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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Joe Boyd spent more than six decades as a producer,

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Speaker 1: label executive and writer whose influence extents far beyond the studio.

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Speaker 1: From producing Nick Drake's luminous folk albums to working with

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Speaker 1: Fairport Convention, Pink Floyd, and Ram, Boyd has shaped some

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Speaker 1: of the most enduring recordings in modern music history. But

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Speaker 1: Joe Boyd isn't just a behind the scenes architect of sound.

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Speaker 1: He's also a chronicler of the music he loves. In

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Speaker 1: a two thousand and seven memoir, White Bicycles Making Music

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen Sixties, he offered an insider's perspective on

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Speaker 1: that transformative era of nineteen sixties British music that was

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Speaker 1: so well received readers were clamoring for him to write

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Speaker 1: a follow up about the nineteen seventies. He wrestled with

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Speaker 1: that idea for a little bit, and then pivoted to

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Speaker 1: the voluminous new book and The Roots of Rhythm Remain,

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Speaker 1: a journey through global music, published just last year. This

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Speaker 1: tom takes across continents in search of the traditions that

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Speaker 1: continue to shape contemporary sound. From Cuba Tomali, from Brazil

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Speaker 1: to Bulgaria, Boyd traces the connections that bind global music

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Speaker 1: together and celebrates the artists who keep these traditions alive.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, I talked to Joe Boyd about working

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Speaker 1: with famed Warner Brothers CEO Moostin in the sixties. He

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Speaker 1: also talks about the exhaustive research he did in writing

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Speaker 1: his latest book and why he decided to pinpoint three

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Speaker 1: specific global regions as the genesis for all popular music,

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Speaker 1: and Joe recalls how he came to produce the Seminole

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three documentary on Jimi Hendrix, one of my

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Speaker 1: personal favorite films of all time. This is broken record,

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Speaker 1: real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Joe Boyd.

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Speaker 1: There were a number of Americans to get out to

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Speaker 1: London in the sixties that you weren't alone in that,

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Speaker 1: but it does seem to one of the rare ones

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Speaker 1: that stayed as long as he did not seem to

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Speaker 1: come back. Did you ever move back to the States?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I lived in la for a few years

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Speaker 2: in the early seventies. I was back and forth La

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Speaker 2: to London for another few years, and then I was

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Speaker 2: back and forth to New York for a bit In

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Speaker 2: the nineties and the noughties. But I've always I mean,

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Speaker 2: basically except for a couple of years when I was

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Speaker 2: working for Warner Brothers in la in the early seventies.

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Speaker 2: I've always had a flat in London since nineteen sixty five.

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Speaker 1: I want to kind of toggle between your career, not

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Speaker 1: as a writer, not as part of the book, also

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Speaker 1: the book. So the theme of the book, because you mentioned

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Speaker 1: Warner Brothers, can you tell me about that mo austin

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Speaker 1: early seventies, Warner Brothers culture and how you got involved.

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Speaker 2: One day in nineteen sixty eight, I guess it was

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Speaker 2: early sixth on a kind of willful impulse, I called

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Speaker 2: up Bill Graham and I said I wanted to come

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Speaker 2: see him, and he said okay, and gave me a

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Speaker 2: time and a date, and I jumped on a plane,

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Speaker 2: went to San Francisco and booked the Incredible String Band

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Speaker 2: to open for the Jefferson Airplane because I thought they

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be in folk clubs, they should be opening for

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Speaker 2: the Jefferson Airplane. And while I was there, I met

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Speaker 2: a guy called Andy Wickham. And Andy Wickham was an

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Speaker 2: Englishman who had once worked for Andrew Luke Oldham I think,

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Speaker 2: and he'd somehow migrated to California around the time of

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Speaker 2: the Monterey Pop Festival, and he was now working at

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Speaker 2: Warner Brothers. And we hung out and we spent some

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Speaker 2: time together in San Francisco, and he said, you got

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Speaker 2: to come to Burbank and meet Moe. And so I

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Speaker 2: flew down to burber Bank. I met Mo and we

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Speaker 2: just got along great. And Joe Smith and and Andy Wickham,

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Speaker 2: who passed away recently, ended up being a questionable guy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he was one of those people who revealed

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Speaker 2: him his sort of slightly racist and slightly aristocratic and

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Speaker 2: snobbish sides as he grew older. But at that time

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Speaker 2: he was the one who introduced Moe. And Moe and Joe,

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Speaker 2: you know, came from Sinatra, from Top forty Radio, from

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Speaker 2: these other worlds. And Andy introduced them to the Grateful Dead,

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Speaker 2: He introduced them to Joni Mitchell, he introduced them to

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Speaker 2: Van Morrison, and he opened those doors for them somehow.

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Speaker 2: Moe just, you know, the same charm that worked with

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Speaker 2: Natra's wise guys, worked with the Laurel Canyon guys. And

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Speaker 2: Moe was just a sweet guy. I mean, he was

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Speaker 2: tough and He didn't always reveal how tough he was

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Speaker 2: unless he was pushed. But his charm was such and

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Speaker 2: he had that wisdom to let you know. He surrounded

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Speaker 2: himself with Lenny Warrenker and Russ Titlement and you know,

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Speaker 2: all this this kind of a and R team Van

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Speaker 2: Dyke Parks, and he let them be the ones who

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Speaker 2: judged the music. The record company existed in a kind

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Speaker 2: of old warehouse across the street from the studio, and

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Speaker 2: they kept adding people and adding offices, and so it

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Speaker 2: was completely crowded. It was like you had three feet

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Speaker 2: and then there was the next office with a little

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Speaker 2: divider and you went to go have a pee, and

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Speaker 2: you're standing next to Moe or Joe or the head

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Speaker 2: of sales or the head of you know. And so

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Speaker 2: there was there was so much communication. Everybody talked to

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Speaker 2: everybody else all the time. And then of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: they ended up selling ten million Neil Young records and

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Speaker 2: ten million Joni Mitchell records and got so much money

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Speaker 2: that they said, oh, let's build a new headquarters. And

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Speaker 2: I think by seventy seven or seventy six or something

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Speaker 2: like that, they built that new building down the street

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Speaker 2: and everybody was like thirty yards from each other, with

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Speaker 2: padded carpets, deep pile carpets in between, and the atmosphere

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Speaker 2: was never the same, and the record company I don't

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Speaker 2: think was ever the same again. You know, I got

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Speaker 2: I started doing some stuff. I produced a Jeff and

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Speaker 2: Maria Muldor record I produced. I sold them of John

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Speaker 2: and Beverly Martin record, neither of which sold. But for

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Speaker 2: some reason they liked me, and I think there was

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Speaker 2: also it's a complicated story, but they didn't have a

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Speaker 2: European operation, and so they decided the way that they

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Speaker 2: would enter Europe was by buying Island Records. And I

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Speaker 2: helped introduce them to Chris Blackwell because I was working

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Speaker 2: with Chris in London, and Chris, in his inimitable casual

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Speaker 2: Caribbean way, kind of fucked them around. I mean, he

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Speaker 2: just didn't take it all very seriously, and they did,

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Speaker 2: and they went out on a limb to make him

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Speaker 2: a very serious offer, and he never really responded, and

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Speaker 2: so they got furious and they offered Chrysalis, who was

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Speaker 2: making records for Ireland. They offered them a label deal

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Speaker 2: to move to Warner Brothers, and they went out to

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Speaker 2: get revenge. This was most tough side and he went

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Speaker 2: out to get revenge to take stuff away from Blackwell

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Speaker 2: from Ireland, and later they became great friends again. So

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Speaker 2: this was a brief period of vengefulness and part of

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Speaker 2: that was to steal me. And so they offered me

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Speaker 2: the job of music director for the film company. And

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Speaker 2: I was burnt out, you know. I had been struggling

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Speaker 2: so much to keep Witch Season afloat, and we never

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Speaker 2: sold enough records, and I was just getting more and

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Speaker 2: more in debt. And they offered me a big salary.

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Speaker 2: And Chris may have sensed the edge in this offer,

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Speaker 2: but he couldn't have been nicer. He said, it's a

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Speaker 2: great opportunity. You'll kick yourself if you don't take it.

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Speaker 2: I'll pay off your debts and look after your artists

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Speaker 2: and all that, and so go with my blessings. And

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Speaker 2: so I went to California in nineteen sid one and

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Speaker 2: became the so called director of music services for Warner

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Speaker 2: Brothers Films.

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Speaker 1: And so you was sort of in that role the

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Speaker 1: liaise between the music and the film, so Warner Brothers

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Speaker 1: music would end up in Warner Brothers films.

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Speaker 2: That was one of the jobs. I discovered that my

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Speaker 2: main job, as far as most of the directors and

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Speaker 2: producers were concerned, they'd call me up and say get

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Speaker 2: me John Williams, and you know, so it got kind

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Speaker 2: of tedious, but I had some fun, you know, Stanley Kubrick.

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Speaker 2: I'd worked on Clockwork Orange, I worked on Deliverance, the

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Speaker 2: banjo saying with dueling banjo's that was me? And who

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Speaker 2: played that again?

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Speaker 1: Who played that banjo part?

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Speaker 2: Eric Weisberg, because it should have been Bill Keith. Bill

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Speaker 2: Keith was the guy. He was the city billy guy

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Speaker 2: who'd played with Bill Monroe. I knew him from Harvard

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Speaker 2: Square the best. And what John Boorman wanted was doling banjos,

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Speaker 2: but he wanted it slow, fast, minor key, major key

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Speaker 2: as a soundtrack, as a score, and Bill Keith would

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Speaker 2: have been perfect. But Keith was on tour. He'd met

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Speaker 2: a girl. He wanted to go hang out with her

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Speaker 2: in Ireland. He said, how much are you paying? I

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Speaker 2: said two thousand bucks. He said, get Weisberg, and so

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Speaker 2: I got Weisburg and Weisberg made a fortune, you know, basically,

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Speaker 2: and then But what happened then was that I sort

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Speaker 2: of maneuvered my way into producing a Jimmy Hendrix documentary

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Speaker 2: called Jimmy Hendrix, who came out in seventy three, And

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Speaker 2: when that began to be really a full time thing,

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Speaker 2: I said to Warner Brothers, I said, listen, let me

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Speaker 2: find you a successor. And I went on. I thought

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Speaker 2: that making the Jimi Hendrix film made me a film producer,

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Speaker 2: but that was delusional.

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Speaker 1: I think any Hendrix fan, that's the thing that they

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Speaker 1: need to see. If there's anything that they need to see,

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Speaker 1: that is the thing that they should see.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not available online. You can't stream it.

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Speaker 2: I think there's secondhand DVDs available on Amazon, but nothing else.

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Speaker 2: And I've screened it during my last trip to America

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Speaker 2: to promote the book and the Roots of Them Remain,

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Speaker 2: I did an event up the Hudson River Valley and

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Speaker 2: Sagerates and the local cinema. The night before my event,

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Speaker 2: they showed the Jimi Hendrix film and it got me

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Speaker 2: to introduce it and that was great.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing, by the way, how Fay I can't remember

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Speaker 1: her last name, but his friend face. She's like completely

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Speaker 1: just the same Faine prigeon Faine prigein Thank You she

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Speaker 1: passed recently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she passed recently. She was fantastic.

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Speaker 1: She is just so vibranting in that thing. It's it's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: She's almost as charismatic as Jimmy in the movie, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you know she had I don't know enough.

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Speaker 2: I mean, somebody, it's really a shame. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's happened to it, but somebody I heard of somebody

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Speaker 2: doing interviews with her to do a kind of biography.

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Speaker 2: And evidently she was, you know, a friend or a

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Speaker 2: girlfriend of like ten of the top musicians of the

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Speaker 2: seventies and eighties. You know, she knew everybody, and everybody

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Speaker 2: adored her because she never and she never jibed anybody.

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Speaker 2: She told it like it was she was. And no,

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much in her interview. There was

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Speaker 2: a moment, my fa One of my favorite moments in

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Speaker 2: the movie was her describing when she and Jimmy were

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Speaker 2: living in a cold water flat like fifth floor and

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Speaker 2: Harlem fit for a walk up and she gives him

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Speaker 2: some money to go out and get some groceries or something,

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Speaker 2: and he disappears and he comes back and he hadn't

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Speaker 2: got any groceries, he's got an LP and she tries

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Speaker 2: to get the LP and finally she grabs it and says,

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Speaker 2: Bob Dylan, Who the fuck is Bob Vilan?

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Speaker 1: So good? What was the process of making that?

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Speaker 2: It was so weird because basically, all during Jimmy's life,

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Speaker 2: over the last few years of his life when he

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Speaker 2: was famous, everybody wanted to film him, and people were

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Speaker 2: constantly coming up and wanting to film him. And Mike Jeffries,

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Speaker 2: who was his manager, who was kind of thuggish guy

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Speaker 2: from Newcastle, former club owner in Newcastle, he would say, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 2: here he wants some lights. Here's where you plug in

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Speaker 2: the sound. Here's you want an electrical extension corved you

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Speaker 2: know you want if all areas pass here work out.

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Speaker 2: And then they kept saying, well, you know, we have

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Speaker 2: this release form that we need you to sign. Oh,

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about that later. And then when they'd filmed Jimmy,

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Speaker 2: they would come to him and try to get him

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Speaker 2: to sign the release and he said, now I've got

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Speaker 2: my own form, and he would give him give them

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Speaker 2: the form which gave him fifty one percent ownership of

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Speaker 2: the film, and so nobody would sign it, and so

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Speaker 2: all this footage never got released during Jimmy's lifetime. After

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Speaker 2: his father appointed this wonderful guy called Leo Branton, who

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Speaker 2: was an attorney, LA attorney who represented Miles Davis, nat

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Speaker 2: Cole Dorothy Dandridge. You know, he was an African American,

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Speaker 2: but he was also civil rights attorney. He defended Angela Davis.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, we were making the film during the

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Speaker 2: trial of Angela Davis up in the Bay Area, and

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Speaker 2: they had every Friday off at the trial. The trial

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Speaker 2: would go Monday, Tuesday, munch a Thursday, and Leo would

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Speaker 2: fly back from Oakland to Burbank and would come straight

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Speaker 2: to Warner Brothers to see what we had done in

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Speaker 2: the previous seven days with the film, and we'd show

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Speaker 2: him a new scene or whatever, and he would he

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Speaker 2: wasn't that interested in Jimmy's music. He was a Miles

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Speaker 2: Davis guy. And he would then do his imitation of

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Speaker 2: the judge, the prosecutor Angela Davis in the trial. And

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Speaker 2: we spent the whole time just sitting there listening to

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Speaker 2: him to tell us the inside story of the trial.

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Speaker 2: And I went to Thanksgiving dinner at his house and

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Speaker 2: sat next to Angela Davis, and you know, that was

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Speaker 2: what was going on sort of the background, because because

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Speaker 2: what happened was that when he got the job to

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Speaker 2: represent the estate, he discovered there was all this footage

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Speaker 2: that had never been seen. And Jefferies was now powerless

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Speaker 2: because he'd represented Jimmy, who was deceased. Now was a

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Speaker 2: family the heirs could appoint wherever they wanted, and they

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Speaker 2: appointed Leo, and he came to see Mo because Jimmy

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Speaker 2: was signed to Warner Prize at the time in America.

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Speaker 2: And then Mo took and walked him across the street

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Speaker 2: to see me and Ted Ashley, who was the head

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Speaker 2: of the film company. And out of that meeting came

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Speaker 2: the idea, well, at the first originally, just Joe, why

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Speaker 2: don't you have a look at all this footage and

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Speaker 2: see what you think of it and see if you

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Speaker 2: think there's a film there?

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Speaker 1: So he's asking you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he asked me. That was my job, you know,

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Speaker 2: I was the liaison between the two sides of the street.

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Speaker 2: And so I said, yeah, and we could film interviews

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Speaker 2: with this and this and this, and we could put

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Speaker 2: this together, and they okay, you do it.

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Speaker 1: Joe. Did Moe have much of a relationship with Hendrix.

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Speaker 1: I mean did I mean, I know they met backstage

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Speaker 1: at Monterey I believe right when.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think there was much Jimmy, you know,

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Speaker 2: his relationship. I think Mike Jeffries worked very hard to

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Speaker 2: keep Jimmy away from MO. You know, he wanted everything

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Speaker 2: to go through him. And also initially the deal was

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Speaker 2: through Track Records in England, and so it was like

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Speaker 2: he signed to Track for the world and then Track

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Speaker 2: licensed it to and then at a certain point they paid

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Speaker 2: some money to get Track out of the middle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the roots of Rhythm remain is It's an

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Speaker 1: astounding book. I have to imagine this idea came to

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Speaker 1: you many decades ago.

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Speaker 2: You know, I always liked to write. I mean I

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Speaker 2: always wrote the press releases for Hannibal Records, and I

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Speaker 2: wrote some articles, and then I started doing some book

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Speaker 2: reviews in the early two thousands, and I just thought, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'll write a book. I started writing a biography, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, you know, like when I was born and

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Speaker 2: please stop. Oh no, no, that's not right. It can't

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Speaker 2: be about me. It's got to be about the sixties.

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Speaker 2: And so I wrote My Bicycles. You know, focused on

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Speaker 2: this decade because I felt I had something to say

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Speaker 2: about the decade. And you know, I've been around for

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Speaker 2: a lot of important moments in the decade, and I

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Speaker 2: enjoyed doing it a lot. And then, you know, I

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Speaker 2: started going out and doing interviews and book readings and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and people will come up to me and say, so,

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Speaker 2: when are you going to do the book about the seventies,

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Speaker 2: And I said, you must be joking. You know, the

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Speaker 2: seventies was not fun for me. I didn't have a

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Speaker 2: good seventies. I don't have anything interesting to say about it.

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Speaker 2: But I liked riding my bicycles, and I liked I

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Speaker 2: liked the fact that I was no longer was I

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Speaker 2: looking after the career of musicians who rarely did what

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Speaker 2: I wanted them to. But I was looking after somebody

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Speaker 2: who did everything I wanted him to me, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, yeah, I'll write another book. That's what

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Speaker 2: I'll do. I'll write another book. And very quickly it

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Speaker 2: came to me what I would do. I guess there

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Speaker 2: were a couple of kernels of ideas that had been

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Speaker 2: festering in my brain a little bit, and I would say,

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Speaker 2: there's three that really pushed me off the edge of

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Speaker 2: that ski jump so that I had no choice but

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Speaker 2: to keep going. One was what I put in the

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Speaker 2: preface to the book, which is the realization of how

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Speaker 2: different Cuban and American rhythmic sensibilities are and try to

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Speaker 2: get to the bottom of that, because I knew enough

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Speaker 2: to know that it had something to do with history

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Speaker 2: and with slavery, but it was worth digging into. And

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Speaker 2: I had also read Ned Sublett's book by that time,

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Speaker 2: Cuba and Its Music, which is a great book, and

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Speaker 2: it really kind of opened my eyes to the depth

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Speaker 2: of what you could discover when you dug into a

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Speaker 2: musical culture like Cuba. And then also at the time,

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Speaker 2: I'm way back in the late eighties when Graceland was

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Speaker 2: so popular, everybody thought there was a controversy about Paul Simon,

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Speaker 2: you know, not respecting the boycott. And I know a

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Speaker 2: lot about South Africa. I've been there a couple of times.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't spent a lot of time there, but I'd

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Speaker 2: worked with a lot of South African musicians. I produced

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Speaker 2: to play a kind of anti apartape musical and so

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Speaker 2: I knew a lot about South Africa. I read a

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Speaker 2: lot about South Africa, and I knew that what people

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Speaker 2: thought was the controversy wasn't really the controversy. And I

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Speaker 2: saw all these Paul Simon fans buying Lady Smith Black

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Speaker 2: Mambaza records and buying Machlatini and the Machatella Queens records,

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Speaker 2: which was great. I mean, because it's great music, it's

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Speaker 2: worth those records are very much worth buying. But everybody

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Speaker 2: felt virtuous about buying them and that they were somehow

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Speaker 2: supporting Mandela by buying them. And I knew that they

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Speaker 2: were Zulus, and the Zulus were kind of the enemy

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Speaker 2: of Mandela, that supporting Zulu culture was not the same

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Speaker 2: as supporting the anc In fact, it was quite different

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Speaker 2: and even opposed. And I thought, well, that's something that

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Speaker 2: people don't know that I could tell them. And then

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Speaker 2: I also thought about my time working in Bulgaria, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I'd love those choir records, you know, the

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Speaker 2: Mysterio a bulgar and the Kutev Ensemble. And I was

343
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Speaker 2: always a bit head scratching, you know that those Bulgarian

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Speaker 2: national ensembles were so great, and the rest of the

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00:22:51,436 --> 00:22:55,876
Speaker 2: Eastern European state ensembles were a kitsch and kind of

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Speaker 2: weird and boring and you know, like acrobatic and what's

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Speaker 2: that all about? And then I had I talked to

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Speaker 2: Philip Kutev's daughter, who told me how much the Russians

349
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Speaker 2: hated her father and why they hated him because of

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Speaker 2: he used the authentic peasant voice in the choir and

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Speaker 2: how Stalin was trying to get the you know, completely

352
00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:28,236
Speaker 2: obliterate pleasant culture. And I thought, well, that's interesting too.

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Speaker 2: So these three things, these three ideas, the Cuban rhythms,

354
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Speaker 2: South African Zulu versus a NC, and Russians hating Bulgarian choirs.

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Speaker 2: There's stories in here that I would have fun telling people.

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Speaker 2: And I figured if these stories exist in Eastern Europe

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Speaker 2: and Cuba and South Africa, they probably exist. And I

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Speaker 2: knew enough about other cultures to know that there was

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00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:05,716
Speaker 2: probably some more fun stuff to dig up there. And

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Speaker 2: so I just got started. And that took me seventeen years,

361
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Speaker 2: and realize it's going to take that long.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Joe Boyd. After the

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Speaker 1: break in the history of the nineteenth and twentieth century

364
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Speaker 1: kind of does seem to be region to region, this

365
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Speaker 1: sort of repression and this sort of cultural movement bubbling

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Speaker 1: up from people to to counter state repression with art,

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Speaker 1: and your book really wonderfully tells that story. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: expecting that to be narratively done so well in your book.

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Speaker 1: But then there's also the way in which these cultures

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00:24:48,916 --> 00:24:51,756
Speaker 1: then shared. You know, all of the all of the

371
00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:56,996
Speaker 1: music moved around the globe and then back again. And

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00:24:57,076 --> 00:24:59,516
Speaker 1: so music from Africa would go to the Caribbean and

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Speaker 1: then back to Africa and then come to the States.

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Speaker 1: And there's this cultural exchange happening amongst cultures and countries

375
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Speaker 1: and various forms of music that we don't often think about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everything, I mean the take one of the takeaways

377
00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:20,316
Speaker 2: I hope people would get from the book is there

378
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Speaker 2: is no pure culture. There is no pure musical culture.

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Speaker 2: For sure, it's all mixed. It's all a blend. As

380
00:25:30,836 --> 00:25:36,076
Speaker 2: you said, it bubbles up from underneath, and underneath in

381
00:25:36,116 --> 00:25:43,836
Speaker 2: a way are two groups, Africans and Roma. I just

382
00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:47,796
Speaker 2: sort of realized, and I've realized almost more after I

383
00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:51,196
Speaker 2: finished the book and I've been touring and talking about

384
00:25:51,236 --> 00:25:54,116
Speaker 2: it and doing Q and a's and things like that.

385
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Speaker 2: One of the things I've realized is and I mentioned

386
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Speaker 2: in the book, but maybe I might have if I

387
00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:03,156
Speaker 2: went back and rewrote the book, I might make more

388
00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:06,716
Speaker 2: of a theme of it is the fact that going

389
00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:09,956
Speaker 2: way back, certainly to the beginning of that night eighteenth century,

390
00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:17,316
Speaker 2: what defines modernity is how African it is or how

391
00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:23,356
Speaker 2: Roma it is. You know, by the late nineteenth century, Cakewalk,

392
00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:30,276
Speaker 2: the Grizzly Bear, you know, the Charleston all that became

393
00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:35,516
Speaker 2: the dominant force of young for young people to dance to.

394
00:26:36,436 --> 00:26:40,036
Speaker 2: And if you weren't dancing to that sort of rhythm,

395
00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,636
Speaker 2: you were square. And if you go back a little

396
00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:48,356
Speaker 2: further to Gerta and the Romantics, who was the big

397
00:26:48,476 --> 00:26:52,836
Speaker 2: musical revolutionary list, you know, he was this matinee Idol

398
00:26:52,876 --> 00:26:57,476
Speaker 2: who toured across Europe with fainting females, and he modeled

399
00:26:57,476 --> 00:27:00,476
Speaker 2: his whole performance style on a roma musician that he

400
00:27:00,596 --> 00:27:03,476
Speaker 2: saw that was famous in Hungary when he was a kid.

401
00:27:04,516 --> 00:27:08,596
Speaker 2: And this flamboyance, this joy, this kind of decorate, taking

402
00:27:08,636 --> 00:27:11,796
Speaker 2: the note written on the page and decorating them and

403
00:27:11,836 --> 00:27:14,436
Speaker 2: playing them with trills and playing them with accents and

404
00:27:14,476 --> 00:27:19,756
Speaker 2: playing them in a crazy new way. That's Roma. It

405
00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:24,516
Speaker 2: defined what was new and what was shiny and what

406
00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:28,516
Speaker 2: was attractive to young people. You know, that's one of

407
00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:32,116
Speaker 2: the problems that European folk music has had, you know,

408
00:27:32,196 --> 00:27:34,996
Speaker 2: in the more recent the last fifty years, has been

409
00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:42,996
Speaker 2: that it lacks any kind of African feeling rhythmically and

410
00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:46,396
Speaker 2: therefore is consigned to being square.

411
00:27:47,076 --> 00:27:49,636
Speaker 1: You about it be English folk music in there's an

412
00:27:49,676 --> 00:27:52,436
Speaker 1: example for me discography that kind of illustrates the way

413
00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:56,916
Speaker 1: in which a group of people sometimes learn about themselves

414
00:27:56,956 --> 00:28:01,716
Speaker 1: best from outsiders. You know, outsiders can sort of reaffirm

415
00:28:01,756 --> 00:28:04,476
Speaker 1: your sense of who you are. And it's in this

416
00:28:04,676 --> 00:28:07,276
Speaker 1: sort of this example from the Fairport convention.

417
00:28:08,116 --> 00:28:09,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, convention.

418
00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:13,556
Speaker 1: It's not until nineteen sixty nine and they discover song

419
00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:17,956
Speaker 1: A Sailor's Life that they really embrace English folk music.

420
00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:21,596
Speaker 1: Prior to this they sort of are working more from

421
00:28:21,596 --> 00:28:24,356
Speaker 1: an American tradition. And maybe you can talk a bit

422
00:28:24,396 --> 00:28:25,196
Speaker 1: about that, because I think.

423
00:28:25,076 --> 00:28:29,516
Speaker 2: It's Yeah, when I first heard Fairport, I was very

424
00:28:29,596 --> 00:28:33,236
Speaker 2: impressed with their musicianship. The upside was how good they

425
00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:38,916
Speaker 2: were in particularly Richard Thompson on their instruments. The downside

426
00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:44,396
Speaker 2: was they kept singing, you know, Richard Farina, Eric Anderson

427
00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:48,436
Speaker 2: and Phil Oakes and to be fair, Bob some very

428
00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:53,076
Speaker 2: good Bob Dylan songs. But I thought, why are these

429
00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:56,116
Speaker 2: English kids so wrapped in this music that I kind

430
00:28:56,156 --> 00:28:59,876
Speaker 2: of left America to get away from No, I mean,

431
00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:02,916
Speaker 2: I just would never that sold on the white middle

432
00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:07,636
Speaker 2: class singer songwriter idea, and so then they added Sandy

433
00:29:07,716 --> 00:29:11,196
Speaker 2: Denny to the group. And Sandy had been around the

434
00:29:11,196 --> 00:29:15,116
Speaker 2: folk clubs for a few years and she had never

435
00:29:15,156 --> 00:29:18,916
Speaker 2: been a songwriter. Before, she had been a balladeer. She

436
00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:24,236
Speaker 2: sang traditional Scottish Irish English ballads and she would play

437
00:29:24,276 --> 00:29:27,036
Speaker 2: these ballads to them in the van when they would

438
00:29:27,036 --> 00:29:30,436
Speaker 2: go to gigs, and little by little it kind of

439
00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:33,076
Speaker 2: got through to them. And so then they did that

440
00:29:33,156 --> 00:29:36,876
Speaker 2: track You mentioned Sailor's Life, but they just still thought

441
00:29:36,876 --> 00:29:41,996
Speaker 2: of it as one string to their bow. You know.

442
00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:45,076
Speaker 2: One thing that they did along with other things. Richard

443
00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:49,236
Speaker 2: and Sandy were writing songs that was a new aspect,

444
00:29:49,276 --> 00:29:52,756
Speaker 2: new dimension of their music. And then they had this

445
00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:57,836
Speaker 2: terrible crash and the drummer, Martin Lamble, was killed and

446
00:29:58,716 --> 00:30:03,796
Speaker 2: a girl, Jeanie the Taylor, was killed as well, and

447
00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:06,756
Speaker 2: they were devastated and they thought they would break up.

448
00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:09,596
Speaker 2: They would never play again, and then when they decided

449
00:30:09,596 --> 00:30:13,116
Speaker 2: to reform, they wanted to do something completely new, so

450
00:30:13,156 --> 00:30:16,756
Speaker 2: they would never play the songs that they played with

451
00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:21,516
Speaker 2: Martin on drums with a new drummer. That was the idea,

452
00:30:21,836 --> 00:30:25,716
Speaker 2: and right at that time out came music from Big Pink,

453
00:30:26,556 --> 00:30:32,356
Speaker 2: and everybody, all musicians in London were just gobsmacked, as

454
00:30:32,356 --> 00:30:36,356
Speaker 2: the English say, by music from Big Pink. And again

455
00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:40,476
Speaker 2: there's a little outsider element there because they're Canadians, but

456
00:30:40,676 --> 00:30:45,756
Speaker 2: still what they were doing was a fresh approach to

457
00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:53,956
Speaker 2: a very American form of music and building something unbelievably original,

458
00:30:55,316 --> 00:31:02,556
Speaker 2: appealing virtuasak all this, you know, with that record, And

459
00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:05,156
Speaker 2: in a way they were following on from Bob Dylan

460
00:31:05,516 --> 00:31:11,036
Speaker 2: at Newport in nineteen sixty five more than Bob Dylan was, yeah,

461
00:31:11,076 --> 00:31:15,676
Speaker 2: and doing something really rich and interesting. And so in

462
00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:21,396
Speaker 2: a way it hit the Fairport like a rebuke. Like

463
00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:25,276
Speaker 2: you English boys from Muswell Hill, you think you can

464
00:31:25,316 --> 00:31:29,476
Speaker 2: play some American stuff, you know, is how you want

465
00:31:29,516 --> 00:31:33,516
Speaker 2: to reinvent yourself after the crash, forget about it. This

466
00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:39,636
Speaker 2: is defining that moment. And so they really went to

467
00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:44,676
Speaker 2: try and do with British traditional music. What the band

468
00:31:44,916 --> 00:31:48,756
Speaker 2: was doing with American traditional music. And they were so

469
00:31:49,076 --> 00:31:51,476
Speaker 2: lucky because they found well a lot they were clever.

470
00:31:51,676 --> 00:31:56,476
Speaker 2: They found a drummer in Dave Masseox who was not

471
00:31:57,036 --> 00:31:59,996
Speaker 2: a rock drummer. He was a jazz drummer. He was

472
00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:04,916
Speaker 2: a dance band drummer, and he found the dance rhythms

473
00:32:04,956 --> 00:32:09,796
Speaker 2: in all the songs that they wanted to play. The

474
00:32:09,876 --> 00:32:13,796
Speaker 2: record is just comes alive, you know. Because of that

475
00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:18,356
Speaker 2: mix and adding Dave Swarbrick, who was a very wonderful

476
00:32:18,396 --> 00:32:23,236
Speaker 2: traditional fiddle player into the band, made this record that

477
00:32:23,396 --> 00:32:27,836
Speaker 2: changed everything in Britain in the folk scene anyway. Legion Leaf, Yeah,

478
00:32:28,196 --> 00:32:29,356
Speaker 2: he already had a huge.

479
00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:34,796
Speaker 1: Impact, and he brings in the rhythms that you know,

480
00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:38,076
Speaker 1: to your point where English folk music could be seen

481
00:32:38,116 --> 00:32:40,076
Speaker 1: a square, he sort of starts to bring in some

482
00:32:40,156 --> 00:32:41,836
Speaker 1: rhythms that maybe help you.

483
00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:43,876
Speaker 2: Yeah, he does it with jazz chops.

484
00:32:44,316 --> 00:32:44,516
Speaker 1: Yeah.

485
00:32:44,996 --> 00:32:47,316
Speaker 2: At that time, I don't think Legion and Leaf was

486
00:32:48,356 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 2: at the top of the list of the hippist records

487
00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:56,636
Speaker 2: on the charts, but it was a lot hipper than

488
00:32:57,196 --> 00:33:03,956
Speaker 2: any other folk record at that time, and it captured

489
00:33:03,956 --> 00:33:08,236
Speaker 2: the imagination of a certain portion of the audience.

490
00:33:08,716 --> 00:33:10,596
Speaker 1: It's just fascinating to me that this group that we

491
00:33:10,596 --> 00:33:14,876
Speaker 1: think of as a consummate English folk group starts because

492
00:33:14,876 --> 00:33:18,756
Speaker 1: they're sort of doing American folk music. In the process,

493
00:33:18,796 --> 00:33:25,156
Speaker 1: we discover the English folk tradition. Canadian group does Americana

494
00:33:25,236 --> 00:33:31,036
Speaker 1: better than and the American possibly could, and then forces

495
00:33:31,676 --> 00:33:36,156
Speaker 1: Fairport Convention to confront who they you know, their own roots,

496
00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:37,716
Speaker 1: and who they are as people.

497
00:33:37,796 --> 00:33:42,156
Speaker 2: And this process repeats and repeats. I mean, one of

498
00:33:42,156 --> 00:33:43,916
Speaker 2: the things I talk about in the book is that

499
00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:48,436
Speaker 2: back and forth was Fela and James Brown. Yeah, you

500
00:33:48,476 --> 00:33:54,916
Speaker 2: know that somebody said about when James Brown's extended jams,

501
00:33:54,956 --> 00:34:00,516
Speaker 2: you know, extended dance tracks began making inroads. There's a

502
00:34:00,556 --> 00:34:04,676
Speaker 2: woman writer who I quoted the book saying those records

503
00:34:05,596 --> 00:34:10,516
Speaker 2: told us that we were really from somewhere else, that

504
00:34:10,676 --> 00:34:15,956
Speaker 2: Africa was really over there, that there was something different

505
00:34:16,116 --> 00:34:22,516
Speaker 2: about African American culture. And then Fela, you know, who

506
00:34:22,556 --> 00:34:28,396
Speaker 2: had been watching as James Brown imitators spread all across

507
00:34:28,436 --> 00:34:32,716
Speaker 2: West Africa, people imitating James Brown, very slavishly, trying to

508
00:34:32,756 --> 00:34:37,076
Speaker 2: sound exactly like James Brown. And then he came to

509
00:34:37,356 --> 00:34:43,236
Speaker 2: La and somehow that exposure to black panthers to the

510
00:34:43,396 --> 00:34:48,436
Speaker 2: music to the culture. He went back to Nigeria and

511
00:34:48,476 --> 00:34:55,396
Speaker 2: created something that was a bit James brownish but very Nigerian. Yeah,

512
00:34:55,676 --> 00:34:59,756
Speaker 2: and so that back and forth happens, you know, not

513
00:35:00,036 --> 00:35:03,836
Speaker 2: just between the band and Pairful Convention. And by the way,

514
00:35:03,876 --> 00:35:07,236
Speaker 2: there was a lovely footnote to the Pairful Convention story

515
00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:10,916
Speaker 2: that many years later later, an English singer who I

516
00:35:10,956 --> 00:35:13,996
Speaker 2: know was playing at the festival and he met the

517
00:35:14,036 --> 00:35:17,796
Speaker 2: guys from Los Lobos and they said, oh, do you

518
00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:20,916
Speaker 2: know Richard Thompson in the Federal Convention. He said, yeah,

519
00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:23,516
Speaker 2: I know those guys. They're friends of mine. He said, well,

520
00:35:23,516 --> 00:35:27,516
Speaker 2: when you see them, tell them that if it hadn't

521
00:35:27,556 --> 00:35:31,196
Speaker 2: been for Legion Leif, we would have still been a

522
00:35:31,236 --> 00:35:35,956
Speaker 2: heavy metal band from East la whoa that it was

523
00:35:36,036 --> 00:35:40,876
Speaker 2: Legion Leif which convinced Los Lobos to dig into their

524
00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:42,676
Speaker 2: own cultural background.

525
00:35:44,276 --> 00:35:47,156
Speaker 1: You would never listen to Los Lobos here, Legion Leaf

526
00:35:47,276 --> 00:35:47,556
Speaker 1: that is.

527
00:35:48,716 --> 00:35:52,076
Speaker 2: But it's just a conceptual thing. It's like like that,

528
00:35:52,236 --> 00:35:54,676
Speaker 2: oh oh, maybe that's what we should do instead of

529
00:35:54,716 --> 00:35:58,076
Speaker 2: trying to sound like you know, def lepper.

530
00:35:58,796 --> 00:36:03,876
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's an additional wrinkle really in a

531
00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:08,676
Speaker 1: way to the James Brown Fela interplayed and if you

532
00:36:08,716 --> 00:36:14,156
Speaker 1: think about it, slave trade initiates from Africa in Cuba,

533
00:36:14,596 --> 00:36:19,116
Speaker 1: you get these African rhythms that start to form and influence,

534
00:36:19,756 --> 00:36:24,396
Speaker 1: you know, the music of Cuba. You get things like

535
00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:28,916
Speaker 1: the habanera you talk about, which is a Cuban rhythm,

536
00:36:29,996 --> 00:36:34,636
Speaker 1: Havana rhythm. Right, it comes to America likely i'd imagine

537
00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:39,876
Speaker 1: through New Orleans probably, yeah, and you get these these

538
00:36:39,956 --> 00:36:42,516
Speaker 1: rhythms that starts to influence early R and B music,

539
00:36:42,796 --> 00:36:46,316
Speaker 1: which would then of course influence James Brown, which would

540
00:36:46,316 --> 00:36:50,676
Speaker 1: then influence Fela fala Is also taking in Cuban music.

541
00:36:50,996 --> 00:36:52,716
Speaker 1: Happened to be a big fan of Cuban music, was

542
00:36:52,756 --> 00:36:55,556
Speaker 1: taken in those records directly as well. Comes to America,

543
00:36:55,636 --> 00:36:57,316
Speaker 1: picks up the James Brown goes back, you know, and

544
00:36:57,356 --> 00:36:59,756
Speaker 1: you sort of so you start to get this really

545
00:36:59,796 --> 00:37:05,316
Speaker 1: bizarre Africa influence being Cuba going back to Africa through

546
00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:08,756
Speaker 1: this James Brown connection in FLA, and it just becomes

547
00:37:08,796 --> 00:37:12,716
Speaker 1: like whoa, Like there's no there really are no boundaries,

548
00:37:12,756 --> 00:37:14,956
Speaker 1: there's no borders, there's yeah.

549
00:37:15,396 --> 00:37:21,356
Speaker 2: Yeah. The whole extended jams of those James Brown records

550
00:37:21,396 --> 00:37:25,796
Speaker 2: from the late sixties early seventies were inspired by the

551
00:37:25,876 --> 00:37:32,876
Speaker 2: Montuno you know, the the scratch guitar parts are most

552
00:37:32,876 --> 00:37:37,276
Speaker 2: of them are clavi one two one two three, one

553
00:37:37,316 --> 00:37:40,756
Speaker 2: two one two three one two one two three. So

554
00:37:40,876 --> 00:37:45,236
Speaker 2: you have the the influence of Latin Africa, Cuban music

555
00:37:46,236 --> 00:37:51,396
Speaker 2: into America into Africa, meeting in the middle of the Atlantic.

556
00:37:51,756 --> 00:37:56,836
Speaker 2: And you know you're never going to get a simple diagram, no,

557
00:37:57,116 --> 00:38:00,516
Speaker 2: you know, a linear explanation of anything to do with

558
00:38:00,676 --> 00:38:05,036
Speaker 2: music culture. It's so whirls around in the wind. You know.

559
00:38:05,156 --> 00:38:10,236
Speaker 1: It's yeah, whether history is of any trees or cultures

560
00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:16,036
Speaker 1: you considered including but ultimately didn't get didn't get to.

561
00:38:16,636 --> 00:38:21,036
Speaker 2: Not really because basically the idea from the beginning was

562
00:38:22,676 --> 00:38:28,316
Speaker 2: the music we all know but we don't know about it.

563
00:38:29,796 --> 00:38:38,396
Speaker 2: So I love Rebetico, I love Fado, I love Northern

564
00:38:38,436 --> 00:38:44,116
Speaker 2: African music, Algerian, Moroccan, Egyptian. That would have made it

565
00:38:44,156 --> 00:38:47,756
Speaker 2: a different book. Okay, you know everything that's in this

566
00:38:47,836 --> 00:38:51,516
Speaker 2: book is suddenly said, oh yeah, I've got a couple

567
00:38:51,556 --> 00:38:56,956
Speaker 2: of Ravi Shankar records, I'll read that, or I took

568
00:38:57,076 --> 00:38:59,916
Speaker 2: those Latin dance lessons when I was in college. And

569
00:39:00,196 --> 00:39:04,916
Speaker 2: you know, I mean everything in there is hopefully got

570
00:39:05,036 --> 00:39:11,356
Speaker 2: some tangential relationship to people's ex experience, listening experience with music.

571
00:39:12,876 --> 00:39:18,556
Speaker 1: How is digital distribution in the modern age aided and

572
00:39:18,836 --> 00:39:25,436
Speaker 1: or disrupted this global flow of music that you illustrate

573
00:39:25,476 --> 00:39:25,916
Speaker 1: in the book.

574
00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:30,156
Speaker 2: Well, in some levels, of course, it aided it, you know.

575
00:39:30,596 --> 00:39:34,556
Speaker 2: I mean, my wife and I put together two playlists

576
00:39:34,796 --> 00:39:39,436
Speaker 2: of one hundred tracks each on Spotify and Apple. You

577
00:39:39,476 --> 00:39:42,916
Speaker 2: know that we can send out. I'm preparing a newsletter

578
00:39:42,996 --> 00:39:46,716
Speaker 2: that'll send this out to everybody. And that's great, you know.

579
00:39:46,796 --> 00:39:50,196
Speaker 2: And I can and in my research I was able

580
00:39:50,236 --> 00:39:54,076
Speaker 2: to dig things out on YouTube and Spotify and hear

581
00:39:54,196 --> 00:39:56,196
Speaker 2: things that I never would have been able to hear,

582
00:39:56,956 --> 00:39:59,636
Speaker 2: and to write about it in a way that probably

583
00:39:59,636 --> 00:40:03,396
Speaker 2: I couldn't have some in some cases. And I think

584
00:40:03,436 --> 00:40:08,236
Speaker 2: that a lot of the changes that have pulled music

585
00:40:08,316 --> 00:40:10,796
Speaker 2: away from the sort of thing that I like listening

586
00:40:10,836 --> 00:40:18,436
Speaker 2: to didn't happen because of digital distribution. I think, you know,

587
00:40:18,516 --> 00:40:22,476
Speaker 2: the traditional record companies that made so many great records

588
00:40:22,516 --> 00:40:27,556
Speaker 2: and pressed so much great vinyl, and that whole ecosystem

589
00:40:27,996 --> 00:40:33,676
Speaker 2: of vinyl records and jukeboxes, and you know that was

590
00:40:33,796 --> 00:40:39,876
Speaker 2: destroyed by the cassette first and foremost. So on the

591
00:40:39,876 --> 00:40:44,516
Speaker 2: one hand, you know, technology gives with one hand takes

592
00:40:44,556 --> 00:40:47,636
Speaker 2: away with the other, and the same thing has happened

593
00:40:47,676 --> 00:40:51,396
Speaker 2: with then happened with CDs and the death of vinyl,

594
00:40:51,956 --> 00:40:57,356
Speaker 2: the rebirth of vinyl. The biggest change has been the

595
00:40:57,996 --> 00:41:01,116
Speaker 2: rhythm machines. You know, in terms of the music that

596
00:41:01,196 --> 00:41:05,356
Speaker 2: I write about in this book, I write about music

597
00:41:05,396 --> 00:41:10,796
Speaker 2: that's made by people in a room in moment, playing

598
00:41:10,836 --> 00:41:15,636
Speaker 2: off each other. You know, rhythms that have been learned

599
00:41:15,836 --> 00:41:21,476
Speaker 2: from elders to youngers, that have been absorbed through culture.

600
00:41:23,956 --> 00:41:27,436
Speaker 2: And now you know, rhythms fly around the world very fast,

601
00:41:27,556 --> 00:41:30,676
Speaker 2: and you can, you know, you can, you know, sit

602
00:41:31,036 --> 00:41:35,796
Speaker 2: in Tokyo and hire somebody to give you a rhythm

603
00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:41,236
Speaker 2: track in Marseille, send it to you digitally and you

604
00:41:41,276 --> 00:41:45,796
Speaker 2: can relay a Japanese wrap track over it. It's just

605
00:41:45,836 --> 00:41:48,476
Speaker 2: a different thing. It's a whole different thing. And I

606
00:41:48,716 --> 00:41:51,716
Speaker 2: you know, people say, how far up to the present

607
00:41:51,796 --> 00:41:55,356
Speaker 2: did you write the book? I said, really, I wrote

608
00:41:55,356 --> 00:42:01,476
Speaker 2: from antiquity up to the drum machine, because that's where

609
00:42:01,556 --> 00:42:04,796
Speaker 2: everything changes and it becomes a different subject and not

610
00:42:04,876 --> 00:42:08,116
Speaker 2: one that I could really address and keep the book

611
00:42:08,196 --> 00:42:09,476
Speaker 2: under nine hundred pages.

612
00:42:09,956 --> 00:42:12,916
Speaker 1: You know, there's another question I had, what do you

613
00:42:12,956 --> 00:42:14,196
Speaker 1: make of hip hop and sampling?

614
00:42:16,796 --> 00:42:18,876
Speaker 2: You know, when I hear even with it like a

615
00:42:18,876 --> 00:42:25,556
Speaker 2: singer songwriter, and from the first bar, I know that

616
00:42:25,636 --> 00:42:30,196
Speaker 2: there's a clip track going on here. It's not that

617
00:42:30,276 --> 00:42:34,236
Speaker 2: you can even hear the percussion. It's just you can

618
00:42:34,276 --> 00:42:40,516
Speaker 2: hear the regularity. You can hear the absolute inflexible regularity

619
00:42:40,636 --> 00:42:44,796
Speaker 2: of the rhythm. And sometimes I'll hear very nice singing

620
00:42:45,276 --> 00:42:49,356
Speaker 2: and a very nice words. But I don't feel I

621
00:42:49,396 --> 00:42:52,836
Speaker 2: have to listen to it again. To me, I don't know.

622
00:42:52,876 --> 00:42:56,796
Speaker 2: This is just my crack pop theory. If music was

623
00:42:56,836 --> 00:42:58,716
Speaker 2: made in a moment where nobody knew what was going

624
00:42:58,756 --> 00:43:02,836
Speaker 2: to happen next, from beat to beat, minute to minute,

625
00:43:03,076 --> 00:43:08,316
Speaker 2: that sense of danger, that sense of adventure. You're not

626
00:43:08,476 --> 00:43:12,356
Speaker 2: just laying it down with your heads and earphones. You know,

627
00:43:12,436 --> 00:43:15,636
Speaker 2: with a click track somebody sent you and you're adding

628
00:43:16,156 --> 00:43:18,756
Speaker 2: a base part to something that already has a keyboard.

629
00:43:19,516 --> 00:43:22,036
Speaker 2: You know, if you're doing it live in a room

630
00:43:22,116 --> 00:43:24,796
Speaker 2: with musicians and nobody knows how it's going to turn out.

631
00:43:24,916 --> 00:43:26,476
Speaker 2: Is it going to be a good take or a

632
00:43:26,516 --> 00:43:35,476
Speaker 2: bad take. It's a collective adventure. Yeah, That feeling passed

633
00:43:35,516 --> 00:43:40,836
Speaker 2: through the technical process to the final product, whether it's

634
00:43:40,876 --> 00:43:45,596
Speaker 2: a streaming file or a CD or a cassette or

635
00:43:45,676 --> 00:43:50,916
Speaker 2: a vinyl or whatever it is, When the listener gets

636
00:43:50,956 --> 00:43:55,876
Speaker 2: some of that sense of adventure, it translates. It feels

637
00:43:56,076 --> 00:43:59,756
Speaker 2: more adventurous to listen to for me.

638
00:43:59,876 --> 00:44:03,916
Speaker 1: Anyway, Well that's break and we'll come back with Joe Boyd.

639
00:44:08,516 --> 00:44:12,756
Speaker 1: There was a you know, and Prince famously used the

640
00:44:13,076 --> 00:44:18,756
Speaker 1: lind drum and various rhythm machines and drum machines. But

641
00:44:18,916 --> 00:44:22,436
Speaker 1: you know, he forgat which hip hop producer was now,

642
00:44:22,916 --> 00:44:24,516
Speaker 1: like we won't say a name because I don't remember

643
00:44:24,516 --> 00:44:26,076
Speaker 1: who it was, but a very famous hip hop producer.

644
00:44:26,116 --> 00:44:27,876
Speaker 1: At some point I had a conversation with Prince, and

645
00:44:27,916 --> 00:44:30,876
Speaker 1: Prince said, you know what you're making these Like, I know,

646
00:44:30,956 --> 00:44:34,676
Speaker 1: I used drum machines, but like you guys are only

647
00:44:34,676 --> 00:44:37,356
Speaker 1: producing on the computer. At least with the drum machine,

648
00:44:38,196 --> 00:44:40,276
Speaker 1: I would connect it to speaker. I was moving I

649
00:44:40,396 --> 00:44:43,836
Speaker 1: was moving air still with my drum machine. Yeah, you know,

650
00:44:43,916 --> 00:44:45,836
Speaker 1: I was moving air with it and then adding other

651
00:44:45,836 --> 00:44:48,036
Speaker 1: things on top of it. You're only creating in a computer,

652
00:44:48,076 --> 00:44:50,116
Speaker 1: and this is so this isn't music. There's no air

653
00:44:50,196 --> 00:44:53,796
Speaker 1: being moved at all. Yeah, that is a great example

654
00:44:53,796 --> 00:44:56,156
Speaker 1: of why Prince was great with the drum machine. And

655
00:44:56,196 --> 00:44:56,796
Speaker 1: it's sort of.

656
00:44:56,956 --> 00:45:00,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, he's an exception that kind of

657
00:45:00,516 --> 00:45:04,116
Speaker 2: proves the role or whatever because he did. But I

658
00:45:04,156 --> 00:45:06,956
Speaker 2: have to say I went to see Prince one of

659
00:45:06,956 --> 00:45:09,876
Speaker 2: the early times she came to London. It wasn't in

660
00:45:09,876 --> 00:45:14,076
Speaker 2: an arena. It was in like a three thousand seat hall,

661
00:45:14,116 --> 00:45:17,596
Speaker 2: and I had a pretty good box seat overlooking the stage,

662
00:45:17,636 --> 00:45:19,956
Speaker 2: and I was kind of excited to see him, and

663
00:45:20,716 --> 00:45:23,716
Speaker 2: but you know, there were light effects and there was

664
00:45:23,836 --> 00:45:28,636
Speaker 2: things going on. Everybody had a little earbud and so

665
00:45:28,716 --> 00:45:32,236
Speaker 2: you knew that somewhere underneath the stage there was a

666
00:45:32,236 --> 00:45:37,836
Speaker 2: hard drive with something queueing, you know, like a pulse,

667
00:45:39,236 --> 00:45:45,716
Speaker 2: and it got a little boring, a little tiring after

668
00:45:45,796 --> 00:45:49,716
Speaker 2: a while, and then there was this moment where you

669
00:45:49,756 --> 00:45:53,436
Speaker 2: could tell that he it switched off and Prince just

670
00:45:53,476 --> 00:45:55,836
Speaker 2: got out his guitar and he started playing Purple Rain

671
00:45:55,916 --> 00:46:00,676
Speaker 2: I think or something, and he was completely free of

672
00:46:00,716 --> 00:46:04,436
Speaker 2: the click and it was just transcendent. You know, it's

673
00:46:04,516 --> 00:46:07,876
Speaker 2: just realiant. It was just fantastic. I went to Lee

674
00:46:07,916 --> 00:46:10,036
Speaker 2: years later. I went to see him at the O

675
00:46:10,196 --> 00:46:14,636
Speaker 2: two and I got so there's some weird connection. My

676
00:46:14,716 --> 00:46:19,276
Speaker 2: second cousin was playing keyboards in the opening act, and

677
00:46:19,356 --> 00:46:21,996
Speaker 2: so I got to go backstage. And then we went

678
00:46:22,036 --> 00:46:24,276
Speaker 2: to the after party, which the after show, which was

679
00:46:24,316 --> 00:46:29,916
Speaker 2: in a small theater behind the two and some of

680
00:46:29,956 --> 00:46:32,956
Speaker 2: the people in the back in the in the opening

681
00:46:32,996 --> 00:46:36,596
Speaker 2: band and some of Prince's guys. They all were out

682
00:46:36,636 --> 00:46:40,356
Speaker 2: on stage like hooking up their instruments, and Prince walked

683
00:46:40,396 --> 00:46:43,356
Speaker 2: out on stage and he went up to the microphone

684
00:46:43,356 --> 00:46:45,276
Speaker 2: and he looked around at the band. He looked around.

685
00:46:45,316 --> 00:46:48,876
Speaker 2: He said, let's do Stevie. And so they did an

686
00:46:48,996 --> 00:46:54,356
Speaker 2: hour long set of Stevie Wonder covers, just no click,

687
00:46:54,796 --> 00:46:58,996
Speaker 2: nothing rehearsed, just these guys, this great band and Prince

688
00:46:59,116 --> 00:47:04,436
Speaker 2: playing Superstition and you know, all this stuff. And then

689
00:47:04,636 --> 00:47:07,556
Speaker 2: they take a break and they said we'll be back,

690
00:47:08,396 --> 00:47:12,076
Speaker 2: and they come back like fifteen minutes later, and again

691
00:47:12,156 --> 00:47:14,996
Speaker 2: everybody goes their instruments. They're all sitting there waiting, what's

692
00:47:15,036 --> 00:47:17,236
Speaker 2: Prince is going to do? And he goes up to

693
00:47:17,236 --> 00:47:23,036
Speaker 2: the microphone. He says, Sly and they did an hour

694
00:47:23,156 --> 00:47:29,716
Speaker 2: of Sly covers and it was just fantastic, you know, yeah,

695
00:47:30,316 --> 00:47:32,716
Speaker 2: and I did I have to say, I loved it

696
00:47:32,996 --> 00:47:37,076
Speaker 2: more than the show, which was good.

697
00:47:37,756 --> 00:47:40,436
Speaker 1: Oh than the two show, yeah, the O two show.

698
00:47:40,676 --> 00:47:42,876
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I had a good seat and everything, but

699
00:47:44,156 --> 00:47:46,916
Speaker 2: it was you know, you could feel it was very programmed.

700
00:47:46,996 --> 00:47:49,836
Speaker 2: Everybody knew exactly when the cues were and the whites

701
00:47:49,876 --> 00:47:52,876
Speaker 2: did this, and the you know, and even though the

702
00:47:52,956 --> 00:47:56,196
Speaker 2: drummer was playing but he you know, everybody had had

703
00:47:56,396 --> 00:48:00,476
Speaker 2: had earbuds and you know, it was okay, it was

704
00:48:00,516 --> 00:48:04,396
Speaker 2: a good show, but that after party was never to

705
00:48:04,436 --> 00:48:05,756
Speaker 2: be forgotten.

706
00:48:06,676 --> 00:48:10,076
Speaker 1: In hindsight. Who knew the unfocused the drummer you can

707
00:48:10,116 --> 00:48:12,396
Speaker 1: never get to pay attention or foot would be our

708
00:48:12,436 --> 00:48:18,116
Speaker 1: greatest asset all these years. But it's like, you know,

709
00:48:18,516 --> 00:48:21,916
Speaker 1: the drummer speeding up or change into it. It's like that, really,

710
00:48:22,836 --> 00:48:23,036
Speaker 1: you know.

711
00:48:23,156 --> 00:48:26,516
Speaker 2: But you know, sometimes, yes, of course, there are times

712
00:48:26,516 --> 00:48:29,156
Speaker 2: when you as a producer, you tear your hair out

713
00:48:29,196 --> 00:48:35,116
Speaker 2: because the drummer can't keep time. But other times it

714
00:48:35,316 --> 00:48:40,436
Speaker 2: just picks up. The intensity sort of picks up in

715
00:48:40,556 --> 00:48:45,876
Speaker 2: a nanosecond just because something has happened, somebody's done something

716
00:48:45,876 --> 00:48:48,876
Speaker 2: on an instrument, and everything just gets that little more intense,

717
00:48:48,916 --> 00:48:52,076
Speaker 2: and everything just picks up a little bit. And also,

718
00:48:52,116 --> 00:48:55,996
Speaker 2: I mean and now there's some you know, Al Jackson

719
00:48:56,076 --> 00:48:59,596
Speaker 2: and some of those, you know, you can't define it.

720
00:48:59,596 --> 00:49:03,876
Speaker 2: It's just he lays back, he plays at the it's

721
00:49:03,876 --> 00:49:07,196
Speaker 2: the last moment that can the last nanosecond that can

722
00:49:07,236 --> 00:49:12,116
Speaker 2: still be considered the beat. Yeah, and it's and it's

723
00:49:12,156 --> 00:49:16,036
Speaker 2: got a sensuality to it that a lot of modern

724
00:49:16,036 --> 00:49:19,076
Speaker 2: references just are different. You know, it's not the same thing.

725
00:49:20,756 --> 00:49:23,396
Speaker 1: And it's also the way that he's playing behind the

726
00:49:23,396 --> 00:49:27,236
Speaker 1: beat in relation to Duck Dunn or yeah, exactly on

727
00:49:27,356 --> 00:49:30,636
Speaker 1: playing bass or yeah, it's all or if you listen

728
00:49:30,636 --> 00:49:36,156
Speaker 1: to or the Carl it's it's the way, Yeah, the

729
00:49:36,236 --> 00:49:39,196
Speaker 1: piano players unique sense of rhythm against the bass player's

730
00:49:39,316 --> 00:49:42,596
Speaker 1: unique sense against Tito's against it's and it's just all

731
00:49:42,636 --> 00:49:43,796
Speaker 1: working against each other.

732
00:49:44,676 --> 00:49:47,396
Speaker 2: If anyone ever says, well, I don't know, I don't

733
00:49:47,396 --> 00:49:50,036
Speaker 2: think you're I don't think you're right. I you know,

734
00:49:50,076 --> 00:49:55,556
Speaker 2: everybody should playing time, I would say Exhibit A would

735
00:49:55,556 --> 00:50:01,236
Speaker 2: be try a little tenderness. You know, the way it begins,

736
00:50:01,716 --> 00:50:03,996
Speaker 2: you know, it's just I think it's just a guitar

737
00:50:04,196 --> 00:50:07,556
Speaker 2: and then just a piano comes in and it's very

738
00:50:07,596 --> 00:50:12,996
Speaker 2: tenderative rhythmically, and everybody's just listening to Otis singing, and

739
00:50:13,156 --> 00:50:17,796
Speaker 2: then it grows and then it speeds up and it

740
00:50:17,836 --> 00:50:20,676
Speaker 2: gets more into you know, It's like the difference between

741
00:50:20,716 --> 00:50:23,556
Speaker 2: the feel at the end of that track and the

742
00:50:23,596 --> 00:50:28,836
Speaker 2: field at the beginning is a journey, unbelievable journey. And

743
00:50:29,556 --> 00:50:34,036
Speaker 2: it's you could just feel the room these guys just

744
00:50:34,076 --> 00:50:37,516
Speaker 2: looking at each other. Yeah, shall I do this now? Okay, Okay,

745
00:50:37,556 --> 00:50:41,556
Speaker 2: I'll try that. Okay. Oh wow, Otis just did something

746
00:50:41,596 --> 00:50:45,356
Speaker 2: and let's answer that. And you know, and it's just

747
00:50:45,556 --> 00:50:47,316
Speaker 2: so intense that track.

748
00:50:47,876 --> 00:50:50,276
Speaker 1: I feel like reading the book thinking about that. I

749
00:50:50,316 --> 00:50:52,276
Speaker 1: love I've always loved to talk about it a bit,

750
00:50:52,396 --> 00:50:56,836
Speaker 1: just the way cultures interact, interplay that the great boogeyman

751
00:50:57,876 --> 00:51:00,996
Speaker 1: around this conversation these days is the word cultural appropriation.

752
00:51:01,916 --> 00:51:04,676
Speaker 1: On one head, I understand the critique. On another hand,

753
00:51:04,716 --> 00:51:09,396
Speaker 1: I hate that just the existence of the word could

754
00:51:09,436 --> 00:51:13,476
Speaker 1: put in to anyone thinking about borrowing this from that

755
00:51:13,516 --> 00:51:16,196
Speaker 1: culture or this thing from that culture, and then putting

756
00:51:16,236 --> 00:51:18,716
Speaker 1: it together into their own thing and making it something

757
00:51:18,796 --> 00:51:19,876
Speaker 1: completely unique.

758
00:51:20,676 --> 00:51:23,476
Speaker 2: In the events that I do, Andrea County is usually

759
00:51:23,516 --> 00:51:28,476
Speaker 2: with me, and she's running the Spotify streamer. When we

760
00:51:28,516 --> 00:51:32,436
Speaker 2: want to have illustrations. I say, okay, let's go to

761
00:51:32,516 --> 00:51:37,636
Speaker 2: the heart of cultural appropriation. Here is the error moment

762
00:51:37,676 --> 00:51:41,756
Speaker 2: of cultural appropriation. And we play The Lions Sleeps Tonight,

763
00:51:42,716 --> 00:51:45,596
Speaker 2: and then we play wim Away. And you know, Pete

764
00:51:45,636 --> 00:51:48,516
Speaker 2: Seeger is a heroic figure who always was for the underdog,

765
00:51:48,636 --> 00:51:52,316
Speaker 2: and he was, you know, for fairness and you know,

766
00:51:52,356 --> 00:51:54,876
Speaker 2: but he was in an era when anything that you

767
00:51:54,916 --> 00:52:00,676
Speaker 2: didn't have a composer credit was considered public domain or

768
00:52:00,836 --> 00:52:04,876
Speaker 2: you know whatever. So he's getting money from wim Away.

769
00:52:04,956 --> 00:52:07,236
Speaker 2: He's getting a little bit more a bit of the

770
00:52:07,276 --> 00:52:11,356
Speaker 2: money from the Lions Tonight. And then I play boobe

771
00:52:12,156 --> 00:52:19,396
Speaker 2: which is the original. And it's fascinating to see to

772
00:52:19,596 --> 00:52:24,836
Speaker 2: feel the audience because they know Lions Sleeps Tonight by

773
00:52:24,876 --> 00:52:28,516
Speaker 2: the tokens that everybody knows that they know Pete Seeger

774
00:52:28,596 --> 00:52:32,436
Speaker 2: singing wom Away. That's familiar, or at least it's not surprising.

775
00:52:33,276 --> 00:52:37,036
Speaker 2: Then they hear him Boobey. It's so intense and so

776
00:52:37,316 --> 00:52:43,716
Speaker 2: profound and so rich and so individual, like this guy

777
00:52:43,876 --> 00:52:50,796
Speaker 2: Solomon Linda who improvises the hook that has made millions

778
00:52:50,836 --> 00:52:54,756
Speaker 2: and millions and millions of dollars for Disney. Now that

779
00:52:55,476 --> 00:53:00,236
Speaker 2: the fact that no money reached Solomon Linda is cultural appropriation.

780
00:53:01,476 --> 00:53:05,276
Speaker 2: That is cultural appropriation. There's a series now on in

781
00:53:05,316 --> 00:53:11,276
Speaker 2: a film on Netflix called The Lions Share about the

782
00:53:11,396 --> 00:53:17,156
Speaker 2: royalties of the Lions Sleep Tonight. It's fascinating, it's depressing,

783
00:53:17,716 --> 00:53:23,076
Speaker 2: it's shocking, but you know, you understand in a way.

784
00:53:23,796 --> 00:53:27,156
Speaker 2: It was a time before anybody had lawyers and thought

785
00:53:27,196 --> 00:53:32,756
Speaker 2: about all these kinds of things. But you know, cultures

786
00:53:32,836 --> 00:53:39,676
Speaker 2: all over the world, African cultures, African American cultures use

787
00:53:39,916 --> 00:53:44,796
Speaker 2: the Hawaiian guitar slide steel guitar. It was invented by

788
00:53:44,876 --> 00:53:50,556
Speaker 2: Joseph Kaikuku on Oahu Island in eighteen eighty seven. Yeah,

789
00:53:50,756 --> 00:53:55,556
Speaker 2: you know, nobody never paid him anything. I mean, and

790
00:53:56,636 --> 00:54:00,596
Speaker 2: to try and draw a border and say, now, okay,

791
00:54:01,116 --> 00:54:05,236
Speaker 2: whatever went before is one thing, but now we're going

792
00:54:05,276 --> 00:54:09,596
Speaker 2: to put up a fence. You can't actually listen to

793
00:54:09,636 --> 00:54:13,636
Speaker 2: this stuff and use that influence in your music because

794
00:54:13,636 --> 00:54:18,756
Speaker 2: that's appropriation. I think it's kind of ridiculous because nothing

795
00:54:18,876 --> 00:54:23,076
Speaker 2: is pure. There is no pure culture. And the story

796
00:54:23,076 --> 00:54:26,676
Speaker 2: of the Roma is some perfect example. I mean, they

797
00:54:26,716 --> 00:54:31,356
Speaker 2: went from South Asia all the way across the Middle East,

798
00:54:31,436 --> 00:54:35,156
Speaker 2: up into the Balkans, up into Europe. They changed European

799
00:54:35,236 --> 00:54:39,276
Speaker 2: music totally, and popular music all over the world wouldn't

800
00:54:39,316 --> 00:54:42,076
Speaker 2: be what it is today if it wasn't for the

801
00:54:42,116 --> 00:54:52,396
Speaker 2: African influence through Argentina, Brazil, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Carolina, Virginia, Texas, Mississippi, Chicago,

802
00:54:52,556 --> 00:54:57,596
Speaker 2: you know whatever. And it always mixed. You know, the

803
00:54:57,956 --> 00:55:02,236
Speaker 2: root of it all started with African slaves being forced

804
00:55:02,796 --> 00:55:06,076
Speaker 2: to play for dances for the French did contra dance

805
00:55:06,436 --> 00:55:11,916
Speaker 2: and quadrilles. And you know, it wasn't just African music

806
00:55:11,956 --> 00:55:15,476
Speaker 2: they were playing. They were playing French music, but they're

807
00:55:15,476 --> 00:55:20,156
Speaker 2: playing it mixed in with their own culture. And it's

808
00:55:20,796 --> 00:55:24,116
Speaker 2: always been a mix. All music is a mix. So

809
00:55:24,836 --> 00:55:28,436
Speaker 2: how you actually begin to parse out where the line

810
00:55:28,476 --> 00:55:31,836
Speaker 2: can be drawn, I don't know. It's beyond me.

811
00:55:33,396 --> 00:55:35,116
Speaker 1: We didn't talk about this, but you spend a lot

812
00:55:35,156 --> 00:55:40,956
Speaker 1: of time with some early blues Grates, Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon,

813
00:55:41,036 --> 00:55:43,196
Speaker 1: Sisters at a Dar and on and on and on.

814
00:55:43,436 --> 00:55:45,156
Speaker 1: You also got to spend a lot of time in England.

815
00:55:46,036 --> 00:55:50,436
Speaker 1: Where do you in this particular era, where do you

816
00:55:50,556 --> 00:55:52,236
Speaker 1: land on the led Zeppelin?

817
00:55:53,036 --> 00:55:55,236
Speaker 2: I mean I was never a big led Zeppelin fan,

818
00:55:55,956 --> 00:55:59,956
Speaker 2: but not because I objected to what they did with

819
00:56:00,756 --> 00:56:03,436
Speaker 2: no anymore than object to Eric Clapton. I mean who

820
00:56:03,676 --> 00:56:08,076
Speaker 2: I object to because of some of his public positions.

821
00:56:09,156 --> 00:56:13,636
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with Eric Clapton playing Crossroads.

822
00:56:14,876 --> 00:56:22,116
Speaker 2: And you know, eventually, when the legal world woke up

823
00:56:22,596 --> 00:56:26,516
Speaker 2: to the values of copyrights and all these things, Robert

824
00:56:26,556 --> 00:56:34,116
Speaker 2: Johnson's sister, I think made you know, his family long

825
00:56:34,156 --> 00:56:39,276
Speaker 2: after he died. Of course, got a pretty decent payday,

826
00:56:39,316 --> 00:56:43,676
Speaker 2: a pretty good share of all those box sets that

827
00:56:43,836 --> 00:56:49,116
Speaker 2: CBS issued of Robert Johnson, and even I think some covers,

828
00:56:49,236 --> 00:56:52,796
Speaker 2: you know, by rock bands. And I know for a

829
00:56:52,876 --> 00:56:57,916
Speaker 2: fact that Muddy Waters and Rosetta and people loved the

830
00:56:57,956 --> 00:57:01,236
Speaker 2: fact that they found a white audience and the fact

831
00:57:01,276 --> 00:57:04,436
Speaker 2: that they found people who ate up their music and

832
00:57:04,556 --> 00:57:08,596
Speaker 2: loved their music. And you know, part of that would

833
00:57:08,636 --> 00:57:11,756
Speaker 2: be the simple fact of buying a ticket to go

834
00:57:11,796 --> 00:57:16,916
Speaker 2: see Rosetta. But you know, Chuck Berry stole from Rosetta.

835
00:57:17,116 --> 00:57:18,676
Speaker 1: That's a good call, you.

836
00:57:18,716 --> 00:57:22,116
Speaker 2: Know, I mean, Chuck Berry is pure Rosetta. Yeah, and

837
00:57:22,556 --> 00:57:28,676
Speaker 2: then everybody else stole from Chuck Berry. And so you

838
00:57:28,716 --> 00:57:30,556
Speaker 2: can't where do you draw the line, but you should

839
00:57:30,636 --> 00:57:32,836
Speaker 2: Chuck not have stolen from Rosetta.

840
00:57:33,356 --> 00:57:36,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, last question and I'll let you go. You talked

841
00:57:36,796 --> 00:57:40,396
Speaker 1: about how the way music from Big Pink really changed everything.

842
00:57:40,716 --> 00:57:42,796
Speaker 1: There were a lot of groups that then changed their

843
00:57:42,836 --> 00:57:45,796
Speaker 1: style of music. Pete Townsend I said, when he heard that,

844
00:57:45,956 --> 00:57:48,956
Speaker 1: you know, it definitely inspired him to write in a

845
00:57:48,956 --> 00:57:51,916
Speaker 1: particular way. Other people as well. But you know, six

846
00:57:51,916 --> 00:57:56,316
Speaker 1: months earlier, so it's a different record, but it's still

847
00:57:56,396 --> 00:57:58,956
Speaker 1: it's a return to Americana in a sense. In the

848
00:57:58,996 --> 00:58:01,796
Speaker 1: middle of psychedelia and all this stuff, Bob Dylan released

849
00:58:01,836 --> 00:58:06,796
Speaker 1: John Leslie Hardy, and why did that not disrupt the

850
00:58:06,876 --> 00:58:10,236
Speaker 1: sort of psychedelic thing and sort of re orient people

851
00:58:10,676 --> 00:58:13,076
Speaker 1: the way music from Big PinkWood six months later.

852
00:58:14,116 --> 00:58:16,156
Speaker 2: I mean, I love that record. I think it's a

853
00:58:16,236 --> 00:58:19,996
Speaker 2: very good record, but it's not in the top five

854
00:58:20,316 --> 00:58:23,436
Speaker 2: Dylan records of all time, so it didn't have the

855
00:58:23,476 --> 00:58:27,476
Speaker 2: same impact at Blonde on Blonde, for example. And also,

856
00:58:27,556 --> 00:58:31,116
Speaker 2: as Dylan himself acknowledged, I think in some interview or

857
00:58:31,196 --> 00:58:34,876
Speaker 2: some something, I think Jimmy Hendrix had something to do

858
00:58:34,996 --> 00:58:39,596
Speaker 2: with it, with the failure of John Wesley Harding record

859
00:58:40,596 --> 00:58:45,036
Speaker 2: to have that impact, because Jimmy's cover of All Along

860
00:58:45,076 --> 00:58:47,596
Speaker 2: the Watchtower blew it out of the water. I mean,

861
00:58:47,636 --> 00:58:49,956
Speaker 2: Dylan acknowledged that, he said, I can't listen to my

862
00:58:49,996 --> 00:58:52,076
Speaker 2: own recording of All on the watch Shower because I'd

863
00:58:52,156 --> 00:58:57,956
Speaker 2: rather listen to Jimmy's and Jimmy's take on that just

864
00:58:58,676 --> 00:59:02,556
Speaker 2: you know, it was so immense and so extraordinary, and

865
00:59:02,596 --> 00:59:04,916
Speaker 2: I think, you know, you can't go back to the culture,

866
00:59:05,196 --> 00:59:07,476
Speaker 2: can't go back to the well that often. You know,

867
00:59:07,596 --> 00:59:13,476
Speaker 2: Dylan had huge impact, like three four times in a

868
00:59:13,556 --> 00:59:18,276
Speaker 2: short space of time, you know, like whiplash. The whole

869
00:59:18,396 --> 00:59:22,236
Speaker 2: Western culture suffered whiplash from Dyla, like, wait a minute,

870
00:59:22,276 --> 00:59:24,796
Speaker 2: he done this, Oh now he's doing this. Oh my god.

871
00:59:25,436 --> 00:59:27,716
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, at a certain point, particularly

872
00:59:27,756 --> 00:59:31,356
Speaker 2: because it's sort of a subdued record, and that and

873
00:59:31,516 --> 00:59:37,196
Speaker 2: Natural Skyline are and Self Portrait are kind of curiosities.

874
00:59:37,436 --> 00:59:40,876
Speaker 2: And I like them all, I mean, but particularly John

875
00:59:40,916 --> 00:59:45,836
Speaker 2: Wesley Harding. It doesn't surprise me that they weren't course change,

876
00:59:46,316 --> 00:59:50,316
Speaker 2: they didn't like spin. The steering mechanism of the ship

877
00:59:51,396 --> 00:59:51,956
Speaker 2: makes sense.

878
00:59:52,396 --> 00:59:54,476
Speaker 1: Man, there's so much more of One Happened another time,

879
00:59:54,756 --> 00:59:55,436
Speaker 1: Great speaking to.

880
00:59:55,476 --> 00:59:56,956
Speaker 2: You, Okay, all of that.

881
00:59:59,916 --> 01:00:02,356
Speaker 1: In episode description, you'll find a link to a seven

882
01:00:02,396 --> 01:00:05,596
Speaker 1: hour playlist Joe Boyd created to accompany his new book

883
01:00:05,716 --> 01:00:08,556
Speaker 1: and the Roots of Rhythm Remain a journey through global music.

884
01:00:09,396 --> 01:00:11,676
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken

885
01:00:11,716 --> 01:00:14,716
Speaker 1: Record Podcast to see all of our video interviews, and

886
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Speaker 1: be sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken

887
01:00:17,076 --> 01:00:20,076
Speaker 1: Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

888
01:00:20,516 --> 01:00:22,796
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with

889
01:00:22,876 --> 01:00:26,116
Speaker 1: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

890
01:00:26,236 --> 01:00:30,076
Speaker 1: is Ben Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

891
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895
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Speaker 1: Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.