WEBVTT - The Hacker Who Stole the No Fly List 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome Did it Happened Here? A podcast about things falling 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.520 apart and how to put them back together again? Wow, 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:12.960 I'm your host, me along, And today I am returning 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:16.000 to my roots and the CD Criminal Anarchist Hacker Underground, 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.720 which has gotten much less ceed and somehow even more 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:23.000 gay since I was last there and with with me 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.960 to talk about this is Maya Arson Crime you who 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.520 is most recently famous as the person who owned an 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:30.760 airline so hard they got a copy of the fucking 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:38.920 no flight list, which is yeah, just just first day things. Yeah, 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:40.440 so Maya, how how are how are you? How are 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.600 you doing? Being deluged with when Trilli an interview requests 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:49.360 and um so yeah, it's not my first time experiencing 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.919 like a big news cycle, but this is certainly the 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.080 biggest one. Ye's I'm surprised that this is bigger than 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:58.920 the one life Happy for with other stories. Yeah, but 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.880 I feel like big coming a transferm meme at the 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.040 same time as I have like a national security new 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:10.080 cycle going on probably helped of it. I'm I'm I'm 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.479 very happy for weed cat like that, that that that 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.319 cat did, like that, every every single other thing that 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.800 has happened to weed cat is like done that thing dirty, 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.760 but I'm happy for Yeah. We cat is not just 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.640 like a hacking icon and I'm so here for it, 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.640 like like like just like like fifteen minutes before we 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.280 got un called, there's now a like Bengal meme from 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.920 the SCP Foundation on Oh my god, they commissioned an 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.520 artist to make a thing like it has just turned 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.520 into a thing now like that that's the way. It's goods. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:45.840 It's not even it's not even like the whole hacking 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.800 story anymore. It's just the fact that I tingled into 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.120 a meme like how how Yeah, and especially that Bengal 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.160 turned into a meme because that started as a like 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.720 discord in joke like that that's all it was. And 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.080 now it's the name of this well, okay, so we 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:03.920 should explain for it for people. For people who don't 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.720 know what this cat is. This is the Pokemon spriggary sprigarado. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:11.240 How do you I don't know how to properly pronounced 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.480 It's it's Italian. I I'm under no obligation to pronounce 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:20.120 an Italian sounding thing correctly. It's fine. Yeah, it's the 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.120 wheat cat, like wheat cat and Bingle are now the 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:30.640 only two acceptable names for this. Yeah. But in in 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.800 in in the blog where you went through and talked 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.880 about how you got the no filist by owning this thing, 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:41.000 you posted a picture of of of this. Yeah. I 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.840 did actually like take that picture while I was like 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:47.120 hacking this stuff and like talking in some like small 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.160 friends discord about it, and I just posted that together 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.839 with like the phrase this aviation should get serious. That's 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.040 why that's also in the blog. I expected that to 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.839 become the meme that blows up that this aviation ship 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:04.560 gets serious, because that's just so stupid. Yeah, but I 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.280 guess Bengle it is. And that's funny because yeah, it 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:09.880 was just an in choke nonsense word and now the 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.960 entire world knows about it and it's like a transferm thing. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:18.440 It rules. Yeah, So okay, I guess we should talk 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.920 about what actually you did. So I I am not 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.480 a very technical person. I'm out here defined like defying 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:30.560 transco stereotypes by sucking acid coding. Um, so, my my 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.040 understanding of what happened is you were browsing a list 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.000 of servers that are coming to the Internet that you 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:38.960 can use through sort of like various search engines that 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:43.320 do this, and you stop. You stumbled upon the server 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.480 that belongs to commute Air, and then they just like 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.440 I had a bunch of hard coded privileges there, and 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:53.600 like us, it's it's still it's still funny to me. 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.080 How Like I realized what it was because I saw 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.400 like the word eight cars and stuff, and I was like, wait, 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.920 that that's reminds me of like Mentor Pilot YouTube videos, 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.000 because of course I'm an autistic transfer and binge watch 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:10.240 Mentor Pilot while eating dinner. Um So, so that is 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.200 the only reason I clocked it as like an aviation thing, 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.680 and that's something I should dig into deeper, because like 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.919 you can imagine, like while I'm going through these search results, 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.479 I'm looking at like hundreds of servers in a day, 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:23.719 and most of the stuff I decided this boring or 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.760 it was too easy to hack, so I'm not going 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.719 further because I have a d H D um So, yeah, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:31.880 and then this cause I was like, wait, that's an 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.200 aviation word. I've heard that before. Um So I take 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:40.440 a little deeper and there were just passwords there, and 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.080 and then like two minutes after I found that server, 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.840 I was looking at like a car's messages, as in 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.280 like messaging between ground stations and airplanes, and that was 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.039 just like, yeah, this is a story, and started tweeting 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.120 about it, looking for journalists to work with because with 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.320 stories like this, I like to work with journals from 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.320 the very start because I want to make sure it 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:03.839 doesn't get wiped under the rock when I reported to 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.440 a company. So I make sure that when I do 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.800 reach out and get things fixed, I reach out via 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.120 journalists so that the company's not yet this is being 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.320 reported on so they can't be like, yeah, we will 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.800 fix it under the condition that you never tell anyone 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.280 about our bad security, because like the whole point of 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.640 what I'm doing is exposing like the security issues but 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.840 also exposing yeah, with a political background at the end 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.560 of the day. Yeah, And I guess like another thing 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.240 I don't I don't know how many people sort of 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.920 are aware of this, but like another thing that has 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:38.760 happened with people who are trying to go to companies 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.920 and been like, hey, here's the security thing is like 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.400 the company tries to like go after them criminally, like immediately, 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:50.400 which sucks ass and is the worst. Yeah. So so 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.680 so from that stand but it doesn't even matter if 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.280 I like do it like this are actually reported to them, 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.960 But this way I get to talk about the publicly 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.000 and like that's important, not because same on cloud, like 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:07.719 I don't mind the cloud, but like yeah, yeah, and 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:13.240 so okay, so uh, there's there's been a lot of 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:15.760 focus on the fact that you found the no fly 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:21.560 list on there, which is very funny. But okay, why 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.159 like okay, one thing I'm trying to figure out, why 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:27.880 was there Why were there just messages from like ground 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.960 cruise to airplanes just like sitting around on this random 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.320 server that's just like the exploded to the internet, right, 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.839 so the messages weren't directly on that server, but like 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.240 it's the server where they like for testing purposes, like 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.000 I don't know how much I can understand really, but 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.520 where they like test the software automatically and and so 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.119 there's all. And because of how they configured the server, 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.000 I could just have access to all the source code, 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.680 which included lots of passwords for example, for like the 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.800 server that then had the car's message saw it okay, 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.560 but yeah, or access credentials for APIs that would have 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:10.720 followed me to update the crew and or which like 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.400 if you think about that's almost the bigger story that 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.679 like at least theoretically could have been able to change 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:23.200 crew cruise because like that's the real terrorism risk. Yeah. 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.120 Like if I'm just like if I'm just allowed to 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.720 spell it out like that, like that that's the dream 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.560 of any Yeah. Yeah, like I mean you you know, 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:35.040 like I'm one of the things you were talking about 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.240 when when you're writing about this was that like journalists 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:38.960 thought that you were the one who had like caused 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:40.560 all of the flight delays. It was like, no, that 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.240 was just their computer breaking. No, but yeah, like that 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.240 was just funny because I didn't even know the thing 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.880 with with the f a A happened, but I was 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.560 like tweeting about, oh, I have a big aviation story. 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.520 Any journalists interested. It's like a security breach, and people 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.000 were like, wait, what did you do to the f 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:58.800 a A. And it was like what f a A? 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.720 So that happened, Like I am still not up to 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.920 date in US anymore. Yeah, I mean, so for people 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.040 who don't know what that story is. So basically, the 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.600 Federal Aviation Administration had a computer problem. It was very 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:14.440 the very very short version day the computer problem and 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.040 this grounded like a ship ton of flights because the 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.800 huge like computer bottlenecks where if it was we saw 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.960 this over like like like last month when there was 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.360 that when all of those flights got down by Southwestern 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.000 because the computer system just went down. It's the same 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:36.240 thing except us y. Yeah, but it's it's just funny 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.080 because yeah, I first found this server like exactly the 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.520 day after, like that was literally a day after the 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:47.160 f a A incident, So people are rightly assuming that 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.600 that was me, which obviously wasn't, but like it would 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.959 have been cool. Yeah, but it's also like it is 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:55.640 very disturbed to be like this kind of stuff is 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:57.920 just sitting there and like someone yeah could just like 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.720 theoretically going and screw with all of this stuff, which 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.000 is like and then also the fact that like there 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.400 was just all of like the personal information of all 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.199 of the pilots on. They're like, what the hell like 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.640 that is yeah that yeah, it's terrifying. Yeah, it's it 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:15.800 is crazy how much stuff is just out there, and 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.480 like that's part of what I try to show with 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.240 my work. It's just yeah, there's so much stuff out 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.280 there and it's just waiting to be found and I 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.360 both mean that in terms of like, yeah, you can 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.720 find ship if you try to, but also in the 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.160 sense of things are not secure, like yeah, like all 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.800 the systems are are like entire life depend on nowadays 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.640 not none of those systems are really secure. They're entirely 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.440 dependent on like one system administrator who doesn't get paid enough. 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.520 Our entire like computer systems depend on like a bunch 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:54.160 of furies being motivated enough to do their work. So basically, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.680 like the moral of the story is pay furies well. 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.560 And yeah, yeah, and this this is probably to look 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.280 at everything that I was thinking about when I was 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.640 looking at this, which is like, you know, okay, so 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.280 like when when when I was like a teenager like 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:09.520 one on one of the things that I think I 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.440 was the most wrong about that I believed was like 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.560 I actually genuinely believed that like automating cars was a 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.880 good idea because humans are really really bad at driving. 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:19.400 And then and then and then I had to learn 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.840 to program, and I had to like see scientists code, 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.439 and I had to I I I opened a program 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:26.920 and there's a section of it that no one knows 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:28.720 how it works. And I look, I look at the 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.440 notes and the notes say, I don't I didn't write this. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:33.240 I don't know how it works. This is produced, This 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.320 is produced at four am on like like seven milligrams 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:41.200 of caffeine. And that's like, yeah, on at least caffeine 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:46.679 if yeah, well these are these were astronomers, So I 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.280 I think it was actually just a lot of caffeine 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.400 and not fines. But yeah, like you know, and then 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.200 I had the realization the only single thing that we 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.960 as humans are worse at than driving is coding exactly, yeah, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:00.839 we are, we are even works at that. And then 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.839 the other thing we're also very bad at is labeling data, 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.720 which is like the whole thing machine learning is dependent, 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:12.000 like because like the entire intelligence of like an automative car, 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.160 like a self driving car, is entirely dependent on how 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:20.240 intelligent the like underpaid workers and Kenya are getting paid 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:24.040 like two bucks an hour to label things as car, human, 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.960 and child and then make moral decisions of whether or 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.960 not those should get run over. Um, like yeah, like 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:33.400 this is you know what what of One of my 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.679 sort of political things that I'm coming to is I 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.560 I think the only person people who should be allowed 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:40.319 to do machine learning are astronomers and no one else 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.920 should be allowed to do it, and even they know 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:44.720 because they have to. They like they have a legitimate reason, 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.600 which is that like they actually a they're doing a 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.400 bunch of big dates, like most of astronomy is just 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:53.120 big data analysis, and then be like the analysis itself 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.240 doesn't really hurt anyone. Uh, you you can argue about 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:01.000 the telescopes, but like you're not, You're not, Like, yeah, 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:05.400 just like anything that involves humans probably yeah, involves AI 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:09.120 in anyone. Yeah, that's terrible idea, but yeah, I guess, 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.040 I guess. Okay, So circling back around to the point 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.000 I was going to make and then forgot distracted talking 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:17.840 about AI because such as the world, Um yeah, so 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.040 you know, it's really remarkable to me, like how little 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.360 technical skill you need to just like absolutely own enormous 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.679 corporations and governments and you know. But but the other 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:30.600 thing that that's that struck me about this, that I've 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.920 been thinking about for a while is that like, Okay, 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:36.960 on the one hand, you have how easy hacking is, 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.160 like like this server stuff is like easier than the 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:40.679 stuff that I remember back in the day, which is 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:46.280 a lot of like people like you someone somewhere long 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.600 ago in a galaxy far far away, wrote like a 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:50.480 script and then you just copy and paste it into 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.679 like every single text box on a web page, and 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.480 like that's I think, like that's probably maybe like more 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.319 hackery quote unquote than just like looking through a list 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.000 of servers. But like even that is like the level 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.280 of technical sophistication is so low or or you know, 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.960 you don't need technically it's just need to be stupid 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.520 enough to pull it up. Like yeah, but but you know, 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:13.520 but it's the thing that I realized about this and 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.280 I was thinking about this was like, on the one hand, 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.520 the level technical sophistication to you for this is extreme below. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.880 On the other hand, one of the sort of like 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.000 like one of one of the sort of trends of 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.120 the way capitalism has been distributing digital technology, which is 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.079 sort of by apping it like by by sorry, which 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.720 has been packing it into apps in these closed guarding 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.800 ecosystems and like putting us in between you and like 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.960 what like you and what's actually happening in your computer 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.840 has been you know, it's it's been designing in a 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:43.319 way to make a quote unquote consumer friendly, but also 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.440 it's been designed in a way such that like successive 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.120 generations of computer users just have less and less knowledge 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.839 of how their devices technology actually work. Yeah, that's like 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.200 like there's that whole thing of like about how how 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.719 like younger kids don't understand the cala the fault is 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.800 anymore because like that's completely abstracted away on like smartphones, 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.520 chrome book in particular, which I genuinely think we need 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.520 to ban chromebooks in schools, like just just like for 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.439 for for the sake of human big of a thing 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:19.640 that isn't Yeah, it's awful, Like, oh god, they're the worst. Yeah, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.200 I don't know, like at the end of today. That's 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.400 what I wanted to say earlier about like how easy 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.600 it is to hack all the paper operations and stuff. 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.840 And it's just like the answer as to why it's 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.920 just capitalism. It's it's cheaper not to give a ship 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:36.160 about cybersecurity. It's cheaper to just pay when you get 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.800 hacked than to like secure your ship upfront, because like 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.280 the only people that will really suffer is like your 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.280 customers and your employees, and they can forget your your shareholders, 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.280 they're gonna be just fine, you know, and you you 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.440 look at the way the regulatory structure works is like, okay, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.200 so what what what happens if you get in trouble 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:57.200 something like this, Well the government takes a cut. That's it. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.880 that's that's it. Like it's literally it's it's literally like 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:05.000 you can budget getting there. There's cyber insurance now you 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.960 can get insured against getting hacked. Like like it's it's 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.280 just capitalism out of work. And I feel like one 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:13.880 of the things that one of the things that journalists 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.760 have sort of I don't know, and I understand why 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:18.520 they focus on it, but I feel like there's a 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.160 lot of focus in in sort of like in tech 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.960 journalism and journalism on sort of hacking stuff in like 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.800 the really big sophisticated like stut Nicks or what was 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.400 the what was the more recent one I can remember 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:31.840 the name of people like yeah, like there were the 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.000 really sort of convoluted trawling program and things that like 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.040 you know, take Nayan state level of resources and it's like, well, yeah, 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:38.520 you know this this was always the thing with like 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.280 the with like the n s A to where it's like, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.640 well okay, so the the the the the the the 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:43.920 On the on the one hand, the n s A 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.680 does have enough money to like spend like fifty million 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.400 dollars factoring one numbers like a break a bunch of encryption. 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.720 On the other hand, like they can just force US 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.240 companies definitely and also give them access. And also like 0:15:58.480 --> 0:15:59.840 I don't know they can they can get most of 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.080 information because like some server admin in like a farm 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.200 in like the middle of world, Nebraska, like misconfigured a file, 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.760 like misconfigured the server. So like, you know, I don't know. 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.520 That's That's what I find funny about the things I find, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.960 because I like almost exclusively go for like the low 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.680 hanging fruit, because like why would I invest more effort 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:22.920 when I can get the really big scoops like this. 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.040 And also sometimes sometimes I do kind of think about how, hey, 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.840 you know, like maybe I just cut off access to 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.720 the CIA. Maybe this was like how the CIA got 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.160 this access. Maybe maybe the n s A was here 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.160 obviously most likely not in most cases, but it's just 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.560 a funny little thought of like who did I just 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.440 kind of access by reporting this? I will say this, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.120 like I can't imagine that there isn't someone at the 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:49.680 n s A, and there isn't someone at the Cia, 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.480 whose job it is is to do exactly the same 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.000 thing you do, and like scrolling server list every day, 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.480 like absolutely like like like that. That's why by now 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.880 I you sue my like for the surgeon since the 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.160 show don which is like the famous U S one, 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.000 which is why I still always say I found it 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.800 on show them, even though by now I use because 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.240 showdown has like half of like all U S I 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.760 P centered and they have an artificial delay between finding 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.480 the servers and showing them to you and have really 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.080 bad search. And I'm pretty sure it's just because at 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.560 one point the US government got upset because they kept 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:26.160 getting yeah uh and so yeah, but like the Chinese 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.160 are very willing to give me all the scieties ever 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.000 that that they too centsor a lot of Chinese I 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.080 P s though, but I think a lot of that 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.040 was so I was I was trying to figure out 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.439 why that name was relation. But then I had this. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.440 I remembered that there was a story where some researcher 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.199 did like almost the exact same thing you did to 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.000 a Chinese security company and found out that they were 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.000 doing I guess what, exactly the same ship the US 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.240 government was doing, which was using using a bunch of 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.399 valance cameras to spy on Muslims, and it was like, well, 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.960 this is great. Yeah, it's it's always like like it's 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:03.560 always appointing and doing the same thing, like yeah, okay, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.320 so we unfortunately going to have to take an ad break. 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.680 I yeah, but then once we returned from capitalism, we 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:25.199 will go back to opposing capitalism. Welcome to three, all right, 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.320 and we're back. Yeah. So speaking of any capitalism, that 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.240 was another thing I wanted to sort of talk about, 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.800 which is said, Okay, so like long long, long ago, 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.480 in a galaxy far far away, little little little baby, 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:40.440 fifteen year old Mia was radicalized, like back back, back 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.840 back when I was overthrowing trying to overthrow my first government. 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.000 It was um a lot a lot of it was 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:47.760 being in the same sphere as a lot of sort 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.399 of anxiout hackers that were in the sort of like 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.560 loose anonymous sphere. But you know, by by like sixteen, 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:55.920 like that stuff was kind of falling apart, like partially 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.720 because of in fighting, partially because of fat infiltration, partially 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.840 because you like everyone got arrested. Yeah, yeah, point all 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.120 the big players have been arrested, like three years prior. Yeah, 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:07.840 and and you know, and the other thing that was 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.920 going on too, I think was like Anonymous, like it's 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.800 politics were always really incoherent, like you you had, I 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.399 don't know, you're just like everyone. Like the thing I 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.680 remember was there was a big split between like basically 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.879 the fascist and the anarchists between like like over Trump specifically. 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.879 Like yeah, I think the thing with Anonymous is just 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.199 like the way it started. It started. It's just like 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.040 a group of tropics before Janet it was like, well, okay, 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.200 the pic just say, like I mean, it makes sense 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.880 that Anonymous is the way it is and has been 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.359 the way it has been. I think it's still like 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.040 important that it exists and that it motivates people. Uh, 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:50.080 Like I have been involved with Anonymous before. There's the 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.520 one thing I can talk about with like Operation Mean 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.520 Mar where we did like support things. Um that was 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:01.600 shortly before my indictment. But yeah, it's it's interesting like 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:06.560 Anonymous brings people together to do operations and that's what 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.680 they do, and they can do pr for stuff. Uh yeah, 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.520 I don't want to like them. Yeah no, but I think, 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.119 like I think, especially especially like in life, like when 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:19.720 I was got involved with Chilse' thirteen. It was like 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.439 like it was it was a lot different, like it 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.439 was you know, like a thing. Yeah, it was. It was. 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.760 It was like a thing. And also it wasn't just 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.399 like like it wasn't just that it was sort of 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.840 like Okay, we're like we're like trolling, trolling a government 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.000 by like taking down their web pages or whatever, like 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:39.800 they were actually sort of there was like there was 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.800 real coordination between like people like you know, revolutionaries on 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.040 the ground in like Egypt, Uran, like Brazil, that and 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.919 that like that does still happened, Yeah, but does still happened. 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.760 It's just less of a public thing like that was 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.919 what we did. And and as well as where we 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.480 did communications with people on the ground where we helped 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.320 them communicate among each other, where we helped them keep 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.399 the internet got up even when the government tried to 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:06.600 turn it off. Other fund other other fun shenanigans like that, 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.800 and also archival and that like just in case some 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:12.760