1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:22,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In two thousand and eight, the writer Kevin Kelly 2 00:00:22,596 --> 00:00:26,796 Speaker 1: published this essay about a big, exciting, ultimately kind of 3 00:00:26,836 --> 00:00:29,876 Speaker 1: simple idea. If you want to make a living doing 4 00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: something creative, you don't need millions of fans or even 5 00:00:33,596 --> 00:00:37,276 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of fans. You just need a thousand 6 00:00:37,516 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 1: true fans. The math works, Kelly argued, because of the Internet. 7 00:00:42,156 --> 00:00:45,476 Speaker 1: The Internet gives everybody everywhere the ability to connect with 8 00:00:45,516 --> 00:00:48,436 Speaker 1: everybody else, and it means that people like writers and 9 00:00:48,556 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 1: musicians no longer have to go through intermediaries like publishers 10 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:55,316 Speaker 1: and music labels and retail stores that traditionally wound up 11 00:00:55,356 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: capturing most of the revenue from the sales of creative work. 12 00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:02,156 Speaker 1: If you can find your thousand true fans, Kelly argued, 13 00:01:02,436 --> 00:01:04,236 Speaker 1: and if you can figure out a way to sell 14 00:01:04,356 --> 00:01:07,436 Speaker 1: your work directly to those fans, you could make a 15 00:01:07,476 --> 00:01:14,636 Speaker 1: living doing the creative thing you love to do. I'm 16 00:01:14,716 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the show 17 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:19,756 Speaker 1: where entrepreneurs and engineers talk about how they're going to 18 00:01:19,876 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 1: change the world once they solve a few problems. My 19 00:01:22,956 --> 00:01:26,316 Speaker 1: guest today is Chris Best. Chris is the co founder 20 00:01:26,316 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: and CEO of Substack. Substack is a company that helps 21 00:01:30,076 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 1: writers send subscription based email newsletters, which, as Chris says, 22 00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:37,156 Speaker 1: is a very simple idea built on top of some 23 00:01:37,356 --> 00:01:41,956 Speaker 1: very grandiose beliefs, beliefs about culture and ideas and commerce. 24 00:01:42,676 --> 00:01:45,276 Speaker 1: More to the point, substack is one of the best 25 00:01:45,356 --> 00:01:48,716 Speaker 1: tests I've seen of the theory of a thousand true fans. 26 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:53,956 Speaker 1: The idea for substack came to Chris and his co 27 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:57,556 Speaker 1: founder Hamish back in twenty seventeen. At the time, Chris 28 00:01:57,556 --> 00:02:00,596 Speaker 1: had just left Kick, the messaging platform that he'd co founded, 29 00:02:00,956 --> 00:02:03,396 Speaker 1: and there were lots of things he thought had gone 30 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:06,516 Speaker 1: wrong with media and the Internet. He'd always been an 31 00:02:06,516 --> 00:02:08,876 Speaker 1: avid reader and a believer in the power of writing, 32 00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:11,396 Speaker 1: and he wanted to share his ideas with the world. 33 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:14,116 Speaker 1: And so naturally I was like, well, I should write. 34 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 1: How hard could that be. It's just typing. I already 35 00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 1: know how to type. And I started writing what I 36 00:02:19,956 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: thought was going to be an essay or a blog 37 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:27,036 Speaker 1: post that was kind of just detailing my frustrations with 38 00:02:27,116 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 1: the state of media and the Internet. It was sort 39 00:02:32,116 --> 00:02:34,796 Speaker 1: of this like a complaint or a screed of some 40 00:02:34,876 --> 00:02:37,756 Speaker 1: sort that was just like the Internet came along made 41 00:02:37,756 --> 00:02:40,996 Speaker 1: it global an incident free to distribute writing, which is great, 42 00:02:41,196 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 1: but at the same time, these platforms killed a lot 43 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:46,436 Speaker 1: of the business models that used to support great writing. 44 00:02:46,436 --> 00:02:50,436 Speaker 1: Craigslis killed the classifieds, Facebook, Google took over the advertising industry, 45 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:53,796 Speaker 1: and now we're all sort of stuck clawing for attention 46 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:57,436 Speaker 1: on these various feeds waw, waw, waw, complaining, complaine. And 47 00:02:57,556 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 1: I sent this piece of writing to my friend Hamish, 48 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:03,556 Speaker 1: who's actually a writer, and he very gently told me 49 00:03:04,116 --> 00:03:06,836 Speaker 1: you're not the original snowflake you think you are in 50 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen writing a thing it says, wow, be Facebook 51 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: is bad for us, Like, you know this, this is 52 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:15,596 Speaker 1: not exactly fertile ground. You didn't get the scoop on 53 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 1: that one. Yeah, I didn't get the scoop on that one. 54 00:03:18,156 --> 00:03:19,956 Speaker 1: He's like, I'll tell you that all of my friends 55 00:03:19,956 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 1: who are writers are not going to be shocked to 56 00:03:21,636 --> 00:03:24,356 Speaker 1: hear that there's been some disruption to the business model 57 00:03:24,436 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 1: that supports their work. And basically like, look, you maybe 58 00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:31,836 Speaker 1: write about all of this, but so what And you 59 00:03:31,916 --> 00:03:35,396 Speaker 1: sort of asked the question He said, the more interesting 60 00:03:35,556 --> 00:03:37,156 Speaker 1: thing would be, like, what do you do about it? 61 00:03:37,476 --> 00:03:40,916 Speaker 1: It's easy to complain, it's easy to poke holes. But 62 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:44,076 Speaker 1: let's assume that all of this is true. How could 63 00:03:44,116 --> 00:03:46,396 Speaker 1: you even how could things be different? How could things 64 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:50,796 Speaker 1: be better? And we started sort of arguing about that 65 00:03:51,036 --> 00:03:53,396 Speaker 1: and batting around a bunch of things, and we were 66 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:58,076 Speaker 1: both subscribers to Ben Thompson's Stratechery at the time, and 67 00:03:58,116 --> 00:04:00,276 Speaker 1: we were like, you know that dude's making which is 68 00:04:00,356 --> 00:04:02,916 Speaker 1: just to be clear, that's a paid newsletter that lots 69 00:04:02,956 --> 00:04:05,476 Speaker 1: of people in the in the tech industry subscribe to. 70 00:04:05,756 --> 00:04:07,916 Speaker 1: It's an email letter that he's exactly. It's a paid 71 00:04:07,916 --> 00:04:10,916 Speaker 1: it's a paid email newsletter. We're seeing other people doing 72 00:04:10,996 --> 00:04:14,076 Speaker 1: these things where they're like, you know, you can write something, 73 00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:15,836 Speaker 1: you can charge for it. We were just fascinated by 74 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:18,956 Speaker 1: this thing, and we ended up sort of hitting on 75 00:04:19,076 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: the idea of substack. Is this very simple thing that 76 00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:26,156 Speaker 1: does kind of two things. On the one hand, it's 77 00:04:26,236 --> 00:04:31,516 Speaker 1: this very grandiose idea that's aimed at this broad societal 78 00:04:31,596 --> 00:04:35,836 Speaker 1: problem of like, hey, this the total domination of all 79 00:04:35,876 --> 00:04:38,396 Speaker 1: of our attention by this business model of these engagement 80 00:04:38,476 --> 00:04:41,316 Speaker 1: maximizing platforms is bad, and we need to like create 81 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 1: a real alternative for that with a different business model, 82 00:04:44,076 --> 00:04:46,876 Speaker 1: and you know, it's like an alternate universe with different 83 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:49,236 Speaker 1: laws of physics for how you spend your time and attention. 84 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 1: Very high faluting. But on the other hand, it's like 85 00:04:52,716 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 1: what if you could send people email and charge the 86 00:04:54,556 --> 00:04:59,436 Speaker 1: money for it? Right, right, And it's pretty low faluting. 87 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's a very specific thing that 88 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:06,516 Speaker 1: some people newsletter. It's an email newsletter. Yeah, people say, 89 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:11,316 Speaker 1: what a newsletter. It's like actively unsexy technology, yes, right, right, 90 00:05:12,356 --> 00:05:14,956 Speaker 1: So I mean I'm curious. So you know, obviously substack 91 00:05:15,076 --> 00:05:17,476 Speaker 1: is a thing. Now I have to say, like, I 92 00:05:18,516 --> 00:05:22,596 Speaker 1: don't think of it as a substitute for you know, Twitter. 93 00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:28,036 Speaker 1: Twitter is my social media of choice. Unfortunately, I think 94 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:30,756 Speaker 1: of it as more of a close substitute to something 95 00:05:30,876 --> 00:05:33,236 Speaker 1: like The Atlantic or The New York Times, who in 96 00:05:33,316 --> 00:05:38,396 Speaker 1: fact are now clearly building their own email newsletter businesses. Partly, 97 00:05:38,436 --> 00:05:42,156 Speaker 1: I presume in response to your success at substack, right, 98 00:05:42,356 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 1: have you found in whatever data you have that substack 99 00:05:44,876 --> 00:05:50,316 Speaker 1: is a substitute for social media. I think it's at 100 00:05:50,396 --> 00:05:53,036 Speaker 1: least a substit I mean it's at least a substitute 101 00:05:53,156 --> 00:05:57,796 Speaker 1: in that as readers, as consumers, we end up having 102 00:05:57,876 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: kind of like a finite amount of time. Yeah, so 103 00:06:00,916 --> 00:06:03,636 Speaker 1: every minute somebody is reading substack is a minute they're 104 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:05,556 Speaker 1: not looking at social media but could make. And that 105 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 1: sounds kind of ridiculous when you sort of produced its 106 00:06:07,716 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 1: like everything is in competition with everything else. But I 107 00:06:10,116 --> 00:06:12,596 Speaker 1: actually think that's sort of like the fundamental shift that 108 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 1: we've undergone, Like the whole dawn of social media was 109 00:06:15,396 --> 00:06:17,276 Speaker 1: because we used to live in an age where it 110 00:06:17,396 --> 00:06:19,996 Speaker 1: was possible to get bored. Yeah, and you would have 111 00:06:20,116 --> 00:06:23,076 Speaker 1: time in your life where you're like, gee, I'm bored. 112 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:26,116 Speaker 1: I wish I had something to spend my attention on 113 00:06:26,556 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 1: and if somebody could come along and give me something 114 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:31,036 Speaker 1: for free to do, that would be a great deal. 115 00:06:31,796 --> 00:06:34,196 Speaker 1: And we've just come to the end of that age there. 116 00:06:34,476 --> 00:06:37,236 Speaker 1: There just isn't every chunk of your attention that you 117 00:06:37,276 --> 00:06:39,636 Speaker 1: ever want to spend on anything has been taken up. 118 00:06:39,676 --> 00:06:43,436 Speaker 1: And in fact, there's increasingly loud clamoring and your phone 119 00:06:44,156 --> 00:06:48,116 Speaker 1: badly absorb every second of your brain life. Still though, 120 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:52,916 Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible that sub stack, that the attention 121 00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:55,436 Speaker 1: sub stack has taken and I'm happy for it. I 122 00:06:55,476 --> 00:06:57,596 Speaker 1: think it's great that writers can make money, and I'm 123 00:06:57,596 --> 00:06:59,716 Speaker 1: excited to talk about that. But it's possible that that 124 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:03,996 Speaker 1: has come mostly from not from social media, but rather 125 00:07:04,156 --> 00:07:07,876 Speaker 1: from unsocial media. I mean, you literally have people leaving 126 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:11,516 Speaker 1: traditional media places where they are writing columns and starting 127 00:07:11,556 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 1: to write substacks, right, Like, that's the it's a very 128 00:07:14,116 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 1: natural kind of adjacency. No, you know, to be honest, 129 00:07:17,476 --> 00:07:20,236 Speaker 1: it's almost certainly both. You know, people that had people 130 00:07:20,276 --> 00:07:23,836 Speaker 1: that were working as professional writers, right, a lot of 131 00:07:23,916 --> 00:07:25,756 Speaker 1: them can go to substack and get a great deal. 132 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 1: That's awesome, we love it. But there's an even bigger 133 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:32,116 Speaker 1: cohort of people who were not professional writers before and 134 00:07:32,236 --> 00:07:37,036 Speaker 1: who but for substack, might not have been writing. Either. 135 00:07:37,156 --> 00:07:39,236 Speaker 1: Young people who didn't see a path and sort of 136 00:07:39,356 --> 00:07:41,516 Speaker 1: you know, might have gone to you know, had something 137 00:07:41,556 --> 00:07:44,396 Speaker 1: to give the world as a writer, and without this 138 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:46,556 Speaker 1: model might have had to go to law school like 139 00:07:46,596 --> 00:07:49,476 Speaker 1: their parents wanted them to. Or people that work in industry, 140 00:07:49,596 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 1: or people that have some adjacent thing that you know, 141 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:57,116 Speaker 1: making building an audience and sometimes on substack and sometimes 142 00:07:57,196 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 1: building a fortune, and who but for substack, would otherwise 143 00:08:00,876 --> 00:08:02,596 Speaker 1: not be writing. It's not like they would, you know, 144 00:08:02,716 --> 00:08:04,796 Speaker 1: have a job at the Atlantic or something and who 145 00:08:04,956 --> 00:08:06,836 Speaker 1: who I have never heard of, who most people have 146 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:10,156 Speaker 1: never heard of, right, which is cool and interesting. I mean, 147 00:08:10,196 --> 00:08:12,956 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a smaller YouTube in that way, 148 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:17,356 Speaker 1: right where there's just this vast array of niches that 149 00:08:17,516 --> 00:08:21,036 Speaker 1: people can fill. And so I mean I am curious 150 00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:25,556 Speaker 1: to that point to get a sense of basically the 151 00:08:25,956 --> 00:08:30,436 Speaker 1: distribution of I don't mean the literal email distribution, but 152 00:08:30,516 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 1: the sort of distribution curve of substacks of the newsletters 153 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:37,836 Speaker 1: people write like, how big a substack? How big a substack? 154 00:08:38,036 --> 00:08:39,676 Speaker 1: What have we shared? I think we've shared that we're 155 00:08:39,756 --> 00:08:43,636 Speaker 1: over a million paying subscribers, hundreds of thousand of people 156 00:08:43,636 --> 00:08:47,356 Speaker 1: who started a substack. I forget what our latest So sorry, 157 00:08:47,396 --> 00:08:51,476 Speaker 1: a million paying subscribers and the what is the well, 158 00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:53,516 Speaker 1: I guess for that when the average subscription is like 159 00:08:54,396 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 1: sixty bucks a year ish, yeah, eighty somewhere in there. Okay, 160 00:08:58,596 --> 00:09:03,116 Speaker 1: So is that something like eighty million dollars a year 161 00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 1: that people are paying not to you, obviously, but to 162 00:09:05,796 --> 00:09:07,836 Speaker 1: the writers, of which you get ten percent? Is that 163 00:09:07,916 --> 00:09:10,236 Speaker 1: the ballpark way to think about it? Yeah, I mean, 164 00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:12,196 Speaker 1: it's it's more than that, but it's that's you know, 165 00:09:12,436 --> 00:09:15,356 Speaker 1: that's the right, if I if I ballparked it at 166 00:09:15,356 --> 00:09:17,916 Speaker 1: one hundred million for the writers, ten of which goes 167 00:09:17,956 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 1: to you, would I be not wildly wrong. You're in 168 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:23,596 Speaker 1: the right order, mind, dude. Okay. Um. And then so 169 00:09:23,796 --> 00:09:26,996 Speaker 1: within that, like again to your point of like, well, 170 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:29,956 Speaker 1: there's a few famous people, and you know, I'm curious 171 00:09:30,076 --> 00:09:33,996 Speaker 1: to know how how the how the distribution works there, 172 00:09:34,356 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 1: you know, how much are the top people making? And 173 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: then like what's the median? Yeah, so the distribution is 174 00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:45,956 Speaker 1: super sort of power laws you might expect. So I 175 00:09:45,996 --> 00:09:49,876 Speaker 1: think the top ten people make something like twenty or 176 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:52,676 Speaker 1: twenty five million bucks a year between them. Wow, good 177 00:09:52,756 --> 00:09:54,836 Speaker 1: for them, they should only live them be Well, yeah, 178 00:09:55,316 --> 00:09:58,476 Speaker 1: people were making millions of dollars a year. Individuals are 179 00:09:58,516 --> 00:10:00,716 Speaker 1: making millions of dollars a year. Individuals are making millions 180 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:03,276 Speaker 1: of dollars a year, but a very small number. It's 181 00:10:03,316 --> 00:10:06,836 Speaker 1: like the Taylor Swift of substack and there's you know, 182 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:09,596 Speaker 1: there's they're actually quite a healthy number people who are 183 00:10:09,636 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 1: making you know, real money. If you think of real 184 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:15,436 Speaker 1: money is like multiple times which you'd make as a 185 00:10:15,996 --> 00:10:18,716 Speaker 1: writer at a publication. I definitely think of that as 186 00:10:18,796 --> 00:10:22,876 Speaker 1: real money. But Okay, so your question is like what's 187 00:10:22,876 --> 00:10:26,836 Speaker 1: the distribution and the like, tell me about the median person, Like, yes, 188 00:10:26,916 --> 00:10:29,596 Speaker 1: there are some superstars, and I am happy for those superstars, 189 00:10:30,036 --> 00:10:33,756 Speaker 1: but what's like a normal Like how many people are 190 00:10:33,836 --> 00:10:36,996 Speaker 1: making fifty thousand dollars year? Like fifty thousand dollars years? 191 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:39,716 Speaker 1: Like up perfectly, you know that's a that's a living. 192 00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:41,836 Speaker 1: And if you can write your own email newsletter and 193 00:10:41,916 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 1: make fifty thousand dollars a year, that's cool. But how 194 00:10:43,996 --> 00:10:46,916 Speaker 1: many of those people are there? I mean it's like hundreds, 195 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:51,236 Speaker 1: I think? Okay, okay, I mean if you're charging five 196 00:10:51,276 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 1: bucks a month and you can get a thousand, a 197 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:57,036 Speaker 1: couple thousand people to pay you five bucks a month, like, 198 00:10:57,276 --> 00:10:59,996 Speaker 1: that's a living, and like a couple thousand people isn't 199 00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:02,876 Speaker 1: that many? Right? So? Like, how does that work? Are 200 00:11:02,916 --> 00:11:05,796 Speaker 1: there examples of that? Are there? Sort of things you've 201 00:11:05,836 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 1: found that people have made that work? Are there particularly 202 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:13,156 Speaker 1: interesting niches will have filled? That math is very important 203 00:11:13,196 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 1: to why substack works. The fact that a relatively small 204 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:20,236 Speaker 1: number of people can chip in five bucks a month 205 00:11:20,276 --> 00:11:22,596 Speaker 1: and start to be meaningful. And it's interesting because if 206 00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 1: you can get to a thousand, there's usually not a 207 00:11:24,596 --> 00:11:27,076 Speaker 1: reason you couldn't get to two thousand or five thousand 208 00:11:27,156 --> 00:11:29,836 Speaker 1: or ten thousand over time, and then that's why you 209 00:11:29,876 --> 00:11:31,436 Speaker 1: get this sort of power law thing where you have 210 00:11:31,716 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 1: this upside. But there's lots of things about what it 211 00:11:36,476 --> 00:11:38,076 Speaker 1: takes to get there. The thing I think is most 212 00:11:38,116 --> 00:11:41,316 Speaker 1: interesting about it, though, is how different the kinds of 213 00:11:41,476 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 1: things you want to do to get there are from 214 00:11:44,756 --> 00:11:46,356 Speaker 1: the things that would that you would do if you 215 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:50,116 Speaker 1: wanted to kind of like maximize your audience to get 216 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:53,796 Speaker 1: ad impressions right all of a sudden, Your incentives if 217 00:11:53,836 --> 00:11:55,436 Speaker 1: you want to if you're trying to get your thousand 218 00:11:55,476 --> 00:11:59,956 Speaker 1: true fans, your incentive is to create something that a 219 00:12:00,156 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 1: thousand people deeply value and fall in love with and 220 00:12:04,876 --> 00:12:06,636 Speaker 1: want to pay you for and want to keep paying 221 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:08,876 Speaker 1: you for. Right you want to earn and keep the 222 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:12,756 Speaker 1: trust of a thousand people making something they deeply value. 223 00:12:13,476 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: And what that means is that there's if there's something 224 00:12:15,796 --> 00:12:18,876 Speaker 1: out there that's like that that a thousand people would 225 00:12:18,996 --> 00:12:22,196 Speaker 1: deeply value, but you couldn't necessarily get a million people 226 00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:25,836 Speaker 1: to click on it's very very valuable on substack, and 227 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:28,036 Speaker 1: so there's a whole class of very valuable stuff that 228 00:12:28,196 --> 00:12:31,636 Speaker 1: otherwise might not get created that can now get created. 229 00:12:31,836 --> 00:12:33,796 Speaker 1: And so, I mean the obvious ones that come to 230 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:36,156 Speaker 1: mind are sort of business related, and there have been 231 00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:39,196 Speaker 1: you know, industry newsletters have existed for a long time 232 00:12:39,276 --> 00:12:41,476 Speaker 1: for this reason, right, There are lots of industry newsletters 233 00:12:41,516 --> 00:12:44,436 Speaker 1: that are a thousand dollars per subscription because you know 234 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:46,236 Speaker 1: your work is paying for it. I mean that's one. 235 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:49,276 Speaker 1: Are there kind of less obvious ones, you know, ones 236 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:53,356 Speaker 1: that are more oh less work related? Say, And that 237 00:12:53,516 --> 00:12:56,236 Speaker 1: was one of our earliest questions, and we sort of 238 00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:58,436 Speaker 1: we wondered this. We're like, well, okay, people if they 239 00:12:58,476 --> 00:13:01,076 Speaker 1: can if they can say that it's for their job, 240 00:13:01,196 --> 00:13:02,556 Speaker 1: or they can put it on a corporate credit card, 241 00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:04,436 Speaker 1: they'll pay for it. But will they really pay for 242 00:13:05,236 --> 00:13:09,356 Speaker 1: something else? But pretty quickly we had people doing kind 243 00:13:09,356 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: of like literary comedy and culture writing and politics and 244 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:19,476 Speaker 1: the breadth of topics that it turns out that you 245 00:13:19,596 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 1: can make on substack is kind of ridiculous. There's somebody 246 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:27,796 Speaker 1: writing reviews of canned fish. I don't know if he's 247 00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:29,276 Speaker 1: making a ton of money, but it's like that's the 248 00:13:29,356 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 1: sort of level of meeting to say, I mean, sure, 249 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:34,716 Speaker 1: it's the internet, Right, so every niche you can imagine, 250 00:13:34,796 --> 00:13:36,796 Speaker 1: and then a ton more that you can't imagine are 251 00:13:36,836 --> 00:13:39,876 Speaker 1: going to exist. The interesting question to me is what 252 00:13:40,036 --> 00:13:42,116 Speaker 1: can you get a thousand people to pay five bucks 253 00:13:42,156 --> 00:13:44,236 Speaker 1: a month for? And and maybe more to the point, 254 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:46,956 Speaker 1: like what have you learned about how to do that? 255 00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:51,716 Speaker 1: Because I feel like that trick is actually generalizable beyond substack, Right, 256 00:13:51,756 --> 00:13:55,556 Speaker 1: that's the basic, you know, minimum viable product. Find your 257 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 1: core customers, make them love you, iterate like, I want 258 00:13:59,396 --> 00:14:00,716 Speaker 1: to figure out how to do that better on the 259 00:14:00,836 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 1: podcast that I make. Right, it's clearly a more mass model, 260 00:14:04,636 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 1: but still the idea of like making a thing a 261 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: few people really love, I think is is really compelling. 262 00:14:11,196 --> 00:14:13,676 Speaker 1: And so what have you learned about how to do 263 00:14:13,796 --> 00:14:18,316 Speaker 1: that specifically? Yeah, so topic can be almost anything. The 264 00:14:18,476 --> 00:14:20,916 Speaker 1: things that really matter are you want to have a 265 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 1: distinct perspective. Exactly what that means depends on what it is, 266 00:14:25,916 --> 00:14:28,116 Speaker 1: but you want it to be either a distinct voice 267 00:14:28,236 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 1: or distinct worldview, or some distinct expertise or distinct sensibility, 268 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:35,556 Speaker 1: something where the thing that the people are paying for 269 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:38,916 Speaker 1: is not the content. Nobody has a problem that nobody 270 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:40,996 Speaker 1: comes to substack and says I wish I could get 271 00:14:41,036 --> 00:14:42,676 Speaker 1: more email. I wish I had more things to me. 272 00:14:43,076 --> 00:14:46,276 Speaker 1: Nobody has that problem, right. The thing that you pay 273 00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:51,036 Speaker 1: for is I need this person's take or this person's thought, 274 00:14:51,196 --> 00:14:55,716 Speaker 1: or this person's recommendation, and I want them to curate 275 00:14:55,836 --> 00:14:59,236 Speaker 1: a slice of my intellectual life or my attention for me. 276 00:14:59,676 --> 00:15:02,796 Speaker 1: I want to delegate some of my worldview building to 277 00:15:03,036 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 1: this person who I've built up this trust with over time. 278 00:15:07,476 --> 00:15:10,236 Speaker 1: And in order to get that to worth paying money for, 279 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:14,916 Speaker 1: you want that to be distinct enough that you're not 280 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:17,476 Speaker 1: you know, you're not giving them something that they could 281 00:15:17,516 --> 00:15:20,076 Speaker 1: get in a hundred different places. And you do have 282 00:15:20,196 --> 00:15:24,916 Speaker 1: to kind of think about that integrity right being there 283 00:15:24,916 --> 00:15:27,516 Speaker 1: if you're curating a slice of their attention, being judicious 284 00:15:27,516 --> 00:15:29,556 Speaker 1: about what you're asking them to spend that attention. For 285 00:15:29,956 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 1: somebody gives you permission to send them emails or gives 286 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:35,516 Speaker 1: you adds you to their podcast player, it's not only 287 00:15:35,596 --> 00:15:37,396 Speaker 1: should you send them good stuff, but you kind of 288 00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:39,396 Speaker 1: want to not send them things that are not worth 289 00:15:39,476 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 1: their time or are not interesting. You mentioned you called 290 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:46,676 Speaker 1: it integrity, but the idea of respecting people's time their inbox, 291 00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:51,716 Speaker 1: and it reminded me of the fact that not only 292 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 1: is substack subscription based, people pay, you know, to get 293 00:15:56,436 --> 00:16:00,316 Speaker 1: a lot of substecks. It's pretty anti AD, right, like, 294 00:16:00,716 --> 00:16:02,796 Speaker 1: if you have a substeck, are you even allowed to 295 00:16:02,876 --> 00:16:06,836 Speaker 1: put ads in your newsletter? We definitely frown on it. 296 00:16:06,956 --> 00:16:08,956 Speaker 1: And this is an interesting point where we are very 297 00:16:09,116 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 1: anti AD, but we're also very pro freedom. Basically, like, 298 00:16:13,556 --> 00:16:15,716 Speaker 1: it's your editorial content. You're allowed to put what you want. 299 00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:18,876 Speaker 1: So we've fallen short of saying we're going to police 300 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:21,396 Speaker 1: what you put in your newsletter, provided you're not literally 301 00:16:21,476 --> 00:16:23,436 Speaker 1: spamming people, which we take a very dim view of. 302 00:16:24,516 --> 00:16:26,956 Speaker 1: But we don't build any AD technology. We don't we're 303 00:16:26,996 --> 00:16:29,996 Speaker 1: not sort of encouraging people to sort of have a 304 00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:32,916 Speaker 1: hybrid model in general, even though that seems like it 305 00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:35,076 Speaker 1: ought to be appealing. We think that focusing on the 306 00:16:35,156 --> 00:16:38,156 Speaker 1: other thing actually maximizes the benefits of that thousand true 307 00:16:38,196 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 1: fans logic, Tell me more, Tell me more about that? 308 00:16:41,836 --> 00:16:44,116 Speaker 1: Is that you don't sound on the fence about it. 309 00:16:44,236 --> 00:16:45,996 Speaker 1: Has the company been on the fence about it? Could 310 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:49,356 Speaker 1: you imagine becoming more proad. It's something we used to 311 00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 1: get a lot from writers and the kind of the 312 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:55,756 Speaker 1: logic is like, hey, subscriptions are money. Advertising is money. 313 00:16:56,036 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 1: One money plus two money is better than just one money. 314 00:16:59,636 --> 00:17:02,156 Speaker 1: Like it's like, wouldn't I make more money? I think 315 00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:06,276 Speaker 1: for in the writing world, people have seen enough success 316 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:10,556 Speaker 1: on substack that it's people are starting to get that 317 00:17:10,676 --> 00:17:13,876 Speaker 1: the this model is working. And there's there's people who 318 00:17:13,916 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 1: are in that category of people who are making millions 319 00:17:16,276 --> 00:17:18,196 Speaker 1: of dollars a year on substack, who I personally at 320 00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:20,316 Speaker 1: the start had to convince to turn on payments. And 321 00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:21,876 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I'm not gonna I'm gonna go do 322 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:24,316 Speaker 1: some sponsorship thing or I'm just gonna grow it and 323 00:17:24,316 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 1: I'm gonna blow blow. I don't think I can really 324 00:17:25,836 --> 00:17:27,836 Speaker 1: make any money, and then I'm gonna just try it. 325 00:17:28,156 --> 00:17:31,676 Speaker 1: You know, you have whatever The New Yorker, the Washington 326 00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:35,836 Speaker 1: Post very very excellent publications that I pay for with 327 00:17:35,956 --> 00:17:38,676 Speaker 1: my own money, and I don't resent them running ads 328 00:17:38,716 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I can. I can see the argument 329 00:17:42,956 --> 00:17:44,636 Speaker 1: for that, And I think people can make the argument 330 00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 1: for podcasts. You know, I personally, every time I listen 331 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:49,356 Speaker 1: to a podcast and there's a break, that's like, now 332 00:17:49,476 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: let me tell you about something else. I'm like, okay, 333 00:17:51,956 --> 00:17:54,276 Speaker 1: they're like coming right at me right now, you're coming 334 00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 1: right at I'm not gonna and listen, I don't begrudge it, 335 00:17:56,716 --> 00:18:01,156 Speaker 1: but I'm not going to say that I love it. Now, 336 00:18:01,276 --> 00:18:04,116 Speaker 1: let me tell you about something else. We'll be back 337 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:06,676 Speaker 1: in a minute to talk about bundling, unbundling and a 338 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 1: problem substack has not yet solved. Now back to the show. 339 00:18:18,556 --> 00:18:20,996 Speaker 1: So the first part of my conversation with Chris was 340 00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:24,996 Speaker 1: largely about that thousand true fans idea. The next part 341 00:18:25,036 --> 00:18:27,556 Speaker 1: of the conversation is about another famous tech saying, this 342 00:18:27,676 --> 00:18:30,356 Speaker 1: one is like kind of half joke, half idea, and 343 00:18:30,436 --> 00:18:32,676 Speaker 1: it comes from Jim Barksdale, who is a big tech 344 00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:35,316 Speaker 1: guy back in the nineties. The key line is this, 345 00:18:36,076 --> 00:18:38,516 Speaker 1: there are only two ways to make money in business. 346 00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:41,996 Speaker 1: One is to bundle, the other is to unbundle. Like 347 00:18:42,116 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 1: what do you make of that quote? What do I 348 00:18:43,396 --> 00:18:45,836 Speaker 1: make of that quote? I buy it, I think, and 349 00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:48,436 Speaker 1: I agree with you that so far subject has been 350 00:18:48,956 --> 00:18:52,396 Speaker 1: this big unbundling energy. Right. The fact that as an 351 00:18:52,476 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: individual writer you can go and start your own thing 352 00:18:56,396 --> 00:18:58,236 Speaker 1: and make it on your own and get the upside 353 00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:00,476 Speaker 1: of what you're doing and sometimes make you ten times 354 00:19:00,516 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: as much money as you've ever made before, and have 355 00:19:02,716 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 1: a business and all this stuff. That's wonderful. It's a 356 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:08,756 Speaker 1: good thing. I actually think that there's a lot more 357 00:19:08,916 --> 00:19:12,036 Speaker 1: energy left in that thing. Um. I think people people 358 00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:14,076 Speaker 1: sometimes they're like, well, what's going to happen when people 359 00:19:14,116 --> 00:19:16,796 Speaker 1: are getting their eight substack subscription and they're really annoyed 360 00:19:16,836 --> 00:19:18,956 Speaker 1: that they have to have so many different substack subscriptions. 361 00:19:19,316 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know what, I like, bring on 362 00:19:21,636 --> 00:19:23,276 Speaker 1: that problem. I would love to live in the world 363 00:19:23,316 --> 00:19:26,196 Speaker 1: where that's your problem. I mean, obviously people that have 364 00:19:26,516 --> 00:19:28,556 Speaker 1: in particular would love to live in the world where 365 00:19:28,596 --> 00:19:32,356 Speaker 1: that's the problem. Of course, and there's you know, there 366 00:19:32,396 --> 00:19:34,036 Speaker 1: are some people who who have that today, there's some 367 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:35,836 Speaker 1: people that are you know, subscribed to a whole bunch 368 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 1: of things, but far and away, I think there's a 369 00:19:39,636 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 1: ton of energy left in this sort of unbundling phase 370 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 1: of like, I'm a writer, I have something to say, 371 00:19:45,356 --> 00:19:47,316 Speaker 1: and I like, I want it to be my thing. 372 00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:53,196 Speaker 1: I do think there's an interesting effect where bundle economics 373 00:19:53,236 --> 00:19:57,116 Speaker 1: are real, and if we are successful at the grand 374 00:19:57,316 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 1: unbundling that we are in the middle of doing, at 375 00:20:00,596 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: some point there's this economic potential energy that for unlocking 376 00:20:05,756 --> 00:20:09,596 Speaker 1: the surplus of bundle economics for writers and readers, And 377 00:20:09,676 --> 00:20:11,396 Speaker 1: there's a bunch of ways you can imagine that happening. 378 00:20:11,476 --> 00:20:13,396 Speaker 1: Like one thing that's happening already is that substacks are 379 00:20:13,436 --> 00:20:16,676 Speaker 1: turning into companies and institutions, right, people are starting as 380 00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:19,316 Speaker 1: one thing and then building a newsroom or building a company. 381 00:20:19,476 --> 00:20:20,916 Speaker 1: And the other thing that would be, like the obvious 382 00:20:20,956 --> 00:20:22,356 Speaker 1: thing would be like, well, what if you just had 383 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:24,716 Speaker 1: like a Netflix style thing, or like this is what 384 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:26,596 Speaker 1: medium did. It's like, why don't you just have one 385 00:20:27,036 --> 00:20:30,396 Speaker 1: a substack subscription and then everything like you know, there's 386 00:20:30,396 --> 00:20:32,756 Speaker 1: some magic algorithm that dolls out like who gets the 387 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:36,636 Speaker 1: money based on what? And the problem with that is 388 00:20:36,756 --> 00:20:40,796 Speaker 1: that it although it unlocks the bundle economics, it kills 389 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:44,356 Speaker 1: the fundamental magic of what's good about substack, which is 390 00:20:44,436 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 1: the direct intentional relationship between the reader and the writer. Right, Like, 391 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 1: the whole deal is I'd choose what to spend. I 392 00:20:52,076 --> 00:20:56,116 Speaker 1: don't know exactly what the right solution to this is yet, 393 00:20:56,596 --> 00:20:59,756 Speaker 1: but my strong intuition is that the right answer is 394 00:20:59,836 --> 00:21:03,236 Speaker 1: that you do, in fact want a bundle or bundles 395 00:21:03,596 --> 00:21:06,156 Speaker 1: but that it needs to happen bottom up rather than 396 00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:08,996 Speaker 1: top down. I think that, you know, as with anything, 397 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 1: the hard part is making it simple. This is one 398 00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:14,716 Speaker 1: of the fun things about building products, building good products, 399 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 1: is you like sweat and curse and wring your hands 400 00:21:22,036 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 1: and pull your hair out for a long time trying 401 00:21:23,956 --> 00:21:26,316 Speaker 1: to wrangle a thing. And if you actually do a 402 00:21:26,436 --> 00:21:29,116 Speaker 1: good job at the end of it all, you show 403 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:33,556 Speaker 1: somebody and they say, yeah, obviously, yeah, right, you idiot, 404 00:21:33,636 --> 00:21:36,196 Speaker 1: Like you spent how long coming up with like an 405 00:21:36,276 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 1: email newsletter with a website that takes money, you idiot? Like, yeah, 406 00:21:41,676 --> 00:21:44,356 Speaker 1: but that's actually good, right, And you're not there yet 407 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:46,756 Speaker 1: for the bundle? Is that is that the upshot? Yeah? 408 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: And for the bundle, and we're still in the hard part. 409 00:21:50,716 --> 00:21:54,596 Speaker 1: And honestly, there's so much value right now, Like there's 410 00:21:55,516 --> 00:21:58,956 Speaker 1: there's so much value in these in the subscriptions as 411 00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:01,036 Speaker 1: they exist. And we're already doing a bunch of things 412 00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:04,716 Speaker 1: around cross promotion. We let writers recommend each other rather 413 00:22:04,796 --> 00:22:07,716 Speaker 1: than having some algorithm that recommends it. So that's another choice, 414 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: right In the same way that you're pretty clearly anti 415 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:14,876 Speaker 1: ad you seem pretty clearly anti recommendation. Algorithm, and that 416 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 1: one is maybe more surprising to me because you know, 417 00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:21,516 Speaker 1: discovery is hard, and I feel like you must know 418 00:22:21,716 --> 00:22:23,796 Speaker 1: a lot about what people read, and if they read 419 00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:26,476 Speaker 1: one thing, they like another thing, Like why not make 420 00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:30,876 Speaker 1: that kind of you know, collaborative filtering recommendation? Yeah, and 421 00:22:31,116 --> 00:22:33,076 Speaker 1: I would add some nuance there, like I don't think 422 00:22:33,116 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 1: I'm against recommendation algorithms per se, but I think the 423 00:22:37,356 --> 00:22:41,716 Speaker 1: specific thing that I'm suspicious of is the thing where 424 00:22:41,796 --> 00:22:46,356 Speaker 1: you make an algorithmic surface that you as the reader, 425 00:22:46,556 --> 00:22:49,516 Speaker 1: delegate as the control of how you spend your attention 426 00:22:50,276 --> 00:22:53,276 Speaker 1: that has some objective that may not be your objective. Well, 427 00:22:53,316 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 1: now you just turned substack into Twitter, right, That's that's 428 00:22:56,196 --> 00:22:58,676 Speaker 1: the straw man version though, or YouTube? Right, Like you 429 00:22:58,716 --> 00:23:00,276 Speaker 1: go to YouTube and it's like yea, yeah, you subscribe 430 00:23:00,276 --> 00:23:02,076 Speaker 1: to that. But like, don't worry, here's what you really 431 00:23:02,116 --> 00:23:04,156 Speaker 1: want to call. You don't have to do that. There's 432 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:08,316 Speaker 1: a way cooler version of it. That's just Hey, lots 433 00:23:08,316 --> 00:23:10,716 Speaker 1: of people who read a glace Let's also read Josh Barrow. 434 00:23:11,116 --> 00:23:12,796 Speaker 1: You might want to check it out. Like that doesn't 435 00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:16,476 Speaker 1: seem like you're trying to steal my mind, like a 436 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:20,236 Speaker 1: social media platform. Yeah, and I think I would argue 437 00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:22,076 Speaker 1: that we are doing the cool version of this right. 438 00:23:22,476 --> 00:23:23,956 Speaker 1: And the two things that are important to me in 439 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:27,196 Speaker 1: this are, number one, we're not just optimizing for engagement. 440 00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 1: We're not saying like, here's what you're going to click on, 441 00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:31,116 Speaker 1: and we're saying here's what you might like enough the 442 00:23:31,196 --> 00:23:32,636 Speaker 1: one day you would pay for it. And the other 443 00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:36,516 Speaker 1: thing is where possible, we'd love to have it be 444 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:39,156 Speaker 1: human powered. Right when you go to read a book, 445 00:23:39,556 --> 00:23:42,596 Speaker 1: the fact that an algorithm said to you that it 446 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 1: was the best possible book to you, even if you 447 00:23:44,436 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 1: could know that was the truth, might be less compelling 448 00:23:47,116 --> 00:23:50,476 Speaker 1: than somebody who you've trust and have gotten to know says, hey, 449 00:23:50,516 --> 00:23:52,156 Speaker 1: I think you should check this out for these reasons. 450 00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:54,116 Speaker 1: And so when you can have things that are that 451 00:23:54,236 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 1: are you know, incentivized the right way, and when you 452 00:23:56,796 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 1: can have human beings in the loop, we just think 453 00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:01,516 Speaker 1: that that's like a makes for a better experience, and 454 00:24:01,716 --> 00:24:04,876 Speaker 1: we've shown that you can make recommendations that people deeply 455 00:24:04,956 --> 00:24:07,636 Speaker 1: value that way. What's something you haven't figured out yet, Like, 456 00:24:07,716 --> 00:24:10,196 Speaker 1: what's something you're working on now, something maybe you've tried 457 00:24:10,276 --> 00:24:13,076 Speaker 1: and it didn't work, like what's a's a what's a 458 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:16,916 Speaker 1: problem you're trying to solve? Now? Okay, I'll tell you 459 00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:21,036 Speaker 1: one thing that I'm really fascinated with is when you 460 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:25,636 Speaker 1: get a bunch of people who deeply value this one 461 00:24:25,676 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 1: writer or this one crazy niche and you find all 462 00:24:29,156 --> 00:24:31,676 Speaker 1: the people who are willing to pay five or ten 463 00:24:31,716 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 1: bucks a month for that thing. Not only have you 464 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:37,116 Speaker 1: given them a piece of media and a connection with 465 00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:41,236 Speaker 1: the author they deeply value, You've created You've sort of 466 00:24:42,036 --> 00:24:46,596 Speaker 1: crystallized this potential community. The writing and the writer and 467 00:24:46,716 --> 00:24:48,396 Speaker 1: the thing you subscribe for is kind of like the 468 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 1: bat signal that draws in the people. But over time 469 00:24:52,516 --> 00:24:56,196 Speaker 1: the community ends up being a major piece of why 470 00:24:56,676 --> 00:24:59,196 Speaker 1: of the value for people right being among all the 471 00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:01,436 Speaker 1: other people who value this enough to pay for it, 472 00:25:01,796 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 1: not having a bunch of trolls, because you can moderate profitably, 473 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:09,396 Speaker 1: and so I think there's a tremendous amount of fential 474 00:25:09,476 --> 00:25:13,956 Speaker 1: energy there. It's something that writers and podcasters really want 475 00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:18,356 Speaker 1: from us, And I don't think that we've totally cracked 476 00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:20,676 Speaker 1: the answer to it yet, but we've been trying a 477 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 1: bunch of things. Some new stuff is coming up pretty soon. 478 00:25:23,556 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 1: That's pretty exciting. And I think if we can make 479 00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:31,876 Speaker 1: the community aspect of it, right, that will end up 480 00:25:31,916 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 1: being tremendously powerful. Well, it's interesting because it's like creeping 481 00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:40,916 Speaker 1: back towards social media, right, I mean, maybe a better 482 00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:45,836 Speaker 1: version of it, but fundamentally that's what you're talking about. Yeah, 483 00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:49,836 Speaker 1: I mean it's people talking to each other, people engaging 484 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:54,396 Speaker 1: with ideas, people building relationships. And it's again it's sort 485 00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:56,996 Speaker 1: of in this I think of it as an alternate 486 00:25:57,156 --> 00:26:01,676 Speaker 1: universe with different laws of physics from the universe where 487 00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: all of these giant platforms have grown up of the 488 00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:07,396 Speaker 1: kind of like massive engagement based AD supported thing, that's 489 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:09,356 Speaker 1: one way to build it. And we're building a kind 490 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:13,516 Speaker 1: of this alternate rails. So what's the thing you're about 491 00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:16,796 Speaker 1: to roll out? Am I allowed to talk about this one? Yes? 492 00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:23,676 Speaker 1: So we've been working on We've been working on chat. 493 00:26:24,916 --> 00:26:27,396 Speaker 1: That's something that you can do on substack chat like 494 00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:31,676 Speaker 1: real time, like like Slack style or g chat. Yeah, 495 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:33,236 Speaker 1: you could look at you could think of Slack, you 496 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:35,276 Speaker 1: could think of i RC back in the day. You 497 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:37,956 Speaker 1: can think of Discord is like an amazing thing. Discord 498 00:26:38,036 --> 00:26:40,276 Speaker 1: seems like the closest model there is that, right, I 499 00:26:40,316 --> 00:26:42,236 Speaker 1: don't know discord that well, but that's a very it's 500 00:26:42,236 --> 00:26:45,316 Speaker 1: like a community oriented chat, right, I mean is that 501 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:48,396 Speaker 1: what I should think of for what you're working on? Yeah, 502 00:26:48,396 --> 00:26:51,516 Speaker 1: I think closely related. Is it hard? Have you been 503 00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:55,076 Speaker 1: trying it and like not quite figuring it out? It's 504 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:57,556 Speaker 1: been working fairly well. I would say we're being We're 505 00:26:57,596 --> 00:26:59,716 Speaker 1: trying to be thoughtful about it. Right. The thing we 506 00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:02,436 Speaker 1: never want to do again is kind of break the 507 00:27:02,676 --> 00:27:05,516 Speaker 1: magic of substack. And in this case, one of the 508 00:27:05,556 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 1: things that really matters is you want the writer to 509 00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:09,596 Speaker 1: be in charge. Right. This is something where I'm if 510 00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:13,196 Speaker 1: I have my community, like and this is my little island, 511 00:27:13,276 --> 00:27:16,316 Speaker 1: my own private social network. Um, I want to be 512 00:27:17,036 --> 00:27:18,436 Speaker 1: in charge of that. It's not I don't want it 513 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:20,316 Speaker 1: to be something that ends up being like and people. 514 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 1: You know, there are substack writers who have tried having 515 00:27:22,836 --> 00:27:25,356 Speaker 1: a slack or a discord or one of the telegram right, 516 00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:28,196 Speaker 1: people just telling telegram, and it's often just like it 517 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,236 Speaker 1: becomes like this source of pain for them. They're like, 518 00:27:31,276 --> 00:27:33,156 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's this whole thing and I'm like, 519 00:27:33,396 --> 00:27:35,196 Speaker 1: it's not mine and I can't really it's got a 520 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:38,876 Speaker 1: life of its own. It's really get really spammy. You know. Yeah, 521 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 1: it's it's it's hard to make it right. And we're 522 00:27:41,236 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 1: not trying to make you know to the extent that 523 00:27:42,556 --> 00:27:45,676 Speaker 1: we're building. We're not trying to make the best standalone 524 00:27:46,316 --> 00:27:48,996 Speaker 1: communication product for any purpose. We're trying to make the 525 00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:54,076 Speaker 1: best place to build community and hang out with your 526 00:27:54,436 --> 00:27:58,076 Speaker 1: your substack audience and among your substack audience. Um. And 527 00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:00,156 Speaker 1: so we've been trying to like make sure that we're 528 00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 1: building that with people who are actually doing that, because 529 00:28:05,116 --> 00:28:08,196 Speaker 1: this is the fun part about building something like substack, 530 00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:10,076 Speaker 1: which in my estimation is like a holy new thing, 531 00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:15,636 Speaker 1: is all of the interesting features of it are emergent. 532 00:28:15,716 --> 00:28:17,476 Speaker 1: You don't find out until you have the actual people 533 00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:20,316 Speaker 1: trying to use them, and then you find out whether 534 00:28:20,396 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: it's working or not. And so we're being pretty thoughtful 535 00:28:22,956 --> 00:28:26,036 Speaker 1: and building it with real people and getting their feedback 536 00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:30,156 Speaker 1: and making sure it's good. So such Stack is not 537 00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 1: that big as a company, right an order of ten 538 00:28:33,596 --> 00:28:36,156 Speaker 1: million dollars a year in revenue is very small as 539 00:28:36,236 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 1: companies go, And yet I've heard a ton about it. 540 00:28:40,316 --> 00:28:42,476 Speaker 1: It's gotten a lot of coverage in the media. As 541 00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 1: a journalist, I know that journalists love writing about other 542 00:28:46,676 --> 00:28:48,876 Speaker 1: journalists and writing about journalism, and I think that's part 543 00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:51,556 Speaker 1: of it, right, So you've gotten a lot of coverage 544 00:28:51,596 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 1: for that. Also, you know, your company has been criticized 545 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:58,876 Speaker 1: for paying certain kinds of writers to come to the platform, 546 00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:02,676 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm not interested in relitigating the details 547 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:05,516 Speaker 1: of that, but I'm curious how the sort of two 548 00:29:05,676 --> 00:29:09,036 Speaker 1: sides of that have played out. Right, How getting covered 549 00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:12,356 Speaker 1: much more than a company your size would get covered 550 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: if it weren't basically a media company or a sort 551 00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:17,516 Speaker 1: of media adjacent company. How has that been for you? 552 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:20,796 Speaker 1: Have the pluses outweighed the minuses? How do you weigh that? Yeah, 553 00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:22,796 Speaker 1: the way that I think of this is that we 554 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:26,676 Speaker 1: you know, substock has an outsize impact on the culture. 555 00:29:28,276 --> 00:29:32,516 Speaker 1: People care about it for reasons that are valid and 556 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: go beyond the money. We've taken a lot of heat. 557 00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:38,156 Speaker 1: We've had people very thrilled at us and very mad 558 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:42,956 Speaker 1: at us, and I've always felt like we can't complain 559 00:29:42,996 --> 00:29:45,236 Speaker 1: too much about that. You know, we kind of set 560 00:29:45,316 --> 00:29:49,196 Speaker 1: out with these, you know, the two ambitions. But one 561 00:29:49,196 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 1: of the ambitions is very grandiose, right, It's about making 562 00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:54,796 Speaker 1: this new business model for writing and culture. On the 563 00:29:54,836 --> 00:29:58,396 Speaker 1: Internet and having that dramatically shape the world and who 564 00:29:58,436 --> 00:30:02,676 Speaker 1: people are. And there's just no way that you succeed 565 00:30:02,756 --> 00:30:06,836 Speaker 1: at that without, you know, running towards the fire, running 566 00:30:06,836 --> 00:30:09,516 Speaker 1: towards the heat of the culture war and the media 567 00:30:09,836 --> 00:30:12,396 Speaker 1: and the spotlight and all of the things that people 568 00:30:12,476 --> 00:30:14,756 Speaker 1: care about. And so as much as it can be 569 00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:17,636 Speaker 1: both thrilling and uncomfortable, I don't feel like we get 570 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:19,716 Speaker 1: to complain. This is kind of what we signed up for, 571 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:22,556 Speaker 1: and all of our paths to success do lead through it. 572 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:35,636 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the Lightning Round. Okay, 573 00:30:35,716 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 1: let's get back to the show. We're going to close 574 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:40,436 Speaker 1: with the Lightning Round. There are two names that come 575 00:30:40,516 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 1: up in the Lightning Round here that I didn't explain 576 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 1: during the interview, but I should have. One name is 577 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:47,796 Speaker 1: Jane Jacobs. She's the author of a book called The 578 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:51,236 Speaker 1: Death and Life of American Cities. The other name is 579 00:30:51,396 --> 00:30:54,556 Speaker 1: Matt Levine. He's a finance writer who writes a newsletter 580 00:30:54,676 --> 00:30:58,036 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg News. Now let's get to the Lightning Round. 581 00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:01,636 Speaker 1: What's the most important lesson you learned from reading Jane Jacobs. 582 00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:10,916 Speaker 1: I love the broad impact that's small, practical details of 583 00:31:11,036 --> 00:31:14,716 Speaker 1: the spaces we inhabit can have on how we live 584 00:31:14,756 --> 00:31:17,516 Speaker 1: our lives. And there's lots of stuff in Jane Jacobs. 585 00:31:17,556 --> 00:31:18,956 Speaker 1: It's like that. I don't know if all of it 586 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:23,156 Speaker 1: is well empirically supportive, but there's this fascination with you know, 587 00:31:23,276 --> 00:31:27,316 Speaker 1: if you have homes that have windows at street level 588 00:31:27,396 --> 00:31:29,636 Speaker 1: and people are looking out, people walking down the street 589 00:31:29,716 --> 00:31:32,916 Speaker 1: feel a different way, and it's this very brass tax 590 00:31:33,076 --> 00:31:37,556 Speaker 1: like physical aspect of geometry that ends up broadly shaping 591 00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:39,996 Speaker 1: people's lives. I think cities are like that, and I 592 00:31:40,036 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 1: think that the digital places we create are like that too. Okay, 593 00:31:43,716 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: if you could have one person in the world start 594 00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 1: writing a substack, who would it be? Might be Matt Levine. 595 00:31:53,276 --> 00:31:57,396 Speaker 1: Oh sure, me too. Same You would make so much 596 00:31:57,476 --> 00:32:01,916 Speaker 1: money it's absurd. I'm sure he's doing well, but yeah, 597 00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 1: it's a good choice. Really really got me with that one. 598 00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:08,516 Speaker 1: If everything goes well, what problem will you be trying 599 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:12,236 Speaker 1: to solve in five years? One thing I think about 600 00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:14,916 Speaker 1: if we're, you know, successful in all the things we 601 00:32:14,996 --> 00:32:17,316 Speaker 1: want to succeed at, this becomes this bigger and bigger 602 00:32:17,396 --> 00:32:20,716 Speaker 1: that the GDP of the sub stack of verse gets 603 00:32:20,796 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 1: gets more and more. You know, we are built on 604 00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:28,636 Speaker 1: this foundation of the ideals of a free press, the 605 00:32:28,756 --> 00:32:30,796 Speaker 1: ideals that writers should get to like, have their space, 606 00:32:30,836 --> 00:32:32,756 Speaker 1: and make what they want. One thing that I could 607 00:32:32,756 --> 00:32:36,876 Speaker 1: see being very interesting is as that goes international, having 608 00:32:36,996 --> 00:32:41,196 Speaker 1: that collide with various societies where unlike here in the US, 609 00:32:41,276 --> 00:32:43,916 Speaker 1: there's not a strong legal and cultural protection for the 610 00:32:43,996 --> 00:32:46,676 Speaker 1: idea that people should be allowed to write have ideas 611 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:49,236 Speaker 1: people should be allowed to sign up for it. I 612 00:32:49,316 --> 00:32:51,476 Speaker 1: think that's not a free press, right, And it's not 613 00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:53,596 Speaker 1: a free press. There's not a free press. Yeah, and 614 00:32:53,716 --> 00:32:55,276 Speaker 1: yet on subject there is a free press. And what 615 00:32:55,276 --> 00:32:56,996 Speaker 1: does that mean for us that that should be an 616 00:32:57,036 --> 00:32:59,196 Speaker 1: interesting problem? Should we earn the right to confront it? 617 00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:03,476 Speaker 1: How many subseects do you get? Oh man, hundreds? How 618 00:33:03,516 --> 00:33:07,596 Speaker 1: many do you read? How many do you read? Many? 619 00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:10,196 Speaker 1: I pay for tens and I read probably at least 620 00:33:10,196 --> 00:33:12,236 Speaker 1: all of those ones. I read a lot of substack 621 00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:16,516 Speaker 1: to the it's really it's great. I'm an avid user. 622 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:17,996 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say it's a problem, 623 00:33:18,036 --> 00:33:20,156 Speaker 1: but I guess you wouldn't say that. Oh, I love it. 624 00:33:20,236 --> 00:33:23,196 Speaker 1: It's a great Everyone should should mimic me in this capacity. 625 00:33:25,796 --> 00:33:27,796 Speaker 1: What's one piece of advice you'd give to somebody trying 626 00:33:27,796 --> 00:33:37,516 Speaker 1: to solve a hard problem, have a grand science fiction 627 00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:40,556 Speaker 1: vision of what you're trying to do, and take one 628 00:33:40,596 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 1: step at a time. You think you're going to work 629 00:33:44,236 --> 00:33:50,236 Speaker 1: on Substack forever could be Is there something that would 630 00:33:50,276 --> 00:33:52,356 Speaker 1: like signal to you that it's time to do something else. 631 00:33:55,116 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 1: If we go to business and they physically have me 632 00:33:57,836 --> 00:34:00,116 Speaker 1: removed from the office, I would probably have to consider 633 00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:07,676 Speaker 1: my options. Chris Best is the co founder and CEO 634 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:12,476 Speaker 1: of Substack. Today's show was produced by Edith Russolo, edited 635 00:34:12,516 --> 00:34:15,956 Speaker 1: by Robert Smith, and engineered by Amanda kay Wong. I'm 636 00:34:16,036 --> 00:34:18,396 Speaker 1: Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with another 637 00:34:18,436 --> 00:34:19,636 Speaker 1: episode of What's Your Problem.