coming here that weren't

885
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 4: from these lands, It's like, well, the Native people fought

886
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 4: with each other. I'm like, yeah, we did, Like we

887
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 4: weren't these like peaceful beings just wandering around, you know,

888
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 4: doing whatever. But I really appreciate that, you know, even

889
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 4: the stories of our nations are being shared to where

890
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 4: we are now. Like you know, I have a cousin

891
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 4: who's Blackfoot and Korean Blackfoot. We had a few battles

892
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 4: kick their one time, real good. But like, you know,

893
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 4: other than that, I'm like, it's like these these are

894
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 4: formative to our relationships now. And that also draws a

895
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 4: point for me that I kind of wanted to bring

896
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 4: up today, is I love history. I love history of

897
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 4: Native people. I love people understand I love non natives

898
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 4: and natives of course, learning the history of these lands

899
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 4: and how the people interact with them. But I crave

900
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 4: and pine for contemporary cinema. I'm so tired of the

901
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 4: rhetoric of like natives as a thing of the past,

902
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 4: like I have not yet seen Killers of the Flower Moon.

903
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm going to see it. I'm

904
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 4: so glad that the Osage had to say in that movie,

905
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 4: and from what I've read, you know, like the actors

906
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,399
Speaker 4: did such a phenomenal job in it, and it is

907
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 4: what it was supposed to be for a movie directed

908
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 4: by Scorsese. That that being said, it's a history lesson.

909
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 4: Where's the modern day lesson of why Native people or

910
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 4: in the situations therein? Why are they still living on

911
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 4: reservations or reserves? Why are they still experiencing poverty? Why

912
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 4: is there a reservation in Canada that's decades in of

913
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 4: not having clean water? You know, like there needs to

914
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 4: be something modern to tell our story, not.

915
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,760
Speaker 3: Just the history, which seems like is being done more

916
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 3: in the TV space absolutely then in film. Right now,

917
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 3: it would be like that should be represented across mediums.

918
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 3: I think that there is. I don't remember if it

919
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 3: was like Chris Ayir talking about his own movie, but

920
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 3: like Smoke Signals being successful felt like such a huge

921
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 3: deal because there were so few movies about contemporary Native

922
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 3: life that actually became national successes.

923
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: There's a chunk in the documentary where because again it's

924
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: going through sort of like decade by decade of like

925
00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 1: here were the trends of Native representation in Hollywood in

926
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: each decade there's voiceover where it's like in the nineteen eighties,

927
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: Westerns went out of style, and so it wasn't until

928
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: the nineties again when with Dances of Wolves the Western

929
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: came back, and it's just like, oh, Hollywood just couldn't

930
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: think of any other genres that Native people could be

931
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: in because Westerns went out of style for a decade

932
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: or so that they just Native people were not included

933
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: in like Hollywood movies, and it's like.

934
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 3: The eighties, you're just like what I was.

935
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 4: Born in the I was born in the eighties, and

936
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 4: Natives were still there in the eighties.

937
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: I mean, this is actually something I had to unlearn

938
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: because every Native person I saw depicted in a movie,

939
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: like when I was watching them as a kid, even

940
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: into my teen years and stuff like that were movies

941
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: either about first contact, the settlers coming in making first contact,

942
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: or like westward expansion times. Either way, it was like

943
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: centuries ago, nothing in the modern era, which like does

944
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: so much to erase Native people from the modern world

945
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: to the point where I was like, Native people exist

946
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: alongside me right now, and like for a long time,

947
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: like growing up in a very like homogeneous white, like

948
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: conservative small town area not being around or seeing any

949
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: Native people, I was like, Oh, they must be a

950
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: thing of the past.

951
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 3: Which, weirdly, Jim Jarmush made that point, Okay, I was like,

952
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 3: why is Jim Jarmush here? It wasn't clear on it,

953
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 3: but I was like, I like what he's saying. But

954
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 3: who invited him?

955
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 4: He just shows up? He's just like he's.

956
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 3: Ready, did he just wander in? Like what? But he

957
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 3: had like a kind of a good quote that when

958
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 3: he was but he was talking about the coming out

959
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 3: of the Silent era of how particularly once native directors, writers,

960
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 3: actors who were portraying their own stories, once that was

961
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 3: phased out pretty effectively during the Great Depression, that there

962
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 3: was this distinct sort of cultural shift moving into the

963
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 3: John Wayne years of portraying Native people as if they

964
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,919
Speaker 3: no longer existed, and that that was like a distinct moment.

965
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 4: Or if they were in the way, they were in

966
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 4: the way of progression. And that's really like what I

967
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 4: think most of the John Wayne era movies just did

968
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 4: or they had to fulfill a trope. That's the other thing,

969
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 4: you know that really gets me is like we can

970
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 4: kind of dissect some of these two, but like everything

971
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 4: from Pocahontas to like billy Jack. Still have such a

972
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 4: week I have, like I have such a soft spot

973
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 4: for that movie, and I need.

974
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 3: Someone to explain billy Jack to me.

975
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 4: It's a cool kung fu Indian. Okay, where's some really

976
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 4: big hat with a great cat band and that's all

977
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 4: you need to know.

978
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 3: I don't understand billy Jack conceptually.

979
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 4: But it's I don't know why I love that movie

980
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 4: so much. I'm just like, it's because it's so terrible

981
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 4: that I'm like, Okay, this can pass, Like this passes

982
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 4: my checklist of like just ridiculousness. But the thing is

983
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 4: natives always have to fulfill a trope, right because if

984
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 4: we aren't performing the way that people want us to perform, act,

985
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 4: look speak And that even goes back to like they

986
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 4: talked about the Tanto speech like talk them speech that

987
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 4: stuff like I still can't remember. It's like on the

988
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 4: tip of my Miko s tribe. If y'all want to

989
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 4: do a Google search at some point, yeah, it's run

990
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 4: by like it's an offshoot of the Boy Scouts and

991
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 4: they actually have a podcast called like Talcum or something

992
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 4: like that where it's like we make them talk like

993
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 4: they do that type of garbage, Like that type of

994
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 4: speech is like if we're not fulfilling these compartments of

995
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 4: what people think natives should be, and it's like so

996
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 4: difficult to differentiate tribes or it's so difficult to whatever.

997
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 4: We don't exist to you, right, And that's the part

998
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 4: that makes me really sad, is like it's too much work,

999
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 4: I think part of it. And not to get super

1000
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 4: deep on y'all today, but like the acknowledgment by Hollywood,

1001
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 4: that's why all of the movies made by white directors

1002
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 4: are still things of the past, is because the moment

1003
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 4: that that acknowledgment happens, that we were genocided, continued to

1004
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 4: be victims of genocide, modern day genocide, with erasure and

1005
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 4: disclusion in so many things. The moment that any powerful entity,

1006
01:01:53,680 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 4: even Hollywood, acknowledges who we are as people outside of

1007
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 4: their lens is that we exist today, acknowledges all the

1008
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 4: atrocities they committed against us, and then completely severs their

1009
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 4: their self appointed right to land. What do they call it? Resources?

1010
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 4: Like people? Like again people, and that goes back to

1011
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 4: even like Pocahontas, Like you know, her name wasn't even Pocahontas.

1012
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 4: It was like as starts with the ms like Matoka, Makota,

1013
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 4: like I can't say again, I don't speak all the

1014
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 4: other languages, but you know, it's it's expected that she

1015
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 4: was between nine and eleven years old. She died twenty one.

1016
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, like after being essentially kidnapped like yes.

1017
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 4: And human trafficked, you know, Like but again this concept

1018
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 4: I'll never forget actually talking about cinema with my Like

1019
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 4: my dad he had picked me up after your's personal

1020
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 4: stuf after a visitation right with my mom when I

1021
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 4: was a kid. She lived in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and

1022
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 4: we lived in Rocky Mountain House, Alberta, Canada. And my

1023
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 4: dad had picked me up and he took me to

1024
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 4: what task go in? Also crea name there you go.

1025
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 4: He took me to Task go in after he picked

1026
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 4: me up to go take me to the movies because

1027
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 4: like I always had a hard time leaving my mom's

1028
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 4: and it was always very interesting dynamic growing up. But

1029
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 4: we went to go see Poconnas. And I will tell

1030
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 4: you my dad was like a BFI, which I actually

1031
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 4: call a big fucking Indian. Like he was just big

1032
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 4: and brown and he was when you got a BFI angry.

1033
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 4: It was hilarious. But he he was so mad. He

1034
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 4: was mad. He's like, she they made it seem like

1035
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:43,600
Speaker 4: she was a trader to the people, and they made

1036
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 4: her sexy and all of these things, and he was

1037
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 4: all upset about it. And I'm just like, go home

1038
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 4: and mad. Did I get a lecture on the way home?

1039
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 4: Like not to be like that? Wow, it was pretty surreal.

1040
01:03:56,560 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 3: That's fine. I'm twelve, Like, but I mean, I I

1041
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 3: that movie. God, that movie came out when I think

1042
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 3: I was like two or three years old, with the

1043
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 3: first movie I remember seeing, and I was fucking obsessed

1044
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 3: with it, and it like in a formative way that

1045
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 3: like certainly was not challenged in the way that I

1046
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 3: was schooled or grew up. I didn't grow up knowing

1047
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 3: Native kids or Native families. And that movie. I think

1048
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 3: that that movie, I think it's interesting. It seems like

1049
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 3: every generation there is a hugely successful movie that wildly

1050
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 3: misrepresents and insults Native history that has a huge, huge

1051
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 3: impact on just media in general, and Pocahontas was certainly

1052
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 3: that movie for me. And so then when I think

1053
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 3: I was in high school, when I had a great

1054
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 3: history teacher who sort of spoke to all of the

1055
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 3: wild historical inaccuracies that are presented in at that point

1056
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 3: extremely famous movie, that was sort of my first indication

1057
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 3: that you know, this story that I literally was like

1058
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 3: one of my first conscious memories was completely false and

1059
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 3: not just and falls in a dangerous way.

1060
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 4: There's like a I think there's a level of discomfort

1061
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 4: too with again, like these these movies being portrayed the

1062
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 4: way that people want us to be or want to

1063
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 4: see us as natives. And I have a lot of

1064
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 4: empathy considering the things I've experienced in my life, but

1065
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 4: one of them is like I can't imagine what it

1066
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 4: feels like to know that everything you believed is bullshit.

1067
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 4: And that must be really difficult because you're like, wow,

1068
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 4: like starting from ground zero to learn things. And while

1069
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 4: it's a super beautiful process, there's a lot of people

1070
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 4: that get stunted in that and decide that they don't

1071
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 4: want to actually put in work or listen or change

1072
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 4: that narrative shifted even a little bit in their brains

1073
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 4: because there's discomfort associated with that and the discomfort that

1074
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 4: people feel from realizing that. And again I'll just talk about.

1075
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 4: What we're talking about is movies that the way that

1076
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 4: natives have been betrayed is not true or not necessarily true.

1077
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 4: Like it's just a fragment of the discomfort we have

1078
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 4: felt as people since the onset of colonization. So like,

1079
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 4: I mean not that you know, tit for tad. I

1080
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 4: would never wish real negative things on anybody because I

1081
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 4: don't want to put that out into the universe. But

1082
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 4: what I would say is with discomfort comes growth, right,

1083
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 4: and so like reevaluating our lens, no pun intended, as

1084
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 4: we see people through this like talking box, like there's

1085
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 4: my Indians speak for the day talking box Like so

1086
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be I'm gonna be blacklisted for that one.

1087
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:01,919
Speaker 4: But like, but no, like through any talking box, whether

1088
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 4: it be your phone, whether it be your TV, whether

1089
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 4: it be your computer, how we see things portrayed is

1090
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 4: somebody's narrative. If they haven't experienced it, how genuine can

1091
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 4: it be? You know? And so that's why I'm so

1092
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 4: glad with this, like again regaissance that they're talking about

1093
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 4: thirteen years ago. At the end of this documentary, we're

1094
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 4: seeing it happen slowly but surely, Like a great film

1095
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 4: came out recently called Slashback, and I'm obsessed with it.

1096
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 4: I will watch that movie like so often because it

1097
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 4: touches on everything that I would want it to touch on.

1098
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 4: And I'm not like a knook. I'm not from there.

1099
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 4: I don't experience those things. But to see like syllabics

1100
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 4: and to see language and to see face markings, it

1101
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 4: all like just makes sense to me, Like they went

1102
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 4: to that village and they taught kids how to act.

1103
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 4: Like that's so great, you know. I'm so glad that

1104
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 4: things like this are happening now that we get to

1105
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 4: tell authentic versions of ourselves. And it might make people uncomfortable,

1106
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 4: they might not understand it, but that's okay too, because

1107
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 4: again it doesn't have to be for everyone. But it's

1108
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 4: also going back to what I said, like there's going

1109
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 4: to be discomfort and knowing the things that you believe

1110
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 4: to be true.

1111
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:20,639
Speaker 1: Aren't and I mean speaking more to that. This episode

1112
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 1: is coming out the week of Thanksgiving, if not on

1113
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: the day, and the narrative that I learned in history

1114
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: class in elementary school about what Thanksgiving was just being

1115
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: so bogus and so rewritten to favor the colonizer's side

1116
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 1: of the story and to say, oh, no, there wasn't

1117
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 1: a genocide. It was us all getting along and that's

1118
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 1: there was a feast and it was nice.

1119
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 4: But then the Indians turned on us.

1120
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:00,520
Speaker 3: Right, literally what I learned and right that myth includes

1121
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 3: like five different popular stereotypes around Native people, Like in

1122
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 3: one story that a lot of kids learn when they're

1123
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:13,640
Speaker 3: two three years old, it's fucking ridiculous, And I like,

1124
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 3: just like conditions you into a colonizer mindset when you're

1125
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 3: too young to even realize what that is or what

1126
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 3: that means. And I feel it is like especially because

1127
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 3: the I mean, the Internet is fucking evil, has great

1128
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 3: potential for you know, it like has surely ruined our

1129
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 3: mental health forever. However, it is like I feel like

1130
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 3: speaking to your point essay about like it's like your

1131
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 3: responsive I don't know, like if if you were brought

1132
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 3: up with a colonizer mindset, you have the tools to

1133
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:50,719
Speaker 3: unlearn it in a way that like no other generation

1134
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 3: or point in history that has it been more true

1135
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 3: that you have the tools to be able to unlearn it.

1136
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 3: And it's I feel like it's like your responsibility to

1137
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 3: do it, even even if it's uncomfortable. Who gives a shit?

1138
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 4: Like it's and I think too. And one of the

1139
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 4: things that I've come up against in a lot of

1140
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 4: my like whether I'm doing like community work or supporting

1141
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 4: people or I don't know, like get it. Like I

1142
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,479
Speaker 4: hate to say what I do is work because like

1143
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:19,160
Speaker 4: I don't consider it work. But in education, like I

1144
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 4: feel really bad sometimes when people are like, you know,

1145
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 4: I want to talk to Native people, I want to

1146
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 4: find things out, and they're very apprehensive to talk to me.

1147
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:28,000
Speaker 4: I'm like, well, rightfully, so, you know. But at the

1148
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 4: same time, I'm like, there's got to be a level

1149
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:35,520
Speaker 4: of like, I don't mind talking to people about my experiences.

1150
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 4: I can only speak to my own experiences. And that's why,

1151
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 4: you know, I specialize in very specific areas of Native

1152
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 4: history and then how that affects us in modern times

1153
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 4: with you know, residential schools and the scoop and all

1154
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 4: of that. Actually that reminds me just to go back.

1155
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:54,839
Speaker 4: There was one of those Thomas Edison Films was Indian

1156
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:58,679
Speaker 4: Day School and it was like in right before nineteen hundred,

1157
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,599
Speaker 4: and it was about Natives being taken away from their

1158
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 4: families and like you know and being forced assimilated. You know.

1159
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 4: So I can only speak to those experiences. But what

1160
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 4: I like to do is still makes space that I'm

1161
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 4: capable of to tell people about the hurt that we've

1162
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 4: experienced and still experienced by methods of TV and movies.

1163
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 4: But it's going to take time. We can't undo what's

1164
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:28,759
Speaker 4: been done, but we can learn new ways of being.

1165
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 4: And so yeah, I like to make space for people

1166
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 4: to educate, just again from my experiences and in hopes

1167
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 4: that they're not just seeking out like I guess, like

1168
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 4: would it be a trauma bonding or like trying to

1169
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 4: live vicariously through the trauma, right, so they could feel

1170
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 4: some proximity to it without experiencing it. But yeah, like

1171
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 4: I think that the more we can share and the

1172
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 4: more that people realize that they have access to information,

1173
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 4: you know, like there's going to be stuff online that's

1174
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 4: going to support either opinion, right, and that's that's part

1175
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 4: of the problem with people not having a direction to

1176
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 4: go in So like a little bit of compassion. If

1177
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:14,680
Speaker 4: somebody doesn't want to talk to you, don't force it

1178
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 4: out of them because you know you'll get you'll get

1179
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 4: an earful I'm sure. But there's got to be space

1180
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 4: for education, and there's got to be space for Native

1181
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:27,720
Speaker 4: people to be able to tell their own stories, for

1182
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:33,480
Speaker 4: people to participate in that by even just watching m Absolutely,

1183
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:36,840
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think there's so much that we could

1184
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 4: talk this This documentary is so like wonderfully dense.

1185
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 3: Say, are there specific movies or points covered in the

1186
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 3: doc that you wanted to cover? I mean, I feel

1187
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 3: like I wrote down a million quotes of speaking to

1188
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 3: There was one I wanted to share about Pocahontas. I

1189
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 3: didn't write down who said it. I believe it was

1190
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 3: Jesse Windy, who's in Ojibway film critic, who said about

1191
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 3: Pocahontas in a way that again, just at many points,

1192
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 3: this documentary just like really clearly distills what the issue

1193
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 3: is with a tremendously famous movie that misrepresents Native people,

1194
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 3: and this one was we imbue in her all of

1195
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 3: the wrong notions about what we want to see in

1196
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 3: a mythical princess, and she becomes the embodiment of what

1197
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,679
Speaker 3: we want to see, not in Native society, she becomes

1198
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 3: an embodiment of what we see in American society and

1199
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 3: of American desire. And that's I mean, that's the white

1200
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 3: millennial's journey With the movie Pocahontas. I think that one

1201
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 3: of the first things that I recognize outside of the

1202
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 3: wild historical inaccuracy then you know, going into film school

1203
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:52,360
Speaker 3: and media, you know where there's all these issues of

1204
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:57,800
Speaker 3: erasure in academia as well, but just finding how much

1205
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 3: more significantly sexualized Pocahonta was. Not only is she aged

1206
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 3: up to seem to be an appropriate romantic interest, not

1207
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:09,360
Speaker 3: only is there all of this implied consent, not only

1208
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 3: is there this implied betrayal of her own people, all

1209
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 3: of which is untrue, but the way that she's physically

1210
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 3: presented is as far more sexual than any of the

1211
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:23,680
Speaker 3: white Disney princesses that you would see. And the historical

1212
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:29,880
Speaker 3: context that comes with that of overtly sexualizing and you know,

1213
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:33,879
Speaker 3: alternatively sexualizing and erasing Native women from media entirely.

1214
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,320
Speaker 4: That that makes me think about some of those old

1215
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 4: westerns and like when the women would be in brown face,

1216
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 4: you know, it was always like the white man would

1217
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 4: be seeking out you know this I cat like it's

1218
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 4: such a it's a slur, so I can't even say it.

1219
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:52,599
Speaker 4: But like the sq word, right, and like if anyone

1220
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 4: wants a piece of homework, go look at what the

1221
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 4: actual origin of that meaning is. It's incredibly vulgar. But

1222
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 4: I think about it's always about like and going in

1223
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 4: theme with the podcast here, it's all about like being

1224
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 4: available to men, right, It's the use use of buying men, right,

1225
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,599
Speaker 4: even you know, not to like go off too far

1226
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:17,960
Speaker 4: off course here, but like even with like the school marm, right,

1227
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 4: like the white women in it are just there to

1228
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 4: be of use for the men and to take care

1229
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:24,719
Speaker 4: of the children and that sort of thing. Like there's

1230
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:29,639
Speaker 4: no dimension, right, So when you see these native women

1231
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 4: in whether it be Westerns or even like the contemporary

1232
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 4: Western like Dances with Wolves, her purpose was to serve

1233
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 4: the man, right and be this like caricature of indigenity,

1234
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 4: when like ol stands with a fist was actually just

1235
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 4: a white woman, you know, who was stolen by these

1236
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 4: savages but then raised by them, you know, and it's

1237
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 4: this whole story and I really like that it was

1238
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 4: brought up that she looked like she was disheveled, and

1239
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 4: she looked all these ways, and like if she was

1240
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:01,040
Speaker 4: actually living with them, she would have commune. Like so

1241
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:03,320
Speaker 4: they had to make her look savage, right and like,

1242
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 4: and it was the white man that saved her from

1243
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:10,439
Speaker 4: you know whatever. It's just because like, also, heaven forbid

1244
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 4: this white man end up with a It's like she

1245
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 4: had like two she was a two dimensional character. Like

1246
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:17,640
Speaker 4: she wasn't one dimension, she had two dimensions because she

1247
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 4: lived with natives but was still white. You know that

1248
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 4: heaven forbid he would have ended up with a Native

1249
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 4: woman at all, you know, Like and so there's still

1250
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:29,920
Speaker 4: a level of like, what's the word for it. It's

1251
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 4: like just if it's like misogyny, racism, and again back

1252
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 4: to the fetish station of like what women are worth, right,

1253
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 4: and then you add, you know, add in that she's

1254
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 4: native or brown or anything, you know, and that's adds

1255
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:50,599
Speaker 4: another level of like just utter dismissal of any any worth.

1256
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:55,760
Speaker 1: For sure. Actually, if I had one criticism of this

1257
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:58,799
Speaker 1: documentary is that I would have loved to hear more

1258
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: Native women, Yeah, talk about what they've experienced, what they've seen,

1259
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: as far as the representation of Native women and fems

1260
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:14,040
Speaker 1: in Hollywood and just their thoughts on it, because we

1261
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: have a there's a few women who were interviewed, but

1262
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: definitely more men.

1263
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 4: I mean. And that's that's the other thing too, Like

1264
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 4: I look at timeframe, and I look at like, you know,

1265
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 4: we always have to take an account of when things

1266
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 4: are made, right, because like A, I don't believe in

1267
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:33,479
Speaker 4: the thing that people didn't know any better. They just

1268
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 4: choose not to expand, right, you know, or have like

1269
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 4: like the time frame can explain it, it doesn't necessarily

1270
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 4: excuse it, right, Does that make sense?

1271
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 5: Right?

1272
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

1273
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 4: But I look at the timeframe move when this was made,

1274
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:53,639
Speaker 4: and there weren't a lot of major motion pictures being wow,

1275
01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 4: just said the words major motion pictures, the brave, I

1276
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 4: thank you, it's nice to be here. But there weren't

1277
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:08,960
Speaker 4: a vast amount of major motion pictures being made with

1278
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:14,720
Speaker 4: Native actresses, right, like in roles that weren't like, you know,

1279
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,840
Speaker 4: freaking like Legends of the Fall, like one woman for

1280
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 4: a few minutes, and of course, oh what she was

1281
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 4: serving Brad Pitt's character, you know. Like, so, I mean

1282
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 4: I think that this documentary like kind of subtly without

1283
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 4: maybe knowing, really helped shed light on that because yeah,

1284
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 4: there wasn't any even in something that was so progressive

1285
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 4: at its time. You know, we're at the point where

1286
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 4: we could have Real Engine part two and like, look

1287
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 4: at where we are now, you know, and what we've learned.

1288
01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:49,640
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a there are five Twilight movies that

1289
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 1: came out since okay, progress is not linear all the

1290
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 1: time and moving forward, and because like you know, the

1291
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:03,439
Speaker 1: movie ends on this like really you know, positive note

1292
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 1: of like representations seems to be getting better. But then

1293
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 1: all these Twilight movies came out.

1294
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:12,680
Speaker 4: But also like just another fun you probably already know this,

1295
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:16,800
Speaker 4: but like fun movie fact is that Taylor Latner improvised

1296
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 4: Loca and they just kept it in there. So that

1297
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:20,320
Speaker 4: wasn't even no.

1298
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 3: I did not know that.

1299
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:25,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, that that is. That is one of the only

1300
01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 4: parts of those movies I've ever watched, And I just

1301
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 4: enjoy it because I'm just like him in his big

1302
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:32,880
Speaker 4: white teeth just saying Loka just does it for me.

1303
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 3: Those Loatner veneers, nothing like them, spark sparkle just yeah,

1304
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:45,719
Speaker 3: I would be that was I would love to see

1305
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 3: a sort of an update. I guess I don't know,

1306
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:50,680
Speaker 3: I as someone that is always frustrated by like the

1307
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 3: idea of being like, oh that thing you did a

1308
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 3: long time ago, do it again for me? But I

1309
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 3: but I would love to see sort of an update

1310
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:02,800
Speaker 3: in this format. Maybe it exists and I just don't

1311
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:03,439
Speaker 3: know about.

1312
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:07,599
Speaker 4: It, but maybe if it does, I hope I didn't

1313
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:10,400
Speaker 4: miss it, you know. Like again, not to dismiss Neil

1314
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:13,759
Speaker 4: Diamond like I and this is going to sound really

1315
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:15,760
Speaker 4: silly to say it out loud, but like people like

1316
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 4: him make me proud to be free because it is

1317
01:20:19,439 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 4: something that is so authentically indigenous to who he was

1318
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:26,840
Speaker 4: and the environment he grew up in what he saw right.

1319
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:30,280
Speaker 4: He wasn't pretending to be a type of native that

1320
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:35,760
Speaker 4: he wasn't. Right, So I appreciate everything he's done with

1321
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 4: that film and how he narrated it and how he

1322
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 4: story told through it. And again, like I said at

1323
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 4: the beginning, you know, when I was kind of talking

1324
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 4: about my experience with the film, it's it's literally the

1325
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 4: movie that I give for people as a stepping stone

1326
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 4: to understanding why their perceptions are the way they are

1327
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 4: of us. Bite size breakdown, you know. Yeah, it's a

1328
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:00,960
Speaker 4: positive catalyst movie. That's what I think of.

1329
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:05,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, ooh ooh, that's a great description for like a

1330
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:06,280
Speaker 3: genre of movie.

1331
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:08,639
Speaker 4: That's cool, Like I love things that are thought provoking,

1332
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 4: but it's a positive catalyst to Like again, both of

1333
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:12,840
Speaker 4: you said, like, oh, we have to watch these movies

1334
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 4: from it or whatever. This is like thirteen years ago.

1335
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 4: There's so much since then, but like those movies are

1336
01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:22,840
Speaker 4: your little snack of Maronis on your way to understanding

1337
01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:24,400
Speaker 4: Native people through cinema.

1338
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so absolutely, Yeah, is there anything else that you

1339
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 3: both wanted to touch on?

1340
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:36,000
Speaker 4: I mean, we're at the point now where we realize

1341
01:21:36,040 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 4: that we're all a Native land, right, and the best

1342
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:44,759
Speaker 4: way to understand where people are now is by understanding history,

1343
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 4: and so knowing where you are is a really good

1344
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 4: step forward. You don't know any like I encourage people

1345
01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 4: to not feel overwhelmed when it comes to understanding where

1346
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 4: they are. So, like, you know, you live somewhere they're

1347
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 4: like native land. You can find out who's laned you're on.

1348
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 4: Start doing some research, you know, just find out where

1349
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 4: you are and find out who's laned you're on. Find

1350
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 4: out if that tribe is doing anything, find out how

1351
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 4: you and support is such a broad word, but encourage

1352
01:22:13,479 --> 01:22:16,840
Speaker 4: other people to learn, understand the initiatives being taken, support

1353
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:20,479
Speaker 4: them when they're trying to change legislation, get land back,

1354
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:24,559
Speaker 4: et cetera. You know, it can be very overwhelming. Again,

1355
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 4: like I said, to find out that most of your

1356
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:33,439
Speaker 4: existence in knowledge is built on lies about people and

1357
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:39,639
Speaker 4: this false sense of security in what the United States

1358
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:44,840
Speaker 4: and Canada stand on. But I mean, I promise it's

1359
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:49,599
Speaker 4: worth it's worth learning about, definitely. So that's that's all

1360
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:51,639
Speaker 4: I got. Oh and not every Indians and planes Indian

1361
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:53,960
Speaker 4: we don't all where headdresses and war bonnets, I mean

1362
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:54,640
Speaker 4: like by people do.

1363
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:58,080
Speaker 3: But you know that was that was the last thing

1364
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 3: I wanted to actually because we started talking about the

1365
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 3: costume design. But just how there was a great quote

1366
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:10,160
Speaker 3: I think also from Oh my gosh, I have so

1367
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 3: many does Jesse WENTI? Yeah, for you know how the

1368
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 3: use of the what am I thinking of? Around the neck?

1369
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:21,960
Speaker 4: Are you talking about breastplates or the finger necklace or

1370
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:24,759
Speaker 4: the finger It was like the headband.

1371
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:30,320
Speaker 3: Sorry, my brain no longer works. No, the use of

1372
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 3: the choker being strictly practical to hide like wires and

1373
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 3: different things where they're like, yeah, we completely manufactured the

1374
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:42,400
Speaker 3: image of native people to the point where it was

1375
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:44,880
Speaker 3: to hide ship. That was just movie shit.

1376
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, the headband to hold on, the wigs and stuff

1377
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 4: like that. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's one of

1378
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:53,960
Speaker 4: the biggest like takeaways for this movie. The first time

1379
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 4: I saw it as as somebody who is a Plane's Indian?

1380
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 4: You know, I I was like, yeah, I was like this,

1381
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:03,920
Speaker 4: they need the identifiers. So like suddenly everyone's wearing a headdress,

1382
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 4: everyone has a breastplate on, everyone has these long braids

1383
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:12,040
Speaker 4: or whatever, and it's just it was so it's so lazy,

1384
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 4: Like it's just feels so lazy. But the thing is

1385
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 4: they just needed this like identifier, and like, while I

1386
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 4: get it, like I think planes natives are beautiful, and

1387
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:26,280
Speaker 4: there's so many tribes, Like there's so many tribes that

1388
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:29,599
Speaker 4: live in the Great Plains, I mean, like why them,

1389
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:33,679
Speaker 4: you know, like again like they're like but I again,

1390
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 4: I wouldn't wish that fetishization on any other group, you know.

1391
01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 4: So it's just it's it's very interesting to see that

1392
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 4: that was it was it's a caricature of indigenoity. You know.

1393
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what that does is just lumps all Native

1394
01:24:52,360 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 1: people into one monolith culturally, and they're in Hollywood. For

1395
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 1: most of these films made no attempt to include any

1396
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 1: like specific cultural signifiers for different tribes and nations, and

1397
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 1: it also just strips natives of specific cultural identity. And

1398
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 1: Hollywood was just doing that for decades, and white audiences

1399
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:22,920
Speaker 1: were none the wiser. They were just like, oh, this

1400
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:28,240
Speaker 1: is on screen, this just must be it, right, yeah,

1401
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 1: And then that just brings us back to the point

1402
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 1: of like taking the initiative to learn and actually do

1403
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:37,640
Speaker 1: the work, put in the effort.

1404
01:25:37,439 --> 01:25:39,600
Speaker 3: To You may have to read a book.

1405
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:41,800
Speaker 4: Or you can do you can do the other thing

1406
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:43,880
Speaker 4: that I do, because again, reading is not my friend.

1407
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 4: I just can't focus in, so I just like use

1408
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:49,240
Speaker 4: my delicious little apps on my phone or even highlight

1409
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:54,200
Speaker 4: text on my contutor. Yes, they said contutor and I

1410
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 4: and I haven't read it to me, you know, yeah, exactly.

1411
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 4: Everyone learns different ways and there's so many applications to

1412
01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:03,120
Speaker 4: be able to facilitate that now.

1413
01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is yeah, just like another of all the

1414
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:08,400
Speaker 3: elements of being alive right now that are fucking awful.

1415
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:10,880
Speaker 3: That is a good thing, take advantage of the few

1416
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,720
Speaker 3: good things we have. Yeah, Yeah, I just wanted to

1417
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 3: share those quotes from Richard Lamont because I feel like,

1418
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:21,200
Speaker 3: I mean, it's very much what our show is about,

1419
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 3: or has become increasingly more about over the years, which

1420
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,840
Speaker 3: is that, like I think it's very easy to you know,

1421
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 3: like I don't know argue that, Like, I mean, I

1422
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:33,759
Speaker 3: just think we still I still see this among people

1423
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 3: that I like, know and like and respect and all

1424
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:38,160
Speaker 3: this stuff. But they're like, it's just a movie. It's

1425
01:26:38,200 --> 01:26:41,760
Speaker 3: not that serious. It's just a movie. Which it's it's

1426
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 3: very rarely just a movie, especially when you're talking about

1427
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:52,599
Speaker 3: or erasing entirely communities who are rarely have ever given

1428
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 3: the opportunity to represent themselves with the same budgets, with

1429
01:26:56,439 --> 01:26:58,960
Speaker 3: the same sort of institutional support, and all of this shit.

1430
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:00,120
Speaker 1: It's it.

1431
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 3: It is as goofy as so much of it is.

1432
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 3: It is like extraordinarily important, and.

1433
01:27:07,360 --> 01:27:11,480
Speaker 1: Whether we notice it or not, it is altering our perceptions.

1434
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:15,240
Speaker 3: And that Jesse went to quote that I really really

1435
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:18,439
Speaker 3: kind of stuck with me during the costuming segment, was

1436
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 3: that the way that you know, all of indigenous culture

1437
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:28,040
Speaker 3: was just sort of turned into this also false representation

1438
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:32,599
Speaker 3: of a plane's native. He says, it's an ingenious act

1439
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:35,880
Speaker 3: of colonialism, robbing nations of their identity and grouping them.

1440
01:27:36,600 --> 01:27:40,160
Speaker 3: And that just feels like this story, even when it's

1441
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,519
Speaker 3: you know, seemingly well intentioned, you have this like brief

1442
01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,760
Speaker 3: moment in the seventies, but even so it's majority by

1443
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:51,000
Speaker 3: white directors who are showing Native characters in a more

1444
01:27:51,040 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 3: empathetic light than film has in many years, but through

1445
01:27:56,240 --> 01:27:57,759
Speaker 3: the white character's lens.

1446
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:02,400
Speaker 4: Always well, it's the outward racism. For me, that is

1447
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 4: just like portraying John Wayne as the real American, right,

1448
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 4: and you know, natives not being right, and that's just

1449
01:28:12,680 --> 01:28:22,120
Speaker 4: so yeah, yeah, that's something that still like it's I

1450
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:26,400
Speaker 4: think it was like John Trudell actually who said the

1451
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:31,280
Speaker 4: words in that even he's an incredible poet, but he

1452
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:34,479
Speaker 4: in the documentary he talked about how like when they

1453
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 4: got off the boat, they didn't recognize us, you know,

1454
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:39,599
Speaker 4: and I think that that is still the rhetoric that

1455
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 4: you know, came through in cinema over the last hundred years.

1456
01:28:43,560 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Something also that he said that really stuck with

1457
01:28:47,280 --> 01:28:50,839
Speaker 1: me was the word Indian had never been.

1458
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:53,040
Speaker 4: Uttered a sound had never been made yet.

1459
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 1: In this hemisphere pre Subtler colonialism, and like the idea

1460
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:03,160
Speaker 1: of name of American in the sense that like America

1461
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:07,720
Speaker 1: was a concept that was also brought over. And he's like,

1462
01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 1: my people are older than both concepts. Yeah, but we're

1463
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,800
Speaker 1: still fighting so hard to defend that identity.

1464
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:18,679
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, Like even the word Indian, there's

1465
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:22,120
Speaker 4: a lot of like I'm indifferent to it, and everyone

1466
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 4: is entitled to their own standard with it, Like I

1467
01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 4: don't really like I identify as Indian slang now as letters

1468
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:32,800
Speaker 4: and d end, you know. And it's just like a

1469
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:36,320
Speaker 4: cute way of kind of like like you know, vernacular

1470
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 4: changes in certain demographics and groups of people. You know,

1471
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 4: there's something that's like he said, like we're the people

1472
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:46,519
Speaker 4: and this is really cool, just as like a kind

1473
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 4: of a nugget is I have a lot of friends

1474
01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 4: of a lot of different tribes, and like most of

1475
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 4: the time their names just translate to the people right

1476
01:29:56,760 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 4: or something about the people of right, like so it's

1477
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:02,799
Speaker 4: always just people, and so like same thing with Nichio.

1478
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 4: It's we're people, right. And it's interesting because I don't like,

1479
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:09,599
Speaker 4: unless I'm hanging out with like my Nie Cheese, which

1480
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 4: are like my friends and stuff like that. Like, you know,

1481
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:15,559
Speaker 4: using the word Indian isn't really a thing that I do,

1482
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 4: because it's a point of like both, Like I just

1483
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 4: I'm appalled by it. By the same time, I'm like,

1484
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 4: it's how I identify. It's a really weird too true

1485
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:30,519
Speaker 4: truths can exist at the same time, for like how

1486
01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:33,559
Speaker 4: I feel about being an Indian because I don't want

1487
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:36,479
Speaker 4: to be a Native American again, Like America is not

1488
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 4: what I want to be a part of.

1489
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:38,320
Speaker 5: You know.

1490
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:41,160
Speaker 4: I prefer to be referred to as First Nations because

1491
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:44,679
Speaker 4: my people were of the first nations here. But I

1492
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,200
Speaker 4: am like when I introduce myself, you know, I'm not

1493
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 4: an Indian. I'm Mitchif and I'm Nechio and I'm German.

1494
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:53,519
Speaker 4: Thanks Dad for having a thing for skinny white women.

1495
01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 4: But you know, like just what it is. That's the

1496
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:01,280
Speaker 4: other thing too, is like because I'm like I acknowledge

1497
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:03,240
Speaker 4: all parts of myself and like I got to grow

1498
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:06,559
Speaker 4: up with some pretty rich German heritage too, and that

1499
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 4: was pretty neat. And that's the other thing that was

1500
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:12,000
Speaker 4: touched on the movie, which actually is really important, is

1501
01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:14,240
Speaker 4: that John Tredell said, He's like, you know, they're just

1502
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:16,760
Speaker 4: trying to find themselves, these hippies, right, because you know,

1503
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 4: they were part of tribes, they were part of nations

1504
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:21,200
Speaker 4: at one point, and they're just searching for that piece

1505
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:23,680
Speaker 4: of them that's lost. That's why they latch on. And

1506
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:31,160
Speaker 4: I felt that because colonization has done a number on everybody,

1507
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:34,400
Speaker 4: and just because we're the most recent, you know, we're

1508
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:37,800
Speaker 4: feeling it in such a drastic way. I feel bad

1509
01:31:37,800 --> 01:31:42,200
Speaker 4: for people who appropriate Native people here because I know

1510
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:44,920
Speaker 4: that they're just searching for something in themselves that they

1511
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:49,240
Speaker 4: don't have an answer to and probably never will. So

1512
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:53,200
Speaker 4: not excusing what they're doing, but again explains the behavior,

1513
01:31:53,280 --> 01:31:55,400
Speaker 4: doesn't excuse it exactly.

1514
01:31:57,439 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 5: So much.

1515
01:31:58,400 --> 01:31:59,479
Speaker 4: There's so many nuggets in that.

1516
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:02,320
Speaker 3: I feel like we keep being like, okay, the episode

1517
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 3: ever time.

1518
01:32:05,880 --> 01:32:09,240
Speaker 4: But yeah, people watch the movie if you haven't, and

1519
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:13,040
Speaker 4: ask questions, and ask questions about where you are, and

1520
01:32:13,160 --> 01:32:16,280
Speaker 4: ask questions if those people have made films or have

1521
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:22,200
Speaker 4: been in TV shows, or have participated in anything to

1522
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:25,400
Speaker 4: do storytelling. That's what Native people are known for. We're storytellers,

1523
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:28,720
Speaker 4: you know, like every Native nation has their stories of

1524
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 4: how we got to be here why we shouldn't do

1525
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:36,160
Speaker 4: certain things, and there's protocols around that too, which I

1526
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:39,240
Speaker 4: guess also varied by nation, because again, not an infallible

1527
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:42,679
Speaker 4: fount of all things indigenous. But yeah, take time, learn

1528
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:46,840
Speaker 4: and explore, and it's gonna make us better as people

1529
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 4: understand where folks are coming from, because we can undo

1530
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:52,640
Speaker 4: what's happened, but we can always learn new ways of

1531
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:54,519
Speaker 4: being absolute.

1532
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:58,519
Speaker 1: You mentioned slash Back. Are there any other movies you

1533
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:03,720
Speaker 1: would recommend people check out by indigenous filmmakers.

1534
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:06,640
Speaker 4: I mean there's just there's so there's so many, Like

1535
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 4: just as a side note, there's so many incredible like

1536
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:12,880
Speaker 4: short films like the Gosh what it was It? Like

1537
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 4: the Native American there's one that I gotta look it

1538
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:19,519
Speaker 4: up right now. It's gonna it's gonna kill me. But

1539
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:24,439
Speaker 4: there's these like short films that I've been seeing recently

1540
01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:31,679
Speaker 4: and they're pretty amazing. Did I delete it? I deleted

1541
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:38,760
Speaker 4: that of course. But like the Native American like Film Festival,

1542
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:43,479
Speaker 4: they have so many up and coming Native artists doing

1543
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:47,040
Speaker 4: like five minute films, you know, like just to see

1544
01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 4: things again through an indigenous lens is so important. There's

1545
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:54,960
Speaker 4: so many talented native musicians and I know, like the

1546
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:58,320
Speaker 4: dirty word like TV shows, but there's so many TV

1547
01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:02,280
Speaker 4: shows now that authorated bite sized pieces for lack of

1548
01:34:02,280 --> 01:34:05,800
Speaker 4: a better term, you know, like where you can just

1549
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,360
Speaker 4: step away for thirty minutes and just experience proximity to

1550
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:13,839
Speaker 4: somebody else, you know, through their language and their their

1551
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:14,640
Speaker 4: their lens.

1552
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah beautiful. Well, I say thank you so much for

1553
01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 1: joining us, for discussing this movie with us, and for

1554
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:28,439
Speaker 1: helping us make history on this show. Yeah, covering a

1555
01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:32,720
Speaker 1: documentary for the first time, Who's history? But it was

1556
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 1: such an enlightening conversation, And yeah, I loved this discussion.

1557
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so glad that you encourage us to cover

1558
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 3: this one specifically because I just I feel like I

1559
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:50,639
Speaker 3: have like a list of wonderful movies to watch. I'm

1560
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:52,320
Speaker 3: so excited, and.

1561
01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:55,800
Speaker 4: Honestly, I appreciate it because for me, again, I don't

1562
01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:57,920
Speaker 4: want to speak as anyone other than like a mature

1563
01:34:57,960 --> 01:35:01,599
Speaker 4: for Nahio person to not really talk about like a

1564
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:04,759
Speaker 4: film that you know wasn't created or through the lens

1565
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:08,360
Speaker 4: of like these people. It's hard for me to speak

1566
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:10,479
Speaker 4: to that because I haven't had their lived experience and

1567
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 4: I don't speak their language, and I don't know their stories,

1568
01:35:13,040 --> 01:35:16,160
Speaker 4: so I can't speak to like the beauty that's behind

1569
01:35:16,320 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 4: some of these films and TV shows and even music

1570
01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 4: that's coming out. So to talk about something that I

1571
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:25,400
Speaker 4: feel comfortable speaking on, which is how natives have been portrayed,

1572
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:29,559
Speaker 4: I really appreciate and value the space to be able

1573
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 4: to do that, and for you guys to bend your

1574
01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 4: rules a little bit and make space for somebody that's

1575
01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:37,559
Speaker 4: so important. And not a lot of places do that,

1576
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:40,519
Speaker 4: even though we'd like to think we're progressive. So thank

1577
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:42,439
Speaker 4: you for making space for me. I really appreciate it.

1578
01:35:42,479 --> 01:35:44,040
Speaker 1: Gosh happy to do it.

1579
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:49,120
Speaker 3: Come back and cover any movie like drop Dead fread

1580
01:35:50,240 --> 01:35:54,559
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, truly like whatever that's it. I can't imagine

1581
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:58,719
Speaker 3: the rich feminist discussion around Drop Dead Friend.

1582
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:01,040
Speaker 4: I turned out fine shod all the time.

1583
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:05,400
Speaker 1: You know what's mild. I always get the title of

1584
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:08,880
Speaker 1: that movie confused with Freddy got fingered because they both

1585
01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:10,000
Speaker 1: have fred in it.

1586
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:12,559
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm realizing that I was doing the

1587
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:13,160
Speaker 3: same thing.

1588
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:15,400
Speaker 4: No, No, that that is a different one. That's the

1589
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:18,680
Speaker 4: Tom Green one that the dropped Dead fred is the

1590
01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:22,840
Speaker 4: like special Friend. I don't what are they called imaginary

1591
01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 4: fan that's way too creepy.

1592
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:30,920
Speaker 3: God, is there any movie with starring a character named

1593
01:36:30,920 --> 01:36:35,840
Speaker 3: Fred who is not scared? Five Nights Five Nights of.

1594
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:40,800
Speaker 1: Freddy's Wish Finger. I had a reservation to go see

1595
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:44,559
Speaker 1: it on my amc A list stubs and uh then

1596
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 1: I looked up it's rotten Tomato score and I was like, oh,

1597
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:48,960
Speaker 1: it's low.

1598
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:53,400
Speaker 3: I don't think that anyone should ever trust a Rotten

1599
01:36:53,479 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 3: Tomatoes score, especially a movie of a horror movie, especially

1600
01:36:57,320 --> 01:36:59,519
Speaker 3: I have a horror movie directed by a woman. I

1601
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:02,680
Speaker 3: was really I was really stoked to see. This is

1602
01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:06,680
Speaker 3: the biggest goofiest thing to start talking about the at

1603
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:09,800
Speaker 3: the end of this episode. But it's yeah, directed by

1604
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:13,000
Speaker 3: a woman named Emma Tammy who I haven't seen her

1605
01:37:13,040 --> 01:37:17,720
Speaker 3: work before, but she negotiated in a percentage of profits.

1606
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:20,719
Speaker 3: Then the movie has made over two hundred million dollars.

1607
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:26,160
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, I just like, well, so,

1608
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:29,920
Speaker 3: even though it very well may fucking suck, everyone's seeing

1609
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:32,480
Speaker 3: five Nights at Fred Dropped Dead Fred.

1610
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 4: Five Nights at Freddy Krueger's Justice for Fred's No John's

1611
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:46,800
Speaker 4: and Fred's are out. I'm sorry, true, It's twenty twenty

1612
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 4: three almost twenty twenty four, I'm like, are.

1613
01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:54,160
Speaker 3: We if and ultimately this is this very well may

1614
01:37:54,240 --> 01:37:57,360
Speaker 3: revive Josh Hodgerson's career, And how do we feel about that?

1615
01:37:57,400 --> 01:37:58,680
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know.

1616
01:37:58,920 --> 01:38:00,200
Speaker 4: Fine with me?

1617
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,240
Speaker 3: Are we? Do we in two twenty twenty three need

1618
01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:06,360
Speaker 3: to revive Josh Hunterson's career? A fair question.

1619
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 4: Let's ponder that one and then get back to each

1620
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:12,200
Speaker 4: other through yes.

1621
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:19,840
Speaker 3: Email as I thank you so so much for joining us.

1622
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 1: Does the Bechdel test and the nipple scale even apply here?

1623
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:25,760
Speaker 5: Well?

1624
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:29,320
Speaker 3: I think, I like, like you were saying earlier, essay,

1625
01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 3: it does app I mean, I don't think we can

1626
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 3: really do a nipple scale for this because it's like you,

1627
01:38:35,320 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 3: but all three of us have kind of alluded to

1628
01:38:37,760 --> 01:38:41,840
Speaker 3: the fact that this documentary is incredibly valuable. I'd never

1629
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:45,480
Speaker 3: seen anything like it. I learned a ton, and I

1630
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:47,719
Speaker 3: think we all sort of seem to feel that women

1631
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:51,479
Speaker 3: were not the way that Native women are portrayed, and

1632
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:56,479
Speaker 3: the number of women included in the documentary left something

1633
01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:57,400
Speaker 3: to be desired.

1634
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:00,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, I mean, there's always room for provement. We

1635
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 4: can never think that the thing we do is finite

1636
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:07,519
Speaker 4: and perfect. You know, so again catalyst. Right, Let's take

1637
01:39:07,560 --> 01:39:12,080
Speaker 4: it as a catalyst and think about if any of

1638
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:16,639
Speaker 4: the young Native female directors out there saw this at

1639
01:39:16,680 --> 01:39:19,120
Speaker 4: some point and said, hey, I want to I want

1640
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:22,000
Speaker 4: to change things up. You know, That's that's all we

1641
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:24,960
Speaker 4: can hope for for a film like this to educate

1642
01:39:25,080 --> 01:39:25,879
Speaker 4: and inspire.

1643
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:26,920
Speaker 3: Definitely.

1644
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:32,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, so no nippies, but not yet.

1645
01:39:32,880 --> 01:39:35,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is this is a this is a this

1646
01:39:35,479 --> 01:39:37,320
Speaker 3: is an n slash a as far as I con

1647
01:39:37,400 --> 01:39:39,920
Speaker 3: certainly not applicable.

1648
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:43,680
Speaker 4: Although there are I will say that it's uh, there

1649
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:46,120
Speaker 4: are some graphic scenes, especially with the photos and stuff

1650
01:39:46,160 --> 01:39:49,400
Speaker 4: like that, that are quite triggering or agitating. With some

1651
01:39:49,439 --> 01:39:53,320
Speaker 4: of the imagery of natives being harmed or like from

1652
01:39:53,360 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 4: both film and then the photos that were shown that

1653
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,799
Speaker 4: those always can be jarring.

1654
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:02,960
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, indeed, Yeah.

1655
01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:03,719
Speaker 4: Jenna Side is daring y'all.

1656
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 1: Where can people check you out on social media? Check

1657
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:15,240
Speaker 1: out your work, et cetera.

1658
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:19,839
Speaker 4: On the interwebs. You can find me on Instagram at

1659
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 4: at Lawrence Welch and w And then I have one

1660
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:27,479
Speaker 4: of those invaluable link trees with all of the other

1661
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:31,280
Speaker 4: things on them that you can find stuff about creepy

1662
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 4: teepee which is.

1663
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:35,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us more about it.

1664
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:39,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, creepy Tepe is kind of amazing. Talk about native storytelling.

1665
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:44,360
Speaker 4: So my friend I Vana yellow Back, and I get

1666
01:40:44,400 --> 01:40:48,240
Speaker 4: together through the Internet and do live streams where we

1667
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:52,040
Speaker 4: tell spooky stories from our nation. We're both Cree, so

1668
01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:54,799
Speaker 4: we'll still tell stories of our people and the spooky

1669
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:57,519
Speaker 4: stuff that goes bump in the night, and then our

1670
01:40:57,520 --> 01:41:00,439
Speaker 4: own personal experiences. And we're looking to do a series

1671
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:03,360
Speaker 4: next where we have guests on that we'll be telling

1672
01:41:03,400 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 4: spooky stories from their nations, keeping it creepy, putting the

1673
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:10,640
Speaker 4: Kree and creepy, I guess.

1674
01:41:12,040 --> 01:41:12,479
Speaker 1: Perfect.

1675
01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:17,760
Speaker 4: And then yeah, and that's a lot of fun, and

1676
01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:21,519
Speaker 4: we're building that up slowly but surely. And then yeah,

1677
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:25,360
Speaker 4: with traditions. Again, I've said a few times that I'm

1678
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:28,240
Speaker 4: not an infallible fountable things indigenous. I don't really like

1679
01:41:28,240 --> 01:41:32,120
Speaker 4: pen indigenity. As we've seen from the way I've spoke today,

1680
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:34,799
Speaker 4: not all natives are the same. We're not a modelith

1681
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:39,560
Speaker 4: and so I created this art project to really showcase

1682
01:41:40,360 --> 01:41:45,519
Speaker 4: the differences in tribal nations through art as the outlet.

1683
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:50,880
Speaker 4: And so yeah, be doing shows and different events with

1684
01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:54,560
Speaker 4: that to just kind of celebrate the diversity of indigenity

1685
01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 4: on this land mass. So that's pretty cool. But yeah,

1686
01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:02,600
Speaker 4: you find me on Instagram, I'm at Lawrence Welsh Northwest

1687
01:42:03,240 --> 01:42:11,000
Speaker 4: NW and then online at tradish Hyphenish dot com and yeah,

1688
01:42:11,120 --> 01:42:12,639
Speaker 4: that's that's where I'm at.

1689
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:15,320
Speaker 1: Amazing. Thank you again so much.

1690
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:18,439
Speaker 3: This has been We'll see you on the drop Dead Fred.

1691
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:23,519
Speaker 4: It's like we just did just do like snippets of

1692
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:26,559
Speaker 4: like every Fred movie ever, like just include Fred.

1693
01:42:30,280 --> 01:42:31,440
Speaker 1: Fred Molina.

1694
01:42:32,160 --> 01:42:37,120
Speaker 3: Okay, oh that's true. Who goes by Freddy? Sometimes it's complicated.

1695
01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:43,000
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram, still on Twitter sometimes

1696
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 3: when we remember to post there. At Bechtel Cast, you

1697
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:50,679
Speaker 3: can join our Patreon aka Matreon, where for five bucks

1698
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:53,599
Speaker 3: a month you can get two bonus episodes as well

1699
01:42:53,640 --> 01:42:56,719
Speaker 3: as access to our back catalog of about one hundred

1700
01:42:56,720 --> 01:43:00,240
Speaker 3: and fifty episodes. And so yeah you can. You can

1701
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:01,160
Speaker 3: find us there.

1702
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:04,639
Speaker 1: And you can also grab our merch at teapublic dot com,

1703
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:09,000
Speaker 1: slash v Bechdel Cast, grab some you know, T shirts, pillows,

1704
01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:12,840
Speaker 1: et cetera. Everything's designed by a one Jamie Loftis.

1705
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:15,960
Speaker 3: It's true. It's getting to be the holiday season, so

1706
01:43:16,120 --> 01:43:22,799
Speaker 3: get your sexy baby Grinch s merch. There's really powerful plug.

1707
01:43:22,840 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 3: We've exited wet scab dry scab season and now we're

1708
01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:31,280
Speaker 3: heading into baby Grinch wearing heels. Yes, our merch store

1709
01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:34,920
Speaker 3: is fairly cursed, but we do have it.

1710
01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:37,760
Speaker 1: It is there, and you can buy the stuff if

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Speaker 1: you so choose, and we'll be back next week. So

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Speaker 1: sure well, then bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftus,

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Speaker 1: produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme

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Speaker 1: song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski.

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Speaker 1: Our logo in Merch is designed by Jamie Loftus and

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Speaker 1: a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about

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Speaker 1: the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechdelcast