1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, As you know, it is August. That is 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: birthday season for us here at stuff they don't want 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: you to know. So we're gonna take some time, take 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: some space this week. Space at an accidental pun, we're 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: gonna do some classic episodes in place of our usual 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: strange news and listener mail segments. But fear not, dear 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: constant reader, as Stephen King would say, we are going 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: to return, and we have received so much correspondence that 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: we're actually putting a lot of research into our listener 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: mail uh segments at this time. Okay, this is a 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: question that Matt Noel and I always get asked every 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: time we appear on various other media platforms. The question 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: goes something like, okay, we're off air now, guys, do 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: you think people made it to the moon? Well, I mean, 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: we know Stanley Kubrick made it to the moon with 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: his his cinema camera, right. I I kid, But I 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: always loved that theory because I'm you know, I think 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: we're all big cinema buffs. The idea that old Stanley 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: secretly filmed a cinematic masterpiece that had the whole world fooled. 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: But you know, unfortunately that's pretty unlikely. It's a good story. Yeah, 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: but how did he how did he get past the 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: Van Allen Belts Noel, I don't know. I don't think 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: he could. I don't think any of us could. Well, 24 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: dare to dream, and so on the the idea, Yeah, 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: the are I think our mutual favorite conspiracy about moon 26 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Landing's favorite conspiracy theory is that Stanley Kubrick traveled to 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 1: the Moon to film the moon landing as as a fake. Uh. 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: And he, you know, originally was supposed to have it 29 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: in a studio somewhere in California. But of course, being 30 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: an aw tour and man with an eye for detail, 31 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: he said, the best way to fake the moon landed 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: is he is for me to fly to the Moon 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: and fake it, fake it on location. Us. So, in 34 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: this one we are we are interviewing. We are interviewing 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: a fellow Matt. His name is Matt Johnson. How many 36 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: years ago was this? It was six were interviewing this 37 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: filmmaker about his newest work, Operation Avalanche. Notice, astute listeners 38 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: that none of us, not Nol, not Matt, not me, 39 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: none of us gave you a conclusive answer on our 40 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: opinion of whether or not human beings have landed on 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: the moon. What do you say we find out what passed? 42 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: Matt Nolan Ben thought about this through UFOs to psychic 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they 45 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Hello, welcome back to the show. 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Nolan. I'm Ben. 47 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: This is stuff they don't want you to know, and 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: I just always thank you so much for tuning in. 49 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: You know, we've been doing a lot of interviews recently, guys, Yeah, 50 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: we have. I'm enjoying the space. I guess we wonder 51 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: how you guys feel about it, the space of interviews, 52 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: the interview space. I gotta sayn I've been enjoying it too, 53 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: especially when we get to learn new things and talk 54 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: to interesting individuals. Right. Yeah. So in previous episodes, we 55 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: spoke with the author Brian Tooey about sports conspiracies. Today 56 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: we are interviewing fellow named Matt Johnson, who is the director, writer, 57 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: and star of a film coming out today. As if 58 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: you're listening to this the day it comes out, uh 59 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: today September six. As we record this episode. Yes, it's 60 00:03:54,240 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: called Operation Avalanche, and it's it's very difficult for me 61 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: to describe everything that this movie encompasses because it's a 62 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: movie about making a movie with people using their real names. 63 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: But it's complete fiction. It's incredible. Right here, here are 64 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: the facts. On July twentie, nineteen sixty nine, the course 65 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: of human history fundamentally changed when Neil Armstrong became the 66 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: first man to set foot upon the Moon, and then 67 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: Buzz Aldrin did it a couple of minutes afterwards, right, 68 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: and once once these people went there that one time 69 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: on the Apollo eleven mission. Than the official story is 70 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: that there were five more missions, so a total of 71 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: six Apollo missions with two astronauts making contact on the 72 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: surface each time, for a total of twelve people on 73 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: the moon. And then we stopped going to the moon. Right, yeah, 74 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: then we stopped going to the moon. So I want 75 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: to ask you guys, Operation Avalanche is about how a 76 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: moon landing could have and hoaxed. I want to ask 77 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: you guys, and we want to ask you audience members 78 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: to let us know what what do you guys think? 79 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: Do you guys think somebody faked the moon landing? I 80 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: hope it was Stanley Kubrick. According to the latest polls 81 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: that I could find on this, roughly seven percent of 82 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: the American voting public believes that the moon landing was hoaxed. However, 83 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: that belief in a hoaxed moon landing is pretty popular 84 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: in other countries as well, so it's it's more common there. Well, 85 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: we're gonna just hop into our interview with Matt right now, 86 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: and then uh, we'll come back at the end and 87 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: see if our see if anybody's had their opinion. Suade, 88 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: what do you think? Yeah, I love that idea. Uh 89 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: quick note, no, you were not with us for this interviews, 90 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: but you're here with us now through the magic of 91 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: time travel audio. Time traveling audio. We have an actual 92 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: time machine here in the house stuff works offices that 93 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: we only use in cases of emergencies like this because 94 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: it operates on blood and blood magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 95 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: I get put the magic after and quick caveat at 96 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: the top. Here there are spoilers inside of this interview, 97 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: so listen with caution and go see the movie. And 98 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: here we go, ladies and gentlemen. We are here with 99 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: Matt Johnson, the director, co writer and star of Operation Avalanche. 100 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 1: So Matt, we have to know, man, what lad you guys, 101 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: specifically you and your co writer down this moon landing 102 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: rabbit hole. Well, when we first started, the plan was 103 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: just to make another fake documentary about some great historical 104 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: moment um, because we had such success of our first 105 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: on the thirties and we really really really really like 106 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: that formal approach of sort of the oriole fake documentary 107 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 1: by neophite filmmakers like that that was just so interesting. Um. 108 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: And as we started looking at different moments in history 109 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: to kind of do this about, it just became so 110 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: obvious so quickly that the moon Landing, if it was faked, 111 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: is like the most incredible movie ever made. And so 112 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: if you're trying to make a story about people making movies, 113 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: then why not have them make the greatest movie ever 114 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: seen that nobody actually knows the movie? Um, and it's 115 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: it was almost as soon as it was mentioned, oh 116 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: let's do the fake moon landing like that was it. 117 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: Then we were good, like we just knew and and 118 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: oddly enough, just that idea was so powerful that it 119 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: it gave us energy to just keep going and going 120 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: and going and going. When when we thought this is 121 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: this is ridiculous. Oh man, we can we can certainly 122 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: relate with that drive that you get when there's some 123 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: kind of mystery like that out there, that it just 124 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: kind of hangs there in front of you like a carrot. 125 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: We we definitely understand that in our line of work. Yeah, 126 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: And it's so it's so clever for it to, uh, 127 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: for it to take that documentary format about the you know, 128 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: when you say it this way, Matt, it's it really 129 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: is the greatest movie ever made if the moon landings 130 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: are faked. And it's strange in the course of our research. Uh, 131 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: it's strange how this story has captivated people for nearly 132 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: half a century now and and we have to ask 133 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: just to get get this uh elephant or lunar rover 134 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: in the room out of the way real quick. Why 135 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: do you think some people some people believe that the 136 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: Apollo eleven moon landing was faked? I can tell you, Um. 137 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: I think one of the major reasons that that conspiracy 138 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: endures the way that many others are a bit more 139 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: laughable and are not nearly as popular, is because of 140 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: its innocence and the fact that there really are Although 141 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: there were some steaks to the Apollo mission, and it 142 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: was very important at a certain time. Nowadays it almost 143 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if they did go to the moon or 144 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: they didn't geo politically, like, there's no it's not like 145 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: saying I believe that nine eleven wasn't my job, or 146 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: saying and committing the fact that JFK was in was assassinated, 147 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: Like those have real consequences if they're true, where they're 148 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: not true, whereas the moon landing being faked is just 149 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: so goofy and it's just so it's almost I mean, 150 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: as you see in our film, like it's just a 151 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: great story if if that's true, like if they didn't 152 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: go to the moon and they faked it, and that's 153 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: a really amazing story, and it's not. The social cost 154 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: for saying you believe it is not quite as high 155 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: as saying, you know, you think George Bush had something 156 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: to do with the not eleven attacks, like you just 157 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: you just don't pay the same price for believing it. 158 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: And it's more fun to believe um not me personally, 159 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: I do not think the moon landing was faked at all. 160 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: Nobody on my team does not even a little bit. Um. 161 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: But that's actually one of the reason is why we 162 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: wanted to make the Movie's because we thought, how wicked 163 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: would it be if we can make a movie that 164 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: is convincing enough to make people think the moon lending 165 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: was fake, even though that's not what we believe. Like 166 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: that was just such an amazing like trick and an 167 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: amazing challenge for us um um. But I guess those 168 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: two ideas are not really that related. But as I said, 169 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: that's why I think it endures and why people believe it. Also, 170 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: it comes from a very American sort of cowboy notion 171 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: of I know better than my government, which is something 172 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: very very popular right now. Absolutely, the government is lying 173 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: to me that everything I'm being told is fake. I think. 174 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: I think that also plays into a big time I 175 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: think you're gonna see more people in this coming election 176 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: cycle talking about this type of mass government lying, mass 177 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 1: government conspiracies that you ever have ever. Yeah, I absolutely 178 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: agree with that. I think that's a I think that 179 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: is a fair and accurate addiction. Uh. One thing that 180 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: we discussed that we really enjoyed about the film when 181 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: we were watching it is the biggest question for any 182 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: um anybody applying critical thinking to that kind of conspiracy 183 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: theory is how could thousands and thousands of people keep 184 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: a secret like this if it did happen for so long? 185 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: And uh, we Matt Frederick here, maybe you can talk 186 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: a little bit about this from our discussions and uh 187 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: what we thought was so clever about how the film 188 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: handles this. Oh yeah, absolutely. This is the point that 189 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: we've grappled with when discussing this conspiracy in particular. And Dude, 190 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: when you give your c I a presentation and you're 191 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: explaining how you're gonna make the whole thing happen, and 192 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: there's only a handful of people that are going to 193 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: have to be involved, including the astronauts, I was just going, 194 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: oh wow, I've never had someone pose it in that way. Um, 195 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: that you wouldn't have to have mission control involved, like 196 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: you only have to convince the astronauts to to read 197 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: the scripts. That was our biggest challenge was trying to 198 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: figure out how to make that part of the conspiracy 199 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: believable because nowhere where we looked online even were people 200 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: who are really into this conspiracy had an effective answer 201 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: for that. Um. And so coming up with that and 202 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: figuring out how like a like a junior guy in 203 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: the CIA would be able to pull something like that 204 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: off was one of our big achievements. Like, we were 205 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: really really happy with that, and I mean, although it 206 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: seems insane, it does have a lot of credibility to it. 207 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: Um As I said, like, we we spent a lot 208 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: of time at NASA and it was important to us 209 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: that what Matt says the CIA is actually true. So 210 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: speaking of NASA, let's talk about the Johnson Space Center. Uh, 211 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: it looks like you're filming inside that facility and it 212 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: looks like you're interviewing people. Is that was that really 213 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: happening or is that on set? No? No, that's all real. 214 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: We we I mean I was a grad student in 215 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: Toronto at the time, and we we contacted NASA and 216 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: said that we were making a documentary for school about 217 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: the nine sixties, and we went down from Canada and 218 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: spent about a week there and we shot most of 219 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: the movie that you see at NASA in actual I mean, 220 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: we we we we we digitally turned into the man 221 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: State Space Center, which it was at that time, but 222 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: we shot the whole thing in Galveston, all that stuff, 223 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: and those are real NASA staff. They really have the 224 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: jobs that they say that they have like, that's all 225 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: completely real, that's insane. Yeah, that's that's uh, that's fascinating, 226 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: and that also but this isn't even a question but 227 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: more of a lead in. I want to commend you 228 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: on the pitch perfect visual tone it is. It is 229 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: exactly of the time, which I thought I thought was fascinating, 230 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: and some earlier interviews you have talked a little bit 231 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: about the process of that filming. But while we're on 232 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: the subject of film itself, we have to ask why 233 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: do you think Stanley Kubrick is so important to the 234 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: context of this conspiracy. I think there's two really big 235 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: reasons why Stanley Kubrick is such a big deal when 236 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: it comes to conspiracies in general, but also the moonlanding conspiracy. 237 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: The first one is he was insanely reclusive. He was 238 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: people already knew him as a secret keeper, as an 239 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: unbelievably secretive guy. He famously burned his two thousand one 240 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: sets once they finished shooting because he didn't want people 241 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: to have access to them like he did. He had 242 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: behavior that did make sense from a certain point of view, 243 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: but could be twisted in such a way where you 244 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: could go, okay, this guy's operating at a different level 245 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: than the way people are imagine that he does. And 246 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: to the tour reputation that he had um of pouring 247 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: so much work into the things that he did, I 248 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: think allowed people to again think that he could do 249 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: the impossible. Like when new Stanley Brick movies were coming 250 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: out of that time, they were always pushing the boundaries 251 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: technically of what could be done, um in a way 252 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: that no other filmmakers we're nearly as famous for doing. So. 253 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: It just I think those two elements came together very 254 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: well to make him a central figure in the in 255 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: the moon Landing conspiracy. I mean, and it didn't hurt 256 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: that he was making two thousand one at the exact 257 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: same time. Yeah, and then he burned the set. I mean, 258 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: come on, Coo incidents, are you exactly exactly? Well, okay, 259 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: so just let's continue on the couper c line here. 260 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Room two thirty seven and the shining. 261 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: We watched Room Truth at the seven at tiff I 262 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: think it was out in twenty eleven, I'm not I'm 263 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: not sure when we saw it, but but we went 264 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: back to that a couple of times when we were 265 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: writing this Hope movie. Um, just because it wasn't the 266 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: first time I'd heard that theory, but it was definitely 267 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: the most eloquent combination of elements um that I've ever seen. 268 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: I love that film awesome. Did you also watch Capricorn One? 269 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: Josh Bolson? I had seen Capricorn one well before that, 270 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: mostly because it's such a funny movie. But uh, but yeah, yeah, 271 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: we we we also watched it. In fact, there's a 272 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: lot of dialogue um in Operation Avalanche that's just straight 273 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: uplifted from Capricorn One if you look closely, like we 274 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: we tried to do a lot of lighting references to 275 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,119 Speaker 1: that movie. Yeah. I was going to call the momages 276 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: there some of the visual shots too, of watching the 277 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: moon landing on the television's outside on the street. I mean, 278 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: it's beautiful, man, it. I was seeing pictures of it 279 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: as I'm watching your film, was just going, oh, this 280 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: is great man. Now that takes us to another question here. 281 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: So the movie was shot in twenty fourteen, but somehow 282 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: you managed to interview James E. Webb, who died as 283 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: the research indicates in and get an autograph from Stanley Kubrick, 284 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: who died in how how did the film achieved this? 285 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny here the first person who's assillent, 286 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: but that James Webb stuff and uh, and yeah, that 287 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: was something we're really proud about it. But everybody just 288 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: focuses on the Kubrick I mean, obviously those are done 289 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: with digital effects, but um, the complexity with which we 290 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: had to treat them, because we're talking about extremely old 291 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: celluloyd that were then putting digital effects on and trying 292 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: to combine the two together made it almost impossible. But 293 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: the genius who did it is again named Tristan Zarafa, 294 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: who is our VFX supervisor and who made um, who 295 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: made both those sequences happen mostly from photographs but the 296 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: James web stuff and when he retires as well. Um, 297 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: it's uh, it was it was news news footage that 298 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: we got and then did a ton of manipulation too 299 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: to get me interacting with those people, the family Kubrick piece. 300 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: It was like six months of work and in fact, 301 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: there's a whole article in in this Moss movie Maker 302 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: magazine about exactly how we did it. But um, but 303 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: that was the most challenging thing on the film by 304 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: far from a technical point. Of view. I mean that 305 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: was because again Kubrick was was a recluse and he 306 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: didn't let people film him, especially during making two, So 307 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: we had no footage to do that forest come trick on, 308 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: so we had to make it out of photographs and 309 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: that was I mean, Tristan like killed himself doing that. 310 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: But I'm but I mean, we're all unbelievably proud. I mean, 311 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: Stanley Kubrick literally is alive and walking and talking in 312 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: in our movie. Just so you know, and just for 313 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: a little context, Ben and I also make a video 314 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: show where we edit archival footage a lot, and when 315 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: when those scenes come up, it just hit us really 316 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: hard and seeing the amount of work that was going 317 00:18:48,000 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: on screen. So let's just let's keep on the technological 318 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: advances in film production, video production. UM, do you ever 319 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: worry that if you guys can achieve this kind of stuff? Uh? 320 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: Do you worry that maybe the CIA or NASA could 321 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: be working on something similar to Operations Zipper? Right now? Well, 322 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: I mean, as I said originally, with why I think this, uh, 323 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: this conspiracy had endured. Um, I actually don't think there's 324 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: enough of a reason for NASA to be lying to 325 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: the public at any level. Um and and I can 326 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: tell you the reason why. And and actually I learned 327 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: this while I was at NASA. And I'm not sure, like, 328 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: um what your take is on things like, you know, 329 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: NASA hiding aliens or NASA hiding technology or any of 330 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: these types of things. But this explains things in a 331 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: really interesting way to me that made me go, oh, okay, 332 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: there's no way NASA's hiding things. And it's there. It's 333 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: that NASA is unbelievably underfunded. They are They're they're literally 334 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: closing departments like every year, year over year. They're losing money, 335 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,239 Speaker 1: um and, and they're losing jobs, and it's because they 336 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: have a lot of trouble asking the government who funds 337 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,239 Speaker 1: for more money. And in the nineties, I don't remember it, 338 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: but there was some kind of an alien scare or 339 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: like you know, in the news people are saying, oh wait, 340 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: there's some evidence that maybe there's some aliens, and NASA 341 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: wanted to investigate it, and the government gave them something 342 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: like a hundred million dollars, like they gave them so 343 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: much money just to check out this like traudulent news 344 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: story or like just this idea that maybe there was 345 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: alien life. And so the notion that NASA would be 346 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: intentionally hiding things that they discovered is so is so suicidal. 347 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: Like they would never ever do that because if they 348 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: found anything, any evidence of anything at all, they would 349 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: be the first people to go to the New York 350 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 1: Times and say, look what we found, just because they 351 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: need money, and they'd be so happy to get funding 352 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: because they discovered something good. Um, but ask your question 353 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: about like video technology and maybe the CIA using it 354 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: to like you know, fake you know wars and like 355 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: the kind of like wag the dog stuff. Um. Sure, 356 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: it seems like these days the governments don't need video 357 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: evidence to create, you know, environments with which to go 358 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: to war. I mean there was no you know, smoking 359 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: gun like like the like it's like the weapons of 360 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: map destruction during the Iraq War. It's like, I don't 361 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: think that the c I need the CIA needs to 362 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: manufacture video evidence in the way that you would have 363 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: to if you're trying to fake the moon lighting. I 364 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: think they have a lot simpler, more rudimentary ways to 365 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: fool people into doing stupid stuff. Right, Yeah, I'm with 366 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: you on that. When that because I think one of 367 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: the troubling things that constructs the I guess, the primordial 368 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: soup from which some of these kind of conspiracy birth 369 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: is an environment of rampant distrust and in in many 370 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: ways a well earned distrust of some government agencies. But 371 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: the CIA and NASA are very, very, very different entities, 372 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: as most of our listeners know, Um yeah, yeah, and 373 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: uh one thing, that one thing that got us uh 374 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: our audience and uh Matt, Matt and our costol and myself, 375 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 1: all of us are fascinated by learning about the various 376 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: clandestine or underground operations by the CIA and other intelligence agencies. 377 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: And there are numerous CIA operations referenced in the film, 378 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: but Operation Avalanche is not one of them. So what's 379 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: the significance of the title there? Well, you know that 380 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: it's that bleeds into it a whole other project that 381 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: that I'm making right now, which is a television series. 382 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: And I mean, for me to explain this, you mean 383 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: you're gonna think I'm insane. But we we titled the 384 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: movie Operation Avalanche one because I mean it was basically 385 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: Matt naming his own mission and thinking that that's a 386 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: cool name. But more importantly, that plays into a television 387 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: series that I'm making right now for Vice. Oh yeah, 388 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: that's uh if if I'm correct, is that Nirvana the 389 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: Band in the show The Band the Show. Yes, yeah, 390 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: that's correct. And in and in one of the episodes 391 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: of Nirvana the Band the Show, which is just a 392 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: comedy series, um My, me and my best friends sneak 393 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: a movie into Sundance called Operation Avalanche. And it was 394 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: just very important that the movie be called Operation Avalanche. 395 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: And again, I know that sounds insane, but but that 396 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: typically the reason that it was named exactly exactly that 397 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: we're excited to see it and to check it out 398 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: because we're huge comedy fans as well. So we've explored 399 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: some of the we've explored some of the genesis or 400 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: the origin story for what became Operation Avalanche, and we 401 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: just found out a really cool, uh meta cognitive twist 402 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: on it. Um. We we also, in the course of 403 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: looking into the ideas of moon landings being faked, uh, 404 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: we also ran into a question that a lot of 405 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: people have asked and for me personally, it's up there 406 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: with the same question, like in order of importance, it's 407 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: up that it's as important as the question about how 408 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: thousands of people could keep a secret, and Operation Avalanche 409 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: answers that. So with such grace and elegance, My next 410 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: question would be something that a lot of our listeners 411 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: have asked us, which is the following if if people 412 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: did indeed land on the Moon, then why did they 413 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: stop going? Why were there only the six missions with 414 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: two astronauts on the surface each time. Well, I mean 415 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: that ties into exactly what I was talking about before 416 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: when it comes to NASA and they're funding, and that's 417 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: that they were only getting money because there was such 418 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: a national interest in going on that mission. There was 419 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: a like the all of America was tuned in to 420 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: see America beat the Russian space program. That's what everybody wanted. 421 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: But then once it was done, like, nobody cared about 422 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: the scientific ramifications of that mission. To them, it was 423 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: just a race. And as soon as we've won I 424 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: shouldn't say wee because I'm Canadian, but as soon as 425 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: NASSA had one, then all of a sudden, the public 426 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: interest vanished. And in fact, I mean this is a 427 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: famous story which I'm sure you've heard before this, but 428 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: like Apollo twelve, people were calling into their television providers 429 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: to complain that the live broadcast of Apollo twelve was interrupting. 430 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: I love Lucy reruns. Wow. So like people were so 431 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: disinterested after they had landed once that just the government 432 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: saw absolutely no real like why would you be funding 433 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: this multi billion dollar program when when the public is 434 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not getting you elected, it's not getting votes, 435 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: it's not drawing eyeballs. People just didn't care. Um, And 436 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: that's why all of a sudden emissions were seized because 437 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: one I mean, if you talk to NASA scientists, they 438 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: have a very different opinion. In fact, one of the 439 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: cool things that I learned when I was at Gallaston 440 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: is that because they only did those six missions, they 441 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: actually didn't learn nearly as much as they wanted to because, 442 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: as one of them told me, the Moon is actually 443 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: very variegated. It's an extremely variegated surface. So they landed 444 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: one specific spot, but it's not uniform at all. They 445 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: wanted to go all around the Moon and find all like, 446 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: there's tons of stuff up there that they just don't 447 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: know what it is. But they had to stop. Now, 448 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: what the scientific applications of having a perfect geo map 449 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: of the Moon would be, I don't know, um, but 450 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: but they had to stop because public interest died. It 451 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with you know, like some conspiracy 452 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: or like oh yeah, we can't keep this lie up anymore. 453 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: In a way, it was. It was completely because the 454 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: public had zero interest. And I'm telling you you're gonna 455 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: see this again, um in the next I mean twenty years, 456 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: as we start to look at Mars and other planets. 457 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 1: As soon as the national interest tilts towards uh, what's that? 458 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: What terraforming other planets or or or or or interplanetary travel, 459 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: you will see a resurgence of funding and these missions. 460 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: And it's it's always about public eyeballs. What what does 461 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: the voter want to have happened? It's very rarely led 462 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: by science. Well, you know, now we're seeing private interest 463 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: in going back to the Moon because of the of 464 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: the helium three content on the Moon and trying to 465 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: be able to mind that in other minerals. So yeah, 466 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: I'd be interested to see how that kind of changes 467 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: in the next ten twenty years. It's quite possible that 468 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: the future of the future of our galactic exploration will 469 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: be driven by commercial interests, similar to the way that 470 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, the Dutch East India Company partnered up with 471 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: its government at the time to create a super powerful 472 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: corporate interest And is it going to be good? Is 473 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: it going to be evil? Will be united? Fruits? Right? 474 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: Will we? Will we be alive? To find out? How 475 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: quick will the timeline go? You know, I'm sorry, I'm 476 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: I'm at this point. I'm just expounding on this because 477 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:35,719 Speaker 1: I I believe wholeheartedly that, um, the compelling interest for 478 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: space exploration, for any sustained exploration, is going to have 479 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: to be commercial at this point. Yeah, we've lost We've 480 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: lost that love man for exploration as a public. So 481 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: jumping back into operations that occur within this film, there 482 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: there are two points in the movie where Operation Northwoods 483 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 1: is mentioned. And a lot of people who who who 484 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: end up watching your movie may miss some of the 485 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: contacts with this or some of the meta stuff you're 486 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: playing with their um, But explain to us what the 487 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: context of Operation Northwoods is in the film. Oh sure, 488 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: Northwoods is a is a c I A UH mission 489 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: that went on I think from fifty nine forwards, UM, 490 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: and it was just recently be classified I think with 491 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: the last five years, maybe the last seven years it 492 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: was declassified. UM, and it was just another one of 493 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: those crazy, like you cannot believe it's happening, CIA missions 494 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: from the nineteen sixties, which was specifically that they were 495 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: going to fake They didn't call them terrorist attacks, but 496 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: they were going to fake terrorist attacks as though they 497 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: were done by the Cubans, and they were going to 498 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: use this to drum up support for an invasion of Cuba. 499 00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: And Northwoods was a huge blanket operation that and I mean, 500 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm not like a stroller on this stuff. This is 501 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: basically just what I learned from the research for this 502 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: movie I was making. But uh, within Operation Northwoods where 503 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other minor operations, and one of 504 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: the ones that we referenced in our movie was either 505 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: Operation Dirty Trick or maybe Operation drop Kick. I don't 506 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: know which one it was, but it was crazy. And 507 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: the idea was with mission with Missile Base out of Cuba, 508 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: they were going to shoot down John Glenn's rocket if 509 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: something technically went wrong, so if I mean, god knows 510 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: how how furious they were, but I mean, it's all 511 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: in the mission. So if that first you know, circles 512 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: first man in space blockets from NASA went up and 513 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: had any kind of technical malfunction. The CIA was going 514 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: to intentionally shoot it down with missiles coming out of Russia, 515 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: story out of Cuba and blame it on the Soviets, 516 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: which is just like insane, but but really set the 517 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: stage well for a for why they would want to 518 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: shake the movement. It helps our will be quite a bit. Okay, Now, 519 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: I don't, man, I feel like we're giving away spoilers 520 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: like crazy for this. We'll we'll tell people about the 521 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: spoilers at the beginning. Basically see the movie then listen 522 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: to this. Um. But okay, there's an action that you 523 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: that you your character Matt Johnson, the guy the agent, 524 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: uh takes after cutting together all of the documentary footage 525 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: that you guys have shot throughout the course of the movie. 526 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: Both of them, um where you bury a reel And 527 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: I think, if I remember in correctly, there are a 528 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: couple of different reels that you bury, but one of them, uh, 529 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: one of them is the movie itself. And it just 530 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: makes me think, do you do you think somewhere out 531 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: there there's a reel of film buried that has I 532 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: don't know, another shot from the Grassy Knoll or maybe 533 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: the actual moon landing set. I mean, I would love 534 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: to think that. I mean, I think the fact is 535 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: that type of self reflexive making documentaries about yourself and 536 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: filming what you're doing was not in the Zeit gifts 537 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: during that time in such a way where somebody would think, oh, 538 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: this is important. I don't think people like, let's say 539 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK and the 540 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: people who were involved in that. I thought it was 541 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: important enough that they documented, and that just seems like 542 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: such a stretch. Um, I wish there wasn't the amazing 543 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: I mean there's yeah, there's such a such an awesome 544 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: like cashe to Oh I just found this. I think 545 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: there's a there's a movie, what's the movie with Nicholas 546 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: Cage where he finds the photographs at the very end 547 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: rection movie. No, it must be the rock. It must 548 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: be the rock because he dealing with that m I 549 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: six agent. Yeah. Um, so like that that that's so 550 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: pulpy and so exciting that. Uh, I hope it's true. 551 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: But I think Acam's Razors says, uh, there's there's there's 552 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: no way it'd be would be too crazy. It would 553 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: be it would be too crazy to essentially incriminate oneself 554 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: in that regard, right, unless you had a very good reason, 555 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: which which Matt has in in in Operation Avalanche, like 556 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: he's doing it basically as a safety net. It's almost 557 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: an insurance policy. I can't imagine somebody doing that from 558 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: the inside without really really really having a reason to 559 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: do it. I'm also I mean, I can tell you 560 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: from experience that burying film canisters like that that's celluloid 561 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: would not laugh, it would be completely stripped. It would 562 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 1: be it would be stripped because in order to damage 563 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: a lot of the frames of Operation Avalanche, like our movie, 564 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: we did bury them. And we wouldn't leave things buried 565 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: for more than sixteen hours before before the asset was 566 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: completely eroded. So, oh wow, we're getting we're getting some 567 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: inside looks in here. Uh. We do want our listeners 568 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: to know that you can check this movie out for 569 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: yourself today the day this podcast comes out. That's right, 570 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: Operation Avalanche is in a theater near you, uh, starting 571 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: September two thousand and sixteen. Uh. And Matt, we want 572 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: to thank you so much for your time today. And 573 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: this is uh, this is an astonishing look at I 574 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 1: guess it's almost a um it's a terrifyingly possible explanation 575 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: for a moon landing hoax that is ultimately seemingly impossible. 576 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: It's just you guys were way too successful with convincing me, 577 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: at least personally. Yeah. Yeah, and uh, we think we 578 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: we we want to commend you on a job well 579 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: done and we hope that everybody checks out this film 580 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: before we before we end today's episode, we wanted to 581 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: give the last word to you. Is there is there 582 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: anything that you would like to add about Operation Avalanche 583 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: or say directly to people who are also fascinated by 584 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: the idea that the moon landing was faked. Yeah, and 585 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: I think what's the What I'd like to say is 586 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: that I don't believe the moon landing was faked, but 587 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: it's very clear that like an environment of lives existed 588 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: in the United States during the nineteen sixties which they 589 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: used to manipulate the public at large. And just because 590 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: the moon landing like wasn't faked by the CIA, doesn't 591 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: mean that there weren't dozens and dozens and dozens of 592 00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: instances in which institutions like the CIA believe manipulated the 593 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: truth to change the policies of the United States too 594 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: with their citizens. So um so, I mean, hopefully people 595 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: are getting that from this movie without necessarily needing to 596 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: believe in the conspiracy um. But but we're we're happy 597 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: with it either way at some level. It's just sort 598 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: of a cool story. Matt, thank you again so much. 599 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: And listeners, do check out, uh do check out the 600 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: upcoming Operation Avalanche at the theater. Ner you September six, 601 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: the day this comes out. So if you're listening to 602 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: this the day it comes out, then hopefully you're already 603 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: on your way to the theater driving there now. So 604 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: pretty interesting stuff. What do you think? I loved that interview. 605 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: I could talk to Matt Johnson for a long time 606 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: because he was very open about not believing himself personally 607 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: in the moon landing conspiracy. But he was also able 608 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: to construct a film that convinced me of something that 609 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,959 Speaker 1: I've never been convinced of, which is that you wouldn't need, 610 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, thousands and thousands of people in on the conspiracy. 611 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: You would just need a select few. That's something that 612 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: we try to do, where we try to look at 613 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: both sides of an issue and be respectful to those 614 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: that you know, might believe differently than we ourselves do 615 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: from time to time. Certainly, absolutely so. Also, I I 616 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: still don't think we have maybe the best answer to 617 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: why the moon landings or moon lunar missions stopped. The 618 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: idea that it would be a funding issue seems pretty compelling, 619 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: and I enjoyed Matt Johnson's prediction that the same thing 620 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: will occur with manned Mars missions. Yeah, as soon as 621 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist kind of leaves and moves on to something else, 622 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: then it'll be difficult to get taxpayers to say, yeah, 623 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: let's give a good portion of our time access to this. 624 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: And we want to know what you think, listeners, given 625 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: some of the stuff we outlines here, do you believe 626 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: two paraphrase R A M. Do you believe they put 627 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: a man on the moon or do you believe that 628 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: this is all some elaborate wag the dog hoax? And 629 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: if so, why we've all checked out room tot seven 630 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: in this room, Nola, Mat and I, and we've all 631 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: delved into the Stanley Kubrick side the theory of it. 632 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: So we would like to hear from you. And if 633 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: you think that the moon landing did occur, but occurred 634 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,359 Speaker 1: perhaps under different circumstances. Maybe some other group got their 635 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: first or maybe moon landings continued in secret. We'd love 636 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: to hear more details about those theories. Kubrick burned his set. 637 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, guys, he burned his set. I 638 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: know it's like, hey, you can't. Nobody else will be 639 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: able to use this stuff. It will only live in 640 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: the celluloid. Now my film these sets, but still I 641 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: don't know, guys. And you can also check out some 642 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: of our earlier video episodes on lunar conspiracies as well 643 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: as a video will have coming out that addresses the 644 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: one on one the introduction to the belief that the 645 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: moon landing was hoaxed. Yeah, it really focuses on the 646 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: Apollo eleven mission itself. And guys, you know where you 647 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: can find us If you want to go dig deep, 648 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: dive down that rabbit hole into our back catalog, you 649 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: can find every podcast we've ever recorded at stuff they 650 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: don't want you to know dot Com or if you 651 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: are more into you know, using a Spotify or a 652 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: stitcher or an iTunes made, go do that. But do 653 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: us a solid if there's a way, leave us some 654 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: kind words. It helps people discover the show and helps 655 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: the algorithm push us out to more potential listeners and also, 656 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: you know, makes us a little less likely to get fired. Absolutely. 657 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Twitter and Facebook, where 658 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: you conspiracy Stuff. You can check out our Instagram where 659 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: we are Conspiracy Stuff Show. And that's the end of 660 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions 661 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: about this episode, you can get into contact with us 662 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: in a number of different ways. One of the best 663 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: is to give us a call. Our number is one 664 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: eight three three st d w y t K. If 665 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: you don't want to do that, you can send us 666 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i 667 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You to 668 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: Know is a production of I heart Radio. For more 669 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,439 Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 670 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.