1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,159 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: my name is Noel. 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 3: our super producer Bull Mission Control Decads. Most importantly, you 9 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. And we want to 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 3: do something very important. At the top of tonight's exploration. 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: We are talking about adoption, and we want to start 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 3: off by saying adoption is an amazing thing. It can 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 3: be a profound testament to the noble aspects of the 15 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 3: human experiment. I was reading this old, this old quote 16 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 3: from an amateur wrestler who later became President Abe Lincoln. 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 4: I thought, you're gonna say, Jesse the Body venture though 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 4: he didn't become president, he was just a governor. 19 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 3: Well, well, there's this this concept in an inaugural speech 20 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 3: that Lincoln makes about the better angels of our nature, 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 3: and that that quote stays with me. I think it 22 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 3: stays with a lot of us, and adoption is one 23 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 3: of the true, real life examples of how people can 24 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 3: be better than you would imagine them to be. 25 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, we have several colleagues who have adopted, and we've 26 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 4: kind of followed that trajectory from you know, the all 27 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 4: the paperwork and the craziness that goes into it, and 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 4: it really does require a lot of effort, can be 29 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 4: very expensive and time consuming and ultimately disappointing for some 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 4: who do not you know, actually get to the to 31 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 4: the final stage. But it's a beautiful thing. Absolutely. 32 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 5: Yeah. 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: Several of our colleagues have multiple children that they've adopted 34 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 2: and you know, have raised children all like, all the way, 35 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 2: all the way to adulthood. 36 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 4: It is just to say that, like it is their child, 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Because we get into this 38 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 4: later in the show, but the idea of what adoption means, 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 4: it is a lifelong pursuit simply because you know, it 40 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 4: is giving all of yourself, you know, to a human 41 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 4: being and the same way you would if it were 42 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 4: your own flesh and blood. 43 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: And this brings us to an astonishing moment right now. 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 3: A lot of us listening along this evening may have 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: been adopted, right may have adopted children into their families. 46 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 3: It's a win win When it works, people who want 47 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 3: nothing more than to be parents literally are saving the 48 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: lives of children who want nothing more than to. 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 4: Be part of a family. That's pretty cool, dude. My 50 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 4: cousin is adopted and she's my cousin. It's something that 51 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 4: never crosses my mind. You know, she is family through 52 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 4: and through. There's no like second class nature to that relationship. 53 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: So it's crucial that we say all of this at 54 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 3: the very beginning because we are exploring an extremely sensitive subject. 55 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 3: This episode is in no way meant to diminish nor 56 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: disparage the beauty in that. We will have a We 57 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: will have a future exploration of the foster care system, 58 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 3: which we're going to bracket here. You got to understand, 59 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist, the reason we're talking so positively about 60 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 3: adoption when it works is because sometimes it doesn't. Tonight 61 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: we are exploring the dark side of adoption. Here are 62 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 3: the facts, all right. As we were saying earlier, we're 63 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 3: throwing the word adoption around. What is it? 64 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 2: Adoption is when a human being assumes all the responsibilities 65 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 2: of a child that the biological parents would have according 66 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: to the laws of wherever you're living, and it is 67 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 2: a bit different than fostering. Maybe we should talk about 68 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: the difference between adopting someone legally and then being a 69 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 2: foster parent. 70 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 4: In the US alone, tens of thousands of children are 71 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 4: adopted each year, and that number becomes particularly impressive once 72 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 4: we understand the regulations around who is allowed to adopt, 73 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 4: along with the emotional and financial aspects of this relationship. Again, 74 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 4: like I mentioned earlier, it is a significant expenditure for 75 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 4: folks that are seeking to to do this kindness, you know, 76 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 4: to another human being. It can take a very long time, 77 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 4: and it can often be riddled with disappointment if things 78 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 4: don't work out, despite the outlay of funds in order 79 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 4: to participate in the process. So it is very significant 80 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 4: in that respect, both emotionally and financially. 81 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 3: And to Matt's earlier point here, the difference between fostering 82 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: a human being and adopting a human beings, let's just 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 3: get that, get that articulated really quick for sure. 84 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 4: Just I mean fostering is more of a temporary sort 85 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 4: of stop gap measure, whereas adopting is for the long haul. 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the primary difference really to point 87 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: to here when you choose to adopt, When when an 88 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: adult human being or human beings choose to adopt, it 89 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: is that legal taking on of all responsibilities in perpetuity. 90 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 3: Filial responsibilities would be the you know, the the word 91 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 3: for this with a tie on is filial rights and responsibilities. 92 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: There are rights included in this as well, which is 93 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 3: historically mission critical. Our pal Jacob Silverman, utter legend from 94 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: our alma mater, How Stuff Works, describes adoption as a 95 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:27,679 Speaker 3: lifelong process, and I think that's an exceedingly accurate way 96 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 3: to look at this. It's not it's not an on 97 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 3: and off switch, you know, It's not a one afternoon 98 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: in Burma kind of thing. The modern form of adoption 99 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 3: as practiced today did emerge in the United States Go Team, 100 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 3: but versions of this have existed across human culture at 101 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 3: every age of human history. I mean, I was looking 102 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: back at the Coda Hamarabi because I'm fun of parties, 103 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 3: and the adoption is mentioned in the first written instance 104 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: of law. But adoption was very different in evenings past. 105 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: A lot of it was meant to not necessarily create 106 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: a family, but more so to to do geo political 107 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 3: or intertribal things like that. One of the big things 108 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: was you had to have a male heir, right, you 109 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 3: had to have a little guy to carry it on. 110 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and there I think in the news right 111 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: now there's information circulating about Japan's only male air has 112 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: just become eighteen or something, and it's a huge deal. 113 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: And if you can only imagine through all the centuries 114 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: when marnarky has prevailed in most parts of the world, 115 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: having the you know, the rules that you got to 116 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: have a male that takes over everything. It was a 117 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: huge deal for a royal family in particular to have 118 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: someone in line. And it is weird to think how 119 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: people just get kind of could be pushed up through 120 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: that system if you did choose to adopt someone from 121 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: another you know, close to royal family or something, you know, 122 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: something like that, to arrange for another person to take 123 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: over once the crown whoever dies. 124 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing, you know. I was astonished to 125 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 3: find a while back that some of the emperors of 126 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: ancient Rome were on purpose adopted by on purpose, I 127 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: mean they were adopted not necessarily to be part of 128 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 3: a family, but to continue some weird dynasty. 129 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: Well because you could train them. Once you adopt that person, 130 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: you can basically make them one of us us right, right, So. 131 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: Who is free and who is a slave. In the 132 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 3: Roman Empire, there fame as a cage. Let's remember that. 133 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 3: Sadly though, the adoption of infants, like in the modern evenings, 134 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 3: a lot of times when folks are searching to adopt 135 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 3: a child, they're looking for the youngest human possible. Infant 136 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 3: adoption was kind of rare historically in the ancient empires, 137 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 3: you might see cases where what we'll call a foundling 138 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: is taken in raised as a member of the family, 139 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 3: primarily because most people are like working in farms or 140 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: agriculture and they want that free labor. Shout out. Also 141 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 3: to show Nolan and I do called ridiculous history, you 142 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 3: can you can check out our brother Matt Frederick on 143 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 3: that with one of my favorite sound cues. Noel, do 144 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: you remember we did the story about the orphan train. 145 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean, like the well meaning, well intentioned program 146 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 4: in the United States too. On the way I'm going 147 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 4: to say it is gonna sound well mean, but to 148 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 4: round up children with seemingly having no parents and ship 149 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 4: them off to work in farms, to be looked after 150 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,479 Speaker 4: by kindly farmer families, again well intentioned. There were abuses. 151 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 4: There was a lack of infrastructure that led to some 152 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 4: issues with kids falling through the cracks, but ultimately, at 153 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 4: the end of the day, there it was at least 154 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 4: a partial success story. 155 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: Noble intent better angels of our nature. They also did 156 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: auction children. There was auction. 157 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: I want to point out another thing that's in popular culture. 158 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: It's a story that has been passed down for a 159 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: long time where there are two warring factions and some 160 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: child is left, you know, in a village or something 161 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 2: that has been raised by the enemy forces of that village, 162 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: and there's a child there. One of the warlords or 163 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: people end up adopting that child and they become like 164 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: an apprentice and then moved up. And that's just a 165 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: popular thing that occurs. That doesn't really I don't know 166 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: if there is any historical significance to that or I 167 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: that is, you know, a tale born of something that 168 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: actually happened. 169 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 5: But I just I know I see that a lot. 170 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 4: And another example historically speaking is of course Moses from 171 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 4: the Bible, from the Book of Exodus, who is found 172 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 4: as a babe in the Russias or whatever, and adopted 173 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 4: by a powerful family and then ultimately became a pretty important, 174 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 4: powerful political figure. 175 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 3: Let's just say I love it. We also know a 176 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 3: great reference to Moses here, because we also know that 177 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 3: Moses lucked out or was predestined to have an extraordinary 178 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: interaction with the world. Because for ages past around this 179 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: part of Earth, abandoned kids were often not foundlings. They 180 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 3: were often enslaved, and they actually, in the Roman Empire days, 181 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 3: they formed a significant part of the supply chain of 182 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: the Roman Empire's slave industry. 183 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: Yes, slaves or soldiers, right, I mean, you're automatically conscripted 184 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: now again, because of wartime interactions between families that would 185 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: get slaughtered and then some children that would be left. 186 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 3: Every horrible thing that you can possibly imagine happening to 187 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: someone in this situation did at some point occur. This 188 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 3: is very unclean stuff. But let's look at other empires 189 00:12:53,920 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 3: civilizations in India and China, they also had ancient adoption practices. Again, 190 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: they would seem very different to modern adoption practices because 191 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 3: in a lot of cases in those various civilizations, the 192 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: idea was to it was like insurance. The idea was 193 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 3: to guarantee that when you died, correct funeral rites would 194 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 3: be enacted. Someone would continue. Also spoiler alert, a male 195 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: heir specifically would be around to do the proper ancestor worship. 196 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: Fall of Rome leads to a decline in adoption in 197 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 3: Europe because, shout out to George R. R. Martin, the 198 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 3: dominant cultures that rose from the flotsam and jetsam of 199 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 3: the shipwrecked Roman Empire, those cultures in Europe, they put 200 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 3: so much importance on bloodlines, just like the ancient Egyptians. 201 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: Their thing was more incest is okay, you know, let's 202 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: keep it in the family. 203 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 4: Oh when you put it like that, ben gives out 204 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 4: a whole nother meaning, doesn't it. 205 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: Well, the thing is I'm saying, in contrast to ancient Rome, 206 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: and contrast to ancient civilizations in India or China, they 207 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: weren't they weren't adopting, they weren't hiring from outside the 208 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 3: network and. 209 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 4: By design, though, right, I mean, like to your point, 210 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 4: I mean, I was just saying, keeping it in the family 211 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 4: when you start talking about incests just makes it kind 212 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 4: of take on a little extra ick. But certainly the 213 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 4: insular nature of these civilizations and these types of governments 214 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 4: and powerful families. I mean that's well established. 215 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed. Now fast forward. There's a ton of other 216 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 3: stuff that happens. We're here in twenty twenty four. We 217 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 3: are coming to you from the United States. In the US, 218 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: the adoption process vary state by state. The laws in 219 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 3: Massachusetts may not be the same as the laws in Mississippi. 220 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 3: If you are adopting children from another country, you have 221 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: to abide by the laws and regulations of your child's 222 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 3: birth country, which I think makes sense. 223 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 5: I don't know, it's sure it does. 224 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: Well. 225 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: You have to abide by both laws, both sets of laws, right. 226 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: Adopting from another country is a whole other thing. 227 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. 228 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: Domestic adoption is the process of assuming the filial rights 229 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 3: and responsibilities for a kid who is in the same 230 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: country as you. Foster adoption is I think we're accurate 231 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: the way we put it. Foster adoption is not necessarily permanent. 232 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 3: It can evolve into a permanent adoption. International adoption is 233 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: when you assume those filial rights and responsibilities for a 234 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: kid from a different country, and typically those kids are 235 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 3: going to be in an orphanage. They may be in 236 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: foster care, they may have no real family support network. 237 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: It's not a mandatory part of the process for adoption, 238 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 3: but most people, the vast majority of families adopting a child, 239 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: will work with things we call adoption agencies. 240 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 4: Sure, and we have some friends and colleagues that have 241 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: gone through that process as well that we've witnessed. And 242 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 4: it is a lot of red tape, let's just say, yeah. 243 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: And many states have their own kind of systems for 244 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: that and agencies for that. 245 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: Yes, And even now in the United States, some of 246 00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 3: those let's call them brokers, brokering partners, facilitators, are heavily religious. 247 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 3: They're based in religion. Everybody's got their own spiritual system. 248 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: We just have to note that it is really important 249 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: to understand that. 250 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 4: Well, I think, whatever your views on religion might be, 251 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 4: it's important to acknowledge that there are religious organizations that 252 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 4: at their heart, you know, are out to do good 253 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 4: and to help people. 254 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, well said. And so we're saying there's a long, 255 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 3: at times astonishing history of human beings providing care for 256 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: children that might not otherwise get the one thing everyone deserves, 257 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: a decent shot at a life well lived. When everything 258 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 3: goes as it should. We bear witness to this fundamental 259 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 3: I'm not sure, something better than beauty. I'm not sure 260 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 3: what the right word is, but this fundamental, noble aspect 261 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: of the human experiment. Our question tonight what happens when 262 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 3: things go wrong? 263 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 4: We'll find out after a quick word from our sponsor. 264 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy, all right, doesn't always go 265 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: as planned? 266 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh of course, I don't know why, guys. I 267 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 2: woke up watching Jim Carrey videos. I had a bit 268 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 2: of a dream about him and some of the some 269 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: of the things that he has been talking about over 270 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: the past decade when he's you know, going and giving 271 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: a speech for an award show and award ceremony or 272 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: going on a talk show. 273 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 4: His kind of zen phase that he's sort of entered, right. 274 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's gone now towards a more religious thing 275 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 2: that I just don't know much about. But in that 276 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: time period at least he makes this beautiful point about 277 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: you know, who is the point of consciousness that believes 278 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: he's Jim Carrey and was playing the part of Jim 279 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 2: Carrey and all this stuff. And when you think about 280 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: just any of any of us, our identities, the things 281 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 2: we hold dear, the things we believe, the way we 282 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 2: feel about anything. It all is shaped by the human 283 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: beings that are around us, the thoughts that enter our brains, 284 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: the words that are said to us, the actions that 285 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: we observe. And when you take on these responsibilities through adoption, 286 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: you are you are taking the responsibility of shaping another consciousness, right, 287 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: I mean at the heart of it. And it's it's 288 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: as we've said, and Ben, you're just talking about trying 289 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,239 Speaker 2: to find the right word for what is that? What 290 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: is the how do you describe that process? Is it beautiful? 291 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 2: Is it astonishing? Like? What is that thing? And I 292 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,239 Speaker 2: don't have the right word for it. Besides, it's it's 293 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: a responsibility. That word responsibility. 294 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 4: It's all encompassing, is what it is, right, I mean, 295 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 4: it's everything. 296 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: You're shaping a life, absolutely, and unless you feel that 297 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: weight and you're prepared for that responsibility, as you said, 298 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: then it can go very wrong, and it can go 299 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: extremely wrong if there are about intentions somewhere along that path. 300 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, what we're saying here is there are ongoing, provable, 301 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 3: egregious problems with aspects of the adoption industry, especially on 302 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: a global level. A lot of these issues echo historical 303 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 3: instances of corruption and crime and conspiracy. These unclean things 304 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 3: often continue in the modern day. Let's talk about forced adoption, right, 305 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: that's the immediate dark side, right, Like back in the 306 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 3: evenings of the Roman Empire and Indian and Chinese civilizations 307 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: and honestly the world over. These kids didn't have a 308 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 3: right to consent, you know what I mean. The parents 309 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 3: didn't have the right to say, hey, it's okay to 310 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 3: adopt my kid. They were murdered in war, you know 311 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 3: what I mean. They were conquered by blood and treasure. 312 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: And one of the most I would argue, one of 313 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:12,239 Speaker 3: the most immediately recognizable recent examples of this is in 314 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: North America, in the United States, well the anglosphere overall, 315 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: arguably in the United States and in Canada, Native American children, right. 316 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. We talked recently, I think in Strange News about 317 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 4: an update to the story of these Native American schools, 318 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 4: or schools built in order to assimilate Native American children, 319 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 4: and just how many children died under tragic circumstances within 320 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 4: these institutions. For decades, the US government abducted thousands of 321 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 4: Native children and forced them into those boarding schools, where 322 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 4: the goal was to again assimilate them, strip them entirely 323 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 4: of their culture, their language, their customs, and essentially erase 324 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 4: their history entirely. This is a an organized attempt at 325 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 4: cultural erasure. At the peak of this era, there were 326 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 4: more than three hundred and fifty Native American boarding schools 327 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 4: across the United States, and this also took place in 328 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 4: a slightly different arrangement over in Canada. 329 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, it is. 330 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 2: It's crazy to think about three hundred and fifty different schools. 331 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: In my mind, at least when we were first learning 332 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: about this, I imagined a dozen, maybe a few dozen 333 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 2: schools that existed, like on the frontiers of wherever the 334 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: United States territory was expanding or something. But no, no, no, 335 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 2: this is three hundred and fifty different schools that were 336 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: doing the same process. 337 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 3: That we know about exactly terrifying. 338 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: Well, and we've just learned how many of these schools 339 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 2: had literally a makeshift graveyard, or using the word graveyard 340 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 2: is probably overstating it at a site as mass graves 341 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: of children that would just basically disappear not only from 342 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 2: their family when they were taken into one of these schools, 343 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 2: but now from all of history, because they died in 344 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: whatever circumstance while they're at the school, and now they're. 345 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 3: Just buried, right things, you know, not necessarily someone purposely 346 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 3: murdering these children. 347 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 5: But not necessarily disease. 348 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 3: Or lack of sanitation, right this. These programs also were 349 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: often we don't want to you know, step on any 350 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: crosses here, but they were often church led. They were 351 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 3: led by the Christian Church of some doctrine or denomination, 352 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: and they occurred in step with a larger push to 353 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 3: encroach upon tribal land through kinetic war, through insidious policies, 354 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 3: and as ever, breaking promises and treaties. 355 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 4: I mean, if anyone had a chance to see Killers 356 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 4: of the Flower Moon, you see how that assimilation and 357 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 4: was utterly taken advantage of in order to rob these 358 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 4: individuals of their tribal land and their wealth, especially in 359 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 4: areas where that land may have sat upon oil reserves 360 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 4: or other precious mining materials. Yeah. 361 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a great there's a great Netflix show I've 362 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 3: been watching recently, and I don't have a lot of 363 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 3: time to watch these things, but it's called Dark Winds. 364 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: Have you guys heard of this? 365 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 4: I saw it advertised. I'd like to check it out. 366 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 3: It's a banger. I've got to read the books it's 367 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 3: based on. But there's your concept of oil exploration or 368 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 3: resource extraction reminds me of this. It's just it's so 369 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: good anyway, a totally different thing. Most people nowadays in 370 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 3: the US know about these sins of the government. However, 371 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 3: you might be. You might be surprised learn there were 372 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 3: weaponized policies and initiatives created not to dance around this 373 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 3: idea of assimilation of forst adoption, but to do it 374 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 3: blatantly up front, on purpose. The Indian Adoption Project would 375 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 3: steal children from native families and purposely place them with 376 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 3: families they considered let's call it white enough, right. 377 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. 378 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 3: The thing is they're not orphans, they're not. They have parents, 379 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 3: and the parents were trying to get their kids back, 380 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 3: and in many cases they simply could not because the 381 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 3: system was rigged against them. It reminds me of not 382 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: to get too political, it reminds me of what's happening 383 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 3: in recent years with Russia and Ukraine. 384 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 2: I can only imagine it occurred a lot during the 385 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 2: years of the Crusades, where maybe you know Catholic armies 386 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 2: would roam through fine children and then assimilate them. 387 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a scary thing because also these folks, 388 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 3: we have to understand, are making a greater good argument. 389 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 3: They're saying, well, usually we guild the children. Now we're 390 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 3: doing something different. 391 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's it's like it's less on paper 392 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 4: horrifying than genocide, but kind of has a similar outcome. 393 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 3: Genocide with more steps. 394 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like psychological genocide in a way. It's it's 395 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 4: very bizarre and unclean, as you would say, Ben. 396 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, so say we all. We also know that in Australia, 397 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 3: which has its own intensely disturbing history with the people 398 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 3: who are already living in Australia for thousands of years, 399 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: and as well as in the United Kingdom, similar practices 400 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: of forced adoption occurred. Surprising to learn, perhaps that the 401 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 3: practice of forced adoption continued up until the nineteen seventies. 402 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 3: In Britain, we're talking two hundred and fifty thousand mothers 403 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: were forced to give up their children, not because they 404 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 3: were criminals, not because they did anything bad, but because 405 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 3: they were not married. They were single moms, and that 406 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 3: meant they could not be moms. 407 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: Yikes, I think, and it's shown in a couple of places. 408 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: You can look it up right now, that the anti 409 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: abortion movements within any country will often push rates of 410 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: adoption much higher. And it is often based on this 411 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: same kind of thing that was happening in Britain. 412 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 5: Where some. 413 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 2: What would you call it a more sure something was 414 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: violated right in the consummation of this child. So adoption 415 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 2: is the correct move, at least so say the prevailing 416 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: religious ideals. 417 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, most of these most of these families were 418 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 3: broken up with birth mothers who were under twenty four 419 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 3: and unmarried, and it does appear there was an active 420 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 3: conspiracy to pressure these young people into conforming. Right the 421 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 3: nail that stands out shall be hammered down, and that 422 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: the monarchy was doing that. Similar practices occur again in 423 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 3: cultures the world round. This is not a glasshouse situation, 424 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 3: never is. It's a glass planet. Most of the countries 425 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 3: are committing the same sins at some point around the 426 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 3: same time. What sixties nineteen sixties Chile, largely poor young 427 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 3: indigenous women are either forced to give up their biological 428 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 3: children or their children are stolen from them. This is 429 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 3: true right after childbirth. They told the mothers that the 430 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: kids died, and they just took the kids and then, 431 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 3: you know, just like in the US, they often sterilized 432 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 3: the birth mothers while they had them on the operating table. 433 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: There are so many other cases Argentina as well. We're 434 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 3: not gonna we're not going to explore that tonight, but 435 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 3: please do investigate the dirty war on your own, as 436 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 3: it's called. We have to understand that there are adoption conspiracies. 437 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: They are real and they are evil things that leads 438 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 3: us to the next related branch here, not just forced adoption, 439 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 3: but child abduction, human trafficking. We're going to pause for 440 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: a word from our sponsors. Please please please consider this 441 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 3: the disclaimer. We are going to talk about again unclean things. 442 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 4: And we're back. Yeah, let's just rip the band aid off. 443 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 4: Human trafficking. For many families in the West, international adoption 444 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 4: of a child, you know, can feel like a moral act, 445 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 4: you know, a moral imperative. As so often is noted, 446 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 4: the world is absolutely full of children who are not wanted, 447 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 4: are not loved, and do need help. Therefore, the question 448 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 4: kind of naturally arises, why should we create child when 449 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 4: we could save one that already exists, you know, perhaps 450 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 4: orphaned by a neglect, war, you know, living in war zones, 451 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 4: constantly at risk disease, any number of scenarios. What can 452 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 4: we do, as individuals with means to make a positive difference, 453 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 4: especially when it comes to helping a child in need, 454 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 4: rescuing a child, perhaps from a brutal situation. Unfortunately, though, 455 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 4: as often tends to be the case, where there are 456 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 4: good intentions and folks with means, there are often other 457 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 4: folks there to intercept that situation and twist it to 458 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 4: their own despicable ends. 459 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just I again, I hate to say this 460 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 3: because I know our job is to articulate things here, 461 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 3: but I don't have the words in this language to 462 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 3: describe situations where you see human children treated like stray dogs. 463 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 3: And that does happen, and it is an abomination. In 464 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: some cases, we may be talking about children who require 465 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 3: medical care that is simply beyond the reach of their 466 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 3: social structure, right or their biological family. And if you 467 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 3: adopt these kids, then you may be able to give 468 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 3: them the care and the treatment that they need. Again, 469 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 3: a noble imperative. There is no argument that in hundreds 470 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 3: of thousands, perhaps millions of cases. Adoptive families make an 471 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 3: enormous and positive difference for the world. However, again, it's 472 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: not always the case. You know, what if these children 473 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 3: are adopted by bad faith actors, What if these kids 474 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 3: already have parents, were those biological parents allowed to consent 475 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 3: to this adoption? 476 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: Well, as we said at the very top of the episode, 477 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 2: if you are choosing to go through the process of 478 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: international adoption, you're not only choosing to trust the agency 479 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: you're going through from whatever country you're in. You're also 480 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 2: choosing to trust the agency or the group or the 481 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: individuals on the other end of this weird bargain that 482 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: you're making, and you're trusting that they have good intentions 483 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: and they have taken actions that are correct through whatever 484 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: system they're operating under and through whatever laws that are 485 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: applicable there, and as well as just the moral stuff 486 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 2: like how is this child coming into this situation? 487 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 3: Yeah? What will this child remember? What will they recollect? 488 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,719 Speaker 3: And the main thing we have to note here is 489 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 3: that when these conspiracies occur, it's not it's almost never 490 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 3: the adoptive family. They are good faith actors. They are 491 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: you know, to your point, Noel, the idea of saying, hey, 492 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 3: why would we make a kid when we can help 493 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 3: one that already exists. We see time and time again 494 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 3: that people run into run into the wrong end of 495 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 3: the conspiracy. Here, there's a guy named David Smullen who 496 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 3: is the director of the Center for Children Law and 497 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 3: Ethics over at Sanford University. Back in nineteen ninety eight, 498 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:46,919 Speaker 3: the Smollen family adopted two children from India sisters, and 499 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 3: later they learned that these children were stolen from their 500 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 3: birth mother. I just I can't imagine the weight of 501 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: this tragedy, Like we're saying, nobody, I mean, maybe somebody, 502 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 3: maybe a billionaire or an emperor, adopts children on a whim, 503 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 3: But most people are treating this very seriously. And can 504 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 3: you imagine, you know, can you imagine what happens when 505 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 3: you learn that you have non consensually become the quote 506 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 3: unquote back guy. 507 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 2: That's an intense story. There's an NPR article you can 508 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: look up if you would like to to learn more 509 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 2: about this from July two thousand and seven titled an 510 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: Adoption Gone Wrong. That is just that's a harrowing tale. 511 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 4: There. 512 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 3: There's also something that comes up again and again the 513 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 3: idea of providing a human child with a family rather 514 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 3: than a life in an institution. You can read about, 515 00:35:53,640 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 3: for instance, certain circumstances during the Cold War, which hasn't 516 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 3: stopped there Like in countries that said AIDS doesn't exist. 517 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 3: Then children who were born with HIV were just raised 518 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 3: in institutions. They did not have the opportunity for the 519 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 3: formative care that fundamentally sort of makes a person a person. Like, 520 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 3: institutions are a bad place for a kid to grow up. 521 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 3: You know, if anybody here who has an office job, 522 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 3: imagine you were born in your office. You never got 523 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 3: to leave your office. You didn't have any parental figures. 524 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 3: You had like a boss, and you had you know, 525 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 3: an HR or something like that, or a bunch of 526 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 3: nuns or a bunch of really cartoonishly pissed off nuns, yeah, or. 527 00:36:58,800 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 2: Very sweet nuns. 528 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. Right, you're right, you're right, you're right. I'm being 529 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 3: a jerky you're right, man. 530 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 4: Well, you know, we've certainly talked about situations where the 531 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 4: church can do great good, facilitate great acts of charity 532 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 4: and kindness, and we've also certainly seen the flip side 533 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 4: of that where religious institutions can do great damage and 534 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 4: great harm, and it's great disservices to you know, innocence. 535 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, And when we talk about the dangers being raised 536 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 3: in an institution or a system versus a as our power, 537 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 3: Lauren would say, an actual facts family. We're not just 538 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 3: talking about psychological damage. We're not talking mental or cognitive 539 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 3: challenges alone. We're also talking about clearly traceable physical hazards 540 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 3: for these humans as they develop. You know, you can 541 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 3: read fascinating and intensely disturbing studies of the long term 542 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 3: post traumatic stress disorder, syndrome and related stuff that hits 543 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 3: people who, for instance, grow up as in a persecuted 544 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 3: minority demographic, or people who grow up in institutions. They're 545 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 3: going to have higher rates of heart disease, They're going 546 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 3: to have higher rates of diabetes. It's what we're saying 547 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 3: is that if you have the privilege and the ability 548 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 3: to adopt the kit to save an innocent person from 549 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 3: such a troubling thing, why would you not do it. 550 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 2: Let's jump really quickly, Ben, you found something about this 551 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 2: in particular that they're around or they're an estimated eight 552 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 2: million children growing up in some in some way like 553 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 2: this that you're describing, and that is an estimate from UNSEF, 554 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 2: originally the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund. 555 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 5: But this is. 556 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 2: It's mind boggling to imagine eight million children growing up 557 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 2: in something like at least what's described in the article 558 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 2: you found Ben, that Romanian boarding school of some sort, 559 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 2: where it's just children who have learned to not cry 560 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: because their cries are never attended to, so they're just silent, 561 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 2: and then the children grow up that way. Yeah, it's 562 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 2: pretty horrifying. 563 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 5: Really. 564 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,959 Speaker 3: Sometimes it seems that kids being adopted, as you said, Matt, 565 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 3: through these international brokers, maybe maybe products commodities they may 566 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 3: be sold. There is a vast there are multiple networks 567 00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 3: of conspirators that spend a great deal of time attempting 568 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 3: to appear legit, attempting to appear like, hey, we're an 569 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 3: Ngo or gong Go and we're helping because we, like you, 570 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 3: want these kids to have a better life. Also, let's 571 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 3: talk economics. 572 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 2: This is horrible, and I know I don't mean to 573 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 2: downplay the severity of this situation we're describing, but there's 574 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 2: so many parallels to the puppy mills industry that it exists, 575 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: and just then applying that to humanity, it's. 576 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 5: Just a whole other. 577 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 4: Level of evil. 578 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, the creatures doing these things do not differentiate between 579 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 3: a human being and a dog. 580 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 4: That's why it's such a good parallel, Matt, And you're 581 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 4: absolutely right as far as they're concerned, it's just a 582 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 4: business model that's more even probably even more lucrative. 583 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 3: Let's go back briefly to Chile. The provable conspiracy in 584 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 3: Chile involved multiple actors. Now that's the most difficult bar 585 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 3: for proving a genuine conspiracy. Multiple like a multi polar 586 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 3: network of people capable of not just keeping a secret, 587 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 3: but also successfully accomplishing a task. That's it's a very 588 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 3: difficult thing. It doesn't happen all the time. But in 589 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 3: Chile we're talking foster homes, hospitals, hotels, social workers, lawyers, judges, 590 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 3: diplomats all participating. And you can learn more about this 591 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,959 Speaker 3: by checking out the NGOs, the institutions that are now 592 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 3: dedicated to helping these abducted children learn more about their past. 593 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 3: The vice president of Connecting Routes, one of these organizations, 594 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 3: while Luis Insulza, he noted that people in groups who 595 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 3: parte anticipated in this criminal enterprise, this trafficking of children 596 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,720 Speaker 3: in Chile, they were under the protection of the Chilean state. 597 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 4: I mean, how much more twisted can you get? Whereas 598 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 4: the body that is meant to protect children, that is 599 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 4: meant to protect citizens is actually colluding, you know, with 600 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 4: bad actors against them. And we're certainly not naive. We 601 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 4: know this kind of stuff happens, you know, where there's 602 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 4: two faced individuals that are part of these governments that 603 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 4: are acting as though they're, you know, there for the 604 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 4: greater good, but in fact they're there for something entirely 605 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 4: different and much more insidious and self serving. 606 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a title for this, at least in the 607 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 2: United States law books, titled adoption deception as like a 608 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 2: specific type of conspiracy and crime that can be committed. 609 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 2: I was just looking at it specifically in Louisiana, guys, 610 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 2: because I was remembering some of these tales of adoption 611 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 2: agencies slash religious groups or at least front facing religious 612 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 2: groups that were that were taking children and abusing them. 613 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 2: And then there's there are multiple instances of popular culture 614 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 2: in television and film that you know, use these stories 615 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 2: as the basis of a fictional story. 616 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 5: That they're telling. 617 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:29,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, we see it in fiction because the truth exists, right, 618 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 3: because the nonfiction informs the explorations. And this is I 619 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 3: would say the folks creating that fiction are doing a 620 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 3: great service because they are informing the public, right, making 621 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 3: you think twice. When you get a letter from an 622 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 3: organization you've never heard of with an innocuous name, right 623 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 3: and somehow relates to religion, wants a little money from 624 00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 3: you might help you adopt a child. There's a magnitude 625 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 3: of crime here and people who in the case of Chile, 626 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 3: around the world, individuals and sometimes other adoption agencies were misled, 627 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 3: like you said, they were victims of adoption deception or 628 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:25,280 Speaker 3: deceived about the the origin of these kids. And let's 629 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 3: focus on the kids. These kids are humans. They grow up, 630 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 3: they have adventures, they live, they fall in love, you know, 631 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 3: and they have their ship and story and so on. 632 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,439 Speaker 3: And then imagine you are what's a good age, what's 633 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:41,720 Speaker 3: like a good human age? 634 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 5: Oh? 635 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 4: Goodness? 636 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 3: Like adult human? 637 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,359 Speaker 4: Oh I don't know, just say quintessential twenty one? 638 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 3: All right, Let's say you're twenty one years old, and 639 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 3: then you learn that not only like maybe you already 640 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 3: knew you were a child of adoption, but then you 641 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 3: learn that you're biolog logical parents have been trying to 642 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 3: reach you for twenty years and they've been searching for you, 643 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. That's scary, dude. 644 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 4: Well, it's also like so complicated because it's not the 645 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 4: fault of your adoptive parents, not at all. So then 646 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 4: you're put in the middle where it's like this really 647 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 4: complex range of emotions where you almost like resent your 648 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 4: adoptive parents even though they don't deserve that. And it's 649 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 4: like you even if you know that, it doesn't mean that. 650 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 4: Like I always say, like intellect and feelings are two 651 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 4: very different things, and it would just be such a 652 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 4: mind f you know. You know, yeah, And I couldn't 653 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 4: imagine being put in that situation. I don't know what 654 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 4: I would do or how it would feel. It's just 655 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 4: too fraud you know. 656 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,280 Speaker 3: Some boffins over at the United Nations back in twenty 657 00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:00,200 Speaker 3: twenty two argued that the entire practice of international adoption 658 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 3: should be discontinued. I'm not sure if I agree with that, 659 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 3: because again, it's a matter of saving lives. But they 660 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 3: said that elite what they call illegal intercuntry adoptions quote 661 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 3: may constitute serious crimes such as genocide or crimes against humanity. 662 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 2: Oh god, I think this is It's the same problem 663 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 2: the Boy Scouts of America faced when they were first founded. 664 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 2: Remember when we talked about that. The big problem they 665 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 2: had is that, just by the nature of the organization 666 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 2: dealing with children, you would get bad actors. Because it 667 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 2: was a voluntary system when you could join in to 668 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 2: be a Scout master, a Scout leader, or local person 669 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,879 Speaker 2: in the organization. Just by the nature of the thing, 670 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,840 Speaker 2: there would be some people that got into it for 671 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 2: the wrong reasons, or for terrifying reasons, or terrible reasons. 672 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 2: The same thing with some of these agencies and systems 673 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 2: that are being set up. You're going to have some 674 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 2: people who are going to be bad actors. How the 675 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 2: heck do you defend you know, especially if you're talking 676 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 2: about a massive organization, how do you defend it against 677 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 2: something like that? 678 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't have the answer. 679 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 3: I don't know if anyone does. You know, that's the thing. 680 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 3: These conspiracies are real. Do not forget that. We also 681 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 3: keep in front of mind the parents. To your point, Noel, 682 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 3: they're not in on some kind of grift. These are 683 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 3: not kissingers, they're not war criminals, they're not monsters. They 684 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 3: are by and large super good parents. They are They 685 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 3: just are they are. 686 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 2: But we cannot dismiss some of the other parts of 687 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 2: adoption and foster care that we've seen where there are 688 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 2: abusive relationships on the parents side, and again that is 689 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 2: we have to be able to look at individual cases, right, 690 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 2: and there are many individual cases where the children are 691 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,760 Speaker 2: specifically adopted and moved into a system with the abusive 692 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 2: parents that are on some kind of mission of their 693 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 2: own of whatever they're doing. 694 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 3: Right, with very little oversight, even in what we would 695 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 3: call quote unquote developed countries. And that's part of why 696 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:26,359 Speaker 3: we're saving the foster care episode, which candidly is going 697 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 3: to be going to be difficult. Let's end on this 698 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 3: this positive note. There are good parents, right, and every 699 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 3: kid deserves a chance. And if you suspect you are 700 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 3: a loved one, maybe in a situation involving abduction or 701 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:49,720 Speaker 3: trafficking or bad faith actors in the realm of international adoption, 702 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 3: don't hesitate to reach out. Weirdly enough, there are for 703 00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,839 Speaker 3: most countries that you can imagine there is some sort 704 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,400 Speaker 3: of NGO that will attempt to help you. If you 705 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 3: believe an adoption agency in the US or abroad may 706 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 3: be involved in criminal activity, report the agency to law enforcement. 707 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 3: Do not hesitate to do so, because the worst that 708 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 3: will happen is if that agency is legit, they'll have 709 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,240 Speaker 3: to provide some paperwork, They'll have to do a couple 710 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:24,120 Speaker 3: extra emails. 711 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 4: Right. 712 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,839 Speaker 3: I think that's a very easy cost benefit calculus. Absolutely, 713 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,760 Speaker 3: And if you are one of the millions of families 714 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 3: who has adopted a child, if you were one of 715 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 3: the millions of people who grew up in an adoptive family, 716 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 3: please remember you've already made the world a better place. 717 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,560 Speaker 3: Thank you for tuning in. This is only the beginning, 718 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,360 Speaker 3: as we were saying, of a larger conversation, we would 719 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 3: love to hear from you. Stay tuned for our future 720 00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 3: episode on the foster care system, Be safe and reach 721 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 3: out to us online. That's a weird segue for such 722 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:05,880 Speaker 3: a heavy episode. 723 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, we'd love to hear positive stories. 724 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, they were right. 725 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:11,919 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that would be something really nice 726 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 2: to share on one of our listener mail episodes. 727 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 5: So if you've got a positive. 728 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 2: Story, email us, call us, hit us up on social 729 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 2: media and we'll tell you how to do that. 730 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 4: That's right. You can find us all over the internet 731 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,880 Speaker 4: at the handle of Conspiracy Stuff, where we exist, on Facebook, 732 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,120 Speaker 4: where you can join in on the conversation in our 733 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 4: Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy. Also on YouTube 734 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 4: where we have a video content galore for you to enjoy, 735 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 4: and x fka Twitter, on Instagram and TikTok. However, we 736 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,840 Speaker 4: are Conspiracy Stuff Show. 737 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 2: Our phone number is one eight three three std WYTK. 738 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,960 Speaker 2: When you call in, it's a voicemail system. Give yourself 739 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know in the message 740 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:56,360 Speaker 2: if we can use your name and message on the air. 741 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 2: It's three minutes. So if you've got more to say 742 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 2: than can fit in a three minute voicemail, why not 743 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,400 Speaker 2: instead shoot us a good old fashioned email. 744 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,880 Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence 745 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:13,399 Speaker 3: we receive, be aware yet unafraid. Sometimes the void writes back, 746 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 3: We'd love to hear from you. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 747 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,520 Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production 748 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,879 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. 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