Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: European technology regulations remain at the center of the trade
Speaker 2: talksteen the EU and US as they move to implement
Speaker 2: their deal reached over this summer. Tomorrow, the European Commission
Speaker 2: is due to set out changes to its rules on
Speaker 2: data protection and artificial intelligence. They're meant to ease the
Speaker 2: regulatory burden and boost competitiveness. We're joining me now in
Speaker 2: the Brussels radio studio to discuss is Glenn Fogels, CEO
Speaker 2: of Booking Holdings, which is the company that owns Booking
Speaker 2: dot Com, Priceline, Open Table and more. Glenn, good morning,
Speaker 2: Great to see you in Brussels. This is it's interesting
Speaker 2: to talk to you because you are one of those
Speaker 2: companies that is designated as a big platform by the
Speaker 2: EU for its regulatory purposes. We often think of perhaps
Speaker 2: the Googles or the Microsoft's of this world, but you
Speaker 2: are a company that many people will have had interactions
Speaker 2: with while booking travel or restaurants as it may have
Speaker 2: been involved. The European Commission says at once to simplify
Speaker 2: its digital rules. Is this something that you're excited about?
Speaker 2: Is going to help you to grow your company.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for having me, Steve, and it is an
Speaker 1: interesting time indeed, and you're right, we are an incredible
Speaker 1: user of technology, and we also are of course regulated
Speaker 1: by all the new AI rules that are coming into place,
Speaker 1: and that can be very complex, particularly because we are
Speaker 1: a very global company. Booking dot Com is one of
Speaker 1: the largest travel companies in the world, and as such
Speaker 1: we have to deal with business around the world and
Speaker 1: different regulatory environments create different problems. And one of our
Speaker 1: problems right now is with EU rules and that are
Speaker 1: more stringent and more complicated and require a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: of money investment for us versus some of our competitors
Speaker 1: around the world that are not subjected to the same rules,
Speaker 1: they get a competitive advantage and that's very disadvantageous to
Speaker 1: us here in Europe trying to build a very competitive business.
Speaker 2: So from your point of view, is it a question
Speaker 2: that not enough companies are being covered by these regulations
Speaker 2: or is that the rules are too onerous?
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's a lot of things going on
Speaker 1: right now. First of all, the rules are complex, not
Speaker 1: well understood, there's contradictions, there's issues of nobody sure exactly
Speaker 1: what does it mean in terms of our own businesses,
Speaker 1: so that right away can be problematic, but certainly the
Speaker 1: issue of having our competitors who are about the same
Speaker 1: size not subjected to the same rules, that can be
Speaker 1: very disadvantageous. So for example, I have engineers here in
Speaker 1: Amsterdam or doing tremendous great work, but if they can't
Speaker 1: get the cutting edge technology, that the stuff that's right
Speaker 1: out front, because the people who create this, the giant hyperscalers,
Speaker 1: don't want to bring it to Europe right now because
Speaker 1: they're concerned about the rules in Europe, so they're not
Speaker 1: giving it over to our engineers to be able to
Speaker 1: do things and play with and learn well. That puts
Speaker 1: us at a big disadvantage to a giant player in
Speaker 1: the US like Expedias one of our big competitors, or
Speaker 1: Airbnb's one of our big competitors, or the Chinese company
Speaker 1: trip dot com, they're a big competitor. They all can
Speaker 1: get that stuff. Our engineers may not be able to
Speaker 1: get it. And because there's no rule per se. But
Speaker 1: the issue is that people who create these rule create
Speaker 1: these new technologies, are concerned about being liability.
Speaker 2: Issue, which companies are afraid then to be selling those
Speaker 2: products into Europe.
Speaker 1: Well, I think every single I think every single AI
Speaker 1: creator always has to be thinking in the back of
Speaker 1: their head should I bring this to Europe right now
Speaker 1: or not? Is this a ladder not? Look, we all
Speaker 1: saw that when open ai first brought out chat GBT.
Speaker 1: You must remember when Italy said, oh, we don't want
Speaker 1: that right now, do you remember that. Well, that continues
Speaker 1: on and on and on. Where the concern is as
Speaker 1: these new technologies are developed, the people creating it look
Speaker 1: at the EU and they look at the European regulation
Speaker 1: and they are concerned.
Speaker 2: Well, the interesting thing is that we spoke to yougo
Speaker 2: recently about a survey that did it across nine European countries.
Speaker 2: Overwhelmingly the people they spoke to supported regulation of AI,
Speaker 2: even if that came at a cost of innovation. I wonder,
Speaker 2: in the conversations that you're having with you and regulators,
Speaker 2: how are you pushing your points towards them and do
Speaker 2: you feel you're being listened to.
Speaker 1: So this is a very complex problem here. We all
Speaker 1: agree we want to have safe technology. Nobody disagrees with that,
Speaker 1: and then you come up on the other hand, we
Speaker 1: don't want to end up far behind other countries and
Speaker 1: we don't want to end up not having great innovation
Speaker 1: that helps society too, So it's a balancing issue. The
Speaker 1: problem is the world is not one set of rules,
Speaker 1: So how do we work here in Europe? How together
Speaker 1: do we create up with rules that we'll be able
Speaker 1: to match up with rules in other parts of the world.
Speaker 1: And that is something that unfortunately we as a global
Speaker 1: company have to deal with, but we can We cannot
Speaker 1: change governments have to make these rules, but we can
Speaker 1: give advice and we can work with our legislator are
Speaker 1: different members of members of parliament and ways to try
Speaker 1: and help them understand the difficulties that we are facing.
Speaker 2: Can you give us the con create example of a
Speaker 2: difficulty you're facing that you're bringing up when your conversations
Speaker 2: while you're here in Brussels.
Speaker 1: Well, the one I just brought up right now, the
Speaker 1: fact that in terms of new technologies in AI, a
Speaker 1: gentic AI that's coming in, will we be allowed to
Speaker 1: use certain types of personalization or not versus our competitors
Speaker 1: may be able to do that, and we can It's
Speaker 1: a very technical things.
Speaker 2: Right, what's the opportunity cost? I suppose if you can't
Speaker 2: do that. What does that mean for your Facebook?
Speaker 1: Well, it ends up we're in one of the most
Speaker 1: competitive industries in the world. Travel is by far an
Speaker 1: area where people know that they get lots of different
Speaker 1: opportunities to do their travel. And if they come to
Speaker 1: US and they do not see the same benefits, the
Speaker 1: same ease of use, the same personalization that is shown
Speaker 1: by one of our competitors, we may not get that sale.
Speaker 1: And that's very In the long run. What you end
Speaker 1: up with is that we'll end up with companies in
Speaker 1: the in the European area cannot compete. Instead of hiring
Speaker 1: more people, we end up kind to let people go instead,
Speaker 1: and that be very detrimental for the economies overall.
Speaker 2: I mentioned Donald Trump's criticism of European tech regulation. We
Speaker 2: know it's a subject of discussion and the ongoing talks
Speaker 2: between the EU and the US. Does Donald Trump making
Speaker 2: criticism like that help your case? Do you agree with
Speaker 2: him on some of the changes that need to be made.
Speaker 1: Well, I won't own comment on what the US President
Speaker 1: has said or not so, so in more generalities, the
Speaker 1: fact is I understand completely the need for regulations, but
Speaker 1: also understand they need to be smart regulations. They need
Speaker 1: to be done in a way that enables companies to
Speaker 1: continue to develop new technologies will make better things for society.
Speaker 1: And that's what we're doing. Our travel is a wonderful thing.
Speaker 1: People love travel. We want to continue to create a
Speaker 1: way that it's easier our business and the use of
Speaker 1: technology is huge. We have an incredible number of people
Speaker 1: working all the time. But if the rules are such
Speaker 1: that we cannot compete, that will be detrimental to the
Speaker 1: entire European community.
Speaker 2: Given this process that's underway, simplification, you know, adapting these
Speaker 2: digit the rules. Are you confident that the rules will change?
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful. How about that? Okay?
Speaker 2: And what are you basing that hope on.
Speaker 1: Some people say that you know your strategy. Your strategy
Speaker 1: should not be just hope, and that's true. So what
Speaker 1: we're doing is we're talking with everyone we can in
Speaker 1: government to make sure they understand the complications. Look, one
Speaker 1: of the most powerful laws really is the law of
Speaker 1: the unintended consequences. And when new laws, new rules are
Speaker 1: put into place, really working people so they understand what
Speaker 1: the consequences of these rules or laws will be going forward.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes there isn't enough thought into that,
Speaker 1: and I'll give examples. Right now, we are incredibly disadvantaged
Speaker 1: by the DMA and the DSA. Now we are fully
Speaker 1: in favor of supporting them. We follow all the rules,
Speaker 1: we do everything, and it's costing us huge amounts millions
Speaker 1: and millions and millions of euros that we could be
Speaker 1: spending on hiring people, technology, building new things. Instead we're
Speaker 1: spending it on the regulatory framework. The problem is are
Speaker 1: competitors who are not subjected by these same rules, even
Speaker 1: though we are competing for the same customers, they are not,
Speaker 1: and that is problematic.
Speaker 2: Would you be hiring those people in Europe?
Speaker 1: Though?
Speaker 2: Because the talent frey and a lot of cases is
Speaker 2: in the US as well.
Speaker 1: So booking dot Com was born in Amsterdam, a small thing.
Speaker 1: We have over seven thousand employees. We are continuing to hire. Look,
Speaker 1: I would like to hire even more, but the hire
Speaker 1: more requires the capital to do it and the resources
Speaker 1: that you want to put in. Instead of putting it
Speaker 1: into regulations, we would put it into technology hiring more people.
Speaker 1: That'd be great, But I look, I recognize the need
Speaker 1: to have good regulatory frameworks.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you a little bit about the
Speaker 2: technology behind the travel as well. Though we're seeing, of
Speaker 2: course you're using AI in the company more and more
Speaker 2: as well. Are you trusting AI to make your travel
Speaker 2: plans now already?
Speaker 1: You know, there's that old saying of trust, but verify.
Speaker 1: I think that's something everybody should absolutely do. Look, I
Speaker 1: use a lot large language models for myself my own travel,
Speaker 1: and we have great things at booking dot Com. We
Speaker 1: have an AI trip Planner, which is a great way
Speaker 1: to use technology to find an easier way to come
Speaker 1: up with a holiday. I also do check though, I
Speaker 1: do check to make sure everything's exactly right and using
Speaker 1: other sorts, and I think people should continue to do
Speaker 1: that until such time that we really feel everything is
Speaker 1: at a level that you don't need to do that.
Speaker 1: I think that's some way down the future.
Speaker 2: You still sharing travel recommendations with people rather than necessarily
Speaker 2: direction them to the technology.
Speaker 1: Well, we will, you know, Look, we'll continue to give
Speaker 1: great recommendations. One of the things about AI that really
Speaker 1: is remarkable is how it comes up with things you
Speaker 1: may not have thought of before. And look, we go
Speaker 1: back to the issue of personalization. I would love for
Speaker 1: our AI trip planner at booking dot com to know
Speaker 1: every single thing about me. Remember everything about me, Use
Speaker 1: everything about me. Within all parts of our business. It's
Speaker 1: not just the booking for the hotel, but the flights,
Speaker 1: the car rental, everything that we're bringing together. Well, there's
Speaker 1: a problem actually in some of the regulations that makes
Speaker 1: that more difficult for us, because we have different brands
Speaker 1: that do the car rental, let's say, and that's problem matter.
Speaker 2: I'm sure the European regulators argue that it's about consent
Speaker 2: as well from people who want to share that sort
Speaker 2: of information.
Speaker 1: Consent is great. I'm in favor of consent. Nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with that, Glen.
Speaker 2: We'll have to leave it there. CEO of Booking Holdings,
Speaker 2: Glenn Fogel, thank you very much for joining us in Brussels,