1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: going to have to start making better content. I think 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 4 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're 6 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you 7 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? And 8 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: it really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: Alexa Kristen. Welcome back to episode I don't even know 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: what we're on two, and we have some special announcements. 11 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: We're taking this show on the road, on the road 12 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: and I R l yes. So we will be opening 13 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: up the I A b S Annual Leadership Meeting in 14 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: February out in Palm Desert, California. Big focus on direct 15 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: to consumer brands and how incumbent brands can learn from 16 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: new startups and direct to consumer brands, and how the 17 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: whole ecosystem of supply chain and um reaching audiences has changed, 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: and why direct to consumer brands are coming into their 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: own at this point. It's really going to be an 20 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: interesting conversation. So we're excited to be there and big 21 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: thanks to I a b for having us come out totally, 22 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and we're also excited to announce that we'll be doing 23 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: two of our favorite things, talking and eating, yeah, talking 24 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: any with a bunch of friends. We're going to be 25 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: launching an inaugural dinner series starting at the on air 26 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,919 Speaker 1: fest with our friends at Work by Work. We're excited 27 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: to be doing that in Brooklyn at the White Hotel 28 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: in February as well. And stay tuned because they're going 29 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: to be more at Landia Dinners and you may have 30 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: a chance to come and join us. So today we 31 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: have a special caller, probably the hottest media trends reporter 32 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: in the industry right now, wouldn't you say, I would 33 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: say hottest and still not known about enough. Right So 34 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: we're going to get on the phone with Sarah Fisher 35 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: from Axios Media Trends newsletter. I love her background, So 36 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: she's going to tell you about how she actually got 37 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: to Axios and what she was doing before. And I 38 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: think there's actually a signal in the noise here. Um 39 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: And so when you list and you hear her talk 40 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: about her background and add sales and on the business side, 41 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: I think it actually gives so many people on the 42 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: business side, something to hold onto and say, wait a second, 43 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: I can have a perspective beyond what I'm selling, right, 44 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: like walking in with just a proposal and selling to 45 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: a brand or a publisher or a client or whoever. 46 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: Right that everyone in this space should and can have 47 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: a perspective on the business And I love that, right. 48 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: I think what was interesting about her point of viewer. 49 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: What is interesting about her point of view is the 50 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: perspective around how to fish for information. Right. If you're 51 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: thinking about how you're selling, you're asking for client objectives, 52 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: trying to figure out where you can slot in. You know, 53 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: your unique point of view is what you just said 54 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: to get something sold. But I think that there's something 55 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: interesting about how you know, when you think about the 56 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: seller buy a relationship and you think about that dynamic 57 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: at the table of what they need to pull from 58 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: you to get to, you know, to the point of 59 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: how we make this deal happen. It's interesting to see 60 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: her translate that over to the journalism front. And it 61 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: comes down to ask the right questions, asking the right questions. 62 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: And yes, it doesn't mean it's more work sometimes absolutely, 63 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: but it also means that you have a more meaningful 64 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: relationship with the people that you're talking to and selling 65 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: to totally what I appreciate it, and I think, you know, 66 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: having chatted with her quite a bit, it's interesting to 67 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: see sort of where at Landia has sprung up in 68 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: the market, where Axios Media has sprung up in the market, 69 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: and the different unique point of view you get from 70 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: people who are in it right, the people who are 71 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: grinding it out, the people that have expertise and have 72 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: practiced um and how they're able to take points from 73 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: brands or points from publishers and able to shape it 74 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: into a conversation that actually extracts value because you know, 75 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: you get it. So I think that's really interesting. So next, 76 00:03:49,560 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: let's call Sarah cam dialer up. Hi, this is Sarah Fisher. 77 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: Sarah Fisher. Hey, Sarah, it's the ladies from Atlantia are Hey, 78 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Good morning, Good morning. So you 79 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: have the hottest media newsletter in the industry right now, 80 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: Axio says Media Trends. Can you tell us, Sarah, how 81 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: you got started and why you made the jump over 82 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: to Axios two put this out into the world. Yeah, absolutely, 83 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: and thank you so much for the kind words. I mean, 84 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: It's kind of serendipitous how it happened. I was in 85 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: ad sales for the majority of my career. I sold 86 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: advertising at Politico, and when the founders of Politico jumped 87 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: to create Axius, they wanted to create a product that 88 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: looked at the business and technology sides of media, and 89 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: they wanted a reporter who they wouldn't have to explain 90 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: what a CPM was, or they wouldn't have to explain 91 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: how how tor bidding worked, and that can be kind 92 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: of challenging to find, especially because we're headquartered here in Washington. 93 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: And so they figured, let's see if Sarah would be interested. 94 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: Even though she comes from the business side, she's not 95 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: really a writer, we know she gets those important topics, 96 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: and it just sort of worked out really well. I 97 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: started before the company launched last November. We launched the 98 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: newsletter in June, and it's sort of taken off from there. Wait, 99 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: so you went from ad sales to journalism. You had 100 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: not been a journalist before. No. I spent a few 101 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: years during my sales career. It took some time off 102 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: and went to CNN, and I learned some of the 103 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: editorial concepts that you need for report to be a reporter, 104 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, how do you initiate something off the record 105 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: on the record. But for the most part, I've never 106 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: been a writer, and then when they brought me on 107 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: to do this, I kind of had to wing it. 108 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: But luckily for us Axios, our format is, you know, 109 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: really short writing. It's not using a lot of words, 110 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: it's just sort of leading on expertise. So it turned 111 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: out to be a good fit. So how are you 112 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: sourcing stories? Because obviously there's a ton of media trade 113 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: organizations that are out there reporting on very similar issues, 114 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: but you seem to have found an angle in a 115 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: bend in that was able to cut through very quickly. 116 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: How are you sourcing those stories? And what are you 117 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: looking for in the market to really find your point 118 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: of differentiation and Axios Yes, So I'd say that every 119 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: time you read the newsletter you'll probably find that between 120 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: the five to seven items that I include, there's three 121 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: to four people that are on the record. But what 122 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: you don't see are the you know, thirty or forty 123 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: people I talked to that week, whether it was on 124 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: the phone, on background, off the work record, in an interview, 125 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: at a conference, in a conversation just to be able 126 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: to better form an opinion or a perspective that could 127 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: help me shed light on some of these really nuanced 128 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: topics to readers. And so when it comes to sourcing, 129 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: it runs the gamut. This is like the most important 130 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: skill that I took from sales and I brought to reporting. 131 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter who you are, where you are. Everyone 132 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: has an interesting perspective when it comes to media. So 133 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: sometimes I'll talk to the folks that I used to 134 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: sell ads to, some of the adviers. Sometimes I talk 135 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: to regulators because I'm here in Washington about what do 136 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: you know about how this industry is transforming that maybe 137 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,559 Speaker 1: some many times the industry parties don't even know about 138 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: because they aren't looking at it from such a high level. 139 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: Or I'll talk to brands. You know, it really runs 140 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: the gamut, but there's no sort of equation like I 141 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: call this person every day. I call that person every 142 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: day because I'm covering such a wide scope of things, 143 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: everything from media trends in publishing, telecom technology, business deals 144 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: that you can't allow yourself to you know, only talk 145 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: to the same like ten people. You just got to 146 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: talk to everyone. Well, I think it's really impressive is 147 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: that there's so much noise out there and you distill 148 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:59,559 Speaker 1: your newsletter into really smart, really pointed topics, and um 149 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: they is that people need to be paying attention to 150 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: and when you're talking everybody, how do you do that? 151 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: How do you Lauren, I talked about spotting the signal 152 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: in the noise? How do you spot the signals and 153 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: the noise? It's a great question. One of the things 154 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: that I did have to do when I was at scene, 155 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: and which was hard, was they put me in this 156 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: thing called the feeds from and you'd have to listen 157 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: to like hours and hours of White House briefings, Pentagon briefing, 158 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: Stage department briefings, and then you have to send a 159 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 1: note to the network of like the top five things, 160 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: like what were the biggest things after five hours of 161 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: listening to people? What are the five minutes that matter? 162 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: And so it really helps hone your editorial judgment. And 163 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: I like to sort of apply that same thought process 164 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: when I write the newsletter. It's like, Okay, I have 165 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: lists that I've made all week of things I've heard, 166 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: things that are interesting. But if I'm a business executive 167 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: and I need to get smarter about my media business, 168 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: What are the five things that I have to know? 169 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: And so, honestly, it just comes down to ranking. It 170 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: becomes it comes down to just having good news judgment, 171 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: going with your gut and ranking things. And sometimes I'll 172 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: identify something that no one else is talking about, and 173 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: I wonder, oh, my gosh, am I missing? Am I 174 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: missing the mark? Like? Am I the one that's just 175 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: going totally off the cliff here? And then people will 176 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: respond and be like, thank god you wrote that. I've 177 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: been thinking about that, or I hadn't thought about it 178 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: this way. I'd say, like, the best example is when 179 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: I talked about some of the issues that we're facing 180 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: with like Chinese investments in media, or you know, I'm 181 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: going to have something tomorrow on you know, Comcast and 182 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: NBC their merger sort of remedies expired this past weekend, 183 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: Like what does that mean for a T? T? Time 184 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: Warner And what does that mean for you if you're 185 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: looking to advertise with a T and T. So a 186 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: lot of it is just me kind of going with 187 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: my gut, and sometimes I guess I could be off, 188 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: but it seems so far that people have liked my gut, 189 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, It's interesting when you talk about being able 190 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: to distill it down in five points. I think there's 191 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: a side hustle in there for you, because if I 192 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: read one more sales deck that goes fifty pages instead 193 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: of five points and four pages, I think there's something 194 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: there where you could uh kind of consult with folks 195 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: on how to get straight to the point. So you've 196 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: been obviously on you know, some of the hot tips 197 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: coming through, and you you dropped a very special edition 198 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: UM in the middle of CS last week around the 199 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: news relative to Facebook. Yes, can you give us the 200 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: background on what you see being the most important facets 201 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: UM for our listeners around the news of Facebook changing 202 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: their algorithm to focus on engagement with posts, which obviously 203 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: are going to have negative applications on brands and publishers. Yeah. 204 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: So I'd say the most important thing is that if 205 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: you take a look at traffic patterns, any sophisticated publisher 206 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: that's eyeing or analytics, And by publisher, I'm referring to 207 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: brands too, because they published on Facebook, they should have 208 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: seen this coming. I mean, the amount of referred traffic 209 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: from Facebook and comparison to Google and others has just 210 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: been waning for months, and so you shouldn't be surprised 211 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: by what you're seeing. However, you should expect for it 212 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: to continue to ramp up, meaning that less and less 213 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: of your posts will have visibility, will have exposure. I 214 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: think here's the sneaky to ways where it's going to 215 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: creep up on publishers and brands that they might not realize. 216 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: One is so many people who do long form natives 217 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: rely on Facebook to distribute traffic to those native pieces, 218 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: and that will become much harder. Did you day just 219 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: wrote a piece on this If you had bought, you know, 220 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: a one hundred thousand dollar native execution with a publisher, 221 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: but on your media plan there was like a eighty 222 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: thousand dollars social distribution Like most of those clicks you 223 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: were banking on from Facebook, You're probably not going to 224 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: get in half as much as those. So that's one 225 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: big side effect that I'd say is going to have 226 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: on brands and publishers. The other is there have been 227 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: analytics to support this, and we've run a purse on 228 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: this throughout the year, but short form video for the 229 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: sake of short form video is just not going to 230 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: be an option for developing an audience anymore. And we've 231 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: written about this extensively, particularly as we mentioned actually a 232 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: few editions ago, how it will help other sort of 233 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: technology advancements like voice or et cetera, become bigger. But 234 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: you can't just create Facebook is to try to go 235 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: viral anymore and get more people to like your page 236 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: and maybe sign up for your newsletter subscription. You're gonna 237 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: have to rely on much more strategic, much more well 238 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: crafted types of editorial or content. Is. You can't just 239 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: make spami videos anymore. Hasn't it been that way actually 240 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: for a long time. Now it's officially that way now 241 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: with Facebook going down this direction, it's definitely going to 242 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: be a marked difference. But I would say if Brand's 243 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: thought for the last three years that they were getting 244 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: real virility out of Facebook without giving them significant spend, 245 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: they're wrong. Well it's interesting, right, Like one of my 246 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: favorite tweets that I read that came in the feed 247 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: right afterwards was, you know, we talked about it all 248 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: this time, the difference between delivering traffic versus delivering engagement 249 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: and true audience, and people are going to start finding 250 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: out to your point, Al said that you know, this 251 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: whole time. It was volumes and volumes and volumes and 252 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: scale and scale and scale. But the reality of the the 253 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: situation was how many of those folks that were coming 254 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: across your post or watching your video or actually qualified 255 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: audience that was going to stick around and engage with 256 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: the brand or were they getting real morality? I think 257 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: the question for me is was anyone getting real virility 258 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: at this in the last few years with Facebook anyway? 259 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah, I completely agree with that. 260 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of inflated virality and 261 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: inflated engagement through paid Now we've heart you know, we've 262 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: quoted analysts saying that it's you know, organic reach is 263 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: basically going to be dead on Facebook and you're gonna 264 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: have to buy a lot of your reach. I think 265 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: that's one thing publisher should be really wary of is 266 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: if you're not creating incredibly culturally timely relevant content, Like 267 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: if you feel like you have to pay to elevate 268 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: your organic stuff, your organic stuff could be stronger. And 269 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: so I think brands are going to have to think about, 270 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: how do I create more like culturally relevant moments, How 271 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: do I create more authentic content that breaks through the 272 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: noise without me having to pay for it to break 273 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: through the noise. And so you're right, it's been happening 274 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: for a long time. But I think this is the 275 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: way of Facebook putting me icing on the cake. We 276 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: keep talking about Facebook. Let's talk about everything but Facebook. 277 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: So like, where's the opportunity. I was reading an article 278 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: recently where the CEO of Fatherly was saying that a 279 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: lot of his traffic is coming direct from pinterest. Is 280 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: this an opportunity for other tech players like a Pinterest 281 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: to come in and create a whole new environment for 282 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: brands and publishers. It is, And we talked about this 283 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: a lot of accius and we get a ton of 284 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: our traffic from Flipboard. It depends on what type of 285 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: publisher you are. If you're a lifestyle publisher, if you do, 286 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, sell home decre or something like that, then yes, 287 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: Pinterest would be phenomenal for you. If you're a news publisher, 288 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: something like Flipboard or Google News or Apple would be 289 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: great for you. The thing that publishers are going to 290 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: have to think about, though, is that we got into 291 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: this situation where we were signing deals with the devil. 292 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: We were signing away our I P and are content 293 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: to these different platforms, and we weren't getting enough of 294 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: a revenue share in return. We're at the point now 295 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: where if you want to develop strategic relationships with your audience, 296 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: if you want to be able to make you know, 297 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: sound financial investments, you can't just rely on traffic from 298 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: these platforms. You have to rely on a strategic relationship, 299 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: a strategic investment where you're getting revenue in return. And 300 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: so this is one of the problems that some publishers 301 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: crist out with Apple News. It's that where's the revenue share? 302 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: Is it good enough? Are we making enough money from 303 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: that partnership. I know Snapchat has been really vocal that 304 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: they're trying to make this better. They're announcing a publisher 305 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: summit where they can focus on AD rev share agreements, 306 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: I mean the most important thing. There are different distributors 307 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: that are going to rise as Facebook falls, like Apple News, Flipboards, Snapchat, Twitter, etcetera. 308 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: But publishers are going to have to be pretty picky 309 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: about the ones they choose to really invest in unless 310 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: they're getting a big return on that investment, either through 311 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: an AD revenue share or content license. Agreement. They need 312 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: to be really picky about where they just hand over 313 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: their I P because then they're just going to fall 314 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: into the same trap as Facebook. How do they vet that? Like, Yeah, 315 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: you gotta have a smart audience development team that's in 316 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: constant communication with the partner. I mean, I don't know 317 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: if you remember seeing there was a CNBC article about 318 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: how Amazon reps can be really hard to get in 319 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: touch with and to sort of work with. I mean, 320 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: Amazon has a relatively nascent advertising business. It's growing faster 321 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: than everybody else's, but some of that institutional infrastructure of 322 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: how do you create sales partnerships, how do you create 323 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: smart revenue partnerships and content are just newer to them. 324 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: That's not what they focused on. They were an e 325 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: commerce platform forever, and so you need to choose your 326 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: partners that have experience and that are committed to getting 327 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: that sort of publisher relationship right. And that means having 328 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: a lot of uptrunk conversations with their sales teams about 329 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: what does the revenue share look like? Am I going 330 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: to be contract? And how long does this contract expire? 331 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: Where are the flexibilities in this So that if we 332 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: have a huge enormous bumping traffic that we can get 333 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: earned for it because we're bringing elevation to your platforms. 334 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: All of these things are conversations that brand's got to 335 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: have with the distributors, and unfortunately, not all distributors are 336 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: at the level where they're sophisticated enough and developing these 337 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: types of contracts. If you take a look at what 338 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: cable has done with some of the networks or cable 339 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: satellite companies, that those partnerships have been solidified over a 340 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: long period of time, starting to get a little bit 341 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: rustled now with redistribution agreements, but they've been solidified. We're 342 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: still at the point where we have not created a 343 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: really solid distribution ecosystem for digital Regulation is going to 344 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: have some stuff parts to do with it, but I 345 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: also just think time and experience are going to help 346 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: to you know, it's interesting, UM, what you were just 347 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,719 Speaker 1: talking about in terms of content I P and not 348 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: necessarily just giving away the milk for free. I think 349 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: it's something we've talked about at Nausea and probably on 350 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: this show, is that publishers UM and media companies in particular. Um, 351 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: it's almost like you need to turn the mirror inward 352 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: and start taking a deeper look at what you are 353 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: bringing to the table um and some of the content 354 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: um that has been you know, chasing the lowest comments dominate. 355 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: You're looking for scale and finding these partners just to 356 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: put it out wherever anybody wants to view it. I 357 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: think as an industry we need to reevaluate that distribution 358 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: strategy because at the end of the day, if you 359 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: have an asset or you have content um that people 360 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,719 Speaker 1: are willing to pay for, um that people can't get 361 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: anywhere else, I think people are willing to come and 362 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: look for it, and I don't necessarily think that that 363 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: has to be in the Facebook feed UM. So would 364 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: be curious to get your thoughts on that. I mean, 365 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. This is the lens that I 366 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: would approach to the people's way of thinking about this. 367 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: For so long we measured success in media by reach 368 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: Nielsen ratings. How many people listened consecutively for one minute? 369 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: What was that reach? Radio? Same thing, what was that 370 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: reach over a fifteen minute measurement period? Even in digital 371 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: when we first started out, we were measuring things by 372 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: unique visitors. Over the past really I'd say two years 373 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: because reach has become democratized through smartphones, you can reach 374 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: anyone at a time. What has become the shift is 375 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: how engaged how much of someone's time can you capture. 376 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: And so when we're thinking about i P and we're 377 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: thinking about just making our content free and accessible, you 378 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: don't need to reach everybody any more. That's not the 379 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: metric of success. You're hand pumping. We're hand pumping. The 380 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: metricup success should be how much does your content engage 381 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: someone so that they can have an positive brand lift 382 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: and help get you to a point of sale if 383 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 1: you're trying to sell product, or how much does your 384 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 1: product give you a positive brand lift so that if 385 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: you're a publisher, you can develop that direct to consumer 386 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: relationship to monetize it in other ways. And so if 387 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: you're thinking about I just need to get my i 388 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: P out there, I need to scale my audience. I 389 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: need growth. I need growth. I mean, stop trying to 390 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: grow so fast and start trying to grow smart. Where 391 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: can I put my IP in a place that I'm 392 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: going to get value from it and my consumers are 393 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: gonna get value from it. Because one of the other 394 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: issues is you totally dilute your brand. When you just 395 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: try to kind of push all of your content everywhere 396 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: without being strategic, a half of it doesn't become viewable, right. 397 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: Impressions aren't viewable in the US anyway, So why are 398 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: you spanning it on crappy programmatic channels and b when 399 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: it does get viewed, if it's not contextually relat in 400 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: like what we're saying before, the impact is so much less. 401 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: So this is going to force everyone in the ecosystem 402 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: at Atlantia. Soul sister, what you said about um, you know, 403 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: stop growing so fast, start growing smart, I think is 404 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: like Mike drops, I actually think it's a new episode 405 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: that I would love for you. We would love for 406 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: you to come in on. Because one of the things 407 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: that we talk a lot about is in this economy 408 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: of companies and brands that are being driven by short termism, right, 409 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: and by the market that says you have to grow, 410 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: you have to grow, you have to grow at this 411 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: exponential right. And then what's going to happen is we're 412 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: gonna see brands, including media brands and companies have these 413 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: meteoric rises and falls just as fast. And so what happens, 414 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: I think to the whole landscape when that when that 415 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: starts happening. I mean, the rise and fault thing that 416 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: you just hit on is so crucial in understanding how 417 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: all of the new age digital publishers are failing. Because 418 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: if you're VC backed, which like excuses the EC backed 419 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: business Insider Refiner twenty nine, the list goes on. If 420 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: you're backed by venture capitalists. This is why vcs typically, 421 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 1: by the way, don't get into media. They want to 422 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: see a tend time return in their investment, meaning that 423 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: if you bring in you know, one million dollars one year, 424 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: the second year, you gotta double it. Bring into the 425 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: third year, you've gotta double it, bring in four. By 426 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: the time some of these companies get into really it's 427 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: like the fourth and fifth year, the pressure to continue 428 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: to double revenue it swallows them, and so they just 429 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: start to grow as fast as they possibly can to 430 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: accommodate it. They don't have the flexibility of longevity and 431 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: time to build and develop a smart audience, and that's 432 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: where you're seeing a lot of them start to rely 433 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: on platforms just to scale big meet those DC expectations, 434 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: and then once those platforms pulled the plug, they're screwed. 435 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: And so I think a lot of publishers are going 436 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: to have to think strategically about their funding. If you 437 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: want to get into this game, where are you gonna 438 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: get funding that your expectations allow for long term growth? 439 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: And I recognize that that seems a little bit contradictory 440 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: because Axis is VC back. It's a challenge we're going 441 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: to have to face to leave and open about that. 442 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: But people should think really strategically about that because we're 443 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: watching people that have those very steep growth curves ahead 444 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: of them just flounder in this environment. I also think 445 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: that to just to put a cherry on that and 446 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: then they commoditize their experience. So not only have they 447 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: lost any kind of funding, they've lost audience. They've completely 448 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: lost audience. Some of the people that came to them 449 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: initially now see that the content has totally derived from 450 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: where their brand or what that publisher stood for to 451 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,959 Speaker 1: begin with, and they suddenly don't find any resonance with it. 452 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: I kind of think about Huffington's Post in a way. 453 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: The post was built as almost an open platform for 454 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: people that have left the center, you know, uh viewpoints 455 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: during the Bush administration, and then once media had to commoditize, 456 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: where a lot of left leaning words you know, daily 457 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: costs and others popped up there. You know, value add 458 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: for being sort of this open platform suddenly decreased. And 459 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: what you saw was that loyal havington post readers, they 460 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: could just get this completely commoditized stuff and other left 461 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: of center sites, and it became more difficult for them. 462 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that there isn't intrinsic value, because they 463 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: do do amazing reporting. It's just they're a good example 464 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: of a publisher I think that has sort of had 465 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: to figure out how to navigate these waters because they 466 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: grew really fast at a time when the Facebook was 467 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: just starting, and now they have to redefine themselves well 468 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: not so to just bring a full circle. That's where 469 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: we talked about the value of content. I p if 470 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: you have something that is truly differentiated, think twice before 471 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: you start distributing it all over the place. I do 472 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: believe we can get back to this push versus poll, 473 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,239 Speaker 1: leaning more heavily on the poll because if you know, 474 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: I've got something that nobody else in the market has, 475 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: well ship, I'm gonna gone exactly So, Sarah, it's time, 476 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: I know when I saw you in Vegas at c 477 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: E S, you said, oh my god, killed by d 478 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: I Y. How come nobody's ever prepared for it? So 479 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: let's see if you are, we'll see, We'll see how 480 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: it goes. I don't know, So what would you kill? Um? 481 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: I would kill This might be a little bit of 482 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: a specific one, but this is going back to my 483 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: sales days. I would start to really think if I'm 484 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: a brand, about killing offline items and media plans that 485 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: are off platform for the brand that I'm running with. 486 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: So if I'm trying to buy I don't know whatever, 487 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: someone's audience, why would I ever want to target this 488 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: publisher's audience through audience extension on another platform. It never 489 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 1: really made sense to me. It always felt like you're 490 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: getting the right people, but you're not getting the right experience. 491 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: So I would kill off just like generally speaking, the 492 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: concept of audience extension. If you're going to run with 493 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: the publisher, you're doing it because you want to get 494 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: that audience amid your content that I p next to 495 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: the right people at the right time. I think this 496 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: splicing and dicing, well, I'll get this audience, but I'm 497 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: gonna put it in front of the competitor's content. Because 498 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: it's cheaper, You cheapen the experience. It's not worth your time. 499 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: Kill it. From that line, I don't interesting I like it. 500 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: What would you buy, bling, Bling? I would buy a 501 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: measurement company in podcasts, whoever they are, wherever they are. 502 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: We need it so bad. Apple Analytics is not enough. 503 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: It's a really quickly growing industry. There's no reason it 504 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: shouldn't be taking off. The only reason it isn't is 505 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: because we don't have a way for advertisers to measure 506 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: the success of it and equate it in a way 507 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: that could make it easy to buy and show return 508 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: on investments. So I would buy whoever can measure podcasts 509 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: in a really meaningful way. Maybe you should come talk 510 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: to the Panoply folks because they have to make a 511 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: phone platform. Or maybe we should shift a d I 512 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: Y and let's just build it ourselves. So what would 513 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: you do yourself, Sarah? You know this is something that 514 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: we hope to write about at one point. UM. I 515 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: work with a lot of comms departments, either in brands 516 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: or UM publishers. I think I would start to reimagine 517 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: what the reporter and brand relationship looks like you see 518 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: so many people that just kind of spam you with 519 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: press releases, is opposed to taking the time to strategically 520 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: walk you through their goals, their mission, and their product. 521 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: And if they were to do that, we would have 522 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: a much easier time actually giving them some of that 523 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: or media that they're craving. But when you just sort 524 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: of spam us with press releases, it becomes really difficult 525 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,719 Speaker 1: for us to develop a smart relationship with your product 526 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: and your brand. So I think I would reimagine that 527 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: the you know, reporter brand relationship. I love that. I 528 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: think something that Laura and I talked to folks about 529 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: in the industry a lot is don't just put a 530 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: press release out in the wire yep. That's the old school. 531 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: It doesn't do anything. So these relationships um and bringing 532 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: uh you know, reporters into the fold on what's really 533 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: driving the business and why this came about so smart 534 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: so right, yeah, And I would say that if I 535 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: was a VC, Sarah, that's why my money's on you, 536 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: because you're asking the right questions. So with that, thank 537 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: you so much, Sarah. If people need you, get in 538 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: touch with you, drop you a tip, Go on background. 539 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: How do they find you? Sarah s A r a 540 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: at Axos dot com. And if you haven't before, subscribe 541 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: to Sarah's Axios Media newsletter. It is awesome. It's something 542 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: that now I get so many newsletters in my inbox. 543 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: I always make sure I'm reading that every Tuesday morning. Sarah, 544 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: thank you so much for calling in. It was great 545 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: to chat with you. We hope you see you in 546 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: New York City soon. Yes, thanks guys, talk soon by 547 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: So how smart is Sarah Fisher? I love her. She 548 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: could be like the third leg of the stool. She 549 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: might be the third leg, and she might be the 550 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: fourth leg. I'm not really true she counts for two legs. Yeah, 551 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: she was great. So definitely subscribe to Axios Media Trends 552 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: newsletter if you haven't already. Um, but that said, we 553 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: have our thank you's. Thanks Cameron Drew's, Andy Bowers, Matt 554 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: Turk and all of our friends and family and Panoply 555 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: and our fabulous listeners who have been sending us I 556 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: don't even know. I mean, like Twitter is blown up. 557 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: Twitter is blown up with the emails that we're getting. 558 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, they're like phenomenal hair raising make me 559 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: spits and tear up like, thank you, thank you for 560 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: everyone reaching out and saying how much you're enjoying the 561 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: show and giving us ideas on things that you're interested in. Um, 562 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: we are forever grateful and keep them coming. So with 563 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: that island yet, we'll be back in two weeks. Mm hmm. 564 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.