Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this
Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 2: We need to.
Speaker 1: Talk about Candace Owens because and I can't believe I'm
Speaker 1: saying this is she kind of making a little bit.
Speaker 3: Of sense now.
Speaker 1: So last week on her podcast, Candace called out President
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. She criticized Trump's attacks on Harvard University, saying
Speaker 1: I never thought I'd see the day where I'd be
Speaker 1: rooting for our university over Donald J. Trump and his administration.
Speaker 1: But I don't recognize this administration right now. I don't
Speaker 1: recognize what's happening. So at face value, it sounds like
Speaker 1: she's kind of defending free speech. And yeah, you might
Speaker 1: be wondering, am I actually agreeing with Candace Owens a
Speaker 1: little bit? But hold up, don't get too comfortable, because
Speaker 1: this is not a change of heart for Candace Owens.
Speaker 1: It's a strategy Candace Owens, I think, is rebranding, and
Speaker 1: like always, she's using things like outrage and celebrity scandal
Speaker 1: to do it. In this episode, I dive into how
Speaker 1: Candace Owens is leveraging lawsuits like the one involving Blake
Speaker 1: Lively and Justin Buldani In the fallout of the film,
Speaker 1: it starts with us to package her politics for a softer,
Speaker 1: maybe less familiar audience. It's the same noxious content, just
Speaker 1: with a new code of paint. I broke down her
Speaker 1: playbook to my friends Samantha and Andy over at the
Speaker 1: podcast stuff Mom never.
Speaker 3: Told you.
Speaker 1: We are talking about the one the only Candace Owens
Speaker 1: speaking of villains, have my kidding, We'll see so like
Speaker 1: I should say, upcot like I am weirdly fascinated with her.
Speaker 1: What do you all have thoughts? She's somebody who who's
Speaker 1: on your radar? What is your experience, what are your
Speaker 1: experiences with Candace Owens?
Speaker 3: Or do you have any.
Speaker 4: Uh minor negative? Negative?
Speaker 5: But I most of most stuff I know is more recent,
Speaker 5: and I didn't know a lot of what I know
Speaker 5: we're going.
Speaker 4: To talk about in here.
Speaker 5: But I will say generally she's someone I'm very aware
Speaker 5: of and that have a lot of negative associations with.
Speaker 2: I will say, yes, I do know of her.
Speaker 3: Of course.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I immediately put me on
Speaker 2: high alert is that she is one person that my
Speaker 2: racist Trump supporting backwards brother has used as a token
Speaker 2: in saying, see, we love black people.
Speaker 1: Oh that is like that that has probably been the
Speaker 1: experience of so many folks listening. And I guess what
Speaker 1: I want to talk about today might actually answer why.
Speaker 1: That is because she is someone that people in my
Speaker 1: life have like cited or mentioned or like, oh I
Speaker 1: saw I saw Candace Owens talking about this, and I'm like, what,
Speaker 1: Like why are you watching Candace own where listening to
Speaker 1: her podcast? So like I am like weirdly fascinated by her.
Speaker 1: She is somebody who has a legitimately fascinating story and
Speaker 1: like where like from where she started to where she
Speaker 1: wound up, I just find deeply interesting. I don't want
Speaker 1: to focus too much on her like personal background, but
Speaker 1: there are some pieces of her early story that I
Speaker 1: do think are important context for like understanding who she
Speaker 1: is and sort of the role she has gone on.
Speaker 3: To occupy in the world.
Speaker 1: So, Owen's grew up in Stanford, Connecticut, and while she
Speaker 1: was a high school student there, she was like racially
Speaker 1: harassed in a pretty gnarly way. A classmate left her
Speaker 1: a racist death threat on her voicemail that ended up
Speaker 1: turning into like a pretty serious local scandal because it
Speaker 1: turned out the person her classmate that left that voicemail
Speaker 1: did so in a group of students that included the
Speaker 1: son of the then mayor and future Democratic governor of Connecticut,
Speaker 1: Daniel Maloy. So it got it was really really up
Speaker 1: into like a little bit of a scandal. Kendace got
Speaker 1: lots of support from the local chapter of Racial Justice
Speaker 1: Organizations at the NAACP, and our family ended up suing
Speaker 1: the Stanford Board of Education in federal court for failing
Speaker 1: to protect her rights, which resulted in a thirty seven,
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars settlement. After that, she goes on to
Speaker 1: study journalism at University of Rhode Island before dropping out.
Speaker 1: So this is really the part of her story where
Speaker 1: I have to be honest. I see some parallels between
Speaker 1: me and her. You know, we're both black women who
Speaker 1: were sort of early adopters of the Internet to talk
Speaker 1: about things like race and culture and politics like me.
Speaker 3: For her, that seems to have.
Speaker 1: Manifested in a lot of like low hanging fruit posts
Speaker 1: about you know, politics, like dumb jokes, like you know,
Speaker 1: the early days of blogging about politics online, it really
Speaker 1: was dumb jokes was like and like stupid memes were
Speaker 1: the lifeblood of that. And so in twenty fifteen she
Speaker 1: was writing blogs making fun of Trump's penis size to
Speaker 1: give you a sense of the kind of thing that
Speaker 1: she was writing about, which honestly is something I would I.
Speaker 3: Wasn't doing that, but I could see myself.
Speaker 4: Doing it great.
Speaker 2: I would definitely chuckle yeah if I saw it.
Speaker 1: So some people might be surprised to know that Candice
Speaker 1: actually started her career as like a public intellectual or
Speaker 1: republic opinion have or commentator or whatever you want to
Speaker 1: call it, as a leftist, like a progressive. In twenty fifteen,
Speaker 1: she was writing this blog called Degree one point eighty
Speaker 1: where she wrote pieces criticizing conservative Republicans, writing about quote
Speaker 1: the back crazy antics of the Republican tea Party. Something
Speaker 1: that she wrote in her blog was quote the good
Speaker 1: news is they will eventually die off peacefully in their sleep,
Speaker 1: we hope, and then we can get right on with
Speaker 1: the obvious social change that needs to happen immediately. So
Speaker 1: you really get a sense of her as someone who
Speaker 1: was just like young Obama era progressive using the early Internet,
Speaker 1: blogging and things like that to really put her voice,
Speaker 1: in her perspective into the world again.
Speaker 3: Something that I, frankly I can really see myself in.
Speaker 2: Is it surprising? It is, I guess her origins just
Speaker 2: I just knew as you came out swinging on the
Speaker 2: opposite end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what's interesting about that, and I can definitely
Speaker 1: speak from my own experience here, is that I connected
Speaker 1: with a lot of her early writing when she was
Speaker 1: still sort of like writing about the tea party and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, but certainly nobody knew who, Like she
Speaker 1: wasn't like a known voice or a no name right
Speaker 1: And I do think it speaks to the fact that,
Speaker 1: like when she switched up her ideology and her perspective
Speaker 1: and what she was talking about, she got so much
Speaker 1: more attention. Like I like, as a black woman leftist
Speaker 1: who talks about you know, lefty stuff on the internet,
Speaker 1: where are a diamad dozen, nobody is really paying that
Speaker 1: much attention. But when you when you do the switch up,
Speaker 1: you really become a much bigger name, and you get
Speaker 1: a lot more attention and a lot more engagement. And
Speaker 1: I think it's a lot more lucrative to be a
Speaker 1: black woman right winger than it is to be a
Speaker 1: black woman leftist.
Speaker 4: I was actually reading about this recently.
Speaker 5: Is the shadow of gamer Gate when it comes to
Speaker 5: the Internet, and how it looks today and how it's
Speaker 5: still like the impacts, just the fallout of it is
Speaker 5: still here.
Speaker 4: And that was a part of candice own story.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, so I am like you Annie, gamer Gate
Speaker 1: and everything surrounding it is my Roman empire. It is
Speaker 1: the thing that keeps me up. And I did a
Speaker 1: whole series with cool Zone Media about how gamer Gate
Speaker 1: and just general harassment against women and women of color
Speaker 1: and minoritize people. You could draw a direct line from
Speaker 1: that to like our political and social climate today, Like
Speaker 1: this is the stuff that I am like making a
Speaker 1: stringboard abad and being like and then this happened, and
Speaker 1: then that happened, and then ten years later this happened,
Speaker 1: Like this is my white whale. And Candace Owens was
Speaker 1: really like, this was a gamer Gate was really sort
Speaker 1: of like, well mean, she describes it as like a
Speaker 1: radicalizing moment for her. So in twenty sixteen, when Gamergate
Speaker 1: was in full swing, Owens launched a Kickstarter for a
Speaker 1: project she called Social Autopsy, which she described as a
Speaker 1: way to catalog the abuses of trolls and cyberbullies online.
Speaker 1: The Kickstarter for this project is still up today. Here's
Speaker 1: a little taste of Owen's describing it in her own words.
Speaker 6: It takes a nanosecond, a mere push of a button,
Speaker 6: to share our ideas, opinions, and emotions across the world instantly.
Speaker 6: But for every cat meme, your best friend tweets at you,
Speaker 6: every I miss you comment, your grandma leaves on your
Speaker 6: Facebook wall, there are literally thousands of instances of hate
Speaker 6: speech being circulated online because when communication happens through a screen,
Speaker 6: and when moments are experienced through relents, a terrifying extraction
Speaker 6: takes place.
Speaker 3: The age of.
Speaker 6: Technology and social media has slowly disintegrated individual accountability, the
Speaker 6: consequences of which are devastating.
Speaker 3: So that should give you a little bit of an
Speaker 3: idea of what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it really feels like a time capsule
Speaker 1: from a different time, you know, Like hearing Candice Owens
Speaker 1: talk about how bad things like hate speech are and
Speaker 1: how it's dividing us is like just very interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, throw off, Like like wait what same persons?
Speaker 1: Okay, No, So the plan for Social Autopsy was basically
Speaker 1: it was a project meant to like de anonymize online
Speaker 1: common and then connect them with their real life names
Speaker 1: and then real life employers. And it's funny because this
Speaker 1: is still an argument that people make when they want
Speaker 1: to restrict the Internet today, that like all the problems
Speaker 1: that happen on the Internet, from harassment to child exploitation material,
Speaker 1: all of that could all be solved if you needed,
Speaker 1: like your government ID to access the Internet. And so
Speaker 1: it's funny how these ideas, there are people pushing that
Speaker 1: concept today and even I mean, like some people who
Speaker 1: are well meaning but in my opinion, incorrect, are still
Speaker 1: pushing that idea. And so it's funny how some of
Speaker 1: these ideas never really die. They're just recycled. Like Cannonce
Speaker 1: Owen's was talking about this in twenty sixteen, and here
Speaker 1: we are in twenty twenty five, still talking about it.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes we are.
Speaker 5: But oh my goodness, speaking of things, we're still talking
Speaker 5: about Another thing we've talked about a lot on this show.
Speaker 5: Another thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is
Speaker 5: the radicalization that can happened online. And Candace Owens kind
Speaker 5: of talks about this. This is sort of her experience
Speaker 5: with Gagate.
Speaker 1: So when she exactly that, So when she came out
Speaker 1: with Social Autopsy, pretty much everybody hated it right, like
Speaker 1: it was like a universal digital boo or like thumbs down.
Speaker 1: And one of the people who was like really not
Speaker 1: into this idea was Zoe Quinn, whose name you might
Speaker 1: know if you know about Gamergate, because she was someone
Speaker 1: who was pretty viciously attacked in Gamergate. So after all
Speaker 1: of the backlash from this project that Candace tried to
Speaker 1: put out into the world via Kickstarter, she herself was
Speaker 1: doxed and harassed, and Candace actually blamed Zoe Quinn and
Speaker 1: other feminists for this harassment and started saying so publicly,
Speaker 1: you can probably guess who.
Speaker 3: Loved this and like seized on it.
Speaker 1: That's right, people like Miloianapolis, people who were promoters of
Speaker 1: Gamergate and like doing the harassment of Gamergate really hyped
Speaker 1: up Owens's that, Yeah, it's the feminists who are the
Speaker 1: ones who were doing the actual online harassment, not you know,
Speaker 1: these gamer bros and like right wingers. It's actually feminists
Speaker 1: who are the bad guys here. And this event Owen's
Speaker 1: credits with her turn from progressive to being what she
Speaker 1: calls a red pilled radical. She says, quote, I became
Speaker 1: a conservative overnight. I realized that liberals were actually the racists.
Speaker 1: Liberals were actually the trolls, and so Annie, you're exactly
Speaker 1: right that. Like, she describes this as like an overnight
Speaker 1: turning point of her going from being a progressive who
Speaker 1: was collaborating with the NAACP and writing about how awful
Speaker 1: Republicans and Trump and the Tea Party Republicans were to
Speaker 1: like overnight waking up and being like, no, it is
Speaker 1: liberals who are the real enemy.
Speaker 2: I have so many thoughts because I don't I was
Speaker 2: not a part of the gamergate world. Like I did
Speaker 2: not understand what was happening out there in the internets
Speaker 2: because I was case managing and like groveling in my
Speaker 2: own like everything's worse. But like her being dogs and
Speaker 2: all this, because I'm sure just as many like people
Speaker 2: who were feminists and who were victims of gamer gait
Speaker 2: and such, there were more probably jerks out there who
Speaker 2: were like, no, we were definitely against this idea and
Speaker 2: harassing her because they don't want their name out there,
Speaker 2: which is what she was trying to do, right, So,
Speaker 2: but she just picked a group, Like, no, it's definitely
Speaker 2: after she got so much support totally.
Speaker 1: So my understanding is that, like and if folks listening
Speaker 1: are like I was there. Remember, as far as I know,
Speaker 1: this was like feminists having good faith disagreement with Candace's project,
Speaker 1: and then Candace probably pumped up by some of these
Speaker 1: like right wing bro gamer guys who were behind a
Speaker 1: lot of this harassment and like we have all the
Speaker 1: receipts for that, probably pumped up by some of them
Speaker 1: just like just like assumed that these feminists were the
Speaker 1: ones behind it. So like, as far as I know,
Speaker 1: she this was not a documented thing. But you know, certainly,
Speaker 1: like like I was, I was like pretty in.
Speaker 3: The mix on the internet in these days.
Speaker 1: Certainly this feud between Candace Owens and feminists like Zoquinn
Speaker 1: about Gamergate was something that like got her name into
Speaker 1: the conversation in a way that I don't think it
Speaker 1: had been before.
Speaker 2: And for a lot of attention seekers. Not that she
Speaker 2: is I don't know this person. I don't know Candas
Speaker 2: Owens in real life. But if this is what we're seeing,
Speaker 2: negative tension is just as good as Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's so interesting that you say this because She's
Speaker 1: not someone that I would take at her word. I
Speaker 1: guess I'll put it that way, Like, I don't know
Speaker 1: how reliable of a narrator she is. However, when she
Speaker 1: says like, oh, overnight, I realized that feminists were the
Speaker 1: real enemy, and the people that I should be allying
Speaker 1: myself were people like mylo Ayanapolis, I don't think that
Speaker 1: she's outright lying, but I I think that what she's
Speaker 1: saying is probably a lot closer to what you've just said, Sam,
Speaker 1: that like what she realized was like, when I was
Speaker 1: just a feminist online, I didn't get a lot of attention.
Speaker 1: But when I started publicly beefing with these other feminists,
Speaker 1: I was getting a lot of attention. These these right
Speaker 1: wing extremist types like Miloganopolis, who had huge platforms, started
Speaker 1: paying me more attention and giving me more support, giving
Speaker 1: me more engagement. And like, I think, I think there's
Speaker 1: something to this idea that Like, I wouldn't necessarily say
Speaker 1: that she.
Speaker 3: Changed her ideological ideas.
Speaker 1: I think that what she realized was like, oh, if
Speaker 1: I align myself with people on the right, that comes
Speaker 1: with attention. Again, this is just my opinion. I don't
Speaker 1: know her, but that's my sense. I like, I don't
Speaker 1: think that she's outright misrepresenting this shift, but I think
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily about an ideology so much as it
Speaker 1: is like, oh, like public spats and rage bait and
Speaker 1: like spectacle gets me engagement and attention, and that can
Speaker 1: translate to dollars outright, I can play this game. That's
Speaker 1: that's my sense of what's going on here.
Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like she was finding a brand,
Speaker 2: and we like, she is a brand, whether or not
Speaker 2: we want to admit that's the case, but she is
Speaker 2: a brand, and she's starting to hone in on this brand,
Speaker 2: and she's going to go for what gives her the
Speaker 2: most uh success.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this was successful.
Speaker 1: Like once she starts doing this, you know, and she
Speaker 1: starts promoting right wing viewpoints on YouTube. She had a
Speaker 1: YouTube channel called red Pill Black, which, like I gotta say,
Speaker 1: is actually like a pretty good name. I credit where
Speaker 1: credit is due. It's like, I get I like that branding.
Speaker 1: She catches the attention of Charlie Kirk, who founded Turning
Speaker 1: Points USA, just like big right wing media entity.
Speaker 3: And he hires her.
Speaker 1: So at this point, Candice goes from like a little
Speaker 1: no name blogger blogging about lefty politics that nobody's ever
Speaker 1: heard of, to like making huge viral videos that are
Speaker 1: getting so much attention, where she's doing things like dismissing
Speaker 1: the twenty seventeen White Supremacists Unite the Right rally in
Speaker 1: Charlottesville that left Heather Higher dead. Alex Jones invites her
Speaker 1: to co host some of his Info Wars shows, and
Speaker 1: again like, keep in mind these I know they seem
Speaker 1: like fringe media entities, and in some ways they are,
Speaker 1: but they get so many viewers, like Alex Jones at
Speaker 1: his height was getting tons and tons and tons of eyeballs.
Speaker 1: She starts doing stints on Fox News, so like that's
Speaker 1: a little more mainstream than Info Wars, right, And in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one she joined The Daily Wire with a
Speaker 1: ton of fanfare, like this was a huge deal.
Speaker 3: She ends up moving to Nashville, and when she.
Speaker 1: Does that, the state even introduces House Joint Resolution three fifty,
Speaker 1: a resolution in the Tennessee government to congratulate Candae Owens,
Speaker 1: a relocate hating to Tennessee for work at the Daily Wire.
Speaker 1: That reads quote whereas miss Owens has earned the admiration
Speaker 1: and respect of millions of Americans through her activism and
Speaker 1: support of President Trump as a black woman, and her
Speaker 1: perceptive criticism of creeping socialism and leftist political tyranny.
Speaker 3: Imagine moving to Nashville, and.
Speaker 1: It's such a big deal that, like the government of
Speaker 1: Nashville makes it an official like proclamation in Tennessee government.
Speaker 2: And if she steps outside of downtown Nashville, she's gonna
Speaker 2: get threatened for sure. Oh I feel threatened outside. I
Speaker 2: feel threatened in a lot of places. But like, yeah, so,
Speaker 2: and as a person who was the only Asian person
Speaker 2: in the crowd, the tokenism is so loud.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that proclamation, like, oh, like we're proclaiming
Speaker 1: that she's great because she's a black woman who likes Trump.
Speaker 3: I mean, add to things like this is one of
Speaker 3: the reasons.
Speaker 1: Why I think a lot about Candace Owens is like
Speaker 1: a kind of seductive quality that can come with being
Speaker 1: a person of color who is being uplifted as like
Speaker 1: some special thing, right, some special one. And it's it's
Speaker 1: such a trap because I don't want to be anybody's token, right,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be anybody's like, oh, like, this
Speaker 1: is a black woman who's doing x y Z, but
Speaker 1: I understand the seductive lure of that, and so like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess I almost sort of see
Speaker 1: Candace Owens as like a fun house mirror version of myself,
Speaker 1: Like if I, like, if I were someone who was
Speaker 1: really moved or swayed by being uplifted because of these
Speaker 1: things that make me tokenizable. I can sort of see
Speaker 1: liking this, and so I sort of see a lot
Speaker 1: of like of my shadow self and Candice Owens.
Speaker 3: I guess I should say, does that make sense?
Speaker 2: No? Yes, No, I think I understand that because like
Speaker 2: my younger self, my younger self seeking desperately to be white,
Speaker 2: seeming to be accepted by white people. So when I
Speaker 2: in high school not understanding the depth and depravity of
Speaker 2: white supremacy and how dark it is, like sitting there arguing, no,
Speaker 2: not arguing, but agreeing with my and racist brother about
Speaker 2: this fact. Yes, affirmative action is so awful. I want
Speaker 2: to earn it. I don't want to be, you know,
Speaker 2: given special treatment because of my race. And that's not
Speaker 2: the case at all, that's not the conversation at all,
Speaker 2: But because of what I've been fed, and the minute
Speaker 2: I said that he's like, see, she knows she's Asian,
Speaker 2: Like he literally said that out loud, and being so
Speaker 2: proud of me for understanding white supremacy, like in like
Speaker 2: in that way, but wanting to like liking that moment.
Speaker 2: Now look back with Shane, But at that moment, I
Speaker 2: was like, yes, I'm one of you, Yes, exactly as you.
Speaker 1: It's so seductive and if you like, I was the
Speaker 1: exact same when I was younger, Like, and it's like
Speaker 1: nobody likes feeling excluded or like the other, or like
Speaker 1: they don't belong.
Speaker 3: And so in those glimmers where you where you do
Speaker 3: feel like.
Speaker 1: Someone is saying like, see, it feels good, And I
Speaker 1: think it's it's like doing the work of training yourself
Speaker 1: to really see those moments for what they are and
Speaker 1: not like being pulled into the good feelings of like
Speaker 1: well this I'm getting feedback from my brother that's making
Speaker 1: me feel accepted and that he sees me and whatever whatever.
Speaker 1: But like, you know, you really have to do the
Speaker 1: work to be like, well, is this actually what I
Speaker 1: want to be seen for?
Speaker 2: Like you know, right, I don't want to agree with you,
Speaker 2: now I understand what I'm agree with and this is
Speaker 2: completely wrong. I'm against humanity. What if Candice Owens is
Speaker 2: pulling the best grift of all time and just taking
Speaker 2: all the Conservative money, Like if that was the end
Speaker 2: story to this, I'm like, if anybody deserves the Republican
Speaker 2: Conservative money as a black woman, So I can't really
Speaker 2: I hear that right, like this is smart. I mean
Speaker 2: it's not smart. It's like it feels like a betrayal.
Speaker 2: But for her on her individual level coming in and
Speaker 2: being token to being all these multi million dollar shows.
Speaker 2: Because you know, we know that Alex Jones made a
Speaker 2: lot of money from his hatred. We know that, we've
Speaker 2: seen it, he talks about it, we know Charlie Kirk
Speaker 2: as well. Her coming in and taking their money is
Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, I don't hate it for you,
Speaker 2: like I hate what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I used to think, and again, this is
Speaker 1: my opinion. I don't know her like that or anything,
Speaker 1: but like I used to think, like, certainly she's playing
Speaker 1: these people.
Speaker 3: She doesn't believe this. Now I don't know.
Speaker 1: Now I think she's like a true believer. But like
Speaker 1: maybe I go back and forth and again it's one
Speaker 1: of those things that one of those reasons why I
Speaker 1: find her so deeply fascinating, right because like, like as
Speaker 1: a black woman, I am tempted to like project like, well,
Speaker 1: certainly this is some sort of a I mean, it
Speaker 1: is a.
Speaker 3: Grift, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: And it's like for sure a grift like she grifted,
Speaker 1: can't confirm, but like I it really made it really
Speaker 1: prompts me to look back at myself to be like, well,
Speaker 1: why am I like why like am I low key
Speaker 1: rooting for her?
Speaker 3: Like what is this?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Like you're the like you're not my favorite, but you're
Speaker 2: not the worst worst exactly to get out where you
Speaker 2: are in this in the spectrum. But you know, on
Speaker 2: top of all of that, as we were talking about
Speaker 2: in Nashville, being like if you go outside of the city,
Speaker 2: escape and no people don't know you, you're not going to
Speaker 2: get this love that you think you're getting from this
Speaker 2: very uh again white supremacist patriarch that you are representing
Speaker 2: and are trying to play for like all these things,
Speaker 2: eventually they're gonna turn on you.
Speaker 1: Well that actually happened in her story. So you know,
Speaker 1: when she's working at Daily Wire, you're thinking, like, you know,
Speaker 1: she's got this huge gig probably making a ton of money,
Speaker 1: should be smooth sailing, but there is a huge, messy
Speaker 1: public fallout just a few years later. So she's working
Speaker 1: at Daily Wire. Last year there was this public friction
Speaker 1: between Candace and Ben Shapiro, one of the founders of
Speaker 1: Daily Wire, the network that Candace had used to be on.
Speaker 1: Now it's not one hundred percent clear exactly what caused
Speaker 1: attention between the two, but at least publicly there it
Speaker 1: seemed to be some kind of a reaction to the
Speaker 1: situation in Gaza. Ben Shapiro is Jewish, and Owens has
Speaker 1: said a lot of anti Semitic stuff, Like even before
Speaker 1: October seventh, she was going hard, doing things like defending
Speaker 1: Kanye West, but things really seemed to kick into high
Speaker 1: gear with her anti semitism on October seventh. Now it
Speaker 1: is important to make a distinction here that she's not
Speaker 1: like criticizing the actions of the Israeli state.
Speaker 3: She is getting into stuff like blood libel.
Speaker 1: Conspira theories, which is this anti Semitic conspiracy theory that
Speaker 1: Jewish people drink blood for power, and like other deep
Speaker 1: deep conspiracy theories. Right, like she said that Judaism was
Speaker 1: a quote pedophile centric religion that believes in demons and
Speaker 1: child sacrifice, and that people are waking up to the
Speaker 1: fact that pedophiles are in power. So she is saying
Speaker 1: some like truly out of pocket, wild stuff, and then
Speaker 1: things start taking kind of a bent toward her employer.
Speaker 1: She wrote on Twitter quote, no one can serve two masters.
Speaker 3: You cannot serve both God.
Speaker 1: And money, to which Ben Shapiro Comma her boss, replies, Candace,
Speaker 1: if you feel that taking money from the Daily Wire
Speaker 1: somehow comes between you and God, by all means quit Now.
Speaker 3: I gotta say, like, I don't find myself.
Speaker 1: Agreeing with Candace Owens or Ben Shapiro much, but I
Speaker 1: kind of thought Ben Shapiro kind of has a point here,
Speaker 1: Like this is her boss and she's publicly getting into
Speaker 1: sebbats with him on Twitter.
Speaker 3: Not a good book.
Speaker 4: Could have maybe done that a little bit more privately, Yeah, like.
Speaker 3: Sit an email.
Speaker 1: But like that's the thing about Canvas is like Canus
Speaker 1: wouldn't be Candace if she didn't if she did if
Speaker 1: she did this privately, Cannus wouldn't be Candace if she
Speaker 1: avoided this. Like her career got a jumpstart from spectacle
Speaker 1: on Twitter, So like she that is something that is
Speaker 1: like her bread and butter is like spectacle on social media.
Speaker 1: So it gets absolutely messy as hell, and it's all public.
Speaker 1: Owens claimed that Ben Shapiro had quote been acting unprofessional
Speaker 1: and emotionally unhinged for weeks now and said that Shapiro
Speaker 1: crossed a certain line. When you come for scripture and
Speaker 1: read yourself into it, I will not tolerate it.
Speaker 3: She goes on Tucker.
Speaker 1: Carlson Show, saying that Ben Shapiro was attacking her using
Speaker 1: ad hominem attacks. She then tweets that she wants her
Speaker 1: and Ben Shapiro to sit down and have a discussion
Speaker 1: moderated by this podcaster, Patrick Bett Davide. Ben Shapiro was
Speaker 1: having none of this, and again I can't say that
Speaker 1: I blame him. Like challenging your boss to a debate,
Speaker 1: a public debate on Twitter, it's just like not a
Speaker 1: good look. So when she was like debate me, bro,
Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro tweeted, Candice, I can see why you'd want
Speaker 1: to hide behind a moderator, particularly one who said we
Speaker 1: should rename our company. Quote the Daily Jewish Wire just yesterday,
Speaker 1: no one on one Monday at five pm. We can
Speaker 1: sit down and have a healthy debate like adults and
Speaker 1: will live stream it on x and YouTube.
Speaker 3: Take it or leave it.
Speaker 1: So they're really going back and forth, and I gotta
Speaker 1: give a little side note here for what it's worth.
Speaker 1: This is just like my personal opinion as somebody who
Speaker 1: has been around the block and worked in the media
Speaker 1: for a really long time. The reason I am not
Speaker 1: saying that the actual root of their disagreement was Israel
Speaker 1: or Judaism like one hundred percent, is because I just
Speaker 1: smell some kind of a contractual dispute here. Something about
Speaker 1: the way that they are going back and forth reads
Speaker 1: to me like Owens maybe had like an inflexible, ironclad
Speaker 1: contract that maybe she felt like she could make more
Speaker 1: money on her own and that she had to get
Speaker 1: out of this contract or vice versa.
Speaker 3: Maybe Daily Wire wanted her out.
Speaker 1: Something about the intensity of the public escalation with her
Speaker 1: boss just suggests to me that something else might have
Speaker 1: been going on. Again, this is just my sense. I
Speaker 1: don't have any inside information. It just seems like a
Speaker 1: lot to be doing. It just seems like a lot
Speaker 1: to be doing. But again, this is Cannice Owens we're
Speaker 1: talking about the very definition of doing the most on
Speaker 1: social media.
Speaker 3: But that's just my sense.
Speaker 2: I feel like it's one again once like the fact
Speaker 2: that they work so hard on like the conservative right
Speaker 2: wing side that knowing that one person being Jewish and
Speaker 2: the other person being a black woman. I'm like, they're
Speaker 2: not on your side, Like no, they just are just
Speaker 2: like wanting you to find it out. This is what
Speaker 2: they want so that they can obtain more power. But
Speaker 2: you two, I mean, it's just it's just is it ironic,
Speaker 2: I don't know or is it just Sam?
Speaker 1: I was like watching this like you know, like like
Speaker 1: I was like let him fight, like I was my love,
Speaker 1: and every minute was like faving every tweet reading like
Speaker 1: you know how it used to be on Twitter you
Speaker 1: could like go to like show show more to see,
Speaker 1: like like to start from the beginning.
Speaker 3: I was eating it up.
Speaker 1: And again like obviously Kennis has hit on something because
Speaker 1: like these this public spectacle, these public spats, even with
Speaker 1: her employer.
Speaker 3: They do generate engagement.
Speaker 1: Like she's she's she's not new to this, She's true
Speaker 1: to this, Like she's been using this kind of thing
Speaker 1: to get negative attention to boost herself for a very
Speaker 1: long time, and she's very good at it.
Speaker 3: So the seems to be like.
Speaker 1: The red line here was when Rabbi Schmooley Botice criticized
Speaker 1: Owen's for her defenses of kind a west. Owens then
Speaker 1: like to tweet, asking the rabbi if he was quote
Speaker 1: drunk on Jewish blood again. A few days later, Daily
Speaker 1: Wire and Candace Owens officially ended her their relationship, with
Speaker 1: Owen's tweeting, the rumors are true. I am finally free.
Speaker 2: Just there's so many things that I like, there's so
Speaker 2: many things to this level of conversation that yes, it is.
Speaker 2: It's just like the song of Francesco Ramsey did with
Speaker 2: like that lepers or do you know like they didn't
Speaker 2: think that, you know? And I'm like yeah. But at
Speaker 2: the same time, with the way she ended, it does
Speaker 2: sound like it was a whole play to get out.
Speaker 3: I just I mean, like I don't know, but like.
Speaker 1: She had to, Like there is no way that Candace
Speaker 1: did not think that, like she was putting her job
Speaker 1: at risk, right, So I just do not buy that.
Speaker 1: She was like I'm gonna be I just these are
Speaker 1: my convictions and I can just say what I want
Speaker 1: and it's free speech and it'll be fine. There is
Speaker 1: no way, like I just if anybody listening has the
Speaker 1: real tea. I just can sense there's something else here
Speaker 1: and it just it just it gives contract dispute to me,
Speaker 1: That's all I'll say. So this is where the story
Speaker 1: gets interesting to me, because she kind of fell off
Speaker 1: of my radar after this.
Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, I guess she's out at Bailey Wire.
Speaker 1: Hadn't really heard much from her. I guess she's like
Speaker 1: doing her thing. And it wasn't until I was trying
Speaker 1: to make sense of the dispute between these two Hollywood
Speaker 1: A listers, Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, that she popped
Speaker 1: up on my radar again. So I gotta give a
Speaker 1: big PSA. This is not meant to be a definitive
Speaker 1: breakdown of what is happening with Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively,
Speaker 1: which probably could be like its own episode. It is
Speaker 1: not a situation that I have followed super closely, so
Speaker 1: I am like not the right person to dig in
Speaker 1: on all of that.
Speaker 3: I don't have any kind of like take or anything like.
Speaker 1: Like like it's just it's not it's not a situation
Speaker 1: that I am super read in on because it's a
Speaker 1: little bit like complicated and I can't quite follow it.
Speaker 1: But that dynamic where I'm like, oh, I don't really
Speaker 1: know what's going on, but I'm sort of like casually
Speaker 1: trying to find out. That is actually how Candice Owens
Speaker 1: got back on my radar. So do you do you
Speaker 1: all know what's happening between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni's
Speaker 1: is something that's like bet On Yell's radar.
Speaker 2: It's been against my will.
Speaker 3: YEA.
Speaker 5: Literally today I was like, thank god, I haven't heard
Speaker 5: anything about Blake Lively and Justin Baldonia.
Speaker 4: And then you see the outline, So.
Speaker 3: Here we go. Everything I've learned about it has been
Speaker 3: against my will.
Speaker 1: I'm like, why, it's like what, like it's just like
Speaker 1: not something I don't know, It's just like not.
Speaker 2: I mean in the end, like because you were trying
Speaker 2: to compare it to the Johnny dipp amber Herd case,
Speaker 2: which I'm like, yo, back off. There's so many things
Speaker 2: that the implication of that alone makes me think I
Speaker 2: don't want to take this seriously because it's not to
Speaker 2: that level. We have this conversation because like we spoke
Speaker 2: very quickly before it blew up to this, like the
Speaker 2: very beginning of the conflict, mainly talking about how domestic
Speaker 2: violence victims and survivors really were offended by the way
Speaker 2: that the movie, which is the center of this controversy
Speaker 2: was portrayed, and then the how the ad marketing went
Speaker 2: for and like made it all girly, these good times,
Speaker 2: all these things that they were, like this is really
Speaker 2: kind of offensive, Like this language of this entire language
Speaker 2: of sometimes it's very serious that people have taken very
Speaker 2: personally and have like a lot of familiarity with and
Speaker 2: trauma with. And then it felt like flat, especially like
Speaker 2: with how it is now, especially because it's no longer
Speaker 2: about the movie, no, but like's it was. We took
Speaker 2: a small take on that and why romanticizing domestic violence
Speaker 2: is such a such a problem in Hollywood and just
Speaker 2: in our environment in general. But like this was way
Speaker 2: before everything happened, and the back and forth and back
Speaker 2: and forth. I will say, there's a lot of disdain
Speaker 2: for Blake's lively on Ye yes again, I did not
Speaker 2: choose this.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's so funny that you say this. I
Speaker 1: have experienced the exact same thing.
Speaker 3: So so if.
Speaker 1: Folks don't know what we're talking about, if you aren't
Speaker 1: like Annie blissfully unaware of like what is going on,
Speaker 1: It's it's a situation. It's like a little bit complicated,
Speaker 1: and it's ongoing, but it's actually like a pretty interesting story,
Speaker 1: and it does include a lot of things that I
Speaker 1: am interested in, like how celebrities use.
Speaker 3: Social media, how easily social media.
Speaker 1: Platforms can be like weaponized for or against a specific person.
Speaker 1: Email correspondence where people make themselves look terrible in writing
Speaker 1: because they currently do not expect these emails to be
Speaker 1: like in a deposition or in the New York Times.
Speaker 3: That is my personal favorite.
Speaker 1: Thing nothing when whenever it's like, oh we have the emails,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna read every single one of them, Like,
Speaker 1: please continue to put your wrongdoings in emails and in
Speaker 1: writing so that I can read them later in a deposition.
Speaker 1: So I do think that folks should like if that
Speaker 1: seems like the kind of a situation that you are
Speaker 1: interested in, Like it is, it is a meaty situation,
Speaker 1: so like definitely listen to podcasts about it or whatever.
Speaker 1: But for our purposes, a quick and dirty. Summary of
Speaker 1: what's going on is that Blake Lively and Justin Buldoni
Speaker 1: were in a movie adaptation of the popular Colleen Hoover
Speaker 1: novel called It Starts with Us. In December, Lively filed
Speaker 1: a legal complaint against Bouldannie, accusing him of sexual harassment
Speaker 1: and starting a sneer campaign against her. Now he strongly
Speaker 1: denies that and has sued. In response, both camps are
Speaker 1: releasing information like text messages and emails and like videos
Speaker 1: and voicemails to make each other look bad. So the
Speaker 1: case has turned, I mean kind of similar to the
Speaker 1: Johnny Depp Amber Herd thing. It's one of those situations
Speaker 1: that has turned into like an ink block test that
Speaker 1: changes depending on what version of the story that you buy.
Speaker 1: Inion one, Blake Lively was being sexually harassed on set
Speaker 1: by this like fake feminist male ally.
Speaker 3: Who was actually an abuser.
Speaker 1: In version two, Blake Lively is like this egomaniac who
Speaker 1: is using her star power and like a list celebrity
Speaker 1: network like her husband Ryan Reynolds from those Deadpool movies,
Speaker 1: to control the narrative around her being a nightmare on
Speaker 1: set and steamrolling everybody.
Speaker 3: Else on this project.
Speaker 1: So Sam like you kind of similar to the Johnny
Speaker 1: Depp and Amber Heard thing.
Speaker 3: In some ways, I think, depending on.
Speaker 1: What silos of the Internet you are in, you might
Speaker 1: be be algorithmically being given the idea that the public
Speaker 1: sentiment leans one way or another, like on TikTok.
Speaker 3: For whatever reason, my.
Speaker 1: TikTok algorithm thinks I hate Blake Lively and that I
Speaker 1: want to see like lots of videos like pouring over
Speaker 1: every nuance in the ways in which she is.
Speaker 3: A fraud, which is not true.
Speaker 1: She's not someone who like I spend really any time
Speaker 1: at all thinking about. But it's interest that like the
Speaker 1: algorithm thinks, like, oh, this is somebody who hates Blake Lively.
Speaker 2: Right, I agree. For some reason, I am getting all
Speaker 2: of the tea on all the awful things that Blake
Speaker 2: Lively is and all the people who hate her and
Speaker 2: why they hate her, and I'm like, I have never once.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've ever seen a Blake Lively movie.
Speaker 2: I don't think I have.
Speaker 1: If I one of the Traveling Pants, no, okay, that's
Speaker 1: usually the one people know like that or I will
Speaker 1: say say whatever you want to about like Lively the
Speaker 1: movie A simple favor slaps.
Speaker 3: She's great in that.
Speaker 2: Did you get the tea on how much they hate
Speaker 2: each other?
Speaker 3: On that? Why?
Speaker 2: That's what on my fee do.
Speaker 1: I did say? I did see an interview where who
Speaker 1: is the hair coastar in that inn? A Kendrick right
Speaker 1: and A Kendrick were they asking her about Blake Lively.
Speaker 3: She does have a very weird response.
Speaker 2: They hate each other, and that's that's what I've understood.
Speaker 2: That's what they're telling me because they don't ever show
Speaker 2: up together on the red carpet. So when I say,
Speaker 2: my feed really feeds to the fact that I must
Speaker 2: hate Blake Lively when I don't know this person, And
Speaker 2: I'm like, I like, not that I know any celebrity
Speaker 2: like that, but I'm like, but I never at one
Speaker 2: point have I looked her up or like, she's not
Speaker 2: on my feet. I don't look around on my like searchus.
Speaker 2: I guess the one time it was for the It
Speaker 2: ends with us. Damn it. Every time I research something
Speaker 2: for the show, it messes me up. But anyway, yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, no, that is I'm I'm like, I guess
Speaker 2: we really don't trust Blake Lively. We being a TikTok yeah,
Speaker 2: my TikTok the.
Speaker 3: Same as you.
Speaker 1: Like, I was trying to get to the bottom of
Speaker 1: like what was going on with this this Justin and
Speaker 1: Blake thing. And one of my cousins, who I would
Speaker 1: like lovingly describe as a normy and that she's not
Speaker 1: like super online, She's not you know, deep in the
Speaker 1: depths of like extremism or anything like that, Like the
Speaker 1: way that I am my cousin is like, Oh, there's
Speaker 1: this black girl journalist who has really been following the
Speaker 1: story and breaking it down.
Speaker 3: We will tag you so you can figure out what's
Speaker 3: going on. And that journalist was Candace Owens.
Speaker 1: And I was like, what, like what, Like I could
Speaker 1: not believe that my cousins who were like not at
Speaker 1: all in like, they are not people who are like
Speaker 1: pouring over the minutia of what's happening on the Internet
Speaker 1: and extremism the way that I am, like, they're pretty
Speaker 1: offline whatever.
Speaker 3: Like I was like, how did.
Speaker 1: You even get Candace Owens on your radar to be
Speaker 1: like listening to her podcast or watching her YouTube?
Speaker 3: And the reason is because she has introduced herself to a.
Speaker 1: Brand new subset of listeners and audience by covering this
Speaker 1: Blake Lively thing, so her coverage very clearly takes an
Speaker 1: anti Blake stance, as The Cut put it in a
Speaker 1: piece called Candace Owens has gone mainstream quote. The right
Speaker 1: wing commentator's coverage of the Blake Lively Justin Boldoney case
Speaker 1: has reached millions of viewers. Owen's podcast was hours and
Speaker 1: hours of analysis of the case, deep dives into court,
Speaker 1: finally tabloid news stories, even Ryan Reynolds's recent appearance on
Speaker 1: Saturday Night Lives fiftieth anniversary special. She's really been able
Speaker 1: to go in and pinpoint discrepancies in some of the
Speaker 1: things Blake Lively I said, rather than having.
Speaker 3: Us go through it on our own.
Speaker 1: When listener says, though she recognizes that Owens seems to
Speaker 1: have a pro Bowl Donni bias, she doesn't care. Candace
Speaker 1: is urging us to look past the fact that this
Speaker 1: is not a feminist issue at all, that it's about
Speaker 1: getting justice for whoever is being wrong.
Speaker 3: She's uniting the left and the right. So, I mean,
Speaker 3: it's just like it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, it seems surprising that
Speaker 1: this like celebrity story would be the thing that would
Speaker 1: galvanize an audience of mostly women and introduce Candace Owen's
Speaker 1: and who she is and her ideologies and all of
Speaker 1: that to a new audience. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: like that's pretty much exactly what they do. That what
Speaker 1: they did at the Daily Wire, Like nobody was more
Speaker 1: obsessed with celebrity than people like Ben Shapiro.
Speaker 3: They loved like.
Speaker 1: Taking down woke Disney, Woke Star Wars, like you had
Speaker 1: had a big few with Meg thee Stallion Beyonce. Like
Speaker 1: just because it's negative doesn't mean it's not sandom. It's
Speaker 1: just like going in the other direction.
Speaker 2: Right, Actually, we knew we need to say he had
Speaker 2: a one sided being with him because they did not.
Speaker 2: Like it just makes me laugh, you know, the other
Speaker 2: part of this was as much as my algorithm wants
Speaker 2: to show me all the anti Lively stuff as well
Speaker 2: as all of the controversy, because yes, I would get
Speaker 2: updates about the SNL thing about how everybody snubbed Brian Reynolds.
Speaker 2: It's like did they okay? But like, interestingly I did
Speaker 2: get content not from Candis Owans but other creators reminding
Speaker 2: me and everybody listening that Candis Owans is a right
Speaker 2: winged fanatic and that they need to be wary of
Speaker 2: the information she's giving about this specific case.
Speaker 1: Yes, so I think that's like why I wanted to
Speaker 1: make this episode, just as a general reminder of who
Speaker 1: Candice Owens is, and like we all love celebrity gossip.
Speaker 1: I know I do, but like, let's just remember who
Speaker 1: she is and the source, and like she might want
Speaker 1: to rebrand herself, but let's just keep it at the front,
Speaker 1: forefront of our minds who she is and what she's about,
Speaker 1: And like, she really has exploded in popularity from this coverage.
Speaker 1: You know, it's been attracting a lot more viewers beyond
Speaker 1: her normal right wing extremist space. Like you were saying, Sam,
Speaker 1: it's like normans like my cousins, my cousins, who might
Speaker 1: not have any idea who she is. They just think
Speaker 1: she's an entertainment journalist. All of this has meant explosive
Speaker 1: growth and engagement for Owen's Here's how The Cut put
Speaker 1: it in that piece. Since Owen started covering the Lively
Speaker 1: Baldoni case, her YouTube channel has exploded in popularity, allowing
Speaker 1: her to attract a much larger fan base than the
Speaker 1: audience of hardcore conservatives, she is a mass over the years,
Speaker 1: each episode about Lively and Baldani racks up at least
Speaker 1: one point five million views. In the past month alone,
Speaker 1: Owens has a mass more than four hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: thousand new subscribers on YouTube, and her total video views
Speaker 1: have quadrupled since this time last year, according to data
Speaker 1: from the analytics platform social Blade. Over the past three months,
Speaker 1: her audience on YouTube has also started skewing sixty five
Speaker 1: percent female, according to data provided by a spokesperson, a
Speaker 1: market shift from her past fan base. So this has
Speaker 1: all been great news for Owens and where her audience
Speaker 1: used to be like men, you know, like probably like
Speaker 1: your brother right, like like right wing men. By covering
Speaker 1: this story, she's really interacting a lot of women.
Speaker 5: Oh my stomach kind of hurts. It is really interesting
Speaker 5: that this came in with gamer Gate as well, because,
Speaker 5: like we were saying, Gamergate was such a mess, and
Speaker 5: there were so many men who would be like, see
Speaker 5: this woman agrees with me, and I hate it because
Speaker 5: sometimes I'm like why, I just want to have a
Speaker 5: conversation about why I don't like this game, and now
Speaker 5: you've made it into this woman agrees with me, and
Speaker 5: now you're using it to attract more women to be like, see,
Speaker 5: if we're on the we are correct and you are wrong.
Speaker 4: And so when you see things like this.
Speaker 5: Where she started out with mostly men and then she's
Speaker 5: attracting like all of these women, I feel like it's
Speaker 5: worth asking why do you think this took off for her?
Speaker 1: This story so one, I will say that like Camus
Speaker 1: actually is pretty interesting to listen to, Like I don't
Speaker 1: agree with what she's saying, but she does, Like even
Speaker 1: when she was a progressive blogger, she does have like
Speaker 1: a point of view and a clear voice, and I
Speaker 1: think that really comes through in her coverage.
Speaker 3: Of Blake Lively.
Speaker 1: You know, she has this way of speaking that signals
Speaker 1: to you like, oh, this person is really breaking it down.
Speaker 1: It's the same reason why things on TikTok, things like
Speaker 1: story time or like I'm spilling the tea really holds
Speaker 1: people's attention.
Speaker 3: I think that Candice really does know how to do that. One.
Speaker 1: I think the second kind of gets at what you
Speaker 1: were saying Annie, that we just love misogyny, and I
Speaker 1: think if that massogyny can be laced with a threat
Speaker 1: of conspiracy, it's even better, Right, like social media platforms
Speaker 1: are always going to amplify things like misogyny or massogynore
Speaker 1: racism or transphobia. I think all of that is just
Speaker 1: baked into what it means to show up on social media.
Speaker 3: And I think Owen's really, in.
Speaker 1: A savvy way, takes that a step further by breaking
Speaker 1: all of this down, like she's explaining a conspiracy, right,
Speaker 1: So it's not so she's not just saying like, here's
Speaker 1: my take on Blake Lively, or here's what's going on
Speaker 1: with the Blake Lively case, or you know, here's why
Speaker 1: even like here's why I don't like Blake Lively. She
Speaker 1: has this tinge of like she uncovering this dark truth
Speaker 1: about this successful woman to take her down.
Speaker 3: Like, of course that's going to take off. People love that.
Speaker 1: So the fact that she's not just giving information about
Speaker 1: Blake Lively, she's doing it in this way that's like,
Speaker 1: let's go back through fifteen years of footage of her
Speaker 1: speaking and dive through the minutia of everything that she's
Speaker 1: said on camera to highlight the discrepancies, to show what
Speaker 1: a dark, twisted person she is.
Speaker 3: Like, of course people are gonna love that.
Speaker 1: And I think that One of the reasons why people
Speaker 1: like conspiracy theories is that it really does allow for
Speaker 1: like fantasy and world building to become part of this coverage,
Speaker 1: right Like Canvas's coverage of Blake Lively is wild because
Speaker 1: she is a truly wild person. And so if you're
Speaker 1: someone who was just like wants to get the brain
Speaker 1: rush of like going down a deep rabbit hole, whether
Speaker 1: or not it's true or whether or not it's like
Speaker 1: made up, that's.
Speaker 3: Gonna be enticing for you.
Speaker 1: You know, as Owens herself puts it, she does not
Speaker 1: follow a quote traditional style of reporting.
Speaker 3: That's putting it pretty light lightly.
Speaker 1: She will amplify rumors, right like she once even read
Speaker 1: a letter that she said was from Ryan Reynolds' acting
Speaker 1: coach from when he was twelve years old, and that
Speaker 1: acting coach allegedly said Ryan Reynolds was obnoxious as a
Speaker 1: twelve year old. Like there are side characters and stuff
Speaker 1: like she really fleshes out this world of what she's saying.
Speaker 3: Is it real, is it accurate? Who cares?
Speaker 1: Of course people are coming to hear that tea on
Speaker 1: a story they're invested in, right.
Speaker 2: I feel like though, like this is definitely in her
Speaker 2: alley in her Willhouse, in that this fees into the
Speaker 2: Hollywood demon's kind of trope as well as like her
Speaker 2: response to the Me Too movement, I know, like she
Speaker 2: was definitely anti feminist in that movement as well, Like
Speaker 2: this kind of all fees into that perfectly for her.
Speaker 1: Yes, So I think that's another reason why this has
Speaker 1: taken off, because I think that, like, there is something
Speaker 1: inherently inviting about the power of like taking a contrarian
Speaker 1: stance on something like after Me Too, lots of women
Speaker 1: got engagement by taking a contrarian stance. Ironically, Blake Lively
Speaker 1: praised both Woody Island and Harvey Weinstein. That last one
Speaker 1: is going to be interesting to note for later. So
Speaker 1: I think there is this attitude where like going against convention.
Speaker 1: You know, if if there's a convention that says we
Speaker 1: automatically got to support the woman in any situation, it
Speaker 1: probably makes people who are turning to Owen's as coverage
Speaker 1: and her breakdowns feel like the free thinkers who are
Speaker 1: going against the grain and like willing to take an
Speaker 1: unpopular opinion which feels good, Like it feels good to
Speaker 1: think of yourself in that way, which then obviously connects
Speaker 1: to some of her more like odious stances about trans
Speaker 1: people and women and Jewish people, like if you can
Speaker 1: get people introduced to the idea that it's like good
Speaker 1: to take an unpopular opinion when you're talking about a
Speaker 1: celebrity that people don't like, imagine how then you can
Speaker 1: walk them down to be like it isn't And also
Speaker 1: don't you not like trans people? And also don't you
Speaker 1: think women should not have jobs? And also don't you
Speaker 1: not like Jewish people? Like it's like kind of all
Speaker 1: coming from the same place.
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so she's very engaging and she it's sort
Speaker 5: of like, you know, here's some celebrity gossip. Let me
Speaker 5: give you this conspiracy theory, and also kind of this
Speaker 5: hate on the side. Right, But it's been very successful.
Speaker 5: But has has the new audience changed her stances at all?
Speaker 3: That's a great question.
Speaker 1: According to Owen's she has not really changed her views
Speaker 1: despite her rebrand. She says, in terms of my perspective,
Speaker 1: I haven't changed anything. I've been anti me too since
Speaker 1: long before it was cool. When it comes to the
Speaker 1: which like, oh, what as like feminist media makers? Do
Speaker 1: you think like I just I'm so curious about that
Speaker 1: take of like, first of all, just the assumption that
Speaker 1: like it's cool to be anti me too right now.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I just have a lot of questions.
Speaker 2: This is definitely the whole like red pill level of
Speaker 2: women trying to be the I hate this storter, but
Speaker 2: like the pick me like you were, like I it's
Speaker 2: now cool because the boys like me like it. It
Speaker 2: doesn't want it sounds like most women who have been
Speaker 2: through these processes or her survivors would never say like
Speaker 2: the level people. I'm not even just like survivors people
Speaker 2: with conscious like like that in general, that's not a
Speaker 2: that's not a statement you want. That's not a winning statement.
Speaker 1: It's not that's a good way to put it. It's
Speaker 1: not a winning statement. And when it comes to the
Speaker 1: success of the content that she's made around Blake Lively,
Speaker 1: Canda says that she thinks her new fans, especially the
Speaker 1: ones coming from the left, have quote just kind of
Speaker 1: gotten wise to the fact that maybe women lie just
Speaker 1: like men, and you can do you want to know
Speaker 1: what her next big shoe is going to be like
Speaker 1: after she moves on from Blake Lively, She's already signaled
Speaker 1: to what it is?
Speaker 2: Oh really, because we're still in the middle of this.
Speaker 2: The lawsuit hasn't been settled, but okay, what is.
Speaker 1: But she's already looking, I mean like it's not gonna
Speaker 1: last forever. She's already had a sense of like where
Speaker 1: she's going next, her next bigo. She was going to
Speaker 1: be championing Harvey Weinstein, the disgraced filmmaker that really did
Speaker 1: kickstart the Me Too movement. She's been interviewing him by
Speaker 1: phone since twenty twenty two. Here's how the Hollywood Reporter
Speaker 1: explains it. Candas's takeaway is that while Harvey Weinstein is
Speaker 1: an a moral man, he's also a victim of the
Speaker 1: justice system. Owens, a long time and persistent critic of
Speaker 1: the Me Too movement, of which Harvey, of which the
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein saga served as the watershed, noted that quote,
Speaker 1: I've always had faith in our court system, and now
Speaker 1: that's beginning to change. Now I'm wondering if our courtrooms
Speaker 1: have been politicized. I love that it's Harvey Weinstein being convicted.
Speaker 1: That She's like, are the it's not on the money.
Speaker 2: I no, I'm sure there's some of them serial killers
Speaker 2: that she should represent as much like this is okay
Speaker 2: to be fair, she has has she has her fingers
Speaker 2: on the pulse in that knowing this is gonna drive
Speaker 2: up attention, like she is gonna get the publicity that
Speaker 2: she wants with that, Like how bigger could you go
Speaker 2: outside of being like I'm gonna go dig up Hitler
Speaker 2: and interview him and tell him I miss him like that.
Speaker 3: That's yeah, No, I mean she she agrees with you.
Speaker 1: She said that she's putting out a series called Harvey Speaks,
Speaker 1: and when asked about it, she said, quote.
Speaker 3: It will explode the world. That's a direct quote.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, she's a businesswoman for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we all have that to look forward to. I
Speaker 3: mean again, like.
Speaker 1: He's sad, like I cannot deny that this is smart,
Speaker 1: Like I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't agree with it.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's good. I don't think it's good
Speaker 1: for the world. But like, I think she has her
Speaker 1: finger on the pulse of what is actually going to
Speaker 1: be projects to put out that will capture people's attention
Speaker 1: for better or for worse.
Speaker 3: And I think she's really got something. She's like cracked
Speaker 3: into something.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for better or worse. Indeed, she has.
Speaker 5: And you know, every time we talk to you, Bridget,
Speaker 5: we always talk about how the algorithms and so many
Speaker 5: of our social media pushes this content up and how
Speaker 5: we engage in it.
Speaker 4: So she's figured it out. She's figured that out.
Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right, And I think, like that's
Speaker 1: the So what of this story is that? You know,
Speaker 1: Candice has so many other things going on, Like she's
Speaker 1: pivoting into other kinds of pro she's branding out into
Speaker 1: doing a book club for paying subscribers and a fitness program,
Speaker 1: and I think that I do I believe her when
Speaker 1: she says that she's not like rebranding. I think rather
Speaker 1: she is trying to rebrand her followers. These new followers,
Speaker 1: many of whom are just like women who are interested
Speaker 1: in this scandal. I believe that the point is for
Speaker 1: them to be walked down a pipeline that includes her
Speaker 1: other extremist attitudes, really using this Blake Lively celebrity scandal
Speaker 1: as the hook. And I think because celebrity stories, especially
Speaker 1: ones that involve women, are so often just like considered fluff.
Speaker 3: So a lot of people who care.
Speaker 1: About like extremist content or ideology might not be paying
Speaker 1: that much attention to hell, these stories that you might
Speaker 1: see on US Weekly are tapping into those ideologies and
Speaker 1: un leading those ideologies on a brand new audience. And
Speaker 1: so I think that's especially concerning when you're talking about
Speaker 1: things like celebrity, because you know, when I'm reading celebrity
Speaker 1: scandals or like reading US Weekly, I might not be
Speaker 1: primed to have my like BS detector on and up
Speaker 1: because it just is, like you think of it as
Speaker 1: a less charge space.
Speaker 3: And so I think that it really can be.
Speaker 1: More dangerous because it lends itself to people being more
Speaker 1: susceptible to ideological content they might not be expecting without
Speaker 1: even realizing it.
Speaker 3: And like, I think it's very easy for Candace Owens to.
Speaker 1: Go from like saying Blake Lively is lying to like
Speaker 1: women lie to women can't be trusted to, like women
Speaker 1: should not have jobs, which I'm not just like pulling
Speaker 1: that out of nowhere. That is a stance that Candace
Speaker 1: Owens has explicitly advocated for that women should not have employment,
Speaker 1: they cannot be trusted with work, despite herself obviously being
Speaker 1: a working woman. So like, basically you just can't trust
Speaker 1: her she's not someone that you can trust. Don't let
Speaker 1: her rebrand as a celebrity journalist. Fool you if somebody
Speaker 1: tags you in a video of hers, to.
Speaker 3: Be like, oh, she's really breaking it down.
Speaker 1: Just remember that she is trying to soften what it
Speaker 1: is that she advocates for and believes in, and like.
Speaker 3: We shouldn't let her do that.
Speaker 1: We should really remember who who she is and what
Speaker 1: she's about, because she's made it very clear, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, she's definitely on the same lines of what
Speaker 2: we've seen as a new generation talking about young men
Speaker 2: on podcasts and how they've been able to influence young men,
Speaker 2: like this is coming in as influencing young women. I mean,
Speaker 2: just today, I'm seeing a lot of content about how
Speaker 2: young the younger generations are talking are being red pilled,
Speaker 2: as they would say, which is fitting here, and things
Speaker 2: like the soft life content being a beginning for a
Speaker 2: lot of young women not realizing that getting that kind
Speaker 2: of brand. We've talked about that with like self care,
Speaker 2: we've talked about that with yoga and the clean, clean
Speaker 2: lifestyle type of thing. How that easily becomes a pipeline
Speaker 2: for the conservative right wing community. And this is kind
Speaker 2: of that big stoy, except that we see her branding
Speaker 2: and we know who she is. But if you don't
Speaker 2: know from the jump her stance, this is definitely a
Speaker 2: worrisome tactic because we know things like true crime and
Speaker 2: celebrity gossip, like it's geared towards young women, it's geared
Speaker 2: towards women in general, and they also spend a lot
Speaker 2: of money and they spend a lot of time in it,
Speaker 2: investigating and taking part of it. So it's really worriesomeing
Speaker 2: like it is comical. As we were talking at the beginning,
Speaker 2: like what is this to very concerning and understanding that
Speaker 2: when we let this stuff go, like you were saying,
Speaker 2: like this is fluff content, but in actuality is feeding
Speaker 2: into a conservative ideal that becomes mainstream and it's usually
Speaker 2: really dangerous.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when people are like, oh, I just want to
Speaker 1: listen to my true crime podcast, I don't want to
Speaker 1: get political, or I just want to read about celebrities,
Speaker 1: I don't want to get political, I hate to break
Speaker 1: it to you. All of that stuff is political. All
Speaker 1: that is all political, and like it is, it can
Speaker 1: be harnessed to shift attitudes of people who are being like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is not political into more extremest ways of thinking.
Speaker 1: And so if you are a savvy consumer of media,
Speaker 1: or a savvy consumer of anything, whether it's true crime
Speaker 1: content or celebrity content, or yoga or wellness content or
Speaker 1: any of that, we've really got to be primed and
Speaker 1: thinking about the ways as content can be so easily
Speaker 1: weaponized to spread a.
Speaker 3: Certain ideology that we might not want to get mixed
Speaker 3: up in.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 5: Oh every time you come here, Bridget, I'm like, we
Speaker 5: have fifteen million other.
Speaker 4: Topics we need to talk about.
Speaker 5: But thank you, thank you as always for coming on
Speaker 5: and taking the time.
Speaker 4: We love to have you. Where can the good listeners
Speaker 4: find you?
Speaker 1: Well, you can listen to my podcast on iHeartRadio called
Speaker 1: their Artal Girls.
Speaker 3: On the internet.
Speaker 1: You can check me out on Instagram at Bridget Marie
Speaker 1: in DC and uh yeah, we'd love to hang out there.
Speaker 4: Yes, and go do that listeners. If you haven't already
Speaker 4: you can find us. You can email us at Hello
Speaker 4: Stuff iever told you dot com. You can find us
Speaker 4: on Blue Sky at momsuff podcast, or in Instagram and
Speaker 4: TikTok at stuff we Never told you for Also on YouTube,
Speaker 4: we have a tea public store, and we have a
Speaker 4: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
Speaker 4: as always to our super producer Costini or Executiveducer and
Speaker 4: a contributor Joey.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Thanks to you for listening. Stuff one never told me
Speaker 4: his production by heart Radio.
Speaker 5: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check
Speaker 5: out the heart Radio app Apple Podcast wherever you listen
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