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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. All Right,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Rivals, the show about music rivalries, feuds, beefs,

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Speaker 1: simmering tensions between pop stars, flannel grunge, at least in

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Speaker 1: this episode. My name is Stephen Hydn. My name is

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Speaker 1: Jordan run Tak. Thank you for listening to this episode.

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Speaker 1: This episode means a lot to me because I'm a

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Speaker 1: man in my early forties. There was a time in

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Speaker 1: my life where I listened to a lot of grunge

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Speaker 1: music when I was a youth, and you were like

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Speaker 1: a fetus. I think at this time I was trying

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Speaker 1: to master solid foods. Yes, I in the early nineties,

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Speaker 1: I would have been yet three or four. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about Nirvana versus Pearl Jam. This was like

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Speaker 1: the first rivalry in my life that I really really

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Speaker 1: cared about. And this doesn't register for you at all. No.

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Speaker 1: I mean, by the time, you know, in mid delate nineties,

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Speaker 1: when I was kind of becoming aware of popular music,

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Speaker 1: the battle was kind of over. Kurt had already died,

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Speaker 1: and Nirvana were obviously iconic, but they were static. They

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Speaker 1: were kind of locked in time and sort of exempt

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Speaker 1: from any kind of rivalry. They just that they were.

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Speaker 1: They were Nirvana period. They had already kind of entered

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Speaker 1: like Bob Marley, John Lennon, Jimmy Hendrix, Janice Choplin, Cannon

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Speaker 1: and as one of these millennials that I keep reading

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Speaker 1: about in the media. What is your feeling about Pearl

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Speaker 1: Jam Pearl Jam, I mean less strong, I mean that

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Speaker 1: they were a good band that kind of carried the

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Speaker 1: torch on from Nirvana in the whole Seattle scene. A

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Speaker 1: good band, a good band. Well, my first impressions of

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Speaker 1: Nirvana Pearl Jam, I know, I just stand up. I

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Speaker 1: thought you were going to flip the table. But my

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Speaker 1: first charitable of you, by the way to call Pearl

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Speaker 1: Jam good band were good? My no, I thought you

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Speaker 1: meant at the time. At the time, my first impresses

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Speaker 1: them were the Last Kiss. I just thought it was,

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Speaker 1: which I know, which is again completely excused my entire

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Speaker 1: take on Jimmy Mythology's an incredible album, you know versus

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Speaker 1: ten I mean good luck, just that came away. You

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Speaker 1: see my cane shaking at the mention of Last Kiss.

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Speaker 1: My al on right now, I would get off my

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Speaker 1: dentures just felt clean out of my mouth. At that. Well, well, Sunny,

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Speaker 1: take a seat on my lap, because we're gonna teach me.

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Speaker 1: Teach me in a little grunge history for you. Let's

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Speaker 1: dive into this mess. Okay, Nirvana, we'll start with them.

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Speaker 1: They form seven, put out their first record in nine

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Speaker 1: It's called Bleach. It's on the Subpop label sub Pop,

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Speaker 1: of course, the label most associated with the early kind

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Speaker 1: of days of grunge in music in Seattle. And then

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Speaker 1: the year after that they hire a guy named Dave Girl.

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Speaker 1: Have you heard of Dave Girl? Dave Girl, you have,

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Speaker 1: I've never interview Dave I'd love to be interview Dave

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Speaker 1: Girls sometimes to teach you about that. The band that

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Speaker 1: he was there before the Food Fighters, was Nirvana. He

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Speaker 1: joins Nirvana and they become the sort of Nirvana of

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Speaker 1: myth at that point, and he joins in time for

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Speaker 1: the recording of never Mind, which of course comes out

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Speaker 1: in September, proceeds to take over the culture a decent.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty solid kind of you know I record. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that becomes sort of a mythic album. It seems like

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Speaker 1: in the moment like it's one of those records that

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Speaker 1: people are talking about. There's a symbolic thing that happens

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Speaker 1: at the end of nineteen one, where Michael Jackson's Dangerous

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Speaker 1: is like the number one record in the country, and

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Speaker 1: then it's supplanted by Nevermind. And again that's like this

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Speaker 1: symbolic passing up the torch moment from sort of imperialist

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Speaker 1: pop music, dominant forces of mainstream culture being overthrown by

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Speaker 1: this upstart underground band that is transforming the culture. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want to sound like some gen x documentary here,

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Speaker 1: because this is a cliche of documentaries, but genuinely a

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Speaker 1: transformative record, a record that ushers in all these other bands,

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Speaker 1: all this underground culture, and really the nineties as we

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Speaker 1: know them kind of begin at that moment. Ask your

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Speaker 1: question as somebody I I don't remember the first time

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Speaker 1: I heard never Mind. It's just one of those things

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Speaker 1: that just always sort of to me. I was gonna

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Speaker 1: ask you, what was that like for you? I remember

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Speaker 1: hearing smells like teen spirit. I was at home. I

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Speaker 1: was at home for lunch from eighth grade went home

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Speaker 1: for lunch. I went home. I lived in a small town.

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Speaker 1: You could you could go home for lunch. I was

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Speaker 1: also a nerd, so I had no one to sit

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Speaker 1: with that lunch. So I was in the target audience

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Speaker 1: for a record like never Mind, and I turned on

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Speaker 1: the TV and there's this video. It's like a PEP

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Speaker 1: rally at a school, but it's like a Pep rally

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Speaker 1: from hell. And you have this blonde guy mumbling lyrics

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Speaker 1: that you can't understand, and then he hits the chorus

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Speaker 1: and he's screaming and like the drummer's going crazy, and

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking, like this was the novelty song, Like

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Speaker 1: it seemed like such a weird song to see on

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Speaker 1: MTV because at that point, like the only rock bands

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Speaker 1: you saw on MTV were like Guns and Roses, Motley, Crewe, Poison,

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Speaker 1: all these guys from Los Angeles who looked amazing, and

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Speaker 1: you know, we're getting chicks and like doing drugs and

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Speaker 1: like that's what a rock star was, and like these

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Speaker 1: guys clearly were not rock stars. They were losers, like

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Speaker 1: they were outsiders, and there was like, man, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I liked this song, but I can't take

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Speaker 1: my eyes off of it. And then, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how many times it took me for me

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Speaker 1: to play that video because it was one of those

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Speaker 1: videos that just seemed to be everywhere instantly, and I

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Speaker 1: was too young to know about Bleach, but Bleach I

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Speaker 1: kind of primed the pump I think in the underground

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Speaker 1: for never Mind and never Mind just kind of blew

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Speaker 1: them up. And I think people that were in the

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Speaker 1: know knew about Nirvana. But I lived in a small

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Speaker 1: town in the Midwest, not really any independent record stores,

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Speaker 1: no real kind of college radio to speak of, So

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Speaker 1: I was like a sheltered kid, and this was like

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Speaker 1: kicking the door down to a world that I had

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Speaker 1: no idea existed. And it's really hard to talk about

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Speaker 1: this stuff again without sounding like the most generic gen

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Speaker 1: X documentary ever, because all these things are now cliches.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've heard this spield that I'm giving right

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Speaker 1: now a million times, and there's probably people listening to

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Speaker 1: this gone yeah, yeah, yeah, Like okay, I've heard this

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Speaker 1: from you and other graying beard dudes many many times.

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Speaker 1: All I can say is that I'm telling the truth,

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Speaker 1: Like that's what it felt like. It was amazing. I

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Speaker 1: was the perfect age for that to happen, and I'm

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Speaker 1: really glad I was. I was fourteen. I had just

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Speaker 1: turned fourteen when that record comes out. So anyway, that's Nirvana,

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Speaker 1: big big band. Let's go to the Pearl Jam. Side

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam, they have their roots in a band called

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Speaker 1: Mother Love Bone. Okay. Mother Love Bone is this sort

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Speaker 1: of glamy rock band that was in Seattle that was

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Speaker 1: like sort of a thinking man's hair metal band essentially,

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Speaker 1: like sort of like an alternative rock hair metal band

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Speaker 1: in the same way that like Jane's Addiction was at

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Speaker 1: that time. And the core of that band, the musical core,

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Speaker 1: is a guitarist named Stone Gossard and a bass player

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Speaker 1: called Jeff Ament or maybe it's a meant. I've never

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Speaker 1: been able to pronounce his name correctly, but it's something

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Speaker 1: like that. The lead singer of Mother Love Bone passes away,

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Speaker 1: Andrew Wood, of a drug overdose. So Stone and Jeff

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Speaker 1: are like screwed. They think their chances to have a

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Speaker 1: big music career over but they continue to write songs together.

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Speaker 1: They hook up with this guy that they know locally

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Speaker 1: named Mike McCready, who wears many blouses and and do rags,

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Speaker 1: kind of looks like Stevie Rayvan at that time, kind

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Speaker 1: of a bluesy type guitar player, or maybe like Richie

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Speaker 1: Sambora little Sambora asked Sambora, and you know, they started

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Speaker 1: making music together and they're looking for a lead singer,

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Speaker 1: and they hear about this guy who lives in San Diego,

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Speaker 1: is a surfer. I think he was working at a

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Speaker 1: gas station at the time. Name is Edward Vetter. He

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Speaker 1: gets up demo tape of this. I think Jack Irons,

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Speaker 1: the drummer from Red had Chili Peppers and later joined

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam later on. I think he was the one

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Speaker 1: that kind of hooked up the Pearl Jam guys with

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Speaker 1: Eddie Vetter. But he records vocals on this demo tape

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Speaker 1: and it turns out to be these iconic songs on

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Speaker 1: that tape, songs like a live other songs that are

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Speaker 1: classics that ended up on an album called Ten, which

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Speaker 1: came out in August, couple of weeks before never Mind,

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Speaker 1: And unlike never Mind, Ten doesn't immediately take over the culture.

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Speaker 1: Kind of takes a while for that to take hold.

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Speaker 1: But by the end of two Pearl Jam is starting

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Speaker 1: to kind of overshadow Nirvana at that point. And I

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Speaker 1: know at my school around this time, because you know,

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam they had Ten, which ended up just being

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Speaker 1: a g enormous record. Do you Know ten? You Know ten?

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Speaker 1: And the Temple of the Dog, which also comes out

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Speaker 1: at this time. The supergroup with Chris Cornell Alright p

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Speaker 1: and some other guys from Sound Garden Matt Cameron who

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Speaker 1: later joined Pearl Jam as well as the Pearl Jam

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Speaker 1: guys is a supergroup record. So that's a big record.

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam ten is a big record. The singles soundtrack

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Speaker 1: the movie singles the Cameron Crow movie that comes out

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Speaker 1: in ninety two. That's a big hit. So Pearl Jams everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And Kurt Cobain of course notices this. And like Pearl Jam,

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Speaker 1: unlike Nirvana, they didn't have roots in the eighties underground scene.

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Speaker 1: They were a new band. They were kind of an

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Speaker 1: upstart band. People are starting to ask Kurt Cobain about

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam and he starts giving interviews, and he was

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Speaker 1: not very charitable to Pearl Jam. For instance, there's an

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Speaker 1: interview in Chicago Tribune from two where he says, I

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Speaker 1: find it offensive to be lumped in with bands like

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam. Then he said that, gives another interview where

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Speaker 1: he calls Pearl Jam quote a corporate alternative and cock

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Speaker 1: rock fusion, I'll say that again, a corporate alternative and

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Speaker 1: cock rock fusion, which sounds like a lost Nirvana album title.

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Speaker 1: Kind of could be, could definitely be. And then there's

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Speaker 1: an another interview in Rolling Stone where Kurt Cobain accuses

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam of jumping on the alternative bandwagon. This is

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Speaker 1: all happening in It's in the wake Up never Mind.

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Speaker 1: Never Mind is still selling a lot of records. Nirvana

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Speaker 1: is still a really big band, but the sort of

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Speaker 1: momentum from all these things happening with Pearl Jam are

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Speaker 1: really kind of getting big. And there's even like a

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Speaker 1: quote from Kurt Cobain's own journals, like Cobain, even when

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Speaker 1: he's not talking to a reporter, he's still thinking about

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Speaker 1: Pearl Jam, thinking about how much I hate Pearl Jam.

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Speaker 1: And he writes in his journals that he wishes that

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Speaker 1: Nirvana could be erased from their association with Pearl Jam.

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Speaker 1: And that's pretty damning. I mean. There have been theories,

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Speaker 1: especially one from Kurt Cobain's biographer, Charles Cross wrote Heavier

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Speaker 1: than Heaven, where that he started that Kurt started talking

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Speaker 1: about the Pearl Jam rivalry and just started trashing them

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Speaker 1: interviews to basically throw journalists off the scent of asking

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Speaker 1: him about his own personal problems. This journals are starting

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Speaker 1: ask him about, you know, drug addiction at that point

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Speaker 1: and and things like that, and basically to throw red

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Speaker 1: meat at a rap a dogs chasing them, which I

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Speaker 1: gotta say, if that was the strategy didn't work because

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Speaker 1: people were still doing that. There was the famous Lynn

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Speaker 1: Hirshberg profile and Vanity Fair that was more targeted to corner,

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Speaker 1: but it was definitely some residual damage was done to

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Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain in that we're gonna take a quick break

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Speaker 1: to get a word from our sponsor before we get

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Speaker 1: to more rivals. This is all building up to the

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Speaker 1: Video Music Awards, which I had to say, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think when you think about great events in American history,

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Speaker 1: obviously the moon landing, the moon landing at the Senate

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Speaker 1: Decoration of Independence, and then you have the MTV Video

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Speaker 1: of Music Awards, just an incredible assemblage of nineties rock stars.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've got guns and roses. Is that when

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Speaker 1: the fight happened with with guns and roses? Or was that? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a different story. At some point, we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about guns and Roses in Nirvana because very busy m

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Speaker 1: is for Nirvana exactly because you had, because you'd Axel

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Speaker 1: and Kurt almost coming to blows backstage, Chris and his

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Speaker 1: base coming to blows. I believe too that the one

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Speaker 1: exactly Chris novoselica hit in the face while they played

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Speaker 1: um in Bloom. But no, while they played Lithium on stage.

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Speaker 1: You had you had Axel, you had your guns and

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Speaker 1: Roses and Nelton John playing November Rain of per fourmants

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Speaker 1: that lasted approximately fourteen hours exactly. But keep it going forever,

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Speaker 1: I mean not long. You could never make that song

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Speaker 1: long enough as far as I'm concerned. Just a beautiful

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Speaker 1: piece of music. Um, you have end Vogue. There, you

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Speaker 1: have Brian Adams, you have you two coming in via

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Speaker 1: satellite and like Dana Carvey as Garth Algar playing drums

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Speaker 1: on even better than the real thing. And if you

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Speaker 1: remember that, I don't remember that. Wow, I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: just the greatest hits album of like awesome award show

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Speaker 1: performances on this show, but maybe the most important event

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Speaker 1: other than the Axle Kurt fight, which wasn't broadcast. I

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Speaker 1: believe that what you're about to say this was a

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Speaker 1: broadcast either. No, there was a moment that happened backstage

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Speaker 1: while Eric Clapton is on stage playing Tears in Heaven,

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Speaker 1: the lovely tribute that he wrote for his for his

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Speaker 1: late son, and Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vetter, and I

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Speaker 1: believe Courtney love our backstage, and I think it's Courtney

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Speaker 1: love like pushes Kurt and Eddie together and they start dancing,

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Speaker 1: like slow dancing with each other, which I feel like

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Speaker 1: they're probably taking the piss out of Eric class to

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Speaker 1: dancing here. I don't think they genuinely felt moved by

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Speaker 1: this song, which is it's a lovely song. I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna diss Deers in Heaven. I feel a lot of

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Speaker 1: people dissed Tears in Heaven. You're gonna be silent, It's okay,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to. I'll go on this line by myself. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a great sign, a lovely soft rock favorite.

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Speaker 1: They're dancing to it, and this is a moment that

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Speaker 1: actually ends up being immortalized. I feel like someone who's

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Speaker 1: maybe shooting on video or something on a cam qorder

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Speaker 1: and the general public doesn't actually see this moment until

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Speaker 1: twenty years later in the Cameron Crow documentary Pearl Jam twenty,

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Speaker 1: which came out in two thousand and eleven, and this

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Speaker 1: clip was kind of like the way that they sold

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Speaker 1: this documentary. It was kind of like one of the

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Speaker 1: most famous because they've never been this holy Grail moment

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Speaker 1: that fans had talked about, and at least Pearl Jam

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Speaker 1: fans had talked about exactly. And you know, when this

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Speaker 1: movie came out, it was presented as you know, this

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Speaker 1: this moment, this scene was presented as they were Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is like we're this is like gorbat Choff and Reagan,

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Speaker 1: you know, shaking hands in the eighties at the summit,

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Speaker 1: you know, like we're signing a nuclear disarmament deal, but

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Speaker 1: for rock stars, you know, like we have come together.

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Speaker 1: And there's this part in the movie where Eddie Betters

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Speaker 1: talking about this and he's talking about how he's imagining

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Speaker 1: like if Kirko Bank were still alive, and he's like,

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Speaker 1: I think he would have said he did. Okay, man,

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Speaker 1: it's this beautiful fantasy around a campfire, a beautiful moment

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Speaker 1: it and it's well. Eddie Vetter did another interview right

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Speaker 1: after Kurt Cobain died with Spin where we talked about

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Speaker 1: wait no, wait, the campfire the documentary isn't the documentary

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Speaker 1: because there's another story. Right after Kurt Cobain died that

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Speaker 1: that Eddie Better talked to Craig Marks of Spin where

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Speaker 1: he said, like around and play some stupid songs. I

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Speaker 1: want to hang out. I wish we could just hung out, man,

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Speaker 1: and like you know, jammed and like, you know, talked

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Speaker 1: about how hard it is, you know, this this rock

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Speaker 1: star life, and then yeah, and the Pearl Jam twenty

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Speaker 1: talks about like, man, like whenever I have a campfire,

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Speaker 1: would be nice if Kurt Cobain were here and we

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Speaker 1: could just talk about everything. But if you did see me,

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Speaker 1: you'd say you're okay, You're okay, kid. Which is interesting

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Speaker 1: because because as they're slow dancing, Kurt tells him something,

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Speaker 1: Eddie something, Why does he tell exactly? And you know, again, like, man,

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Speaker 1: that's such a great scene in Pearl Jam twenty, by

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Speaker 1: the way, and like I don't doubt Eddie Vetter's sincerity.

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Speaker 1: I think he like because the thing about this, this

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Speaker 1: whole thing, you know, I think one thing that's been

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Speaker 1: consistent so far is that there's nothing coming from Pearl

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Speaker 1: Jam side. Eddie Vetter never Eddie. Eddie Vetterer never said

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Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain is a punk ass, you know, poser man,

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Speaker 1: like tell him to get off my ship. Like he

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Speaker 1: never said that. It was always Kurt Cobain dissing Pearl Jam,

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Speaker 1: and Pearl Jam never said anything about Nirvana ever, and

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Speaker 1: after Kurt Cobain died, whenever Eddie Vetter would talk about

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Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, it was always very respectful and

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Speaker 1: he loved and I think he genuinely loved Nirvana. I

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Speaker 1: think he respected them. I think he recognized that. Like

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Speaker 1: if not for Nirvana's success, I don't know if we

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Speaker 1: would have had the career that we did in Pearl Jam.

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Speaker 1: Like they said that, that's true, always giving it up,

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Speaker 1: given dap dapping up Kurt Cobain whenever he can, but

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Speaker 1: also kind of creating this narrative that, yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: the rivalry between Pearl Jam and Nirvana wasn't genuine, that

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Speaker 1: was press create That's what they all said, and laid

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Speaker 1: all this revisionism about creative but if it were real,

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Speaker 1: they made up at the MTV Video Music Awards and

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Speaker 1: it was all good. However, this idea of this narrative

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Speaker 1: that's very cozy and warm and I wish we're true,

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Speaker 1: it falls apart when you actually read Kirk Cobain's own words, like,

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Speaker 1: that's the problem with this theory. As their arms were

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Speaker 1: around each other dancing the tears in heaven, yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: so it looked in the Eddie's eyes. Yeah, well yeah,

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Speaker 1: because Kirk Cobain, he doesn't interview with Michael Azarrod. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this was Income As You Are,

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Speaker 1: which is the book that Azarrod wrote about Nirvana and

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Speaker 1: ninety three, or if this came out later, but he

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Speaker 1: talked about this slow dance with Eddie Vedder and this

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Speaker 1: is what he said. Quote. I stared into his eyes

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Speaker 1: and I told him that I thought he was a

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Speaker 1: respectable human. So far, so good, A bare minimum compliment,

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Speaker 1: but you know your compliment. You're respectable person with human

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Speaker 1: blood cells and hair and car based life, your carbon

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Speaker 1: based life form. And I did tell him straight out

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Speaker 1: that I still think his band sucks. Left turned while

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Speaker 1: you're while you're slow dancing kind of a weird, you know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they were still dancing at this point,

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Speaker 1: or if they kind of stopped and I said, after

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Speaker 1: watching you perform, I realized that you are a person

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Speaker 1: that does have some passion. It's not a fully contrived thing.

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Speaker 1: There are plenty of other more evil people out in

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Speaker 1: the world than him, and he doesn't deserve to be

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Speaker 1: scapegoated like that end quote. So you know, let's review

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Speaker 1: he's saying, basically, uh, your band sucks, but you know

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Speaker 1: it's it's cute that you care. Yeah, it's cute that

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Speaker 1: you care, and it's not totally bullshit. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: like bullshit. You know, it's like contrived. And look, there

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Speaker 1: are way worse people than you in the world, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can do way worse than you. So

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna lay off of you. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: leave you alone. Yeah, your band sucks, but you know

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Speaker 1: it's okay, You're you're an okay dude. But then he

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Speaker 1: didn't leave, he didn't lay off a pearl jam after that. Well,

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Speaker 1: he always been trying to be diplomatic after that, but

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Speaker 1: always try. I know, it's like, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how hard he actually was trying, but he kind

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Speaker 1: of puts up the appearance that he's trying to be

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Speaker 1: nice to Pearl Jam, but you know he Kirk Cobain

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Speaker 1: does another interview with Rolling Stone, talking to David Frick

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Speaker 1: for a cover story that runs three months before Kurt

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Speaker 1: Cobain died, so this would have been like early and

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Speaker 1: he says, quote, one of the things I've learned is

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Speaker 1: that slagging off people just doesn't do me any good.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't met Eddie at the time. It was my fault.

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Speaker 1: I should have been slagging off the record company instead

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Speaker 1: of them. They were marketed, not probably against their will,

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Speaker 1: but without them realizing that they were being pushed into

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Speaker 1: the grunge bandwagon. So again, like, I don't blame Eddie

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Speaker 1: Better for Pearl Jam being terrible. I blame the record

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Speaker 1: company for Pearl Jam being terrible. And uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: they probably didn't realize that they were being marketed as

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Speaker 1: a sellout band. I mean, they were, obviously, but it's

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Speaker 1: not their fault. That's a translation there, the slightly less

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Speaker 1: charitable translation. And then Frick asks him in the follow

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Speaker 1: up question like if he feels any empathy for Pearl Jam,

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Speaker 1: and Cobain says, quote, yeah, I do. Now he could

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Speaker 1: have stopped there. I could have just said, yeah, I do, right,

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Speaker 1: that sounds pretty good. Hey, Kurt, do you feel empathy

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Speaker 1: for Pearl Jam? Yeah? Next question, but no, he he

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Speaker 1: can't resist getting one last job, and he says, except,

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that they didn't go out of their

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Speaker 1: way to challenge their audience as much as we did

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Speaker 1: with this record. They're a safe rock band. There are

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Speaker 1: pleasant rock band that everyone likes. God, I've had much

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Speaker 1: better quotes in my head about this. I love that moment.

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Speaker 1: I love that thing in the moment where he's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I can see what this is gonna look, I can thread.

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Speaker 1: It's like I've already I'm screwed already, one of the

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Speaker 1: better backwards and backhanded compliments, and it's like, why did

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Speaker 1: I just stop at yeah I do? Why did I

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Speaker 1: have to add this? This is just going to create

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Speaker 1: more headaches for me. So the record at the time,

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Speaker 1: by the way, in Utero. Yeah exactly, so yeah ninety three. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In September of eighty three, Nirvana put out in Utero,

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Speaker 1: which are not to be their final studio record. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the great albums of the nineties, one

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Speaker 1: of the greatest albums of all time. I think that's

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Speaker 1: just such a classic masterpiece record. That record comes out,

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Speaker 1: it sells about a hundred eighty thousand copies in its

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Speaker 1: first week, which is really impressive when you consider the

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Speaker 1: fact that Kurt Cobain insisted on putting fetuses all over

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Speaker 1: the back cover of that record. So Walmart and and

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Speaker 1: and Kmart, I believe, like refused to sell the record.

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Speaker 1: So two of the biggest retailers in America weren't selling

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Speaker 1: in Utero, and you feel like if they had been

404
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Speaker 1: selling it, maybe that album sells two or three times

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Speaker 1: more records. I mean, like there's a lot of places

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Speaker 1: in the country we can't even buy it at that point.

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Speaker 1: About a month later, Pearl Jam puts out Versus. That

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Speaker 1: album sells about nine fifty thou copies in about five days, so,

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Speaker 1: which is a record years. So I think that's about

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Speaker 1: five times more than when in Utero is sold. So

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Speaker 1: by ninety three, it is clear they're getting pummeled, and

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Speaker 1: without question, I think at that point Pearl Jam is

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Speaker 1: the biggest rock band in the world and one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest rock bands ever. For about two or three years,

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Speaker 1: because Vitology, which came after Versus, I think sold about

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Speaker 1: the same number of copies in its first week, you know,

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Speaker 1: about nine hundred thousand copies. And these are numbers by

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Speaker 1: the way that um, it's kind of impossible to even

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Speaker 1: conceive of a rock band being that successful in a

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Speaker 1: modern context. I mean, I think in terms of like

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Speaker 1: rock bands, I mean, maybe you could talk about Led

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Speaker 1: Zeppelin in the seventies. Certainly the Beatles sold prodigious months

423
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: of records. A little bit later on Limp Biscuit actually

424
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: was also just the sales Jugger not on like chocolate

425
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: chocolate starfish in the hot dog flavored water. I think

426
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: sold like a million copies in one week, which I

427
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 1: think is still a record for a rock band. So

428
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: I'm glad that Olympus gets placed in the history books.

429
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, the great the great rock bands,

430
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, Zeppelin, Pearl Jam and Olympiscuit, that's the lineage.

431
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: But just absurdly successful at that point. And you know,

432
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: it's interesting, what what's this funny O. Kurt, who you

433
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 1: know was always portrayed a sort of anti fame, you know,

434
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: turning his back on it, was very aware of this

435
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: and we're aware of the sales subscripancy and was apparently

436
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: very annoyed by even Danny Goldberg's book, Uh, Serving the

437
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: Servants came out earliest year. He says, he, you know,

438
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 1: we got a call from Kurt saying, like, why aren't

439
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: our videos being played in mtvs? Do we piss someone

440
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 1: off there? What's what's going on? And uh when Pearl

441
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: Jam got the cover of Time magazine, Uh, Coldey Level

442
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: later said that he was really annoyed by that, like,

443
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: really really pissed him off too. So I mean, despite

444
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: all of the you know, the views of him really

445
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: not you know, caring about playing the fame game, I mean,

446
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: this definitely did get to him. And whether or not

447
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: it was just because he was so annoyed by by

448
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: Pearl Jam. Uh, you know, if it was somebody else,

449
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, maybe he wouldn't have I mean, I can't

450
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: imagine a scenario like where he would have liked any

451
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: band that was capable of selling that many records. I mean,

452
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: you're right to me, that's like one of the most

453
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: fascinating contradictions about Kurt Copain because he is looked at

454
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: and with justification as being this sort of anti rock

455
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 1: start a lot of ways that he didn't want to

456
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: be looked at in the same way that we look

457
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: at other rock stars. At the same time, he was

458
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: a student of rock stardom. He understood like what made

459
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: people popular, and he steered Nirvana very consciously in a

460
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: direction that sort of enabled them to become as successful

461
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: as they did. I mean, if they wanted to just

462
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: being underground bandy, they first of all, you don't hire

463
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: Dave Growl like a drummer of that caliber. You keep

464
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: hiring the kinds of drummers that they had before, which

465
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: were you know, very fine kind of garage rock band guys,

466
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: but like, we're not gonna hit with the kind of

467
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: precision and like arena rock power of a Dave Growl.

468
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: And then you don't like hire Butch Vig to make

469
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: a record as just beautiful soundings never Mind, like just

470
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: the perfect guitar, a perfect car stereo FM rock record.

471
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: And clearly, you know, Cobain had some misgivings about never

472
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: Mind in the aftermath, I mean in Utero, you know,

473
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: sort of a reaction against the sound of that record.

474
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,959
Speaker 1: And there was of course so much hype about in

475
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: Utero leading up to it that this was like an

476
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: unlistenable record, that it was like pouring acid into your

477
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: ear drums, and that like Steve Albany had like made

478
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: them sound like, you know, a bunch of like crazy

479
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: bikers straight you know, hitting chains against like a chainsaw

480
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: or something, you know, which none of that really proved

481
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: to be true. I mean, it's like a loud, abrasive

482
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: kind of gregarious rock record, but like heart Shaped Box

483
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: and even the song raped Me, catchy song, very melodic,

484
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: you know, you know, as provocative as some of those

485
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 1: lyrics are. Well, I mean, let me ask you all

486
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: the accusations that Kurt is making, you know, is hurling

487
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: at Pearl Jam, could you say that all those same

488
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: things could be said about Kurt and Nirvana about how

489
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, willingly signing up? I mean I feel like,

490
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that Dave later said, they've girl

491
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: always said, you know, we have, we signed the paperwork.

492
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't do it with a gun to

493
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: our head. Well, I mean I do wonder to what degree,

494
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: like when he calls them like a safe mainstream band,

495
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: how much of that is just reacting to the sales

496
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: disparity between in utero in verses, and I think certainly

497
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: just like a defensive Yeah, I mean, and you know,

498
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: and there's some truth in and what he's saying, and

499
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: that like Pearl Jam did kind of follow the prototypical

500
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: like look of like an arena rock band. I mean

501
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: my feeling on Pearl Jam. And I mean this as

502
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: a compliment because I love Pearl Jam, but I always

503
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: felt like they had the mind of Fugazi in the

504
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: body of Errol Smith. You know, where if you could

505
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 1: have had a swaggering arena rock band that actually had

506
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: some integrity and like cared about like how they conducted

507
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: their business, like that's that's basically Pearl Jam. And you

508
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: have a guy like Eddie Vetter, who is just cut

509
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: from the cloth of like Roger Daltrey and like, you

510
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: know these sort of like huge voice arena rock singers.

511
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: Is a very good looking guy, although Kurt Cobain is

512
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: also a great looking guy. I mean, I always thought

513
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: it was funny when people complain about this era of music,

514
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: would they say, like, well, this is the era that

515
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: rock stars died. There's no rock stars, Like grunge kind

516
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: of kicked out the traditional rock star. And I always

517
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: feel like, who's a better rock star than Kurt Cobain,

518
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: Like who looks better than him, who's like more iconic

519
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: than him, or like someone like Eddie Vetter, like that's

520
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: he's like he's like out of a comic book of

521
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: like of rock stars, not to mention people like Chris

522
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: Cornell and Courtney Love and p J. Harvey and Trent

523
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 1: Restner and Billy Corgan all these larger than life figures

524
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: that came out of alternative rock at that time. But

525
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: I digress. I'm gonna that's this. This is my old

526
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: man jaas guy talking about nineties rock stars. But um,

527
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: kind of getting back to to Nirvana. You know whether

528
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: that was sort of Cobain being defensive about his own

529
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: sort of mainstream rock status with that, Yeah, I wouldn't.

530
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: There probably was a little projection with that, I think

531
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: on some level. I also think though that I also

532
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: wonder to what degree that criticism subsequently influenced Pearl Jam's

533
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: next couple of records, Because you get to Vitology and

534
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: there are some just incredible, you know, traditional rock songs

535
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: on there. You have Corduroy on there, you have like

536
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: less exit and in more pality, But then you have

537
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: like Eddie Vetter strapping on an accordion and playing the

538
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: song Bugs, you know, which is like this totally weird

539
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: song that's really weirder than anything on in Utero really,

540
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: you know, or you have like that sound collage at

541
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: the end of the record, that hate Foxyhole Mama song,

542
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: which I don't think anyone in Pearl Jam has ever

543
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: listened to from the beginning to add the Revolution number

544
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: nine exactly, like, no one listens to that song. But

545
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: I know I appreciate the fact that they did it

546
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: as a gesture. There's many different ways to be unlistenable exactly,

547
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: and Utero is the safe way to be. On my

548
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: It's that's I mean, it's transgressive in its own way.

549
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: But I'm just but you know, Pearl Jam, I think

550
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: I do think that on some level they were responding

551
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: to that criticism when they make a record like that,

552
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, you know, yeah, we've made ten and

553
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: we've made verses and these are sort of like the

554
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: biggest rock records of their era, and there's a lot

555
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: of real catchy radio songs on these albums. But now

556
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: that we're really successful, we're going to take a left

557
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: turn and we're gonna make really we're gonna mix in

558
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: these sort of crazy ideas that we have experimental ideas

559
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: and we're gonna mix it in with sort of our

560
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: standard formula. And then they make a record like No Code,

561
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: which is like sort of really anti commercial. And at

562
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: that point too, they had stopped making music videos. They

563
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: weren't even like touring all that much because they were

564
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: fighting Ticketmaster, you know, which is sort of an anti

565
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: corporate crusade that they went on. That Again, if you

566
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: want to compare Nirvana and Pearl Jam in terms of

567
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: sort of fighting the man, Nirvana never waged a war

568
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: like that, you know, they never fought the music business

569
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: in the same way that Pearl Jam did, like in

570
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: a very overt way. In the mid nineties, they wore

571
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: t shirts on Yeah they said, yeah, like yeah, you know,

572
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: with all due respect to Kurt Cobain, yeah, he wore

573
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: the shirt that said corporate magazine still suck on the

574
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: cover of Rolling Stone. But he's still you know, he's

575
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: on the cover. He had his cake and eate it two.

576
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: You know. I mean, he was able to work at

577
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: both ways there. So I mean, to me, when I

578
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: look at these two bands, I think, ultimately, like what

579
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: you're talking about is the idea of and this is

580
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: such a cliche thing to say again, but like the

581
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: idea of burning out versus fading away, which is like

582
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: sort of the oldest rock cliche that there is, and

583
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: it's a line I believe in. In Kurt's Uh Suicide

584
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: not that well, he quotes the Neil Young song Hey, Hey,

585
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: My My, which is like Neil Young kind of articulated

586
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: that idea in that song it's better to burn out

587
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: than to fade away. But I feel like that idea

588
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: already kind of existed in the ether of rock and

589
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: roll before that, you know, probably starting in the early

590
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: seventies when you had Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendricks and

591
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: Janis Choplin pass away at the age of you know,

592
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: the idea that in rock and roll, is it better

593
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: to like basically extinguish your flame when you're at your peak,

594
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: or is it admirable to try to find a way

595
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: to navigate your way through your art and into middle

596
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: age and survive and survive. And Nirvana and Pearl Jam

597
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: It's such a great metaphor for that because I think,

598
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: to get back to what you were saying at the

599
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: beginning of the episode, I think, now when we think

600
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 1: about Nirvana. You know, they've crossed over I think too,

601
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: other generations more than Pearl Jam has. I think like

602
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: millennials and Generation Z and like you know, probably teenagers

603
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: now are much more likely to get into Nirvana than

604
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: they are like to gravitate to Kurt Cobain as an

605
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: icon than they aren't like Pearl Jam and Eddie Vetter.

606
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: I mean, because it sounds like that's kind of the

607
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: case for you, right, like kind of coming up. They

608
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: never they never diminished, you know. I mean it's the

609
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: kind of thing where it's like, you know, Kirk Cobain

610
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: is always gonna be twenty seven, but like Eddie Vetter

611
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: might be forty or he might be fifty like you.

612
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: And the sample size was smaller too. I mean you say,

613
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: everything Nirvana did was at their peak for them, you know,

614
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: for all tense purposes, whereas Pearl Jam he kind of

615
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: got a little money. These are good then, and they

616
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: lived like a real life and think, yeah, exactly, I

617
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: mean they were real people, which is I mean, now

618
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: that I'm old, there's something that I appreciate a lot

619
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: more about them too, and digging deeper into discography, but yeah, no,

620
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: at that time, it was it was a different sort

621
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: of rock cannon. You know. One thing that we didn't

622
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: talk about too, Like, have you heard that story about

623
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: when Pearl Jam played a show the day that Kurt Cobain,

624
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: the day his body was found. Have you heard that story? Yes, yes,

625
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: the famous the Elevations elevation speech, because you know, they

626
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: were playing a show in Fairfax, Virginia that night and

627
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: Kurt's body was found. I forget what time that was.

628
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was like in the morning

629
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: or like the afternoon, but like they knew about it

630
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: before they went on stage, and like Eddie Vetter later

631
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: didn't interview with the l a times where he talked

632
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: about how he just like trashed his hotel room like immediately,

633
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: which is like kind of like a melodrama at a

634
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: response to that kind of news, But like, again, I

635
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: feel like it was like a genuine thing, you know,

636
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: like you just trashing his room. He said, Then I

637
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: just kind of sat in the rubble, which somehow felt right.

638
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: It felt like my world at the moment. And it's

639
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: interesting because you can hear bootlegs of that show and

640
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: it's not like it's like it's not like they trashed

641
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: the stage on the show. It's it's not even a

642
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: show that you really would know necessarily that like something

643
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: was amiss. When you listen to it, it sounds like

644
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: a pretty kind of standard Pearl Jam show. But then

645
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: Eddie does give the elevation speech towards the end of

646
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: the show or kind of like in the middle of

647
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: the show, and he says, quote, there's a lot of

648
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: space between us tonight. We're not only kind of far,

649
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of elevated. I noticed a little

650
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: more than usual either that where I've gotten taller. I

651
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: don't think it's very good to elevate yourself. That can

652
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: be dangerous sometimes, whether you like it or not. People

653
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: elevate you, you you know, whether you like it or not,

654
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: it's really easy to fall. But I don't think any

655
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: of us would be in this room tonight if it

656
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: weren't for Kurt Copaine. So sort of like a warning

657
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: against fame in that, you know, which was a very

658
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: kind of very Eddy veteran ninety four type lesson to

659
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: take from that whole thing. But yeah, I don't know,

660
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: kind of like what you were saying before, an idea

661
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: of um kind of appreciating Pearl Jam as you get

662
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: older more. I think that's really true, you know, because

663
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: the idea of me like a middle aged rocker isn't

664
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: very appealing when you're a kid, but like you're and

665
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: you're more inclined to gravitate to Nirvana. But now I

666
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: feel like I'm gravitating more to Pearl Jam. Maybe in

667
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: some ways for that reason. Yeah, I mean there is

668
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 1: sort of more of an authenticity there, you feel just

669
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: just you know, as you not only just getting older,

670
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: but just seeing Yeah, I agree with that all right hand.

671
00:35:52,680 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more rivals. We've put some

672
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: of these points already. But like, if you're going to

673
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 1: make like the pro Nirvana argument like over Pearl Jam,

674
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: like what would like what would be the argument there?

675
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: You think? I think you can't argue against them being

676
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: the one who brought grunge to mainstream, brought the underground

677
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: above ground. Really, I mean from a not only musical standpoint,

678
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: but fashion. And it's just if you talk about the nineties,

679
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: you have to talk about Nirvana, and never mind, I

680
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: don't think you necessarily have to talk about Pearl Jam.

681
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: I know they're obviously a wonderful band, but I think

682
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: that Nirvana influenced culture in a way it was a

683
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: lot more broad than the Pearl Jam ever did. Yeah,

684
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know your point about the

685
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: nineties well, no, and certainly terms of like nineties music,

686
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: you'd have to talk about Pearl Jam. But I do

687
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: think you're right in that if you're gonna talk about

688
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: like nineties overall, like the overall sort of cultural arc

689
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 1: or like what happened in that decade, that if you're

690
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: going to talk about a rock band, it would be Nirvana,

691
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: Like they would be the one band that you would

692
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: talk about, in the same way that if you're going

693
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: to talk about the sixties, you talk about Bob Dylan.

694
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: You know, even though there's other great, wonderful singer songwriters

695
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: from that period, Bob Dylan had a significance that went

696
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 1: beyond just music. And that's certainly true of Nirvana, social

697
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: cultural just kind of influencing people, you know, like people

698
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: like Bob Dylan, not just because he made cool records,

699
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: but they feel like he sort of signified something or

700
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: signified a culture, and the same was true of Nirvana.

701
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: And you know, and I and I went on the

702
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: spield earlier in the episode, but It's absolutely true that

703
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: like Nirvana was a transformative band, and they were a

704
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: band that like opened the door to like lots of

705
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: other kinds of music, other kinds of film because of

706
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: the way the media was at that time, a lot

707
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: of people lived in parts of the country where there

708
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: weren't independent record stores, where you had no sort of

709
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: entree into alternative culture. So for a band like Nirvana

710
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: to get on MTV and then to also make it

711
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: possible for like bands like the Butthole Surfers to have

712
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: hit singles, you know, which happened in the nineties, or

713
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: the Meat Puppets, Yeah, it just opened the door to

714
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: all this stuff and it made it accessible to people

715
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: that would have no access to it before that. And

716
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: that was again truly transformative in that decade. So, you know,

717
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: that sort of cultural importance you can't really ascribe to

718
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: any other band. In terms of the pro Pearl Jam argument,

719
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: I would argue that what they've done in their career

720
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: is arguably harder in the long run that like what

721
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: Nirvana did, which is they found a way to survive

722
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: the things that killed Nirvana. You know, they went through

723
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: a period in the mid nineties where and this has

724
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: been well documented, like in that documentary Pearl Jam twenty

725
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: as well as Pearl Jam books. It's kind of part

726
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: of the mythology of the band now. But around the

727
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 1: time of like you know, Vitology and Code, that band

728
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: came very close to imploding, and Eddie Vetter himself was

729
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure. I don't think he My impression

730
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: is that he wasn't necessarily suicidal. I've never heard that,

731
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 1: but that he was very ambivalent about where Pearl Jam

732
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: was at that at that moment, and you look at

733
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: their peers, you know, not just Nirvana, but Sound Garden,

734
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: Alison Chains, like a lot of those big nineties alternative

735
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: grunge bands, they all fell apart by the end of

736
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: the nineties, and many of those people also ended up

737
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: passing away in tragic circumstances. And Pearl Jam is really

738
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: unique and that they didn't, you know, they kept it

739
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: together and they were able to find a way to

740
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: fade away in a graceful way. It's kind of hard

741
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: to say that they faded away when there's still a

742
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: band that they're really one of the only rock bands

743
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: that can play stadiums at this point in their career

744
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: and certainly. You know, they've played stadiums, they play arenas,

745
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: they play huge festivals. They don't have the same kind

746
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: of pop significance that they had. I think Last Kiss,

747
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: that song you mentioned, was like the last sort of

748
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: chart hit, and that was like a ninety nine or so,

749
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: I think. But they found a way to kind of

750
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: conduct themselves in a way that's dignified, you know what

751
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: you would not that's not a word that you would

752
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: apply to many arena rock bands. That's like fifty year

753
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: old rock star. It's not embarrassing himself. He's not trying

754
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: to be anything other than what he is exactly. They're

755
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: not you know, yeah, you know, they're not doing the

756
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: U two thing where they're still trying to be a

757
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: pop band, you know, or trying to reinvent themselves in like,

758
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: you know, to court relevance. They're like, no, we're Pearl Jam.

759
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: We do what we do. You either like it or

760
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: you don't. And there's the point that you had made

761
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: where it seemed like Eddie was somebody who who sort

762
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: of looked forward to getting Well, that's the thing that's

763
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: so striking about Eddie Vetter because at the peak of

764
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: his fame, in in the nineties, like when you know,

765
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: Shannon Doherty like wanted to go out with Eddie Vetter

766
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: and like all these people wanted to like be with him.

767
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: He didn't seem all that happy. But now that he's

768
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: in his fifties, he seems to have aged into the

769
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: rock star that he always wanted to be, you know,

770
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: because like when he was in his twenties and early thirties,

771
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 1: he gravitated to like Neil Young and like Mike Watt

772
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: and Pete Townsend like these you know, life for musicians

773
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: who had been around the block many times. And he

774
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: always got the sense from him that he wished that

775
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: he could have more miles on the tires, you know,

776
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: that he could be what that he could kind of

777
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: almost you know that he could have been like a

778
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: blue singer or something, you know what I mean, like

779
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 1: kind of like like a lot of the young blue

780
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: singers like they want to be older, so they had

781
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: that kind of weathered quality to their voice, or that

782
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: they had the gravitas of like an older musician. And

783
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: you always feel like Eddie Better yearned for that as

784
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: a younger man, and now he has it, you know,

785
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: Now he is like the Pete Townsend for like, younger

786
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: musicians that would still kind of look up to bands

787
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: in that classic rock lineage. And it's really inspiring. You know.

788
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that, you know, as much as I

789
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: left Kurt Cobain in Nirvana, you know, it's really nice

790
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 1: to have the counter example of someone who was able

791
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: to weather that storm, you know that that that's tumultuous

792
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: storm of your twenties and and pull through, you know, um,

793
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: and that is inspiring, you know for all of us

794
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: as we get older. You know, I think we all

795
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: aspire to the kind of life, you know, where you

796
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: can get older and and still be happy, you know,

797
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: as you get in the middle age and beyond. So

798
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: that seems to be how they fit together ultimately, Pearl

799
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: Jam and Nirvana. You know, it's kind of like two

800
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: sides of the same coin in a way. Or here's

801
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: the classic hypothetical. What do you think Kurt would have

802
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: been like had he lived? What do you think the

803
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: Nirvana trajectory would have been, and what their relationship would

804
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: have been. I think Nirvana would have probably broken up

805
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: pretty I think if they had stayed together, I think

806
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: they would have broken up because I think it just

807
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: seemed like things weren't very good in that band, and

808
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: that I think Kurt Cobain probably would have wanted to

809
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: do his own thing, if you, like Dave Role eventually

810
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: would have wanted to launch a side project, you know,

811
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: food Fighters are I mean, it's interesting to think about,

812
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: like whether like those early food Fighter songs would have

813
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: ended up on Nirvana records. You know, like if this

814
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: is a call would have been the Dave Groll track,

815
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: Like like he would have been like George Harrison getting

816
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: like two songs on a Nirvana record, and like this

817
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 1: is a call and alone and easy Target or something

818
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: end up on the next Nirvana record. Or if Kurt

819
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: Cobain would have just said, screw that noise, I write

820
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: the songs in Nirvana, you can do a side project,

821
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: because I mean, Dave Grohl, I can't imagine that he

822
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: just would have been the drummer in a band forever,

823
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: So I think they probably would have broken up. I

824
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: think Kabay would have probably done his own thing. And

825
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: I just wonder if he would have like just been

826
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: sort of like an esoteric solo artist more than like

827
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: a guy that courted mainstream acceptance. Maybe he would have

828
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: been like maybe he would have records that sounded like

829
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: sonic Youth, like they're more kind of already records that

830
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: they made in the late nineties and early two thousand's.

831
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: I wish I could have found out. I wish we

832
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: could have heard those records. That would have been amazing

833
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: to have heard Kurt Comain as an older man and

834
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: to see how he would have progressed. But I think

835
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: Nirvana would have been finished either way, I really do.

836
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: But who knows. One of the mysteries of history right there,

837
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: I think. On that note, I'm gonna start crying here

838
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: talking about my grunge, rocky youth. But I hope you

839
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this journey into the nineties Jordan's I

840
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: absolutely love that. Thank you. I learned, I learned a lot,

841
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: and we had a good time. We did had a

842
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: good time. Alright, guys, Well, hey, thanks to everyone for listening.

843
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: We'll be back again next week with more Rivals. Take Care.

844
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of My Heart Radio Get. The

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Speaker 1: producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers

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Speaker 1: are Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan's Run Talk.

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Speaker 1: I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please

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Speaker 1: subscribe to leave us a review. For more podcast for

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Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows