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Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature, feature production of I Heart Radio. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology

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Speaker 1: and evolutionary biology, and welcome to part two of our

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Speaker 1: Creature We'm spook Tacular. Today we're visiting the spookiest, smartest,

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Speaker 1: most spectacular family in the annual Kingdom, the Corvids, Crows, ravens, rooks,

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Speaker 1: and more. Are crows the smartest being on Earth? Do

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Speaker 1: they mourn they're dead? Do they hold a grudge? Discover

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Speaker 1: this more as we answered the Agel question. Our Eurasian

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Speaker 1: magpies too obsessed with themselves? Joining me today, I have

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Speaker 1: an incredibly exciting and special gifts that I have been

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Speaker 1: looking forward to having on the show for some time.

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Speaker 1: She's an ornithologist who specializes in corvettes, a crow behavioral researcher,

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Speaker 1: Twitter celebrity creator of the crow or No hashtag, probably

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Speaker 1: a secret bird herself. Dr Kylee Swift. Ah, Hi, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for having me, Katie. I am a big

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Speaker 1: fan of yours. I have been observing the crow or

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Speaker 1: No hashtag game on Twitter for a long time. It's

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Speaker 1: very fun. Yeah, I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was, I can't. I think it's been like five

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Speaker 1: years that I've been playing this game for maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: only four, but like many years half every week that

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Speaker 1: I've been playing this and I'm like amazed and so

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Speaker 1: pleased that people keep coming back to ask this what

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Speaker 1: seems to be a very simple but turns out to

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Speaker 1: be very tricky question. Is that ambiguous black thing this

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Speaker 1: guy a crow or not? Right? Right? And I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. So one thing that people struggle with is

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Speaker 1: telling the difference between a crow and a raven. But

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Speaker 1: there are actually a lot of Corvid's other birds in

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Speaker 1: general that kind of look like a crow, but they aren't.

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Speaker 1: Just so the listener knows, Corvids is a family of

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Speaker 1: birds that includes crows, ravens, rooks, and jackdaws, which all

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Speaker 1: look actually pretty similar. But there are also other family

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Speaker 1: members such as Jay's magpies, nutcrackers, tree pies, which are

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Speaker 1: found in tropical regions, and chuffs, which are actually something

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Speaker 1: I just found out about. They're found in North Africa

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Speaker 1: and southern Eurasia. So a big diverse family of birds.

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Speaker 1: Uh so they're not all crow like, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of them really look like crows, and uh, they're also crows.

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Speaker 1: There's not just like one species of crow, right, there

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Speaker 1: are a whole bunch of different species of birds that

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Speaker 1: we call crows. Yeah, exactly. So if we if we

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Speaker 1: want to put our sort of taxonomy hats on and

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Speaker 1: think about how we classify animals. You just described corvette,

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Speaker 1: which is at the family level, so that's kind of

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Speaker 1: our biggest umbrella. And then if we drop down and

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Speaker 1: get a little more narrow from there, you have all

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Speaker 1: of the different genera or genus. And so the Corvus

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Speaker 1: genus is probably the one that's most familiar to people,

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Speaker 1: and that's the genus that houses specifically the crows, ravens,

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Speaker 1: and rooks. And in that genus alone, there are over

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Speaker 1: forty five different species of birds. So that is absolutely

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Speaker 1: one of the elements that makes this game a little

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Speaker 1: bit more interesting and fun is that it's not as

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Speaker 1: simple as just asking like American crow versus common raven.

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Speaker 1: But because I can draw on Corvitt's all around the world,

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Speaker 1: some of these species you know, most people have never

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Speaker 1: heard of, like the gray crow or maybe the pied

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Speaker 1: crow or the large build crow. It just adds another

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Speaker 1: fun element to this game and hopefully makes people appreciate

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Speaker 1: just how much diversity exist us within this genus and

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Speaker 1: this family. It's a game that I struggle with. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I know everything about birds. No, not at all. I

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Speaker 1: will see something like, oh, but its tail is shaped

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Speaker 1: like a triangle, so that means it must be Um,

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Speaker 1: that's that's got to be a raven. And it's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's that's not I'm totally wrong every time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think I've talked on the show before sort of

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Speaker 1: like how you differentiate between a raven and a crow.

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Speaker 1: Like there are a few signs in terms of like

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Speaker 1: their voices, you know, Ravens, uh sort of have this

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Speaker 1: like long drawn out croak a little more and crows

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Speaker 1: have the cow cow cow kind of thing. And but

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Speaker 1: it's some of the distinctions are sort of a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a gray area because you could say, like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: ravens are a little more solitary, but not always. They

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Speaker 1: sometimes like to hang out in groups. Crows generally hang

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Speaker 1: out in larger groups, but that's also not always true.

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Speaker 1: What are some ways that you can identify a crow

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Speaker 1: and what are sort of some of the tricky things

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Speaker 1: that hap and in terms of mistakes made with crow identification. Sure, so,

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Speaker 1: like you're hinting at, there's very few kind of objective

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Speaker 1: field marks things that are fool proof ways to tell

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Speaker 1: because they're just as a lot of sort of individual

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Speaker 1: variation and nuance that that makes it tricky. But generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: one of the best features to look for is Ravens

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Speaker 1: have these heavily textured lancelated throat feathers called hackles, and

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Speaker 1: it gives their throats sort of this like gruff beard

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Speaker 1: like appearance. And American crows, by contrast, have very smooth,

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Speaker 1: kind of fine hair like throats, and carrying crows they

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Speaker 1: edge a little bit hacklier, but it's still it's still

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Speaker 1: much like you know, it's like a teenager getting their

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Speaker 1: scruff in versus you know, mountain carrying crows are found

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Speaker 1: in like the u k Um, whereas American crows are

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Speaker 1: well found in America exactly. Yeah, yeah, Carrie, and crows

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Speaker 1: are basically found throughout Europe and Eurasia, so they're they're

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Speaker 1: very widespread species. Um, So look for those hackles. That's

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Speaker 1: one of the best no shave no shave crow member exactly.

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Speaker 1: Tail shape is the next one. Now for any crow

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Speaker 1: or no players. They might be aggravated with me this

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Speaker 1: week because I gave them a very very tricky photo yesterday,

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Speaker 1: which I'll get into in just a minute. But generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: the rule is ravens have a diamond shaped tail versus crows.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's American crow, Carrie, and crow. Really, all the

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Speaker 1: crow species have a square or kind of gently rounded

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Speaker 1: tail shape, right, so the one is like a like

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Speaker 1: a fan, like a hand fan, that's the crow, whereas

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Speaker 1: ravens kind of have an extra little point, tapered point

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Speaker 1: at the end of their tails. Yeah, those central tail

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Speaker 1: feathers are a bit longer than the rest. The one

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Speaker 1: time of year that can become kind of trick though,

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Speaker 1: is in the fall, when these birds are molting and

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Speaker 1: crows are growing in their new tail feathers. They can

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Speaker 1: get this kind of scalloped, you know, shape because the

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Speaker 1: feathers haven't completely grown in, and it can look just deceptively,

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Speaker 1: I just looks exactly like a ra They're just toying

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Speaker 1: with us at this toying with us, yes, But generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: like I said, tail shape and hackles are the too

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Speaker 1: easiest kind of foolproof ways to tell them apart behaviorally geographically,

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Speaker 1: you're more likely to find ravens in rural areas or

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Speaker 1: in wildland areas. They're more carrion specialists. But they'll absolutely

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Speaker 1: head into town, you know, if if they can, and

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Speaker 1: there's not too much competition, And especially folks living in

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Speaker 1: more rural cities like Bozeman for example, they're they're absolutely

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Speaker 1: used to ravens at their local target. Um and there

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Speaker 1: are ravens that breed in downtown l A. So, so

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Speaker 1: these are birds can be city birds versus crows. They're

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Speaker 1: pretty much exclusively city and rural birds. If they're in

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Speaker 1: the woods, it's because there's a campground nearby, but you

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Speaker 1: very rarely find them, you know, more than about twenty

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Speaker 1: miles away from any kind of human settlement. They are.

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Speaker 1: They are much more sort of what the scientific term

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Speaker 1: we'd use as a synanthrock or an animal that really

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Speaker 1: exists in close company with human beings kind of by

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Speaker 1: choice or by design, so to speak. Right, an urban

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Speaker 1: adapter who's just given up the wildlife almost entirely, sort

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Speaker 1: of like pigeons. Yeah, yeah, urban exploiters. Yeah, they are

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Speaker 1: not making the city, you know, they're not making do

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Speaker 1: in the city. Is they are making the cities work

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Speaker 1: for that. There's something too about crows that is so

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Speaker 1: charming to me, because they have all of the attitude

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Speaker 1: of other urban exploiting birds like seagulls and pigeons, but

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Speaker 1: there's something a little more elegant about it, where it's

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with the sass of a crow more than

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Speaker 1: I like. When a seagull gets mad at me, I

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Speaker 1: just feel kind of bullied, But when it's a crow

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Speaker 1: getting mad at me, it's sort of like, oh man,

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Speaker 1: this this crow is like like sassing me, and I

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Speaker 1: like it. There, I absolutely know what you're describing. There

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Speaker 1: is this sense of more playfulness because crows are so

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Speaker 1: aware of what they're doing and their relationships with people

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Speaker 1: that there's this sense of purpose behind it that you

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Speaker 1: can't help but like respect right, it's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of mischief. It's a little bit of the Adam's family mischief,

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Speaker 1: where yeah, they seem very sinister, but there's a playful

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Speaker 1: mischief that is I think really endearing. And I guess

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Speaker 1: this kind of ties into my question about you, which

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Speaker 1: is why did you pick birds and in particular corvids

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Speaker 1: as your area of research? So I grew up like

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Speaker 1: a total weird animal nerd. I thought I was a

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Speaker 1: wolf for a long time. I can't real late at

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Speaker 1: I bet you can't, Katie. Most people I meet are

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Speaker 1: you know, cool, cool people. When I need a person,

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Speaker 1: I just have to assume that they did not grow up.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm actually being sarcastic. I used to. I used

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Speaker 1: to pretend I was a cricket, so I feel like

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Speaker 1: we would have gotten along. Yeah, no, we absolutely did,

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Speaker 1: and those people always grow up to be the most

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Speaker 1: awesome people. But so I was really into you know,

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Speaker 1: animals and wolves, and and then as I grew up,

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Speaker 1: I kind of sort of lost favor with wolves a

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Speaker 1: little bit as a particular species. But I really liked

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Speaker 1: the kinds of things that I used to question and

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Speaker 1: enquire about wolves, and that was primarily focused on like

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Speaker 1: these really cool social dynamics that they live, and I

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Speaker 1: just thought that was so interesting and it seemed at

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Speaker 1: the time it seems so different than most other animals.

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Speaker 1: So then kind of like puttering along through you know,

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Speaker 1: school and getting into undergrad that was kind of my

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Speaker 1: time to to try to think more specifically about like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what could I actually study? Because I have a d

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Speaker 1: h D and so it means that, like I have

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Speaker 1: a very hard time focusing obviously, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not a trivial question for me to ask,

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Speaker 1: like what captivates me? Like, it's actually a really serious

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Speaker 1: question because if I don't get that answer right, then

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Speaker 1: I cannot stick to something. So I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what can I realistically really dedicate myself too? And I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, I'm still really into these questions about

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Speaker 1: like social dynamics, and and it's really interesting too the

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Speaker 1: more I've sort of read how there seems to be

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Speaker 1: this connection between you know, social animals and more advanced

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Speaker 1: levels of cognitive function and executive function, and that seems

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Speaker 1: like just a really cool world to exist in and

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Speaker 1: do research on. And then sort of in compliment to that,

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Speaker 1: I always loved birds. I grew up brood watching with

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Speaker 1: my grandma, and so when I read Minded the Raven

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Speaker 1: by Berne Heinrich, that was kind of this aha moment

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Speaker 1: of like, holy crab, this is like the perfect marriage

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Speaker 1: of being able to watch and ask questions about birds

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Speaker 1: and exists in this space where we are enquiring about

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Speaker 1: how being social maybe plays into cognition and yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so that's kind of how I arrived at Corvid's and

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Speaker 1: then from there I was kind of like Corvitt's or bust,

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Speaker 1: which is not a strategy I recommend to other early professionals,

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Speaker 1: but it did work out for me. I was like,

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Speaker 1: if I'm going to go to graduate school, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be to study these birds. That is where I'm going.

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Speaker 1: And it took some time and a lot of hard work,

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Speaker 1: but I made that happen for myself, and I'm so

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Speaker 1: grateful that I had the opportunity that I did to

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Speaker 1: study these birds for so long. That's so interesting because

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Speaker 1: I've also always had a fascination with birds. When I

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Speaker 1: was a little kid, my mom said that I used

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Speaker 1: to chase birds around and she was like, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing. I was like, I feel like if they

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Speaker 1: got to know me, they would like me. There is

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Speaker 1: something fascinating about birds because they are evolutionarily speaking, so

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Speaker 1: different from us. They branched off like they're they're dinosaurs,

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Speaker 1: and so to have these living dinosaurs that actually display

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Speaker 1: such incredible emotional, social, and cognitive intelligence is really really fascinating,

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Speaker 1: and I think there's something to see that amount of

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Speaker 1: personality and something so dinosaur like. I think it's really

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Speaker 1: really cool and really exciting. I mean, I think there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people that love bird watching. What's

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Speaker 1: kind of the difference between being a casual observer of

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Speaker 1: birds and actually researching their behavior because it's you know,

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Speaker 1: bird research goes a step beyond just like watching birds

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Speaker 1: in the binocular, they are all sorts of other mechanisms

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Speaker 1: at play there. The first difference is that as researchers,

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Speaker 1: we don't get to stop watching them just because it

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Speaker 1: gets boring, which really it makes the envy is of

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Speaker 1: the casual birdwatchers sometimes because that's the thing about science

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Speaker 1: that I feel like non scientists maybe don't appreciate um,

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Speaker 1: partly because it's not the way scientists is often portrayed

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Speaker 1: or delivered to them. But it is like tediousness with

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Speaker 1: like one percent ah cool moment, right, You're not just

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Speaker 1: like looking for, Hey, that bird just did something cool.

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Speaker 1: You actually have to code for very specific behaviors and movements,

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Speaker 1: and you have to you can't necessarily like freely interpret

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Speaker 1: like oh, the bird looks like he's maybe interested in

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Speaker 1: this thing, Like you have to actually kind of have

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Speaker 1: very strict observations of behavior that are quantifiable other otherwise

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Speaker 1: it's just your opinion on what the bird is doing

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Speaker 1: right exactly, which is are you know? Already hard enough

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Speaker 1: sometimes in the sciences, but it is especially hard when

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Speaker 1: you're trying to interpret animal behavior. Right, when we're trying

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Speaker 1: to interpret these things that, um, we can't literally ask

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Speaker 1: the animals, and so we are pretty vulnerable to if

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Speaker 1: we aren't super structured, we become more vulnerable to just

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Speaker 1: interpreting things through our own lens as people. Right, you

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Speaker 1: can't really psychoanalyze the crow and ask, like, how are

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Speaker 1: you feeling? I mean, you could with like actually with

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Speaker 1: a raven, right, and it could technically answer because they

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Speaker 1: can they can talk. It's just they probably won't say

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Speaker 1: much that makes sense. Well, so to be fair, all

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Speaker 1: the corvetts can talk, uh, and not just ravens, and

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, if we could, oh my gosh, that would

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Speaker 1: be that's a dream man. You just described the dream.

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Speaker 1: But to date, no one has ever gotten lucky enough

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Speaker 1: that a crave, that craven, that a raven or crow

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Speaker 1: just kind of offered up the answer to us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you know what, that shouldn't stop anyone from asking

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Speaker 1: the question right, you know, statistically, one of these days

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Speaker 1: it will work right. So, one of these days I'll

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Speaker 1: be able to get an actual crow on the podcast

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Speaker 1: and interview it, and I'll be like, how is your childhood?

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Speaker 1: And I'll go for this week's episode, I thought we

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Speaker 1: could do a fun game. I'll play some bird noises

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Speaker 1: and we'll see if you can identify the call. Which

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Speaker 1: corvette do you think is making this mournful crow? If

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Speaker 1: you guessed raven, give yourself a pat on the back.

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Speaker 1: And who do you think is making this sound? That's

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Speaker 1: a crow? And who do you think is making this call?

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Speaker 1: That's Joe the Raven at Clovis Zoo and New Mexico

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Speaker 1: saying Hangman's coming. And if you think that's spooky, wait

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Speaker 1: until we return earn when we talk about a murder

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Speaker 1: of crows and crow murder. So imagine that you're walking

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Speaker 1: through a nice, quiet college campus, the University of Washington

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Speaker 1: in Seattle. You see a few figures standing in the distance.

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Speaker 1: Even from far away, you can tell something isn't quite right.

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Speaker 1: As you approach, you notice they're holding something, as if

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Speaker 1: offering it to some unseen entity. It dums on you

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Speaker 1: that all the figures are wearing masks of human faces

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Speaker 1: that look almost realistic but not quite, and the thing

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Speaker 1: in their hands it's a dead crow. And around them

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Speaker 1: you hear the anguished cry of other crows. One of

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Speaker 1: the figures holds up a sign it reads crow studies,

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Speaker 1: do not be alarmed. So, kaylie, explain yourself. This is

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Speaker 1: a pretty well known study. And to the casual observer,

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Speaker 1: it looks like a bunch of people wearing humanoid maths,

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Speaker 1: holding a dead crow and pleading with people not to

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Speaker 1: be alarmed. So what is going on? What are you

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Speaker 1: guys up to? Is this some kind of occult ritual

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Speaker 1: or is this actual science? So your description of what

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Speaker 1: it would appear to be was is what it was,

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Speaker 1: and it was real science. Though I had multiple people

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Speaker 1: asked me if it was some kind of cult ritual,

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Speaker 1: In fact I was. I was trying to get one

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Speaker 1: woman in a Seattle neighborhood. She had a crow nest

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Speaker 1: crow that was nesting in her backyard. And one of

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Speaker 1: the important things and how we set up the experiments,

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Speaker 1: as we always made sure to distance them the same

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Speaker 1: distance away from nests, so that how the crows responded

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Speaker 1: we could trust wasn't being influenced by how close or

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Speaker 1: far we were, And so I explained to her the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. You know, I had business cards at this point.

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Speaker 1: I told her I was a researcher with the UDUB

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to do the study on crows. I

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Speaker 1: showed her where the crow nest was. We had a

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Speaker 1: really nice conversation. What you guys were looking at is

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Speaker 1: like how the crows were going to respond to this

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Speaker 1: dead crow that you had. Yes, so, and at this stage,

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Speaker 1: you know, I it was just me. I didn't have

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Speaker 1: any of this the stuff with me or the masks,

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Speaker 1: but I had kind of primed her on what we

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Speaker 1: would be doing and it's and it seemed to be

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Speaker 1: going very well. And at the very end of the

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Speaker 1: conversation she was like, okay, so just I just want

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Speaker 1: to make sure is this is this any kind of

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Speaker 1: like satanic worship thing? Is that this is like no? So, yes,

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Speaker 1: you are that far off in thinking that people thought

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Speaker 1: that because they really did. But no, one of those

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Speaker 1: D and D Satanic cult rituals you know that they

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Speaker 1: do with the dungeons and dragons. Yes, yeah, I got

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Speaker 1: that question. Had a police offic us or pull over

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Speaker 1: at one point and asked me this one I was.

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Speaker 1: I had to actually hear way, well, well, I'll pause

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Speaker 1: those stories. I have great stories about what people thought

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Speaker 1: we were doing, but I should probably tell you what

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Speaker 1: we were actually doing. So the question that I spent

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Speaker 1: my time as a graduate student at the U working

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Speaker 1: on was why are crows so interested in their dead? What?

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Speaker 1: How does that manifest? And why you are they doing it.

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Speaker 1: My first experiment was based off of a previous study

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Speaker 1: that had been done on California scrub jays, which are

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Speaker 1: jayser in the corve dat family, and they found that

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Speaker 1: jays had a pretty strong response to dead jays, and

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Speaker 1: they hypothesized and seemed to get support for this idea

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Speaker 1: that maybe this is kind of an extension of anti

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Speaker 1: predator behaviors because how they responded to dead jays seemed

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Speaker 1: pretty similar actually to how they responded to predators. So

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Speaker 1: we wanted to follow that up with crows, because crows

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Speaker 1: likewise seem to display really strong reactions to their dead.

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Speaker 1: But we wanted to narrow in and be a little

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Speaker 1: bit more specific and ask kind of, okay, so if

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Speaker 1: it is an extension of anti predator behaviors, are they

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Speaker 1: may be learning something that is useful to them, And

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Speaker 1: so we asked if crows might use these so called

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Speaker 1: funerals to learn about new places, dangerous places. So if

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Speaker 1: they see a dead crow in a particular area, do

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Speaker 1: they sort of take a mental note and are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you got to be more careful here or or not?

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Speaker 1: And then could they maybe be learning new predators specifically people?

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Speaker 1: And the reason we picked people is because people are

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Speaker 1: a really interesting element in the crow world because we

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Speaker 1: fall on such a spectrum of attitudes and behaviors. Right like,

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Speaker 1: when a crow sees a red tail hawk, it can

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Speaker 1: pretty reliably predict that they're not going to be friends.

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Speaker 1: But people people can kind of go any number of ways.

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Speaker 1: They can turn out to just completely ignore them and

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Speaker 1: be sort of these neutral figures. They can be really

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Speaker 1: benevolent and offer them food and want to sort of

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Speaker 1: forge this relationship, or they can be sort of malicious

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Speaker 1: and even lethal. And so asking that question with people

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Speaker 1: is an interesting one because crows really do have this

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Speaker 1: moment where they sort of make an impression of somebody

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Speaker 1: that then you can measure when they encounter that person

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Speaker 1: in the future, which I think is really interesting too,

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Speaker 1: when you think about animal behavior in response to people,

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Speaker 1: where there are a lot of animals that just will

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Speaker 1: not necessarily learn to mediate their response to people, whereas

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Speaker 1: more social animals, like say the early ancestor to dogs,

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Speaker 1: this wolf like ancestor learned like, hey, I can actually

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Speaker 1: kind of go get close to some humans and they'll

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Speaker 1: actually feed me and they're actually good for me. So

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Speaker 1: it is it's always fascinating to me how some animals

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Speaker 1: to be the most simple examples like a housefly is

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Speaker 1: never gonna learn to be cool around a human like um.

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Speaker 1: But then you start to get more intelligent animals like

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Speaker 1: dogs but also birds, and they start to kind of

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Speaker 1: mediate their response, like actually, if I don't always run away,

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Speaker 1: if I don't always just automatically flee, I may actually

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Speaker 1: gain an advantage. Yeah, And I think that comparison between

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Speaker 1: crows and dogs is a really interesting one because both

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Speaker 1: of those animals have have really shown this sort of

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Speaker 1: co evolution with people where there's been this very clear

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Speaker 1: um evolutionary give and take where we have really shaped

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Speaker 1: them and vice versa. So getting back to our question

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Speaker 1: of you know, what are these funerals for? Is it

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Speaker 1: that they're an opportunity to learn about danger and here

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Speaker 1: are two specific things we can look to dangerous places

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Speaker 1: and dangerous people. And so the way that we actually

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Speaker 1: tested that was by going throughout the Seattle you know,

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Speaker 1: the city of Seattle, Greater Seattle area and identifying individual

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Speaker 1: breeding pairs. So we did this study all through the

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Speaker 1: spring and summer, and so we would identify a nest

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Speaker 1: and then we would sort of establish our experimental site

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Speaker 1: of certain distance away from the nest tree, and we

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Speaker 1: would start to feed them. Uh. And so what that

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Speaker 1: allowed us to do is over the course of three days,

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Speaker 1: we could get them used to coming to a place

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Speaker 1: for food. And that gave us a baseline of like

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Speaker 1: when we put you know, our our cheeto peanut combo down,

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Speaker 1: how quickly do they do? Cheetos were key because it

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Speaker 1: turns out, you know, crows like peanuts, but they don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily love them, and not every crow likes them, but

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Speaker 1: every crow likes Cheetos, And so that was kind of

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Speaker 1: early stages. We used bread, and then I couldn't use

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Speaker 1: bread because the goals would come in and they would

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Speaker 1: literally eat an entire loaf of bread before would even

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Speaker 1: show up. So it couldn't use bread, and then I

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Speaker 1: switched to peanuts, but it was just taking forever for

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Speaker 1: the crows to come. So then I finally like would

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Speaker 1: put out my big handful of peanuts and then I

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Speaker 1: would just like you know, salt Bay a little like

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Speaker 1: Cheetos on top, and then crows would come like that,

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Speaker 1: what's there? What's their favorite Cheetah's flavor? Just original classic? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just did original classic. I didn't want to get

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Speaker 1: too wild with any kind of season eggs, but that

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Speaker 1: gave us a baseline of of how quickly to crows

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Speaker 1: come down to the food, and then on the fourth

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Speaker 1: day we would introduce our our funeral element. There was

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Speaker 1: actually a few things we tested, but the most relevant

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Speaker 1: one to this conversation is a masked person holding a

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Speaker 1: dead crow. And the reason that we use those sort

427
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: of you know, Uncanny Valley style masks where they're very

428
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: sort of human like but but off right they kind

429
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: of look like a Michael Myers mask where it's like

430
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: because like the Michael Myers mask was just like I

431
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: think it casts of like Will Shatner's face, but like

432
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 1: with slightly more flesh colored, because like Michael Myers, that's

433
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: sort of a gray color. But your masks are slightly

434
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: more realistic, but it's still very creepy to look at.

435
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 1: It's very creepy. And the reason for that is so

436
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: originally in the so there was a facial recognition specific

437
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: study that was done out of the U DUB and

438
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: out of the lab that I eventually became a graduate student.

439
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: That's so they probably happened maybe five years before I

440
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: joined the lab. And for that study where they were

441
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: just asking can crows recognized people, they originally started with

442
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: these sort of cartoonish political masks, and they got some

443
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: very reasonable criticism that, well, of course crows are going

444
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: to remember that that's so different than a normal humans face,

445
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: Like you're really sort of giving them an edge by

446
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: using these very exaggerated masks. So to address that, John Marslist,

447
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: who's who was my p I and who ran that

448
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: facial recognition study, had an actual costume maker come in

449
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,959
Speaker 1: and take molds of real people's faces. So when I

450
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: go out there and I told my volunteer, you know,

451
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: today you're gonna be Linda, Tomorrow you're gonna be Vivian,

452
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: people are always like ha l O l you named

453
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: your masks, and I'm like, no, Linda is a real person.

454
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: That's really her face. We stole her face. We stole

455
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: her face. And so the reason that the masks look

456
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: so creepy is because it really looks like you cut

457
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: somebody's face off and are just wearing it. But that's

458
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: the idea, right, that's how you make it realistic. And fortunately,

459
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: because crows don't have the same kind of frame of

460
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: reference for you know, Mike Myers, Michael Myers different Michael

461
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: myerscar both scary because they don't have that frame of reference, Like,

462
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: they're not going to be like scared, they're just they

463
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: might think, like, that person looks a little you know, off,

464
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: or maybe they don't notice it at all, hopefully the latter.

465
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: But there's certainly a much better approximation for a human

466
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: face than those sort of cartoonish mask right. Yet it

467
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: you know spirit Halloween store, right, And you don't want

468
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: to train them on a real person, right because first

469
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: of all, it's harder to control, like for facial expression. Also,

470
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: the crows will harass that person for the rest of

471
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: their life. Those are two excellent reasons, and then the

472
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,479
Speaker 1: third is, you know, if you're going to do a

473
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: long term study where you want to expose them to

474
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: the same face over and over and over again. If

475
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: you're using a real person, that's a lot of pressure

476
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: and you're going to need to steal their face right right,

477
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: Like you know, you can't ask somebody to quit their

478
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: job in their life to come participate a crosstate for

479
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 1: the next ten years. Had an area stark in that

480
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: study would have been perfect exactly. So that's why we

481
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: use mass people to hold their dead crows. And so

482
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: that sort of establishes the like crows are used to

483
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: coming to a place to get said, one of these

484
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: days they show up and like, oh no, there's a person.

485
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: They're holding a dead crow. So kind of step one

486
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: from a data colle action perspective, or step two is

487
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: what does that moment look like? How many crows show up,

488
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: what kinds of sounds are they're making, how long do

489
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: they stick around for the police? Do they call the police? Yeah,

490
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: all those different kinds of questions. And then for the

491
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: next three days we reverted back to putting the food out.

492
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: So that's our first moment to look at do they

493
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: seem to be making any kind of mental note about this? Place,

494
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: because if the answer is no, then we would expect

495
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: to just be business as usual. Next day, they see

496
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: those cheetahs and they're like, all right, sweet food, time

497
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: come down, right. I wouldn't expect there to be any change, Right,

498
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: there was just a brutal murder here the other day,

499
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: But hey cheetahs, But hey cheetahs, exactly, We're going to

500
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: just come down just as quickly as we had been

501
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: over the course of those first three days. And then

502
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: the kind of second big test was if they see

503
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: that same mass person again, be a week later, only

504
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: now you know they're not holding a dead crow. Are

505
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: they going to just ignore them like any other schmell

506
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: on the street or are they going to freak out?

507
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: And we found that the answer to both of those

508
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: questions was yes, they do show more wariness after these

509
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: events in those areas even without that person or the

510
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: dead crow around, and the majority of birds in our

511
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: study if they saw that person again, would display behaviors

512
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: consistent with how they respond to threats, like they would dive,

513
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: bond them and alarm call, they would follow them. Uh.

514
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: And we obviously did a lot of controls to kind

515
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: of make sure that you know, as as one does

516
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: in science, to make sure that they're not inherently afraid

517
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: of these maths, that they don't inherently start not coming

518
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: to food after periods of time, Right, Like if Michael

519
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: Myers doesn't hold up a dead crow to them but

520
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: only feeds them Cheetos, they're not going to freak out.

521
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: They're not going to freak out. And I did that.

522
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: I literally did that experiment, so I could say that

523
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: for sure if Michael Myers or like creepy clowns were

524
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: only scared of them, because we associate that kind of

525
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: thing with like, oh, then they stab us. But if

526
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: they just offer us cheetos all the time and they're

527
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: pretty chill, you know, we're not gonna uh, we're not

528
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: going to be scared of them. And the same thing

529
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: the same thing with crows, it seems, which is really excellent. Yes, absolutely,

530
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's I love that crows have good horror

531
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: movie survival instincts, Like you know what I mean, you

532
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: watch a horror movie. A lot of the characters in

533
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: a horror movie just have the worst instincts, like, oh,

534
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: I saw a man wearing like a leather face, Uh,

535
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: maybe I follow him, you know, just like, oh, there's

536
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: there's someone covered in blood. I'll go down the stairs

537
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: into the basement to see what they're up to. Like now,

538
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: these crows, like I will call for any reinforcements or

539
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: anything like that. I'm just gonna go. Yeah. Now, crows

540
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: are are very adapt at calling for reinforcements when they

541
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: think something nefarious is a foot right, and that that

542
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: is what we were able to show. So the visually,

543
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: the kind of set up for this, just so your

544
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: listeners can picture it a little better. Is so my

545
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: role I was lucky and that I never was the target.

546
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: So I was kind of the the nice, benevolent feeder.

547
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: I would I would show up with my little clipboard

548
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: and my camera on a tripod and I would put

549
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: the food out. So at first they'd see me in

550
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: that context. Where are you wearing a mask for that

551
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: as well? Or I wasn't. I was just myself for

552
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: that cool. So like now they are like, hey, it's Kayleie,

553
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: like she's a friend of crows, and yes it is.

554
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: That's how I met my best crow friend. Go I

555
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: actually go the crow yep, Because I I couldn't, you know,

556
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: I didn't engage in any supplementary feeding when the experiment

557
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: was going on, like I could only feed them in

558
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: that context. But then once it was done, then it

559
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: could be you know, all once the study is over,

560
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: is it ethical to become friends with your participants if

561
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: the participant is a crow? Yes, the answer is yes,

562
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: and I did. Um. So I was always kind of

563
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: standing there, you know, with my my camera and my clipboard,

564
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: and then I would have volunteers come and they would be,

565
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 1: you know, my my sort of like murderers, sort as

566
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: big they put the masks on and all of that,

567
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: and just as a way of sort of keeping and

568
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: collecting data, even just as it related to how quickly

569
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: the crows would come to the food. Outside of you know,

570
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: the main funeral day, I always had that tripod and

571
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: that seemed to be the thing that really caught a

572
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: lot of people's attention. Actually, So you know, we we

573
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: ran into a fair number shenanigans during the funeral experiments

574
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: where we would have upset homeowners. I mean, you guys

575
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: were wearing like serial killer masks holding up dead crows

576
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: while we had to sign Katie, as you said, we

577
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: had those signs. Yeah, I mean, if someone's like has

578
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: like a big bloody knife and like a crazy clown mask.

579
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: But they have a sign like do not be alarmed

580
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: clown study. I'll instantly relax. It'll be fine, of course,

581
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 1: of course. Yeah, no, I I can't blame you, and

582
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: you know I couldn't. I didn't blame people at the

583
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: time either. I think, um, people absolutely have a right

584
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: to be curious. Uh and aware. Did you ever get

585
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: the cops called on you? I did frequently, actually, yeah,

586
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: And they eventually they would kind of be like, are

587
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: you dumb one of those people, and I'll be like,

588
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: and then you just sort of take my name and

589
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: and there was a few times. My favorite was I

590
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: was doing one of these near Magnusent Park, which is

591
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: a pretty big park in Seattle, well known. And again

592
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: like I have my my volunteer, and this particular volunteer

593
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: got me in the trouble the most because Joel, he

594
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: was a sweetheart. He actually ended up taking a taxidermy

595
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: class and being my main taxidermist for the rest of

596
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: my studies. He was invaluable. But he's like six, like nine,

597
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: it's just a huge dude. Uh. And he he really

598
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: likes or at the time he would wear like kind

599
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: of mostly black and camma, and so seeing him in

600
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: one of those masks really freaked people out. And I

601
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: remember we were doing one of these studies near Magnazine

602
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: and this old, older woman came up to me and

603
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: she was like, you know, demanding to know what are

604
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: you doing. And so I explained, you know, I'm I'm

605
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: a researcher with you, dub. We're doing this experiment. And

606
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: that was one of the tests that involved also a

607
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: stuffed redtail hawk. So there was a redtail hawk on

608
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: the ground not far from well. The hawks actually were

609
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: like lifelike mounts um so they're they're even more sort

610
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: of conspicuous because they're kind of standing right. And so

611
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: I'm pointing all this stuff out and I have my clipboard.

612
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: It's full of data. You know, we've got our signs on,

613
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: I have a tripod. And I finished explaining it to

614
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: her and she goes, I don't believe you. I'm selling

615
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: the cops. It's just like, wow, what an elaborate ruse.

616
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 1: Can you act? We had just made all that up,

617
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: and so, you know, it was it was never a

618
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: big deal. I mean, like, do you think like Satanists

619
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: really have like a printed out Excel spreadsheet, Like is

620
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: that I mean, I maybe, look, I think that, you know,

621
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: I think the actual Church of Satan is pretty pretty chill,

622
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: Like there's like an actual Church of Satan and they're

623
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: mostly their thing is like I think religious freedom. We

624
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 1: have freedom, freedom of speech. Yeah, and just making sure

625
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: that I'm sure they are like actual practicing occultists who

626
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: uh who like a spreadsheet. So I don't want to generalize,

627
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: but I think typically I don't, I don't know. I mean, like,

628
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: right to me, if you're into the occult and like

629
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: you like to be organized and you have spreadsheets and

630
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: data and you run q Q plots, like, let me

631
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: know if that's the whole thing in acol, let me

632
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: know to find that, just so I can s to,

633
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: you know, craft this description more accurately. We had a

634
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: lot of sort of funny run ins and and I

635
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: but I do like to always sort of take a

636
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: moment to appreciate that, you know, for me, those stories

637
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: of being out in the field and having the cops

638
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: called and them coming and asking a few questions is

639
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: something that you know was never sort of threatening and

640
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: I can laugh about now, but recognizing that that's absolutely

641
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: not true for a lot of people, particularly people of color,

642
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: and that really sucks. It sucks for me to imagine

643
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: that my whiteness made doing this research possible in a

644
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: way that I might not have otherwise. And so I

645
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: like to laugh about these stories, but I am careful.

646
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: I try and be careful of recognizing that there's lots

647
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: of contexts where those stories wouldn't be funny at all,

648
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: and that's something we need to work on. Yeah, exactly.

649
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: I mean, there's the black Birders movement that I definitely

650
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: encourage people to check out on Twitter because in the

651
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: wake of the Central Park in it where a black birder,

652
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: Christian Cooper, was threatened by this white lady who said

653
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: that she would call the cops on him and specifically

654
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: tell them that he's black. She was clearly using the

655
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 1: cops to threaten his safety and intimidate them just because

656
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: he asked her to put her dog on a leash.

657
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: Another thing, don't have your dogs off leash, guys, because

658
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: that's really bad for birds or cats or cats. Yeah,

659
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: cats are bad too, they like to eat birds. Just

660
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: keep your keep your pets up. I love cats and dogs,

661
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: but not great for birds. So keep them in check

662
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: there and this guy was just asking her to put

663
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: her dog on leash and she called the cops on

664
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: him instead, which, as we know in this country isn't

665
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 1: actual can threaten your life if you are a person

666
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: of color. So I think that, yeah, it is. It

667
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: is interesting where it's like it does. It's like it's

668
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: sort of you guys can get away with a lot

669
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: of occult seeming stuff through through privilege and warranted a

670
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: number of pretty strange and funny questions, from Accolt to

671
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: Pokemon Go and everything in between. There are people will

672
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: make up all kinds of stories when they say a

673
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: person with a camera and they're just judging you based

674
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: on the fact that you have a camera. There are

675
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: people in masks holding dead crows. It's very judgmental. It's

676
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know where people get off this

677
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Let's play another round of auditory guests

678
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: that Corvid, who do you suppose this is? That's a

679
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: carrion crow from the weather All Animal Rescue in the

680
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: UK saying hello. When we return, We're going to find

681
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: out how smart Corvid's really are. If I told you

682
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: this was a crow call, would you believe me. Well,

683
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: it certainly is, but it's no common crow or care

684
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: arian crow. It's the call of a new Caledonian crow

685
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: who happened to have quite a few tricks up their

686
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: sleeves or feathers. So we talked about your what it's

687
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: like to have done your crow funeral research, and how

688
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 1: it showed that they were able to learn people's faces.

689
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: We already knew that, but they were also able to

690
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: identify those faces as being dangerous, like they they responded differently.

691
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: If you're holding up the dead crow, they would freak

692
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: out there like this person is potentially dangerous. And they

693
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: also treated the location as a potential danger and were

694
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: more careful next time they came by. Even the allure

695
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: of cheetahs was not enough to get them to come

696
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: by without some caution. Yeah, and that, and that was

697
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: an important distinction because it would have actually been awesome

698
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: if um, the funeral event was enough to get them

699
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: to be like, Nope, I'm out of here, no peanuts

700
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: or cheetos from me. That would have lended itself to

701
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: a really easy see a useful management tool if there

702
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: are if there were situations, say you know where they've

703
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: been depredating on a sensitive species. If we could just

704
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: hang one of these for half an hour and take

705
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 1: it down and the crow stopped coming by, that would

706
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: be awesome. If scarecrows really worked, I don't think. I

707
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: think we would have solved that problem a long time ago.

708
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: That is absolutely true. So, yeah, it wasn't enough to

709
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: get them to completely evacuate, but they were cautious. Yeah.

710
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: Do you think that they can actually mourn their dead

711
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: or is it purely a survival instinct or is that

712
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: is even that distinction sort of fuzzy because it makes

713
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: me wonder like if our original like our mourning and

714
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: our fear of death and our sort of ritual around

715
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: death has something to do with self preservation that gets

716
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: extended into sort of these deep emotional places. So, just

717
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: from from your sort of observed asians, like, do you

718
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: think crows have like a a sense of death and

719
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: a sense of morning or do you think it is

720
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: that distinction hard to make at this point. I don't know,

721
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: and I'm really comfortable not knowing the answer to that question.

722
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: I think that we can be very confident that crows

723
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 1: use dead crows as a queue of risk and as

724
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: a learning opportunity, and I think it makes absolute sense

725
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: that for animals that do have really more ritualistic and

726
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: more emotionally invested responses, that that might have been the impetus,

727
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: right because we didn't go from nothing to you know,

728
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: a New Orleans funeral. There was a lot in between there,

729
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: and so so it makes sense that that first kind

730
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: of attentiveness might come from a place of self preservation.

731
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: But when we look at crows, I mean, these are

732
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: incredibly social animals, they're incredibly intelligent animals. When we look

733
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: at their brains, there's nothing we can point to to say,

734
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: we'll see here their missing this. This is why they

735
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: couldn't have the emotional intelligence of of a primate or

736
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: adulphin or human. They're just missing a chunk of brain

737
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: right there. Just that there's just it's just it's also

738
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: just not how brains work in general, Like you don't

739
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: like you can literally have a chunk of your brain

740
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: taken out and your brain is so it's called neuroplasticity,

741
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 1: that your brain can reorganize itself, that you actually regain

742
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: some of the abilities in certain cases, not always like

743
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: but you can actually regain abilities that are literally carved

744
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: out of your brain because it is a very complex

745
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: system in terms of evolution. It's true like as you

746
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: get like you, you do get like more additions onto

747
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: your brain, Like you get a prefrontal cortex, which is

748
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: very different from just having like, you know, a very

749
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: simple brain stem ponds madula and blagotta kind of set up.

750
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: But it is once you start to get to be

751
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: like a crow or human and your brain gets more

752
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: and more complex, and you do start to get the

753
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: like these more um kind of like integrated processes, it

754
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: is hard to just be like, uh, see the crow.

755
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: The crow brain is smaller than a human, so it

756
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: has to be dumb. It's just like our brain is

757
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: smaller than um. Like a blue whale. Blue whales have

758
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: a big brand just by volume. It's a huge I

759
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: feel like a blue whales brain is probably about as

760
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: big as like a child, yeah, a whole human child.

761
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: But you know, to say that a blue whale is

762
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: therefore much smarter than us, it's just kind of faulty reasoning.

763
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: It's all about relativity exactly, and humans and dolphins and

764
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: crows have a much bigger brand size relative to our

765
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: body size than we would expect So yeah, so you know,

766
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: crow brains. For all of the ways that they are different,

767
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: there isn't anything where we can say, oh, and the

768
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: fact that they're different in this way means that they

769
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: don't possess any kind of emotional intelligence. And at the

770
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 1: same time, you know, like I said, these are incredibly

771
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: social animals. They forge really long term relationships with one another.

772
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: I can how it would absolutely be valuable and adaptive

773
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: to have emotional commitments to their partners and to their flockmates.

774
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: At the same time, though, you know, having a deep

775
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: emotional investment, you know, we we I always start by

776
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: sort of asking what would be the adaptive value of

777
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: that and going into a long period of mourning. You know,

778
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 1: if you were a female, for example, you've just lost

779
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: your mate and you go into a long period of

780
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: mourning that precludes you from being able to take a

781
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: new partner and breed, that's probably not super helpful to you.

782
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: Right or morning you're lost, you know, kids for the season.

783
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: If it's early enough that you could attempt to remake

784
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: and lay another clutch, probably not super useful to spend

785
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 1: a bunch of time being super bummed out. So that's

786
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: why I'm kind of in the spot where you know,

787
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're thinking, but I'm totally open

788
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: to the possibility that we learn that crows are much

789
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: more emotionally aware than than we currently understand about them.

790
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: To that point, I want to talk about some of

791
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: the surprising ways that corvid show intelligence because I think

792
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: we have this sense of like a, you know, like

793
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 1: humans were the most intelligent, and then like primates are

794
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: really really smart, and then maybe after that like dolphins,

795
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: and then maybe parrots like Alex the parrot was pretty smart.

796
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: I think that people don't realize how incredibly, almost spookily

797
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: intelligent corvids can be. One of the things that like

798
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: we use as sort of this very rough measure of

799
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: intelligence is tool used because like that requires very complicated

800
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: cognition to be able to pick up a thing and

801
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: use it for another task, Like it just requires so

802
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: many kind of parallel processing systems in your brain that

803
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: it indicates some amount of higher cognition. New Caledonian crows

804
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: are really interesting. I think we've talked about them on

805
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,919
Speaker 1: the podcast before, but they look very much like an

806
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: American crow. They are found in New Caledonia, which is

807
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: an archipelago in the southwest Pacific Ocean. I mean, maybe

808
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 1: this is a question for you. Do you know, like

809
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: if there's a way to be able to distinguish visually

810
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: a New Caledonian crow from an American crow? I do so.

811
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: New Caledonian crows look like they're smiling, and the reason

812
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: for that is actually very much tied to their tool use.

813
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: They have this curve to their bill that gives the

814
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 1: bottom part of the bill, which is called the lower mandible,

815
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: sort of this like a little bit chalkier appearance, and

816
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: it kind of curves up and that what gives them.

817
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: That's what gives them their sort of smiley appearance. And

818
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: the reason that their bill has that particular shape is

819
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: actually that it's really important in allowing them the dexterity

820
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 1: that they need to manufacture tools. Gives them a set

821
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: appliers on their faces exactly if you could, like if

822
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: you had clower is on your face, you would also

823
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: be grinning all the time. Or maybe it be horrified.

824
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but crows are very happy about it.

825
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: Right in. These New Caledonian crows, like they love to

826
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: eat grubs and they will use sticks and little any

827
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: stick like tool that they can find to get grubs

828
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: out of wood. And now that like the easiest way

829
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: that they do this is they just take sort of

830
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: a straight stick, they put it in a hole, and

831
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: the grubs will instinctively bite at this intrusion, and then

832
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: they fish it out like catching a fish on a hook,

833
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: because the grub is biting down and they pull it out.

834
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: But that doesn't always work in every circumstance that they

835
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 1: are looking for grubs, Like the crows will actually take

836
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: one of these sticks and modify it so that it

837
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: works as a better grub extraction tool and can fit

838
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: into different spaces and can pick them up more effectively.

839
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: So they use very like you mentioned with their because

840
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: I didn't know it made them look like they were smiling,

841
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: and that's like the reason that's so cool. But yeah,

842
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: they will use those weeks to do this very precise ripping,

843
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: cutting and bending techniques on the stick to create basically

844
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: these like custom tools to be able to fish out grubs,

845
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: which I think we had previously only seen this in

846
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: like there there was Betty the captive New Caledonian crow,

847
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: so we had seen that in captivity, but it was

848
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: only relatively recently that we saw that they were also

849
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: doing this in the wild, which is really exciting because

850
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: like animals and captivity will behave differently than their counterparts

851
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: in the wild. So to find out that they actually

852
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: do it in the while, just like all these crows

853
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 1: just making making their little hooks and tools and getting

854
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: the grubs, that's really cool. It is, yeah, and it's

855
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: so so just to give a little bit more background

856
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: on Betty since you brought her up, so Betty was,

857
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: like you said, she was a wild caught New Caledonian crow,

858
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: and we had no prior to Betty that New Caledonian

859
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: crows make tools, and the one we were most familiar

860
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: with was they'll you're off the edges of pandanus leaves,

861
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: and the pandanas plant is a really rigid leaf. Picture

862
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 1: kind of like like an aloe leaf. It's it's not

863
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: that thick, but picture something rigid and serrated on the edge,

864
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: and so they'll shave off little, you know, the sides

865
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: of them and then they'll, like you say, they'll kind

866
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: of shave them down until they're the right width and length,

867
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: and then they'll stick those in and let the grips grab.

868
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: But our challenge as um animal behaviorists is there's a

869
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: lot of things animals do that can look on its

870
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 1: surface really sophisticated, but isn't necessarily guided cognitively, right, Like,

871
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of wit Like antswer a great example.

872
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: Ants did not go and get degrees in engineering school,

873
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: and yet they can build bridges. And it's not because

874
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: they understand physics. It's because each one executes a very

875
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: simple job and when you put that together, you get

876
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: something sophisticated. Right Like at the most base examples, there's

877
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: this I think it's as slimal, but it's very very

878
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: tiny organism that actually creates like each of them come

879
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: together to create a slug, like a multi unit slug

880
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: that's made out of a bunch of individuals, and then

881
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 1: it creates like when they are on a hostile environment,

882
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: this slug will spontaneously form a stem that reaches up

883
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: like a platform, and the ones at the very top

884
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: are these spores that can then like basically get sent

885
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 1: off to a better environment. And so it seems like

886
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: they are planning this out like Okay, we're in a

887
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: bad spot right now, we will form this collective and

888
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: then create this stem and then like send off like

889
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: the survivors like astronauts off to a better place, and

890
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: it seems like, oh, they're really all altruistic and planning. No,

891
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: it's all just it's basically piling on behavior that ends

892
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: up turning into what looks like this very complex thing,

893
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 1: and it's like it really is every one of them

894
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 1: for itself trying to pile on the other one, similar

895
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: to like how piranhas. It's like, oh, they like to

896
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: take turns eating, carry on. No, they just are all

897
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: kind of like piling on, and once one of them

898
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: gets a mouthful of food, they'll pull back to eat

899
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: the food and get pushed out of the way by

900
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: another piranha who also wants to eat the food. So

901
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: it's like intelligent behavior can just be crowd behavior that's

902
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: like totally self driven, not altruistic at all, not no

903
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: forethought at all, just a little what it looks like

904
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: automaton doing a single behavior, but then when you get

905
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of them together or and then you can

906
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: kind of extrapolate that to an actual animal, like just

907
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: doing trial and air over and over again. But it's

908
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: just one behavior that they repeat and repeat and repeat.

909
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: But it's not they're not really thinking it through exactly.

910
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: So the experiment with Betty was, Okay, how much does

911
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: she really understand why the tool she needs works. So

912
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 1: what they presented Betty and they did this experiment in pairs.

913
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: So there was Betty and there was actually a second

914
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: bird in the cage with her, and they would give

915
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: them this little cylinder and at the bottom of the

916
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: cylinder was a little bucket of food. And it's too

917
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: far down and too narrow for the crows to actually

918
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: stick their heads in and pick up the bucket. So

919
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: they presented them with two tool options. One was a

920
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 1: hook and one was a straight piece of wire, and

921
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: and um, this was the first time that Betty and

922
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: her cage mate, as far as I know, had been

923
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: presented with those particular materials. And so clearly the goal

924
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: is can they assess that the correct tool for that

925
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: job is the hook. Unfortunately for the Peru, Betty and

926
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: the researchers at the time, or initially her cage mate

927
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: picked up the hook and then flew away and was like,

928
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this stupid experiment. I'm gonna

929
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 1: go sit in the corner with my hook. And so

930
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: the researchers I'm sure are like that. Turls are always

931
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: kind of screwing up our experiments, and now you know,

932
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do? And her Betty, she's hungry

933
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: and she has this wired there's a great view, you

934
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: can google it. And she's poking at the food at

935
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: the bottom and it's not working. And then she sort

936
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: of takes her hook and she pins it to the

937
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: bottom of the cylinder and she starts wrapping it around

938
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: and book up pups. Betty with a pook that she

939
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: has just spontaneously made, which was not even what the

940
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: study was about, because they just wasn't they wanted to

941
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 1: see if they could distinguish, like if they could see like, okay,

942
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: the straight one doesn't work, I have to use the hook.

943
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 1: They weren't looking to see if they'd make their own hook.

944
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: And Betty's like, pulls down my bird seed exactly. So

945
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: then she fishes down in there, she pulls out the bucket,

946
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: and like you said, we were like, oh my god,

947
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: don not only does she get it, but she actual

948
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: spontaneously made it. But then, as you said, more recently,

949
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: we put little backpacks with cameras on New Caledonian crows

950
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: and we sent them off, and we realized they freaking

951
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: make hooks all the time. And I just want to

952
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: take moment because this is really significant. So when it

953
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: comes to tools, tools and animals, the first thing to

954
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,399
Speaker 1: understand is that, yes, using tools is rare. Less than

955
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: one percent of all of the animals on planet Earth

956
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: used tools. However, that one percent comprises a huge diversity

957
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: of organisms. So you have animals like chimpanzees and people,

958
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: well you also have like fish there and sea otters,

959
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: animals that you know are are using an object for

960
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: an you know, a sort of a novel purpose to

961
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,919
Speaker 1: benefit them, right, And like woodpecker finches are I don't

962
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: want to be mean to them, but an arguably much

963
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: less intelligent bird that also uses a twig or a

964
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: cactus spine to basically impale a grub. But there's no

965
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: evidence that shows that they really fully understand like how

966
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: the tool works, other than just like I take this thing,

967
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: I stick it in, I get a thing out. Um. Again,

968
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: that's sort of more like what we're talking about earlier,

969
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: where I mean, rats are pretty intelligent, but you can

970
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: train them to press a lever and receive some reward

971
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that they understand the mechanics of

972
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: a lever, like how that lever works. Similarly, you can

973
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: We've studied chimpanzees and we see that they actually make

974
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: a pretty complex physics calculation when they are using a

975
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: tool like to reach something. But when we've tested them

976
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: to see if they have an understanding of math, absolutely not.

977
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: They do not have an understanding of math. So just

978
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: because they have an innate understanding of physics, like a baby,

979
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: like a human baby, I keep jumping from animal to

980
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: animal to animals. But again, like a human baby actually

981
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,919
Speaker 1: has an innate understanding of physics. You have. You show

982
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: a baby a little ball roll up to a big ball,

983
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: and the baby expects like the little ball to just

984
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: kind of like bounce off the big ball and not

985
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: move the big ball because it has this understanding. If

986
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: you show a baby a little ball roll into a

987
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: big ball and it flies away, the baby stares at

988
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: it because it's little mind is blone, because it's like

989
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: I was not expecting that. The baby doesn't have a

990
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 1: physics degree. The baby doesn't understand anything about conservation of momentum.

991
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: The baby has an innate, kind of instinctive understanding of

992
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: certain physics that is sort of built into its brain,

993
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have an understanding, a meta cognition of it.

994
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: So when an animal uses a tool and shows a

995
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: meta cognition of it, where it's like it not only

996
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: uses the tool, it understands why certain tools work and

997
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: why other tools don't, and like what it needs to

998
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: do to modify that tool to get it to work.

999
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: That's so exciting because that shows much more cognition than

1000
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: you know, simply like I have a stick and when

1001
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: I jam the stick over and over sometimes yea food time. Yeah.

1002
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: And so that's the distinction I really like to drive

1003
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: home to people is yes, a very few number of

1004
00:57:55,640 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: species use tools, but there are there's very levels of

1005
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: understanding in terms of how those animals actually cognitively understand

1006
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: these tools. But then the next step and the reason

1007
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: why New Caledonian crows have a stop dead in our

1008
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: tracks are there are only two animals that make tools,

1009
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: and that's a huge cognitively using tools and making tools.

1010
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: And that's kind of that um like what you were saying,

1011
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: that ability to actually have the intuition of how do

1012
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: I modify something for a very specific task that is

1013
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: much more challenging, and chimpanzees do it right, And the

1014
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: two animals are primates and and the crows right. And

1015
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: I think I'm waiting for primatologists to correct me on this,

1016
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: but I think chimpanzees are the only primates that make

1017
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: tools in the wild. I think there's some evidence of

1018
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: other primates like orangutans being able to modify things in

1019
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: captive settings. They don't. Yeah, Orientans like model it's not

1020
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: necessarily a tool. It's like they make a bed and

1021
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: they will modify branches to create a foundation for the

1022
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: bed in a kind of specific way. And I think

1023
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: that it starts to get like a little bit fuzzy,

1024
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: like is that an actual tool, because they're not then

1025
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: using that bed to get another thing. They're just birds

1026
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:23,919
Speaker 1: make beds. So it's really special that this a bird,

1027
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: this animal that is, like you said, a dinosaur, is

1028
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: so different from us in you know, so many ways,

1029
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: is doing something that is incredibly unique and cognitively advanced.

1030
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: Because that is a level of insight and understanding that

1031
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: we should all be watching our backs around the crows

1032
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: because it is impressive, especially you, because you had a

1033
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: whole study where you're like, hey, here's a dead crow. Everybody. See.

1034
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: That's why I was always a friendly person, because I

1035
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: know I was planted ahead like the crow. I was like,

1036
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: I am not going to be making hordes of enemies here.

1037
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: There's gonna be like a Kaiser says, a moment where

1038
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: they realize you were the mastermind the whole time. But

1039
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: another another interesting thing, and I'm actually going to talk

1040
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: about the Eurasian magpie. There's some research that suggests that

1041
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: Eurasian magpies can possibly recognize themselves in mirrors. Um and

1042
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 1: so this is an whole interesting thing that I have

1043
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: very complex opinions about. It's the mirror test. And this

1044
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 1: is the test where you basically plunk something down in

1045
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 1: front of a mirror and you're like, okay, does this

1046
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: animal recognize itself in the mirror? And you will put generally,

1047
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: how it stands like you put a dot or a

1048
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 1: mark on the animal without them knowing, like they're either

1049
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 1: like sort of sedated, or you do it stealthily so

1050
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: they don't know you've put something on them. And you

1051
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: have a control group where you have you put a

1052
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: dot on them or something, but it's invisible, so it's

1053
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: like it's not the feeling of the dot and or mark,

1054
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: and then you put them in front of a mirror

1055
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: and then you see if they like look in the

1056
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: mirror and they see the mark in the mirror and

1057
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: then recognize, oh, that's on me, and then try to

1058
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 1: remove it. I mean, I'll get in more about my

1059
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: opinions about this test later, but it's an interesting kind

1060
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: of human centric way of thinking about metacognition, Like we

1061
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: recognize ourselves. We see ourselves in the mirror, we recognize

1062
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: that as us, and then therefore you know, we have

1063
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: a self awareness, which I think it may be a

1064
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: little more complex than that. But in terms of animals

1065
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: who have quote unquote past the mirror test includes obviously humans, chimpanzees, dolphins,

1066
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 1: and elephants. There's a little bit of fuzziness here because

1067
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: you'll have some individuals that do it, and then but

1068
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: then you try other other animals in the same species

1069
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: and then they won't do it. So it's kind of

1070
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: a from individual to individual. But when studied, Eurasian magpies

1071
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: also seemed to pass this test. So when colorful stickers

1072
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: are put on their throats and in the same setup

1073
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: that I described before, and they see themselves in the mirror.

1074
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: They scratched at their next to try to remove the stickers,

1075
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: which indicates that they have some awareness of like there

1076
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: having some control over their body and then recognizing it

1077
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: in the mirror. But one thing that I think is

1078
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: interesting to me about this is we've tested it in

1079
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: a lot of like very social animals, like very highly

1080
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: socially emotionally intelligent animals like chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins, and and

1081
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: then these magpies, like they're all very socially minded. I

1082
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: wonder your opinion on on this test, and because I

1083
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: think sometimes people jump to the conclusion that, oh, if

1084
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: they can recognize themselves in the mirror, they have this

1085
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: concept of self whereas like, how how much of it

1086
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 1: is them recognizing themselves in the mirror, and how much

1087
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: of it is and under just a simple understanding of

1088
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: like the physics of a reflection, how much of it

1089
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: is like a self awareness do you think or is there?

1090
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: Because I'm curious to know if there have been studies

1091
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 1: to see like how they respond not to a mirror

1092
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: but just too like one of their cohorts, like another

1093
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: bird with that mark in the same place as their own. Like,

1094
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,919
Speaker 1: do they just have very advanced like mirror neurons where

1095
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: they like they think that the image is another bird,

1096
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 1: but then they're so sympathetic to that they're like, oh,

1097
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: I better check my neck to kind of thing. So

1098
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: I was wondering what your opinion is on all of this,

1099
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: So I um, I'm with you, Katie, and that people.

1100
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 1: I often find myself confronted with people who are really

1101
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 1: excited about the mirror tests, who are really excited that

1102
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: these Eurasian magpies passed. And I always feel like in

1103
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: the Debbi downer because number one, because when we say

1104
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: they passed, we mean that too. There was two birds

1105
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: that fast the mirror desk is not a great sample

1106
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: side being his birds. And then they actually ended up

1107
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 1: trying to repeat this study in jackdaws and they did

1108
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: it the exact name ways, and jackdaws are another corvid,

1109
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, they're another bird in the corvid family. They

1110
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:16,560
Speaker 1: used to be in the Corvius genus, but we just

1111
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: kicked them out and they did the exact name studies

1112
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: and in those birds, even the control birds picked up

1113
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 1: on the spots, which suggests that maybe those magpies had

1114
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: a little bit more tactile sensory awareness of these than

1115
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: than it showed. We've also done this study mirror tests

1116
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: in New Caledonian crows, and New Caledonian crows are terrible

1117
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 1: at it. Parrots are terrible at it. Anybody who in

1118
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: the springtime has had a crow or a raven attacking

1119
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: their side mirror in their car or their the windows

1120
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: in their house probably are very familiar with the fact

1121
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: that by and large these birds are actually really bad

1122
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: at it. But what's really interesting and gets that one

1123
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: of the questions you asked new it's not at least

1124
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 1: in New Caledonian crows because they don't understand mirrors conceptually.

1125
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: So New Caledonian crows can use mirrors to understand that

1126
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: something they see in a mirror is actually happening behind them.

1127
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: Oh that's so interesting, right, So they seem to understand

1128
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: the properties of a mirror. So maybe it is just

1129
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: a very sort of like anthrocentric, you know, because we

1130
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: express self directed behaviors, you know, trying to look. So

1131
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 1: the main things that when we put animals in front

1132
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: of mirrors, the themes we see in terms of self

1133
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 1: directed behaviors are we want to look at our mouths,

1134
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: and we want to look at our genitals, the two

1135
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 1: areas that we that we have a hard time investigating otherwise.

1136
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 1: And that's what dolphins do, that's what primates do. That's

1137
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 1: maybe that's what's going on with all these zoom called shenanigans.

1138
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 1: But you know, birds only have the one hole and

1139
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 1: it's covered with feathers generally, and their mouths aren't that

1140
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 1: exciting something. You know, maybe they just aren't that interest

1141
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: did in those self directed behaviors. But there was a

1142
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: study that just came out a few weeks ago that

1143
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: took a very different approach to try and tease out consciousness.

1144
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: They went right to the source. They went right to

1145
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 1: the brain to look at how the brain responded to

1146
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: these these different kinds of scenarios they were getting at.

1147
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: And based on the timing of when these neurons were firing,

1148
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 1: they were able to pretty convincingly show that they weren't

1149
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 1: just responding in kind of an automatic way when they're

1150
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,919
Speaker 1: in front of a mirror. No. So this this left

1151
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: the mirror completely out of it. It had them trained

1152
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 1: so that they knew if they saw lights to pack,

1153
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: and then they gave them a series where the lights

1154
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 1: were sometimes really faint and sometimes really bright, and they

1155
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: looked at what their brains were doing when they were

1156
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: presented with these faint lights, and based on kind of

1157
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 1: the timing of when the neurons fired and whether or

1158
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: not they fired, they were able to ascertain that actually

1159
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: they were basically showing what we call a subjective consciousness.

1160
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: They were really sort of like they were experiencing the

1161
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 1: brightness of light right in a way that suggested a

1162
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 1: conscious appreciation of it and not just like a reactionary

1163
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: appreciation of it. It was a pretty complex study. I'm

1164
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: hoping to write about it for my blog. I've reached

1165
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: out to the folks that ran it, because I tell

1166
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,080
Speaker 1: you what, I read that study like twice and so

1167
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: much of it just went right over my head, and

1168
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: I've already got like questions, Yeah, right, it's it's a

1169
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: complicated study for the listeners. I think one thing to

1170
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: point out is that you can have an organism react

1171
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 1: to light like a stimulus. Like you can have a nematode,

1172
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:49,160
Speaker 1: which is as close to having no brain as you

1173
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 1: can get almost with an animal, and a nematode will

1174
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 1: react to light. It has a very very primitive eye

1175
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: spot that can react to light and dark, and and

1176
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: it will react light, that doesn't mean it experiences the light.

1177
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 1: When you look, you know, any one of us, like

1178
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 1: looks at outside at the light, or you you look

1179
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: at a TV screen and you see these lights, you

1180
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: have all these sort of automated reaction to the light

1181
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:20,600
Speaker 1: where your people constricts, but you also have a conscious

1182
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:27,799
Speaker 1: experience of light. And quantifying that in animals is really

1183
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 1: really hard because we don't even know how to quantify

1184
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 1: consciousness and humans yet other than just being assured that

1185
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 1: another person is saying like, hey, I do experience seeing

1186
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: the light, and you just got to trust them because

1187
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 1: you can't get inside their head. So it is really interesting.

1188
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really interested to see more about this study

1189
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: because like being able to show that like there are

1190
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 1: parts of the brain that light up basically when you're

1191
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: when you're having sort of a not just an immediate

1192
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: risk sponse, but an actual sort of experience of like

1193
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 1: of the quality is like pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah, So

1194
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 1: so that's probably going to be a much better bet

1195
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 1: than the mirror tests at addressing consciousness and birds because

1196
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 1: we just have such a mixed bag of results with

1197
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 1: these mirror tests, and you know, maybe it's just not

1198
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 1: a relevant way for these animals, you know, for every

1199
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:26,759
Speaker 1: animal to demonstrate that it has a sense of self.

1200
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: It's it's something where I think some of these tests

1201
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: that like we're trying to see whether an animal is

1202
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:36,639
Speaker 1: intelligent or conscious is really very human egocentric. Like we're

1203
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 1: just so like, oh, it's got to be it's got

1204
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,479
Speaker 1: to think like a human to have that self awareness.

1205
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that's true. Yeah, And that is

1206
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,640
Speaker 1: definitely our challenge, right as objective as we try and

1207
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 1: be a scientist, we are ultimately you know, limited by

1208
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 1: our our own lens and our imaginations for how we

1209
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 1: can ask questions, and our imaginations are very much sort

1210
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 1: of influenced by our human nous and and culturally too, right,

1211
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:04,720
Speaker 1: so how somebody in one part of the world and

1212
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 1: from one culture may approach that question might be really

1213
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: different than somebody else, Which is a great reason to

1214
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 1: want to really expand, um the kinds of representations and science,

1215
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:18,879
Speaker 1: because being able to bring a lot of different styles

1216
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:22,240
Speaker 1: of thinking into the room is really helpful because collectively,

1217
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, we we need that because we are already

1218
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 1: limited as people, absolutely and also just this is another

1219
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 1: thing I like to talk about on the show, is

1220
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: looking into cultural history and not having a sort of

1221
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 1: snobbery of like, oh, you know, as scientists, we can

1222
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 1: never listen to um sort of like folklore or other

1223
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:46,680
Speaker 1: cultures because that's unscientific. It's like, well, it may not

1224
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: be enough for a study. But when you actually look

1225
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:56,080
Speaker 1: into things like anecdotal observations of birds of prey, like

1226
01:10:56,120 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 1: in Australia picking up sticks and setting fires, we don't

1227
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:03,440
Speaker 1: have we have. I don't think there's been a definitive

1228
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,879
Speaker 1: study proving that yet. But if we had just ignored

1229
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 1: aboriginal observations and like, no, there's no way a bird

1230
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:14,640
Speaker 1: would be smart enough to set fire like or intentionally

1231
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 1: spread fire, then we may not have opened up this

1232
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 1: whole avenue of research of like, hey, actually, there's a

1233
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: chance that these birds are intentionally or not spreading fire

1234
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: by picking up twigs from a wildfire somewhere else and

1235
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 1: then spreading it to somewhere else and then reaping the

1236
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: rewards by chasing all the prey items that are fleeing.

1237
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: And so I think, yeah, definitely, when we close our

1238
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 1: ears and eyes to other perspectives, other human perspectives were

1239
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 1: really shooting ourselves in the foot when it comes to

1240
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: scientific research. And I say that as a podcaster who

1241
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: doesn't do research, scolding you're scientists. It's absolutely true, and

1242
01:11:57,360 --> 01:12:00,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's very relevant to the funeral stuff. We

1243
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,760
Speaker 1: were you know, what we were doing was asking very

1244
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: specific novel questions, but the idea that corvids respond strongly

1245
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 1: to their dead, we were absolutely not even close to

1246
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:14,799
Speaker 1: the first people to to discuss that. You can find

1247
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,680
Speaker 1: stories about it in the Koran for example. I mean,

1248
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 1: human beings as as a species collectively have been very

1249
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 1: aware of this, uh and it it's you know, it's

1250
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 1: a pretty harmful, very colonialist approach to ignore traditional knowledge

1251
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,800
Speaker 1: and then claim discovery, and we repeat things that have

1252
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:37,840
Speaker 1: been around for years. So it's really important for us

1253
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 1: to to listen to those sources of traditional knowledge and

1254
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: to you know, give them credit as amazing naturalists and

1255
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 1: as really important sources of information. When there is that

1256
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 1: kind of overlap between that cultural knowledge and then when

1257
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 1: it meets how we may be scientifically want to parse

1258
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 1: a particular question. We are always using old assumptions and

1259
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 1: old information that we have in order to build the

1260
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:09,559
Speaker 1: questions that we can actually scientifically quantify. So it's why

1261
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 1: would we ignore anybody of knowledge just because oh, well

1262
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: this hasn't you know, this isn't like scientifics like well no,

1263
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 1: but neither is a bunch of other assumptions that we

1264
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 1: make about nature that hasn't been parsed and picked apart

1265
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:30,640
Speaker 1: by actual experimentations and actual research observations. It makes me

1266
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 1: think about too, like our cultural understanding of crows and

1267
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:40,680
Speaker 1: ravens and other corvid's, because I think we have this

1268
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,240
Speaker 1: sense of them, Oh they're kind of spooky and they're

1269
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 1: bad omens, and that's been such a prominent thing, like

1270
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: you know, especially in the West, like this idea that

1271
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:54,639
Speaker 1: like crows and ravens are our omens or or evil

1272
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 1: or occult, like people thinking that you're doing some occult

1273
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 1: business because I mean, to be fair, are having a

1274
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:04,599
Speaker 1: dead crow is a little little fuff, little fun, but

1275
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 1: it is when you actually look into it, Uh, there

1276
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:13,439
Speaker 1: are that is not the universal cultural depiction of crows

1277
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 1: or ravens at all. In fact, in a lot of

1278
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:19,760
Speaker 1: cultures they are seen as they can be highly intelligent,

1279
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,599
Speaker 1: they can be like in myths like as like highly

1280
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:28,400
Speaker 1: intelligent like tricksters or or thinkers. They can be um

1281
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 1: you know, actually the opposite, like good omens signs of

1282
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 1: abundance and of of good luck. It's not necessarily separated

1283
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 1: by like region, because like corvids are a cosmopolitan species,

1284
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 1: are found all over the world, you know, from China

1285
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:50,439
Speaker 1: to ancient Celtic culture. Crows were actually good, Like they

1286
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 1: were good omens. They weren't necessarily negative. You know. I

1287
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 1: think obviously we we appreciate crows now and I think

1288
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 1: they're they're not as maligned these days as they used

1289
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: to be. But it is something to consider when it's like,

1290
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 1: you know, you imagine if we had only relied on

1291
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 1: one cultural understanding of crows and an unchanging idea that

1292
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 1: they're that they're bad and evil, like, we would never

1293
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 1: find out how intelligent and and amazing and emotionally deep

1294
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: that they are. Yeah, it's one of my favorite things

1295
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 1: about crows is because of their proximity to us and

1296
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:32,360
Speaker 1: their cosmopolitan nous, they are really incorporated into the mythology

1297
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 1: and the creation stories of almost all peoples around the world.

1298
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:38,600
Speaker 1: And it's pretty you know, I don't look at it

1299
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 1: as a bad thing that they have really different reputations

1300
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 1: depending on where in the world they are. I think

1301
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:46,799
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting aspect of them that, like you mentioned,

1302
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, in ancient Greece they were symbols of love.

1303
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: In China, they were symbols of prophecy and luck. In

1304
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 1: Hiata storytelling traditions, which is a tribe in the Coast

1305
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:04,160
Speaker 1: Salish read gen they were ravens were ultimate creators. Um.

1306
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 1: So it's it's just really amazing how much humans and

1307
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 1: corvids are sort of inextricably linked, and the way that

1308
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:16,479
Speaker 1: we've really used them to understand and tell stories about

1309
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 1: how the world came to be and what it means.

1310
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:21,600
Speaker 1: Often when we think about our relations to animals, we

1311
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:26,719
Speaker 1: think about um domesticated animals or pets, not necessarily animals

1312
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 1: that we haven't domesticated that are not pets, you know,

1313
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: as cool as they are as cool any bird caretaker

1314
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 1: will tell you that ravens and crows do not make

1315
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 1: good pets. They are they're not. They are very cute.

1316
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 1: Of course, everyone would love to have a fun friend

1317
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 1: and a pet raven, but it's they just are too.

1318
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 1: They're so strong willed, like they have they have their

1319
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: own thing going on. They want to do their own stuff.

1320
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 1: They don't really want to they they're very intelligent, and

1321
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 1: you think, well, then that means they can be an

1322
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 1: untrainable animal. Is not an unintelligent animal. It's one that

1323
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 1: sees no reason to meet drains exactly. Yeah, And crows

1324
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:13,559
Speaker 1: and ravens really are in terms of pet pets are

1325
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 1: really just sort of two year olds, kind of at

1326
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: their most candy hopped up moment, but that can fly

1327
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:24,040
Speaker 1: and are smarter and never grow out of it. And

1328
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,040
Speaker 1: sharp clause and I'm sharp clause. Maybe not as much

1329
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 1: as a raptor, but you know, they can make you

1330
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:35,760
Speaker 1: bleed to believe you me so yeah, not not good

1331
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 1: for pets. Not good for pets. The wonderful thing is

1332
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter because wild birds are generally speaking, very

1333
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:47,480
Speaker 1: open to companionships. And it will have a few more boundaries,

1334
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 1: but those boundaries keep everybody safer. But you can still

1335
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 1: have these really wonderful and intimate relationships with wild birds

1336
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 1: where they learned to recognize you and come with you,

1337
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 1: and they maybe even bring you presence every once in

1338
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: a while. I saw I saw it. It was so

1339
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 1: funny because I was actually looking through Snopes because I

1340
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 1: was trying to find if there were some chrow myths

1341
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 1: that we should debunk, and I decided not to do that.

1342
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:13,719
Speaker 1: But I found this article about someone who was thought

1343
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 1: that they were getting presents from from some I think

1344
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:20,479
Speaker 1: it was crows, like a little some pine or was

1345
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:23,240
Speaker 1: it the pop can? It was the pop lids on

1346
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 1: the the soda can lids on the And guess who

1347
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 1: was interviewed in the article I saw you was like, hey,

1348
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 1: whole circle to find out if they were actually because

1349
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,040
Speaker 1: the person was saying, like, well, we'll leave out food

1350
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: for them, and like, you know, we seem to have

1351
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:41,840
Speaker 1: this they really are interested in what our kids are

1352
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 1: doing and they have this friendly relationship. And then they

1353
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 1: left these pine fronds like stuck in a tab like

1354
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: that you'd get off of a soda can and then

1355
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:52,240
Speaker 1: just like left them there, and like are they making

1356
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:56,600
Speaker 1: us presents? Uh? And I think like ultimately the answer is,

1357
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:01,960
Speaker 1: like who knows exactly. They definitely leave things behind in

1358
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 1: places where they're routinely fed. The question is is it

1359
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 1: an act of gratitude or is it just that these

1360
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:11,760
Speaker 1: birds are curious and sometimes carry things around and then

1361
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 1: leave them because something better was there that they made.

1362
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,280
Speaker 1: All right, So if you trick or treat, which I

1363
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 1: know is curtailed this year because of the pandemic, but like,

1364
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 1: you're not necessarily guaranteed like to be able to go

1365
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:28,240
Speaker 1: trick or treat with a crow, Like they may leave

1366
01:19:28,320 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 1: you something, or they may just yell at you, or

1367
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 1: they may just yell at you. And I will tell you, Um,

1368
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 1: I have paid friends with many crow in my time,

1369
01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 1: and I've I've never gotten a present. So that's my

1370
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 1: main evidence for that. It can't be gratitude. At least

1371
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 1: at least you didn't get a present, if you know

1372
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:49,719
Speaker 1: what I mean on your head a present, Yeah, because

1373
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: that that can also And actually, since you brought it up,

1374
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,880
Speaker 1: I will just tell people you want to include this

1375
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,040
Speaker 1: U to be careful because one of the reasons it

1376
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 1: is important to make boundaries with crows is that every

1377
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:04,599
Speaker 1: once in a while you'll get one that can get

1378
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 1: really aggressive about wanting to get fed, and they will

1379
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:09,120
Speaker 1: come and give you a tap on the head and

1380
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 1: it's not usually enough to cause to break skin, but

1381
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:14,960
Speaker 1: it is scary and it doesn't feel great. So that's

1382
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,400
Speaker 1: a good reason. You know that throwing a few peanuts

1383
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:19,960
Speaker 1: here and there. Totally fine most birds, but if you

1384
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 1: see you know, don't don't try and coax these birds

1385
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 1: into hand feeding because once we sort of break down those,

1386
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:28,800
Speaker 1: you know, all of the barriers, if you have a

1387
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 1: hyper aggressive crow, you can end up leading it into

1388
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: a situation where it will ultimately be hurt or euthanis

1389
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 1: because it's scaring people. Just just respectful boundaries. It's not

1390
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:42,760
Speaker 1: it's you're not a You're not a Disney princess. Who's

1391
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 1: gonna like have a bunch of crows a light on

1392
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 1: your shoulders without consequently, right, I know, and I've tried,

1393
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 1: so you take it from me, crow expert, that is

1394
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:56,760
Speaker 1: not in anyone's future. I think that's actually a really

1395
01:20:56,800 --> 01:20:59,639
Speaker 1: good point because I think it is an important thing

1396
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 1: where I really want to encourage people to enjoy nature

1397
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 1: and not feel afraid, like not feel like, oh, I

1398
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 1: can't interact with nature at all, otherwise I'm gonna ruin

1399
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 1: something or I'm gonna get hurt. Um. But on the

1400
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 1: other hand, it's just like you know, just there are

1401
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 1: certain boundaries that you need to maintain, like you uh,

1402
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:22,840
Speaker 1: in general, like you know, don't Although we talked about

1403
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:25,640
Speaker 1: the cheetah study. I wouldn't recommend necessarily going out and

1404
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 1: handing cheetos out to crows, as much as they might

1405
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 1: love it, It's not probably the healthiest thing. Kaylee only

1406
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:34,639
Speaker 1: used a light sprinkle for her study, just a light seasoning.

1407
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 1: Maybe that's something that's hard for humans to get comfortable with,

1408
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 1: just co existing with an animal that we can't tame,

1409
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 1: that we can't use, but that can live alongside us

1410
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:50,519
Speaker 1: and be friendly with us, but we can't own. And

1411
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 1: I think we just have to like maybe relax, not

1412
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:57,960
Speaker 1: be such control freaks, just let that relationship be you know,

1413
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: just mutual respect. Yeah, exactly. Think of it a little

1414
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:05,479
Speaker 1: bit like approaching a friendship with your boss, right, Like

1415
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 1: you can be the boss. Crow is the boss, right,

1416
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:11,920
Speaker 1: you can be cordial and friendly, you know, d you know,

1417
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,760
Speaker 1: a kind gesture here and there, but you know, boundaries

1418
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:18,000
Speaker 1: are important, you don't you don't want to cross too many,

1419
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:20,600
Speaker 1: Like you don't want them like following you on Facebook

1420
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 1: and coming to your house all the time. That would

1421
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 1: be weird. So yeah, so you want to just have

1422
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 1: that nice, friendly relationship, but you also want to be

1423
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:30,040
Speaker 1: able to be like, you know what, but I'm busy

1424
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 1: today and not have it be a thing a polite

1425
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 1: business casual relationship with crows. Right, yes, I love that

1426
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 1: business casual. You have a crow, your business card, payper

1427
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:46,280
Speaker 1: peanut to it, give you your business card, but I

1428
01:22:46,400 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 1: don't invite it for you know, into your house, right exactly. Well,

1429
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:54,280
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today, Kaylee. This

1430
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:57,559
Speaker 1: has been amazing. I'm a big fan of your work,

1431
01:22:57,640 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: big fan of crow or you guys. If you're on Twitter,

1432
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 1: you can check out crow or no hashtag crow or

1433
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:07,800
Speaker 1: no where you can test your crow identification skills. And

1434
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:12,680
Speaker 1: but Kaylee is very tricky, so don't trust her. But

1435
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 1: do you have anything to plug? Sure? So people can

1436
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at corporate research, on Instagram at

1437
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 1: corporate research, on Facebook corporate research, or on my blog.

1438
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 1: I want to guess what it's called, um horse research,

1439
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:33,240
Speaker 1: did you know, Katie? Or the blog corporate research. I

1440
01:23:33,240 --> 01:23:36,360
Speaker 1: have a ton of articles. I have articles about you

1441
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 1: know them recognizing themselves in mirrors. I have articles about

1442
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:42,160
Speaker 1: whether or not they kill all the songbirds, all kinds

1443
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:44,759
Speaker 1: of good stuff in there, just anywhere on social media.

1444
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,519
Speaker 1: Google corporate research and I'm probably there. We're okay, Yeah,

1445
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,120
Speaker 1: it's fine to find a If you find a murder

1446
01:23:51,160 --> 01:24:00,880
Speaker 1: of Crow's, Kyley's probably behind it all and that you

1447
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 1: can find us as always at Creature feature Pot on

1448
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:07,320
Speaker 1: Instagram at Creature feet Pot on Twitter, that's f e

1449
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 1: A T, not f e T. That is something very different,

1450
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 1: and you can find me on Twitter at Katie Golden

1451
01:24:13,320 --> 01:24:15,799
Speaker 1: just for you know, my random Katie thoughts, not always

1452
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 1: about animals, but sometimes about animals as always, I am

1453
01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:23,759
Speaker 1: pro bird rights where it turns out, you guys, birds

1454
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:26,479
Speaker 1: are pretty cool and I do think they should be president,

1455
01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 1: but you know that's just my opinion, not to get

1456
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:34,439
Speaker 1: all political on the podcast. Definitely birds should be president anyways,

1457
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:38,720
Speaker 1: would be a hundred times smarter than our guys. Get

1458
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 1: get out and vote because I love animals, and you

1459
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 1: can't love animals and not pay attention to politics, because hey,

1460
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:50,920
Speaker 1: some politicians actually are really bad for the planet and

1461
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 1: do things that actively harm the environment, which is where

1462
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 1: we all live and where animals live. And in particular,

1463
01:24:58,080 --> 01:25:02,120
Speaker 1: the Trump administration has been exceedingly bad when it comes

1464
01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:08,040
Speaker 1: to obviously environmental protections but also specifically protections for birds,

1465
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:12,440
Speaker 1: and just like aggressively taking away all of these protections

1466
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 1: for birds, making it easier for people to kill birds,

1467
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:19,800
Speaker 1: for industries to kill birds. It's really horrible. So if

1468
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: you love birds, get out and vote. You know, just

1469
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:28,400
Speaker 1: it's not good. It's not a good situation. If you

1470
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 1: have any questions or pictures of your pets you want

1471
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:36,040
Speaker 1: to send, there's Creature Feature pot at gmail dot com.

1472
01:25:36,080 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,

1473
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 1: you can leave a rating or review. I read all

1474
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 1: the reviews and it warms my little cold triveled bird heart.

1475
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:49,599
Speaker 1: Thanks to the Space Classics for their super awesome song

1476
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:52,639
Speaker 1: x Alumina. Creature Feature is a production of I Heart Radio.

1477
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:55,080
Speaker 1: For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit

1478
01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or Hey guess what?

1479
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:00,439
Speaker 1: Where have you listen to your favorite shows? See you

1480
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Speaker 1: next Wednesday. Un Happy Creature, We