WEBVTT - The Future of Attention with Kara Swisher and Kevin Systrom

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<v Speaker 1>Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is Next Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi everybody, welcome. Once again, it's Katie plus one. As

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<v Speaker 1>you guys know, just to switch things up, I'm inviting

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<v Speaker 1>a friend to co host the podcast from time to time,

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<v Speaker 1>and my date today is the one and only Kara Swisher. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>Kara is the ultimate multi hyphenate, as they say these days, writer, podcaster, author,

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<v Speaker 1>rock conteur, stripper. Oh sorry, you're not a stripper overall

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<v Speaker 1>that ass So, Kara, thank you so much. We are

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<v Speaker 1>both under the weather, so I think we need each

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<v Speaker 1>other today. You've got a cold.

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<v Speaker 2>You sound better than I sound terrible, and I had

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<v Speaker 2>to do four podcasts today.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, how did you do it?

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know we were dating. This is so exciting

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<v Speaker 2>for me as a lesbian that we're finally finally admitting

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<v Speaker 2>our deepen abiding affection and really lust for each other.

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<v Speaker 2>It's fantastic.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I am very happy to have you here because, seriously,

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<v Speaker 1>not to gush, you're one of my favorite people. You're

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<v Speaker 1>one of the smartest people I know, thinks, an incredible reporter.

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<v Speaker 1>I think everyone in the business respects you so much. Kara,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're really fearless, which is what I love about you.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, I thought you'd be the perfect person

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<v Speaker 1>to write Shotgun with me, although I can't imagine you're

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<v Speaker 1>willing to give up the driver's seat. But we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to be chatting with Kevin Sistrom, who you know well.

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<v Speaker 1>But before I just want to give our listeners a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about us, Kara. How did we meet? I

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<v Speaker 1>was trying to remember when I first met you.

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<v Speaker 2>When I broke the story about you going to Yahoo?

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<v Speaker 1>I think, oh, is that when? Yes? But I was

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<v Speaker 1>reading your stuff all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>We sense because you were thinking about going to Yahoo,

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<v Speaker 2>you had to, right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>But so that was I guess in around twenty twelve.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And who were you writing for back then?

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<v Speaker 2>My own thing, Recode? Oh, that's right, Recode. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And you were breaking stories right and left, including the

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<v Speaker 1>one about me.

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<v Speaker 2>I was and I thought it was intriguing. I thought

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<v Speaker 2>it was super intriguing that someone like you, you'd been

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<v Speaker 2>at all the broadcast networks. It was a big moment

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<v Speaker 2>for people to make that crossover. You were one of

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<v Speaker 2>the few and the early ones. Now it didn't work

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<v Speaker 2>out quite the way you wanted to, but it still

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<v Speaker 2>was pretty brave to do something like that and to

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<v Speaker 2>try something out, and you know, you kind of got

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<v Speaker 2>snowed by Merissa Mayer.

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<v Speaker 1>I did. And I think in retrospect, not only was

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<v Speaker 1>it a bad fit because I don't think her goals

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<v Speaker 1>and my goals aligned right in terms of turning Yahoo

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<v Speaker 1>into a really major digital news network, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I also think I might have been a bit too early.

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<v Speaker 2>Kara, Yeah, because you're not unlike what you're doing now

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<v Speaker 2>with podcasting. You know, you were kind of doing That's

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<v Speaker 2>what you were kind of doing, but you did it

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<v Speaker 2>in more traditional sense, which was interviews and things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>What was your title? It was so big? It was

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<v Speaker 2>like global news anchor.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, my husband made fun of me and said, why

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<v Speaker 1>don't they call you intergalactic news anchor? I know it

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<v Speaker 1>was a blood news anchor. It was a little a

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<v Speaker 1>little much.

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<v Speaker 2>But it was early, and it was really important for

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<v Speaker 2>people who who didn't understand what was happening in news

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<v Speaker 2>on the internet to for have someone like you to

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<v Speaker 2>go over and very few people did that. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to think. I think it was you and

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<v Speaker 2>nobody else. Yeah, there were a couple, you know, but

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<v Speaker 2>mostly what happened is later people that were on networks

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<v Speaker 2>did podcasts or they did you know, it's different things,

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<v Speaker 2>but podcasts and newsletters, which was an impairy thing, or

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<v Speaker 2>else ape here has an influencer on TikTok or Instagram

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that, and so you were early to

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<v Speaker 2>all those things. As I recall, you were very early

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<v Speaker 2>to Instagram, you were on Twitter early. Yeah, you were

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<v Speaker 2>very embracing of the digital part. You didn't make fun

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<v Speaker 2>of it the way most media people did.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 1>I think I saw early on. Honestly, I think part

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<v Speaker 1>from my own experience at CBS. You know, there was

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<v Speaker 1>the decline of linear television. It was going steadily declining

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<v Speaker 1>year over year, and I realized that, you know, in

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and eight. It was two thousand and eight

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<v Speaker 1>when the iPhone came out. I mean that totally changed

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<v Speaker 1>the game. And care I remember being at CBS and

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<v Speaker 1>having somebody say to me, I forget who he was.

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<v Speaker 1>He goes, the future is mobile, But I remember thinking,

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<v Speaker 1>what is he talking about? And he was so spot on,

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<v Speaker 1>but whatever was going to happen, I knew something was changing.

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<v Speaker 1>And meanwhile, you have been on the forefront of everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Well mobile, you know Walt and I called Mobile Web

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<v Speaker 2>two point zero. I think we were very when we

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<v Speaker 2>saw the iPhone, and you know, Jobs had denied he

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<v Speaker 2>was making it to us the year before he introduced it. No,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not working on a phone but an interview, but

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<v Speaker 2>he was. The minute that happened, the iPhone changed everything,

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<v Speaker 2>including you know, for Kevin System, you wouldn't have had Instagram,

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<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't have had Uber, you wouldn't have had a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of Airbnb. There's so much you wouldn't have without

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<v Speaker 2>the apogonomy. And of course that's when companies likeness came

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<v Speaker 2>into being, really because of the iPhone.

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<v Speaker 1>It's amazing how much things have changed when you think

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<v Speaker 1>about when we got into journalism and the things that

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<v Speaker 1>have tanked as a result of the Internet and things

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<v Speaker 1>that have exploded. Well, you've got a lot going on

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<v Speaker 1>in your life. I'm excited to have you back on

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast when your new book comes out in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four. It's called burn Book, Right, you'll like it.

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<v Speaker 2>Kaaney, you're in it.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh God, I hope you're nice to meet Kara.

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<v Speaker 2>I am. It's a low bar though it's a low

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<v Speaker 2>bar for people in the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I know you're not a fan of a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people in Silicon Valley, but you are a fan

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<v Speaker 1>of our guest, Kevin Sistrom.

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<v Speaker 2>I am very much.

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<v Speaker 1>So well, let's let him in so you can talk

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<v Speaker 1>about him and he can his ears can actually burn

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<v Speaker 1>in person.

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<v Speaker 3>Kevin, Hi, how are you guys? How are you wonderful?

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<v Speaker 1>What a coincidence, Kevin? We were just talking about you,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was saying to Kara there are a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people in Silicon Valley she's not crazy about, but

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<v Speaker 1>one of the people she really really likes Kevin is you.

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<v Speaker 1>You're in rare company. Now, what is it about Kevin,

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<v Speaker 1>Kara that you like?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I really do admire you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people I had a lot of wrangling with,

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<v Speaker 2>like Steve Jobs, who I actually did like too. I

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<v Speaker 2>like people who love products. I love people who have

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<v Speaker 2>a design sense, have a real tear about products and

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<v Speaker 2>designing them correctly. I like someone who's thoughtful and is

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<v Speaker 2>willing to change their minds. You know, Kevin was always

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<v Speaker 2>open to criticism in a way that didn't It wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>hurt all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>And Kevin I mean, it seems like you have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of humility, which is a quality that's probably hard

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<v Speaker 1>to come by in Silicon Valley. How have you been

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<v Speaker 1>able to maintain some openness, some humility as you've approached

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<v Speaker 1>your work.

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<v Speaker 3>I was having dinner with the Promise site and we

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<v Speaker 3>were talking about Artifact and my current project and how

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<v Speaker 3>it's going and the future of it, and I said,

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<v Speaker 3>I think the difference between the people that succeed in

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<v Speaker 3>the long run and the people that continue to fail

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<v Speaker 3>are the people that do their best to recognize their

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<v Speaker 3>blind spots and that everyone has them. And the problem is,

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<v Speaker 3>at least in Silicon Valley, that these companies grow to

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<v Speaker 3>be so large that if you stay in charge, you

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<v Speaker 3>can ignore your blind spots because you've got your moat,

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<v Speaker 3>you've got your defense, and you can ignore all of

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<v Speaker 3>the things you don't know about yourself because you're successful,

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<v Speaker 3>and you continue to be successful, and you have all

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<v Speaker 3>this money. The problem is, let's imagine you sell your company.

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<v Speaker 3>You're no longer in charge of your company, and you

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<v Speaker 3>have to go face the real world. You have to

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<v Speaker 3>get in touch with your failings and your weaknesses pretty quickly,

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<v Speaker 3>otherwise you get chewed up and spit out the other side.

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<v Speaker 3>That's what every entrepreneur has to do at some point

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<v Speaker 3>in their life. The problem is that people that cares

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<v Speaker 3>talking about, I believe, are the people who get to

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<v Speaker 3>the point where they don't have to really think about

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<v Speaker 3>those things because they're just riding the wave that they

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<v Speaker 3>caused maybe ten or twenty years ago. Have that wave anymore?

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<v Speaker 3>You have to create a new wave. And in order

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<v Speaker 3>to create that wave, I think you need to understand

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<v Speaker 3>where you're good, where you're not good, and sometimes that

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<v Speaker 3>can be a painful process.

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<v Speaker 2>Well you know, Kevin, it's also a question of maturity, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I sort of link I split people between adults and toddlers. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what else to say, is adult toddlers

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<v Speaker 2>who get enabled and coddled. And you know this from

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<v Speaker 2>having money. You don't know who's your friend. You have

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<v Speaker 2>people in violent agreement with you almost all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and the ability to take feedback is very hard when

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<v Speaker 2>everybody is enabling you not to not to do so,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it makes you a lesser executive in

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<v Speaker 2>my opinion. And you don't hear let me tell you

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<v Speaker 2>who you don't hear from about that who doesn't complain

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<v Speaker 2>when you have a good about their product is the

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<v Speaker 2>people from Apple. You don't hear Tim Cook belly aching

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<v Speaker 2>about anything because he's an adult, and so I think,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't think you have to be old to

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<v Speaker 2>be an adult. I think you were an adult from

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<v Speaker 2>very early on. I mean that was my feeling at

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<v Speaker 2>the time.

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk about early on, Kevin, because I know

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<v Speaker 1>we have so much to cover, But I do want

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<v Speaker 1>to start with Instagram, just because I'm addicted to it

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<v Speaker 1>and I've been going down endless rabbit holes, much to

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<v Speaker 1>my estegrint. I mean constantly. It's really hard. It is addictive.

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<v Speaker 1>But where did the idea from Instagram come from?

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<v Speaker 3>It came from We were working on a different app,

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<v Speaker 3>not Instagram, called Bourbon, and it was spelled b u

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<v Speaker 3>RBN and the name doesn't matter. It was funny, but

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<v Speaker 3>it was a check in app. It led you share

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<v Speaker 3>your location, so you could say I'm at a restaurant,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm at a bar, and all your friends would see

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<v Speaker 3>where you were. And it was kind of riding this

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<v Speaker 3>wave of check an app.

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<v Speaker 2>Poor Square was the popular yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Or Square Goala Hot Potato there were a bunch of them.

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<v Speaker 2>Was looped in.

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<v Speaker 3>There was looped yep, yep. Here's the thing people forget

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<v Speaker 3>that maybe they don't forget, but it's easy to forget that.

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<v Speaker 3>We see these waves of like everyone's doing generative AI

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<v Speaker 3>all at once, everyone's doing Web three. My version of

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<v Speaker 3>that when I started was check and apps. Everyone was

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<v Speaker 3>doing check and apps. And we started this check and app.

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<v Speaker 3>And the one feature that we had that no other

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<v Speaker 3>check and app had was the ability to add photos.

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<v Speaker 3>And you can attach a photo to your check in,

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<v Speaker 3>so you could say, I'm at the beach, here's me

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<v Speaker 3>at the beach. And no one really liked our check

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<v Speaker 3>and app. No one really wanted to use it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>we had a small group of people playing with it,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, we took a step back, Mike Kreeger

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<v Speaker 3>and I and Mike cofounder, we took a step back

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<v Speaker 3>and we said, why and what is it about the

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<v Speaker 3>thing we've built that people do love? So we crossed

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<v Speaker 3>everything out. We had a whiteboard and we wrote everything

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<v Speaker 3>that people used on the app up on the whiteboard

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<v Speaker 3>and crossed everything off, and we ended up basically with

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<v Speaker 3>one thing circled, which was photos. We said, okay, what

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<v Speaker 3>if we threw away literally everything about this app and

0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.000
<v Speaker 3>repositioned it around photos. So we did that. But that's

0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.120
<v Speaker 3>not the end of the story. A very quick addition

0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.640
<v Speaker 3>to the story is we did that pivot. We built

0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.319
<v Speaker 3>this app, we didn't call it Instagram yet, and I

0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:04.720
<v Speaker 3>was I decided I needed a week off because I

0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.720
<v Speaker 3>was exhausted. I was like, I don't think this pivot's

0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:09.880
<v Speaker 3>going to work. So I'm going to go to Mexico

0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.160
<v Speaker 3>for a week to a little little seaside town with

0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.880
<v Speaker 3>who would become my wife, who was my girlfriend at

0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.319
<v Speaker 3>the time, Nicole. And we we're walking along the beach

0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.160
<v Speaker 3>and I said, do you think you'll use this new

0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.920
<v Speaker 3>version of this app called Bourbon that's photos only? And

0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.640
<v Speaker 3>she said, no, I don't think I will because I

0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:27.920
<v Speaker 3>don't like sharing my photos. My photos aren't good enough.

0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:30.920
<v Speaker 3>I said, why aren't your photos good enough? And she said, well,

0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.520
<v Speaker 3>because all your friends take these amazing, beautiful filtered photos.

0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.839
<v Speaker 3>And I was like, yeah, that's because they use filter apps.

0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:38.880
<v Speaker 3>And she's like, well, you should probably add filters to

0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.000
<v Speaker 3>the app. I said, that's a brilliant idea. So we

0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:43.840
<v Speaker 3>finished that walk on the beach I went back to

0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.720
<v Speaker 3>the little hotel room we were staying in and I

0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:48.720
<v Speaker 3>researched how to make the first filter. And if you

0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.040
<v Speaker 3>look way back on my profile, the first photo on

0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.280
<v Speaker 3>my profile, the first photo ever on Instagram, is a

0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.400
<v Speaker 3>square photo of a very small dog in Mexico when

0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 3>we went out to lunch after I built the first

0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.840
<v Speaker 3>filter on Instagram because of that walk on the beach. Wow,

0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.040
<v Speaker 3>I'm proud to say she is now my wife and

0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:05.880
<v Speaker 3>I love her dearly.

0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.240
<v Speaker 2>Well did you pay her? Did you pay her for it?

0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:10.959
<v Speaker 1>I was gonna say, but I think I don't think

0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:12.559
<v Speaker 1>she has a good prenup.

0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.640
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think we're both very, very happy with the situation.

0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:18.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm very happy to be married to her, and we

0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.240
<v Speaker 3>just we have this great life now. So it's awesome.

0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:22.960
<v Speaker 3>But how do we knock down on that walk?

0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.640
<v Speaker 1>I remember I was at Yahoo, you guys when when

0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.320
<v Speaker 1>Instagram came out, and somebody on my team says, you

0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.280
<v Speaker 1>need to be on Instagram. You know, it's this great

0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.680
<v Speaker 1>new thing, and I was like what, But I was

0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.920
<v Speaker 1>I kind of got into it pretty quickly, and it

0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.840
<v Speaker 1>just grew so fast, Kevin, to the point you sold

0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 1>it to Mark Zuckerberg for one billion dollars, which is

0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:46.720
<v Speaker 1>a nice chunk of change.

0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Actually, Katie, it was cheap, you know, are really Oh yeah, really,

0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.319
<v Speaker 2>Zuckerberg got the bargain of a century getting that fantastic.

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.080
<v Speaker 1>Oh, you're right, I've read that. How much do you

0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.320
<v Speaker 1>think you could have sold it for in retrospect, Kevin?

0:12:58.400 --> 0:12:59.520
<v Speaker 1>Or do you hate that question?

0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 3>I don't hate the question because I'm so used to

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:03.720
<v Speaker 3>getting it now. I think I hated it the first

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 3>couple of times, but now now I feel like I've

0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.959
<v Speaker 3>come to terms with my answer, which is, at the time,

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:10.760
<v Speaker 3>do you know how many people, Katie, we had at

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.160
<v Speaker 3>the company when we sold it for a billion dollars?

0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:14.800
<v Speaker 2>Seven?

0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:15.679
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Seven? Maybe more?

0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 3>It was nine? I think maybe nine or ten. It's okay.

0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.680
<v Speaker 3>You imagine you have a group of kids in a

0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.640
<v Speaker 3>room working on a photo app and someone comes along

0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.320
<v Speaker 3>and says, how about a billion? You know, I don't

0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.360
<v Speaker 3>know many people that would turn that deal down?

0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:34.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you.

0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.600
<v Speaker 3>Know, Listen could have should have would a had we

0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.160
<v Speaker 3>stayed the course been independent. I don't know. I mean,

0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.920
<v Speaker 3>how many examples of people, maybe I know more of

0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.760
<v Speaker 3>them personally have turned down acquisition offers Facebook for one

0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.199
<v Speaker 3>hundred billion dollars. Well, you know, Facebook's the easy one.

0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 3>That's the one we all talked about. Let's talk about

0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 3>the one is that didn't work out. Yeah, you're right,

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.280
<v Speaker 3>hundred that turned down one two hundred million dollar offers

0:13:58.320 --> 0:13:59.720
<v Speaker 3>saying you know what, we're going to stick the course.

0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 3>Now you literally never heard of these companies.

0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.400
<v Speaker 2>I think my point, Kevin, was that you were making

0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.560
<v Speaker 2>something that was special and different. Having seen everything, I

0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 2>think while I think they did help you grow quickly,

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I suspect you could have done it by yourselves, because

0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.920
<v Speaker 2>your product was quite magical in a way that not

0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.679
<v Speaker 2>a lot of them are. How much do you imagine

0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.080
<v Speaker 2>they helped you grow? I don't think I've ever asked

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 2>you that. How much do you think they being within

0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.680
<v Speaker 2>the juggernaut of Facebook, which was at that moment still

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.040
<v Speaker 2>is really did you think they really did help you?

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:31.840
<v Speaker 2>I assume you did.

0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.080
<v Speaker 3>I think they helped us in a bunch of ways,

0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.920
<v Speaker 3>and we helped them back in a bunch of ways.

0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.600
<v Speaker 3>And there's a little bit of this dynamic of we

0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 3>and them, which I find so strange. By the way, Yeah,

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.320
<v Speaker 3>because you know, like sure, we had a little building

0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.280
<v Speaker 3>on campus and had a little Instagram logo on the outside,

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 3>but we were all part of the same company. And

0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm bringing this up not to point out the way

0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 3>you're talking about us, but rather the way we talked

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.760
<v Speaker 3>about ourselves internally. When I was there, it was such

0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.760
<v Speaker 3>an US versus then dynamic, and it was very strange

0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.240
<v Speaker 3>in my head always because I was like, here, we

0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.600
<v Speaker 3>are now producing billions of dollars, years in billions of dollars,

0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.080
<v Speaker 3>but it's as if we're like two siblings fighting over

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.040
<v Speaker 3>who gets the remote and we're not.

0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Well. It sounded like that to me, though, Kevin, because

0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.760
<v Speaker 1>everything I read it sounds like, and correct me if

0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm wrong that Mark Zuckerberg was kind of threatened by

0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.080
<v Speaker 1>you and your success and the fact that a lot

0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 1>of resources were going to Instagram, and I don't know,

0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.280
<v Speaker 1>it sounds like his ego got in the way. Is

0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:38.040
<v Speaker 1>that accurate.

0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.840
<v Speaker 3>I don't know that I can speak on his bath

0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 3>for that. You'd have to ask him directly.

0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, is that how you felt.

0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.600
<v Speaker 3>The way that I felt was that nothing made sense

0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:54.520
<v Speaker 3>logically about the way we were running the two companies. Logically.

0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.000
<v Speaker 3>It was amazing that we had lightning in a bottle,

0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 3>and we were producing, you know, a product that was

0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.440
<v Speaker 3>growing all over the world and you know, double digit

0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.960
<v Speaker 3>growth rates per month and then on top of that,

0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:12.160
<v Speaker 3>producing billions of dollars. Yet for summer reason, internally, the

0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.840
<v Speaker 3>dynamic was that we were disappointed. Yeah, and that was

0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.440
<v Speaker 3>very strange. And like, basically the reason I left, by

0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 3>the way, and I've said this to friends, and I'm

0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 3>not sure I've ever said it to anyone else, but

0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.560
<v Speaker 3>like the reason I left is because the more I

0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.520
<v Speaker 3>felt that I put in and the more that we won,

0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.600
<v Speaker 3>the harder my job got. The more difficult the more

0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.720
<v Speaker 3>and not that like not that jobs don't get harder

0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.760
<v Speaker 3>as things go on, But it wasn't like that's that

0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 3>success was a good thing. It was almost as if

0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 3>that success was a bad thing because we had this product,

0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.560
<v Speaker 3>Facebook Blue, which was going through some tough times. And

0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 3>I get that I probably, you know, could have been

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 3>a better you know, I don't know, sibling or whatever

0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 3>in terms of understanding how challenging that must be for

0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 3>those people and for those teams and for the brand.

0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.440
<v Speaker 3>And at the same time, I found it so strange

0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.080
<v Speaker 3>that we didn't look at our situation as holy crap.

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.159
<v Speaker 3>We are the luckiest people on earth and maybe the

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.560
<v Speaker 3>luckiest company on Earth. That feels like a real tragedy

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:13.840
<v Speaker 3>in retrospect.

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I read that you were on I Guess

0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.919
<v Speaker 1>doing some interviews and Mark and Cheryl said basically you

0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.159
<v Speaker 1>couldn't do interviews without getting permissioned from them. So it

0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.400
<v Speaker 1>does sound like a bit of a power struggle. What's

0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:27.440
<v Speaker 1>your take on that, Kiara.

0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.119
<v Speaker 2>I think they were jealous of I know they were

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.879
<v Speaker 2>jealous of Kevin largely because of creativity. And the knock

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.520
<v Speaker 2>on them was that they stole ideas, that they were shoplifters,

0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.760
<v Speaker 2>essentially of other people's theories and ideas. Now, as it

0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.320
<v Speaker 2>turned out, Instagram became an enormous engine for Facebook. As

0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:50.719
<v Speaker 2>Facebook started to wane in usage, in excitement in young people,

0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.240
<v Speaker 2>being especially young people, it was critical. To me. There's

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:59.119
<v Speaker 2>certain purchases in technology that are critical that really changed them.

0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.040
<v Speaker 2>I think Google buying you Tube was one of them.

0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.359
<v Speaker 2>And I think there are certain purchases where it's a

0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.720
<v Speaker 2>real turning point. I think it wasn't a critical critical thing,

0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.000
<v Speaker 2>and it's sort of as rich and famous as you get,

0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.199
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter if it wasn't you who did. And

0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.240
<v Speaker 2>I think Bill Gates suffered from this, you know, probably

0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:20.240
<v Speaker 2>more towards Steve Jobs. Is like Bill Gates before he

0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 2>did all the philanthropy when he if he had died

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:24.879
<v Speaker 2>then it would have been the world's richest man died today.

0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.720
<v Speaker 2>And if Steve Jobs done, which he later did, the

0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.199
<v Speaker 2>world's greatest tech visionary died today. And I think Kevin

0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.160
<v Speaker 2>was more in the visionary part of that. And Mark,

0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's like a Henry Ford character. And so

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.040
<v Speaker 2>that's what makes it hard. And again let me I'd

0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:41.879
<v Speaker 2>love to ask you getting back to the product, and

0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:43.560
<v Speaker 2>that's really what you have to get to is the

0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.080
<v Speaker 2>product itself and the iterations you make around it, including

0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.240
<v Speaker 2>as I've talked with Kevin about doing stories that was

0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:54.880
<v Speaker 2>a snapchat thing that then Instagram did. Now Kevin's quite

0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.080
<v Speaker 2>smartly and very cleverly. Is said to me, well, they

0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.399
<v Speaker 2>made a radio in a car, and we just made

0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:02.600
<v Speaker 2>a better radio in a car. And I kind of

0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:04.480
<v Speaker 2>accept that now. I accept that now, Kevin.

0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:06.920
<v Speaker 3>It's funny, by the way, Kara for a second that

0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.040
<v Speaker 3>you know you'll say that Facebook or shoplifters, but like

0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:15.440
<v Speaker 3>to be clear, story was a very direct. You know,

0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.199
<v Speaker 3>it wasn't a replica because I think we added some

0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.000
<v Speaker 3>really neat features to it.

0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:20.520
<v Speaker 2>You did.

0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:24.440
<v Speaker 3>But I do believe that, like you know, as much

0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:28.600
<v Speaker 3>as Facebook might have invented the Facebook news feed. Yes,

0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.600
<v Speaker 3>now you can't see a social product without a news feed,

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.119
<v Speaker 3>but that wasn't a given back then.

0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:33.920
<v Speaker 2>That's true.

0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:39.080
<v Speaker 3>So these things are not property the founder. Yeah, it's

0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.720
<v Speaker 3>about who actecutes best on them. And now we're seeing

0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.000
<v Speaker 3>that play out with the Twitter feed effectively across multiple products.

0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, everyone's doing a version of Twitter, including you and

0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.679
<v Speaker 2>your new you know, a version of But the idea

0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.960
<v Speaker 2>of it is a feed, isn't It really is a

0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:54.679
<v Speaker 2>feed when you think about it. But one of the

0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:56.560
<v Speaker 2>things that I think is important to remember is that

0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 2>not just from a creative point of view, it gave

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Facebook and enormous amount of credibility to own a product

0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:07.280
<v Speaker 2>like this, it also was financially enormous, like enormous, and

0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:09.960
<v Speaker 2>a safer place than what was going on at Facebook.

0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.480
<v Speaker 2>I think that was really important, a pleasant place. Facebook

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.880
<v Speaker 2>had started to get different right as they got criticized.

0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.280
<v Speaker 2>But Instagram, even though there are lots of problems on

0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Instagram around lots of problems. You know, it still was

0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.560
<v Speaker 2>a place of product of enjoyment. I guess. I don't

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:27.360
<v Speaker 2>know else to put it, but a product of enjoyment

0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.200
<v Speaker 2>more than anything else and delight. And I think that's

0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.520
<v Speaker 2>hard to do and sustain. Twitter has never been enjoyable.

0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.520
<v Speaker 2>It's been funny, it's been vexing, it's been addictive, But

0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.199
<v Speaker 2>enjoying I don't think so. I don't, you know, I

0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.520
<v Speaker 2>guess in a broader sense, and that's very hard to do.

0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.680
<v Speaker 1>After this break, we dive into how tech companies can

0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:53.159
<v Speaker 1>build products that select for something other than outrage. Kevin

0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:55.760
<v Speaker 1>has some great ideas on how to do just that.

0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.400
<v Speaker 1>I want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown

0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.680
<v Speaker 1>of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness

0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.840
<v Speaker 1>and pop culture. Sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake

0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:16.160
<v Speaker 1>Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. And we're

0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:19.400
<v Speaker 1>back with our guest, Kevin Sistrom and my co pilot

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Kara Swisher. I wanted to ask you about the negative

0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:27.320
<v Speaker 1>side of Instagram, Kevin. Obviously, there are a lot of

0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:34.840
<v Speaker 1>negative impacts on girls, on mental health. On the comparison

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:39.480
<v Speaker 1>that it encourages, and is that just part of the deal.

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:44.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, can anything be done about the psychosocial impact

0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.439
<v Speaker 1>of some of these platforms, and specifically Instagram, and is

0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:52.879
<v Speaker 1>as you saw it having this impact. I'm curious what

0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:54.000
<v Speaker 1>went through your mind.

0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:58.240
<v Speaker 3>I think it all comes down to leadership, the idea

0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:03.400
<v Speaker 3>that you have a school and that tool take nuclear

0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:08.840
<v Speaker 3>energy can be used for amazing things. It can produce clean,

0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:14.000
<v Speaker 3>sustainable energy, but also, if used not in the right way,

0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:23.200
<v Speaker 3>can create massive destruction. Tools themselves rarely have a very

0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:28.280
<v Speaker 3>clear positive or negative effect. It's when you put that

0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:32.120
<v Speaker 3>tool in someone's hand and that person decides to start

0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 3>making rules around it, in judgments about what's allowed what's

0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:39.840
<v Speaker 3>not allowed, the way they decide to moderate things, their

0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.840
<v Speaker 3>community guidelines, the tone they set as a leader with

0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:47.120
<v Speaker 3>their own posts. If we're talking social media, and as

0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:52.159
<v Speaker 3>a leader at Instagram, early on, I decided that we

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.560
<v Speaker 3>should focus on being the nicest place on the Internet.

0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:58.200
<v Speaker 3>And nice is like a really lame word, but let's

0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:02.399
<v Speaker 3>move past that to maybe dness. So, for instance, we

0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.879
<v Speaker 3>were one of the first, if not the first, major

0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.760
<v Speaker 3>social network to use machine learning to detect bullying and

0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.719
<v Speaker 3>intervene in bullying situations. Most people were worried about spam

0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.119
<v Speaker 3>at this point. So if you went to any other network,

0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:19.640
<v Speaker 3>they'd had spam filters and spand detectors, and we were

0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.520
<v Speaker 3>focused on interactions that didn't qualify as spam, but were

0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.720
<v Speaker 3>human to human interactions that were negative, and we would

0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.760
<v Speaker 3>intervene and try to stop those things. Those are the

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 3>types of decisions that I think made Instagram such a

0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:34.960
<v Speaker 3>great place early on, because we didn't We used to

0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:38.359
<v Speaker 3>have caro. We used to have this phrase internally called

0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:42.119
<v Speaker 3>prune the trolls. Yeah, and we used to just get

0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:44.800
<v Speaker 3>rid of We used to block accounts of people who

0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:49.679
<v Speaker 3>were causing issues very very early on, and that was

0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 3>getting rid of the negative. But then we would also

0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.280
<v Speaker 3>host these community meetups called instamets, and we would bring

0:23:55.359 --> 0:24:00.639
<v Speaker 3>together people on the platform in person, in a to

0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:02.680
<v Speaker 3>meet each other, to put a face to a name,

0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:05.600
<v Speaker 3>and those types of interactions very early on, I think

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:09.640
<v Speaker 3>set an amazing tone for the community that lasted well

0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:13.479
<v Speaker 3>beyond my tenure. But as you get bigger and bigger

0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:16.960
<v Speaker 3>and you get into the billions, the law of large

0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:20.480
<v Speaker 3>numbers says that you get just about everyone on the platform,

0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.439
<v Speaker 3>every type of person, so it becomes much harder to

0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:27.919
<v Speaker 3>make these decisions. So maybe in one country something is

0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:30.680
<v Speaker 3>well accepted, will in another country it's not accepted. You

0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.600
<v Speaker 3>have to make these really hard choices about what's allowed

0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:36.159
<v Speaker 3>and what's not allowed, and you start to make people

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:39.240
<v Speaker 3>angry with these choices. But it all comes down to leadership.

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:41.720
<v Speaker 3>It all comes down to those fundamental decisions you make

0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:44.480
<v Speaker 3>as a human holding that tool in your hand, with

0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:45.600
<v Speaker 3>the control which.

0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:47.159
<v Speaker 2>I think is lost for a lot of people. A

0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:49.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of tech people try to abrogate. I don't want

0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:51.359
<v Speaker 2>to have anything to do even as they built it,

0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:54.000
<v Speaker 2>like I didn't mean to build this city.

0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:56.560
<v Speaker 1>Right, Well we're a platform, we're not a publisher, right.

0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but they built it in the first place, and

0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:00.359
<v Speaker 2>they think one of the things is important Keavn can

0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:02.240
<v Speaker 2>talk to this about a new thing is you have

0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:04.119
<v Speaker 2>to have a set of rules. And it's okay. You

0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 2>know this whole canard that it's a public square. It's

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:09.680
<v Speaker 2>not a public anything. It's a private money making company.

0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:11.639
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know, Kevin. I think that I

0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:14.960
<v Speaker 2>think these are these are companies and you know company

0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:16.840
<v Speaker 2>as it's rules and so should this.

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Are there any things that you see Kevin when you

0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.840
<v Speaker 1>go on Instagram today that you wish wasn't happening, or

0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:26.399
<v Speaker 1>changes you think, Oh, I'm so pissed there letting this happen,

0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:28.840
<v Speaker 1>or if I were there, I would do X, Y

0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:29.200
<v Speaker 1>or Z.

0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:31.639
<v Speaker 3>At the end of the day, the question is how

0:25:31.680 --> 0:25:34.440
<v Speaker 3>you incentivize people and who's in control? And I think

0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:36.399
<v Speaker 3>what we've seen so you asked, you know, what do

0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:38.919
<v Speaker 3>I wish was different? Yeah, I'm not sure it's an

0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:43.159
<v Speaker 3>Instagram problem specifically, but you know, products like reels and

0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:47.359
<v Speaker 3>product like like YouTube shorts or even TikTok, they're so

0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:52.320
<v Speaker 3>optimized on engagement that they will show you things that

0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:55.200
<v Speaker 3>you are not actually interested in, but they will make

0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:58.479
<v Speaker 3>you stare at them forever, and then you wake up

0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:00.159
<v Speaker 3>one day and you look around you go, god, I

0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:02.400
<v Speaker 3>just spend an hour. Was that like a useful hour

0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:03.040
<v Speaker 3>of my life?

0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:05.840
<v Speaker 3>And part of why I started Artifact was the belief

0:26:05.880 --> 0:26:09.040
<v Speaker 3>that you could use some of the same technology to personalize,

0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.520
<v Speaker 3>but do it in a way that actually showed people

0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:16.359
<v Speaker 3>things that made their life more informed, maybe a little

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:16.840
<v Speaker 3>bit better.

0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:18.679
<v Speaker 2>Kevin's talking a little bit. If you want to make

0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:21.480
<v Speaker 2>an analogy to sugar, right, isn't this doughnut delicious, what

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:23.479
<v Speaker 2>a delicious done? And you may even not want it.

0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:26.680
<v Speaker 2>You may want something healthy, or you might want something different,

0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:28.200
<v Speaker 2>but it's hard to resist.

0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:29.719
<v Speaker 1>But it's sitting in front of you.

0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:32.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's how you architect things. And Kevin's a designer.

0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:35.920
<v Speaker 2>If you architect for virality and speed, you're going to

0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:38.440
<v Speaker 2>get a different thing. And if you architect for context

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:43.080
<v Speaker 2>and content, like really good what you're looking for right, absolutely,

0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:45.840
<v Speaker 2>And so it's a question of what architecture you put

0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:48.640
<v Speaker 2>into place and so many of these things, or else

0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:51.520
<v Speaker 2>you don't put anything into place. And people generally trend

0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:54.280
<v Speaker 2>towards shitty stuff. Look at the shitty stuff, look at

0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:56.240
<v Speaker 2>the accent. And that's what's going on on Twitter right now.

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.720
<v Speaker 2>He's just removed everything, and so people who are bad

0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:03.119
<v Speaker 2>can come in and really attract you in a way

0:27:03.240 --> 0:27:05.560
<v Speaker 2>that is just the human brain. It's it crawls down

0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:07.280
<v Speaker 2>your cerebral cortex.

0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:11.640
<v Speaker 3>Really, Kara, I have an example. Sure, I love coffee, okay,

0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:14.679
<v Speaker 3>and I go to Starbucks and by the way, like

0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:18.480
<v Speaker 3>you know people who I claim on a coffee er,

0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:20.119
<v Speaker 3>and then I tell people I go to Starbucks and

0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:22.520
<v Speaker 3>they're like wait what, But like I do.

0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:26.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm surprised. I'm surprised you went to Starbucks. I'm surprised.

0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:29.440
<v Speaker 3>Listen, I'm a busy guy with like two kids. Sometimes

0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:31.240
<v Speaker 3>you need a great, great quick cos.

0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:33.439
<v Speaker 2>He's kind of a coffee snob. You are a coffee

0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>you were.

0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:36.280
<v Speaker 3>Here's the thing. I've been going to Starbucks for god

0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:41.680
<v Speaker 3>knows how many years, and like, Starbucks is a milkshake company. Guys,

0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:44.720
<v Speaker 3>it's a milkshake company. Go into any Starbucks and just

0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:48.439
<v Speaker 3>sit there and watch people ordering. They're not ordering dripped coffees,

0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:52.080
<v Speaker 3>maybe once in a while a latte. People walk out

0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:55.520
<v Speaker 3>of there with huge milkshakes with whipped cream on top.

0:27:55.920 --> 0:27:59.960
<v Speaker 3>And yes, there's caffeine inside, but think about what machine produced,

0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:05.840
<v Speaker 3>what set of incentives produced that milkshake shop. It's like, well, okay,

0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:07.760
<v Speaker 3>if people like our coffee, but like, how can we

0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:11.119
<v Speaker 3>have them have coffee during the day, not the morning. Well,

0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:14.000
<v Speaker 3>let's blend up some ice with it, Let's add some sugar.

0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:16.960
<v Speaker 3>What do people like, Oh, okay, we'll do summer drinks.

0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:19.160
<v Speaker 3>And before you know it, like one of the most

0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:24.280
<v Speaker 3>original coffee companies in the world now like primarily sells milkshakes, right,

0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:26.760
<v Speaker 3>And if you think about it in terms of social media,

0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:29.320
<v Speaker 3>that's exactly what happens. You start off about being this

0:28:29.400 --> 0:28:32.720
<v Speaker 3>time square and ideas and everything, and then you say, oh, well,

0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:34.679
<v Speaker 3>actually what gets people to stay around and what you

0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:38.160
<v Speaker 3>end up with is like fight videos and car crashes

0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:40.840
<v Speaker 3>and silly animal dances like.

0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:43.840
<v Speaker 2>And dunking and not new. But I would argue though,

0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:47.200
<v Speaker 2>that news is important that people are still on Twitter

0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:49.800
<v Speaker 2>because news is there. It's the best place to get

0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>the most up to minute news because the people on

0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:55.400
<v Speaker 2>it so there are you can move people towards quality

0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:58.760
<v Speaker 2>things very easily, even if you can sort of do

0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:00.600
<v Speaker 2>this with the jazz hands with the milkshake.

0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:02.840
<v Speaker 3>I think I just I want to be clear that

0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:05.600
<v Speaker 3>like I still love Starbucks, I still go there. It's

0:29:05.680 --> 0:29:09.880
<v Speaker 3>just you got to look at what incentives produce at

0:29:09.880 --> 0:29:11.800
<v Speaker 3>the end of the day in your business, what do

0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:15.400
<v Speaker 3>they produce, and if you chase profit, if you chase margin,

0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:18.719
<v Speaker 3>if you chase expansion, you will get to a point

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:22.400
<v Speaker 3>where what you end up with are products that are

0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:25.959
<v Speaker 3>purely engineered for that rather than maybe the original mission.

0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 2>But I think I'm curious Kevin with artifact explain what

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:31.240
<v Speaker 2>it is for people who do know. And also you're

0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:34.760
<v Speaker 2>going in a much more vegetable direction. Really, you're going

0:29:34.800 --> 0:29:37.040
<v Speaker 2>for full vegetable or full news junkie.

0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:40.280
<v Speaker 3>Essentially, I'll challenge that we're going full vegetable, but I'll

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:43.719
<v Speaker 3>get there first by explaining what it is. Artifact is

0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:48.680
<v Speaker 3>a fully machine learning driven personalized news reader. So the

0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:50.920
<v Speaker 3>idea is that you show up and we're going to

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:52.960
<v Speaker 3>show you a bunch of things. Because you told us

0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:58.440
<v Speaker 3>you're interested in technology in NFL and cars, we're you're

0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:03.960
<v Speaker 3>interested in fashion, and you're from San Francisco, and we

0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:08.520
<v Speaker 3>will crawl the Internet, not the entire Internet, but what

0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:12.320
<v Speaker 3>we deem is the trustworthy Internet, and we'll bring all

0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:14.120
<v Speaker 3>that content together and then we'll serve it to you

0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:16.080
<v Speaker 3>in a feed, and depending on what you tap on

0:30:16.560 --> 0:30:19.520
<v Speaker 3>and what you engage with, we'll try to learn what

0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:22.240
<v Speaker 3>your actual interests are, and then we'll customize that feed

0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:25.239
<v Speaker 3>over time. So what's happened for me personally is when

0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:27.280
<v Speaker 3>it started, it was just a bunch of tech news,

0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:31.680
<v Speaker 3>and now it's a mix of Japanese architecture and travel recommendations,

0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 3>parenting tips because I have two young kids, and local

0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:39.200
<v Speaker 3>San Francisco politics, and that's great for me. It's a

0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:42.120
<v Speaker 3>mix of wonderful publications that I never would have heard

0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:45.440
<v Speaker 3>of otherwise and helped me discover local publications like the

0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:50.320
<v Speaker 3>San Francisco Standard. Things like this bring content to you

0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:54.400
<v Speaker 3>rather than having you get served content because someone decided

0:30:54.440 --> 0:30:55.280
<v Speaker 3>to post about it.

0:30:55.480 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Or searching for it across a million different platforms. But

0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Apple News does the same for me, Kevin, how's this different?

0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:04.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to say this and it's going to sound

0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:07.200
<v Speaker 3>like a non answer, but you have to see it

0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:11.520
<v Speaker 3>to know the difference. Like my pitch would be that

0:31:11.600 --> 0:31:19.040
<v Speaker 3>we focus on high quality, non trashy publications that aren't

0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 3>so intellectual that they feel out of touch, but that

0:31:23.800 --> 0:31:26.160
<v Speaker 3>aren't like kind of one of the you know, content

0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:29.880
<v Speaker 3>mills that just show you more celebrity photos and that

0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:35.040
<v Speaker 3>it's like, thank you, someone finally built a news recommendation

0:31:35.160 --> 0:31:38.440
<v Speaker 3>service that understands me as someone who is and when

0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:41.480
<v Speaker 3>I say me, I mean someone who loves tech, who

0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 3>loves things that are on the bleeding edge, wants to

0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.520
<v Speaker 3>learn about AI, maybe that have a budding interest in crypto,

0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:50.520
<v Speaker 3>like those types of things. It's like we go beyond

0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:54.960
<v Speaker 3>just the major publications too. We find interesting substacks we

0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:58.440
<v Speaker 3>find interesting recipe authors. So you're not going to find

0:31:58.480 --> 0:32:00.320
<v Speaker 3>that on a place like Apple News. You're not going

0:32:00.400 --> 0:32:02.400
<v Speaker 3>to find that on Google News. And that's okay because

0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:05.040
<v Speaker 3>they're focused on different things. But I think we go

0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:07.720
<v Speaker 3>a little bit more intellectual, and we go a little

0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:10.840
<v Speaker 3>deeper in terms of unique sources, and then on top

0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:13.840
<v Speaker 3>of that the competitive angle. I do believe our machine

0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.000
<v Speaker 3>learning is better than a bunch of these, so we

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:18.880
<v Speaker 3>will personalize better for you, or at least that's our goal.

0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:20.680
<v Speaker 3>So that's how we're different.

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:24.440
<v Speaker 1>You name four areas you're interested in, you know, you

0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:29.520
<v Speaker 1>said local San Francisco politics, parenting articles, Japanese architecture, and

0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:32.040
<v Speaker 1>I forget the fourth one. What was the fourth one, Kevin? I?

0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:33.560
<v Speaker 3>I remember, I don't either.

0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:36.560
<v Speaker 1>But what about like someone like me and care I

0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:40.040
<v Speaker 1>imagine you're like me. I'm interested in probably twenty five

0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:43.760
<v Speaker 1>different things. You know, I'm interest I'm a generalist. I

0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:48.480
<v Speaker 1>want to know what's happening from Megan and Harry to

0:32:48.480 --> 0:32:51.800
<v Speaker 1>Tom Friedman's latest column about the Middle East to what

0:32:51.960 --> 0:32:55.719
<v Speaker 1>Richard coss might have written in Foreign Affairs, to what

0:32:55.760 --> 0:32:59.800
<v Speaker 1>the economist is saying about Israel, to everything to how

0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:02.880
<v Speaker 1>it'll affect you. I mean, obviously I'm heavy on foreign

0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:06.160
<v Speaker 1>policy right now, given everything that's going on in the world,

0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:10.320
<v Speaker 1>But how can you serve me up over such a

0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:13.960
<v Speaker 1>broad area of interest things that I want to see

0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:15.920
<v Speaker 1>without completely overwhelming me.

0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:19.479
<v Speaker 3>They're a couple of ways. The first thing that I

0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:22.560
<v Speaker 3>think is really interesting to talk about here is you

0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:27.800
<v Speaker 3>just discussed revealed versus stated preferences. And if we ask

0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:29.760
<v Speaker 3>you to name all your preferences and we put a

0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:32.320
<v Speaker 3>piece of paper in front of you, For most people,

0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:36.040
<v Speaker 3>that's actually very, very difficult. It's very hard to say

0:33:36.120 --> 0:33:41.600
<v Speaker 3>all the things that you love without seeing them. But

0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:44.800
<v Speaker 3>if a system learned, and this is called exploration in

0:33:44.840 --> 0:33:49.840
<v Speaker 3>the machine learning verbiage, if you can explore potential topics

0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:52.440
<v Speaker 3>for someone and then just note Katie spend a bunch

0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:55.560
<v Speaker 3>of time on foreign affairs. She loves Thomas Friedman. Whenever

0:33:55.600 --> 0:33:58.440
<v Speaker 3>Thomas Freeman writes, she spends a bunch of time reading

0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:02.040
<v Speaker 3>this article. But she also loves like the latest Harry

0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:04.959
<v Speaker 3>and Meghan gossip. Those things are not mutually exclusive, but

0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:08.560
<v Speaker 3>they are on major publications. When you open up a

0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:12.120
<v Speaker 3>major publication, you have sections, you have the front page,

0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:14.880
<v Speaker 3>Harry and Meghan are not on the front page of

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:17.400
<v Speaker 3>the New York Times or the Washington Post most of

0:34:17.440 --> 0:34:21.880
<v Speaker 3>the time probably ever, but for you, maybe they should be.

0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:25.399
<v Speaker 3>And that's really the dream here is that via exploration,

0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:28.200
<v Speaker 3>we can make that front page sing for you, that

0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:31.440
<v Speaker 3>it can feel like it was designed literally just for you.

0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:34.319
<v Speaker 2>Which has been an old goal of everybody. Yahoo. You

0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:38.680
<v Speaker 2>had personalization, Everyone's tried to sort of create this individualized

0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:42.200
<v Speaker 2>news feed for everyone. That's sort of been a long

0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:42.840
<v Speaker 2>time goal.

0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:45.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and maybe what I could do quickly is just

0:34:45.719 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 3>talk about where we've expanded recently, because the scope of

0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:51.400
<v Speaker 3>the company has changed pretty significantly. And that's some of

0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:54.160
<v Speaker 3>what Karen was talking about when she said we're building

0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:57.280
<v Speaker 3>our own little Twitter. We've always believed that we wanted

0:34:57.320 --> 0:35:02.080
<v Speaker 3>to build this personalized homepage for you that other people

0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:04.400
<v Speaker 3>have tried and not done it very well. One of

0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:07.719
<v Speaker 3>the realizations through this, I believe is that it's not

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:11.160
<v Speaker 3>that it's necessarily hard to do. It's that I'm not

0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:14.480
<v Speaker 3>sure people are that impressed, not necessarily with us, but

0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:18.200
<v Speaker 3>just they need more. They need more than articles. They

0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:22.359
<v Speaker 3>want spice, they want unique, interesting content, and where that

0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:26.600
<v Speaker 3>typically comes from is user generated content when people actually

0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:29.400
<v Speaker 3>post something that they're thinking that's unique that you can't

0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:32.759
<v Speaker 3>find anywhere else. So we added this thing, this tab

0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:36.520
<v Speaker 3>called links, which now will let you. It lets you

0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:39.680
<v Speaker 3>post links to things that you find interesting and say

0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:43.800
<v Speaker 3>something about them, which could be not from a major publication,

0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:45.560
<v Speaker 3>it could be a random blog that you found or

0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:48.280
<v Speaker 3>maybe your own blog. But it also lets you post

0:35:48.600 --> 0:35:50.919
<v Speaker 3>just on your own so if you want to write

0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:53.600
<v Speaker 3>four or five paragraphs about something, you can and post

0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:56.040
<v Speaker 3>into it. And this feed has been really fun to

0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:58.239
<v Speaker 3>watch take off in the last few weeks. It's really

0:35:58.320 --> 0:36:01.239
<v Speaker 3>added a different life to Artifacts. Now you can get

0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:03.279
<v Speaker 3>your news, which is fine, but you can get it

0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:06.280
<v Speaker 3>to other places. But now you have these really unique

0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:09.080
<v Speaker 3>posts and links that you can get basically only on

0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:12.080
<v Speaker 3>Artifact on this other tab. But it's all part of

0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:16.520
<v Speaker 3>discovering content using personalization. That's the dream here is that

0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:20.239
<v Speaker 3>we can create this market where producers and consumers can

0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:22.000
<v Speaker 3>get matched and their interests are matched.

0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:25.160
<v Speaker 2>So interest matching. There used to be a company called

0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:28.239
<v Speaker 2>six degrees. Do you remember them. Yeah, Amazon ended up

0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:31.520
<v Speaker 2>buying them, and the idea of putting interests together has

0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:34.720
<v Speaker 2>always been another dream. And what's happened is to generate

0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 2>it into chaos, which is whatever is whatever bubbles up

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:42.600
<v Speaker 2>in terms of enragement is what wins versus because it's

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:45.840
<v Speaker 2>like a car traffic accident versus your interest. One of

0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 2>the reasons TikTok is so successful. It does see your

0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:52.080
<v Speaker 2>interests and it knows what you like and you know more.

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.560
<v Speaker 2>That's more media than social, right, And so the goal

0:36:55.640 --> 0:36:58.359
<v Speaker 2>is to be more media than social because social has

0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:00.879
<v Speaker 2>become so toxic in a lot of ways. And that's

0:37:00.920 --> 0:37:03.200
<v Speaker 2>what's difficult about these businesses.

0:37:05.160 --> 0:37:07.000
<v Speaker 1>When we come back, what in the world is coming

0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:10.480
<v Speaker 1>next for news and media online? Kevin and Kara have

0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:22.399
<v Speaker 1>some ideas and there's real reason to be optimistic. We're

0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:28.200
<v Speaker 1>back with Kara Swisher and Kevin's sistrom. How is business, Kevin?

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:30.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, are you doing well? How are you getting

0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:34.680
<v Speaker 1>people to download yet another app and want to kind

0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:36.520
<v Speaker 1>of change their habits.

0:37:37.080 --> 0:37:40.800
<v Speaker 3>I think what we've done is create a beautiful product

0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:44.520
<v Speaker 3>for some very passionate people, but nowhere near the amount

0:37:44.560 --> 0:37:48.200
<v Speaker 3>of people that use Instagram right, And the question is

0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:51.120
<v Speaker 3>how do you go from one to the other? Because

0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:53.440
<v Speaker 3>Instagram started off very small at the beginning. I mean,

0:37:53.440 --> 0:37:56.120
<v Speaker 3>everyone likes to think, oh, was this overnight success. And

0:37:56.600 --> 0:37:59.600
<v Speaker 3>don't get me wrong, the first day of Instagram we

0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:02.120
<v Speaker 3>had twenty five thousand people sign up and it was great,

0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:05.120
<v Speaker 3>and it continued to grow over time and it retained people.

0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:08.320
<v Speaker 3>The question is not can you get attention? The question

0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:11.879
<v Speaker 3>is can you retain people with a product that they love?

0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:15.280
<v Speaker 3>And we have a group of people that love this product,

0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:19.200
<v Speaker 3>and our main challenge is can we be mainstream? And

0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:23.720
<v Speaker 3>where's the white space? Where can people succeed? Because I mean, Carot,

0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:27.359
<v Speaker 3>what's the last successful consumer startup you have seen? I'm

0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:28.440
<v Speaker 3>curious here.

0:38:28.440 --> 0:38:31.719
<v Speaker 2>It hasn't been in a long time, right, Oh, not

0:38:31.800 --> 0:38:34.240
<v Speaker 2>by a big company. It's been a long time. Someone's

0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:37.359
<v Speaker 2>broken through, Right, it's been a long time. I can't

0:38:37.360 --> 0:38:39.360
<v Speaker 2>think of one. You're very good. And also it also

0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:41.759
<v Speaker 2>has the law of big numbers. Is that you know

0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:43.960
<v Speaker 2>this is something Ben Horowitz of all people said to me.

0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:46.080
<v Speaker 2>He's like, no one's going to create a search engine.

0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:49.399
<v Speaker 2>No one's going to create a consumer commerce company because

0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:52.319
<v Speaker 2>of Amazon search engine, because of Google. No one's going

0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:55.920
<v Speaker 2>to create all these various things because of the large players.

0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:57.879
<v Speaker 2>And that's the real problem is how do you even

0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:02.040
<v Speaker 2>break through. Now. The one example is I gotta say TikTok, right,

0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:03.360
<v Speaker 2>came out of nowhere.

0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:06.640
<v Speaker 3>I actually I'll challenge I'll change, which is I think

0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 3>it's very easy as someone who maybe I was twenty

0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:11.880
<v Speaker 3>five at the time something like that Instagram started, it's

0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:15.960
<v Speaker 3>very easy to be optimistic and green and just believe

0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:18.960
<v Speaker 3>there's all this opportunity and I and then it's very easy.

0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:21.040
<v Speaker 3>Now on the other side, I'm about to turn forty,

0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:24.600
<v Speaker 3>I'm thirty nine right now to believe that there's no

0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:28.560
<v Speaker 3>opportunity or believe that maybe some doors have closed along

0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:31.320
<v Speaker 3>the way. But here's the wonderful thing about the Internet

0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:34.600
<v Speaker 3>that it surprises everyone. I mean, when we found it Instagram,

0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:36.880
<v Speaker 3>could you imagine that anyone would be able to have

0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:41.520
<v Speaker 3>found an image sharing social network to compete with Instagram?

0:39:41.560 --> 0:39:44.880
<v Speaker 3>And then snap came along, and then after stap do

0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:48.560
<v Speaker 3>you believe could you believe anyone could compete with YouTube

0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:52.799
<v Speaker 3>Instagram and snap in video and by the way, not

0:39:52.920 --> 0:39:56.840
<v Speaker 3>even a US company like this is incredible, Like, of course,

0:39:56.960 --> 0:39:59.319
<v Speaker 3>there are always opportunities. So would you have to do

0:39:59.360 --> 0:40:02.560
<v Speaker 3>I think in these situations is fite the urge to

0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.440
<v Speaker 3>believe that all the doors have closed and instead look

0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:08.560
<v Speaker 3>out and say, what are the opportunities that have changed

0:40:08.600 --> 0:40:13.520
<v Speaker 3>because of some fundamental technology change, like, for instance, generative AI.

0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's full of ideas because there's going to be

0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:19.400
<v Speaker 2>general AI for insurance, for healthcare, all kinds of areas,

0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:21.360
<v Speaker 2>so you can It reminds me a little bit of

0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:24.640
<v Speaker 2>when the mobile phone came right that you couldn't have

0:40:24.680 --> 0:40:27.880
<v Speaker 2>imagined Instagram before the mobile phone could do easily.

0:40:28.440 --> 0:40:31.759
<v Speaker 3>Now most people when they see companies start thinking, oh,

0:40:31.800 --> 0:40:32.800
<v Speaker 3>that idea is too small.

0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:33.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's true.

0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:35.920
<v Speaker 3>And the question isn't is the idea too small at

0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:38.000
<v Speaker 3>the beginning, it's what is the ambition of the person

0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:40.680
<v Speaker 3>who's running it and what direction are they headed? Because

0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:42.759
<v Speaker 3>if you can map out that mark is going to

0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:45.680
<v Speaker 3>take it from Harvard to other Ivy League schools, to

0:40:45.760 --> 0:40:48.520
<v Speaker 3>every school, to every other college, to high schools, et cetera,

0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:51.680
<v Speaker 3>and then take over the world. Like then you say, okay,

0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:53.080
<v Speaker 3>this is interesting.

0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:53.839
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know.

0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:55.879
<v Speaker 3>There are a lot of companies that get started and

0:40:55.960 --> 0:40:59.120
<v Speaker 3>stay very happy with very small audiences. So it's not

0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:00.880
<v Speaker 3>about the idea, it's about the direction.

0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:03.800
<v Speaker 1>I want to just spend a couple of minutes talking

0:41:03.840 --> 0:41:07.279
<v Speaker 1>about the media landscape and the state of news, which

0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:10.799
<v Speaker 1>is what prompted you to create Artifact, Kevin in the

0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:14.480
<v Speaker 1>first place. And I'd love to get your take on

0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:19.279
<v Speaker 1>what is happening on Twitter now or X and what

0:41:19.360 --> 0:41:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk has done to turn it into such a cesspool. Obviously,

0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:27.880
<v Speaker 1>people can buy blue checks, so nobody is really verified.

0:41:28.280 --> 0:41:33.160
<v Speaker 1>The ad model has changed, there's ai I think that's

0:41:33.200 --> 0:41:36.759
<v Speaker 1>creating a lot of dis and misinformation. But I'd love

0:41:36.800 --> 0:41:40.319
<v Speaker 1>to ask you, Kara, what has X becommon Why?

0:41:41.560 --> 0:41:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting because it's still a little necessary because

0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:46.600
<v Speaker 2>it's so everyone's there and it's frantic, you know what

0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:48.279
<v Speaker 2>I mean. And so if they're like, if there's I

0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:49.120
<v Speaker 2>still go on it?

0:41:49.160 --> 0:41:49.400
<v Speaker 1>I do.

0:41:49.680 --> 0:41:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Sure, it's useful. It's because everybody's there, everybody, But it's

0:41:52.640 --> 0:41:54.920
<v Speaker 2>sort of like one of those clubs or a place

0:41:55.000 --> 0:41:57.239
<v Speaker 2>a downtown that you know you still have to kind

0:41:57.239 --> 0:41:59.880
<v Speaker 2>of go to. But it sucks now. It's like it's dirtier,

0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:02.280
<v Speaker 2>there's really weird people hanging around.

0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:04.480
<v Speaker 3>No one says that about San Francisco. I'm not sure

0:42:04.480 --> 0:42:05.239
<v Speaker 3>what you're talking about.

0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:07.680
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no, no. I love Sirence. Don't insult

0:42:07.680 --> 0:42:10.799
<v Speaker 2>San Francisco to Karas for sure. So I find it

0:42:10.880 --> 0:42:14.040
<v Speaker 2>really hard to use. I have to turn off comments

0:42:14.080 --> 0:42:17.520
<v Speaker 2>now because of the really the flood of really crazy people.

0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:20.160
<v Speaker 2>And I'm joking about Elon must but he also you know,

0:42:20.920 --> 0:42:24.640
<v Speaker 2>it's really unpleasant, and so it's become an unpleasant experience.

0:42:25.200 --> 0:42:27.160
<v Speaker 2>But you put up with it because of the benefits

0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:29.560
<v Speaker 2>of getting instant, like there's no other place to go

0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:31.320
<v Speaker 2>right now to watch the vote happening.

0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:34.680
<v Speaker 1>And didn't he fire everybody who was kind of evaluating

0:42:34.760 --> 0:42:37.040
<v Speaker 1>content and flagging content.

0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:39.600
<v Speaker 2>A lot a lot, Well, they say, not everybody.

0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:42.600
<v Speaker 1>And then I keep getting these ads what doctors don't

0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:44.959
<v Speaker 1>want you to do to your coffee? Like why why

0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:47.839
<v Speaker 1>do they keep why do they keep feeding me that ad?

0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.799
<v Speaker 2>Because they're paying because the check is cashing. I don't know.

0:42:50.840 --> 0:42:52.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's really I think it could go for

0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.160
<v Speaker 2>a while. These things can go for a while. Kevin

0:42:55.200 --> 0:42:57.600
<v Speaker 2>knows that these things can hold on for and he's

0:42:57.600 --> 0:43:00.000
<v Speaker 2>the richest man in the world, so he can afford.

0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:02.719
<v Speaker 2>It's like having a one of these Megga yachts that's

0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:04.759
<v Speaker 2>seeping oil out of it. He can keep doing it

0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:06.920
<v Speaker 2>and paying the fines for it. For a long time.

0:43:07.520 --> 0:43:10.719
<v Speaker 1>What was frustrating to you, Kevin about the news environment

0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:14.000
<v Speaker 1>and how did you say, Oh, I need to fix

0:43:14.040 --> 0:43:16.120
<v Speaker 1>this or I need to fill a hole that's missing.

0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:19.000
<v Speaker 3>I want to be clear that I think Artifact is

0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:21.319
<v Speaker 3>much more than just news. Like, of course we're in

0:43:21.360 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 3>the news category in the app store, and that's the

0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:25.960
<v Speaker 3>easiest way to talk about what we are. But I

0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:30.200
<v Speaker 3>think by frustration actually is that people only think about news.

0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:32.759
<v Speaker 3>When you talk about news, they don't think about all

0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:35.759
<v Speaker 3>the amazing content out there that has nothing to do

0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:36.960
<v Speaker 3>with the day as headlines.

0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:39.400
<v Speaker 1>We should probably call it a content app.

0:43:39.719 --> 0:43:45.080
<v Speaker 3>Really, Yeah, that's right, And I think people are thirsty

0:43:45.200 --> 0:43:48.279
<v Speaker 3>for that type of information because they don't want yet

0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:51.640
<v Speaker 3>another if it bleeds, it leads story. What they want

0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:55.560
<v Speaker 3>is some value in their life, a discovery. Like there's

0:43:55.600 --> 0:43:59.319
<v Speaker 3>this guy who just documented his trip throughout Japan in

0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:02.799
<v Speaker 3>a photo assay and I found it on Artifact and

0:44:02.840 --> 0:44:05.399
<v Speaker 3>it was this moment where I've been to Japan only

0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:07.520
<v Speaker 3>a few times. It's one of my favorite places on Earth.

0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:10.000
<v Speaker 3>But I scrolled through and I was just like, Okay,

0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:14.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm taken back and I'm not reading about some awful

0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:17.520
<v Speaker 3>thing that happened in downtown San Francisco today because I

0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:21.360
<v Speaker 3>can get that elsewhere. That's the opportunity is not necessarily

0:44:21.400 --> 0:44:24.920
<v Speaker 3>the news industry, but rather what are people reading, what

0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:28.080
<v Speaker 3>are people being served and why? And if you focus

0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:32.640
<v Speaker 3>on these platforms that focus on the most insane stories

0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:35.719
<v Speaker 3>being pushed to you, you're just going to get that

0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:37.719
<v Speaker 3>type of content I said I wanted to avoid. So

0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:41.160
<v Speaker 3>the real opportunity here is and you learn someone's interests

0:44:41.160 --> 0:44:43.839
<v Speaker 3>and can you delight them with content that doesn't make

0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:46.040
<v Speaker 3>them want to shut the app and anger every single day.

0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:49.480
<v Speaker 2>I think the word delight you're using is absolutely the case.

0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:51.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's why I do have a good feeling

0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:54.080
<v Speaker 2>about threads. I find it delightful sometimes. I was laughing

0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:57.160
<v Speaker 2>at it the other day. They have some astronomy person

0:44:57.440 --> 0:44:59.759
<v Speaker 2>right on there, and I'm not interested in astronomy, but

0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:01.719
<v Speaker 2>I and I don't know why. Or they had a

0:45:01.800 --> 0:45:04.040
<v Speaker 2>video that made me laugh, or cat videos or whatever.

0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:07.280
<v Speaker 2>And on artifact just now stuff I wouldn't have found,

0:45:07.320 --> 0:45:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Like there's a piece that someone else discovered that then

0:45:10.400 --> 0:45:12.920
<v Speaker 2>showed me, which was when was the last time Mark

0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:15.120
<v Speaker 2>injuries and talked to a poor person. It made me laugh.

0:45:15.320 --> 0:45:18.440
<v Speaker 2>I was like, probably never, you know, since he was

0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:20.759
<v Speaker 2>a kid, essentially when he was poor, and that's the

0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:22.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing you need. I think there's a real

0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:26.000
<v Speaker 2>if there's a trend, Kevin, maybe you could answers there's

0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:29.160
<v Speaker 2>a trend toward getting sick of crap, like everyone is

0:45:29.280 --> 0:45:32.120
<v Speaker 2>sick of crap. And I do think there is a

0:45:32.200 --> 0:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>trend towards And I think it's the same with voters.

0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:38.000
<v Speaker 2>They don't want to hear anymore from screaming people, screaming

0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:40.719
<v Speaker 2>angry people. They want to hear about things they like

0:45:40.800 --> 0:45:43.720
<v Speaker 2>about their family. And I think that's kind of a secret,

0:45:43.800 --> 0:45:48.000
<v Speaker 2>silent majority of people being delighted by things or discovering

0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:50.080
<v Speaker 2>things that are of interest in them, even if they're

0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:51.560
<v Speaker 2>hard stories or whatever.

0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:53.880
<v Speaker 1>But do you think they want to hear things that

0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:58.120
<v Speaker 1>are not so partisan too, I mean anything, You know,

0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:03.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm desperate to actually have someone explained to me what

0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:08.600
<v Speaker 1>is going on with this committee that's investigating Joe Biden

0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:13.160
<v Speaker 1>and claiming that his family has made ten million dollars

0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:15.880
<v Speaker 1>in you know, it's on some right wing news site

0:46:15.920 --> 0:46:18.520
<v Speaker 1>that I actually get their newsletter because I want to

0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:21.640
<v Speaker 1>hear what they're saying. But I sent it to a

0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:24.480
<v Speaker 1>friend and I said, I'm so confused. Is any of

0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:26.560
<v Speaker 1>this actually true? Right?

0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:31.200
<v Speaker 3>I think verifying information is really hard today. You never

0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:35.399
<v Speaker 3>know who to trust, even with large publications. You don't

0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.920
<v Speaker 3>know if there's some ulterior motive or partisan angle. And

0:46:38.960 --> 0:46:41.000
<v Speaker 3>I think one of the reasons why I'm excited about

0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:44.799
<v Speaker 3>artifacts and the algorithmic approach is there's all these new

0:46:44.840 --> 0:46:49.560
<v Speaker 3>advancements in balancing perspectives. So there's this thing called bridging algorithms.

0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:52.240
<v Speaker 3>The idea is like you can kind of lump people

0:46:52.280 --> 0:46:56.000
<v Speaker 3>based on their history of reading into you know, right

0:46:56.120 --> 0:46:59.040
<v Speaker 3>or left politically, and what you can do is look

0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:02.960
<v Speaker 3>for articles that actually resonate with both rather than just

0:47:03.160 --> 0:47:07.240
<v Speaker 3>deepen the divide. And this is well studied. It's actually

0:47:07.360 --> 0:47:10.879
<v Speaker 3>used on Twitter today on acts ironically Kara for their

0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:14.360
<v Speaker 3>community notes product. That's how they decide which community notes

0:47:14.400 --> 0:47:17.360
<v Speaker 3>actually get shown, because otherwise you have people on the

0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:20.760
<v Speaker 3>right doing community notes, correcting the lefties and the lefties

0:47:20.760 --> 0:47:23.600
<v Speaker 3>correcting the righting right. So like, the way it can

0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:28.120
<v Speaker 3>be applied in mass to news and information is by

0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:31.520
<v Speaker 3>noticing that certain things have a bias not in terms

0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:35.120
<v Speaker 3>of content, but who they resonate with yeah, and then

0:47:35.200 --> 0:47:38.440
<v Speaker 3>finding content that brings people together. We're far too small

0:47:38.480 --> 0:47:40.440
<v Speaker 3>and early right now for a lot of this to

0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:41.040
<v Speaker 3>make sense.

0:47:41.320 --> 0:47:44.200
<v Speaker 1>Is anybody doing that, Kevin, I haven't heard of anyone

0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:45.680
<v Speaker 1>else even considering it.

0:47:46.040 --> 0:47:46.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's hard.

0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:49.760
<v Speaker 3>Well, what's funny, care is it's actually not hard, meaning

0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:53.120
<v Speaker 3>technically it's not hard. What's hard is to make the

0:47:53.239 --> 0:47:56.600
<v Speaker 3>choice to do it. Because you are seen as somehow

0:47:57.120 --> 0:48:01.600
<v Speaker 3>trying to push liberal content to conservatives or conservative content liberals.

0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:05.040
<v Speaker 3>You violate one of the groups. And I think that's

0:48:05.120 --> 0:48:07.399
<v Speaker 3>very hard when you're very large and you know you're

0:48:07.400 --> 0:48:10.960
<v Speaker 3>trying to balance whatever party is in power with legislation

0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:14.279
<v Speaker 3>against your company and investigations and so it becomes a

0:48:14.400 --> 0:48:18.120
<v Speaker 3>very difficult place to be as a large company, but

0:48:18.239 --> 0:48:20.879
<v Speaker 3>not a difficult place if you're a smaller you're trying

0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:21.200
<v Speaker 3>to grow.

0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:25.640
<v Speaker 1>It's anesthetical though, to what Kara often calls engagement through enragement,

0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:28.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, like, if you want people you want to

0:48:28.840 --> 0:48:31.799
<v Speaker 1>feed the dogs the dog food and you want affirmation

0:48:31.960 --> 0:48:37.040
<v Speaker 1>instead of information, challenging people's worldview to me would work

0:48:37.120 --> 0:48:40.600
<v Speaker 1>against the whole visceral connection. You have to content that

0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:42.880
<v Speaker 1>makes you stay on the platform, right.

0:48:43.200 --> 0:48:46.120
<v Speaker 3>Well, in this case, I'm explaining something slightly different, which

0:48:46.200 --> 0:48:49.680
<v Speaker 3>is you're looking for content that resonates with both sides,

0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:54.360
<v Speaker 3>so it actually drives engagement on both sides because people

0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:56.680
<v Speaker 3>see some common thread in it.

0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:57.680
<v Speaker 2>It's commonality.

0:48:57.960 --> 0:48:59.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right.

0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:01.759
<v Speaker 2>Years ago a Well started. That's how it started. And

0:49:02.080 --> 0:49:04.360
<v Speaker 2>the first thing I ever noticed it was when he

0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:07.880
<v Speaker 2>had a group of quilters who had met on AOL

0:49:08.000 --> 0:49:10.640
<v Speaker 2>and they had made a quilt of an AOL symbol

0:49:11.120 --> 0:49:13.400
<v Speaker 2>and they finally met in person and met him, and

0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:15.680
<v Speaker 2>they felt like they knew him. And it was so

0:49:15.880 --> 0:49:18.719
<v Speaker 2>positive because these were people so different from each other

0:49:19.120 --> 0:49:21.880
<v Speaker 2>that just liked to quilt and they managed to create

0:49:21.920 --> 0:49:24.759
<v Speaker 2>it online. And I remember thinking this could be used

0:49:24.800 --> 0:49:26.840
<v Speaker 2>for such good things, and it could be used for

0:49:26.960 --> 0:49:30.440
<v Speaker 2>such bad things, like I could see the opposite people

0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:32.759
<v Speaker 2>that like to make bombs and blow up people they.

0:49:32.640 --> 0:49:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Don't like, or white supremacists.

0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:37.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yoh no it listen. AOL was good for white

0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:42.239
<v Speaker 2>supremacists early on too, So connection is what you're talking about.

0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:45.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm excited to check out artifact and use it.

0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:46.160
<v Speaker 2>It's great.

0:49:46.239 --> 0:49:49.319
<v Speaker 1>I downloaded it. Appreciate that, Kevin, Thank you so much

0:49:49.360 --> 0:49:51.400
<v Speaker 1>for doing this. It was really fun to talk to you.

0:49:51.440 --> 0:49:54.160
<v Speaker 1>Good luck with your latest venture, Tevin.

0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:56.759
<v Speaker 2>I'll call you. I'll be in San Francisco soon. We'll

0:49:56.760 --> 0:49:58.960
<v Speaker 2>walk around the Hellsgate, which is not a hellscape.

0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:07.239
<v Speaker 3>Okay, no, actually quite nice.

0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:10.400
<v Speaker 1>I feel like you two speak a whole different language

0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:13.480
<v Speaker 1>than me. But I think I was able to keep them.

0:50:13.520 --> 0:50:16.400
<v Speaker 1>You kept too, You kept up. Yeah, he's a nice guy,

0:50:16.440 --> 0:50:18.440
<v Speaker 1>isn't he? What do you think quality guy? Do you

0:50:18.480 --> 0:50:20.719
<v Speaker 1>think artifact is going to be successful? Kiara?

0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:23.439
<v Speaker 2>I think it's hard, Like it's just hard because people

0:50:23.480 --> 0:50:26.799
<v Speaker 2>are attracted by terrible things, right, that's the problem. We've

0:50:26.840 --> 0:50:29.839
<v Speaker 2>been trained in this. The internet went a certain way.

0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:32.359
<v Speaker 2>It's not a good way. But I do believe when

0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:35.440
<v Speaker 2>I use that or threads now, I'm very happy and

0:50:35.480 --> 0:50:38.000
<v Speaker 2>I like it. And so maybe that maybe you can

0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:40.040
<v Speaker 2>change your habits, your bad habits.

0:50:40.080 --> 0:50:42.040
<v Speaker 1>I guess what do you think is going to happen

0:50:42.120 --> 0:50:44.080
<v Speaker 1>to the news business. I don't want to start this

0:50:44.120 --> 0:50:48.200
<v Speaker 1>whole conversation, but it is a long one. But but

0:50:48.600 --> 0:50:50.359
<v Speaker 1>how do you think it's going to shake out? Carara?

0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:54.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just in a really difficult state.

0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:57.600
<v Speaker 2>I think it'll be just fine. You do, I think

0:50:57.640 --> 0:51:00.000
<v Speaker 2>there are new economic models that everybody has to get

0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:03.520
<v Speaker 2>adjusted to, whether especially in Hollywood for example, around streaming

0:51:03.760 --> 0:51:05.880
<v Speaker 2>and cable news. But you know, I just did an

0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:07.920
<v Speaker 2>interview with Perry Diller, and I think he's right. These

0:51:07.960 --> 0:51:13.239
<v Speaker 2>are worldwide distribution networks of information. Still, you know, television

0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:15.920
<v Speaker 2>is everywhere, and so the question is how do you

0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:19.920
<v Speaker 2>get people to engage in the content itself? And maybe

0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:23.319
<v Speaker 2>we have to stop thinking less about how than the

0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:25.960
<v Speaker 2>content itself. And I'll give you one example, which I've

0:51:26.000 --> 0:51:27.840
<v Speaker 2>told this story before, but I was just in a

0:51:27.840 --> 0:51:31.359
<v Speaker 2>frontline documentary about Twitter, and I had participated in their

0:51:31.360 --> 0:51:33.319
<v Speaker 2>previous one when I think they do great work. And

0:51:33.360 --> 0:51:35.719
<v Speaker 2>so I was doing it and my phone rang and

0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:37.799
<v Speaker 2>my son called and he said, what are you doing, mom?

0:51:37.800 --> 0:51:39.719
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm doing a frontline interview and he goes,

0:51:39.760 --> 0:51:42.360
<v Speaker 2>I love Frontline and I said really, And then he

0:51:42.440 --> 0:51:45.239
<v Speaker 2>started talking about all the frontlines he watches. I don't

0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:47.239
<v Speaker 2>watch it as much as he does, and I put

0:51:47.280 --> 0:51:49.120
<v Speaker 2>on the speaker because these people are like, look, it's

0:51:49.120 --> 0:51:51.160
<v Speaker 2>a twenty one year old loves frontline. Look at this.

0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:54.279
<v Speaker 2>And I said to him, I didn't know you watched PBS.

0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:56.319
<v Speaker 2>And he said, I don't watch PBS. Why would I

0:51:56.320 --> 0:51:59.719
<v Speaker 2>watch PBS. I see it on YouTube. Well that's a

0:51:59.719 --> 0:52:02.680
<v Speaker 2>win as far as I'm concerned, if we become adaptable

0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:05.719
<v Speaker 2>to where people are. People are giving up cable for

0:52:06.000 --> 0:52:09.000
<v Speaker 2>YouTube TV, and so that's where I'm work like, people

0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:13.600
<v Speaker 2>are not listening, they're not watching. It's just it's just changed.

0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:16.200
<v Speaker 2>And then the economics have changed, and that's the problem.

0:52:16.400 --> 0:52:17.360
<v Speaker 2>That's what's happened.

0:52:17.440 --> 0:52:19.760
<v Speaker 1>And I think if you build quality, they will come,

0:52:20.000 --> 0:52:22.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, I do think, yes, I do. I mean,

0:52:22.480 --> 0:52:25.320
<v Speaker 1>and they might be in smaller numbers because I always

0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:27.360
<v Speaker 1>say mass media is and oxymoron.

0:52:27.440 --> 0:52:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Now I think we started with you going to Yahoo.

0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:31.759
<v Speaker 2>You're a testimony to this, right, you have much more

0:52:31.800 --> 0:52:32.960
<v Speaker 2>control over your content.

0:52:33.200 --> 0:52:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, we have a whole different financial model where we

0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:40.279
<v Speaker 1>work with companies and tell stories often in conjunction with them,

0:52:40.320 --> 0:52:44.400
<v Speaker 1>because as trust in media and other institutions has declined,

0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:48.319
<v Speaker 1>trusting companies has increased and employees are demanding it. So

0:52:48.760 --> 0:52:52.239
<v Speaker 1>we actually our revenue model is to work with companies

0:52:52.719 --> 0:52:56.760
<v Speaker 1>for you know, for year long or multiple year sponsorships

0:52:56.800 --> 0:52:59.680
<v Speaker 1>and partnerships. Really in good storytelling.

0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:02.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I'm saying you're making as much money. It

0:53:02.719 --> 0:53:05.760
<v Speaker 2>may not be the big organizations that are right. Maybe

0:53:05.800 --> 0:53:07.319
<v Speaker 2>that's what it is. There'll be a whole bunch of

0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:11.719
<v Speaker 2>media entrepreneurs like yourself, Like myself, I'm doing great. I

0:53:11.840 --> 0:53:14.680
<v Speaker 2>just am not attached to a big, giant ocean liners all.

0:53:14.680 --> 0:53:16.239
<v Speaker 2>I just have a little, speedy, little boat and it

0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:16.959
<v Speaker 2>does really well.

0:53:17.120 --> 0:53:20.080
<v Speaker 1>And you love that and you love not being beholden

0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:24.680
<v Speaker 1>to these big corporations. Yeah, because nobody tells Kara Swish

0:53:24.760 --> 0:53:25.319
<v Speaker 1>or what to do.

0:53:25.600 --> 0:53:27.319
<v Speaker 2>Nobody tells Katie Kirk what to do.

0:53:27.400 --> 0:53:28.920
<v Speaker 1>Is it very awesome though, Kia.

0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:31.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes, we're always like this or not. This is the

0:53:31.800 --> 0:53:33.319
<v Speaker 2>way we are, and I think it does appeal to

0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:37.239
<v Speaker 2>our entrepreneurial natures. And I think any journalist is not entrepreneurial.

0:53:37.280 --> 0:53:39.120
<v Speaker 2>It's going to have a harder time going forward. That's

0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:42.600
<v Speaker 2>my definite feeling. You have to sort of start to

0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:45.160
<v Speaker 2>think it's okay, like Kevin was talking about, if it's

0:53:45.160 --> 0:53:47.800
<v Speaker 2>a small business, it doesn't have to be Instagram, right,

0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:50.319
<v Speaker 2>It's okay. You can do very well with a very

0:53:50.360 --> 0:53:52.680
<v Speaker 2>small business. You can do very well, and you get

0:53:52.719 --> 0:53:53.399
<v Speaker 2>to do what you want.

0:53:53.680 --> 0:53:55.799
<v Speaker 1>I get a smaller audience than I did when I

0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:57.759
<v Speaker 1>was at the Today Show. But I also feel like

0:53:57.800 --> 0:53:59.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm still serving a need. You know.

0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:00.520
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

0:54:00.640 --> 0:54:03.920
<v Speaker 1>The stuff that I'm doing is reaching people who want it,

0:54:04.000 --> 0:54:06.799
<v Speaker 1>the people who find it useful. That's right, And that

0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:09.400
<v Speaker 1>makes me feel like I have purpose.

0:54:10.000 --> 0:54:12.560
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. That's correct. It's just different, that's all. I

0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:15.440
<v Speaker 2>don't think it's I think people are still desperate for information,

0:54:15.560 --> 0:54:19.040
<v Speaker 2>good information, and new good news, and not just good news,

0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:22.600
<v Speaker 2>but news done well. And I think this recent situation

0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Israel sort of underscores it. People are very confused by

0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:28.920
<v Speaker 2>bad information and they need good information to make good

0:54:28.960 --> 0:54:31.960
<v Speaker 2>decisions about what's happening and what to do about it.

0:54:32.040 --> 0:54:35.359
<v Speaker 2>And that's critical. It remains critical, Kara.

0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:37.520
<v Speaker 1>But I'll let you go because if you keep talking,

0:54:37.600 --> 0:54:39.600
<v Speaker 1>you're never going to get your voice back.

0:54:39.880 --> 0:54:42.680
<v Speaker 2>No, Katie, I never take a break. I never take

0:54:42.719 --> 0:54:44.400
<v Speaker 2>a break like you. I let you know. You're my

0:54:44.520 --> 0:54:46.440
<v Speaker 2>year o. Katie. You never take a break.

0:54:46.480 --> 0:54:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you I like working?

0:54:48.400 --> 0:54:49.640
<v Speaker 2>I know you do. You're good at it.

0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:52.319
<v Speaker 1>Kara, thank you for being my plus one. This was

0:54:52.400 --> 0:54:52.960
<v Speaker 1>so fun.

0:54:53.160 --> 0:54:53.840
<v Speaker 2>No problem.

0:54:53.960 --> 0:55:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Let's do it again anytime. Thanks for listening. Everyone. If

0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:07.600
<v Speaker 1>you have a question for me, a subject you want

0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:10.040
<v Speaker 1>us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts

0:55:10.080 --> 0:55:13.880
<v Speaker 1>about how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You

0:55:13.920 --> 0:55:16.799
<v Speaker 1>can leave a short message at six oh nine five

0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:20.040
<v Speaker 1>point two five to five five, or you can send

0:55:20.080 --> 0:55:22.680
<v Speaker 1>me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear

0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:26.560
<v Speaker 1>from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and

0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric,

0:55:30.880 --> 0:55:35.480
<v Speaker 1>and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and

0:55:35.560 --> 0:55:40.720
<v Speaker 1>our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller

0:55:40.840 --> 0:55:45.400
<v Speaker 1>composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

0:55:45.640 --> 0:55:48.040
<v Speaker 1>or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

0:55:48.480 --> 0:55:51.400
<v Speaker 1>go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

0:55:51.480 --> 0:55:54.680
<v Speaker 1>us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:58.439
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0:55:58.520 --> 0:56:03.840
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0:56:03.880 --> 0:56:05.960
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