1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: seger In. Today we're talking about a topic that most 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: science podcast listeners would think, Wait, what why? Alien abductions? 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: Really you guys are going to take that seriously? Well, 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: I think the tone is the question, right, because a 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of science brands will discuss alien abduction, 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: but they'll take a very hard, skeptical approach, And certainly 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: science is the bedrock of the show, and I feel 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: like we we tend to take a skeptical approach with 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: most topics. Now that being said, we always try and 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: make a point of of acknowledging that with paranormal experience, 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: there's still some sort of an experience going on. There 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: is off some sort of a memory, there's something something 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: that goes on in the human psyche that makes it 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: quasi real or real for the individual, and so we 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: always make a point of trying to honor that and 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: and respect that as much as possible while also keeping 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: you know, one foot firmly planted on the earth. Yeah, exactly, 21 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: And alien abduction is similar to some of the other 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: topics we've covered before, like say, uh, satanic panic and exorcisms, demons, angels, 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: also like the stuff that we did with John d. 24 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: And what's interesting to look at here is that there 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: is a quantifiable large amount of academic research into this topic. 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: It's it's actually interesting. Um. One of the pieces that 27 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: I looked at for this episode is by someone named J. D. Finkelstein, 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: and they basically look at a review of all the 29 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: academic literature in the last like, let's say, thirty five years. 30 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: And the thing that's interesting is they said, there's really 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: not that much available by me, like there is too 32 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: much to read for this episode. There was so much 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: out there. I mean I just saw in all the 34 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: research databases that we have access to, there's just wall 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: to wall uh information and really like what we put 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: together for this, it's gonna fill up probably two episodes, yes, yeah, 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: because because there are basically two large categories we have 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: to discuss. On one hand, there is the the the 39 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: experience side of it. So individuals claiming to have experienced 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: an alien abduction and generally in the process have seen 41 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: a UFO as well, uh, and they are so they're 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: all the various ways we can try and understand that 43 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: from a skeptical standpoint, you know what sort of hallucinations 44 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: or memory um false memory scenarios are going on to 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: make that possible, the power of belief, et cetera. And 46 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: then on top of that, there's this cultural idea too, 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: because you can you can certainly we'll get into this 48 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: more as we progress here, but you can go back 49 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: through history. You can find plenty of examples of individuals 50 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,119 Speaker 1: having um wondrous or tariff and some often sexual encounters 51 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: with demons, angels, ferries, what have you. But it's only 52 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century and a little bit beyond here 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: that we have had these experiences with extraterrestrials and UFOs. 54 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: So then he starts saying, well, okay, if this is 55 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: just the coding is this, if this is just the 56 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: sock puppet that we end up putting over this abnormal 57 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: sensory experience, then where does the sock puppet come from? 58 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: What are all the various cultural threads that come together 59 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: to weave that unique form. Yeah, it is. It's fascinating 60 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: when you look at it from that perspective, and it's 61 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: still fascinating. I think even if you, like some researchers, 62 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: think you've totally nailed it down and you've figured out 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: exactly how to explain what's happening here right Um. And 64 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that even though we've got all this 65 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: fiction that really kind of slowed down I'd say a 66 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: little bit before two thousand, um, right around when the 67 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: X file started to fade. Uh, you know, we have 68 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: all this this alien abduction fiction that was really big 69 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: X Files, Close Encounters, etcetera. Um. Fire in the Sky, 70 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: which neither of us have seen you, but I'm planning 71 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: to check out before we do our trailer talk. Yeah, 72 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: that's what I want to watch before next week. In communion, 73 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: I've never seen either, have you seen that? I have not, 74 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm familiar with I haven't read the book either, but 75 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: I'm I'm familiar with his story. I've read I want 76 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: to say, I read an Atlantic piece about him a 77 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 1: couple years back. But so there was a lot going 78 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: on between the probably like mid seventies up until the 79 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: end of the nineties that was in our entertainment about this. 80 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: So we all kind of think we know what this 81 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: is all about. We we we understand the alien abduction narrative. Yeah, 82 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: I remember as a kid watching a lot of Unsolved 83 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: Mysteries and uh, you know a lot of those episodes 84 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: that dealt with just unsolved normal crimes, and occasionally Matthew 85 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: McConaughey showed up right to reenact it. But they would 86 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: get into these supernatural elements and they would get into 87 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: alien abductions, and I remember just being um like terrified 88 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: and amazed by these tales because they presented them in 89 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: that kind of like hard boiled detective narrative way, where's like, 90 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: this is this is really happening. We don't understand it, 91 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: but this is what these people say happened to them. 92 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: And it made me. It made me kind of terrified 93 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: as to sleep at night for a while, because I 94 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: would imagine the aliens coming for me. I would I 95 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: would get a little nervous if I stared up into 96 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: the night sky too much, because it would be like, 97 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: all right, if I glimpse them, they'll know I saw them, 98 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: and then they will come for me. They're like, all right, well, 99 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: you forced our hands. Now we've got to abduct you. 100 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but I've never been 101 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: susceptible to the scary factor of alien abduction. Yeah, like 102 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: when you didn't did you watch and solve mysteries? Because 103 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: I did. But like, I think that there was a 104 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: part of me, even at that age that was kind 105 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 1: of like, whatever happens, it's going to be pretty interesting. 106 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: It's interesting. Like like, and I guess too that I 107 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: was so immersed in Star Wars and Star Trek and 108 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: other science fiction that my mind wouldn't allow me to 109 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: go to the really horrific areas that alien abduction narratives 110 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: go to, right, Like I see a movie like what 111 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: was it, Dark Skies that came out like two or 112 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: three years ago, I think that was like maybe the 113 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: latest of these kind of horror movies, or that there 114 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: was one recently, the Phoenix Incident. I think it's like 115 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: a found footage one. Yeah, And then there was one 116 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: that came out a few years back, um, the Fifth Kind, 117 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: I want to say, Okay, yeah, And those have never 118 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: really resonated with me in the way. So, for instance, 119 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: the Demon Possession movies do right, And that's because I think, 120 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: like the way that my cultural background was set up, 121 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: that narrative was far scarier to me. Even though that 122 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: narrative could be placed on top of similar psychological experiences, 123 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: right in the way that alien abduction narratives are. Yeah, 124 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, I guess it just really depends on how 125 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: you approach you, like, what your background and the culture is, 126 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: because certainly, growing up in rural Tennessee in the nineties, 127 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: I I've discussed before how there was definitely this this 128 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: this sense within certain circles that the demons were real, 129 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: that that the supernatural realm was real within the confines 130 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: of sort of fundamentalist Christian upbringing. But then at the 131 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: same time you were there were these voices of you know, 132 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: I want to say, you know, more scientifically sound, reasonable 133 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: voices that filter through into into stuff like unsolved mysteries, 134 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: and you watch that and you're saying, Okay, well, you know, 135 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: this seems like it could be true as well. So 136 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: it just I guess it depends on like where you're 137 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: firmly entrenched. Yeah, And so for that reason, I think 138 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: it's important for us to start off here with just 139 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: a bare bones basic description of what we're talking about 140 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: here with alien abductions. So, and alien abductions specifically is 141 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,559 Speaker 1: when a person claims to have been taken by any 142 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: being from outside Earth against their will, and these surged 143 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties and then waned through the years 144 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: with the expansion of space technology and exploration. But you 145 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: have to be clear here, there's no physical evidence that 146 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: supports claims of alien abduction or even that extraterrestrial intelligence exists. Now, 147 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: skeptics say that these reports are either hallucinations or their lies. 148 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: On the other side of it, some scientists have attributed 149 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: these experiences to sleep paralysis or repressed trauma. And this 150 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: is probably a good point where we should say that 151 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: our sibling podcast Stuff They Don't Want You to Know, 152 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 1: has covered this extensively over the years. So if there's 153 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: other stuff you want to look for, podcasts also videos, 154 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: they've done a lot of videos. Yeah, it's kind of 155 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: bread and butter right exactly now. Before those of you 156 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: out there, and I felt the same way when I 157 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: was going to the research. Get too judgmental about our 158 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: friends and neighbors out there who have experienced this. I 159 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: want to throw a couple of stats at you that 160 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: you might find surprising. A twenty National Geographic poll found 161 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: that seventy seven percent of Americans believe that aliens have 162 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: visited Earth, so that's huge, and eighty percent believe that 163 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: alien life exists on other planets. A twenty fifteen IPSOS 164 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: poll found that fifty six percent of Americans believe in UFOs. 165 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: So either way you cut that, it's the majority of people. 166 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: Now for me, I guess like I fall on that, 167 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: Like I don't know if aliens have visited Earth or not, 168 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean we do the science podcast. We 169 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: talk about the possibilities of alien life all the time. 170 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: If I had to like vote one way or the other, 171 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: I would probably say yes, Yeah, I tend to fall 172 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: the same way. I think, well, yes, that's given what 173 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: we know of of life and based on the research 174 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: that we've we've done and the sources we've looked at, uh, 175 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: it seems entirely possible that there's life out there in 176 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: the universe somewhere. Now it gets a little more complicated 177 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: from there on out, because then you say, well, okay, 178 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: if there's life, then is it intelligent life? And then uh, 179 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: and you can say, all right, well, based on our model, yeah, 180 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: you can tweak the Drake equation in different ways. Look 181 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: at could could this intelligent life form actually evolve? And 182 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: then is it still around Okay, so maybe there's it's 183 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: not just a slime mold on another planet. Maybe there's 184 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: something out there that's capable of looking up into the 185 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: night sky and forming its own um anxiety ridden dreams 186 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: of visitations from other worlds. But then that visitation becomes 187 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: the next realm. Right, is it possible that this, this creature, 188 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: this alien life is capable of visiting our world? And 189 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: in this we get into an area we discussed a 190 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: little bit in our Interplanetary War episode, because even if 191 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: space faring aliens do exist, could they reach us? And 192 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: part of the problem here is distance staggering in the 193 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,239 Speaker 1: interstellar distance and the lack of any concrete, proven technological 194 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: means to traverse those distances at a reasonable pace. Even 195 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: the more conservative estimates, and like the closer you know, 196 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: planetary homeworlds or out bases for for some sort of 197 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: civilization like this, it would still result in a trip 198 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: of years. Right, And if they did have spacecraft capable 199 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: of performing the sort of highs, the high speed maneuvers 200 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: that are described in UFO sightings, then physicist Michio Kaku 201 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: insists that technology for such a craft and the ability 202 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: for a living passenger to survive, it's g forces. Well, 203 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: those are well beyond humanities modern technology as well. So 204 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: do you think that they've visited Earth? Then like that's 205 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: a that's sort of are they capable of visiting Earth? No? Right, yeah, 206 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: and then would they want to or have that? Yeah? Well, 207 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: I mean if I mean, if you get to the 208 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: point where you say, yes, they exist, yes they're intelligent, 209 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: Yes they have spacecraft capable of visiting us, then we 210 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: again we come back to basing. We have to base 211 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: an alien life form more or less on how we 212 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: think and behave, and we know that we would want 213 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: to check them out, so they would probably want to 214 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: check us out. So yeah, I can, I can buy 215 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: into that, but it's coming over that that technological step, 216 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: that technological leap that is required, it's hard hard to 217 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: get past. Yeah, that's kind of where you get to that. Uh. 218 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: I guess I'm thinking along the lines of independence day 219 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: rather than communion, Right, So, like we jump to the 220 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: point of like where we've imagined a society that has 221 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: the technology, but all we can picture is ourselves. So 222 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: then subsequently we we apply our own reasoning this connect 223 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: BacT as fall Bard, this fall Bard episode, we do 224 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago. Why would we go there 225 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: to exploit its resources? Right? Uh? So, I mean, but 226 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: we would love to think otherwise, right, like that they 227 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: they just want to communicate or do experiments on us. 228 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: But but the thing is, we come back around to 229 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: the proof. Right, if they've if they've visited the planet 230 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: in the past or are visiting it now, where is 231 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: the hardcore proof? And uh And likewise, if they've abducted 232 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: people for experiments, where's the proof? Because from a scientific standpoint, 233 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: there's just insufficient evidence to make a case for alien visitation. 234 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: I'm not saying there aren't people out there that are 235 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: attempting to provide evidence, but most UFO sidings depend on 236 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,479 Speaker 1: infallible human accounts, imperfect footage, and just rampant conspiracy theory. 237 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: All of it tends to crumble under the scrutiny of 238 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: the scientific method. And and that's our best way of 239 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: determining what's reality and what is ultimately fantasy. And uh. 240 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: And also it's it's worth reminding everyone that you know, 241 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: scientific inquiry hinges on something called the null hypothesis, which 242 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: means the burden of proof is on anyone making a 243 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: positive claim. So if you say a dog gate your homework, great, 244 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: where's the testable evidence you saw an alien spacecraft? Excellent, 245 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: let's test and validate your story. So, in other words, 246 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: it's up to individuals who have seen the UFO. It's 247 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: up to individuals who have experienced the abductions or buy 248 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: into these stories. It's up to them to provide the proof, 249 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: and we just don't have it, you know, along the 250 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: same lines as an hypothesis, the scientific world doesn't go 251 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: on the defense every time someone sees a ghost, even 252 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: at the presence of testable evidence. Perfectly. Terrestrial claims demand 253 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: rigorous testing and a high degree of certainty and the results. 254 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: So I guess to put a cap in our position 255 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: going into this episode looking at the research. You know, 256 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: as I've said in the past, when we've talked about 257 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: sort of paranormal phenomenon and then try to shed a 258 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: scientific light on them. I may not believe in this, 259 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: but I believe that the people who believe are being honest. 260 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: I believe they believe. And uh, It's important to note 261 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: that most of the research has focused on attempts that 262 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: are either trying to prove or disprove the existence of aliens. 263 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: Rather than what's actually going on. What what makes us 264 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: want to focus on this is that it's an opportunity 265 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: to learn about our own psychology, right, That's what's really 266 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: interesting about the alien abduction narrative. And I wanna put 267 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: in a quote here that's from that J. D. Finkelstein 268 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: piece that I read for this. They said, in the end, 269 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: while the events abductees report are unlikely to have occurred, 270 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: the earnestness with which they endorse these memories is a 271 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: strong indicator that memory is a malleable and complicated phenomenon 272 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: with implications for a wide range of psychological topics. That 273 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: alone seems like it begs for stuff to blow your 274 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: mind to examine it. Yeah, every time I engage with 275 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: this topic or topics like this, I'm always left with 276 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: with the realization that approaching this kind of thing from 277 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: a skeptical, scientific, but open minded point of view, you 278 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: end up leaving the topic not feeling like you're you 279 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: have a safe distance from it, you know, like you 280 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: have a safe distance from an alien abduction experience touching 281 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: your life. You end up realizing, oh, well, it's actually 282 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: not that far away anyway. When you take into account 283 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: all of the all of the various psychological events that 284 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: can play into it, like the the basic, the basic reality, 285 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: that perception of reality is its own form of hallucination. 286 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: When you start counting all of that in and just 287 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: how how easily memory can be manipulated by yourself or others, 288 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: then you realize, oh, well, I'm not safe from this 289 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: kind of experience. It could it could easily, It could 290 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: easily happen under the right scenarios. Yeah. Absolutely, Actually, in 291 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: preparation for this episode, I revisited one of my favorite 292 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: X Files episodes, uh, jose Chung's from Outer Space, which 293 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: if if nobody out there is seeing it, I highly recommend. 294 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: Even if you've never seen any X Files, you don't 295 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: need to. It's in season three, uh right, smack in 296 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: the middle. I think it doesn't connect to any other episodes. 297 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: It's written by Darren Morgan, who, in my opinion, is 298 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: one of the best writers of the show ever, and 299 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: it is a fantastic but also relatively amusing examination of 300 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: a lot of what we're going to talk about here today. 301 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: And they look at it from that perspective that, like 302 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: human psychology and how we perceive the world is so 303 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: inherently skewed that there's a lot of different ways to 304 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: take a look at this, and in the in the 305 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: episode itself, there's sort of like three or four different 306 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: viewpoints of the alien abduction narrative, right, and like how 307 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: it could play out. I don't want to say too 308 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: much more than that, other than that it's I love it. 309 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: It's a fantastic episode, and it has a Jessie the 310 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: Body venture and it too. Why I was hoping you'd 311 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: get a chance to check out because he's sort of 312 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: a surprise figure that pops up as he shows up 313 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: as a man in black. All right, well, maybe I'll 314 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: get to watch it for next week. Yeah, that'd be cool. 315 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: I think it's time for a visitation of our own 316 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: here though. We should probably take a quick commercial break, 317 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we will dive into the topic. 318 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: We'll start talking about some of the recurring elements of 319 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: the sort of standardized alien abduction UH experience, and then 320 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: go from there. Sounds good than all right, we're back, 321 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: so let's get into the recurring elements. And now this 322 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: is one of the fascinating things for somebody like myself, 323 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: who's you know, I've seen a lot of X files. 324 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: I thought I kind of knew everything, you know, that 325 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: there was to know, but like, really looking at the 326 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: homework here, there are parts of the recurring elements that 327 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: I wasn't quite aware of. Well, one of the interesting 328 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: things here is that you kind of have two levels 329 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: and they're not they're not isolated from each other. So 330 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: you have what people began reporting about alien abduction scenarios 331 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: across the decades, and then you have what was portrayed 332 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: in the media and in science fiction. And then the 333 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: media portrayals begin to influence the experience, so it becomes 334 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: a little messy there. But it's like a weird or 335 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: a borrows that's like eating itself. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Well, 336 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: all right, let's go down. Here's some bullet points just 337 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: about like what are recurring elements that we're going to 338 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: unpack so that we can get a sense of what's 339 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: actually happening here. Now, alien abduction stories usually involve the 340 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: alien abductor conducting experiments or other procedures on the abductive Okay, 341 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: that's one that we all pretty much know, right. They 342 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: usually occur in an isolated area, with very few cases 343 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: involving more than one person being reported. Now that's interesting because, 344 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: as we'll talk about later, the very first big case 345 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: of this involved two people, but usually they involve people 346 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: on their own. They usually begin with the sighting of 347 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: a UFO or some kind of lights in the sky, 348 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: and then most report it's involved an individual being placed 349 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: in a trance like state while they're being experimented on. Now, 350 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: some people report that the the exams and stuff like 351 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: that that happens in their homes rather than on a 352 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: ship or something like that. Here's one of the things 353 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: I always had a problem with with with these explanations. 354 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: The assumption is that you're taken into outer space when 355 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: this happens, right, But I always thought, well, what that 356 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: seems like a lot of work for the aliens. Wouldn't 357 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: they just stay in orbit or stay like stay within 358 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: the atmosphere somewhere, you know what I mean? Like like 359 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: it seems like why do they have to fly all 360 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: the way down and all the way back up again? 361 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: Well two answers. If I'm gonna go with just the 362 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: straight up sort of skeptical technological uh profile here, I 363 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: would say, well, their ships are apparently crazy powerful anyway, 364 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: able to grip around it unbelievable speeds, So going back 365 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: into orbit for them is no big deal. Maybe if Yeah, 366 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: the other side of this would be that you look 367 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: back at these past paranormal experiences and what one has 368 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: taken to the fairy realm. One is one sends into 369 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: heaven and therefore this this matches up more with their 370 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: mythological expectations for visitation. Right, absolutely, So that's why I 371 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: think it's maybe more surprising when it occurs in the home, 372 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: right that that's like less along the lines of what 373 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: we're expecting. But then again, when the angel visited Mary 374 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: in the Bible, it was just in the home. She 375 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: didn't get to go visit orbit or heaven. Hey man, 376 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: that was a one of a kind thing. Uh. Look though, 377 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: other common factors that show up in these narratives are 378 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: beams of light, and the beams of light can both 379 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: paralyze and make you float, as well as abductors, implanting devices, 380 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: collecting tissue samples, and as we know, probing orifices using 381 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: strange machines. Now, some people also report psychological experiments related 382 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: to memory or pain. Now, this is that was one 383 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: thing that I had never heard of before. So that's interesting, 384 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: and then once the procedures are done, the abductees are 385 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: usually returned home. Now, the aliens are usually described as 386 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: small figures with smooth, shiny skin, large heads, and bulging eyes. 387 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: This is the similar gray aliens that were depicted in 388 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: early science fiction films. And there's a hierarchy that's sometimes 389 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: described between the aliens, where the small ones perform menial 390 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: work while the large ones are the leaders. They are 391 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: usually said to communicate telepathically. Now, of course, Robert and I, 392 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: one of the first things that we started talking about 393 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: when we were prepping this episode was, gosh, I guess 394 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: it's two years old now, maybe that Saturday Night Live 395 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: uh skit with Kate McKinnon and Ryan Gosling. Uh. They're 396 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: they're playing alien abductees who are explaining their experience to 397 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: like the Pentagon or something like that, and they have 398 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: vastly different experiences, right, Yeah, Like most of them have 399 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: this pleasant, hippie dippy kind of experience and then one 400 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: of them has this more traumatic experience with the aliens. Yeah, 401 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: and it's it's sort of explained in the narrative of 402 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: the skit that it's because there's different hierarchies of aliens, right, 403 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: Like there's the larger leader aliens and then there's the 404 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: smaller aliens. And I believe the way that Kate McKinnon 405 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: refers to it was that she wasn't dealing with the 406 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: top brass, which is always amusing to me when I 407 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: watched that. It's a great skip because Ryan Gosling is 408 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: having extreme difficulty holding it together the entire So back 409 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: to this, though, the victims, they don't seem to immediately 410 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: recall their experiences. This is an important part, right, So 411 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: my assumption was was always like, well, you just kind 412 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: of like wake up in bed and you're like, WHOA, 413 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: I was abducted by aliens, right, But it's not actually 414 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: along those lines. It's usually you don't recall what happens. 415 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: You notice that you've lost a chunk of time from 416 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: your memories, and then you start experiencing panic attacks, stomach pains, 417 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: or psychological distress afterward, and then it's because of those 418 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: symptoms that you start kind of looking inward and why 419 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: am I feeling like this? So sometimes people don't realize 420 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: they've been well, they don't come to the realization of 421 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: their abduction until after treatment. And and this is usually 422 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: in the form of hypnosis us Now, abductees often experience 423 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: a range of maladies, both physical and psychological, and this 424 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: leads them to go consult a mental health professional, and 425 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: that can include anything from anxieties to phobia's, nightmares, aches 426 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: and pains, and as we mentioned earlier, the missing time thing. 427 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes victims don't know what happened to them. So it's 428 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: not like they visit this person and they say, I 429 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: know that this is an alien thing. I just need 430 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: you to confirm it, right. Usually they're they're terrified because 431 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: they're like, am I having some kind of brain event? 432 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: You know? But you know, you can imagine a certain 433 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: amount of self diagnosis going on here as well, where 434 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: you're you have some sort of symptom. That's if it's 435 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: not completely unexplainable, then at least it's it's bothersome, it's 436 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: causing some anxiety, and then you start casting around for 437 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: some sort of of an explanation. Now, maybe, you know, 438 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: for the modern listener, you go to web m D 439 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: or something and you start looking at symptoms and driving 440 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: yourself crazy that way. But you could also very easily 441 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: go to an alien abduction reddit, bore do or a 442 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: message board of some kind, or watch an episode of 443 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: Unsolved Mysteries back in their anything to start thinking, oh 444 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: my goodness, what maybe this is what happened to me, 445 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: or another like paranormal narrative like ghosts or angels visited. 446 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: What you know, It really depends on kind of what 447 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: fits your cultural world view. Yeah, if the if the 448 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: soil is fertile for that idea to really grow. Okay, so, 449 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: and another thing that I didn't realize, and this seems 450 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 1: really important, is that most abductees report the experience as 451 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: being positive. They see it as a life changing thing. 452 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: In fact, Susan Clancy, who's somebody we're going to cite 453 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: a lot in this episode. She wrote a book in 454 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven about the phenomenon, and she found 455 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: that it's often related to humans need to believe in something. 456 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: She says, quote people go through life trying on belief 457 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: systems for size. Some of these belief systems speak to 458 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: powerful emotional needs that have little to do with science. 459 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: The need to feel less alone in the world, the 460 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: desire to have special powers or a bill of these, 461 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: the longing to know that there's something out there, something 462 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: more important than you, that's watching over you. For many people, 463 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: belief in alien abduction gratifies spiritual hungers. It reassures them 464 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: about their place in the universe and their own significance. Now, 465 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: one abductee actually said to her in the interviews, said 466 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: he at the experience made him realize he wasn't alone 467 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: in the universe, and that there were beings out there 468 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: who cared about him, and that getting to that point 469 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: was a really arduous journey. It was like a hero's 470 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: journey for for this person, because there were a lot 471 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: of people along the way who wanted to deny his experience. Yeah, 472 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: I think these are very important points because on on 473 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: one hand, yeah, everyone wants to be a part of 474 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: a just a human community. And and what brings a 475 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: community more together more than than shared beliefs. So if 476 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: you can you can find people that that also say, yeah, 477 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,239 Speaker 1: I think this is really happening. This happened to me. 478 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: It brings you together. And then on the other hand, 479 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: people want to believe in something, you know, bigger than themselves. 480 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: They want to they want some sort of a spiritual model. 481 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: But there's often this, uh, the problem of proof. How 482 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: do you how do you really cement that belief. And 483 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: you know, there's a whole argument that the witchcraft persecutions 484 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: of the past a lot of that. But I've talked 485 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: about this in the show before. The author Walter Stevens 486 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: goes into it in his book of titled Demon Levers, 487 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: where he talks about witchcraft persecution being largely away for 488 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: individuals within the church with a conflict of faith to 489 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: be able to say, look, here's physical proof of the supernatural, 490 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: because this witch had sex with a demon, and the 491 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: demons are real and so are angels. So if you 492 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: have been saying if if you've been experimented upon by 493 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: an alien, that's your your experience. And certainly if you 494 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: have you know, you can point your arm and say 495 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: like this, I think there's a chip under here, then 496 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: you can this is physical proof. This is your physical 497 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: proof of something greater than yourself, of this essentially a 498 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: ritual world you have connection to. And ultimately, what's the difference, 499 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: what's the difference between the stigmata and uh, you know, 500 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: the scar of the microchip and plant that you believe in. Yeah, 501 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: that's a really good point, right, and I think it 502 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: speaks to a larger thing that we're gonna get into 503 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: further down the road here, but just that we are 504 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: at a point in time where religion and government and 505 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: family and they're not necessarily as communally universal as they 506 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: used to be, right, And so subsequently we find ourselves 507 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: turning to other avenues for that human desire for belief, 508 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, uh stigmata, whether it's video games, 509 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: whether it's a fandom, right, Like, there's all manner of 510 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: things to find your version of community in, right, and 511 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: I think this can fall into that. But how does 512 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: that compare to other paranormal events then, well, you know, 513 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: we we've brought up the episode that we did a 514 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: while back on Satanic panic in the satanic ritual abuse situation. Yeah, 515 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think there's a there's a 516 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: lot of there are a lot of connecting threads there, 517 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: and really, alien abduction is so much better something you 518 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: can instally Such are more positive uh fiction to layer 519 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: over your your your mind because you're not victimizing anybody, 520 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: like you're not pointing at another human and saying other 521 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: than yourself. Right, Yeah, And I can see where in 522 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: certain models that could take on a harmful um a 523 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: harmful form, but yeah, you're not you're not making legal 524 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: charges of of abuse against somebody. You're, if anything, you're 525 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: you're accusing aliens of physical abuse. Yeah, this immediately made 526 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: me recall no pun intended the book Michelle remembers from 527 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: the seventies, which we talked about in their Satanic Panic episode, 528 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: that this was like, this was a thing going into 529 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: the eighties, like recalling memories that had been repressed. Right, 530 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: and as we learned then and we're gonna learn through here, 531 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: sometimes those called memories weren't necessarily real. Now along those lines, 532 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 1: there is a historical trajectory of the alien abduction experience. 533 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: The reports really seemed to be marked by the nineteen 534 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: forties and nineteen fifties golden age of science fiction is 535 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: right in the US, and it was very popular due 536 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: to the dawn of the space age. I'm speaking of 537 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: the science fiction stuff, not of the alien abductions. Also, 538 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: we have to remember the Roswell incident, which we now 539 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: sort of think of it as being this fantastical thing 540 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: that's connected to TV shows. It was a real thing 541 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: that happened in New Mexico in nineteen seven, So that 542 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: panicked people as well. Uh, this grew into the nineteen 543 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: sixties and then afterwards, hundreds of thousands of people have 544 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: reported being abducted. That's important, Like when I think of this, 545 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: I think like there's probably like a hundred people out there. 546 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: It's way more than that. Like, this is a way 547 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: more common experience than you would think. Now. Of course, 548 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: with then that, we're talking about the self reports of 549 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: paranormal varience. So within that community, like you have to ask, well, okay, 550 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: how many people are just straight up making it up. 551 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: How many people are in that weird area where they're 552 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: they're kind of lying but there they've gotten to the 553 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: point where they believe it. How many people are like 554 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: just legitimate behind what they're saying. I mean, there's a 555 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: there's a wide spectrum there, I think for for individuals 556 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: buying into the beliefs that they are uh aspounding. I 557 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: mean we see that in religion all the time. You know, 558 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: how many people are just die in the wool believers 559 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: who can say that they had a a personal you know, 560 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: supernatural experience. And how many people are you know, elsewhere 561 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: on the scale. Yeah, And it's interesting too because the 562 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, the researchers tend to focus a 563 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: little bit more on that, like are you lying or 564 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: are you not, rather than what's happening here? And the 565 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: research that we looked at for today is is more 566 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,239 Speaker 1: about what's happening here. Um, we have to mention this 567 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: one case because I briefly talked about it earlier. But 568 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: the most famous early cases Barney and Betty Hill, and 569 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: this was in nineteen sixty one. They were driving near 570 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: Indian Head, New Hampshire, when they saw a bright object 571 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: in the sky. It followed their car and they stopped 572 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: and they saw a disc shaped craft that had windows, 573 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: and the windows were filled with watching figures. They drove 574 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: away from this, but then they felt a tingling sensation 575 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: in their bodies. When they got home, they realized it 576 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: had actually taken them two hours to get there. Betty 577 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: afterwards kept having recurring nightmares. Both of them underwent hypnosis 578 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: therapy with a psychiatrist and this brought out their story 579 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: of an alleged abduction and examination and the experience that 580 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: this is interesting and maybe if we do trailer talk 581 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: we can try to find something on this. But there 582 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: was a nineteen seventy five made for TV movie called 583 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: the UFO Incident where James Earl Jones played Barney. I 584 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: was totally unaware of that. I mean, it's such an 585 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: interesting case because again it's it's the the early nineteen sixties, 586 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: and it's say it's a biracial couple. Uh. And and 587 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: just the fact that it's a male and a female, because, 588 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: as as we'll discuss later, for a long time, you 589 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: saw a far more female uh individuals claiming they had 590 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: an abduction experience. Meanwhile, you saw more male representations in 591 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: media because that's the kind of fiction that was predominant. 592 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, you go back to sort of K zero 593 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: and it's this uh, you know, this, this weird, this 594 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: this kind of strangely diverse sampling. It plays against the 595 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: stereotype that has been established for sure. Do you want 596 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: to talk about Fatima because this is actually close to 597 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: an episode that I've been proposing that we do for 598 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: a while now, but we have to find a place 599 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: to land on it. I've I've always wanted us to 600 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: talk about the Marian apparitions, and this is Fatima was 601 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: where one of those happened. Oh yeah, so this is 602 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: essentially a UFO encounter in terms of you know, unidentified 603 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: flying object, but in nineteen seventeen, before any of the 604 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 1: alien abduction stuff took off in what is what has 605 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: subsequently been explained as everything from stratospheric dust to mass hallucination. 606 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: You have thousands of people claiming to witness, um uh, 607 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: this paranormal experience in a predominantly Catholic town. They claim 608 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: to see Virgin Mary will arrive in quote an airplane 609 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: of light. So before the advent of Christianity, the same 610 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: sort of event would have likely been viewed through the 611 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: lens of you know, a pagan belief system. Um, But 612 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: how do you how do you think such an event 613 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: would be interpreted today? In a world flavored more you know, 614 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: by scientific dominance, uh, the decline of religion and mainstream 615 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: science fiction, you would think that it's some sort of 616 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: an alien being visiting our world. Like if I looked 617 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: up and saw that, I would That's really where my 618 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: mind would probably go first. Yeah, right, And also I'm 619 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: not as familiar with the fatimas areas I'd like to be. 620 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: But why would we automatically assume it's Mary unless even 621 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: if it appears as a female human being, death doesn't 622 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: necessarily strike the narrative chord. That's common with the two 623 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: of us at least. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you look 624 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: at the people in the place and the time and 625 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: you and you realize this was their predominant narrative for 626 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: supernatural occurrences, and though that is what they went to, 627 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: that's what their minds went to when they when they 628 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: observe this or experience this. Alright, on that note, we're 629 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, and when we come back, 630 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss, well, what's what's actually happening. We've 631 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: we've mentioned the idea that there are you know, their 632 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: hallucination and memory issues, sleep paralysis, etcetera. We're going to 633 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: get into those. We're going to discuss those explanations when 634 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: we get back. Than alright, we're back, So all right, 635 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: what's actually happening? We've pretty pretty much outlined, like the 636 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: cultural narrative of alien abductions, what's common for the cases. Obviously, 637 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: what we what we were speaking of there is in generalization. 638 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: You know, if there are specific cases, they could play 639 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: out in any variety of ways. But what do we 640 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: think is actually going on here? Like what what has 641 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: come about from our scientists sitting down and interviewing and 642 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: studying abductees. Yeah, this is where it gets. It gets 643 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: pretty fascinating because it's the the abductees that you can 644 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: you can study, because when it comes to just seeing 645 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: a UFO, there's not a lot you can do, Like 646 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: there's there's no physical signs of that. And we've already 647 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: discussed some of the problems that come into play when 648 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: you're talking about footage. Uh. In fact, that's that's one 649 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: of the arguments that that has been made that we 650 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: that that people are believing less in alien abduction and 651 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: UFOs because everyone has a camera phone now and you're 652 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: not seeing like the that the wealth of UFO sidings 653 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: that that you might expect if they were actually occurring. Well, 654 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: and also c g I is becoming something that people 655 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: can do in their home, you know, Like I think 656 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: about the episode that you and Joe did on on 657 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: Kenny Valley and the idea that like, we're about to 658 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,439 Speaker 1: hit a point technologically where we and replicate a real 659 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: human being but put them in a scenario where they 660 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: act out and say things that they didn't actually do 661 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: in real life, and then you apply that to something 662 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: like this. Who knows what you can believe in. It's 663 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: just the footage, but with the individual, you know, there 664 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: there we have that physical or that alleged physical proof 665 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: that can be evaluated to varying degrees, be it physical 666 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: or psychologically. Yeah, so there's all kinds of possibilities, from 667 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: hallucinations to lucid dreams which we've talked about extensively on 668 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: the show before, or just plain fantasies, right, and the 669 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: explanations range from sleep apnea to sleep paralysis, to hysteria 670 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 1: to psychosis. Now, sleep paralysis seems to be a really 671 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: interesting landing point for a lot of more empirically minded 672 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: researchers on alien abduction, and in fact, Robert has done 673 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: a fantastic sleep paralysis video that you can find on 674 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That was a 675 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: fun one. Yeah, and I believe we've talked about about 676 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: it on the show, but for two probably more in 677 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: terms of like incubi and succubi and whatnot. But but yeah, 678 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: I mean the basic idea is in your dream, you 679 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: could have a dream about being a kung fu fighter, 680 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: for instance, but your body is on lockdown, and that's 681 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: to keep you from kung fu fighting anyone who's in 682 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: bed with you or you know, falling out, destroying lamps. 683 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: That's sort of thing. That's the basic idea, But there 684 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: are very various um conditions that can interfere with that, 685 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: and one of those is sleep rouses. And in this scenario, 686 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: you wake up, but your body is still on lockdown. 687 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: And on top of that, it's also not just a 688 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: who I'm awake now, my body won't move, which is 689 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,919 Speaker 1: frightening enough, but you're also going to be in that 690 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 1: that another space between dream dreaming and being awake. You're 691 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: gonna be in that hypnopomic state where you're susceptible to 692 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: these hallucinations. I think a lot of us have probably 693 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 1: experienced this to some degree. You know where you're There 694 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: are two versions of this. One is descending into sleep 695 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: and one is a rising um. I've experienced the former, 696 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: where I'm like reading, if you're forcing yourself to read 697 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: a book and you you really should go to sleep, 698 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: you're trying to keep going, and then you start reading 699 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: things that aren't there though. That's one example of this 700 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: another space we're talking about. The other is if you've 701 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: ever woken up and been enough in the dream state 702 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: that you still sort of perceive the dreams in reality. Like, 703 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: the best example I have of this is I remember 704 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: being a kid and having a dream about having this 705 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: like robot toy that was just amazing and uh and 706 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: and then I woke up and at least for like 707 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: a split second, it was it was there in bed 708 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: with me, and then it wasn't. Now, there are a 709 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: few things as an adult that an individual, you know, 710 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: wants as much I think as a child wants a toy. 711 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: But so maybe that's one reason I've never experienced anything 712 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: like that since. But but you know, it's an example 713 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: where I was, I was somewhere in between dream and wakefulness. Yeah, 714 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: my wife actually used to get night terrors, and we 715 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: if we had anything hanging up in the bedroom that 716 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: had like an odd pattern on it, she would wake 717 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: up in the middle of the night and not realize 718 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: that she was still sort of in a dream state, 719 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: and she would think like spiders or something was moving 720 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: around on whatever it was, whether it's a poster or 721 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: a tapestry or whatever. Um So we've we've kind of 722 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: you know, gotten used to that now and try not 723 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: to hang up things like that that would invoke that state. 724 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, whereas like I've never had an experience like 725 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: that other than uh in this uh satanic panic episode 726 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: and in the Exorcism episode. I've mentioned my experience when 727 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: I was younger and I had snowblindness and I thought 728 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: there was a demon in the room with me, but 729 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: but nothing, nothing like that, whether you know, I didn't 730 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: know if I was dreaming or awake. Now, sleep Paralysis, 731 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna break it down here, but I 732 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: got to recommend this movie The Nightmare if people really 733 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: want to spend like a good hour and a half 734 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: with the concert up to sleep Paralysis. I believe it's 735 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: on Netflix right now, Yeah, I think so. And it's 736 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: done by the same people who did that great documentary 737 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: on The Shining Room two thirty seven. Uh So, definitely 738 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: check that out. It taps into the alien abduction narrative 739 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: stuff too, But this one is more This is at 740 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: more of a legitimate documentary, right because the thing about 741 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: the Shining documentary is that it's a documentary about a 742 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: fake conspiracy, like it basically a conspiracy theory that was 743 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,399 Speaker 1: made up and multi conspiracy theory that that just ended 744 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: up like having a sort of truthiness to it, like 745 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: you could see, like, oh I could I could see 746 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: Stanley Kubrick faking a moon landing because he was guilty 747 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: about blah blah blah blah. Yeah, exactly, whereas the nightmare 748 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: is more like they're actually interviewing people who have had 749 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis experience. They re enact some of the experience 750 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: they do. Yeah, so you're you wake up in the 751 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: state of sleep paralysis. Okay, and uh, and things are 752 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: not waking reality onto and and things could be you 753 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: could be essentially be experiencing a sexual hallucination that's colored 754 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: by your subconscient just and the exact nature of that 755 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: hallucination could depend, like your dreams, on just the nature 756 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: of your relief system, your cultural literacy, what you watched 757 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 1: on television the night before. Um, you know, what you're 758 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,399 Speaker 1: really into or what you're doing. I mean, just think 759 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 1: to your dreams, you know, and you can see the 760 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: the diversity that is in play. I can give you 761 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 1: a perfect example of this based on last night, right. Okay, 762 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: so the day we're recording this is the you know, 763 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: the television show at midnight. This is today's the last day. 764 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,800 Speaker 1: It's it's canceled, and this is gonna be the last episode. 765 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: And I read about that right before I went to 766 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: bed last night, and then I had a dream that 767 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: I was stuck with Chris Hardwick in a dorm room 768 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 1: and that we were packing up his dorm room because 769 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: he had to move out of there, and it just 770 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: kept going and going and going, and it was it 771 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: was one of those dreams, like we talked about this 772 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: in our Lucid Dream episode, where you can't quite get 773 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: out of it, like even if you wake up, go 774 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: to the bathroom and come back and fall back asleep again, 775 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: Like it kept going, and I was convinced that I 776 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: was stuck. I had to help him pack up all 777 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: this stuff and there was just like an infinity of 778 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: things in his room that no matter how long we packed, 779 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 1: it would never finish. Well's This is interesting because the 780 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: the dorm room narrative, the dorm room situation, I'm just 781 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: gonna guess and say, this is probably not one that 782 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: you draw from a lot. This is probably not something 783 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: you're using in your in your in your fiction or 784 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: your comics. You're you're not reading like college dorm literature. 785 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: But but the brain just latches onto it and it's like, 786 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: all right, this is what we're going with well, yeah, 787 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: I mean I know exactly where this came from. My 788 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: wife and I are planning to move in the next 789 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: couple of months, so I've already, like, for instance, I've 790 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: started going through things and packing them up and putting 791 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: him in boxes and thinking about like what do I 792 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: need to get rid of to make moving out easier? Right, 793 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: And then I just read that small piece of information 794 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: and it somehow got lodged into the back of my 795 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: subconscious and then manifested as Chris Hardwick in my dream. 796 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: All right, well, I'll come back to this frend just 797 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: a second, but I believe you have a little more 798 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: to say about sleep routs. Yeah, I just want to 799 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: give our audience a little more information here. It's often 800 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,280 Speaker 1: attributed as a catalyst event that leads to the formation 801 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: of false memories, and what we're talking about here is 802 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: the basics. It's a non pathological phenomenon that occurs because 803 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: of a temporary discordance in rapid eye movement sleep, and 804 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: it causes sensory input to be blocked and motor output 805 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: to be inhibited. So subsequently, a sufferer of this is 806 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: experiencing both internal dream stimuli and external sensory stimuli. Again, 807 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: you say like, I've never heard of this, This sounds ridiculous, right, Well, actually, 808 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the population has had at least one 809 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: instance of this in their life. Five percent of the 810 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: population experience vivid, visual, auditory, and tactile hallucinations, and it 811 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: should be made clear too that these are without drugs 812 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: or alcohol. In relation to this, the Japanese actually have 813 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: a term for this. It's so common called kanishi bari 814 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: and it is represented as a devil stepping on a 815 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: sleeper's chest, while the Chinese call it gui yah or 816 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: ghost pressure. I want to see a movie called ghost pressure. Uh. 817 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: And then I got to come back to Susan Clancy. 818 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: As I mentioned, a lot of her research related to 819 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: alien abduction really kept popping up all over the place 820 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: for this episode. She's one of the main researchers on 821 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis as an explanation for alien abductions, and she 822 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: categorizes it into three different groups based on qualities. The 823 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: first one is called intruder sleep paralysis, and this is 824 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 1: when you have hallucinations that include the sense of a 825 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: threatening presence in the room as well as strange noises, footsteps, 826 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: voices in the physical sensation of somebody touching you. Then 827 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: there's the incubus sleep paralysis, which leads back to you 828 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: mentioned we've we've talked about it before. This includes hallucinations 829 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 1: of breathing difficulty as well as a sensation of impending 830 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,080 Speaker 1: death or bodily harm. So that's your ghost pressure are 831 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,839 Speaker 1: essentially right, something's pushing down on you and then down 832 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,840 Speaker 1: on you. And then the last one is vestibular motor 833 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, and this manifests as sensations of movements such 834 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,359 Speaker 1: as falling or accelerating upward out of bed. I think 835 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: a lot of us have experienced that, right, or at 836 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: least in my case, it's the one where you're like 837 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 1: walking down uh stairs in a dream and then all 838 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: of a sudden the stairs give out from underneath you. Yeah, 839 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: or slipping. I've slipped and fallen in dream states and 840 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: woken up now. Now, the first two of these, intruder 841 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: and incubus are heavily implicated in alien abduction phenomena. But 842 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: in a twenty oh five study McNally, who's like a 843 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: partner of Clancys and Clancy, they interviewed ten abductees and 844 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: they describe their experiences of alien abduction. In terms of 845 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, it all lined up. All the elements reported 846 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: were consistent with these kind of hallucinations, but they were 847 00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: only recovered by the individual following hypnotherapy. And of course, 848 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: in all this is just important to remember that when 849 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: you're talking about memory, you're talking about something that is notable. 850 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,320 Speaker 1: Every time you recall a memory, it's susceptible to change. 851 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: That's super important to remember. So and then, and that 852 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: also means I think I've actually pointed this out. This 853 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,720 Speaker 1: was on the there's a line on the television series 854 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: The Expanse where they've mentioned that the memories that are 855 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: the most important to you're the ones that you can 856 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: trust the least because you've drawn them out so much 857 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 1: and you've you've manipulated them. So you can imagine the 858 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,880 Speaker 1: situation with a life changing uh event, like an alien 859 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,879 Speaker 1: abduction scenario, like this is a memory that is even 860 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: more untrustworthy because you keep touching it, you keep it's 861 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,239 Speaker 1: like a lump of clay. If you've taken it out, 862 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: reforming it and then putting it away exactly dries up 863 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,719 Speaker 1: a little. If you're going to and you might be 864 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: letting other people touch it as well and influence it. 865 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: So you've got to take that into case. Now, one interesting, uh, 866 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: I think example of the two of the skeptical approach 867 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: to all of this is um the experience of Michael Schermer. Now, 868 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with Michael Schermer, you should seek 869 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: him out on social media. He has He's very active there. Uh. 870 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: He is always sharing his opinions on a number of 871 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: different scientific and and uh and of course you know, 872 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: criticizing pseudo scientific endeavors. He's the the editor of the 873 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: of Skeptic magazine. UH. So he's he's been active for 874 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 1: a number of years in the skeptic community. But he 875 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: himself experienced an alien abduction, or rather what happened is 876 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: he collapsed from sleep deprivation and exhaustion following an eighty 877 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: three hour bike ride uh in a transcontinental race, and 878 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,359 Speaker 1: as Shermer's support team rushed over to him to tend 879 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: to him, uh, Shermer saw them through the filter of 880 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: awaking dream and he perceived them as aliens from a 881 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties television series. Yeah, this is very much in 882 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: the line of that Jose's Chunk from Outer Space episode. Uh. 883 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: Their their interview young an abductee, and in multiple different 884 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,960 Speaker 1: scenarios during the interviews she sees them. She either sees 885 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: them as aliens, or she sees them as men in black, 886 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,479 Speaker 1: or she sees them as soldiers in the army. Right, 887 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 1: So there's different lenses that the perception is coming through. Yeah, 888 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,839 Speaker 1: But in Sherman's case, I think one of the cool 889 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,600 Speaker 1: things is like he's I've never seen him indicate like, yeah, 890 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: I was super into that ninety sixties TV show, Like 891 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,760 Speaker 1: it's just it's It's as if the brain just casts 892 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: about for some one of these lenses something that will 893 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: make sense of what's happening, and suddenly there it is. 894 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,799 Speaker 1: And then a lot of it falls to what you 895 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: do with it afterwards. Like Shermer approach it from a 896 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: skeptical point of view, had was in the position to 897 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: then say, oh, well, this is what was happening. Obviously 898 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: I wasn't in, you know, visited by aliens. He also, 899 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: of course had the experience of being able to talk 900 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: to the team who came in and uh and attended 901 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: to him like you know, he knew straight up this 902 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,320 Speaker 1: was not an alien abduction, and he was able to 903 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: work from that point on in his life. But with 904 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 1: someone else might not have the same tools, the same 905 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: opportun tunities, and they're left to pursue a different route 906 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 1: in understanding what happened, right, Yeah, And that's the important part. 907 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 1: Two is that, like, we need to be able to 908 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: distinguish memories, and then what's the difference between false memories 909 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,399 Speaker 1: or recovered memories? Because these terms get thrown around a lot, right, 910 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: And for him, it's very easy for him to say, oh, 911 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,399 Speaker 1: that was a false memory because there were other people 912 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,360 Speaker 1: there with me, right, and they helped to clarify. But 913 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 1: then the question is, can can a false memory and 914 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: a recovered memory be the same thing? And it seems 915 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: like the answer should be no. Specifically, researchers are interested 916 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: in whether recovered memories are authentic, right, and if they're not, 917 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: is that because the people who are relating them are lying, 918 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,960 Speaker 1: or is it because this is a manifestation of an 919 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: involuntary mechanism that we don't have any control over. You know, 920 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: the latter seems to be more probable based on evidence. 921 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: So the discussion tends to focus on the idea of 922 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: what we're calling false memories here. Yeah, false memories is 923 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: a fascinating area unto itself and one I think one 924 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,760 Speaker 1: of the important things to remember about false memories versus 925 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,319 Speaker 1: authentic memories is to first of all, get into the 926 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,600 Speaker 1: area we realize memories are not a video recording and 927 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: and ar again, every time we draw them out, we 928 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: manipulate them a little bit. So memory this is why 929 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: you have such a problem with eyewitness testimony and in 930 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,800 Speaker 1: in so many criminal trials. So when you when you 931 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,440 Speaker 1: say and also you have to break down their different 932 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: there we remember things in different ways. Memory work is 933 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,920 Speaker 1: more complex than just this sort of videotape kind of 934 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: metaphor that we often draw upon. There's an excellent book 935 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,879 Speaker 1: on this topic titled The Seven Sins of Memory, How 936 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: the Mind Forgets and Remembers by Daniel Shackter, highly recommended. 937 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,920 Speaker 1: But he breaks it down into a few different categories, 938 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, those seven sins. There's transience, which is the 939 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,360 Speaker 1: weakening or loss of memory over time. So you know 940 00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: this is just the idea of someone's older and they 941 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,840 Speaker 1: have their memory's have faded. There's absent mindedness. So this 942 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: just see us down to attention in memory. You weren't 943 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: actually that attentive to a series of events, and then 944 00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,360 Speaker 1: afterwards your brain is kind of filling in the the details. 945 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 1: Like one of the examples of this is September eleven, 946 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 1: people who remember what they had for for breakfast and 947 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,360 Speaker 1: what they were wearing, etcetera. And actual investigations of this 948 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 1: have turned out that that's often not the case. You 949 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,160 Speaker 1: don't actually remember all that stuff, but your brain is 950 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: kind of working in a way where it's like, hey, 951 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: you just focus on surviving and we'll just make up 952 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,320 Speaker 1: all the details for what you ate for lunch. Um, 953 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 1: there's blocking, So these are failed attempts to recall tidbits 954 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,600 Speaker 1: of memory of face and name. There's misattribution. This is 955 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 1: when we recall an authentic memory, but aspects of it 956 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,759 Speaker 1: are misattributed. And this could include a potential scenario, say 957 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,799 Speaker 1: where one is dealing with a an actual traumatic experience, 958 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: maybe an actual case of abuse or even sexual abuse, 959 00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: but then you end up your recalling it wrapped up 960 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,160 Speaker 1: in some sort of fantastic form or there is I 961 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,839 Speaker 1: believe there's one account that the chapter himself referred to 962 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 1: where an individual was an assaulted in a room and 963 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,239 Speaker 1: there was somebody on the television screen and she identified 964 00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 1: her attacker as the individual on the television screen. Uh, 965 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: just because that's how the brain stitched it together, That's 966 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: how the memory is formed. There's of course suggestibility power 967 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: suggestion that of course is a huge factor in our 968 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: satanic panic episode, where if you have someone who is 969 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 1: going to make heavy suggestions that some sort of scenario 970 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,000 Speaker 1: took place, then that can influence your memory of what happened. 971 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,040 Speaker 1: And then there's bias as well, just the power of 972 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: bias or racial bias coming into play, and then persistence. 973 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: So this is a the failure of the memory system 974 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 1: involves the unwanted recall of information that is disturbing. So 975 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 1: this just I think I just present all this to 976 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,359 Speaker 1: to to to drive home that memory is this, uh, 977 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,960 Speaker 1: is this complex system with multiple moving parts, and all 978 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: of those parts can contribute to the creation of false memories. 979 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,359 Speaker 1: And then there's this whole additional area of of of 980 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,839 Speaker 1: describing what's happening in the brain when one is having 981 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:16,279 Speaker 1: a paranormal experience. UH. Neuroscientist Michael Persenger points the finger 982 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,320 Speaker 1: to the brains temporal lobe. Here seizures can produce feelings 983 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,319 Speaker 1: of deja vu. Persenger believes that the temporal lobe anomalies 984 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: when combined with certain cultural experiences such as belief in 985 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:33,320 Speaker 1: angels or aliens, can mislabel imagined experiences as actual events. 986 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,719 Speaker 1: So uh so, yeah, we're getting also getting into not 987 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: only like sort of the misfiring of memory systems, with 988 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,720 Speaker 1: the misfiring of other parts of the brains as well, 989 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,560 Speaker 1: but even while without the aid of neurological misfiring. Again, 990 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,280 Speaker 1: human memory is complex, it's fallible. Every day we encounter 991 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 1: new experiences and then craft that experience into an imperfect narrative. 992 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,280 Speaker 1: We convince ourselves that we can, you know, ultimately convince 993 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,279 Speaker 1: ourselves nearly anything, especially when it fulfills a need, such 994 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:04,680 Speaker 1: as explaining what happened. Yeah, and even with explanations like 995 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: our realizations that memory is imperfect or the thought that oh, 996 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: something's going on here in the actual organ of the brain, 997 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,120 Speaker 1: some people just assume, well, anybody with an alien abduction story, 998 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,799 Speaker 1: they must be crazy, right, that's got to be what's 999 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,040 Speaker 1: going on. In fact, that the the gag in Jose 1000 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,960 Speaker 1: Chung's is that every single person they talked to about 1001 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: it starts off by saying, well, this is gonna sound crazy, 1002 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: but dot dot dot Now, the study by Clancy and 1003 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,839 Speaker 1: McNally that I mentioned earlier, it actually showed that the 1004 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 1: mental health of abductees doesn't differ dramatically from the general population. 1005 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,560 Speaker 1: They tested ten abductees. Four of them didn't qualify for 1006 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,799 Speaker 1: a single diagnosis in the d s M four. The 1007 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,480 Speaker 1: others had phobias that are pretty common. They were scared 1008 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 1: of insects, They had anxiety disorders, alcoholism, bipolar disorder, maybe 1009 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: one of them had PTSD, and then panic disorder. Okay, 1010 00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,520 Speaker 1: but these are, you know, fairly common things. I think 1011 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,759 Speaker 1: if you'd sample like a room full of your coworkers, 1012 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:13,719 Speaker 1: those would be common. But none of them qualified for schizophrenia. 1013 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,600 Speaker 1: In fact, their mean depression and anxiety scores were well 1014 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,359 Speaker 1: with the normal limits, and the only place where they 1015 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,080 Speaker 1: differed from the general population was primarily in three areas 1016 00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,640 Speaker 1: that they scored higher in. And these are really interesting. 1017 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 1: First is dissociative experiences, so they measured this with a scale. 1018 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: They This basically looks at the mind's ability to tap 1019 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:40,279 Speaker 1: into alterations of consciousness, so for instance, h zoning out 1020 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,400 Speaker 1: when you're driving, or not being able to recognize your 1021 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 1: own reflection when you're looking in a in a mirror. Yeah. 1022 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,279 Speaker 1: The second one of these was the absorption scale, and 1023 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 1: that looked at an individual's proneness to being absorbed in 1024 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:57,680 Speaker 1: imagery experiences. Imaginary experiences for instance, reading a novel or 1025 00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,400 Speaker 1: watching a movie right like the the the level that 1026 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,640 Speaker 1: you let yourself be enthralled by the narrative. And then 1027 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:10,080 Speaker 1: the magical ideation scale that assesses the individual's beliefs in 1028 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,839 Speaker 1: paranormal phenomena such as ghosts, aliens, psychic powers, in the 1029 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,880 Speaker 1: existence of magic. Now I read about these three scales 1030 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:18,839 Speaker 1: and my first thought was, you, Joe and I need 1031 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:20,840 Speaker 1: to take these tests. We need to get them to 1032 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,840 Speaker 1: send those tests here and then we should take them. 1033 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: That seems like it would be a great Facebook live event. Likewise, 1034 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,080 Speaker 1: researchers Hugh and Rogers did another study in two thousand 1035 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 1: and eight and they compared twenty six alien abductees with 1036 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 1: twenty six non abductees, and they use scales to measure 1037 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,719 Speaker 1: their fantasy prone nous and their emotional intelligence, and they 1038 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,480 Speaker 1: found there was no significant difference between the abductees and 1039 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,399 Speaker 1: the non abductees in their self reporting. Now, again, this 1040 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,759 Speaker 1: led to the conclusion that abductees and the general population 1041 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,960 Speaker 1: really aren't all that different. Psychologically, the differences seem to 1042 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,680 Speaker 1: be more on like kind of an individual level than 1043 00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,320 Speaker 1: a cheological level. The abductees tend to be more interested 1044 00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 1: in UFOs or aliens before they actually have this experience. Likewise, 1045 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,080 Speaker 1: they tend to seek a therapist who is also interested 1046 00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: in that subject matter. And there does seem to be 1047 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: a relationship between abductees and dissociation, absorption, and magical ideation. 1048 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 1: You know that this lines up a lot with what 1049 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,280 Speaker 1: with actually what Carl Young said, because he was actually 1050 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:32,600 Speaker 1: asked about UFOs and whatnot an interview, and he said, quote, 1051 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,400 Speaker 1: in our world, miracles do not happen anymore, and we 1052 00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: feel that something simply must happen which will provide an 1053 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,520 Speaker 1: answer or show the way out. So now these UFOs 1054 00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: are appearing in the sky. And in the late nineteen nineties, 1055 00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:50,400 Speaker 1: psychologists Roy F. Bombastmeister and Leonard S. Newman they further 1056 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,520 Speaker 1: this viewpoint by arguing that abduction encounters are essentially subconscious 1057 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 1: attempts to rid one's self of self awareness through massochistic fantasy, 1058 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:04,560 Speaker 1: and in lieu of mystic conviction, our minds staff these 1059 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 1: fantasies with little gray men. Now, of course, our cultural 1060 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 1: frame of reference continually changes. Some observers have have even 1061 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,480 Speaker 1: equated the recent declining UFO sidings with the rise of 1062 00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: the Internet. Uh. You know. For instance, a cultural critic 1063 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,400 Speaker 1: ZOD and sod are suggested, instead of projecting our hopes 1064 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,480 Speaker 1: and peers into space, we're projecting them into cyberspace. I 1065 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,400 Speaker 1: have to say, this makes me wonder. So if you 1066 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,440 Speaker 1: go with this argument that people are experiencing alien abductions 1067 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,960 Speaker 1: less and they're reporting them less, which again is arguable, 1068 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,480 Speaker 1: why are we not seeing more people explaining or or 1069 00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:45,440 Speaker 1: draping their paranormal experiences in within the idea that we're 1070 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,360 Speaker 1: potentially living within a computer simulation. That that theory, Like, 1071 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,320 Speaker 1: maybe that theory just hasn't it hasn't exploded in in 1072 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:58,000 Speaker 1: the mainstream. Yeah, like I can. I could easily imagine 1073 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: a scenario where that becomes the new near heard if 1074 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,280 Speaker 1: if it picks up anough steam, someone's like, hey, I 1075 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,920 Speaker 1: had this experience, Uh, and I clicked out of our 1076 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,200 Speaker 1: reality and I was in the real reality for a 1077 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:13,080 Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, essentially the matrix scenerio so related. I 1078 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,240 Speaker 1: have a couple of notes here about that Newman and 1079 00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:19,800 Speaker 1: Boo Meister study. Uh, they basically created a model for 1080 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:25,400 Speaker 1: explaining this, and they called it cognitive motivational hypothesis, and 1081 00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:30,080 Speaker 1: this maintained that people who claim alien abduction experiences are 1082 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,360 Speaker 1: looking for a narrative that will provide us an escape 1083 00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:37,280 Speaker 1: from ourselves, and that it represents a massochistic wish to 1084 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:42,800 Speaker 1: experience pain, powerlessness, and humiliation on a grand cosmic level. 1085 00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:48,200 Speaker 1: Baumeister himself actually said, the abductees are masochists who unconsciously 1086 00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:52,560 Speaker 1: want to relinquish control of their lives. And I immediately 1087 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 1: thought that this is like, uh, cosmic horror as some 1088 00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:00,400 Speaker 1: kind of existentialism, right, Like it's like I want there 1089 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,680 Speaker 1: to be something so big and beyond my understanding that 1090 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,960 Speaker 1: that can make my existence makes sense. Well, you know, 1091 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,680 Speaker 1: we'll probably we're gonna do a part two for this episode, 1092 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,160 Speaker 1: and we'll probably we're gonna get into more of the 1093 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,800 Speaker 1: cultural stuff there. But you know, one one thing that 1094 01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,160 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss, and that is some of the demographics, 1095 01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,840 Speaker 1: like the idea that that for the long despite the 1096 01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: original demographics of the sort of the the case zero 1097 01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:27,160 Speaker 1: of alien abduction, you saw mostly white American kind of 1098 01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:32,320 Speaker 1: middle class males experiencing these things, and there's this this 1099 01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,560 Speaker 1: idea like these these might have been some of the 1100 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,160 Speaker 1: key individuals who were we're pining for this release that 1101 01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,480 Speaker 1: they're kind of in this situation where like, here you go, 1102 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,000 Speaker 1: it's the it's the nineteen eighties, it's the American dream. 1103 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,439 Speaker 1: Go nothing stopping you just go out there, work hard 1104 01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:49,080 Speaker 1: and build your life. And so there's this there's this 1105 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:52,360 Speaker 1: kind of this uh, this this pressure then on that 1106 01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:57,640 Speaker 1: individual to to you know, to fulfill this American dream. 1107 01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,720 Speaker 1: And then here's this, there's this out you know, this 1108 01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,440 Speaker 1: is idea that like I can't achieve it because this 1109 01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,520 Speaker 1: happened to me. It's kind of like if like the 1110 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,360 Speaker 1: fifth or sixth season of Madmen was Don Draper got 1111 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,720 Speaker 1: abducted by aliens, that would have been a great sequence 1112 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,240 Speaker 1: or maybe I would have gotten for that. Maybe they'll 1113 01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,200 Speaker 1: do an extra episode where that that takes place. Um, 1114 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,160 Speaker 1: it is important, though, Like you're right, there's this argument 1115 01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,919 Speaker 1: going around that UFO sightings have gone away, right, and 1116 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,840 Speaker 1: that there's another argument that says, no, they haven't gone away, 1117 01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,040 Speaker 1: but that online forums have simply allowed people just an 1118 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:32,800 Speaker 1: accessible inside group where they can share their stories yeah. 1119 01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, imagine if you had an experience like this, 1120 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,400 Speaker 1: or you felt you had an experience like this, where 1121 01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,360 Speaker 1: would you go to? Now? Whereas someone ten and twenty 1122 01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:44,800 Speaker 1: years ago might have run to the nightly news or 1123 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,320 Speaker 1: caught up the newspaper sting. Now a our media is changing. 1124 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:50,920 Speaker 1: You tweet it, or you go to Reddit and you 1125 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:54,480 Speaker 1: look up the alien abduction board. I visited that board 1126 01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,080 Speaker 1: just just yesterday out of research for this episode, and 1127 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,480 Speaker 1: there people talking about alien abduction, uh and and talking 1128 01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,160 Speaker 1: about their experiences. Those are the places you're gonna go to. 1129 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,680 Speaker 1: And then when you go to these places, these online 1130 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,080 Speaker 1: communities to discuss it, you're kind of gonna gonna be 1131 01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,760 Speaker 1: in the same sort of echo chambers that everyone is 1132 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,400 Speaker 1: in these days. Uh, you know, cut away in their 1133 01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,920 Speaker 1: own little social or socio political realm, their own cultural realm, 1134 01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,280 Speaker 1: and then you know, talking occasionally talking about all the 1135 01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:28,320 Speaker 1: crazy stuff that other individuals are doing outside of your bubble. Alright, 1136 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,640 Speaker 1: So really in all this we come back again too, 1137 01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,880 Speaker 1: the sock puppet. You know, we we've we've talked in 1138 01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:38,480 Speaker 1: broad strokes about all the various um psychological, neuroscientific events 1139 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,640 Speaker 1: that could be occurring. And then you know how we're 1140 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,280 Speaker 1: manipulating memory. But but then how we end up having 1141 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,720 Speaker 1: to stitch that sock puppet together, that that explanation, that 1142 01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,920 Speaker 1: sort of flavoring, that narrative that describes and fills in 1143 01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,160 Speaker 1: the details of this paranormal experience. Where do we get 1144 01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,720 Speaker 1: that from? And what does it say about the twentieth century. 1145 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,400 Speaker 1: We're gonna get into that the next episode. So this 1146 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,240 Speaker 1: episode published on a Tuesday, the next episode publishes on Thursday. 1147 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,200 Speaker 1: I'll make sure there's a there's a link to the 1148 01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,680 Speaker 1: next episode on the landing page for this episode once 1149 01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 1: it publishes. Yeah, and if you're wondering, sometimes people hear 1150 01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,600 Speaker 1: us say that the landing page and they don't quite 1151 01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,600 Speaker 1: know what we mean. We're talking about stuff to Blow 1152 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,200 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's where all this stuff lives. 1153 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,360 Speaker 1: You might be subscribing to the show through iTunes or 1154 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,720 Speaker 1: Google Player, Spotify or whatever, but if you go to 1155 01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:26,600 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, it's got the 1156 01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,280 Speaker 1: MP three downloads for all the episodes right there, but 1157 01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,840 Speaker 1: also our notes about things, and and then obviously ways 1158 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,080 Speaker 1: that you can get in touch with us through social media. 1159 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,240 Speaker 1: Right so, we're on Facebook, we're on Twitter, we're on Tumbler, 1160 01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,680 Speaker 1: we're on Instagram, and then we have just added a 1161 01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:46,320 Speaker 1: new method that we're gonna only tell you about here people. 1162 01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,800 Speaker 1: This is what we're calling the Discussion Module, and it 1163 01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,440 Speaker 1: exists on Facebook. We have so many people on our 1164 01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Facebook page that we found that the interactions there aren't 1165 01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,600 Speaker 1: generally with podcast listeners. It's with people who just kind 1166 01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 1: of stump across the page. So we've made this discussion 1167 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,080 Speaker 1: group so we can actually all talk together on a 1168 01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,200 Speaker 1: common basis about the things that the show is about 1169 01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,400 Speaker 1: and new episodes, and lots of people are posting in there, 1170 01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: either introducing themselves or showing us articles that we haven't 1171 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,360 Speaker 1: seen yet about cool things that we can talk about 1172 01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,720 Speaker 1: in the future. Yeah, yeah, so check it out. You 1173 01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,000 Speaker 1: can find a link for it on the stuff to 1174 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,760 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind Facebook page. And hey, if you want 1175 01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:23,760 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us the old fashioned way, 1176 01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,520 Speaker 1: you can shoot us an email at blow the Mind 1177 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:38,960 Speaker 1: and how Stuff Works dot com for more on this 1178 01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,640 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works 1179 01:04:41,680 --> 01:05:02,520 Speaker 1: dot Com. I have sat back by a p