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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: European technology regulations remain at the center of the trade

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Speaker 2: talksteen the EU and US as they move to implement

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Speaker 2: their deal reached over this summer. Tomorrow, the European Commission

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Speaker 2: is due to set out changes to its rules on

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Speaker 2: data protection and artificial intelligence. They're meant to ease the

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Speaker 2: regulatory burden and boost competitiveness. We're joining me now in

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Speaker 2: the Brussels radio studio to discuss is Glenn Fogels, CEO

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Speaker 2: of Booking Holdings, which is the company that owns Booking

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Speaker 2: dot Com, Priceline, Open Table and more. Glenn, good morning,

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Speaker 2: Great to see you in Brussels. This is it's interesting

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Speaker 2: to talk to you because you are one of those

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Speaker 2: companies that is designated as a big platform by the

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Speaker 2: EU for its regulatory purposes. We often think of perhaps

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Speaker 2: the Googles or the Microsoft's of this world, but you

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Speaker 2: are a company that many people will have had interactions

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Speaker 2: with while booking travel or restaurants as it may have

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Speaker 2: been involved. The European Commission says at once to simplify

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Speaker 2: its digital rules. Is this something that you're excited about?

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Speaker 2: Is going to help you to grow your company.

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks for having me, Steve, and it is an

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Speaker 1: interesting time indeed, and you're right, we are an incredible

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Speaker 1: user of technology, and we also are of course regulated

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Speaker 1: by all the new AI rules that are coming into place,

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Speaker 1: and that can be very complex, particularly because we are

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Speaker 1: a very global company. Booking dot Com is one of

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Speaker 1: the largest travel companies in the world, and as such

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Speaker 1: we have to deal with business around the world and

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Speaker 1: different regulatory environments create different problems. And one of our

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Speaker 1: problems right now is with EU rules and that are

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Speaker 1: more stringent and more complicated and require a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of money investment for us versus some of our competitors

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Speaker 1: around the world that are not subjected to the same rules,

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Speaker 1: they get a competitive advantage and that's very disadvantageous to

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Speaker 1: us here in Europe trying to build a very competitive business.

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Speaker 2: So from your point of view, is it a question

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Speaker 2: that not enough companies are being covered by these regulations

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Speaker 2: or is that the rules are too onerous?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there's a lot of things going on

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Speaker 1: right now. First of all, the rules are complex, not

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Speaker 1: well understood, there's contradictions, there's issues of nobody sure exactly

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Speaker 1: what does it mean in terms of our own businesses,

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Speaker 1: so that right away can be problematic, but certainly the

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Speaker 1: issue of having our competitors who are about the same

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Speaker 1: size not subjected to the same rules, that can be

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Speaker 1: very disadvantageous. So for example, I have engineers here in

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Speaker 1: Amsterdam or doing tremendous great work, but if they can't

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Speaker 1: get the cutting edge technology, that the stuff that's right

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Speaker 1: out front, because the people who create this, the giant hyperscalers,

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Speaker 1: don't want to bring it to Europe right now because

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Speaker 1: they're concerned about the rules in Europe, so they're not

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Speaker 1: giving it over to our engineers to be able to

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Speaker 1: do things and play with and learn well. That puts

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Speaker 1: us at a big disadvantage to a giant player in

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Speaker 1: the US like Expedias one of our big competitors, or

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Speaker 1: Airbnb's one of our big competitors, or the Chinese company

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Speaker 1: trip dot com, they're a big competitor. They all can

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Speaker 1: get that stuff. Our engineers may not be able to

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Speaker 1: get it. And because there's no rule per se. But

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Speaker 1: the issue is that people who create these rule create

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Speaker 1: these new technologies, are concerned about being liability.

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Speaker 2: Issue, which companies are afraid then to be selling those

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Speaker 2: products into Europe.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think every single I think every single AI

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Speaker 1: creator always has to be thinking in the back of

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Speaker 1: their head should I bring this to Europe right now

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Speaker 1: or not? Is this a ladder not? Look, we all

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Speaker 1: saw that when open ai first brought out chat GBT.

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Speaker 1: You must remember when Italy said, oh, we don't want

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Speaker 1: that right now, do you remember that. Well, that continues

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Speaker 1: on and on and on. Where the concern is as

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Speaker 1: these new technologies are developed, the people creating it look

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Speaker 1: at the EU and they look at the European regulation

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Speaker 1: and they are concerned.

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Speaker 2: Well, the interesting thing is that we spoke to yougo

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Speaker 2: recently about a survey that did it across nine European countries.

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Speaker 2: Overwhelmingly the people they spoke to supported regulation of AI,

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Speaker 2: even if that came at a cost of innovation. I wonder,

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Speaker 2: in the conversations that you're having with you and regulators,

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Speaker 2: how are you pushing your points towards them and do

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Speaker 2: you feel you're being listened to.

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Speaker 1: So this is a very complex problem here. We all

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Speaker 1: agree we want to have safe technology. Nobody disagrees with that,

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Speaker 1: and then you come up on the other hand, we

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Speaker 1: don't want to end up far behind other countries and

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Speaker 1: we don't want to end up not having great innovation

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Speaker 1: that helps society too, So it's a balancing issue. The

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Speaker 1: problem is the world is not one set of rules,

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Speaker 1: So how do we work here in Europe? How together

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Speaker 1: do we create up with rules that we'll be able

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Speaker 1: to match up with rules in other parts of the world.

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Speaker 1: And that is something that unfortunately we as a global

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Speaker 1: company have to deal with, but we can We cannot

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Speaker 1: change governments have to make these rules, but we can

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Speaker 1: give advice and we can work with our legislator are

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Speaker 1: different members of members of parliament and ways to try

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Speaker 1: and help them understand the difficulties that we are facing.

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Speaker 2: Can you give us the con create example of a

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Speaker 2: difficulty you're facing that you're bringing up when your conversations

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Speaker 2: while you're here in Brussels.

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Speaker 1: Well, the one I just brought up right now, the

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Speaker 1: fact that in terms of new technologies in AI, a

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Speaker 1: gentic AI that's coming in, will we be allowed to

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Speaker 1: use certain types of personalization or not versus our competitors

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Speaker 1: may be able to do that, and we can It's

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Speaker 1: a very technical things.

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Speaker 2: Right, what's the opportunity cost? I suppose if you can't

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Speaker 2: do that. What does that mean for your Facebook?

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Speaker 1: Well, it ends up we're in one of the most

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Speaker 1: competitive industries in the world. Travel is by far an

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Speaker 1: area where people know that they get lots of different

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Speaker 1: opportunities to do their travel. And if they come to

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Speaker 1: US and they do not see the same benefits, the

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Speaker 1: same ease of use, the same personalization that is shown

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Speaker 1: by one of our competitors, we may not get that sale.

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Speaker 1: And that's very In the long run. What you end

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Speaker 1: up with is that we'll end up with companies in

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Speaker 1: the in the European area cannot compete. Instead of hiring

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Speaker 1: more people, we end up kind to let people go instead,

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Speaker 1: and that be very detrimental for the economies overall.

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Speaker 2: I mentioned Donald Trump's criticism of European tech regulation. We

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Speaker 2: know it's a subject of discussion and the ongoing talks

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Speaker 2: between the EU and the US. Does Donald Trump making

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Speaker 2: criticism like that help your case? Do you agree with

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Speaker 2: him on some of the changes that need to be made.

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Speaker 1: Well, I won't own comment on what the US President

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Speaker 1: has said or not so, so in more generalities, the

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Speaker 1: fact is I understand completely the need for regulations, but

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Speaker 1: also understand they need to be smart regulations. They need

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Speaker 1: to be done in a way that enables companies to

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Speaker 1: continue to develop new technologies will make better things for society.

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Speaker 1: And that's what we're doing. Our travel is a wonderful thing.

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Speaker 1: People love travel. We want to continue to create a

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Speaker 1: way that it's easier our business and the use of

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Speaker 1: technology is huge. We have an incredible number of people

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Speaker 1: working all the time. But if the rules are such

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Speaker 1: that we cannot compete, that will be detrimental to the

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Speaker 1: entire European community.

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Speaker 2: Given this process that's underway, simplification, you know, adapting these

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Speaker 2: digit the rules. Are you confident that the rules will change?

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Speaker 1: I'm hopeful. How about that? Okay?

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Speaker 2: And what are you basing that hope on.

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Speaker 1: Some people say that you know your strategy. Your strategy

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Speaker 1: should not be just hope, and that's true. So what

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Speaker 1: we're doing is we're talking with everyone we can in

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Speaker 1: government to make sure they understand the complications. Look, one

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Speaker 1: of the most powerful laws really is the law of

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Speaker 1: the unintended consequences. And when new laws, new rules are

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Speaker 1: put into place, really working people so they understand what

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Speaker 1: the consequences of these rules or laws will be going forward.

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Speaker 1: And I think sometimes there isn't enough thought into that,

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Speaker 1: and I'll give examples. Right now, we are incredibly disadvantaged

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Speaker 1: by the DMA and the DSA. Now we are fully

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Speaker 1: in favor of supporting them. We follow all the rules,

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Speaker 1: we do everything, and it's costing us huge amounts millions

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Speaker 1: and millions and millions of euros that we could be

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Speaker 1: spending on hiring people, technology, building new things. Instead we're

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Speaker 1: spending it on the regulatory framework. The problem is are

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Speaker 1: competitors who are not subjected by these same rules, even

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Speaker 1: though we are competing for the same customers, they are not,

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Speaker 1: and that is problematic.

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Speaker 2: Would you be hiring those people in Europe?

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Speaker 1: Though?

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Speaker 2: Because the talent frey and a lot of cases is

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Speaker 2: in the US as well.

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Speaker 1: So booking dot Com was born in Amsterdam, a small thing.

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Speaker 1: We have over seven thousand employees. We are continuing to hire. Look,

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Speaker 1: I would like to hire even more, but the hire

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Speaker 1: more requires the capital to do it and the resources

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Speaker 1: that you want to put in. Instead of putting it

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Speaker 1: into regulations, we would put it into technology hiring more people.

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Speaker 1: That'd be great, But I look, I recognize the need

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Speaker 1: to have good regulatory frameworks.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you a little bit about the

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Speaker 2: technology behind the travel as well. Though we're seeing, of

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Speaker 2: course you're using AI in the company more and more

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Speaker 2: as well. Are you trusting AI to make your travel

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Speaker 2: plans now already?

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Speaker 1: You know, there's that old saying of trust, but verify.

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Speaker 1: I think that's something everybody should absolutely do. Look, I

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Speaker 1: use a lot large language models for myself my own travel,

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Speaker 1: and we have great things at booking dot Com. We

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Speaker 1: have an AI trip Planner, which is a great way

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Speaker 1: to use technology to find an easier way to come

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Speaker 1: up with a holiday. I also do check though, I

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Speaker 1: do check to make sure everything's exactly right and using

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Speaker 1: other sorts, and I think people should continue to do

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Speaker 1: that until such time that we really feel everything is

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Speaker 1: at a level that you don't need to do that.

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Speaker 1: I think that's some way down the future.

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Speaker 2: You still sharing travel recommendations with people rather than necessarily

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Speaker 2: direction them to the technology.

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Speaker 1: Well, we will, you know, Look, we'll continue to give

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Speaker 1: great recommendations. One of the things about AI that really

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Speaker 1: is remarkable is how it comes up with things you

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Speaker 1: may not have thought of before. And look, we go

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Speaker 1: back to the issue of personalization. I would love for

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Speaker 1: our AI trip planner at booking dot com to know

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Speaker 1: every single thing about me. Remember everything about me, Use

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Speaker 1: everything about me. Within all parts of our business. It's

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Speaker 1: not just the booking for the hotel, but the flights,

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Speaker 1: the car rental, everything that we're bringing together. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: a problem actually in some of the regulations that makes

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Speaker 1: that more difficult for us, because we have different brands

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Speaker 1: that do the car rental, let's say, and that's problem matter.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure the European regulators argue that it's about consent

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Speaker 2: as well from people who want to share that sort

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Speaker 2: of information.

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Speaker 1: Consent is great. I'm in favor of consent. Nothing wrong

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Speaker 1: with that, Glen.

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Speaker 2: We'll have to leave it there. CEO of Booking Holdings,

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Speaker 2: Glenn Fogel, thank you very much for joining us in Brussels,