1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero I am Akshatrati. This week the cult 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: of Fire. On May third, twenty sixteen, a wildfire broke 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: out in the boreal forests of sub Arctic Canada, some 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: six hundred miles north of the US border. Forest fires 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: are not uncommon here, but this one was different. The 6 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: day it broke out, the temperature was several degrees hotter 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: than the previous record, and thus the fire spread rapidly. 8 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: Soon it had engulfed the city of Fort McMurray in 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: the province of Alberta. The fire stood out for its 10 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: size and its speed, but it interested writer John Valiant 11 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: for another reason. Its location. Fort McMurray is a company town. 12 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: At its heart is the oil industry. You might not 13 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: have heard of tarsan's oil or bitumen before, but it's 14 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: a sticky, viscous substance that requires extremely energy intensive steps 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: to turn into usable crude oil. Canada sells millions of 16 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: barrels of this stuff every day. The story of how 17 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: fossil fuel extraction made Fort McMurray, and how a fire, 18 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: supercharged by the effects of global warming nearly destroyed it, 19 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: is the subject of John's latest book, Fire Weather is 20 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: a best seller and Pulitzer finalist. It's a deeply reported 21 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: work of nonfiction that taps into some of the contradictions 22 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: of the way we live today. I got to talk 23 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: to John about it a few weeks ago at the 24 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: Charleston Festival, near Lewis in the English countryside. As we'll 25 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: hear on this episode, the fire at the heart of 26 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: the story is a thing of awe and terror, but 27 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: it's also a distinctly man made disaster. When I read 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: Fire Weather, I was struck by the sheer force it 29 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: takes to extract bitchumen. Massive machinery, huge shovels, an enormous 30 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: amount of energy, and human willpower, all of which in 31 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: this story set the stage for a great deal of destruction. 32 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: When I spoke with John, I asked him to begin 33 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: our conversation by reading a passage from his book that 34 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: describes just how bitchumen is extracted from the Canadian earth. 35 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 2: According to Oil Sands Magazine, a typical oil sands deposit 36 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: of the cond beneath Fort McMurray contains about ten percent bitsumen, 37 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 2: five percent water, and eighty five percent solids. Those solids 38 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 2: are principally quartzite. One of the hardest minerals in the world. 39 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: Shortsite's sand is extraordinarily abrasive, and it is hell on machinery, shovels, 40 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: dump truck boxes, and pipelines, not to mention the paint 41 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: job on your truck and your kitchen floor. The process 42 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: of excavating, separating, and then upgrading this pavement like substance 43 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: involves elements of strip mining, rock crushing, and steam cleaning, 44 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: the petrochemical equivalent to squeezing blood from stones. Because of this, 45 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: there's really no comparison between the petroleum industry in northern 46 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: Alberta and the petroleum industries in Texas, Saudi Arabia, or 47 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: any other place on or offshore where oil is drawn 48 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: from the earth by conventional means. A bitchumin mine is 49 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: not a place you would let your child play, but 50 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: it's excavated using equipment familiar to any four year old 51 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: conversant in Tonka technology and with a similar grandiosity of ambition. 52 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: In order to access the bitumen, the forest above it 53 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: must first be removed. In industry parlance, this living material 54 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: is referred to as overburdened, and the machine used to 55 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: scrape it off is a Caterpillar D eleven bulldozer. The 56 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: D eleven weighs more than one hundred tons and its 57 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: blade is twenty two feet wise, it can plow down 58 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: a forest like mowing a lawn, but this is entirely 59 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 2: in keeping with the scale of things up here. Working 60 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: alongside the D elevens are Komatsu D five seventy fives, 61 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: which are even bigger. Once the forest has been removed, 62 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: enormous electric shovels excavate the by two minutes, sand in 63 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: boulder sized chunks that can weigh one hundred tons and 64 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 2: occasionally contain complete dinosaur fossils from the Cretaceous period. These 65 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: garage sized payloads are dumped into a hauler, and the 66 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: Caterpillar T seven ninety seven is one of the biggest 67 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 2: dump trucks in the world. It's three stories tall and 68 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: weighs four hundred tons unloaded. There are hundreds of machines 69 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: like this operating in the mines north of Fort McMurray. 70 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: Far too large for ordinary highways, they must be transported 71 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: north in pieces. It takes twelve oversized semi loads traveling 72 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: with escorts to move the component parts of a single hauler. 73 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: The tires alone are thirteen feet tall and cost eighty 74 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: five thousand dollars a piece. When one of them catches 75 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 2: on fire, something that happens more often than one might 76 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 2: expect due to the terrific friction their loads generate, it 77 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 2: must be deflated from a safe distance with a rifle bullet. 78 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 2: Should one of these six ton tires explode on its own, 79 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 2: it will impact its surroundings like a powerful bomb. I 80 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: have read that one aloud. It's really that's thanks for 81 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: the for the opportunity, But. 82 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: Now the event itself is a disaster. It's a man 83 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: made disaster, but it's a disaster in the making many 84 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: many years. What in the history of Canada makes it 85 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: possible for the oil signs industry to be willed into 86 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: existence if it is so hard to make something valuable 87 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: out of dot. 88 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 2: I think Canadians have been trained since the seventeenth century 89 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: to extract things that nobody else really wanted, and do 90 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: it under the most difficult circumstances imaginable. And I really 91 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: think the tar trade, you could call it, grew quite organically, 92 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 2: if you want to call it organic, out of the 93 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: fur trade, and where basically the European hat industry ran 94 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: out of furs in the UK and Europe headed to 95 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 2: Canada in the late seventeenth century, a really difficult place 96 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: to work, freezing cold, and set about basically persuading compelling 97 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: the indigenous inhabitants of Canada to denude the boreal forest 98 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: of beavers. And it's a really hard thing to do. 99 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: But the Hudgson's Bay Company is, you know, along with 100 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: the East India Company, are really one of the first 101 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: global corporations. And even though it took three years to 102 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: do a full round of furs from the forest to 103 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: Montreal to the UK, returning with trade goods into the 104 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: Athabasca Wilderness for more beaver firs. That was a three 105 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: year cycle, it still was incredibly effective, incredibly lucrative, and 106 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: basically managed to harness the entire environment, human, animal and 107 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: inanimate into this profit making machine. And I think that 108 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: mindset and that skill set has informed the beitchuman industry 109 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: in some really powerful ways. 110 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: You also explain in the book that there is a 111 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: term called energy return on investment, which is a very 112 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: business term, and I bring it up with an important 113 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: reason because oil in most places requires one unit of energy, 114 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: gives you thirty units of. 115 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: Energy roughly, yeah, the way. 116 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: You describe, Butitjamen, it takes between one unit of energy 117 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: to get only three units of energy out. 118 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's again, no normal developed country and no person 119 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: who'd been to business school would ever do this. It's 120 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: insane and really it just doesn't make any sense. And 121 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: when you think of, you know, natural gas, that is 122 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: a viable fuel, say whatever you want about its impact 123 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: on climate. It comes out of the ground, ready to burn, 124 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: ready to generate energy. And that's why we're mostly interested 125 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 2: in petroleum is because it burns so In Canada, in 126 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: the borel Up in Alberta, they take this excellent fuel, 127 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: natural gas, and they burn it by the billions of 128 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: cubic feet to melt bitchumen out of quartzite sand. I'm 129 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: really sitting here like I don't even I can't even 130 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 2: believe I'm saying it, you know, really, it's so it's 131 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: so hard, you know, to do, and the temperature swings 132 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 2: up there, it goes to minus fifty, it goes to 133 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: plus ninety five. Machines don't like that. Heavy machinery doesn't 134 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: like that. Human beings don't like that, and they do 135 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: it anyway, and so it's so what. 136 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: Makes it a wild business. 137 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: It's I think Canadians do have a capacity for suffering, 138 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: and a lot of the employees, uh in the in 139 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: the Tarsans minds, are from Newfoundland, really depressed place, you know, 140 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: that lived off the seal industry, in the cod industry 141 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 2: until you know, one of them became politically unpopular and 142 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: the other one collapsed. So there are a lot of 143 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: Newfoundlanders in for McMurray. So some of it is that. 144 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: Some of it, I think is because we know where 145 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: the bitchumin is. There's there are no exploration costs, it's 146 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 2: literally under the ground. The natural gas is cheap, the 147 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 2: subsidies are generous, and by selling it at a discount 148 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: into the US market, which is voracious for petroleum in 149 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: all its forms, there's a way to turn a profit, 150 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: a marginal profit. And Putin has been, you know, the 151 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: best friend the bitchumin industry ever had, because it was 152 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: really in a hail spin before Russia invaded Ukraine and 153 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: spiked petroleum prices around the world. 154 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: But this oil industry was willed into existence by the 155 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: state right by providing the land for free, by providing 156 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: natural gas for very cheap, by providing subsidies to make 157 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: the industry happen, by going out of its way to 158 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: create the politics to attract capital from America to currently building. 159 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: The Canadian government is building the pipeline that would take 160 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: these tar sans to those places they finish. It could 161 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: not have existed without essentially the government taking the lead 162 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: on this industry. So let's flip the script here, because 163 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: one thing that we do need to do is to 164 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: try and build an industry that does not produce greenhouse 165 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: gas emissions but still produces energy because we all need it, right. 166 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: So if the Canadian government could do that for tar sans, 167 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: as you describe, such a difficult industry to make profitable, 168 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: could it not do it for clean energy solutions? 169 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: It absolutely could. And this is where kind of the 170 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: antidote to fire Weather, which is not an unhopeful book, 171 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 2: but it's a hard book in certain respects. The antidote 172 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: to it is oxhot Rothi's climate capitalism. I'm really I mean, 173 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: it really shows the way forward. And when I think 174 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: about Canada, it's the second largest nation by geography in 175 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: the world, second after Russia. We have infinite wind, we 176 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 2: have infinite solar. We have three oceans of title to 177 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: draw on. We've got everybody beat on that score. And 178 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: then we also have endless geothermal, a lot and enviable hydropower. 179 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: So were it to be a priority, were it to 180 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: be subsidized and pursued with the zeal with which the 181 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: bitumen industry has been pursued, Canada could power the continent 182 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: of North America no problem. By itself. We could power 183 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: the United States, and that is a matter of priority, 184 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: and we've already demonstrated we can do the impossible by 185 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: turning bitchumen into money. It is a dog of the 186 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: petroleum world. It's the only petroleum that sinks. You know, 187 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: oil is supposed to float, and bitchamin doesn't. Bitumen sinks. 188 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 2: So exactly, it's really it's political will, and you know 189 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: right now the petroleum industry is the tail wagging the 190 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: dog of the nation. 191 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: After the break, John and I look for solutions in 192 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: the aftermath of fire, and he explains how he broke 193 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 1: the conventions of science reporting, giving fire agency and personality. 194 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: And by the way, if you're enjoying this episode, please 195 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: take a moment to read and review the show on 196 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps us their listeners find 197 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for mentioning the book, because one thing 198 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: I look at is how to get businesses incentivized to 199 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: make the green transition happen. I'm sort of interested in 200 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: what is possible and profitable and practically possible within the 201 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: politics that we have today. But some of the stories 202 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: in your book are about something else. They're about sacrifice, 203 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: heroism that in many cases defies rational thought. Firefighters who 204 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: left their own homes to burn in order to try 205 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: and focus on trying to stop the spread of fire. 206 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: But when we talk about climate and we hear the 207 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: words sacrifice, few people want to give up their car, 208 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,359 Speaker 1: their burgers, their flights. So how can we bring sacrifice 209 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: to our understanding of what we need to be in 210 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: the twenty first century? Yah? 211 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: I think, I mean I think about that all the time, 212 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: and your book really shows us how to get there. 213 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: And I think if you're living in Newfoundland and your family, 214 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: whole family has been on the doles since nineteen ninety 215 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: two when the cod fishery crashed, you are not going 216 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: to care if Fort McMurray is digging bitjumin or building 217 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: solar panels or building windmills, you're going to go where 218 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: the work is. A beautiful counterbouance to that is Texas, 219 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: which is pretty hostile to the federal government, super conservative, 220 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: always been a kind of rancorous, independent minded place, and 221 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: they have installed and it's also the center, you know, 222 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: the ground zero of the American oil industry in the 223 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 2: early twentieth century. They have installed more wind and solar 224 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: in the past year than the nation of Canada has 225 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: in its entire existence. So you can have climate denial, 226 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: you can have hideous politics that punish women, that punish immigrants, 227 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: and you can still somehow move forward into twenty first 228 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: century energy. And some of that is because of President 229 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: Biden and subsidies to build this energy. But also it 230 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: makes sense for Texas. It's a huge place, it's got 231 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: a lot of wind, it's got a lot of solar, 232 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 2: it's got a lot of empty space, and so they 233 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: are laying on the gigawatts by the month now, so 234 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: it's totally possible. Whereas in Alberta, the twin sibling to Texas, 235 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: they have put a moratorium on wind and solar to 236 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: examine the environmental impacts as they expand bitchmin production. So 237 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: Canada had its worst fire season ever in twenty twenty three. 238 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: At the same time, the petroleum industry was make can 239 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: get abundantly clear that it wasn't going anywhere. Sun Core 240 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 2: and one of the biggest players up in for McMurray, 241 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: sold off its renewable energy arm, laid off fifteen hundred people, 242 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: and expanded its production. And every petroleum company that I've 243 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: seen quoted, you know, I've read Financial Times, Wall Street 244 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: Journal has made it really clear we're here for the 245 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: profits and we're not going anywhere. And they've almost given 246 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: up greenwashing. You know, they've been called out on that, 247 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: and I think they will not be allies in this transition. 248 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: We have to go around them, and that is happening. 249 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: We are in an energy transition right now. If you 250 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: kind of need some hope on this score, young people 251 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: are not going into the petroleum industry. That's not where 252 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 2: the energy is, so to speak. That's not where the 253 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: future is. And so what I see is a very powerful, 254 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 2: very entrenched industry, like the tobacco industry, trying to wring 255 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: every last dollar out of its model before it collapses. 256 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 2: And it's you know, it's obviously it's a huge part 257 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 2: of our world. It's a complicated question. We could talk 258 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: about it for an hour in terms of the way forward. 259 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: Now, there is a phenomena you describe in the book 260 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: where this is a new kind of fire, where the 261 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: weather is changed by the fire. Fire creates its own weather. 262 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a type of fire cloud called a pyrocumulonimbus cloud, 263 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 2: and they were essentially unknown in Europe until very recently, 264 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: and they were generally seen only over erupting volcanoes. And 265 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: we've seen them in images from the Old Testament. You 266 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 2: see the black cloud billowing up into the heavens out 267 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: of the volcano, and there's lightning and black hail. It's 268 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: written about an exodus, for example in the Old Testament. Well, 269 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: this actually happened, and atmospheric science hasts had not really 270 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: ever seen it happening over a forest fire until nineteen 271 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: ninety eight. The most closely studied one happened in Alberta, 272 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: quite close to for McMurray in two thousand and one. 273 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: And these fire systems puncture the stratosphere. They're forty five 274 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 2: thousand feet tall, they generate their own winds, They turned 275 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: the way a hurricane does and because they generate their 276 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: own lightning, This pyrocumulonimbus fire system essentially turns into a 277 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 2: self perpetuation machine where it can start its new fires 278 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: twenty or thirty miles away from the central fire. So 279 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: this was an extraordinary rarity, really written about in the 280 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: late nineties and early two thousands as a kind of novelty. 281 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: It didn't really enter the literature of fire science until 282 00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: around twenty ten. But this pyrocumulonimbus fire system I was 283 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: a companion of the Fort McMurray fire for many, many days. 284 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: This fire burnt in the city, not for days, I think. 285 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: Actually the Great Fire of London in sixteen sixty six 286 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: lasted for about five days, but obviously that was an 287 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: extraordinary historic phenomenon driven by wooden houses and other things. 288 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: This fire, this was a modern city, and the fire 289 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: was burning in and out of the city, driven by 290 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: winds for a week or so, And part of this 291 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: was due to this giant fire system swirling above that 292 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: was starting new fires again twenty to thirty miles away 293 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: from the center, but also generating its own winds and 294 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: sucking up all available moisture not just from the forest 295 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: but from fire hoses from any attempt to put this 296 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: fire out, and the houses and the trees of Fort 297 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: McMurray basically came back to earth as black hail, and 298 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: it really was a kind of biblical scenario, and that 299 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 2: was one of the things that made me want to 300 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 2: explore this more closely. And then I realized that this 301 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 2: the fire, the heat being generated again. Everything is extraordinary dry, 302 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: extraordinarily hot, and it created this kind of new set 303 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: of parameters for the fire to grow and expand in 304 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: So the heat coming out of the forest into Fort 305 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: McMurray was five hundred celsius. That's the radiant heat, and 306 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: radiant heat that's the heat that tells you not to 307 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 2: touch the candle. It moves at the speed of light, 308 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: and so the fire can be way over there, but 309 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 2: the heat is desiccating everything in front of it and 310 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: heating it above combustive temperatures. So as soon as an 311 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: ember lands on it and embers were flying in the 312 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 2: tens of thousands that day, it bursts into flame. And 313 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: that's why homes half million, three quarter million dollar houses 314 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 2: built to the state of the art, and they were 315 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: burning to the baseman in five minutes and when firefighters 316 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: told me this, I thought, well, you're exaggerating talking to 317 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: a journalist. You're a lot of adrenaline that day. I 318 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 2: can see why things would be accelerated for you. No's 319 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: three minutes over here, five minutes over there, eight minutes 320 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 2: over there. And finally I talked to a physicist who 321 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: specializes in domestic combustion in the burning of houses, and 322 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: he said, well, yes, that is possible, and why don't 323 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 2: you go and study the Hamburg firestorm of nineteen forty 324 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: three if you want to understand the mechanics better. So 325 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 2: that's basically what was recreated in for McMurray from an 326 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 2: organic wildfire. 327 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: And the Hamburg firestorm is where the Allies bomb southeast 328 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: of Hamburg, perhaps the most number of infendiary bombs that 329 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: were dropped in any one place during the entire World War. Now, 330 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: you do a thing in the book in a very 331 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: interesting way. You give fire agency, You personify it. There 332 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: is a character in their book who calls it a beast. 333 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: You write about fires seeming to have a drive of 334 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: its own. And it's an intriguing choice to me because 335 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: I trained in the sciences. So why do you make 336 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: fire a character? This way, what does the beast want? 337 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 2: Well, it's a really touchy subject, especially among scientists. You're 338 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: not allowed to anthropomorphize natural processes. And also in nonfiction, 339 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 2: I'm not allowed to take those kinds of liberties. I 340 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 2: wrote a book about a tiger, I'm not allowed to 341 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: anthropomorphize the tiger, even though I do try to get 342 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: into its head to figure out what its motives are. 343 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: Fire is even more difficult and kind of more fraud. 344 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: But the beauty of not being a scientist and being 345 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: locked up in a room for seven years as I 346 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 2: was working on this book is you can kind of 347 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: really let your mind wander. And I wondered, humans and 348 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: fire are so closely entangled, and we always have been. 349 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: And I think you think about humans and dogs. You know, 350 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: we've been together for forty or fifty thousand years, and 351 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: you know, what is it about dogs and humans that 352 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: make such good companions? And so I pose the same 353 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: question of fire, even though fire is not animate and 354 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: alive in the same sense, And I thought, do we 355 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: have a common ancestor? And again this is not scientific, 356 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: but we do have a common molecule, and that is oxygen, 357 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: And oxygen is the engine of life, and anything that 358 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 2: depends on oxygen, whether it's a human or a dog, 359 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: or an octopus or a wildfire, is a hostage to 360 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: that molecule and has to keep moving in order to 361 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: feed itself. And so fire will die. If we just 362 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 2: lit this table on fire and the table burned up, 363 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: the fire would go out, but there's all all this 364 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 2: plastic whatever it is here, and that heat would try 365 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: to release the hydrocarbons from that, and it would try 366 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: to keep moving. That's what it wants to do. Its 367 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: default is not to die. Its default is to try 368 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: to perpetuate itself, to try to expand, to try to grow. 369 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: And I made a list of all our common attributes, 370 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: and there's about a dozen of them. And so fire 371 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 2: is not alive, it's certainly not sentients, but it's lively 372 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: and it's ambitious. And after this fire refused to leave 373 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: the city for three or four days, the fire chief 374 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: called it the Beast, and that's what it became known as. 375 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 2: And it's really the first time I think in post 376 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: contact North American history that a natural phenomenon has been 377 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: given that kind of sort of animate power and identity, 378 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: and yet to see it behave to talk to firefighters 379 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 2: about it. It felt like an address area that was 380 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 2: behaving in a willful and intentional manner. 381 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: And then you flip the script and you say, we're 382 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: not homo sapiens anymore, Homo sapiens being sapiens being wise, 383 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, no longer wise we are homoflagerants. We are 384 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: a burning man. 385 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: Why well, when you I just again had seven years, 386 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 2: you know, to think about it and not healthy. I 387 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 2: don't recommend it, really, but I did get a book 388 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: out of it, and I hope yours took less time. 389 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: The question helped me with a question. 390 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: Humans created the environment we live in anymore. Right, we 391 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: are using fossil fuels to be able to power our lives, 392 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: but it's also creating these fires. And now you're saying 393 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: those fires are going to make us we become homo flaggers. 394 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this engagement we have with fire and the 395 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: fact that first of all, I had to make the leap. 396 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: So we think about petroleum, We most of us recognize 397 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 2: that most of what goes on in our world, in 398 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 2: terms of our mobility, in terms of our economy, heating 399 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: is driven at root by some form of petroleum product, 400 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 2: and it took me a long time to understand that 401 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 2: the petroleum industry is a fire industry. And I made 402 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 2: the mistake of counting the number of fires that humans 403 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 2: make every day, and it's actually in the trillions when 404 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: you count the combustions in our engine. And so I 405 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: imagine being an extraterrestrial looking down on planet Earth as 406 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 2: it is now, with eight billion humans lighting fires wherever 407 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: we go, and I thought, wow, this is a planet 408 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: that follows a fire cod everywhere we go there is 409 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 2: fire of some kind or another. And then I started 410 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 2: thinking about the petroleum industry a fire industry. And then 411 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: I took it a step further and came to understand 412 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 2: that the petroleum industry is a wholly owned subsidiary of fire. 413 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 2: Fire is the ultimate expression of that domestication of desire. 414 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 2: We are it's servants, and I think we are operating 415 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 2: under the kind of illusion that fire is our servant. 416 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: But when you look at the fact that now fire 417 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 2: burns more intensely, more broadly across the world than at 418 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 2: any time in human history, and when you look at 419 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: the geologic record in terms of the impacts of this 420 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: obsession with liquid fueled fire, I think the geologic record 421 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: will show that it's humans who served fire rather than 422 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,239 Speaker 2: the other way around. The twenty first century is going 423 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: to be a really different experience for all of us. 424 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: All of us are going to see this. And there's 425 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 2: a small town in British Columbia that burnt to the 426 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: ground in forty five minutes in twenty twenty one during 427 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: the heat dome and the mayor, sixty year old man, 428 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: was being interviewed about it and he said, yeah, I 429 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: thought climate change was a problem for future generation, and 430 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 2: now I'm the mayor of a town that no longer exists. 431 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 2: So we are kind of reckoning with these changes at 432 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: the same time that we see this really powerful awakening, 433 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 2: especially among young people, but among all kinds of people 434 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: that seeing the necessity of renegotiating and revivifying our relationship 435 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 2: to the planet. Fort McMurray was just evacuated again last 436 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 2: week due to fire, and people don't want to work 437 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: in that environment. So they're these kind of systemic cultural 438 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: changes and this way of understanding nature and our role 439 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: in it that is new and challenging and happening, and 440 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: that I'm really excited to be part of that. It's 441 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: going to be really quite pain. We are going to 442 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: lose things. We're losing things right now. But we can 443 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: handle this. And the question is how, how quickly and 444 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: how and then how enlightened a way can we address it? 445 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jong, Thank you, thanks a lot, Thank thank 446 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: you for listening to Zero. If you liked this episode, 447 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate or review the show 448 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a 449 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: friend or with an arsonist. You can get in touch 450 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: at zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is 451 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: Mike le Rau. Bloomberg's head of podcast is Sage Bauman 452 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: and head of Talk is Brendan newnham. Our theme music 453 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special. Thanks to the organizers of 454 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: Charleston Festival, Takira bindrim Anamazarakis and Alisia Clinton I am 455 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: Akshadharrati Back soon.