WEBVTT - Turning Writers into Publishers 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:22.516 Pushkin. In two thousand and eight, the writer Kevin Kelly 0:00:22.596 --> 0:00:26.796 published this essay about a big, exciting, ultimately kind of 0:00:26.836 --> 0:00:29.876 simple idea. If you want to make a living doing 0:00:29.876 --> 0:00:33.316 something creative, you don't need millions of fans or even 0:00:33.596 --> 0:00:37.276 hundreds of thousands of fans. You just need a thousand 0:00:37.516 --> 0:00:41.756 true fans. The math works, Kelly argued, because of the Internet. 0:00:42.156 --> 0:00:45.476 The Internet gives everybody everywhere the ability to connect with 0:00:45.516 --> 0:00:48.436 everybody else, and it means that people like writers and 0:00:48.556 --> 0:00:52.156 musicians no longer have to go through intermediaries like publishers 0:00:52.156 --> 0:00:55.316 and music labels and retail stores that traditionally wound up 0:00:55.356 --> 0:00:58.156 capturing most of the revenue from the sales of creative work. 0:00:59.116 --> 0:01:02.156 If you can find your thousand true fans, Kelly argued, 0:01:02.436 --> 0:01:04.236 and if you can figure out a way to sell 0:01:04.356 --> 0:01:07.436 your work directly to those fans, you could make a 0:01:07.476 --> 0:01:14.636 living doing the creative thing you love to do. I'm 0:01:14.716 --> 0:01:17.236 Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show 0:01:17.276 --> 0:01:19.756 where entrepreneurs and engineers talk about how they're going to 0:01:19.876 --> 0:01:22.916 change the world once they solve a few problems. My 0:01:22.956 --> 0:01:26.316 guest today is Chris Best. Chris is the co founder 0:01:26.316 --> 0:01:30.076 and CEO of Substack. Substack is a company that helps 0:01:30.076 --> 0:01:34.476 writers send subscription based email newsletters, which, as Chris says, 0:01:34.636 --> 0:01:37.156 is a very simple idea built on top of some 0:01:37.356 --> 0:01:41.956 very grandiose beliefs, beliefs about culture and ideas and commerce. 0:01:42.676 --> 0:01:45.276 More to the point, substack is one of the best 0:01:45.356 --> 0:01:48.716 tests I've seen of the theory of a thousand true fans. 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:53.956 The idea for substack came to Chris and his co 0:01:54.036 --> 0:01:57.556 founder Hamish back in twenty seventeen. At the time, Chris 0:01:57.556 --> 0:02:00.596 had just left Kick, the messaging platform that he'd co founded, 0:02:00.956 --> 0:02:03.396 and there were lots of things he thought had gone 0:02:03.436 --> 0:02:06.516 wrong with media and the Internet. He'd always been an 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:08.876 avid reader and a believer in the power of writing, 0:02:09.196 --> 0:02:11.396 and he wanted to share his ideas with the world. 0:02:11.756 --> 0:02:14.116 And so naturally I was like, well, I should write. 0:02:14.196 --> 0:02:17.316 How hard could that be. It's just typing. I already 0:02:17.316 --> 0:02:19.916 know how to type. And I started writing what I 0:02:19.956 --> 0:02:22.236 thought was going to be an essay or a blog 0:02:22.276 --> 0:02:27.036 post that was kind of just detailing my frustrations with 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:32.116 the state of media and the Internet. It was sort 0:02:32.116 --> 0:02:34.796 of this like a complaint or a screed of some 0:02:34.876 --> 0:02:37.756 sort that was just like the Internet came along made 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:40.996 it global an incident free to distribute writing, which is great, 0:02:41.196 --> 0:02:44.076 but at the same time, these platforms killed a lot 0:02:44.116 --> 0:02:46.436 of the business models that used to support great writing. 0:02:46.436 --> 0:02:50.436 Craigslis killed the classifieds, Facebook, Google took over the advertising industry, 0:02:50.916 --> 0:02:53.796 and now we're all sort of stuck clawing for attention 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:57.436 on these various feeds waw, waw, waw, complaining, complaine. And 0:02:57.556 --> 0:02:59.756 I sent this piece of writing to my friend Hamish, 0:02:59.916 --> 0:03:03.556 who's actually a writer, and he very gently told me 0:03:04.116 --> 0:03:06.836 you're not the original snowflake you think you are in 0:03:06.916 --> 0:03:09.676 twenty seventeen writing a thing it says, wow, be Facebook 0:03:09.756 --> 0:03:12.276 is bad for us, Like, you know this, this is 0:03:13.116 --> 0:03:15.596 not exactly fertile ground. You didn't get the scoop on 0:03:15.716 --> 0:03:17.836 that one. Yeah, I didn't get the scoop on that one. 0:03:18.156 --> 0:03:19.956 He's like, I'll tell you that all of my friends 0:03:19.956 --> 0:03:21.556 who are writers are not going to be shocked to 0:03:21.636 --> 0:03:24.356 hear that there's been some disruption to the business model 0:03:24.436 --> 0:03:28.796 that supports their work. And basically like, look, you maybe 0:03:28.876 --> 0:03:31.836 write about all of this, but so what And you 0:03:31.916 --> 0:03:35.396 sort of asked the question He said, the more interesting 0:03:35.556 --> 0:03:37.156 thing would be, like, what do you do about it? 0:03:37.476 --> 0:03:40.916 It's easy to complain, it's easy to poke holes. But 0:03:41.076 --> 0:03:44.076 let's assume that all of this is true. How could 0:03:44.116 --> 0:03:46.396 you even how could things be different? How could things 0:03:46.516 --> 0:03:50.796 be better? And we started sort of arguing about that 0:03:51.036 --> 0:03:53.396 and batting around a bunch of things, and we were 0:03:53.436 --> 0:03:58.076 both subscribers to Ben Thompson's Stratechery at the time, and 0:03:58.116 --> 0:04:00.276 we were like, you know that dude's making which is 0:04:00.356 --> 0:04:02.916 just to be clear, that's a paid newsletter that lots 0:04:02.956 --> 0:04:05.476 of people in the in the tech industry subscribe to. 0:04:05.756 --> 0:04:07.916 It's an email letter that he's exactly. It's a paid 0:04:07.916 --> 0:04:10.916 it's a paid email newsletter. We're seeing other people doing 0:04:10.996 --> 0:04:14.076 these things where they're like, you know, you can write something, 0:04:14.156 --> 0:04:15.836 you can charge for it. We were just fascinated by 0:04:15.876 --> 0:04:18.956 this thing, and we ended up sort of hitting on 0:04:19.076 --> 0:04:22.076 the idea of substack. Is this very simple thing that 0:04:22.756 --> 0:04:26.156 does kind of two things. On the one hand, it's 0:04:26.236 --> 0:04:31.516 this very grandiose idea that's aimed at this broad societal 0:04:31.596 --> 0:04:35.836 problem of like, hey, this the total domination of all 0:04:35.876 --> 0:04:38.396 of our attention by this business model of these engagement 0:04:38.476 --> 0:04:41.316 maximizing platforms is bad, and we need to like create 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:43.996 a real alternative for that with a different business model, 0:04:44.076 --> 0:04:46.876 and you know, it's like an alternate universe with different 0:04:46.956 --> 0:04:49.236 laws of physics for how you spend your time and attention. 0:04:49.956 --> 0:04:52.396 Very high faluting. But on the other hand, it's like 0:04:52.716 --> 0:04:54.476 what if you could send people email and charge the 0:04:54.556 --> 0:04:59.436 money for it? Right, right, And it's pretty low faluting. 0:04:59.596 --> 0:05:02.876 It's like, you know, it's a very specific thing that 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:06.516 some people newsletter. It's an email newsletter. Yeah, people say, 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:11.316 what a newsletter. It's like actively unsexy technology, yes, right, right, 0:05:12.356 --> 0:05:14.956 So I mean I'm curious. So you know, obviously substack 0:05:15.076 --> 0:05:17.476 is a thing. Now I have to say, like, I 0:05:18.516 --> 0:05:22.596 don't think of it as a substitute for you know, Twitter. 0:05:22.796 --> 0:05:28.036 Twitter is my social media of choice. Unfortunately, I think 0:05:28.076 --> 0:05:30.756 of it as more of a close substitute to something 0:05:30.876 --> 0:05:33.236 like The Atlantic or The New York Times, who in 0:05:33.316 --> 0:05:38.396 fact are now clearly building their own email newsletter businesses. Partly, 0:05:38.436 --> 0:05:42.156 I presume in response to your success at substack, right, 0:05:42.356 --> 0:05:44.676 have you found in whatever data you have that substack 0:05:44.876 --> 0:05:50.316 is a substitute for social media. I think it's at 0:05:50.396 --> 0:05:53.036 least a substit I mean it's at least a substitute 0:05:53.156 --> 0:05:57.796 in that as readers, as consumers, we end up having 0:05:57.876 --> 0:06:00.676 kind of like a finite amount of time. Yeah, so 0:06:00.916 --> 0:06:03.636 every minute somebody is reading substack is a minute they're 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:05.556 not looking at social media but could make. And that 0:06:05.636 --> 0:06:07.716 sounds kind of ridiculous when you sort of produced its 0:06:07.716 --> 0:06:10.116 like everything is in competition with everything else. But I 0:06:10.116 --> 0:06:12.596 actually think that's sort of like the fundamental shift that 0:06:12.636 --> 0:06:15.356 we've undergone, Like the whole dawn of social media was 0:06:15.396 --> 0:06:17.276 because we used to live in an age where it 0:06:17.396 --> 0:06:19.996 was possible to get bored. Yeah, and you would have 0:06:20.116 --> 0:06:23.076 time in your life where you're like, gee, I'm bored. 0:06:23.356 --> 0:06:26.116 I wish I had something to spend my attention on 0:06:26.556 --> 0:06:28.436 and if somebody could come along and give me something 0:06:28.516 --> 0:06:31.036 for free to do, that would be a great deal. 0:06:31.796 --> 0:06:34.196 And we've just come to the end of that age there. 0:06:34.476 --> 0:06:37.236 There just isn't every chunk of your attention that you 0:06:37.276 --> 0:06:39.636 ever want to spend on anything has been taken up. 0:06:39.676 --> 0:06:43.436 And in fact, there's increasingly loud clamoring and your phone 0:06:44.156 --> 0:06:48.116 badly absorb every second of your brain life. Still though, 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:52.916 I mean, it's possible that sub stack, that the attention 0:06:52.996 --> 0:06:55.436 sub stack has taken and I'm happy for it. I 0:06:55.476 --> 0:06:57.596 think it's great that writers can make money, and I'm 0:06:57.596 --> 0:06:59.716 excited to talk about that. But it's possible that that 0:06:59.836 --> 0:07:03.996 has come mostly from not from social media, but rather 0:07:04.156 --> 0:07:07.876 from unsocial media. I mean, you literally have people leaving 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:11.516 traditional media places where they are writing columns and starting 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:13.956 to write substacks, right, Like, that's the it's a very 0:07:14.116 --> 0:07:17.436 natural kind of adjacency. No, you know, to be honest, 0:07:17.476 --> 0:07:20.236 it's almost certainly both. You know, people that had people 0:07:20.276 --> 0:07:23.836 that were working as professional writers, right, a lot of 0:07:23.916 --> 0:07:25.756 them can go to substack and get a great deal. 0:07:25.956 --> 0:07:28.396 That's awesome, we love it. But there's an even bigger 0:07:28.516 --> 0:07:32.116 cohort of people who were not professional writers before and 0:07:32.236 --> 0:07:37.036 who but for substack, might not have been writing. Either. 0:07:37.156 --> 0:07:39.236 Young people who didn't see a path and sort of 0:07:39.356 --> 0:07:41.516 you know, might have gone to you know, had something 0:07:41.556 --> 0:07:44.396 to give the world as a writer, and without this 0:07:44.516 --> 0:07:46.556 model might have had to go to law school like 0:07:46.596 --> 0:07:49.476 their parents wanted them to. Or people that work in industry, 0:07:49.596 --> 0:07:53.116 or people that have some adjacent thing that you know, 0:07:53.916 --> 0:07:57.116 making building an audience and sometimes on substack and sometimes 0:07:57.196 --> 0:08:00.796 building a fortune, and who but for substack, would otherwise 0:08:00.876 --> 0:08:02.596 not be writing. It's not like they would, you know, 0:08:02.716 --> 0:08:04.796 have a job at the Atlantic or something and who 0:08:04.956 --> 0:08:06.836 who I have never heard of, who most people have 0:08:06.956 --> 0:08:10.156 never heard of, right, which is cool and interesting. I mean, 0:08:10.196 --> 0:08:12.956 it's kind of like a smaller YouTube in that way, 0:08:13.116 --> 0:08:17.356 right where there's just this vast array of niches that 0:08:17.516 --> 0:08:21.036 people can fill. And so I mean I am curious 0:08:21.316 --> 0:08:25.556 to that point to get a sense of basically the 0:08:25.956 --> 0:08:30.436 distribution of I don't mean the literal email distribution, but 0:08:30.516 --> 0:08:34.316 the sort of distribution curve of substacks of the newsletters 0:08:34.356 --> 0:08:37.836 people write like, how big a substack? How big a substack? 0:08:38.036 --> 0:08:39.676 What have we shared? I think we've shared that we're 0:08:39.756 --> 0:08:43.636 over a million paying subscribers, hundreds of thousand of people 0:08:43.636 --> 0:08:47.356 who started a substack. I forget what our latest So sorry, 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:51.476 a million paying subscribers and the what is the well, 0:08:51.516 --> 0:08:53.516 I guess for that when the average subscription is like 0:08:54.396 --> 0:08:58.316 sixty bucks a year ish, yeah, eighty somewhere in there. Okay, 0:08:58.596 --> 0:09:03.116 So is that something like eighty million dollars a year 0:09:03.196 --> 0:09:05.756 that people are paying not to you, obviously, but to 0:09:05.796 --> 0:09:07.836 the writers, of which you get ten percent? Is that 0:09:07.916 --> 0:09:10.236 the ballpark way to think about it? Yeah, I mean, 0:09:10.276 --> 0:09:12.196 it's it's more than that, but it's that's you know, 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:15.356 that's the right, if I if I ballparked it at 0:09:15.356 --> 0:09:17.916 one hundred million for the writers, ten of which goes 0:09:17.956 --> 0:09:20.556 to you, would I be not wildly wrong. You're in 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:23.596 the right order, mind, dude. Okay. Um. And then so 0:09:23.796 --> 0:09:26.996 within that, like again to your point of like, well, 0:09:27.036 --> 0:09:29.956 there's a few famous people, and you know, I'm curious 0:09:30.076 --> 0:09:33.996 to know how how the how the distribution works there, 0:09:34.356 --> 0:09:36.636 you know, how much are the top people making? And 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:42.436 then like what's the median? Yeah, so the distribution is 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:45.956 super sort of power laws you might expect. So I 0:09:45.996 --> 0:09:49.876 think the top ten people make something like twenty or 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:52.676 twenty five million bucks a year between them. Wow, good 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:54.836 for them, they should only live them be Well, yeah, 0:09:55.316 --> 0:09:58.476 people were making millions of dollars a year. Individuals are 0:09:58.516 --> 0:10:00.716 making millions of dollars a year. Individuals are making millions 0:10:00.716 --> 0:10:03.276 of dollars a year, but a very small number. It's 0:10:03.316 --> 0:10:06.836 like the Taylor Swift of substack and there's you know, 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:09.596 there's they're actually quite a healthy number people who are 0:10:09.636 --> 0:10:13.276 making you know, real money. If you think of real 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:15.436 money is like multiple times which you'd make as a 0:10:15.996 --> 0:10:18.716 writer at a publication. I definitely think of that as 0:10:18.796 --> 0:10:22.876 real money. But Okay, so your question is like what's 0:10:22.876 --> 0:10:26.836 the distribution and the like, tell me about the median person, Like, yes, 0:10:26.916 --> 0:10:29.596 there are some superstars, and I am happy for those superstars, 0:10:30.036 --> 0:10:33.756 but what's like a normal Like how many people are 0:10:33.836 --> 0:10:36.996 making fifty thousand dollars year? Like fifty thousand dollars years? 0:10:37.116 --> 0:10:39.716 Like up perfectly, you know that's a that's a living. 0:10:39.836 --> 0:10:41.836 And if you can write your own email newsletter and 0:10:41.916 --> 0:10:43.916 make fifty thousand dollars a year, that's cool. But how 0:10:43.996 --> 0:10:46.916 many of those people are there? I mean it's like hundreds, 0:10:46.956 --> 0:10:51.236 I think? Okay, okay, I mean if you're charging five 0:10:51.276 --> 0:10:54.636 bucks a month and you can get a thousand, a 0:10:54.716 --> 0:10:57.036 couple thousand people to pay you five bucks a month, like, 0:10:57.276 --> 0:10:59.996 that's a living, and like a couple thousand people isn't 0:11:00.036 --> 0:11:02.876 that many? Right? So? Like, how does that work? Are 0:11:02.916 --> 0:11:05.796 there examples of that? Are there? Sort of things you've 0:11:05.836 --> 0:11:08.076 found that people have made that work? Are there particularly 0:11:08.116 --> 0:11:13.156 interesting niches will have filled? That math is very important 0:11:13.196 --> 0:11:17.196 to why substack works. The fact that a relatively small 0:11:17.316 --> 0:11:20.236 number of people can chip in five bucks a month 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:22.596 and start to be meaningful. And it's interesting because if 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:24.516 you can get to a thousand, there's usually not a 0:11:24.596 --> 0:11:27.076 reason you couldn't get to two thousand or five thousand 0:11:27.156 --> 0:11:29.836 or ten thousand over time, and then that's why you 0:11:29.876 --> 0:11:31.436 get this sort of power law thing where you have 0:11:31.716 --> 0:11:36.316 this upside. But there's lots of things about what it 0:11:36.476 --> 0:11:38.076 takes to get there. The thing I think is most 0:11:38.116 --> 0:11:41.316 interesting about it, though, is how different the kinds of 0:11:41.476 --> 0:11:44.516 things you want to do to get there are from 0:11:44.756 --> 0:11:46.356 the things that would that you would do if you 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:50.116 wanted to kind of like maximize your audience to get 0:11:50.276 --> 0:11:53.796 ad impressions right all of a sudden, Your incentives if 0:11:53.836 --> 0:11:55.436 you want to if you're trying to get your thousand 0:11:55.476 --> 0:11:59.956 true fans, your incentive is to create something that a 0:12:00.156 --> 0:12:04.756 thousand people deeply value and fall in love with and 0:12:04.876 --> 0:12:06.636 want to pay you for and want to keep paying 0:12:06.676 --> 0:12:08.876 you for. Right you want to earn and keep the 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:12.756 trust of a thousand people making something they deeply value. 0:12:13.476 --> 0:12:15.716 And what that means is that there's if there's something 0:12:15.796 --> 0:12:18.876 out there that's like that that a thousand people would 0:12:18.996 --> 0:12:22.196 deeply value, but you couldn't necessarily get a million people 0:12:22.236 --> 0:12:25.836 to click on it's very very valuable on substack, and 0:12:25.916 --> 0:12:28.036 so there's a whole class of very valuable stuff that 0:12:28.196 --> 0:12:31.636 otherwise might not get created that can now get created. 0:12:31.836 --> 0:12:33.796 And so, I mean the obvious ones that come to 0:12:33.916 --> 0:12:36.156 mind are sort of business related, and there have been 0:12:36.276 --> 0:12:39.196 you know, industry newsletters have existed for a long time 0:12:39.276 --> 0:12:41.476 for this reason, right, There are lots of industry newsletters 0:12:41.516 --> 0:12:44.436 that are a thousand dollars per subscription because you know 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:46.236 your work is paying for it. I mean that's one. 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:49.276 Are there kind of less obvious ones, you know, ones 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:53.356 that are more oh less work related? Say, And that 0:12:53.516 --> 0:12:56.236 was one of our earliest questions, and we sort of 0:12:56.276 --> 0:12:58.436 we wondered this. We're like, well, okay, people if they 0:12:58.476 --> 0:13:01.076 can if they can say that it's for their job, 0:13:01.196 --> 0:13:02.556 or they can put it on a corporate credit card, 0:13:02.556 --> 0:13:04.436 they'll pay for it. But will they really pay for 0:13:05.236 --> 0:13:09.356 something else? But pretty quickly we had people doing kind 0:13:09.356 --> 0:13:14.436 of like literary comedy and culture writing and politics and 0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:19.476 the breadth of topics that it turns out that you 0:13:19.596 --> 0:13:25.196 can make on substack is kind of ridiculous. There's somebody 0:13:25.276 --> 0:13:27.796 writing reviews of canned fish. I don't know if he's 0:13:27.796 --> 0:13:29.276 making a ton of money, but it's like that's the 0:13:29.356 --> 0:13:31.996 sort of level of meeting to say, I mean, sure, 0:13:32.036 --> 0:13:34.716 it's the internet, Right, so every niche you can imagine, 0:13:34.796 --> 0:13:36.796 and then a ton more that you can't imagine are 0:13:36.836 --> 0:13:39.876 going to exist. The interesting question to me is what 0:13:40.036 --> 0:13:42.116 can you get a thousand people to pay five bucks 0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:44.236 a month for? And and maybe more to the point, 0:13:44.356 --> 0:13:46.956 like what have you learned about how to do that? 0:13:47.036 --> 0:13:51.716 Because I feel like that trick is actually generalizable beyond substack, Right, 0:13:51.756 --> 0:13:55.556 that's the basic, you know, minimum viable product. Find your 0:13:55.796 --> 0:13:59.356 core customers, make them love you, iterate like, I want 0:13:59.396 --> 0:14:00.716 to figure out how to do that better on the 0:14:00.836 --> 0:14:04.196 podcast that I make. Right, it's clearly a more mass model, 0:14:04.636 --> 0:14:07.236 but still the idea of like making a thing a 0:14:07.316 --> 0:14:11.036 few people really love, I think is is really compelling. 0:14:11.196 --> 0:14:13.676 And so what have you learned about how to do 0:14:13.796 --> 0:14:18.316 that specifically? Yeah, so topic can be almost anything. The 0:14:18.476 --> 0:14:20.916 things that really matter are you want to have a 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:25.436 distinct perspective. Exactly what that means depends on what it is, 0:14:25.916 --> 0:14:28.116 but you want it to be either a distinct voice 0:14:28.236 --> 0:14:32.396 or distinct worldview, or some distinct expertise or distinct sensibility, 0:14:32.916 --> 0:14:35.556 something where the thing that the people are paying for 0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:38.916 is not the content. Nobody has a problem that nobody 0:14:38.996 --> 0:14:40.996 comes to substack and says I wish I could get 0:14:41.036 --> 0:14:42.676 more email. I wish I had more things to me. 0:14:43.076 --> 0:14:46.276 Nobody has that problem, right. The thing that you pay 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:51.036 for is I need this person's take or this person's thought, 0:14:51.196 --> 0:14:55.716 or this person's recommendation, and I want them to curate 0:14:55.836 --> 0:14:59.236 a slice of my intellectual life or my attention for me. 0:14:59.676 --> 0:15:02.796 I want to delegate some of my worldview building to 0:15:03.036 --> 0:15:06.796 this person who I've built up this trust with over time. 0:15:07.476 --> 0:15:10.236 And in order to get that to worth paying money for, 0:15:10.876 --> 0:15:14.916 you want that to be distinct enough that you're not 0:15:15.476 --> 0:15:17.476 you know, you're not giving them something that they could 0:15:17.516 --> 0:15:20.076 get in a hundred different places. And you do have 0:15:20.196 --> 0:15:24.916 to kind of think about that integrity right being there 0:15:24.916 --> 0:15:27.516 if you're curating a slice of their attention, being judicious 0:15:27.516 --> 0:15:29.556 about what you're asking them to spend that attention. For 0:15:29.956 --> 0:15:32.356 somebody gives you permission to send them emails or gives 0:15:32.356 --> 0:15:35.516 you adds you to their podcast player, it's not only 0:15:35.596 --> 0:15:37.396 should you send them good stuff, but you kind of 0:15:37.436 --> 0:15:39.396 want to not send them things that are not worth 0:15:39.476 --> 0:15:42.756 their time or are not interesting. You mentioned you called 0:15:42.796 --> 0:15:46.676 it integrity, but the idea of respecting people's time their inbox, 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:51.716 and it reminded me of the fact that not only 0:15:51.956 --> 0:15:56.356 is substack subscription based, people pay, you know, to get 0:15:56.436 --> 0:16:00.316 a lot of substecks. It's pretty anti AD, right, like, 0:16:00.716 --> 0:16:02.796 if you have a substeck, are you even allowed to 0:16:02.876 --> 0:16:06.836 put ads in your newsletter? We definitely frown on it. 0:16:06.956 --> 0:16:08.956 And this is an interesting point where we are very 0:16:09.116 --> 0:16:13.196 anti AD, but we're also very pro freedom. Basically, like, 0:16:13.556 --> 0:16:15.716 it's your editorial content. You're allowed to put what you want. 0:16:15.956 --> 0:16:18.876 So we've fallen short of saying we're going to police 0:16:18.916 --> 0:16:21.396 what you put in your newsletter, provided you're not literally 0:16:21.476 --> 0:16:23.436 spamming people, which we take a very dim view of. 0:16:24.516 --> 0:16:26.956 But we don't build any AD technology. We don't we're 0:16:26.996 --> 0:16:29.996 not sort of encouraging people to sort of have a 0:16:30.116 --> 0:16:32.916 hybrid model in general, even though that seems like it 0:16:32.956 --> 0:16:35.076 ought to be appealing. We think that focusing on the 0:16:35.156 --> 0:16:38.156 other thing actually maximizes the benefits of that thousand true 0:16:38.196 --> 0:16:41.596 fans logic, Tell me more, Tell me more about that? 0:16:41.836 --> 0:16:44.116 Is that you don't sound on the fence about it. 0:16:44.236 --> 0:16:45.996 Has the company been on the fence about it? Could 0:16:45.996 --> 0:16:49.356 you imagine becoming more proad. It's something we used to 0:16:49.436 --> 0:16:52.436 get a lot from writers and the kind of the 0:16:52.516 --> 0:16:55.756 logic is like, hey, subscriptions are money. Advertising is money. 0:16:56.036 --> 0:16:58.836 One money plus two money is better than just one money. 0:16:59.636 --> 0:17:02.156 Like it's like, wouldn't I make more money? I think 0:17:02.236 --> 0:17:06.276 for in the writing world, people have seen enough success 0:17:06.396 --> 0:17:10.556 on substack that it's people are starting to get that 0:17:10.676 --> 0:17:13.876 the this model is working. And there's there's people who 0:17:13.916 --> 0:17:16.236 are in that category of people who are making millions 0:17:16.276 --> 0:17:18.196 of dollars a year on substack, who I personally at 0:17:18.236 --> 0:17:20.316 the start had to convince to turn on payments. And 0:17:20.356 --> 0:17:21.876 I'm like, no, I'm not gonna I'm gonna go do 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:24.316 some sponsorship thing or I'm just gonna grow it and 0:17:24.316 --> 0:17:25.796 I'm gonna blow blow. I don't think I can really 0:17:25.836 --> 0:17:27.836 make any money, and then I'm gonna just try it. 0:17:28.156 --> 0:17:31.676 You know, you have whatever The New Yorker, the Washington 0:17:31.756 --> 0:17:35.836 Post very very excellent publications that I pay for with 0:17:35.956 --> 0:17:38.676 my own money, and I don't resent them running ads 0:17:38.716 --> 0:17:42.876 as well. Yeah, I can. I can see the argument 0:17:42.956 --> 0:17:44.636 for that, And I think people can make the argument 0:17:44.716 --> 0:17:46.716 for podcasts. You know, I personally, every time I listen 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:49.356 to a podcast and there's a break, that's like, now 0:17:49.476 --> 0:17:51.916 let me tell you about something else. I'm like, okay, 0:17:51.956 --> 0:17:54.276 they're like coming right at me right now, you're coming 0:17:54.356 --> 0:17:56.676 right at I'm not gonna and listen, I don't begrudge it, 0:17:56.716 --> 0:18:01.156 but I'm not going to say that I love it. Now, 0:18:01.276 --> 0:18:04.116 let me tell you about something else. We'll be back 0:18:04.116 --> 0:18:06.676 in a minute to talk about bundling, unbundling and a 0:18:06.796 --> 0:18:17.516 problem substack has not yet solved. Now back to the show. 0:18:18.556 --> 0:18:20.996 So the first part of my conversation with Chris was 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:24.996 largely about that thousand true fans idea. The next part 0:18:25.036 --> 0:18:27.556 of the conversation is about another famous tech saying, this 0:18:27.676 --> 0:18:30.356 one is like kind of half joke, half idea, and 0:18:30.436 --> 0:18:32.676 it comes from Jim Barksdale, who is a big tech 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:35.316 guy back in the nineties. The key line is this, 0:18:36.076 --> 0:18:38.516 there are only two ways to make money in business. 0:18:38.916 --> 0:18:41.996 One is to bundle, the other is to unbundle. Like 0:18:42.116 --> 0:18:43.356 what do you make of that quote? What do I 0:18:43.396 --> 0:18:45.836 make of that quote? I buy it, I think, and 0:18:46.036 --> 0:18:48.436 I agree with you that so far subject has been 0:18:48.956 --> 0:18:52.396 this big unbundling energy. Right. The fact that as an 0:18:52.476 --> 0:18:56.276 individual writer you can go and start your own thing 0:18:56.396 --> 0:18:58.236 and make it on your own and get the upside 0:18:58.236 --> 0:19:00.476 of what you're doing and sometimes make you ten times 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:02.636 as much money as you've ever made before, and have 0:19:02.716 --> 0:19:05.716 a business and all this stuff. That's wonderful. It's a 0:19:05.756 --> 0:19:08.756 good thing. I actually think that there's a lot more 0:19:08.916 --> 0:19:12.036 energy left in that thing. Um. I think people people 0:19:12.076 --> 0:19:14.076 sometimes they're like, well, what's going to happen when people 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:16.796 are getting their eight substack subscription and they're really annoyed 0:19:16.836 --> 0:19:18.956 that they have to have so many different substack subscriptions. 0:19:19.316 --> 0:19:21.476 And I'm like, you know what, I like, bring on 0:19:21.636 --> 0:19:23.276 that problem. I would love to live in the world 0:19:23.316 --> 0:19:26.196 where that's your problem. I mean, obviously people that have 0:19:26.516 --> 0:19:28.556 in particular would love to live in the world where 0:19:28.596 --> 0:19:32.356 that's the problem. Of course, and there's you know, there 0:19:32.396 --> 0:19:34.036 are some people who who have that today, there's some 0:19:34.076 --> 0:19:35.836 people that are you know, subscribed to a whole bunch 0:19:35.836 --> 0:19:39.596 of things, but far and away, I think there's a 0:19:39.636 --> 0:19:43.436 ton of energy left in this sort of unbundling phase 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:45.196 of like, I'm a writer, I have something to say, 0:19:45.356 --> 0:19:47.316 and I like, I want it to be my thing. 0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:53.196 I do think there's an interesting effect where bundle economics 0:19:53.236 --> 0:19:57.116 are real, and if we are successful at the grand 0:19:57.316 --> 0:20:00.476 unbundling that we are in the middle of doing, at 0:20:00.596 --> 0:20:05.596 some point there's this economic potential energy that for unlocking 0:20:05.756 --> 0:20:09.596 the surplus of bundle economics for writers and readers, And 0:20:09.676 --> 0:20:11.396 there's a bunch of ways you can imagine that happening. 0:20:11.476 --> 0:20:13.396 Like one thing that's happening already is that substacks are 0:20:13.436 --> 0:20:16.676 turning into companies and institutions, right, people are starting as 0:20:16.716 --> 0:20:19.316 one thing and then building a newsroom or building a company. 0:20:19.476 --> 0:20:20.916 And the other thing that would be, like the obvious 0:20:20.956 --> 0:20:22.356 thing would be like, well, what if you just had 0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:24.716 like a Netflix style thing, or like this is what 0:20:24.876 --> 0:20:26.596 medium did. It's like, why don't you just have one 0:20:27.036 --> 0:20:30.396 a substack subscription and then everything like you know, there's 0:20:30.396 --> 0:20:32.756 some magic algorithm that dolls out like who gets the 0:20:32.796 --> 0:20:36.636 money based on what? And the problem with that is 0:20:36.756 --> 0:20:40.796 that it although it unlocks the bundle economics, it kills 0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:44.356 the fundamental magic of what's good about substack, which is 0:20:44.436 --> 0:20:48.996 the direct intentional relationship between the reader and the writer. Right, Like, 0:20:49.076 --> 0:20:51.956 the whole deal is I'd choose what to spend. I 0:20:52.076 --> 0:20:56.116 don't know exactly what the right solution to this is yet, 0:20:56.596 --> 0:20:59.756 but my strong intuition is that the right answer is 0:20:59.836 --> 0:21:03.236 that you do, in fact want a bundle or bundles 0:21:03.596 --> 0:21:06.156 but that it needs to happen bottom up rather than 0:21:06.236 --> 0:21:08.996 top down. I think that, you know, as with anything, 0:21:09.196 --> 0:21:11.316 the hard part is making it simple. This is one 0:21:11.356 --> 0:21:14.716 of the fun things about building products, building good products, 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:21.996 is you like sweat and curse and wring your hands 0:21:22.036 --> 0:21:23.956 and pull your hair out for a long time trying 0:21:23.956 --> 0:21:26.316