Speaker 1: Welcome Did it Happened Here? A podcast about things falling
Speaker 1: apart and how to put them back together again? Wow,
Speaker 1: I'm your host, me along, And today I am returning
Speaker 1: to my roots and the CD Criminal Anarchist Hacker Underground,
Speaker 1: which has gotten much less ceed and somehow even more
Speaker 1: gay since I was last there and with with me
Speaker 1: to talk about this is Maya Arson Crime you who
Speaker 1: is most recently famous as the person who owned an
Speaker 1: airline so hard they got a copy of the fucking
Speaker 1: no flight list, which is yeah, just just first day things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Maya, how how are how are you? How are
Speaker 1: you doing? Being deluged with when Trilli an interview requests
Speaker 1: and um so yeah, it's not my first time experiencing
Speaker 1: like a big news cycle, but this is certainly the
Speaker 1: biggest one. Ye's I'm surprised that this is bigger than
Speaker 1: the one life Happy for with other stories. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I feel like big coming a transferm meme at the
Speaker 1: same time as I have like a national security new
Speaker 1: cycle going on probably helped of it. I'm I'm I'm
Speaker 1: very happy for weed cat like that, that that that
Speaker 1: cat did, like that, every every single other thing that
Speaker 1: has happened to weed cat is like done that thing dirty,
Speaker 1: but I'm happy for Yeah. We cat is not just
Speaker 1: like a hacking icon and I'm so here for it,
Speaker 1: like like like just like like fifteen minutes before we
Speaker 1: got un called, there's now a like Bengal meme from
Speaker 1: the SCP Foundation on Oh my god, they commissioned an
Speaker 1: artist to make a thing like it has just turned
Speaker 1: into a thing now like that that's the way. It's goods.
Speaker 1: It's not even it's not even like the whole hacking
Speaker 1: story anymore. It's just the fact that I tingled into
Speaker 1: a meme like how how Yeah, and especially that Bengal
Speaker 1: turned into a meme because that started as a like
Speaker 1: discord in joke like that that's all it was. And
Speaker 1: now it's the name of this well, okay, so we
Speaker 1: should explain for it for people. For people who don't
Speaker 1: know what this cat is. This is the Pokemon spriggary sprigarado.
Speaker 1: How do you I don't know how to properly pronounced
Speaker 1: It's it's Italian. I I'm under no obligation to pronounce
Speaker 1: an Italian sounding thing correctly. It's fine. Yeah, it's the
Speaker 1: wheat cat, like wheat cat and Bingle are now the
Speaker 1: only two acceptable names for this. Yeah. But in in
Speaker 1: in in the blog where you went through and talked
Speaker 1: about how you got the no filist by owning this thing,
Speaker 1: you posted a picture of of of this. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: did actually like take that picture while I was like
Speaker 1: hacking this stuff and like talking in some like small
Speaker 1: friends discord about it, and I just posted that together
Speaker 1: with like the phrase this aviation should get serious. That's
Speaker 1: why that's also in the blog. I expected that to
Speaker 1: become the meme that blows up that this aviation ship
Speaker 1: gets serious, because that's just so stupid. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: guess Bengle it is. And that's funny because yeah, it
Speaker 1: was just an in choke nonsense word and now the
Speaker 1: entire world knows about it and it's like a transferm thing.
Speaker 1: It rules. Yeah, So okay, I guess we should talk
Speaker 1: about what actually you did. So I I am not
Speaker 1: a very technical person. I'm out here defined like defying
Speaker 1: transco stereotypes by sucking acid coding. Um, so, my my
Speaker 1: understanding of what happened is you were browsing a list
Speaker 1: of servers that are coming to the Internet that you
Speaker 1: can use through sort of like various search engines that
Speaker 1: do this, and you stop. You stumbled upon the server
Speaker 1: that belongs to commute Air, and then they just like
Speaker 1: I had a bunch of hard coded privileges there, and
Speaker 1: like us, it's it's still it's still funny to me.
Speaker 1: How Like I realized what it was because I saw
Speaker 1: like the word eight cars and stuff, and I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: that that's reminds me of like Mentor Pilot YouTube videos,
Speaker 1: because of course I'm an autistic transfer and binge watch
Speaker 1: Mentor Pilot while eating dinner. Um So, so that is
Speaker 1: the only reason I clocked it as like an aviation thing,
Speaker 1: and that's something I should dig into deeper, because like
Speaker 1: you can imagine, like while I'm going through these search results,
Speaker 1: I'm looking at like hundreds of servers in a day,
Speaker 1: and most of the stuff I decided this boring or
Speaker 1: it was too easy to hack, so I'm not going
Speaker 1: further because I have a d H D um So, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then this cause I was like, wait, that's an
Speaker 1: aviation word. I've heard that before. Um So I take
Speaker 1: a little deeper and there were just passwords there, and
Speaker 1: and then like two minutes after I found that server,
Speaker 1: I was looking at like a car's messages, as in
Speaker 1: like messaging between ground stations and airplanes, and that was
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, this is a story, and started tweeting
Speaker 1: about it, looking for journalists to work with because with
Speaker 1: stories like this, I like to work with journals from
Speaker 1: the very start because I want to make sure it
Speaker 1: doesn't get wiped under the rock when I reported to
Speaker 1: a company. So I make sure that when I do
Speaker 1: reach out and get things fixed, I reach out via
Speaker 1: journalists so that the company's not yet this is being
Speaker 1: reported on so they can't be like, yeah, we will
Speaker 1: fix it under the condition that you never tell anyone
Speaker 1: about our bad security, because like the whole point of
Speaker 1: what I'm doing is exposing like the security issues but
Speaker 1: also exposing yeah, with a political background at the end
Speaker 1: of the day. Yeah, And I guess like another thing
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how many people sort of
Speaker 1: are aware of this, but like another thing that has
Speaker 1: happened with people who are trying to go to companies
Speaker 1: and been like, hey, here's the security thing is like
Speaker 1: the company tries to like go after them criminally, like immediately,
Speaker 1: which sucks ass and is the worst. Yeah. So so
Speaker 1: so from that stand but it doesn't even matter if
Speaker 1: I like do it like this are actually reported to them,
Speaker 1: But this way I get to talk about the publicly
Speaker 1: and like that's important, not because same on cloud, like
Speaker 1: I don't mind the cloud, but like yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: so okay, so uh, there's there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: focus on the fact that you found the no fly
Speaker 1: list on there, which is very funny. But okay, why
Speaker 1: like okay, one thing I'm trying to figure out, why
Speaker 1: was there Why were there just messages from like ground
Speaker 1: cruise to airplanes just like sitting around on this random
Speaker 1: server that's just like the exploded to the internet, right,
Speaker 1: so the messages weren't directly on that server, but like
Speaker 1: it's the server where they like for testing purposes, like
Speaker 1: I don't know how much I can understand really, but
Speaker 1: where they like test the software automatically and and so
Speaker 1: there's all. And because of how they configured the server,
Speaker 1: I could just have access to all the source code,
Speaker 1: which included lots of passwords for example, for like the
Speaker 1: server that then had the car's message saw it okay,
Speaker 1: but yeah, or access credentials for APIs that would have
Speaker 1: followed me to update the crew and or which like
Speaker 1: if you think about that's almost the bigger story that
Speaker 1: like at least theoretically could have been able to change
Speaker 1: crew cruise because like that's the real terrorism risk. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like if I'm just like if I'm just allowed to
Speaker 1: spell it out like that, like that that's the dream
Speaker 1: of any Yeah. Yeah, like I mean you you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm one of the things you were talking about
Speaker 1: when when you're writing about this was that like journalists
Speaker 1: thought that you were the one who had like caused
Speaker 1: all of the flight delays. It was like, no, that
Speaker 1: was just their computer breaking. No, but yeah, like that
Speaker 1: was just funny because I didn't even know the thing
Speaker 1: with with the f a A happened, but I was
Speaker 1: like tweeting about, oh, I have a big aviation story.
Speaker 1: Any journalists interested. It's like a security breach, and people
Speaker 1: were like, wait, what did you do to the f
Speaker 1: a A. And it was like what f a A?
Speaker 1: So that happened, Like I am still not up to
Speaker 1: date in US anymore. Yeah, I mean, so for people
Speaker 1: who don't know what that story is. So basically, the
Speaker 1: Federal Aviation Administration had a computer problem. It was very
Speaker 1: the very very short version day the computer problem and
Speaker 1: this grounded like a ship ton of flights because the
Speaker 1: huge like computer bottlenecks where if it was we saw
Speaker 1: this over like like like last month when there was
Speaker 1: that when all of those flights got down by Southwestern
Speaker 1: because the computer system just went down. It's the same
Speaker 1: thing except us y. Yeah, but it's it's just funny
Speaker 1: because yeah, I first found this server like exactly the
Speaker 1: day after, like that was literally a day after the
Speaker 1: f a A incident, So people are rightly assuming that
Speaker 1: that was me, which obviously wasn't, but like it would
Speaker 1: have been cool. Yeah, but it's also like it is
Speaker 1: very disturbed to be like this kind of stuff is
Speaker 1: just sitting there and like someone yeah could just like
Speaker 1: theoretically going and screw with all of this stuff, which
Speaker 1: is like and then also the fact that like there
Speaker 1: was just all of like the personal information of all
Speaker 1: of the pilots on. They're like, what the hell like
Speaker 1: that is yeah that yeah, it's terrifying. Yeah, it's it
Speaker 1: is crazy how much stuff is just out there, and
Speaker 1: like that's part of what I try to show with
Speaker 1: my work. It's just yeah, there's so much stuff out
Speaker 1: there and it's just waiting to be found and I
Speaker 1: both mean that in terms of like, yeah, you can
Speaker 1: find ship if you try to, but also in the
Speaker 1: sense of things are not secure, like yeah, like all
Speaker 1: the systems are are like entire life depend on nowadays
Speaker 1: not none of those systems are really secure. They're entirely
Speaker 1: dependent on like one system administrator who doesn't get paid enough.
Speaker 1: Our entire like computer systems depend on like a bunch
Speaker 1: of furies being motivated enough to do their work. So basically,
Speaker 1: like the moral of the story is pay furies well.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, and this this is probably to look
Speaker 1: at everything that I was thinking about when I was
Speaker 1: looking at this, which is like, you know, okay, so
Speaker 1: like when when when I was like a teenager like
Speaker 1: one on one of the things that I think I
Speaker 1: was the most wrong about that I believed was like
Speaker 1: I actually genuinely believed that like automating cars was a
Speaker 1: good idea because humans are really really bad at driving.
Speaker 1: And then and then and then I had to learn
Speaker 1: to program, and I had to like see scientists code,
Speaker 1: and I had to I I I opened a program
Speaker 1: and there's a section of it that no one knows
Speaker 1: how it works. And I look, I look at the
Speaker 1: notes and the notes say, I don't I didn't write this.
Speaker 1: I don't know how it works. This is produced, This
Speaker 1: is produced at four am on like like seven milligrams
Speaker 1: of caffeine. And that's like, yeah, on at least caffeine
Speaker 1: if yeah, well these are these were astronomers, So I
Speaker 1: I think it was actually just a lot of caffeine
Speaker 1: and not fines. But yeah, like you know, and then
Speaker 1: I had the realization the only single thing that we
Speaker 1: as humans are worse at than driving is coding exactly, yeah,
Speaker 1: we are, we are even works at that. And then
Speaker 1: the other thing we're also very bad at is labeling data,
Speaker 1: which is like the whole thing machine learning is dependent,
Speaker 1: like because like the entire intelligence of like an automative car,
Speaker 1: like a self driving car, is entirely dependent on how
Speaker 1: intelligent the like underpaid workers and Kenya are getting paid
Speaker 1: like two bucks an hour to label things as car, human,
Speaker 1: and child and then make moral decisions of whether or
Speaker 1: not those should get run over. Um, like yeah, like
Speaker 1: this is you know what what of One of my
Speaker 1: sort of political things that I'm coming to is I
Speaker 1: I think the only person people who should be allowed
Speaker 1: to do machine learning are astronomers and no one else
Speaker 1: should be allowed to do it, and even they know
Speaker 1: because they have to. They like they have a legitimate reason,
Speaker 1: which is that like they actually a they're doing a
Speaker 1: bunch of big dates, like most of astronomy is just
Speaker 1: big data analysis, and then be like the analysis itself
Speaker 1: doesn't really hurt anyone. Uh, you you can argue about
Speaker 1: the telescopes, but like you're not, You're not, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: just like anything that involves humans probably yeah, involves AI
Speaker 1: in anyone. Yeah, that's terrible idea, but yeah, I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess. Okay, So circling back around to the point
Speaker 1: I was going to make and then forgot distracted talking
Speaker 1: about AI because such as the world, Um yeah, so
Speaker 1: you know, it's really remarkable to me, like how little
Speaker 1: technical skill you need to just like absolutely own enormous
Speaker 1: corporations and governments and you know. But but the other
Speaker 1: thing that that's that struck me about this, that I've
Speaker 1: been thinking about for a while is that like, Okay,
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have how easy hacking is,
Speaker 1: like like this server stuff is like easier than the
Speaker 1: stuff that I remember back in the day, which is
Speaker 1: a lot of like people like you someone somewhere long
Speaker 1: ago in a galaxy far far away, wrote like a
Speaker 1: script and then you just copy and paste it into
Speaker 1: like every single text box on a web page, and
Speaker 1: like that's I think, like that's probably maybe like more
Speaker 1: hackery quote unquote than just like looking through a list
Speaker 1: of servers. But like even that is like the level
Speaker 1: of technical sophistication is so low or or you know,
Speaker 1: you don't need technically it's just need to be stupid
Speaker 1: enough to pull it up. Like yeah, but but you know,
Speaker 1: but it's the thing that I realized about this and
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this was like, on the one hand,
Speaker 1: the level technical sophistication to you for this is extreme below.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, one of the sort of like
Speaker 1: like one of one of the sort of trends of
Speaker 1: the way capitalism has been distributing digital technology, which is
Speaker 1: sort of by apping it like by by sorry, which
Speaker 1: has been packing it into apps in these closed guarding
Speaker 1: ecosystems and like putting us in between you and like
Speaker 1: what like you and what's actually happening in your computer
Speaker 1: has been you know, it's it's been designing in a
Speaker 1: way to make a quote unquote consumer friendly, but also
Speaker 1: it's been designed in a way such that like successive
Speaker 1: generations of computer users just have less and less knowledge
Speaker 1: of how their devices technology actually work. Yeah, that's like
Speaker 1: like there's that whole thing of like about how how
Speaker 1: like younger kids don't understand the cala the fault is
Speaker 1: anymore because like that's completely abstracted away on like smartphones,
Speaker 1: chrome book in particular, which I genuinely think we need
Speaker 1: to ban chromebooks in schools, like just just like for
Speaker 1: for for the sake of human big of a thing
Speaker 1: that isn't Yeah, it's awful, Like, oh god, they're the worst. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like at the end of today. That's
Speaker 1: what I wanted to say earlier about like how easy
Speaker 1: it is to hack all the paper operations and stuff.
Speaker 1: And it's just like the answer as to why it's
Speaker 1: just capitalism. It's it's cheaper not to give a ship
Speaker 1: about cybersecurity. It's cheaper to just pay when you get
Speaker 1: hacked than to like secure your ship upfront, because like
Speaker 1: the only people that will really suffer is like your
Speaker 1: customers and your employees, and they can forget your your shareholders,
Speaker 1: they're gonna be just fine, you know, and you you
Speaker 1: look at the way the regulatory structure works is like, okay,
Speaker 1: so what what what happens if you get in trouble
Speaker 1: something like this, Well the government takes a cut. That's it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's it. Like it's literally it's it's literally like
Speaker 1: you can budget getting there. There's cyber insurance now you
Speaker 1: can get insured against getting hacked. Like like it's it's
Speaker 1: just capitalism out of work. And I feel like one
Speaker 1: of the things that one of the things that journalists
Speaker 1: have sort of I don't know, and I understand why
Speaker 1: they focus on it, but I feel like there's a
Speaker 1: lot of focus in in sort of like in tech
Speaker 1: journalism and journalism on sort of hacking stuff in like
Speaker 1: the really big sophisticated like stut Nicks or what was
Speaker 1: the what was the more recent one I can remember
Speaker 1: the name of people like yeah, like there were the
Speaker 1: really sort of convoluted trawling program and things that like
Speaker 1: you know, take Nayan state level of resources and it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know this this was always the thing with like
Speaker 1: the with like the n s A to where it's like,
Speaker 1: well okay, so the the the the the the the
Speaker 1: On the on the one hand, the n s A
Speaker 1: does have enough money to like spend like fifty million
Speaker 1: dollars factoring one numbers like a break a bunch of encryption.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, like they can just force US
Speaker 1: companies definitely and also give them access. And also like
Speaker 1: I don't know they can they can get most of
Speaker 1: information because like some server admin in like a farm
Speaker 1: in like the middle of world, Nebraska, like misconfigured a file,
Speaker 1: like misconfigured the server. So like, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's That's what I find funny about the things I find,
Speaker 1: because I like almost exclusively go for like the low
Speaker 1: hanging fruit, because like why would I invest more effort
Speaker 1: when I can get the really big scoops like this.
Speaker 1: And also sometimes sometimes I do kind of think about how, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, like maybe I just cut off access to
Speaker 1: the CIA. Maybe this was like how the CIA got
Speaker 1: this access. Maybe maybe the n s A was here
Speaker 1: obviously most likely not in most cases, but it's just
Speaker 1: a funny little thought of like who did I just
Speaker 1: kind of access by reporting this? I will say this,
Speaker 1: like I can't imagine that there isn't someone at the
Speaker 1: n s A, and there isn't someone at the Cia,
Speaker 1: whose job it is is to do exactly the same
Speaker 1: thing you do, and like scrolling server list every day,
Speaker 1: like absolutely like like like that. That's why by now
Speaker 1: I you sue my like for the surgeon since the
Speaker 1: show don which is like the famous U S one,
Speaker 1: which is why I still always say I found it
Speaker 1: on show them, even though by now I use because
Speaker 1: showdown has like half of like all U S I
Speaker 1: P centered and they have an artificial delay between finding
Speaker 1: the servers and showing them to you and have really
Speaker 1: bad search. And I'm pretty sure it's just because at
Speaker 1: one point the US government got upset because they kept
Speaker 1: getting yeah uh and so yeah, but like the Chinese
Speaker 1: are very willing to give me all the scieties ever
Speaker 1: that that they too centsor a lot of Chinese I
Speaker 1: P s though, but I think a lot of that
Speaker 1: was so I was I was trying to figure out
Speaker 1: why that name was relation. But then I had this.
Speaker 1: I remembered that there was a story where some researcher
Speaker 1: did like almost the exact same thing you did to
Speaker 1: a Chinese security company and found out that they were
Speaker 1: doing I guess what, exactly the same ship the US
Speaker 1: government was doing, which was using using a bunch of
Speaker 1: valance cameras to spy on Muslims, and it was like, well,
Speaker 1: this is great. Yeah, it's it's always like like it's
Speaker 1: always appointing and doing the same thing, like yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so we unfortunately going to have to take an ad break.
Speaker 1: I yeah, but then once we returned from capitalism, we
Speaker 1: will go back to opposing capitalism. Welcome to three, all right,
Speaker 1: and we're back. Yeah. So speaking of any capitalism, that
Speaker 1: was another thing I wanted to sort of talk about,
Speaker 1: which is said, Okay, so like long long, long ago,
Speaker 1: in a galaxy far far away, little little little baby,
Speaker 1: fifteen year old Mia was radicalized, like back back, back
Speaker 1: back when I was overthrowing trying to overthrow my first government.
Speaker 1: It was um a lot a lot of it was
Speaker 1: being in the same sphere as a lot of sort
Speaker 1: of anxiout hackers that were in the sort of like
Speaker 1: loose anonymous sphere. But you know, by by like sixteen,
Speaker 1: like that stuff was kind of falling apart, like partially
Speaker 1: because of in fighting, partially because of fat infiltration, partially
Speaker 1: because you like everyone got arrested. Yeah, yeah, point all
Speaker 1: the big players have been arrested, like three years prior. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and you know, and the other thing that was
Speaker 1: going on too, I think was like Anonymous, like it's
Speaker 1: politics were always really incoherent, like you you had, I
Speaker 1: don't know, you're just like everyone. Like the thing I
Speaker 1: remember was there was a big split between like basically
Speaker 1: the fascist and the anarchists between like like over Trump specifically.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I think the thing with Anonymous is just
Speaker 1: like the way it started. It started. It's just like
Speaker 1: a group of tropics before Janet it was like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: the pic just say, like I mean, it makes sense
Speaker 1: that Anonymous is the way it is and has been
Speaker 1: the way it has been. I think it's still like
Speaker 1: important that it exists and that it motivates people. Uh,
Speaker 1: Like I have been involved with Anonymous before. There's the
Speaker 1: one thing I can talk about with like Operation Mean
Speaker 1: Mar where we did like support things. Um that was
Speaker 1: shortly before my indictment. But yeah, it's it's interesting like
Speaker 1: Anonymous brings people together to do operations and that's what
Speaker 1: they do, and they can do pr for stuff. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't want to like them. Yeah no, but I think,
Speaker 1: like I think, especially especially like in life, like when
Speaker 1: I was got involved with Chilse' thirteen. It was like
Speaker 1: like it was it was a lot different, like it
Speaker 1: was you know, like a thing. Yeah, it was. It was.
Speaker 1: It was like a thing. And also it wasn't just
Speaker 1: like like it wasn't just that it was sort of
Speaker 1: like Okay, we're like we're like trolling, trolling a government
Speaker 1: by like taking down their web pages or whatever, like
Speaker 1: they were actually sort of there was like there was
Speaker 1: real coordination between like people like you know, revolutionaries on
Speaker 1: the ground in like Egypt, Uran, like Brazil, that and
Speaker 1: that like that does still happened, Yeah, but does still happened.
Speaker 1: It's just less of a public thing like that was
Speaker 1: what we did. And and as well as where we
Speaker 1: did communications with people on the ground where we helped
Speaker 1: them communicate among each other, where we helped them keep
Speaker 1: the internet got up even when the government tried to
Speaker 1: turn it off. Other fund other other fun shenanigans like that,
Speaker 1: and also archival and that like just in case some
Speaker 1: kids that does decide to beat us literally every web
Speaker 1: page in the country, which is mostly nonsensical, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I do find it interesting how like yeah, there's
Speaker 1: like the twenty twelve, twenty thirteen generation that was mostly
Speaker 1: anonymous terminated and now we're in like this new generation
Speaker 1: where it's just small little groups. Yeah, and I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about that because it's much more decentralized. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's weird to talk about it because at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, I inspired a lot of it,
Speaker 1: which is really weird to say. It's so weird to
Speaker 1: say that. I like, but yeah, I'm kind of part
Speaker 1: of what revived activism and it sounds so so pretentious
Speaker 1: of me to just say that myself, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is kind of what happened in like yeah, and
Speaker 1: like that that was to be too, because it was
Speaker 1: it was very like I don't know, like the Susan
Speaker 1: twelve stuff was also like it was very very I
Speaker 1: guess media centered in a way where it was it
Speaker 1: was about drawing, like drawing masses of people into things
Speaker 1: and then using it to sort of get media attention,
Speaker 1: using it to sort of like I don't know, be
Speaker 1: be this sort of like online like also this sort
Speaker 1: of like online social movements in a way that I
Speaker 1: think it's very different than the modern stuff. So this
Speaker 1: is my conception of it, though, because I've also been
Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't know, I was off doing
Speaker 1: other stuff in twenty nineteen that had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with this, So yeah, I'm curious, Well, okay, how do
Speaker 1: I put this up? So I'm curious a like, how
Speaker 1: how you see the politics of these new groups either
Speaker 1: sort of as different from what came before it. I
Speaker 1: think it's hard for a lot of the groups, it's
Speaker 1: hard to like see what their politics are, and some
Speaker 1: of them aren't even Like there's things like the lack
Speaker 1: Sis that aren't specifically doing activism, but they're accidentally doing
Speaker 1: anti corporate activism by just making everything like uh, that's
Speaker 1: like groups that are like in the way that they
Speaker 1: operate are very clear and inspired by my work that
Speaker 1: I used to do um and they're just not very
Speaker 1: like political per se. They but but I still call
Speaker 1: them activists because even if it might not be their intention,
Speaker 1: they're doing activism and they're making corporations angry and wasting
Speaker 1: corporate resources, and in my book, that counts as like activism.
Speaker 1: And the fact that they in a way fight for
Speaker 1: like freedom of information, even if they might not be
Speaker 1: the goal. Yeah, I don't know, I feel like that
Speaker 1: is the man unifying factor now it's just a fight
Speaker 1: for information because like they're currently like the single biggest
Speaker 1: active activist thing happening right now, since like is just
Speaker 1: leaking the whole activism thing that happened before as well,
Speaker 1: but now that's like the main thing. Before it was
Speaker 1: often a lot like just didosing and stuff. But now
Speaker 1: we're so focused and like getting documents, getting software, getting files,
Speaker 1: getting like proof that things happened, getting fucking no fly list.
Speaker 1: It's just it's just a very different environment where like
Speaker 1: the goals are probably about the same in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, at least for the people who do have
Speaker 1: an ideology. But but like, yeah, I feel like it's
Speaker 1: just much more focused on like releasing information into the free,
Speaker 1: which I find really great. Like that that is kind
Speaker 1: of my big fight that I tried to devote myself too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask also sort of just about your
Speaker 1: personal archism, because I don't know, I like talking about
Speaker 1: narchism and yeah, everyone has to around. Um, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a difficult question, and I feel my
Speaker 1: answer to this question changes like every other thing. Um.
Speaker 1: I especially find it hard because like I am like
Speaker 1: doing work in very specific focus bits of like anarchists work,
Speaker 1: and so I don't really want to look myself into
Speaker 1: like I'm sorry. So so it's it's like very fluid.
Speaker 1: I'm just like obviously against states. I am like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's hard. No no governments, no shedy
Speaker 1: co operations, and it's just like having fun with friends
Speaker 1: and being gay. That is like the rules we take
Speaker 1: this is this is a good form of a Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just some form of like queer anarchism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: being gay and doing crimes, it's a it's a good
Speaker 1: it's a good thing. I guess in a way, like
Speaker 1: what kind of defines me and what keeps getting me
Speaker 1: into the spotlight is that I do just kind of
Speaker 1: have like a very strong moral compass and I go
Speaker 1: by that rather by what's legal or not legal or
Speaker 1: like sure, I try to stay with him like some
Speaker 1: safe boundaries, especially now like post indictment, um, given that
Speaker 1: they're definitely even more eyes on me now than than
Speaker 1: before and this podcast is definitely being played at some
Speaker 1: n Yeah, there's there's there's ah, so that's something to consider,
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, I feel like I feel like that's
Speaker 1: kind of what I want to demonstrate this that like,
Speaker 1: if you have morals, you can't just stick by them,
Speaker 1: Like no one is stopping you from doing that. They
Speaker 1: might try to, but like you can just stick with
Speaker 1: your morals. Yeah, and I think it's I think it's
Speaker 1: worth mentioning even like you know, okay, like a lot
Speaker 1: of people go to prison for doing stuff like this,
Speaker 1: some of them didn't like there there there's like, to
Speaker 1: the best of my knowledge, there is at least still
Speaker 1: one low set guy who's just in the wind who
Speaker 1: they never got and like and sick, like they they
Speaker 1: had a fed mole in the group and one of
Speaker 1: these people still got away. Fox up. Yeah, just just
Speaker 1: just fox. So I really don't do says basically the
Speaker 1: guy that the Feds flipped inside of Losak, who got
Speaker 1: it was at the prison. Um, Like I do have
Speaker 1: to say, I kind of get why he flipped, like
Speaker 1: he at that point already had a family and stuff.
Speaker 1: But like I get that it is hard, but still, yeah,
Speaker 1: gave up your friends, Yeah, you simply do not tasty like, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, and the fact that he still has
Speaker 1: some sort of image. Honestly, I don't know that it's
Speaker 1: just it's just infra sex commune. Uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting for sure, but yeah, I can't come
Speaker 1: in too much of a lot of fun. There are
Speaker 1: a lot of funny chokes to be made that I shouldn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Feds suck. I just I'm just gonna say that, like,
Speaker 1: oh god, it's it's been. It's it's it's been. It's
Speaker 1: been a bad week of Feds in the US too,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, honestly, just one thing again. But I am
Speaker 1: so curious what's going to happen with the Congression link. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw that, like, especially since
Speaker 1: like this means that the Republicans are going to be
Speaker 1: exposed to my block post presumably. Ah, And I am
Speaker 1: so excited for all the slurs they can come up with.
Speaker 1: It is going to be extremely funny. But I'm also
Speaker 1: very excited for like the Turfs to be like this
Speaker 1: is terrorism. See we'll be right along. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: have gotten that before. I have gotten terrfree place before
Speaker 1: on like articles about me where they were like see, no,
Speaker 1: women don't commit crime. So this is clear proof that
Speaker 1: it's just like what what are you talking about? This
Speaker 1: is this is my male cheenes coming out was like, man,
Speaker 1: like do do you do? You do? You do? You
Speaker 1: know what people what people did, so you have the
Speaker 1: right to vote, Like come on that, Like that's the
Speaker 1: funny thing is that they at the same time also
Speaker 1: like fetishizes the whole Suffragette thing. Yeah, I think, no
Speaker 1: fucking clue what that movement? Yeah, it's like no, no,
Speaker 1: no suffragette what what whatever? Horsewhip richie sunac not no
Speaker 1: turf whatever, unlike unlike the suffragettes, who Yeah, exactly, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's silly. I'm surprised how little harassment
Speaker 1: I've gotten on Twitter so far if we exclude the
Speaker 1: whole by lesbian this. Yeah, I'm so sorry for restarting that.
Speaker 1: This course, I think me talking about that single handedly
Speaker 1: restarted that this card. It just happened. It just happens periodically,
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, it's just funny because like I was
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, this is gonna get me some hatred place.
Speaker 1: But like within five minutes I had twenty one private quote. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean like my, my, my, I won't wake an
Speaker 1: official statement on that, which is that if you give
Speaker 1: a single ship about people calling themselves by lesbians, like,
Speaker 1: please let me know so who I can trade lives
Speaker 1: with you? Like you you seem to have like very
Speaker 1: few problems going on. I would love to like have
Speaker 1: grown up in the world where like that's like that's
Speaker 1: the thing that you think, Like, I don't know why
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's funny how there's people
Speaker 1: who were like wanting to follow me, wanting to interact
Speaker 1: with me as like and it's it's uh theory and
Speaker 1: kitten who like does uh funny things to the U. S. Government,
Speaker 1: But then they draw the line at at the specific sexuality. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like really like I I then made like a
Speaker 1: post where I was like, sorry, I deleted that I
Speaker 1: didn't I don't have the energy to deal with people
Speaker 1: getting so upset over an innocent word and that has
Speaker 1: gotten so many many quoteweets being like yeah, and then
Speaker 1: isn't word in question was by lesbian? I say if
Speaker 1: I said like the N word or something like that
Speaker 1: was literally the kind of response I got. And it's
Speaker 1: just like do you not have anything else to do? Like,
Speaker 1: like do you know how many people the cops killed
Speaker 1: last week? Can you please do something like come on
Speaker 1: and all the things are happening here right now, Like
Speaker 1: especially then when some of the people that come up
Speaker 1: with that are like non binary lesbians, which if you
Speaker 1: know anything about this purity in discourse, like half of
Speaker 1: the them would also like from the sounder because non
Speaker 1: binary lesbians also can't exist, and like it's why are
Speaker 1: you why? Why are you fighting for the turf? Like that?
Speaker 1: That is my one single question I have through all
Speaker 1: the fourteen year old careers on Twitter dot com. Also,
Speaker 1: why did that why did that escourse ever escape Tumbler?
Speaker 1: Like that was because because all the Tumbler refugees came
Speaker 1: to Twitter. Yeah, but they could have left a discourse there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but no, the world I don't know Twitter, Twitter, Twitter.
Speaker 1: The last like like okay, like Twitter's diress course has
Speaker 1: ever been good, but like in the last obviously it's
Speaker 1: just been getting worse. And it's it's yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: the same side, Like it's it's not even that it's
Speaker 1: just bad discourse. It's just the same discourse every week,
Speaker 1: And I'm just tired of it. And I guess now
Speaker 1: that I'm a big account, I have to have an
Speaker 1: opinion on everything. Um And also the fun part about
Speaker 1: being trans everyone is like like absolutely razor focused for
Speaker 1: like the exact one word that you say wrong so
Speaker 1: they can act, so they can like like legitimately quote
Speaker 1: unquote be t troobic at you. And it's like this
Speaker 1: is great, Like this is a great system that we've
Speaker 1: developed for existing with each other. You could simply not
Speaker 1: do this, Yeah, you can just say like that. The
Speaker 1: fact that literally, like I was like, I'm gonna see
Speaker 1: what happens if I by lesbian and then I can't
Speaker 1: wave twenty four followers, and and the fact that it
Speaker 1: literally took seconds for people to tell me to tell
Speaker 1: all their mutuals to unfollow me because I'm highly problematic.
Speaker 1: Um was it was quite interesting. And someone was just
Speaker 1: like this has completely shattered my world view, and I'm
Speaker 1: just like sorry, if your world view gets shattered by
Speaker 1: my sexuality, you have some soul seeking to do. Like yeah,
Speaker 1: like like like like like like actually like like I grew,
Speaker 1: I grew like like for some of them. For some people,
Speaker 1: me saying the phrase by lesbian was generally like my
Speaker 1: milkshake doc moment. Yeah, it was like it was like
Speaker 1: a second it called a second sexuality description as hit
Speaker 1: the towers, like it was, Yeah, it's so like god,
Speaker 1: it was like five am when I made that tweet.
Speaker 1: It was just like, oh, I'm going to get a
Speaker 1: little silly with it, and and I just expected like
Speaker 1: a backlash but not that much. It was just too much.
Speaker 1: And yeah, like I know, it's not like backlash that
Speaker 1: matters and I should just ignore it. But it's like
Speaker 1: so overwhelming. Yeah, I guess do you do you have
Speaker 1: anything else that you want to say? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think that's that covers like most of the things
Speaker 1: I have to talk about. H Yeah, just like be
Speaker 1: Ga to crime, Hacked the Planet, Oh my god, it
Speaker 1: was genuinely it is one of my favorite things in
Speaker 1: the world. That they made the movie Hackers, and it
Speaker 1: was the worst de picture. But then also like like
Speaker 1: I it was like so I did watch them. I mean, okay,
Speaker 1: I watched it, like not to the first time. Like
Speaker 1: it wasn't like like like I was, I was like
Speaker 1: not that well when I watched it, but it was
Speaker 1: after I like first ran into Hackers. So it took
Speaker 1: me a while to figure out that, like, wait, hold on, no,
Speaker 1: hack the Planet is the thing that everyone says, but
Speaker 1: that's actually because it's a joke for Hackers, which I see.
Speaker 1: I still find it funny how Hackers is a movie
Speaker 1: that got hacking culture completely wrong and changed it forever,
Speaker 1: because like because like there's I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: ever seen that, but from like Defcon from there's a
Speaker 1: page on the official Deacon website talking about how bad
Speaker 1: Hackers is and how it gets everything wrong and no
Speaker 1: one should watch this movie. And now you look at
Speaker 1: this like twenty years later, and that's just what hacking
Speaker 1: culture turned in. Yeah, the most incredible thing about Hackers
Speaker 1: is that someone managed to get the queerest fucking movie
Speaker 1: ever made made by one of the biggest companies in Hollywood,
Speaker 1: and also make it about hacking, and like it's it's
Speaker 1: the best piece of cinema ever. And I stand by this,
Speaker 1: like it fucking sucks in a lot of ways, but
Speaker 1: it's just they just managed to make a movie where
Speaker 1: no one has says somehow essentiallya shally like, so no
Speaker 1: one says it's pretty amazing. I will say the two
Speaker 1: Asian characters are kind of whack, but other than that,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, it's a it's a like like it's
Speaker 1: it's a whack movie. Like like if you look at
Speaker 1: it objectively, it's a pretty bad movie. Like like there's
Speaker 1: you know, there was like a lot of way stuff
Speaker 1: in the nineties is absolutely terrible. But also like there
Speaker 1: was stuff you could just do in movies in the
Speaker 1: nineties that like you can't now, like like okay, well,
Speaker 1: like what my example this is. I may have said
Speaker 1: this on the podcast before, but like they so they
Speaker 1: they did a like completely straight like modern day live
Speaker 1: adaptation of Romeo and Juliet that is like it's Romeo
Speaker 1: and Juliet. It's it's exactly the lines in Shakespeare, but
Speaker 1: it's like with characters set in like the like modern
Speaker 1: times and they're shooting guns each other, but like what
Speaker 1: what do these happens to? That is there's just like
Speaker 1: a black guy doing drag and it's just like a thing,
Speaker 1: like nobody comments on it, like it's just a thing
Speaker 1: that he's having a good time. And you could not
Speaker 1: like like people people people would show up to yeah,
Speaker 1: like people people which people like yeah, like I won't
Speaker 1: be on Tucker Carlson like like the people people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you'd have like mobs showing up in front of your
Speaker 1: house like it's yeah, yeah, like I don't know, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: if Hackers came out now, we would have like Tucker
Speaker 1: Carson complaining about the woke up trying to make the
Speaker 1: kids and too gay activists, Like I don't know. I
Speaker 1: love the movie so much, not not because it's good,
Speaker 1: but because it's culturally important. Yes, and yeah, and the
Speaker 1: characters are like great, like they made everyone career somehow,
Speaker 1: and I'm still not sure whether that was intentional or not.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I leaned towards they didn't know
Speaker 1: what they were doing, and that makes it even funnier. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes it so much better. And also the fact
Speaker 1: that it's like go off past like producers and everything,
Speaker 1: and it was mazing, the queerest piece of like Hollywood
Speaker 1: media I have ever seen that wasn't meant to be queer.
Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, yeah, cool time we went on
Speaker 1: this tension because yeah, we we we we we We
Speaker 1: simply love to see it be gay do crimes hack
Speaker 1: the planet? Uh, this is not legally for the FBI,
Speaker 1: This is not legally actionable. This is a joke. As
Speaker 1: you can tell, yes, from the movie Hackers, which you
Speaker 1: could watch Hackers, yeah in places. Yeah, if you can
Speaker 1: watch it very legally on the Internet. I actually don't
Speaker 1: know if it's on any streaming platform. I don't think
Speaker 1: I watched it. I think it is because I watched
Speaker 1: it with my family kind of recently, which was a
Speaker 1: wild time. It's probably streaming. Oh it's it's an Apple
Speaker 1: TV apparently. Yeah, so it's there. You can find it there.
Speaker 1: You can find it in other places. It can it
Speaker 1: can find it somewhere, both legally and illegally. If I'm
Speaker 1: allowed to endorse, like h piracy on your podcast, it's
Speaker 1: we we We did an entire episode about how the
Speaker 1: pirate stuff. So yeah, so yeah, you can find it
Speaker 1: both legally and illegally, and if you're lucky, I'm the
Speaker 1: one seeding the Torrent. And then I say, okay, but
Speaker 1: the other thing I actually should before you. If people
Speaker 1: want to find you, where can they find you? I'm
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Underscore nine crime you and in case
Speaker 1: Twitter suspends me once again for the sixth time, I
Speaker 1: have a website at Maya dot crime you dot k
Speaker 1: it rules. It's so good it Yes, that is the
Speaker 1: reason I'm famous now, it's just because my website is paying.
Speaker 1: It's great. Yeah. So this this has been make it
Speaker 1: Happen Here. You can find us at Happened Here pod,
Speaker 1: at Twitter, Instagram, UM yeah, I guess I am at
Speaker 1: BC R three, Uh yeah, go and go and crime.
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone
Speaker 1: Media or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our
Speaker 1: website cool zone media dot com, or check us out
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Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It
Speaker 1: could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot
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